Well.., Sannyasnews bloggers.
What do you make of this. Amrito talking within the past few months about meditation and modern medical research, etc. Using his ‘real’ name, etc. Looks a lot older than we SN’s chaps remember him. A holistic approach to body and mind… … . sounds a lot like other English public schoolboys who speak publicly.
Not a little like Terence Stamp today (who was briefly a sannyasin in the seventies), when he speaks outside an acting role - and the same self confidence based on nothing.
Meditation :
I hope Osho Foundation Inernational won’t try to copyright and trademark the concept.
Why would you care?
You don’t meditate or have any interest in meditation.
Terence Stamp, he played the Russian prince in the film ‘Meetings with Remarkable Men’.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qftYyjV9tsk
Doctor looks all the more intense now; good to see him.
Kavita,
If interested in Gurdjieff you may find this Russian movie about him interesting. It has sub-titles. Seems to know a little about the time in the seminary which he was a fellow pupil with Stalin! And the time that Hitler went to a public meeting of his, incognito!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nljcpS62cg
Thank you, Parmartha, that sounds interesting.
Probably that was the book, ‘Psychological Commentaries on the Teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky’, vols.1 to 6, by Maurice Nicoll, mentioned at 40.50 in the video. We (my bf & me) had borrowed those in June of 1994 from Swami Atma Anand, a J.Krishnamurti follower before being initiated into Sannyas, who worked in the Audio dept. in Omar Khyyyam in the Pune commune, very interesting man himself .
If anyone interested, here is a link:
http://www.gurdjieffwork.com/site/index.asp?page=107379
The vid held my attention for approximately three minutes. I imagine the film would hold appeal for those new to meditation and on that level serves its purpose very well. It is pretty well established that meditation is good for many things, including health, so nothing much new there.
What I find interesting that this kind of meditation is all about feeling and functioning better etc. Nothing wrong in that. Osho actively promoted this kind of meditation. He also talked about another kind of meditation, which might not make you feel so good, because it has to do with the death of separate self. Not such an easy to package and sell commodity.
Very good point, Lokesh.
Still, Osho himself used various ploys to attract people, knowing that a few would stay the course and eventually be ready to ‘die’ (as it were). (I’m not one of that august company, yet, btw).
So perhaps that’s what ‘Dr. Andrews’ is up to.
Welcome back, Satyadeva!
Essentially, ‘sugaring the pill’ – which amounts to the existential lie that everything (usually translated as health and well-being, love life, work – and, of course, money) is going to be all right, life’s always going to be just fine, if you can only learn to ‘meditate’.
SD, are you saying Doctor is giving the sugar pill to pre-born agains?!
Not sure that John Andrews is his ‘real’ name, SD. For a long time he was known as George Meredith. Also, his full sannyas name is Swami Prem Amrito. He was, of course, called Devaraj earlier in his sannyas career. I think it was changed around 1986, but not fully sure.
Actually, SD, can’t really understand why he uses this John Andrews, MD, lark in this video. He could just speak as a sannyasin, and call himself Prem Amrito.
Big P, you refer to “the same (public school) self-confidence based on nothing”.
It`s what you need if you`re running an empire!
The Americans are the market leaders in that these days, but there`s still a few Brits that can pull it off.
I remember a story from the 1930s British Raj days, about a certain Colonel Edmund Wyldebore-Smythe, I think it was. The colonel was at a tennis party in `Cawnpore` or somewhere like that, where he was local commander.
The sound of gunfire was heard in the distance and the news quickly arrived that a Hindu-Muslim riot had broken out in the town.
Wyldebore-Smythe, who was enjoying a game of mixed doubles, irritatedly handed his racquet to his bearer and hurriedly downed the last of his gin and tonic, mumbling “bloody fakirs” and rushed towards his car, pulling on his uniform as he went.
The driver headed directly for the riot and it was only shortly before arriving at the scene that Wyldebore-Smythe realised that in the dash he had forgotten to put on his trousers.
This is where his absurd self-confidence came in handy: Standing up straight in the back of his car dressed in his military jacket but wearing no trousers, he directed the driver to drive straight between the two fighting factions who were shooting at each other. Through the gunfire and the dust, his voice, which I imagine must have sounded a lot like that of Doctor Andrews or Terence Stamp (he may even have been related or at least gone to the same school) boomed: “Cease fire! Cease fire!”
The astonished combatants were completely stunned by the sight and ceased hostilities immediately.
Wyldebore-Smythe ordered the driver to head home where he was just in time for the last set and a damn`stiff brandy.
Entertaining story, Yogi.
As far as personal growth is concerned I have noticed that English public school egotistical and complete self-assurance is actually a handicap in those stakes. Amrito, for example, did only three Pune 1 groups, before he got bored and saw that by using his profession he could get into the inner circle of those physically close to Osho. So where is the evidence for his real ‘search’?
Yes, Yogi, but you got the epoch wrong:
The Siege of Cawnpore was a key episode in the Indian rebellion of 1857; where did you get this 1930s from?!
Big P,
It wasn`t the siege of Cawnpore.
It was just a common-or-garden Hindu/Muslim riot in the later days of the Raj. I made up the names and places as I couldn’t remember them.
I missed out the end of the story too, which was that once the flabbergasted combatants had recovered from seeing a sahib in his chuddies,they carried on fighting.
Where did that story come from? I had to think.
‘Plain tales from the Raj’, by Charles Allen, I believe.
Years since I read it, but that story stuck in my mind along with the song: ‘Doollally sahib’, altho` I can`t remember the words now.
Thanks, Yogi.
Surely, as a doctor he should know – drinking daily is bad for you! And frankly will take you further away from meditation…Oh well, he is too busy teaching busy people….
Hi Chetna,
I wouldn`t recommend daily drinking as a health regime myself.
Altho`, that said, I must say that my dad is well into his 90s and has a glass of red wine every day.
Out of curiosity, I would be interested to know what evidence you have that the doctor is an everyday drinker?
Frank,
She probably means the ancient art of Shivambu Kalpa or taking of the piss.
Apparently, when done properly, it leads to many health benefits, including laughter, serendipity, temporary loss of boundaries, inclusiveness, commune building, pointing fingers at others dressed in red robes and laughing out loud, ringing door bells on meditation centres, then running off and shouting, “Anyone in?”, exclaiming “Free Tibet with every packet of Rinpoche-Eyewash”, and looking for the unknown without finding it.
I don’t know if there’s any evidence of his drinking, Frank.
Perhaps , if he is hard-drinking, he’s trying to live like Zorba the Greek.
If one knows the life behind the public mask of Osho meditators, including the doctor, dentist, cleaner, gardener, massager, driver, washerman, cook etc. of the great seer, one will understand how fragmented their public talk is about mysticism and meditation.
These are the people who have put down the complete life concept of Osho and hold meditation like holy Koran to play superior.
In my eyes and heart, Osho is like the founder of KFC. The combination of 11 Secret Herbs and Spices makes the Chicken different than all others. This lies in the very foundation of their global success.
Inheritors of Osho’s work tried to be smarter than the master.
No wonder, neither public at large nor the cosmic forces are supporting their expansion.
Shantam, you say:
“In my eyes and heart, Osho is like the founder of KFC.”
And in this wonderful worldview, presumably the disciples are cloned battery chickens who end up with their heads shoved up their own ass for stuffing?
