A Supporter of SN has sent us this extract which he says is given little attention, and which needs thinking about. We agreed, and so here it is:
Sometime in September/October 1988 Osho delivered lectures on the Zen Master, Hyakujo, called the Everest of Zen. During these he reflected on the failure of his first two communes.
Maneesha had asked a question about certain disciples getting special treatment.
Osho said “it is not a question, Maneesha, that special treatment means moving into my house, and having daily private chats with me. Are you aware of what you are asking? do you see your jealousy? Do you see your woman? ”
Osho went on
“The first commune (74-81 Pune one) was destroyed because of women’s jealousies. They were fighting continuously.
The second commune (Rajneeshpuram) was destroyed because of women’s jealousies.
And this is the third commune (1987 onwards/ Pune two) – and the last, because I am getting tired. Once in a while I think perhaps Buddha was right not to allow any woman in his commune for twenty years. I am not in favour of him: I am the first who has allowed men and women the same, equal opportunity for enlightenment. But I have burnt my fingers twice, and it has always been (because of) the jealousy of women.
Still, I am a stubborn person. After two communes, immense effort wasted, I have started a third commune, but I have not created any difference, women are still running it!
I want women here (now) in this commune NOT to behave like women. But small jealousies….
September/October 1988
December/January 1990
September/October 2014
One can put the feet in the same river again and again, if riverbed has dried.
The past which has no present is always a golden past.
Once Osho left the body, mind of the people around him started showing the colours in vengeance.
The fingers were getting raised against each other. He is egoist, she is not meditating, he was here for sex, she was here for her ego trips.
People around the rare master will behave so childishly is worth a psychological study.
It is like rough iron has turned into a razor blade.
You missed, Shantam!
One of the the points of this text is that EVEN WHEN Osho was alive, these ‘envies’ between disciples caused mayhem.
Many today think that somehow when Osho was alive some invisible protections were occuring. Well, maybe so, for individuals, but for the commune that clearly was not the case, and Osho states it very clearly here.
AND, this was and is not new. Disciples are always many, many miles behind any Master. Consider the disciples of Rumi who even committed murder through MALE jealousy. Disciples of Mansoor and Jesus betrayed them. And so on.
Question is how one could curtain the virus of jealousy?
It simply means whether it is incurable or there is no anti virus has developed in the world of advanced seekers who think godliness is there birth right.
I know quite well that it is JEALOUSY AND FEAR which prompted the decline of Osho´s work.
It is unforgiveable in a way because all the parties think they are above than the washermen´s wives.
Who knows?
But it sounds like he may have been in the mood to enjoy the following observations…
What is worse than a male chauvinist pig?
A woman who won`t do what she’s told.
What is the difference between a woman with PMT and a pitbull?
Lipstick
What’s six inches long, two inches wide and drives women wild?
Money.
What’s the smartest thing ever to come out of a woman`s mouth?
Albert Einstein’s dick.
Etc. etc.
Frank,
Did the Tibetans, who you spent a long time with, enjoy your jokes,
like those you splashed here at 6.37 pm ?
Like Arpana, i would really like to know more about your time in Tibet (?)
and your deep experiences there or here with Tibetans
looking forward to your response
Madhu
PS Frank,
I have seern a documentary about a Tibetan (last century) having been expelled from the Monestery and put in an torture prison
for the reason he translated the Kama Sutra into tibetan language ; it´s a swiss guy who worked on the documentary for years to go and showed it here at a doc festival and talked about some also uncomfortable truths besides our more or less idealistic views about realities behind the screens…
Maddie,
I don`t think that there is a word for `misogyny` in Tibetan.
Whereas,did you know that the Tibetan word for woman is `kye-men`, literal translation: `low-born` ?
They are really old-world people.
All the idealisation of them by westerners is mostly silly.
Yes they came up with some good stuff, but they are also a feudal bunch of ruffians.
You still get `rinpoches`- high lamas- telling woman and nuns to keep up their spiritual practice so that they can have a chance to be reborn as men in the next life!
Back in the day,I got to know a Tibetan who was one of the Dalai Lamas` bodyguards and part of the group of 20 that escorted DL through the Himalayas when they escaped from Tibet in India in `59.
A frightening looking geezer with one eye and a heavily scarred face who looked like FuManchu on a bad-hair day.
When they arrived India,Dalai Lama rewarded him. Part of the reward was a beautiful barely teenage bride. That’s the way it went,women were essentially property.
Mind you,it all went a bit pear-shaped when the freaks started arriving and the wife started having a scene with a libidinous and reckless French hippie, but that`s another story……
A salutary post, Frank.
I totally agree about the idealisation of the Tibetan culture, etc, and also many other old world cultures. In fact this very morning I am very sick of the 8th century Islamic culture, revisiting a good man of my own country, the UK, with such dreadful capital punishment, simply because he was born British.
Also if true, I am very pleased to hear about that French hippie who upset the Dalai Lama’s apple cart of reward. Good for him, and lets hope the Frog escaped any 13th century punishments!
Big P, the story is true and the French crazy wisdom exponent did manage to make good his escape before the merde hit le ventilateur , and with his valseuses intact!
Om mani padme hum!
osho has always been repeating again and again that woman’s number one enemy to conquer is jealousy and man’s is ego. This time he is again using the opportunity. Because we have no ears to listen, no eyes to see as Jesus says. Masters have to hammer simple sutras on his unconscious disciples again and again out of compassion using every opportunity through stories or questions. This is nothing special or serious, take it easy.
Nothing special or serious? , though Osho is saying that two communes he used every part of his energy to create were ruined by female jealousy. Not really, one could say, a small matter.
Parmartha,
Is this a case of where size matters ?
In Ko Hsuan we had the condom box freely available for nightly tantric surrendering. If people get their rocks off earler in a healthy way, surely then our sexual therefore emotive development is at least familiar, out there and known.
This isn’t a template for all , just a memory of how we once looked at the origins of abuse, inferiority, and impenetrable agendas as a result of deformed unadressed issues going back to one’s parenting et al.
Not sure of your meaning, Martyn.
Well jealousy is not an item borne of nothing or invention… it has its own sources surely.. Just expanding it from the usual boxed-in labelling that comes casually to all in the spiritopsycho trade, as a form of ‘oh yes of course ‘ we know if you just name something the problem goes away…. usually thats just the beginning of translating understanding into liberatory praxis.
