Osho arrived on the Ranch in Oregon sometime in the early fall of 1981. He used to drive regularly every day which he seemed to enjoy. However when winter came there were floods, and part of the only road which crossed the river from his house was washed away. He, and one assumes Vivek, looked for something that would mean he could keep up daily activity, without interfering with the building of the Ranch, given he could no longer drive.
This according to Devageet turned into the daily dental sessions in which he introduced him to nitrous oxide, and where he spoke daily until one suspects the road bridge was fixed!
An elaborate Gurdjieffian work with four close disciples panned out during this interregnum. Devageet, according to his own admission was “caught” by Vivek clandestinely making a note of something Osho had said during a session. Vivek was not at all sure that this was good practice. However after Vivek shared this with Osho he turned the whole thing on it’s head - by giving Devageet the major work of “noting” whatever he said from the chair, and it seems completing them immediately he got home.
Osho himself showed no interest in the “final” text, though he was interested in the titles of the three resulting “books”. The final text involved some three years work as far as can be understood by Devageet, and some work from Amrito in editing the assembled notes, and many disagreements between them as to what Osho had actually said! Ashu was meant to be the “referee”, but one wonders how much she actually did that.
As one now knows these three books were eventually called “Notes of a Madman”, “Books I have Loved” and “Glimpses of a Golden Childhood”. In one way we “owe” Devageet a vote of thanks for these books! Had he not been “caught” cribbing, they may not have happened. Also, especially “Glimpses” must have involved him in a lot of hard work, and for which he deserves thanks.
It is interesting to record how the Titles were arrived at. Osho declaimed he was not interested in looking at the text of the books (though he insisted they be published) . However he did ask Devageet and Amrito to provide a list of alternative titles from which to choose. Devageet records being surrounded by the notes he had made during the dental sessions in a chaotic heap in his room and trying to make sense of them, at the time of the title demand at the end of 1984 – when Vivek entered the unordered scene. She had according to Devageet not approved of the whole enterprise around the Dental Chair notes (and eventual books) from the beginning. She turned on her heel bluritng out, “Nobody’s going to read this book. It’s just the bloody notes of a madman”.
“Notes of a Madman” was one of the proffered Titles to Osho, and the one he preferred to the other titles offered!
It is also interesting to note that “Glimpses of a Golden Childhood”, whatever its claim or otherwise to authenticity, became one of the most popular books that Osho ever “wrote”!
Parmartha
The three books mentioned read as if they were spoken by Osho.
Yes, I agree. It is a tribute to Devageet that he managed to get that right from his “Notes”. There has always been a mystery about Session 29 of the original edition of “Glimpses”. Why? Cos it does not appear in the second edition.
Devageet does not choose to address this in his book, ‘The First Buddha in the Dental Chair’. As I remember, other commentators think the chapter was actually inserted by Sheela and her ghost writer before publication. That Session, of which I have a copy, also reads like it is Osho speaking.
It is important for anyone interested in these “books” to understand that they were edited “down” quite a lot from the original material by Devageet and Amrito. According to Devageet, the real editing only happened in 1984, after Osho had asked what was happening to them, and after a three year interlude, and I think after Osho himself had started talking again. Until then, no urgency had been seen around publishing them, and this was because, oddly enough, both Vivek and Sheela (in only perhaps the one thing on which they agreed!) hated the idea of them being published at all!
It sounds like the editing was quite substantial in some places. Devageet says, “the raw material (all the Notes) included pages of comments about the Ranch, about America, and some highly personal asides.” The deletion of these latter took “many weeks of editing” (p140 of Devageet’s book).
Always interested me that in Poona 1 he dressed in simple white robes and looked the personification of the ‘holy man’; and then at the Ranch he began to dress like an eastern potentate, or a Pope; and drive and do nitrous oxide apparently, and then back in Poona he kept the eastern potentate/ pope look going, but gave up the nitrous.