It makes a lot of sense.
Shantam, perhaps you’d care to elaborate as to what exactly Osho’s complete concept of life represents to you. I am sure you could write a book about it. Instead of that, how about putting it in a nutshell?
Sorry SN, and SN bloggers, the here shown pic and then the vid, where I see and hear the Doctor, very well to be recognized (and digitally worked at (?), I presume, after 25 years having not seen or heard him speak personally).
The standing position (pic SN chose for the string) gave the impression of squeaky clean performance (thank you, Lokesh) like standing before and also behind armoured glass, showing his beautiful palms up and then delivering a scientific speech about meditation.
Reminding me more of a scientology church contemporary scientist delivering sermon about issues and offering seminars to join, to make the whole world clean and pure.
I´d prefer the old ´Orange Book’ where on the back the Master is to be seen with a Veena, that miraculous old musical instrument, and included in the book His poetical ways of invitations, to get out of the mind and to celebrate that.
Kind of grateful, I followed like Alice in Wonderland here Kavita´s input response about the actor mentioned, and followed another (pretty new one and seemingly very good and realistic one) of the numerous reports about the work and life contributions of Gurdijeff and His school.
Ended up with a report about the project ‘The Adjustment Team’ (a science fiction story) which used for screenplay (2011) the movie ‘The Adjustment Bureau’.
Alice in Wonderland of and in the Internet…and me…
Looked into your creative associative sharings and contributions again and pretty much later also made it to see the vid´installed here itself as a whole.
This Sunday morning, Alice-in-me has been strolling, capturing views of the Ice Bucket Challenges of last year´s (2014) global happenings as charity models, first for neurological disease, but later, the global wave took quite other ways before it ended in the ocean of many other shows of unconciousnesses to vanish and make space probably for many others of these ´challenges’. Lots of work for other “Adjustment Bureaus”.
The Beauty of Meditation is, in my eyes, the sheer luxury to invite into realms and ´space´ (if one can even say the latter), where the word ´useful´ and what´s paying or selling even, don´t grasp, even though miraculous effects on individuals or groups of individuals practising might be felt all over the globe.
Adjustement without any bureau happening. Hallelujah!
The here shown ´vid´ turned out for me like another form of Ice Bucket Challenge, also when I remember some of those vids about Arun and his followers or comparable stuff; when looking at those I felt really uncomfortable and kind of sad too.
Yesterday, seeing the recently created feature about Gurdijeff, just trying to make us more familiar with His enormous contribution to mankind, one of His (4) living siblings (a daughter in New York said that most of the stuff on the journalistic market about this Human is just rubbish.
And she also talked about Solitaers (MOD: MEANING?) in that kind of diamond-less diamond´s affairs.
My heart answered, when strolling like Alice in these truly pathless paths of the Big Brain Internet, but I don´t know, that´s for sure.
I take and took as Alice in Wonderland the here given string text and digitally designed vid and pic as a little Ice Bucket Challenge, and some Adjustment move of a wave. Of – maybe? – human Intelligence of the Heart working.
Me – being a NOT indifferent watcher on no-hills, just sharing a little bit about the nooks and corners to look at, and where this did lead me, knowing Nothing, but nonetheless enjoying the one or the other ride.
And enjoying your company on the virtual lane and your sharings to this thread, as I am not an isolated island in the vast ocean of conciousnesses, although it sometimes seems so for me and for others too (as I am able to acknowledge).
Sunday morning,
Crispy, clear Sky here,
Trees and bushes and especially the hedges
I can see in full meditation…
Simply existing
Little winds coming up, now and then
and it all bows down to the winds then
sometimes even making music
Then Silence again.
My words are useless as anything (the Moderators, Administrators, Adjustment teams will have hands on it). (MOD: NOT SO, MADHU)
But maybe my heart´s silent prayer happening in spite of my mind – may be heard, seen, understood.
Who knows ?
Madhu – alias Alice…or vice versa…
With Love
Madhu
“I´d prefer the old ´Orange Book’ where on the back the Master is to be seen with a Veena, that miraculous old musical instrument, and included in the book His poetical ways of invitations, to get out of the mind and to celebrate that.” (Madhu)
Thank you, Madhu. This is beautiful writing.
Yes, this one paragraph written by Madhu is much superior than 30 minutes class room lecture in the name of meditation.
“the actor mentioned, and followed another (pretty new one and seemingly very good and realistic one)”.
Madhu, don’t we all at some time & some all the time have the ability to recognize the inevitable?!
Madhu, good post.
There is a lot of evidence that meditation improves health, and Amrito must have chosen the Osho extracts in the first edition of the book, ‘From Medication to Meditation’ in 1994.
Also, sadly, as I know from my work as a mental health social worker, there were always a few casualties from meditation, and I saw a few who had spent too long in yoga ashrams, and clearly were not ‘ready’. And there were a few in Sannyas also who were not ready for activities like dynamic meditation, and it only worsened their incipient psychosis.
One suspects that Prem Amrito has been stirred to record this video because of the plague of ‘mindfulness’ courses everywhere, and it is worth reminding people of Osho’s much more honed approaches, but which Amrito seems to fail to appreciate are not based on some arguments for health. Osho himself did not have the best of health by any means, for example.
Lokesh is right to flag up that meditation is also about being beyond mind, and the death of the separate self – and, as he says, you can#t really sell that!
Just watched the entire video for the first time (previously, I’d not gone beyond the first 2 minutes) and, setting aside any ‘personality considerations’ re the speaker, I think he did an excellent job in clarifying basic points about what meditation is and isn’t, and elucidating its beneficial effects.
Although, as I and a few others here have suggested, this presentation still amounts to ‘sugaring the pill’, what else to expect from anyone who is just an ordinary man (however privileged, ‘polished’ and self-confident he might be), and most definitely not a master?
In that sense, Amrito hasn’t pretended to be anyone or anything other than a medical professional-cum-’journalistic researcher’, so I reckon he deserves a bit of credit for this effort.
I missed the post, Satyadeva, sorry, credit to you. What I want to say, you said in your last paragraph: “Amrito hasn’t pretended to be…”
You said it all! Thanks for calling my attention. Cheers!
Aha…
Daily Mail has not written an article about the healing effects of meditation but quoted a research about Sarcasm. When I remember Osho’s talks, most of the time dealing with other religions and followers of other sects, He has used quite often sarcasm to bring them to their sizes.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3175005/Oh-really-Sarcasm-lowest-form-wit-actually-makes-people-brighter-creative.html
“When I remember Osho’s talks, most of the time dealing with other religions and followers of other sects, He has used quite often sarcasm to bring them to their sizes.”
Don’t forget, Shantam, he did that to his own religion and followers of his own sects.
What people tend to forget when they say “sarcasm is the lowest form of wit” is that it is still a form of wit, even if low, and in that sense a higher option than being witless.
At the other end of the scale to being witless is being a witness, and to be enlightened I would wager that you probably need to have your wits about you.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/sarcasm-how-the-lowest-form-of-wit-actually-makes-people-brighter-and-more-creative-10416281.html
Doctor Ed Nowtes, SN’s resident specialist writes:
Following some severe spending reviews these last few months, we have had to cut back on many of our traditional remedies here at the surgery/leisure centre/ hairdressing salon/ nail parlour/ ashram/24 hour grocery and Swimming Pool.