Looks like the ‘Garbler Dicktum’, SN’s very own version of the ‘Gabbla Dictum’ bird, (Space Patrol- Uk Tv, 1962 onwards), has managed to get out of its cage again!
he also has said there is nothing in this world to be taken seriously, only be serious about jokes.
If communes like Osho was an every day occurrence like industries develop and get closed, firms rise and get bankrupt; there was nothing to mourn. There are always replacements.
Who wants to mourn for Orkut or Nokia?
As one can see in the following 25 years after Osho´s death( I am tired from the flowery language of leaving the body), no human being has taken such a similar endeavour to work for changing the inner software of us human beings.
This is the reason, Osho is and will remain my Hero No. 1
He is the icon who dared to dream something unique, he is the one who gathered us; from us I mean world´s most sceptical people.
Shame is also on us. We never appreciated our past and we are unable to leave a better legacy behind.
“This is nothing special or serious, take it easy.” — Avinashi
Beloved Avinashi, I agree 100%
“Not really, one could say, a small matter.” — Parmartha
Only if you have some notion of how things should have gone. When you live as if live has a purpose and you have expectations about how things should go, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Osho was simply commenting on how things went in Pune 1 and the Ranch, and then Osho put women in charge again in Pune 2. It is the dance of life.
“I know quite well that it is JEALOUSY AND FEAR which prompted the decline of Osho´s work.” — Shantam
This must be SERIOUS, now that we are using ALL CAPS! LOL! Osho’s “work” MUST go on! LOL!
Lighten up, Shantam. We are involved in a beautiful ecstatic dance of joy and celebration with a Master who has set us free from Western disease of seriousness. It is about play, not “work.” To live, love, and laugh and feel gratitude for Osho in the here-now, in the depth of your being: that is the incarnation of Osho’s “work.”
“It is very difficult, particularly for the Western mind, to understand that life is purposeless. And it is beautiful that it is purposeless. If it is purposeful then the whole thing becomes absurd – then who will decide the purpose? Then some God has to be conceived who decides the purpose, and then human beings become just puppets; then no freedom is possible. And if there is some purpose then life becomes businesslike, it cannot be ecstatic.
The West has been thinking in terms of purpose, but the East has been thinking in terms of purposelessness. The East says life is not a business, it is a play. And a play has no purpose really, it is nonpurposeful. Or you can say play is its own purpose, to play is enough. Life is not reaching towards some goal, life itself is the goal. It is not evolving towards some ultimate; this very moment, here and now, life is ultimate.” — Osho, Vedanta: Seven Steps to Samadhi
Not learning from one’s mistakes – Osho said quite often this amounted to foolishness. You are quoting Osho, but he can be quoted against himself.
I claim responsibility for my own view. I met people in life who made recurrent mistakes, and went on repeating them in relationships, even in practical work, and in communes, and they end up all over the emotional or other shops.
It is great to make mistakes, otherwise we will never learn, but only a fool repeats the same mistake. And it is done a great deal. The category of seriousness does not apply. Equanimity only arises when one gets that, and that quality is important before anything else can happen in moving beyond oneself.
Actually Osho had a male Secretary (Yoga Chinmayo as I recall) in his very early work, pre 1970.) It is arguably that his work now has two male secretaries and has had since 1990!
“You are quoting Osho, but he can be quoted against himself.” — Parmartha
Not really. I have heard this from many sannyasins and it is not true.
Yes, there are isolated instances where Osho intentionally contradicts himself because the sannyasin in front of him asking a question needs to be shaken up. But in general Osho does not contradict himself and cannot be quoted against himself. On insignificant things like “does God exist?” Osho intentionally gave contradictory answers, because it doesn’t really matter. Whatever your belief, beliefs are an obstacle.
In my post I quoted Osho saying life does not have a purpose, life is not serious, life is playful and sannyasins are to celebrate, dance, love, and laugh. I can find hundreds, if not thousands, of quotes with the same message from Osho.
Did Osho ever, even once, say life is a serious affair to be taken seriously while wearing a sad face, refusing to love, and avoiding laughter?
See what I mean? It is false that Osho has said the opposite and contradicted himself. About his central message he is very consistent and logical. If you attend to his message, you will see that. If you attend to the silence between the words, even more is revealed.
Saying Osho can be quoted against himself is just an easy out, a way to conveniently ignore anything that makes you uncomfortable, or even to ignore Osho’s words altogether, or as a way to discredit someone quoting Osho.
Osho had a message of celebration, love, and laughter. He did not have an opposite message. He did not contradict himself on that. Osho cannot be quoted against himself on his central message.
Sounds dangerously close to the Master can never be wrong to me, Mr Kabir 1440.
Dear Kabir, but what happens with love,life laughter when you are down in the dumps? You can laugh and celebrate it, but before you know the other side turns up again! Always on the wip/wap. I think being awake can have the flavour of love and laughter, beauty,wisdom,and even pain,but there is nobody to care anymore one way or another. That raises the question was there still a somebody in Osho that did’nt want pain?
Sounds like a “who is it that knows that there is no ego?” job,to me….
Overheard chat at my favourite pub,
the ‘ Inn in the Air ‘..
”I am you, as you are me…
….
but that bloke in the corner there, who is he ?”.
tometoo!
Where is Osho NOW? Has he become one with the Source,in a bodiless state? Then surely he is not Osho anymore as a person, but Osho just, oceanic. It’s so strange that we still refer to Osho as a person, Osho said this. or that…………. He said himself after his death, we should see him in everything, meaning as i presume Osho as Source, in everything,but then you can scrap Osho, Jezus or Budha for that matter. In the end we are alone. So can all the awakened one who have passed away still be with us in a nameless way,just as That? Yes i think so,but why then cling to the name? I also read somewhere that the Jezus that some people have revelations or channel,is a part of the Christconsciousness called Jezus that is installed in the astral plane just for this reason, for people who need psychic.spiritual proof, maybe the same for Osho and Buddha, well hmmmm……, just some pondering of the mind on this sunday mornin.
So Osho is now Like Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, Rama And Krishna..
Enjoy your company dear Osho. Your followers have given you the status of all the dummy gods!
Great Achievement Sir!