Also interesting to me that despite the fiasco of the Ranch (not my view) he kept talking, giving discourses, continued to paint the picture he was painting for us. Was actively involved in the setting up of an organisation for after he was gone. Actively took part in the preparation of the books, the discourses in book form, discourses which one might argue are his successor.
That is kind of interesting, that his books were successors. Jesus or Buddha did not have a successor. If we are all individuals, who has, actually? Was there ever anyone needed for that?
Most of the times when I wonder about Osho, it seems that he is such an Existential Initiator, he knew exactly what / whom to name what!
I just came across this while reading ‘Books I Have Loved ‘ & thought I could share this here in ref. to ‘Osho and his pursuit of the book Tertium Organon’.
Books I Have Loved 12, CHAPTER 3
‘TERTIUM ORGANUM’ was a costly book. In India, in those days, I was getting a salary of only seventy rupees each month, and by coincidence the book cost exactly seventy rupees – but I purchased it. The bookseller was amazed. He said, ”Even the richest man in our community cannot afford it. For five years I have been keeping it to sell, and nobody has purchased it. People come and look at it, then drop the idea of buying. How can you, a poor student, working the whole day and studying at night, working almost twenty-four hours each day, how can you afford it?” I said, ”This book I can purchase even if I have to pay for it with my life. Just reading the first line is enough. I have to have it whatsoever the cost.”
That first sentence I had read in the introduction was, ”This is the third canon of thought, and there are only three. The first is that of Aristotle; the second of Bacon, and the third, my own.” I was thrilled by Ouspensky’s daring, that he said, ”The third existed even before the first.” That was the sentence that caught fire in my heart.
I gave the bookseller my whole month’s salary. You cannot understand, because for that whole month I had to almost starve. But it was worth it. I can remember that beautiful month: no food, no clothes – not even shelter; because I could not pay the rent I was thrown out of my small room.
But I was happy with TERTIUM ORGANUM under the sky. I read that book under a street lamp – it is a confession – and I have lived that book. That book is so beautiful, and more so now that I know that the man did not know at all. How could he have managed it then? It must have been a conspiracy of the gods, something from the beyond. I cannot resist anymore from using the name the Sufis use; they call it khidr. Khidr is the agency that guides those who need guidance.”
Thanks Kavita.
To be honest, I was a little hurt when that Sikh Swami denigrated me and called my original “story” a sort of cinema imagination.
I look for an apology from him now you have kindly posted this.
Come on Shantam, give me an apology. This was Osho talking here. You mistrusted Swami Bhed and myself, now retract!
Actually, this morning, after I read this post, I felt like reading ‘Books I Have Loved’, so when I came across this I thought I should share it.
Now I would like to thank Swami Chaitanya Kirti & Swami Rajneesh for enabling us to do the needful at the click of a button .
Arpana, so agree with you on this one: “Actively took part in the preparation of the books, the discourses in book form, discourses which one might argue are his successor.”
Interesting post, Kavita.
I apologise to Parmartha, who reads Osho books the way Jehovah the witness read Bible.
Mahachud, that is no apology. It is simply an example of why you are called Mahachud by me…you are full of shit.
Sorry Likes (Lokesh), but you seem not to exist without Shantam. Are you full of Shantam? How about finding your own way? You are not exactly doing better than Shantam with his “sabbatical”. Mirrors?
Fresch, I have been reading your comments for some time now. You have very little to share, except perhaps a housewife’s perspectve while gazing out of a kitchen window. Mahachud is posting very nego comments most of the time. Were it not for Parmartha he would not have a site like SN to post his nonsense.
Perhaps you feel it is okay for Chuddie Brain to post his crap. Maybe you can relate to it. I can’t and I do not wish to. If you can’t see what a nasty bit of work he is perhaps you should make some kitchen renovations, like a bigger window with clear glass instead of opaque.
So, can you write about something else? Try from a householder’s perspective, with cats there is a lot to tell.
Fresch, is that the best you come up with?