During many a late evening, we at the ‘Osho Sorting Office’, as the regulars like to call this place, receive phone-calls from distressed ‘first-timers’ to India, who report that they just can’t get a proper sandwich at the Blue Diamond (one of my favourite hotels) after 11 pm. The normal procedure in emergencies such as this is to calm the prospective ‘meditator’ or ‘wet behind the ears tourist’ down with some ready-made advice, usually dispensable over the phone.
In situations like this, the heart rate can soar to dizzying heights, thoughts may even go unwatched, any notion of simply lying down and ‘stopping’ with a bedside read of the very spiritual and similarly incomprehensible Beezle-Baba’s bedside book, ‘Dr Andrews’s Guide to All Sorts of Complaints’ may, unwisely, go unheeded, unless the potential meditator is ‘brought to book’.
For just such occasions copies of this b-n-b is now available at B’n'Bs in the Pune-Bundgarden area of family-run humble cottages, which have all agreed to provide each guest room with a copy of my very own guide.
This book has some very useful chapters on common alternative remedies for casual visitors to any Indian Hotel/ Luxury Resort / Pakhora Palace, including;
‘How to relax after being banned’, then another chapter on sleepless nights, including how to count backwards from 21.
There are also handy tips on redecorating any former hippy ashram, as a recovery method for people with spiritual hangovers and long-lost memories. There is a modern readers’-guide section on setting up your own fancy Cake-Shop in Nepal, obviously with separate sections for men and women, and finally a very useful ‘Things To Do List ‘, to help visiting lawyers spend their time and the Resort money with facing off writs from Indian nationalist re-visionists who wouldn’t have been seen dead anywhere near this place whilst the ‘Boss’ was still alive.
These methods are part of an ancient tradition of hand-me down advice which any sandwich-hungry visitor will find extremely useful when discourse runs late and finger-chips are no longer available in the Hotel Cafe.
Finally, do remember to make sure that your opinions are in order and that you bring a large supply of Veno’s medicinal cough drops (or the traditional Fisherashram Friend’s linctus) as we recommend anyone who has ever considered coughing at classical concerts or during a spiritual video, to go ‘suck on it’.
Thanks for Watching.
Enjoy.
xxx The Doc
At first viewing, I initially believed this video clip might be an attempt by Amrito to compete with the famous American ‘Self-Help’ guru and TV personality, Dr Phil, judging by all the letters listed after his name in the written intro at the start.
However, after some consideration, it soon became apparent that the whole thing was in fact a re-hash of the famous classical tale of horror and perversion, entitled ‘Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde’, or to be more precise in this case, ‘Dr John and Mr Ghastly-Ghoulish’. For those of you who are not familiar with the story, it is basically about a doctor who endeavours to bring about deep and long-lasting personal transformation by imbibing liquid chemical cocktails, that he has elaborated in his own laboratory! (Amrito’s personal lab is located in the bar of the Blue Diamond Hotel, just around the corner from ashram.)
Whatever next? Perhaps the next step in his ‘Master-Plan’ will be to set himself up as the sole guru figure in Pune, once he has got rid of the few remaining half-decent therapists still hanging around. We could see the OIF being renamed the Dr John Andrews International Meditation and Detox Center!
Personally, I shall not be looking forward to forthcoming amateurish attempts at stardom by Amrito. Similar to Devageet, in my opinion, he really has very little to offer, other than patently obvious platitudes on the nature of meditation. I could see a future for him in comedy though!
“For those of you who are not familiar with the story, it is basically about a doctor who endeavours to bring about deep and long-lasting personal transformation by imbibing liquid chemical cocktails, that he has elaborated in his own laboratory! (Amrito’s personal lab is located in the bar of the Blue Diamond Hotel, just around the corner from ashram).”
I don`t know about what Dr Amrito is up to these days, but your description above sounds a bit like the late Dr Shulgin, the inventor of MDMA, who used to invent different chemical cocktails in his lab and test them on himself:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-27676669
By the way, Frank, I never knew that you ran a drugs advice charity!
I don’t disagree with anything said about this video, but one small point. I assume this isn’t pitched to long-term meditaters and sannyasins. I presume he is addressing beginners, people who might be interested in trying meditation, and given the comments attached to the video he has pitched successfully.
Yes, good point, Arps.
Yes, Arpana, you’re right about him addressing the beginners & their responses but, just in case you haven’t observed, he also is saying to all other fellow sannyasins to plainly shut up so the responses to his video here are quite just here on SN, just in case you & SD haven’t observed.
Don’t really get your point, Kavita.
You sound as if you think my remarks were antagonistic and they weren’t.
Where or how is he “saying to all other fellow sannyasins to plainly shut up”, please, Kavita?
Arpana, not at all what you say.
SD, it’s the undercurrent message which I got from his body language, not any direct verbal expression.
I still don’t understand what your remarks to me meant.
Arpana, it’s not about you, maybe it’s because I have seen & interacted (not many times though) with him and that’s my sediments of attachment to his body & its actions during my Lao Tzu House guarding days.
For what it’s worth, Kavita, IMO, Amrito and Jayesh are not reponsible for most of the criticism levelled at them. Most of it is projection and displaced authority baggage.
Arpana, my experiance is one can’t clap with one hand, that happens only in Zen koans!
@ Kavita 27 July, 2015 at 3:32 pm
Thats an interesting take on that koan. I like it.
Thanx, dear
Pure imagination, Kavita.
SD, not pure imagination, pure perception!
Delusion, Kavita. No evidence whatsoever. Such a purely subjective impression would be thrown out of any court – except that of the prosecution in some totalitarian State!
Thus we become like those we righteously despise, or regard as chronically ‘wrong’, therefore ‘enemies’ – is that not so?
Yes, SD, ideally I/we wish could be enemyless!
Dear Kavita,
Just now only a feedback that your contribution on the ´inevitable´ hit a spot in me, is working in me for days and I found it valuable; yet the response is not coming up yet.
Yesterday was dedicated to Gurupurnima, being grateful to all the past/present/future Entities, guiding us, whether visible or not.
On another level, the UN has chosen the yesterday´s date for a day to remind us all (globally) of Friendship.
What a beautiful coincidence, isn’t it?
In the full moon night
opening my windows
saw the play of hide and seek
clouds watching
Now
clear and bright sky
as if
nothing ever happened.
With love
Madhu
Madhu, Dear, today i.e. 31st July 2015 is Guru Purnima in India, according to our almanac here at home, but I guess no harm in you celebrating the eve of Guru Pournima too!
Thank you for your poetic rendition of all sorts!
Quite right, Kavita! I spotted it too! Bear in mind that SD has been away from the game for a while and is not up to full match fitness yet! Show him some compassion and try and go easy on him for the time being if you can.
Ok, Ashok, if you say so I’ll try!
“spotted” what?!
Kindly enlighten me re this clearly crucial piece of information, Ashok.
At 15.32, some of the hairs in his beard twitch. Surely, you must have noticed, SD?
Guys, Osho loved Devaraj very much, it is clear, it is in all his books the love and respect Devaraj had from Osho, and let’s not forget he was always at Osho’s side in the difficult times, and he is doing a great job in the Resort, like it or not! I bet he is enlightened! The video couldn’t be better, it came at the right time with the right guy!