Shantam, how come you think, Osho could speak so well on all the the “other”Gods in disguise?
This is what I am protesting. Osho has himself placed in the company of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna.
Others may laugh but this is what He says and disciples therefore can not play smartass to put him in the category of resort and gold course developers.
´
Therefore it is an emotionally legitimate thing to celebrate Osho festivals like ‘Happy Birthday, Jesus’, ‘Happy Birthday, Krishna’ and so on.
One of the reason Sannyas looks like flowers on discount price is because disciples are too clever to quote Osho to protect their own mind, own territory.
We are non-violent Jihadis quoting our holy book.
So you want to follow the habits and customs of other established religions, Shantam? Do you ever stop to perceive how degenerate, how lacking in truth, how essentially dead or dying they are, how much they have been and are a significant force for what might be termed ‘evil’?
I’m afraid for me this sort of comment alone is enough to convince me that you’re just too hooked into the basic mindset of the traditional Indian, respecting and even revering the outer practices, the surface show, rather than what it’s supposed to be all about (eg ‘the flight of the alone to the alone’).
“…I claim responsibility for my own view…”
YES
Parmartha, everybody here does claim that – obviously ;
meeting at a ´caravanserai´s ´place and space, dedicated to friends and dedicated to sannyas and Osho, the art of sharing from life´ s spiritual journey is in constant change and may be transforming to the better – more friendliness ,
who knows – may be loosing more and more of hostility or self appointed ´righteousness´and other luggage….
I have been gratefully busy these last days to look out (in the net) for some ´sherpas´i know personally like american Nishant and also Nivedano ,
and a ´sherpa´I don´t know personally like dutch Daan van Kampenhout.
Why to I poste that here ? and to you in particially?
Its just , that I have been touched by your contribution responding to Kabir and I felt familiar to what you responded to the sometimes ´silencing approach´
of the ´love-life- laughter´ concept, sometimes silencing those , who´s tears or instincts of a ´wrong going ´ have to be brought to the collective heart as well.
Hence – the ´sherpas´ , they are not only to be found in Himalayian heights.
Nishant is a such one and I leave my recommend to listen to him (to be found in conscious Tv under the title ´Finding compassion with yourself ´).
His book about friendship i would also like to recommend here.
It may be helping to find another ´tone´here sometimes.
Daan – the one i become a little more acquainted with – deals with collective souls (family as clans as up to the meetings in a universal realm) and deals in a broader way with ´family constellations´ , and especially with the denied parts in and of a collective (and the ways that resurrects ever and ever again and often in such utter painful ways ).
I am more or less conciously yearning quite often to find another way to deal – not only with my ´own´traumatic experiences but also with the collective ones which i am a particle of (like anybody).
Grateful about some ´caravanserai´- like this here, bringing up ´stuff´as Fresh liked to put it.
I wish you very well this sunday september moment from here – dark clouded rainy sky and autumn in the air for quite some weeks already –
this is the wheel of that, and I am freezing little bit.
And all the warmth have to be felt inside.
Madhu
I suppose I am closer to the wisdom that there is a time to cry, and a time to laugh, and a time to be considered, and a time to let go, and many other such “times to”.!
AND finding one’s own feet to know when each is right is the vital other constituent that the Bible does not mention!
The present discontents for example about the so-called state of the ashram/commune/resort seem to me to be a time to be “light”, and not heady serious like many Arun and Keerti sannyasins, as if there really was something at stake.
On the other hand to ignore any clear lessons/mistakes from the past, whether they be personal, commune, scientific or metaphysical seems so much nonsense to me, and clearly need not be considered “serious”. It is just a matter of common sense and equanimity.
PS
we are left under the OPEN SKY
and we were looking for that, didn ´t we
and that means to be exposed to all kind of sheathers , and these times are quite stormy to seems.
Hence – to develop the art of friendship – is a challenge
Surrender to one’s received understanding of the insight offered in a unified field of consciousness, or availability to one another .
I don’t believe in that there is an empirical wrong.. just outcomes..and strategies… and describable-ility of the context…. that I resent something or that it is objectively repugnant by the degenerate effect it has , is rarely part of the type of the scenarios we represent… unless you choose them or they choose you..The fact that Osho deliberately manufactured obeisance,with all the stupidities involved,whilst speaking of liberation, was obviously discordant.. intentional or otherwise. However the net outcome involved was closer to an adventurous and immersed life, full of the language of mistakes, failures, betrayal and successes, than most people require or look for. A bit like life but maybe a teensy weensy bit more fun than the average 9-5 and more alert than corporate numbing. Not because that numbing is not also part of rote sannyas but because raising two fingers to the grand master flash was or could be yours too , if you want it, for your own purpose and development. Or not.Its not definable a priori.
Ps the mods sometimes don’t let my rib tickling piss traking through , so that its mostly my more conscientious stuff gets through.. I haven’t suddenly become Wittgenstein, just that my bumper annual comic book stuff doesn’t always pass muster at Skynas News Headquarters.
Thank you for your little report , Frank,
left me …. uuuuuhhhh (small sister-outburst from yabooh….)
And yes, i can relate to that , even living in Bavaria…. believe it or not.
Madhu
…”spiritopsycho trade, as a form of ‘oh yes of course ‘ we know if you just name something the problem goes away…. usually thats just the beginning of translating understanding into liberatory praxis.”
loved, what you mention herewith , Prem Martyn
and reminding me the Zen approach :
- always to have a BEGINNERS ´mind´ – looking as fresh as can be – a-new
on seemingly ´old stories´
Madhu
Genau, …
“Sounds dangerously close to the Master can never be wrong to me, Mr Kabir 1440.” — Parmartha
Many times Osho said he is fallible, an ordinary man. Osho is consistent on this point. You cannot find a counter-quote where Osho contradicts himself and says he is infallible. Saints, saviors, and popes might claim to be infallible, but not Osho. I am so in love with my fallible, ordinary friend named Osho, a Master of Masters.
Osho never spoke of his fallability until September, 1985 and after the collapse of the Sheela regime.
He dealt with the matter in the following way: no mention was made of whether he was fallible or infallible before that time. But because he never brought the matter up, many assumed he was omniscient and had so-called spiritual powers. Even that he could “see” everything that was going on in a disciple’s mind, and that he could bi-locate. He could have chosen to deride these fictional powers when they were gossiped about, but he never did. Such powers are transferred by the disciple onto the guru to the extent that they are perceived of as God, and therefore cannot make mistakes. It was a common view before 1985.