You rarely write anything that goes into anything at all. Chucking in your tuppenceworth is about the extent of it. A sentence here and a sentence there is, generally speaking, about as far as it goes.
Of the regulars it is you who reveals least about herself. At least Shantam stands for what he says, even though most of it is meaningless. You stand for zippy.
No, you do not believe that yourself. Another mirror? I like your – any other – but your boring “Shamtam this and that“ writing. So you can relax about that.
And I have had a lot to say. And many things have changed for me. I hope for you too. Even for the “Her” movie.
Lokesh,
You don’t mean it, do you???
Re: your comments…
“Fresch, I have been reading your comments for some time now. You have very little to share, except perhaps a housewife’s perspectve while gazing out of a kitchen window.”
Although not a housewife for many years, I felt like sharing this with you…
Some of my first experiences of Oneneness took place out of a Kitchen Window…
“It is exceedingly hard for us to realise, in the climate of Western society, that the woman who quietly responds with intense interest and love to people, to ideas, and to things, is as deeply and truly creative as one who always seeks to lead, to act, to achieve. The feminine qualities of receptivity, of nurturing in silence and secrecy are (whether in man or woman) as essential to creation as their masculine opposites and in no way inferior.”
-Helen Luke
Photo: Anna Yeshe Dorje
“You don’t mean it, do you???”
Of course not, Upnita.
The housewife thing was just my way of saying that Fresch’s comments are pretty stale and show little sign of a desire on her part to convey anything much of interest. I just find her perspective to be stilted. Nothing more, nothing less.
She declares that she has a lot to say, but doesn’t say about what and says very little.
What is wrong being a housewife? Making your home beautiful, cooking food for you and your children. Waiting for you to come home. Building the net of stimmung, cosiness, taking care of children, planting flowers in the garden.
By all means just continue to copy/paste your 2 ‘posts of Shantam’ here for the last 5 years…how many of exactly the same content, ie ‘Shantam copy/paste’, have you done – 2 million?
It might help Fresch to think of Lokesh’s relationship with Shantam as being similar to that enjoyed by most archetypal, co-dependent married couples. Or, as Engelbert Humperdinck put it in the song he made famous, ‘The Last Waltz’…which goes…”2 lonely people together…the last waltz will last forever.” It seems to me that they both feed from each other and that this particular waltz has been going on for a long time, as you have indicated already.
I know Lokesh has said some spiteful things about your contributions here, but I would not take them to heart. Please understand that he is reacting from the position of a lover, whose deep relationship with his significant other has been called into question by an independent observer. I feel sure he does not mean those horrible things he said and p’haps he will retract at some point once he has cooled down. In the meantime, if it is any consolation, Fresch, please note that I for one am very grateful and appreciative of your voice here.
I often think that the regular bites they take out of each other (which I personally enjoy), serve as a kind of substitute meditative practice, given the almost daily frequency of the experience. So having mentioned meditation, at this point I would just like to recall some of Osho’s words, which went, I think…”Meditation is the flower and compassion is the fragrance.”
P’haps both Lokesh and Shantam deserve our compassion and understanding, and we should not be too hard on them?
Do you not agree then, Ashok, with either of the protagonists? Please tell us where you personally stand in this ongoing debate. Although I suspect the Flames of Hell are tending to seriously impair your judgment….
Ashok (24 April, 2014 at 4:59 am), I could not put “reply” on your post, so it’s here.
I always try to take feedback, if relevant. It’s one thing to pour your shit on the other person, another to have a good discussion about the issue. It definitely shows (Lokesh’s) level of maturity, not to talk about the awareness.
We do not have to agree on everything. But I do agree with you on this one that they seem to have a long-term co-dependent relationship, sure. I am just a bit bored with reading about it. So, pls do not go for SD’s hook about taking sides. Why would anybody really? Compassion does not help addicts, I am afraid. I am glad you have thrown yourself into SN.
I hope, Ashok, you remain here at SN, it can be interesting too.