Tan, any guy (Amrito) who gets poisoned and is put near death in the service of a community and vision of Osho, is worth a lot of time. The rest is just my plain ol’ comedy hour on SN, which invites the same mickey-taking both ways.
PM, you are the first here, for what I can remember, to say nice things about Devaraj. That is great! Cheers!
What about my post, 12.14pm today, Tan?
(PS: Hi! Glad you enjoyed RS).
“I bet he is enlightened!”
How much?
How much enlightened – or how much would she bet?
Or both?!
Guys, the thing is, all these guys, like Arun, Osho Rajneesh, Osho photographer and many more, claim they are enlightened by the grace of Osho, and many have disciples, run ashrams, etc…Then, what about the man who was so close to Osho? I am sure he is enlightened, just he makes no fuss about it because there is nothing to brag about, I guess. Cheers!
That’s just an assumption, Tan – perhaps also a sort of wish-fulfilment. A bit naïve, frankly. Proximity, even close proximity to the master doesn’t necessarily imply anything, as far as I’ve heard. Remember, Nirvano, his ‘girl-friend’, committed suicide, ffs.
Perfectly ,Tan!
They are all enlightened!
The joint vision of Osho and Colonel Sanders is coming to fruition as Shantambhai has clearly stated!
Enlightened ones are now available in big boneless bargain variety buckets on every street corner in world!
Osho`s 24 carat chicken macnugget vision is manifesting!
Osho laid the roots and his disciples have supplied the wings!
Some say that it has triggered a spiritual obesity epidemic, but I say unto you, just let go of your mind and follow Shree Shantam and the other enlightened ones’` example and tuck into a supersized 2-breast meal whenever you get the chance!
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
Finger lickin` good!
“Some say that it has triggered a spiritual obesity epidemic”
You hit herewith some target to the ZERO…
What good archery, Anand Yogi!
Madhu
You never disappoint us, crazy Yogi! XX
Osho laid the roots and his disciples have supplied the wings!
I agree that there is a global spiritual obesity epidemic.
In which case, Sannyasnews is a kind of ‘Weightwatchers’.
It doesn`t work for everyone, of course, and by the sound of it, some of the characters you get on here probably need liposuction!
If I am getting this right, probably these global spiritual obesity epidemic sufferers get completely sucked by themselves from time to time – sounds like a zen koan!
“completely sucked” – translation, please?!
Not just liposucked / spot sucking.
Yes, from what I have observed gurus are human, in the sense that they have their favourites also. Being a guru’s favourite most certainly does not guarantee any sort of spiritual specialness. It just means, for one reason or another, you are a favorite.
Osho had many examples of this around him, from young Sidhartha to Veeresh. One of my closest friends became a guru’s favourite and for some time many people began treating him like he was enlightened. He is a great guy but not enlightened. He found the whole carry-on most amusing.
One thing I have noticed amongst my contemporaries, who are in some way enlightened, becoming mini-gurus etc. is that they usually break with their past associates. It seems like it reinforces their enlightenment to the outside world by doing so. “I am no more who you think I am” etc., which is valid enough.
Watching the doc I very much doubt he is enlightened in any way, although he is probably a very sweet guy and all that. Most of the sannyasins I know of who did actually reach some kind of special understanding did so after moving on from Osho. On reflection, I tend to think time spent with Osho is time spent preparing the ground for understanding to happen, if the possibility even exists. It is a very rare guru who actually awakens lots of disciples simply by being who he is.
The doc seems in tune with what constituted a large part of Osho’s work, getting the meditation message out to as many people as possible. The kind of meditation being discussed has to do with the feel good factor. This has nothing to do with awakening to one’s intrinsic nobodyness and everything to do with being a better functioning dream character in a dream world.
Most enlightened people describe going through a dark night of the soul before the sun came up. These descriptions often sound quite hellish and are definitely not something that could be included in a meditation resort flyer. The truth is, nobody actually wants enlightenment. How can the ego wish for death? It can’t.
In sannyasin and new age circles the word enlightenment is bandied around like the ultimate must have, without any real insight into what it is. On top of that, enlightenment apparently happens to people, and there is practically nothing one can do to make it happen. It is said that when someone uses a ladder to climb over the wall into nirvana the ladder is tossed away, having served its purpose. This means you cannot copy the guru in any way in order to attain enlightenment. Most gurus come from a lineage and tend to supply pointers relating to that lineage. Osho did not. He was a rogue element, yet somehow he managed to get pretty enlightened, even though enlightenment is something that cannot be got because there exists no getter.
Some people can spend 50 years with a guru and remain the dream character they have always been. Other people can read a line in a guru’s book and wake up in an instant. I reckon Osho put paid to the myth that spending time in close proximity to him guaranteed awakening. As Sannyas history has shown, it was often the most unenlightened who got close to him to no end and the more quiet ones in the background who stood a better chance of awakening. The equation may well be, as far as Osho was concerned, the ones who sat closest to him were the ones most in need of his love.
…and I can’t disagree with you, either!
“Most of the sannyasins I know of who did actually reach some kind of special understanding did so after moving on from Osho.”
I am sure you don’t consider any prerequisite for any special / ordinary understanding!
It goes without saying.
Again,the Scottish skinhead baboon speaks with the same level of awakening that one would expect from a skinhead after 8 pints of heavy with Buckfast tonic chasers on Sauchiehall street at 11.30 on Saturday night!
I have spent over 50 years at the feet of my guru Swami Bhorat and never for a moment have I doubted his or my enlightenment! Nor does anyone I meet, so advanced is my level of humility!
Lokesh has spent decades at the feet of numerous enlightened bald guys and has even now become bald himself, but to no avail! Even a recently spent afternoon with KFC Sadguru Shantam Singh has left him none the wiser!
There is only one way to Moksha: Drop the ego and surrender to the wisdom of mighty Bhorat!
The `ladder over the wall to Nirvana` cannot be tossed away, altho’ Shantambhai has tried hard.
Furthermore, the Scottish skinhead`s stubborn refusal to listen to the wonderful meditative music of Bhorat and the sweet tunes of Mittal and Primen but instead listening to ZZTop and AC/DC shows clearly that he is less likely to reach Nirvana than be arrested for driving while blind on the road to Hell!
Yahoo!
Hari Om!
Tush!
“Osho loved Devaraj, very much”
So what,Tan? Because he had Osho’s blessing, does that automatically make him a wonderful ‘enlightened’ guy? Let’s not forget that Sheela also had Osho’s approval for a while, did she not?
Unfortunately, Tan, as SD has already pointed out, you appear naïve ( or you are a plant), like a lot of non-critical sannyasins I have met. Osho made mistakes because he was a human being. Don’t build him up into some kind of god-like infallible figure, and if you do, you might want to ask yourself why you do so.
Ashok, Amrito was close to Osho. There was something beautiful going on between them. I am quite sure.
Sheela was a different case. Cheers!
If you are “quite sure”, Tan, then you must of course be right, my dear boy (or girl or whatever you are – Yogendra, p’haps?). What can I say in response to such deep, insightful wisdom, logic and certitude? I think you’ve got me there!
Ashok, I am a woman. And what about you? Are you an Indian guy? Just curious.