“Osho never spoke of his fallability until September, 1985 and after the collapse of the Sheela regime.” — Parmartha
Beloved Parmartha, Osho has been consistent throughout his life about his fallibility, including before Sheela and before 1985.
Osho did not omit saying anything about his fallibility in order to trick anyone, run a power trip, or let people think he was infallible, as you say. Osho has always been up front about being an ordinary natural man, before Sheela, before 1985.
Just one example, so as not to burden SN… from 1979:
BELOVED MASTER, ARE YOU FALLIBLE?
“Nityam, I am not the pope of the Vatican — I am not infallible. I enjoy fallibility. And Buddha was not
infallible and Jesus was not infallible. Only these stupid popes, they started claiming to be infallible,
because they wanted to dominate, they wanted to exploit people. I have no desire to dominate anybody, I
have no desire to exploit anybody. I have no desire at all.
Fallibility is natural; infallibility is unnatural.”
– Osho, The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha, Vol 8, Chapter #11, Question 2
I am not sure how much you were a
“around” Osho between 1974 and 1985 Kabir. You may have been. I certainly was.
He often played with the Pope’s infallibility as a source of humour or scorn, but any emphasis or mention of he himself having made specific mistakes and those mistakes being detailed, only began to appear after Sheela left in 1985.
Actually “disciples” often talked up Osho as having siddhic powers between 1974 and 85, for example bi-location and always knowing what others thought,etc, which always lend a guru the vibe of divine freedom from human error.
Osho could have spoken to these “trends” in his disciples views of him, but never did. No Socratic tradition of civilised mutual criticism existed in a commune based on an unsophisticated version of “surrender”, and this laid the bed rock for the errors that finally led to the collapse of the commune.
We seem to have been sitting in the same place and hearing different things. You must have been focused on other disciples’ esoteric bullshit. Now you describe Osho as some kind of manipulator who, by omission, let people believe he was supernatural and infallible (though he never said that). And what is worse, you continue to present that view on SN today.
I, on the other hand, heard a different message, one that was consistent from the 60′s to the 70′s to the 80′s and it was from an ordinary man living naturally. I could find lots of quotes (quotes that do not have counter-quotes, quotes before Sheela, before 1985) which refute what you are saying about Osho.
Here is a consistent theme Osho spoke on for three decades, this one from 1974:
“I myself say I don’t know; you cannot come across a more ignorant man than me. There is no truth and there is no way. I have not reached anywhere, I am simply here and now. If you can follow this ignorant man your mind will drop. For the mind always follows knowledge, and when the mind drops there is no need to go anywhere. Everything is available, has been available always; you have never missed it. But just because of your seeking of the future, of the goal, you cannot look. The truth surrounds you, you exist in it.” –Osho, A Bird on the Wing, Chapter #2
Does that sound like Osho was tricking disciples into thinking he was supernatural or omniscient or that they needed to seek “enlightenment”? He was constantly telling disciples they didn’t even need him. He was creating any kind of relationship or dependency.
Did you perhaps miss (or reject) Osho when he spoke of dropping the mind? Were you sitting in the front row? Does your ego have some need to feel superior or find blame (as if an intellectual Socratic mutual criticism is superior to dropping the mind)?
Osho was clear and open, and if disciples wanted to create all kinds of supernatural bullshit around Osho, you cannot now blame Osho for their actions.
Osho was clear for three decades speaking millions of words in public venues. He was not hiding anything. He shared his loving presence. If a disciple was actually with him, the esoteric bullshit instantly faded away. But it was possible to be in the front row and miss him.
For the record 1440 I was never in the front row, and never ever wanted to be.
But as they say in football I mixed it in the stands!
I did not miss Osho, but I dont make him almost into a God, which your prose seems to make him.
Socrates in my view was as enlightened as the next man. It is surprisingly empowering to think for oneself, irrespective of whomsoever you meet, and that was Socrates’ way.
Had the communes been more Socratic there is no way things would have turned out as they did.
Osho’s silence and the socratic method would have been a perfect blend. One does not exclude the other.
Very interesting, Parmartha. Thank you for your candid summary of the commune’s demise… it makes a lot of sense. I really like it when people who were around then, tell those of us who weren’t, how it really was…..warts ‘n’ all!
With regards to Osho’s supposed supernatural powers and infallibility, all I can say is I didn’t turn up in Pune until 2002, but there were then still a significant number of pilgrims knocking around (as there probably are now), who believed both were true. Unfortunately, religious trippers will believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts.
There was a lot of esoteric bullshit around Osho in Poona 1 particularly, this was because of the publication of some translated Indian discourses which went into the whole tableau of Hindu esotericism, and which were widely read at the time.
1440 seems to have been sitting there just drinking in whatever he conceived as the pure wine, and presumably not hanging out much in the Cafe de Lite!
I dispute 1440′s suggestion that I consider Osho was manipulative. Actually, I think he was a bit innocent sometimes, and also I dont think in some ways he was so ‘interested’ in us disciples.
Sorry bout the video ..I also saw it was bbc blocked and all the youtube links have disappeared from just a few months ago.. The only solution to go to an RaR download site ,perhaps 4shared for example and just type the title.. ‘Leaping tigers naked nagas’ and download the full bbc series or episode ..or use torrentz.. There are other docs on the Mosuo on youtube.. A google vid search and wiki will tell their story. Hope that’s sufficient for avid netters here on Sn.
BBC series. . Himalaya.. with Michael Palin
Kabir 1440 has questioned in this string the well held view that Osho often talked convincingly both for and against many topics of discussion at different times, and that he was gloriously inconsistent.
I always held the view that there was a sort of intent about this, as it meant we could never just be Bible bashers after his demise, or even whilst he was alive. What he said showed great oratory and skill, but actually his silence was of such enormity that it outshone anything he said.
Has anyone at SN the energy to delineate Osho’s contradictions?
It is a well established norm all over the world during all the ages, ” Don´t go too much behind the words. Look at the actions of the persons.”
OSHO, ARE YOU INFALLIBLE?