It seems, Fresch, that you don’t quite see the central issue of this ‘Shantam debate, which is that it’s irresponsible not to respond to someone who’s using an open forum to propagate what one regards as untruth, coming from an inadequate sense of what he’s talking about.
This may or may not be because you yourself don’t perceive what I’m afraid I have to describe as the inherently immature bias of the content of many of his comments here. My guess would be the former is the case.
Whether you are fed up with the ongoing ‘debate’ is neither here nor there, it’s irrelevant, Fresch. And calling upon Ashok to remain silent compounds your error.
Was standing in a supermarket check-out line one morning a couple of years ago, and overheard a fragment of a conversation, which led to an insight, which left me shaken, so shaken the inner monologue ceased, left me so shaken I felt physically unsteady.
Cool, Arps, just as long as you haven’t turned into a supermarket basket case. Heavens forbid.
My nearest supermarket is huge, and I enjoy the anonymity of the place.
SD (24 April, 2014 at 4:55 pm), you people managed to drag even (before that, sweet) Arpana into your negativity campaign, also Vartan is missing and many others. So I am just warning Ashok about an exhausted, futile ditch. You can very well feel the humour and sincerity with Ashok, still for a short while until the shit starts to hit the fan.
Write something positive, SD, see the spring flowers your wife planted outside of your house. Or perhaps she is happy that instead of walking behind her, you are nagging at people here?
You cannot spoil my happiness today, lallallallahey, serves you right.
“You people managed to drag even (before that, sweet) Arpana into your negativity campaign”?!
‘We people’ did nothing of the sort, Fresch. As no doubt Arpana will confirm. For God’s sake, woman, wake up, you’re talking like an ignorant, sentimental fool.
No one’s ‘dragging’ anyone into anything here. And no one is running a “negativity campaign”. Did you understand what I said to you earlier, in my last post (4.55pm)? And in my earlier response to Shantam (2.20pm)? It would appear not. Which is why you’re barely worth responding to at present, although I will carry on doing so since on current evidence you’re on a par with Shantam himself (both of you, as previously highlighted, tending to avoid ‘difficult’ questions and both of you tending towards a certain syrupy sentimentality) and fully deserve contradicting.
PS: I’m already appreciating the flowers and blossoms perfectly freely, thanks. IE it’s ‘business as usual’ where I am.
Sorry, Parmartha.
Seems like my above post (loving and bit ironical) has given someone bleeding piles.
So to set the record state, I apologise in a serious way. I hope this apology reaches you before the Taliban comments.
Few people are so full with their own shit that they forget the etiquette not to open the post addressed to other people.
Well, Chuddie Pants, that is about as near as you come to making an apology. So good on you. There was nothing ironic about your comment. It was pure bullshit. So why not go the whole hog and admit it? Really, man, a lot of your comments are negative in essence. Perhaps you should check out where the massive chip on your shoulder came from.
It is not a case of opening posts addressed to other people. If you wish to send a private message, use the facility provided. This is a public platform and therefore anyone can comment on another’s comment.
I found this, Shantam, difficult to take:
Parmartha “who reads Osho books the way Jehovah the witness read Bible.”
After the years posting on this board you know this is just not true of me.
There are a few lessons here I think for you.
1) Don’t rush to judgement. For some reason you immediately found this story about Osho and Ouspensky’s book not to your liking – you even implied it might be fabricated by Swami Bhed or myself. You could ask YOURSELF why this story was somehow unacceptable to you? Maybe because you did not know it? Or that it didn’t fit the picture of Osho you have? Cough up, do a little self-examination and give us a view of what was going on for you – yourself – when you first read this story.
Secondly, if you ask the people at Osho News and others, it is precisely because I don’t treat Osho’s words as the “gospel truth” that they get fed up with me…At some point I will start a string with some examples of this. Basically, I recommend common sense and being a little streetwise. You then can “sense” what the truth is in what anyone says, including Osho, and what might be a whopper.