Good to have someone around, Tan, who isn’t, like the rest of us, always upchucking clever, knowing opinions.
Thanks, Arps, and you’re always a gentleman. Cheers!
“like the rest of us, always upchucking clever, knowing opinions.”
How candid and revealing Arpana, so that’s your little game, is it? Thank you for your honesty.
Please enlighten me as to how a lowly ‘wretched sinner’, like myself, can raise himself to the ranks of such an illustrious group of shining spirits, of which, quite clearly, you represent a modest and integral part?
Tan, you must be a plant! Also not very well informed.
I myself have praised Amrito in various places on SN for his stickability. He may be English public school but preferable to those like Arun, that guy Rajneesh, and the Delhi squad, who want to get rid of him and take over the ashram resort and make it a place of pilgrimage and samadhi, not growth.
As for the name John Andrews, not my taste, such a name is almost as common as John Smith. Amrito wrote a self-indulgent and quite political book called ‘The Choice is Ours’ around 1991, which was so boring it disappeared without trace. I kept one for historical reference. He authored that book using the name George Meredith, and as I remember from Prem Paritosh, who is now deceased, but knew Amrito before he became a sannayasin, that was his birth name.
What “a plant” means? Somebody could enlighten me?
Tan,
A plant means, in this case, someone who has their true identity hidden for strategic purposes or another hidden agenda.
Example: The suspect was ‘a plant’ by the police, as he was really an informant gathering information.
In this case, Ashok is being accusatory, by making accusations that are tangential and elliptical to the conversation without evidence, i.e. accusing you of not being who you say you are (not an impossibility on the internet or even in real life actually). However, he, Ashok, by this means of accusation without evidence, could also be a plant, Shantam could be a tree, I could be a part-time fitness instructor, Parmartha could be a launderette attendant and Lokesh could be dispensing words of wisdom from a laptop connected to the chill-out lounge of an Ibizan trance dance club.
Some accusations are completely unbelievable of course.
Thanks, PM, you are lovely! XXX
Yes, PM, thank you for the full explanation of the meaning of ‘plant’ within the context I employed it. You are indeed, spot on! However, I think you may have failed to do Big P justice on this occasion. Of course I could be wrong, but I somehow feel that he was in fact referring to ‘plants’ of the ‘Little Weed’ (of ‘Bill & Ben, Flowerpot Men’ fame), variety!
Tan, you are indeed a plant! I have come to this conclusion after extensive in-depth analysis of your language, which clearly indicates to me that you are none other than Eccles of ‘Goon Show’ fame!
Well, Eccles, elsewhere you have enquired as to the origin of my nationality, and I regret to inform you that I am not Indian as you seem to think. No, my girl, it is much worse than that, I’m afraid – I’m Irish!
Eccles, if you are a girl of some impressive financial means as you appear to indicate at some point e.g. have a few million in the bank, then I think an apology on my part to your good self, might be forthcoming. Meanwhile, feel free to send me any donations so that I might continue with the valuable work I carry out here at SN i.e. providing the manure to keep some of the resident plants on this site, well and truly fertilised.
Masters and messiahs die and leave behind a crop of their own priests and politicians.
Smugness of Osho disciples won´t accept it but the fact remains, the gentleman talking about meditation can be termed as first “two in one” from the world of Osho.
“two in one” means what exactly, Shantam?
Priest and politician in one!
This 2 in 1 is the new evolutionary development thanks to the vast literature of Osho.
Absolutely nothing “evolutionary” or new or Osho-inspired in such a concept, Shantam. Don’t you know any history?!
Sounds right to me, Shantam.
Big P and Ashok, how dare both of you call me a “plant”? What a horrible thing to say. I just come here at SN to have a laugh with the guys and give my honest opinion in what is being talked about.
Now if some of you think it is stupid, naive, etc…that’s fine. And I don’t mind, at all, you know why? Because I am a very happy woman and quite successful, and for that I mean I had all my psychological needs fulfilled. And I have plenty to show for it! Just leave the slandering out of it!
I deserve an apology! Cheers!
Yes, Ashok and PM are no doubt in league with El Diablo…aieeeeee!
Tan :
We are all very sorry about the lack of enlightenment currently available here on SN and elsewhere.
Our engineers are working hard to rectify the problem which is due to a lot of people all claiming a small part of the universal wisdom at one time.
We hope to resume normal service after tea-time and the cricket.
Very lucid. Great understanding. I loved the part where he talks about the body influencing the mind (instead of vice versa) and he mentions a study where people in three groups are nodding their heads or not and how it influences them saying yes or no later on. Thanx for sharing this!
Vedant, you are obviously not a plant. Could it be that you are a vegetable? Nod your carrot if the answer is yes. Potato people unite!
Interesting how often you react to positive remarks by sneering and jeering. You really are in touch with your snotty, obnoxious, inner 14 year old.
Arps, I am already aware of what a negative sour puss you are, therefore no need to keep reminding me. Get well soon. Be kind to vegetables.
Bless, exalted one. Of course your negativity, malice and spleen, directed at anyone you can get away with shitting on, comes from a higher place.
Arps, you do not come across like a vegetable lover. Shame on you.
This whole association between meditation and a solution from stress in the modern world is ill-founded, and at the moment it is incredibly widespread, and a major commercial proposition.
Let’s hope a few people get caught in the spokes of what it is really all about. NOT adaptation to the stress demands of ‘the world’, but living in the world but not being part of it. Sometime those folk have to leave their uptight jobs and really space out a bit, to even begin the journey.
A point.
In my experience there’s a honeymoon period when starting a new meditation, and then the shit hits the fan, and to grow we have to push on through the shit hitting the fan time, the next honeymoon time, again and again.
I have met a lot of people who rave about meditation, and without exception they have all reached a point when they stop, usually citing reasons like, “too busy”; and I surmise they have reached the shit hitting the fan time and are rationalising giving up, so their experiences of meditation are ‘nice’, coupled with the fact that there is an ego boost in the early days, being able to claim to meditate, a lot of cache; so they stop, but cling to the claim of being meditators, and how wonderful the experience is, perpetuating the falsehoods you’re talking about.
I’m curious, Arps, do you see yourself as a meditator?
I have done a lot of formal meditating and continue to do so, but don’t feel meaningfully identified with meditating. I don’t think of myself as spiritual or anything like that.
P.S: If you had ever really gone into meditation you wouldn’t need to ask such a question.
“P.S: If you had ever really gone into meditation you wouldn’t need to ask such a question.“ (Arpana)
Sorry, Arpana, your PS may as well be used unto some of your responses (like this one).
And you may even know that, I presume.
And what the hell is going on here in the chat, just now?
Prem Martyn, after giving us a profound insight, a very professional one, on the ´secret life of plants´, promised not only Tan here that after cricket and an afternoon tea (yesterday), one would get to the senses again.
And take care of that.
We have to do it ourselves.
And if you, Arpana, has better insight or acknowledgement, referring to the content of the vid and what is spoken there, why not share your insights according to the thread subject itself, instead of having a kind of boxing fight approach to others?
Madhu
P.S:
I confess that the plant issue having been happening here in midst of it all, irritated me, although it might be good that it came up.
Madhu, I have no idea what you are talking about, and I am certain you have no idea what I am talking about.
I suspect you have taken a remark aimed at Lokesh as something to do with you. It isnt!