Thomas V. Kempis, I am infallibly fallible! First, I am not a perfectionist because to me perfectionism is the root cause of all neurosis. Unless humanity gets rid of the idea of perfection it is never going to be sane.
The very idea of perfection has driven the whole of mankind to a state of madness. To think in terms of
perfection means you are thinking in terms of ideology, goals, values, shoulds, should-nots. You have a
certain pattern to fulfil and if you fall from the pattern you will feel immensely guilty, a sinner. And the
pattern is bound to be such that you cannot achieve it. If you can achieve it then it will not be of much value to the ego.
So the intrinsic quality of the perfectionist ideal is that it should be unattainable, only then is it worth
attaining. You see the contradiction? And that contradiction creates a schizophrenia: you are trying to do the impossible, which you know perfectly well is not going to happen — it cannot happen in the very nature of things. If it can happen then it is not much of a perfection; then anybody can do it. Then there is not much ego nourishment in it: your ego cannot chew on it, cannot grow on it. The ego needs the impossible — and the impossible, by its very nature, is not going to happen. So only two alternatives are left: one is, you start feeling guilty. If you are innocent, simple, intelligent, you will start feeling guilty -and guilt is a state of sickness.
I am not here to create any guilt in you. My whole effort is to help you to get rid of all guilt. The moment you are free of guilt, rejoicing bursts forth. And guilt is rooted in the idea of perfection.
Osho.
The Goose is Out
Chapter #5
Chapter title: Perfectly imperfect
5 March 1981 am in Buddha Hall
“If you are innocent,simple,intelligent, you will start feeling guilty”…………………so compassionate, so without judgement!
Likeisay, Osho was in the Mahakashyapasyougoalong lineage.
He just held up the flower and said whatever popped into his head.
It`s probably true that he was like a regular guy reading the paper and shooting shit in the pub when he went on a rap about birds that had been giving him grief,politicians,Gadaffi ,Stalin,idiots,retards and the like,but that was the chaff and central vibe of celebration and `there is only here and now` was the wheat
wasn’t it?
To tie up a couple of threads,I believe that may have been the motto of the afore-mentioned Tibetan-seducing libidinous crazy-wisdom French hippy:
“prendre le meilleur et laisser le reste”
(Take the best and leave the rest.)
Dear Parmartha, you write: “Silence was of such enormity, that it outshone anything he said” or in our case,anything we say. But is the so called inconsistency not an interpretation of the mind, that it only means that a coin has 2 sides? And that silence was the third force,or turya as he called it? And maybe the contradictions are in the silence? Oh dear, if i live up to that, there is no point in arguing or discussing anylonger………..
CORRECTION
He was constantly telling disciples they didn’t even need him. He was not creating any kind of relationship or dependency.
Oh yes , Arpana, the quote you chose can hardly be topped (like mostly)
and thank you for this -
and ? I remember incidents in the big tribal gatherings..
for example…the moment He spoke good of the Thieves and Master Thieves.. the amount of robberies in the Ashram went up high , feeling free to enjoy this Just to be followed next days , when He spoke about limited or expanded ways of Understanding … Misunderstandings (!) and so on –
And ever again in this context I am reminded about what he spoke about ´Freedom and Licenciousness´
A very Living Orchestra Life is – and no piece really ever to be repeated of the composition, even when we look at the seemingly replications which materialize.
So the Geese are out, aren ´t they…. and so much music and chat and all kinds of actions.
And today´s morning , I really loved Prem Martyn´s report from his visit of his favorite , fabulous pub ´Inn in the Air´.
And honoring the Silence where that all comes from and is disappearing into again (and honoring also the special family tribal union flavor this website is dedicated to)
Love
Madhu
Frank, that reminds me..
Non, rien de rien,
non, je ne regrette rien….
One of Osho’s favourite Parisian-boulevard Karaoke numbers, surely…or am I mystiken ?.
Bordel de merde!
Tu as raison,mec.
Mais,n`oublie pas
La vie en rose..
Ya_oo!
Here is home vids of the Socratics enquiries club and Ouzeria letting their hair down afta agreeing to disagree consistently, as per the membership regulatoryships.
Opppaaaa.. !
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=_X1b_hgKzaU
And what do you respond to, guys, that HIS private Living space has been bugged on the ranch ?
That came up this morning again (like again and again and as utter painful too)
The clear and simple fact , being betrayed this way (and there must have been some who worked on it as technicians from the sangha , who on the other hand stood the in ´jubilate`along the road during so called ´Drive by´.
It belongs thoroughly to a `Jealousy Thread´doesn ´t it ?
We don´t have an Edward Snowdon in the own rows , obviously – what a pity; and also the óverhearings of Prem Martyn´s in his favorite pub -as far as I came (not) to know , did not lighten that up a little bit.
I refer herewith to what Parmartha shared with us all about “disciples” in the beginning of this virtual thread wave lengths .
For me,when I came to know – late – that – and other stuff, I could have never imagined that such could have had happened, it is up to this day very painful and
traumatic , i can say -
how do you respond – if at all – to that fact in particular ?
in context of jealousy and other ´inconveniences´ ?
Madhu
PS
be compassionate: please spare me in this one just to give it a big laughter – if you are not concerned, just forget it
Parmarthesis Socratic Dialogues No1
‘So when was the last time you were consistentiki , ne ? Me ol proselyticos bloggerethiou chaps?
And for how longs ,innit ?
Cricket, bloody crazies if you ask me not even Olympics cos iss rubbeessh and too polites.
Oops must dash cos the Copsicos are coming… time for some of that Olleander juice.. toodle pipsicos….
yeeehaaaa
He was telling his disciples don´t miss me.
(book I chapter 3)
He was constantly telling his disciples, ” Break the bridges when you pass. If you don´t break, it can create Indo china war.
(book 2, chapter 3)
He was telling, ” I am no one´s guru. No one is my disciple. I am guest. These people are my host.”
(Book 3, chapter 5)
He also told his disciples, ” When I die. let me down. But for God´s sake, don´t use past tense with me.”
(Ipod recording of a disciple.)
During last five thousand years, religious people have developed the mastery to be better pastors than disciples.
If Jehovah the witness people do good karmas, God will give them the birth as sannyasins. So many bibles to quote. So many bibles!