Hold on, Arpana, does not fit (your P.S. remark) for everybody – sometimes more, sometimes less? Including you and me too, as that was the reason I got ´hooked’. A day later, I just see, that I could have had an better expression for it.
Anyway, this is an open screen, sometimes one stands in the flight-line, so to say, and there´s almost always some sense in it, if that happens.
I am grateful for the reminder because as a reminder it may belong to everybody, may it not?
Madhu
P.S:
Another day later you also may use other words (if any at all) for the same?
Yes. A spontaneous remark turns into something else written down on a forum.
The spontaneous remark happens in response to an image in the imagination first.
Good you enjoyed Monty Python. Always funny.
Madhu, you do not seem to understand that Arps believes himself to be in the front line of some kind of battlefield. What the battle is based on is not clear. Perhaps, with the apparent passage of time, all will be revealed. Mind you, I wouldn’t hold my breath, unless there is a poison gas attack.
It might be a British thing. Young boys of Arps’s generation were brought up on war comics and that sort of thing can affect someone well into adulthood.
‘Prem Martyn, after having given us a profound insight..’
Dear Madhu,
I liked your post, and feel that you are on the right track in your admonishment of Arpana’s ‘prickly-pear’ attitude as of late. Let me also add that his reply to you in which he claims to not understand the meaning of your post is obviously glib and specious. His dishonesty on this occasion does not do him any credit and contrasts rather sharply with what I would perhaps describe as his over-honesty, when the mood takes him!
Madhu, I sincerely think that you could be of great service in Arpana’s continuing recovery, by berating and cajoling him with more of your Teutonic principles, rigour and discipline, a little more frequently. Make an honest man of him, Madhu! You can do it if you try!
Now, with regard to your comment on PM, (another of my patients), which I have used as today’s headline, let me just say this: firstly, he does indeed deserve some praise for what was in my opinion a reasonably tight and well-written piece, that was concise, informative and humorous. However, to describe his work as being of ‘profound insight’, is in fact taking things a little too far in my humble opinion.
Additionally, I believe that this kind of comment places a rather heavy burden on PM’s youthful (and at times over-exuberant) shoulders, in the sense that he may now feel he has something to live up to. God forbid that he gets carried away with your praise, and in his excitement is tempted to return to his former addictive behaviour as the ‘Garbler’! On my special recuperative programme for this type of addict, and in which he is currently enrolled, I counsel against over-exciting participants like him.
Well, that’s all for today, folks, from me, your very own Dr Paddywhacko (Royal College of Lobotomists, M.A.S.T.E.R.B.A.T.O.R., and Specialist in Andrew’s Liver Salts).
Bog off, wretched sinner.
That looks like an honest response to me, Arpana, and therefore as a practising physician I am delighted that the course of treatment that I recommended to Ma Madhu for your case, seems to be bearing fruit. No doubt in part, this is due to the relish and missionary zeal with which she has gone about her work, judging by the frequency of her recent communications to you. I don’t think it would be premature of me at this point to perhaps consider awarding you both ‘Soul Partner’ status, in my recovery programme.
Given your return to honest ways, I now feel confident that should Ma Madhu continue to pay you the necessary attention, then a long-term solution to your CAP (Cut & Paste) compulsive-obsessive disorder could be attainable and you will from that point be able to think for yourself again.
Best wishes from your Doc Paddy W. Hacko MD (Currently on sabbaatical leave in Tonga, attending to the health requirements of the Polynesian Women in Need Forum).
@ wretched:
Once upon a time in the Kingdom of Heaven, God went missing for six days.
Eventually, Michael the Archangel found him resting on the seventh day.
He inquired of God, “Where have you been?” God sighed a deep sigh of satisfaction and proudly pointed downwards through the clouds. “Look, Michael, look what I’ve made.” Archangel Michael looked puzzled and asked “What is it?”
“It’s a planet,” replied God, “and I’ve put life on it. I’m going to call it Earth and it’s going to be a place of great balance.”
“Balance?” asked Michael, still confused.
God explained, pointing to different parts of the Earth. “For example, Northern Europe will be a place of great opportunity and wealth, while Southern Europe is going to be poor; the Middle East over there will be a hot spot. Over there I’ve placed a continent of white people and over there is a continent of black people,” God continued, pointing to different countries.
And over there, I call this place America…North America will be rich and powerful and cold, and South America will be poor but hot and friendly. And this little spot in the middle is Central America, which will also be a hot spot. Can you see the balance?”
“Yes,” said the Archangel, impressed by God’s work. Then he pointed to a large landmass and asked “What’s that one?”
“Ah,” said God, “that’s Australia, the most glorious place on Earth. There are beautiful mountains, rainforests, rivers, streams and an exquisite coastline. The people are good looking, intelligent, humorous and they’ll have such a thirst to discover other cultures that they’ll be found travelling the world. They’ll be extremely sociable, hard-working and high-achieving, and they will be known throughout the world as diplomats and carriers of peace. I’m also going to give them superhuman, undefeatable cricket and rugby players who will be admired and feared by all who come across them.”
Michael gasped in wonder and admiration but then asked, puzzled, “But where’s the balance?”
God stroked his chin and answered “Wait until you see the ugly, whining, sheep rooting b@stards I’m putting next to them.”
Arps, thanks for your response. It says much about you, although no real surprises there.
Hope you managed to learn something about yourself, but given your track record, not very likely.
Is the meditation a new kind of wonder exercise which claims to increase the cup size in all kind of ma´s, or in the case of male population, some millimetre of extra extension in their most precious organ?
I would really like to ask high priestly disciples of great master Osho, aka Bhagwan Shree, if you are really satisfied with your meditation. Is it all because of Dynamic, Kundalini, Vipassana?
In your self-declared healthy state of being, how much role is played by the free flow of women?
Will these gentlemen ever tell the secret that bodily and emotional juice of the women half of their age is the REAL NECTAR in their opening of crown chakra?
I am not even asking about master´s presence and loving and secured shelter of the commune.
It could be that “meditation” operates in two basic areas:
1. transforming/shifting one`s consciousness – the inner feeling of one`s experience
2. releasing the individual from the programmes imposed on him/her by social institutions. (distinguishing between social fictions and natural patterns).
It seems that meditation as relaxation, stress release etc. is a usage of the first part.
And as commentators here suggest, in this approach the second part is entirely ignored. This is the deconstruction or death of the ‘ego’ bit.
“I” like the idea of a kind of enlightenment-lite (enlitenment(tm)). This one doesn`t have a kind of horror-movie ending of ‘ego-death’ where the protagonist screams into his dark night of the soul in his pitch-black cave of nothingness and non-being, as the impersonal pendulum of existence swings and slashes his ego to a pulp, but rather one where the issue is of seeing the ‘ego’ as a social fiction. That is, a means of communication (like the ‘I’ of language) which is akin to the idea of the equator, which is useful for navigation but you would be pretty crazy to actually expect it to be a physical mark running round the circumference of the Earth.
Whichever way, it is clear that people are more likely to pay to change their consciousness than to shell out to find out they don`t really exist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5fGSBsfq8
The Adjustement Team UK has been finding a real clue with the monthly vid´you posted, Arpana – for the time being, as one says.
If it is the way out, one will see….