Wow.. Yuppie
I seem to have upset some kind of established sannyasin orthodoxy. Seems the “old man” is a “rascal” and his words can be safely ignored … because he “contradicted” himself all the time. How convenient for all.
“It is a well established norm all over the world during all the ages, ” Don´t go too much behind the words. Look at the actions of the persons.” — Shantam
Osho sat in his chair … not doing actions. He always said he was a lazy man. He praised laziness. Words effortlessly flowed through him.
I challenge anyone to find a counter-quote where Osho condemned laziness. Find where Osho said what was really important was to spend 60 hours a week in the office … engaged in “actions” to change the world … to make it “better” … LOL!
It might help if people had a more intimate acquaintance with Osho during the 50′s and 60′s. Most of SN seems to be reflecting post-1974 Pune 1 experience. Oh, yes, in Pune 1 it was all poetry and beautiful and Osho spoke comfortingly of all the traditions. Of course he did. He was engaged in seduction (while totally continuing to respect everyone’s freedom). Things changed in Pune 2 when Osho had his people and out came Nietzsche and Zen. God was no where to be found.
Once you know the Osho of the 50′s and 60′s you will see the golden thread of consistency in his message and not be blinded by the petty inconsistencies: (God exists (70s), no God does not exist (80s) … LOL!
HOW CAN I TELL THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ‘NONDOING’ AND BEING LAZY… AND IF ‘FLOATING’ –HOW TO MAKE DECISIONS?
IT IS not difficult. Both have different tastes, and very clear-cut, very distinct. When you are lazy, it is a negative taste — you simply feel you have no energy, you simply feel dull; you simply feel sleepy, you simply feel dead. When you are in a state of non-doing then you are full of energy — it is a very positive taste. You have full energy, overflowing. You are radiant, bubbling, vibrating. You are not sleepy, you are perfectly aware. You are not dead — you are tremendously alive.
So there is not a problem. You can just check in, and always continue to check. There is a possibility the mind can deceive you: it can rationalize laziness as non-doing. It can say “I have become a Zen master” or “I believe in Tao” — but you arc not deceiving anybody else. You will be deceiving only yourself. So be alert.
When you are lazy you will know it certainly. It is like a headache: how do you know when you have a headache? and when you don’t have? You will say you simply know. It is self-evident. In the same way it is self-evident: if you are lazy you will feel sleepy, in a stupor — no energy to do anything, no energy to be creative, no energy to go anywhere. Remember: no energy is the basic taste.
When you are in a non-doing state, you are so full of energy that you want to go somewhere, but nowhere to go. The difference is not no energy but nowhere to go. You are so radiant, but what to do? You are sitting there overflowing. The energy goes on welling up, and goes on cleansing you, as if you are under a shower of energy — fresh, you have taken a bath just now; sharp, intelligent, aware. The taste will tell you.
Osho.
A Sudden Clash of Thunder
Chapter #8
Chapter title: Choicelessness is Bliss
18 August 1976 am in Buddha Hall
Hard work is needed to attain to grace but the real thing finally happens only because of grace. This is a paradox. It is difficult to understand it. Because of this paradox millions of people have lost their-way.
There are a few who say — and they are very logical, their logic is impeccable — there are a few who say that if it comes only by their effort then why bother about grace and God? If it happens only by their effort, then okay, they will make all the effort, they will make it happen. So they don’t talk about grace or God.
They will miss, because it never happens only by your own effort.
Then there are people who say that if it happens only by grace and never happens by our own effort, then why bother? We should wait — and whenever God wills it, it is going to happen.
They both miss. One misses because of egoism — ‘Only my effort is enough. Only I am enough’ — the other misses because of laziness, lethargy. Both miss.
Osho.
The Art of Dying
Chapter #5
Chapter title: Peasant Wisdom
15 October 1976 am in Buddha Hall
WHY ARE THE ASHRAMITE SANNYASINS NOT ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN ALL THE MEDITATIONS? WHY ARE THEY TOLD TO PARTICIPATE IN ONLY ONE MEDITATION EVERY DAY?
It is because of you, ladies and gentlemen. It is because of your laziness. I go on talking about non-doing and my text becomes your pretext. Non-doing has nothing to do with laziness. In fact, a lazy person can never move into non-doing. A lazy person is almost suicidal. He is closed; his energy is not flowing. A non-doer is a flowing person: alive.
Osho.
Come Follow To You, Vol 2
Chapter #4
Chapter title: Are You The Greatest Master?
3 November 1975 am in Buddha Hall
Kabir: “I challenge anyone to find a counter-quote where Osho condemned laziness.”
There might not be such a quote and I don’t care if there is or isn’t. One thing is for sure, laziness did not fit into Osho’s framework as to how to run a commune. One could be lazy if one wished but laziness was not a desired human quality when it came to building up his/our communes. In Poona 1 I occasionally had weeks where I worked 14 hours a day, seven days a week. It was fun and challenging. If you did not like it you were out.
Osho may have claimed to be lazy and maybe he was on certain levels. But anyone who thinks Osho’s discourses simply poured out of his mouth spontaneously is simply stupid. He gathered information, studied cutting-edge concepts, kept abreast of the times and was utterly brilliant at using other people’s ideas and presenting them as his own, without a mention of their original authors. A supreme plagiarist, presenting as new and original ideas or products derived from existing sources. Not to mention him sitting night after night in darshan, listening to often repetitive trips about relationships, anger, should I go West? etc. On that level he had the patience of a saint, although he was not one.
I don’t go for the I am the world’s laziest man number, because it required great effort to do what he did…an effort that many seem to miss. The man was a powerhouse and he kept it up for decades. He must have enjoyed it or why else bother? Because of his compassion for us mere mortals…Gimme a break, Jimmy.
Lokesh wrote: “….because of his compassion for us mere mortals…gimme a break jimmy.”
Nice one Cyril …… it oozes the necessary sarcasm, disdain and disbelief. I can see that you are keeping up the tradition of Burns et al!
In Pune, these days they like to use the tite-arsed, high-fallutin’ word ‘extemporaneous’ instead of spontaneous. I suspect the Deputy Headmaster (Amrito), chose it, but could not say for sure. Whatever, the claim that the talks were completely ‘off the cuff’, has never sounded convincing to me….. partly, maybe?
Yes, Osho was undoubtedly a great plagiarist, and as I am sure most of us here are aware, the tradition still lives on within the Osho world. This attribute, however, reminds me of an experience I had in my first year at college. I was having difficulty in putting together an essay, so I decided to ask my mate who was in the 2nd year for some help, and he gave me a printed sheet which summarised the salient points for the required task (this had been produced by the lecturer who had set the essay).
Naturally, I exceedingly fleshed this document out with a load of me ol’ and other bullshit, in an attempt to disguise the source. I did not go far enough ! When I got my essay back it came with a fresh copy of the printed summary sheet I had cribbed with the following comment:
“I think you have seen this before! Never mind! You have shown initiative in using all available sources of information to complete the task I set. Well done!”
I reckon you’re presenting an inaccurate version of Osho’s attitude to “laziness” and work, Kabir1440.
For a start, there is a quote I have read – but exactly where, I don’t know, perhaps from a Darshan Diary – where he speaks approvingly of “the glow” on the faces of older people who have worked hard during their lives, demonstrating that such a way of life is desirable, not, as you say, something to be denigrated.
Furthermore, I also clearly recall him saying that simply idling around, without focus, without putting one’s energy into something, leads to an atrophy of one’s energy and is definitely not to be recommended.
Then of course, the examples of the work regimes at his very communes, both in Poona and America. I mean, what further evidence is required?Perhaps you’re so stuck in the ‘Acharya’ of 50′s and 60′s that this has eluded you?!
I also recall him telling one or two people in darshan that their current lifestyles weren’t “good” because they weren’t using their energy for anything much, just ‘hanging around’.
And I myself, when authorised to edit a book of his discourses, was urged – in a most friendly way – to “work hard!”
But really, isn’t all this just a matter of common sense? Citing 60 hours a week in an office job is being disingenuous, missing the point.
Most people thrive more easily when involved in work of some kind, even if they’re officially retired or unemployed, and they spend their time on other pursuits rather than nothing much. While others, a quite small minority I think, are genuinely ok in a more passive lifestyle, “lazy”, if you like (at least outwardly). And maybe those close to a major spiritual breakthrough tend to slow right down, sometimes for lengthy periods, even to a virtual halt?
I recall one English guy I knew from London, for instance, being advised by Osho to go on the dole when he got back to London. (Eventually, the chap in question did a remarkable about-turn, renouncing sannyas and taking up a very conventional lifestyle, a ‘proper job’, wife, kids etc. Interestingly enough, one evening in Pune he told me that he’d been totally freaked out by the third stage of the Kundalini meditation, felt he was dying, and vowed to never do it again. I had a vaguely similar weird experience once where I felt I might be “going mad” and that I might faint, but in darshan Bhagwan simply said, smiling , “Ok, just faint – it’s not madness, it’s something else.” That never occurred again).
“I reckon you’re presenting an inaccurate version of Osho’s attitude to “laziness” and work, Kabir1440.” — Satyadeva
You are right, Satyadeva. Osho said of himself that he is lazy. Then he said of others that they should work. Then he said that some can be lazy while others work. I love the contradictions!
“In fact a commune that does not have lazy people will be a little less rich than other communes which have a few lazy people who do nothing but meditate, who do nothing but go on playing on their guitar while others are toiling in the fields. A little more human outlook is needed; these people are not useless. They may not seem to be productive of commodities, but they are producing a certain joyful, cheerful atmosphere. Their contribution is meaningful and significant.” Osho, The Golden Future, ch.#24
Kabir1440 has always been one of the lazy ones…all my life.
Yahoo!
“If you are innocent,simple,intelligent, you will start feeling guilty”…………………so compassionate, so without judgement!”
Karima,
it´s good to know about the ´double bind approach´
helps but a little bit (not always) when you are a grown up, but for a child it is devastating, sure.
Any psychopath likes to apply it, to destroy another human being;
YET it is said that it is sometimes also the ZEN Master´s approach to stop the mind –
Was it you who said the other day , take it easy, -but sometimesit is not easy to take ? when you remembered the lecture series ?
Anyway , have a good evening in good company , WITHOUT any double bindings.
Madhu
Madhu, i saw it in the context of Osho’s words, that ego tries to do the impossible, and that is, to match itself to God (or whatever you want to call It). In fact, it pretends to be God and pushes us harder and harder ( the seeker’s quest) to attain, but always in the future! In the end, if we push hard enough, we feel that we have utterly failed, and of course that’s what it’s meant to be.
This is what Osho calls “the hard work”. We have to feel an utter failure before Grace can come in! Of course we feel guilty, it’s part of the package.
So hearing his words I felt touched, because in the past I did feel guilty about it, And then push even harder to “attain”, and that included also my own inquiries and meditations.
And dynamic meditation is a practical metaphor for that pushing, taking it to the limit, But for me it went only so far, in the end it was seeing that I don’t have to rid myself of pain, meaning the pain of being separate, but to allow more and more Grace into that pain, until they have merged.
You win, Arpana!
Oh, what a pickle!
I’m thinking of not doing anything about it.
“In your life you have been doing everything. You have been taught from your childhood, “Do it! Go for it! Put your whole energy into it!” And I am asking something just the opposite. Please don’t do it! Doing is going to be your undoing! Just rest, relax. Don’t even bother whether the grass is growing or not. Forget all about grass! Your responsibility is to relax, so you can be a pure mirror. And you know perfectly well everything goes on moving, there is no need to push.” — Osho, From Death to Deathlessness, ch. 7
I would have posted more,
but I’m too lazy.
dear Arpana,
when you are not just giving your address for the many Osho quotes,
in that gap then –
is it allowed to ask, how your everyday life looks like ?
I mean , without an umbrella which is not yours ,
so – just Arpana , practizing , what is IN the quotes – in everyday life ?
in the Here-Now
Sharing then about ´Arpana ; I would be very interested , to hear/read of you.
Madhu
Get up about 7.00.A.M.
shop and eat every day.
Write everyday.
Mess about with my computer every day,
Paint every day.
Go for walks every day,
Spend time with friends some days.
Read every day. A lot.
Watch a film a week maybe.
A bit of TV most days. Maybe an hour a day.
Cooking and cleaning.
Go to the launderette mostly once a week.
Exercise every day
Read Osho every day.
Meditate some every day.