It worked for me, up to the moment I heard the neighborhood Bavaria hooligan in the courtyard here in Munich in a little pretty closed kind of village in town, where I am living. With anonymous working pretty skilled IT hackers and buggers.
The vid though IS hilarious, no doubt about it!
Madhu
P.S:
Morning update P.S. for Arpana – as the sender and Monty Python fan.
In the second ´go´, the vid even worked better in the morning than yesterday evening. The reason may be that I could watch it without remarkable distractions by a football hooligan in/on the onlooker’s sides.
It really works as a laughter remedy.
Thanks again.
Yahoo !
Madhu
Morning P.S. II for Arpana…
It sometimes inter-depends on what spot of some football FAN curves you happen to be… how you can then enjoy or are even able to see (comprehend) it all…
So good that some of the numerous broadcastings can be looked at, and some are really worth it, to look at it again and again.
Just for the joy of it.
Madhu
(So maybe working on fans and regulating hooligan behaviour is needed, isn´t it?).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw8ZL_gcTSM
Guess the subcontinent was not included in this match for obvious reasons!
P.S: For SD, they know it’s all an illusion!
“This one doesn`t have a kind of horror-movie ending of ‘ego-death’ where the protagonist screams into his dark night of the soul in his pitch-black cave of nothingness and non-being, as the impersonal pendulum of existence swings and slashes his ego to a pulp”
Frank…You booked just the half hour or are you a regular client?
Fwank..It’s possible to have the cake and eat it, without getting Lobsang Rampa-ish you know. I told you those Tibetans were spooky and totally unerotic about dissolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZFf9lYHn_c
‘Ego death’ (R18)
Sci-fi, spi-fi thriller with Keanu Reeves as the psychonaut who comes out of retirement at the behest of his Master for one last mission in a laboratory in Harrow!
Frank,
I like your attempt to distinguish the purposes and effects of meditation and to better understand the notion of enlightenment.
I’ve often noticed that those teachers who talk about enlightenment and the death of the ego as the ultimate expression of this realisation, also often confuse the rest of us. The confusion seems to arise because the journey is so fraught with pain and difficulty.
My feeling is that it is different for different people. By this, I mean that some suffer very deeply, as you describe; with periods of great desolation and death, looking into the nothingness and struggling with it. You describe it well, referring to the “impersonal pendulum of Existence” as if such impersonalness is some form of nightmare.
Osho talks about his dark night of the soul as do others. Tolle and Barry Long and many other eastern teachers also describe this journey as deeply difficult and hellish.
My own feeling is that the hellish nature is partly a result of the enormous resistance in these individuals. Others don’t suffer the same hell because they are less resisting. Note, I do say partly.
The journey beyond our social conditioning and beyond the notions of the individual self is not easy. We are forced to try and see ourselves as we truly are, and not what we have been conditioned to believe. It’s a process of dismantling the ideas we’ve grown up with, ideas that are cherished and nurtured by family, our peers, our friends, our scientists and teachers. And to stand alone, with little support from others, who will often defend their positions and beliefs violently.
At the same time, I also sense much of what I’ve suggested here is only very partly true.
From the other side: ideas like impersonalness, nothingness, emptiness, the ego, ego death, non-being, don’t seem so powerful.
Every one of us can, I’d suggest, also recognise the simplicity of nothingness on a hot day in the sun as we sit on the seashore and feel nothing at all. Or staring into the night sky and feeling the pulse of the universe above us, and inside us. In these moments nothingness, not being in our ego, is no longer a problem. It’s my understanding that in these moments, we have already reached our goal, we are already “enlightened”.
The problem is that we don’t make such moments conscious enough. We don’t recognise them and feed those parts of ourselves that are already enlightened.
The simplicity of a child, the fragrance of a flower, the beauty of a piece of music, the sounds of a stream, the love of a woman, all these are indications that the moment, Now, is good, is enough. And each of us already know this. We just have to cherish and feed these moments.
In doing so – the true meaning behind words like nothingness and emptiness are revealed.
Simond says, “In doing so – the true meaning behind words like nothingness and emptiness are revealed.”
Really? Revealed to who exactly? How do you know this? Is this your understanding or just something you read in a book, or heard someone say and are now repeating it because you like the sound of it?
Simond also says, “We don’t recognise them and feed those parts of ourselves that are already enlightened.”
Feed these parts with what, and who does the feeding? Who is it that makes the distinction between enlightened parts and unenlightened parts? If such parts can be viewed then something must be doing the viewing. The perceived cannot be the perceiver, so what exactly is what?
Simond draws the following conclusion: “It’s a process of dismantling the ideas we’ve grown up with.”
Is it? Could it not be a case of simply recognizing that ideas are ideas, seeing them as such and then dropping them? Why bother dismantling and to what ends? Once again, it is a case of believing that which is perceived has something to do with that which perceives, but how can it?
Simond, I reckon that everything you are presenting here is a mind trip. You are thinking this stuff up under the misguided notion that there is something spiritual about it. There is not. These are just your thoughts and ideas with a spiritual label attached. It will bring you nowhere. The mind secures its position by trying to wrap all these beyond mind states with a bunch of words…it has no choice…the mind cannot wish for its extinction…it does everything possible to sustain its existance. That is how it functions. Okay to play around with, I suppose, but silly to think you got it all worked out and nice and comfortable.
Simond’s speculation on what enlightened people went through runs just so: “My own feeling is that the hellish nature is partly a result of the enormous resistance in these individuals.”
Your feeling? Reeks of Sannyasspeak, as if to say because you have a feeling about something it has more value than actually thinking about it. I’m afraid not in this case because if you thought about it, matter of fact you would soon reach the simple conclusion you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. How could you? What do you know about the enormous resistance that existed in enlightened people pre-enlightenment? How on earth can you imagine that you have a feeling about such things to the extent that you imagine you know that?
First answer that comes to mind is that you are dreaming. Well, as John Lennon said, you are not the only one.
Lokesh,
You ask from me to explain how I know anything. I simply speak from my understanding. I look in, I explore with others and I find out what is true and what isn’t.
I offer my understanding to you and anyone else who may read what I say. And there are many times when what someone else says has far more understanding than me.
I wonder why you should be so doubtful about this. I don’t quote anyone. I say it as I see it. I attempt to write clearly, not forgetting that words and ideas aren’t always easy to express.
What I have read has acted as a catalyst to my experience, sometimes confirming me, on other occasions, filling me with confusion and doubt. All I know is to trust myself and to test that out with others.
You ask about the issue about dismantling ideas, and suggest that it is a case of just “recognising” them.
My experience is that ideas are far more subtle and far deeper than you suggest. They are diverse and imbedded as part of our sensation and feelings and aren’t so easily extricated. I continue to explore their affects on me.
As to knowing what enlightened people know or went through, I don’t know. I don’t pretend to know. I just look at my experience. I explore my self. In many ways, the whole notion is totally confusing and mired in misunderstanding. What one person has described as the so-called enlightened state differs from many others. But I have, as you inferred, read what they have said, I have explored with those who say they are enlightened and I have explored with others who have no knowledge of the concept. On many occasions I’m humbled and delight in what the normal, regular’ man and woman say, as it is uncorrupted by the over-spiritual types like me.
I know about the ‘resistance’ of those so-called enlightened people because I have explored my fears and resistance to the simplicity of living in the moment. I know how difficult it is to stay true and real. Because I have found it so too.