Spend a lot of time with me, tuning to my inner life.
Talk a little to acquaintances, neighbors, people in shops, at bus stops most days.
Bed about 11.30.PM.
You’re not thinking of making a short film for Youtube dubbed into French, filmed in black and white with subtitles and silence-filled longeurs…. Frank might be able to help..and Parmartha could play the Greek philosopher standing at the bus stop for ages, arguing with himself…over the inconsistency of the timetable…
I was actually in an existentialist black-and-white film, shot at my then studio. (Was monochrome and nobody was interested after it was finished. That’s how you can tell it was existentialist).
There seems to be one thing missing here, Arpana!
At what you do for living, Mr. Arpana?
May I ask you , Kabir, what is your interest in addressing people posting in Sannyas News caravanserai , whom you more then less deny , having anything valuable to share , as they don´t have your ´ overview´ ?
And above that , your first four lines : “I seem to have upset some kind of established sannyasin orthodoxy. Seems the “old man” is a “rascal” and his words can be safely ignored … because he “contradicted” himself all the time. How convenient for all.” –
look and feel for me as a malicious allegation targeting many here present , may they ´young´, may they ´old´ . Or may they be confused sometimes .
And then I ask you, what is your kind of interest in those , who are confused , if you have any interest ?
Madhu
“May I ask you , Kabir, what is your interest in addressing people posting in Sannyas News caravanserai , whom you more then less deny , having anything valuable to share , as they don´t have your ´ overview´ ?” — Madhu
Beloved Madhu, thank you for your inquiry. Those posting here have much to contribute. My view is partial and may be erroneous. Maybe my ego is just asserting itself on SN. If so, then I apologize. Apparently I have been inconsiderate of everyone’s comfort, barging into the SN caravanserai and causing disturbance unnecessarily.
As to my interest, I am just enjoying writing these words, as a simple sannyasin, albeit one with an overview of Osho’s message that includes the 50s and 60s, not just Pune 1, Ranch, and Pune 2.
kabir, have you got this over view through reading books?
It seems quite bookish, if my observation is correct.
You can surely contradict.
You say: “kabir, have you got this over view through reading books? It seems quite bookish, if my observation is correct.” — Shantam
Beloved Shantam, no, not exclusively through books (I have since thrown my books into the fire), but thank you for the “bookish” compliment! Our Master was the quintessential bookman who took great care to see to it that hundreds of books of his words were published. Those books are still, today, invaluable as an invitation from Osho to those who never had the opportunity to walk with Osho when he was alive. Osho was both bookish and beyond bookish.
I thank existence I had the opportunity to walk with Osho when he had a physical presence. But any way to imbibe Osho’s nectar is a gift. I love the apparent “contradictions” found in Osho’s books, and I loved being with Osho in different physical venues, too.
One sannyasin is not superior because he sat with the Master, and another sannyasin is not inferior because he missed Osho in the physical body. As I said before, even sitting in the front row you could miss Osho. But if you are consumed by the flame of love as a result of reading Osho’s books, Sannyas is possible. Osho’s books are still very important because people fall in love with Osho through them and become sannyasins.
In any event, bookish is the perfect word for Osho. Thank you, Shantam!
“My old books are immensely important. Unless you understand them, you will not be able to understand me. But remember, it is a constant flow and change, so don’t be bothered with inconsistencies, contradictions.” — Osho, From the False to the Truth, ch.#11
Bathe in borrowed book knowledge! Surrender to the apparent “contradictions”! Enjoy the Mystery of it all! Tat Tvam Asi!
I love such posts..
Straight from heart.
Thanks a lot, Arpana ,
I can relate to that –
and ever could relate to the quotes you chose from the Master, too.
Anubuddha, when working on my body(ies) – sometimes said, ´aaah , lets look to the bag of flesh and bones; and we both laughed a friendly laughter´
so – there are many stuff which cannot be said , i know , but it´s just really nice, that you did put your response this way .
Madhu
“imme a break Jimmy”
Aaah, Lokesh, how beautiful, starting the day with a familiar laughter, about how you did put some stuff ‘straight’, does one say it like this in your language ?
Thank you,
Madhu
Thank you , Kabir , for responding -
You probably know much better than me the parable of how it went when many flies landed on different parts of an elephant´s body
(also to different times – and may be some of those even laid their eggs there had ´kids`and so on).
When meeting at a “congress” then told stories about what they have seen individually , so to say, and out came a variety of ´insights´and presumptions.
the Virtuallity of a caravanserai like this quite often reminds me – on that parable too – and we (entities) having the one or the other ´congress´of chatting about an issue given , which at any point where we are living coping as best as we can with so called ´everyday life´, stories inside as outside; hymn conditionings, aren ´t they this ?
Being able to meet some´body´ very experienced with a long life story and having seen and experienced much , needs to be honored, there is no question about it (from my side)
As always , it seems to me important to check out if there is happening a climate in ´congresses of this kind – with the good intention to come together and cooperate and at least try to see the ´other´in me, being myself seen by the ´other´ this way , a way, we more or less intentionally try to adopt in Meditation pratize.
It´s a long way short, a short way long.
And under some circumstances reminds me on the `elephant-parable´as well as on many other parables ; Osho like others , used, to make something clearer.
Another parable I also remember this morning ; it goes about a `school´, where many animals , all of very different types (and special skills) met in a class. They can be treated all ´equal´and what comes out of it is a mess. (“Intelligence of the Heart”, compilations about ´God and the World´ question and answers… being with Bhagwan/Osho, 1979)
Kabir, thank you for your appearance here.
And have a beautiful day, today.
Madhu
Yes, Madhu, yes!
The elephant story is the perfect example of how no one really has the whole picture. Thank you!
What we have is one Great Mystery that is wonderful! I enjoy the Mystery!
PS
Ever in Love of THIS,
a ´love-story´older than ´me´
sometimes i am unhappy; sometimes i am happy, and that is happening on quite another level – and sometimes i am loosing awareness of ´levels´too – and then i feel like a desperate fool
grateful, when i have the chance to meet fellow travellers ; who know about it by own life experience
Oh, thank you, Karima, to make that clearer for me what you had been up to.
So I can better understand that and integrate.
And I can relate to what you wrote in the longer response. (And have an inner correction or better adjustment).
Madhu