In conclusion, I find many who say they “know”, who appear to me know very little and others who don’t even recognise the concept at all, and discovered they “know” a lot.
Indeed, much of my delight in reading your insights on this site, is that you too have trusted your own insight rather than follow the crowd, who simply believe what Osho and others like him have told them.
As far as I see it, that’s what Osho asked us all to do.
Just an extra thought, Lokesh,
You appeared rather offended that I should speculate on the resistance that ‘enlightened people’ faced.
You write:
“you haven’t a clue what you are talking about. How could you? What do you know about the enormous resistance that existed in enlightened people pre-enlightenment? How on earth can you imagine that you have a feeling about such things to the extent that you imagine you know that?”
How can you be so sure that my speculations are incorrect?
How can you be trusted to know they didn’t have resistance?
You seem so sure, yet how so? Don’t you see, it’s so easy to turn the same question onto you? How do YOU know? You seem so sure that I can’t know, but why?
If you read Osho, if you read many who claim they have reached their goal, they almost all refer to the difficulties and problems they faced. Why are you so offended that I should refer to these problems?
There can be only one.
Yeah, come on Rev…
I need more info on this struggling for entitlement mullarkey…does it involve humming? Standing on one leg? Cleaning the Chakras with Brillo?
Mock not the Totnesians for the holy sandal is theirs!
(P.S: Notice Frank in the opening sequence, half-naked and proselytising, again, in the background):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9czBBKof7Yo
No longer a great fan of the Monty Python gang, too English, but I must say that the clip is well chosen…the holy gourd, indeed. Great stuff!
When mainstream mass circulated media writes about meditation, I find it more interesting than those people´s blah blah who have some kind of priestly professional interest in it.
Similarly, it is a joy to watch western people doing yoga than Indian yogis playing special. In between I have also learnt two, three yogic postures for lower back pain.
So here is one article about the effect of meditation from my favourite trash news site. Trash I am saying for the reason, Daily Mail is shamelessly proud of British monarchy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3180092/Trying-stop-smoking-Meditation-key-success-reduces-cravings-without-realising.html
What is the difference between a parrot who is disposed reliably to respond differentially to the presence of red things by saying “Raawk, that’s red”, and a human reporter who makes the same noise under the same circumstances?
Robert B. Brandom
Simond enquires, “How do YOU know?”
I don’t, and therefore am able to recognize when someone else does not know, which answers the second part of the question, “You seem so sure that I can’t know, but why?”
Simond concludes with the question, “Why are you so offended that I should refer to these problems?”
I do not take offence at anything you say, merely question it. I reckon you are running in circles at the end of an existential cul-de-sac. I draw this conclusion because most of your premise is based on a wrong footing. You base much of what you say on your experience. Experience is not it. You speak about feeding the positive etc., without actually addressing who you think it is that is doing the feeding and why. Positive or negative makes no difference in this case because you see yourself as something apart from both. So what is the point of feeding something which you obviously view as not you and to what ends would you want to do that?
I understand where you are coming from. Seeing yourself as spiritual, gaining understanding, seeking enlightenment etc. Well and good up to a point, a point where you come to see that this is bringing you nowhere and perhaps drop out of the whole circus you have created around yourself, spiritual or otherwise. Meet the ring master.
I can relate to what you say, if I refer to memory, that miraculous device that makes a great servant and can turn into a horrible master if let loose. The thing is, for over twenty years I have been living with the fact that it is all mind stuff. That realization leaves a vacuum. Mind hates a vacuum but if you do not go for the mind trip you learn to embrace, live with, live in the vacuum. It is not an experience (for want of a better word) that most people would seek out. In fact, quite the opposite. You start to see that there is no spiritual path as such, it’s a pretty metaphor that implies you need a path because you are going from here to there, spiritual evolution, or some such notion, something Gurudjieff firmly promoted and therefore Osho also, because Osho was strongly motivated by the remarkable man.
Osho was also strongly attracted to Zen, which dispels such ideas with a whack to the head. So a contradiction exists. There is no path. There is no journey and if there is it goes from here to here. If you are graced by truth and real understanding it will be adios you, because those forces leave no space for a wee ego trip to sustain itself.
It is not an experience, so as long as you go on speaking about your experiences you are still well off the mark. It is all good, ultimately. You know you are on the right track when experiences lose their appeal. How many more experiences do you need? Do you have an experience account that you are adding zeros to for when you reach retirement age and need something to look back on? Forget it! To most people what I have said will sound like craziness. Who gives a shit? Maybe one of the readers will feel something resonate in their heart and go, yes! Who gives a shit? Yep, who gives a shit is one of those ultimate questions. Funny, when you contemplate it. That is good. A sense of humour is all important. I am off for a swim in the big blue. as on the inside so on the outside, or something like that.
I have been swimming alone recently. It goes like this: First ten minutes…monkey mind chatters like fuck. Next twenty minutes, monkey mind begins to fall silent. From then on it is pure meditation in motion, brought into the moment wherein the realization strikes you that if your body lets you down…one hundred metres to the bottom…you are dead. Then it hits you…it is a good day to die. The razor’s edge.
Thank you, Lokesh – recognition! You have been living 20 years in this vacuum, meaning, I presume, emptiness, not full yet? That’s quite a challenge!
I like what they say in Zen, they call it the wintertime, branches are barren, waiting for the Spring to come, and blossom appears…oh, oh, oh what a long winter we’ve had have these years!
I have a song for the early morning word-smithers of SN. Avast ye word-smithers !!
It has the magic ability of turning words into a song for every possible use. It takes us from the nameless to the named .
It’s good to know songs like this exist, for they bring good cheer and enable friendship, courage and loyalty amongst us wondrous muppeteers…All for One and One for All.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Oen7rRSmKk
Ah, words. Those amazing things without which dealing with people would become, I dare say, impossible. The result of using so much words is that we live in a word of symbols, which would appear to be, oh dear, unreal.
To escape from the confinement of unreality, created by that ever so verbal mind, one needs to shift attention from words and focus on what they refer to, enabling one to see things as they really are. Well, so I have been told, and it does seem to work, having tried it out. Maybe the Muppets need to look into that.
Well……Lokesh…
I like your story-tale.. hence the nameless and the named…
timeless too….
…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDpW8kiBeM
or for Daoists …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKFQXovzZ6o
(MOD: POST EDITED)
Arpana wrote, “sheep-rooting b@stards”.
Yes, Arpana, it is true, I do enjoy shagging sheep, esp. ‘little lambs of God’, as well as other kinds of fodder, e.g. *ass. holy followers and ‘Bible Punchers’, amongst others. However, me favourite is goats! And unless I am very much mistaken, Arpana, I’VE GOT YOUR GOAT WELL AND TRULY SERVED UP ON ME TABLE!
With best wishes from your Doc, Paddy, enjoying a few points down at the Moon & Finger public house.
P.S:
Please try to see the funny side of this!
*ass. = assorted
This song resonates that feeling of Guru Purnima for me; felt like sharing…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHHfN6AEyoc&list=RDAHHfN6AEyoc
Obviously, Guru Purnima Day is not what it used to be…then again, what is?
How true, Loki.
I prefer this version:
https://youtu.be/uIRj93PLq8o
Now, me too