Why both Gurdjieff and Osho were fond of exaggerations etc. is a mystery and also another string at some time. If you read Ouspensky’s book about his relationship with Gurdjieff he has quite a few doubts about believing “everything” that Gurdjieff told him and voices them.
He projects himself on to everybody.
He was telling you something about himself,
even if he isn’t aware of that.
The sentence should read
“Shantam, who reads Osho books the way Jehovah the witness read Bible.”
Beauty of this forum is, many times we write from our first impressions and quite often it takes the form of tit for tat or proves Newton´s third law of motion, “Action and reaction are equal and opposite.”
(In this age, one can simply write, “Actions and reactions are equal and opposite”. Mentioning Newton is a Pre- Independence India estyle, gives the impression one has studied physics too)
You wrote “when that Sikh Swami”…and I gave the answer in the similar estyle of “Jehovah the witness”.
Rest of this post I wish to answer too during the course of the day and as honestly as I can. It was working in me the whole night. And you can say the effect, Osho´s Samadhi photo on my shelf, I have taken it away. I am departing with the imaginary of last 20 years or so.
Shantam,
Your approval is as worthless as your disapproval.
Parmartha says:
“Why both Gurdjieff and Osho were fond of exaggerations etc. is a mystery and also another string at some time.”
Crowley was the same. I can see a pattern there…if you think you are a master…then you better start exaggerating. It’s just a personality trait. Some ppl like to test you… to see how much you can take. As I said, it’s just a personality thingy. Try it.
Parmartha, I am in many ways a person who has taken Osho’s words literally, like a Jehovah’s Witness, someone could say. For example, exploring intensively with his meditations. I do see danger there.
Also, I take into account that many people near Osho did not meditate or do groups (however, there I feel living in the commune is itself the most intense group ever).
And I would not recommend my experience to someone else; I do not even share about it much, because we all have our own paths. I like it that Osho included everything. If I look at my meditating friends, they all become more and more peculiar as if cartoon characters; everybody becoming more and more unique.
Fresch , I think & feel that “successor” is used more as a figure of speech in this context.
Kavita, it’s very good you point that out, because my notion in this is that (my) context was somewhat misleading.
From my own experience I happen to know that in any media headlines or titles as well, pictures with them are more important than content. I am not sure if you, Parmatha, were thinking about that too, if that was Osho’s intention there.
The content then can be fairytales, stories or whatever and it does not even matter if under drugs – natural or synthetic. Well, Osho would have claimed he had consciousness there any way. And with that he would be taking the carpet under many, wouldn’t he? And that he really liked.
Fresch, probably you mean Arpana & not Parmartha?
I don’t think two people can think the same thoughts at a given time, of course there can be exceptions .
Yes, regarding Osho’s books & discourses, I think these are mobile mediums of this age, which are / shall be, made available to anyone & anywhere who is interested.
About Osho’s intentions, since you are asking me, I don’t think he really had any!
Anyway dear, good night.
I contradict, Arpana.
Never, ever “books” have been “sucessings” or “successors” ; it’s always the human lovers and friends by whose heartbeats and expressions wisdom treasures like THIS keep alive.
Or n o t -
I have been deeply impressed by your digital compilation and piece of art
saying more than words.
And so I have been quite irritated by your wordy conclusions in the end.
Maybe I saw something else in it as you felt it by having the graphic done.
Thank you for your graphic parable.
To honour books is more than to dust them
and if one has had the chance to sit in the presence and in a way be mysteriously part of some of the books (I see it like that, Arpana), even more so.
I agree with you about the lines you made concerning the “Ranch period”.
Still, much sharing is missing, at least in my life it couldn’t happen.
Sorry for that – as the virtual realms seem to be not appropriate for me.
Sitting in midst of a beautiful spring evening
I say hello from here.
Madhu
”Never, ever “books” have been “sucessings” or “successors” ; it’s always the human lovers and friends by whose heartbeats and expressions wisdom treasures like THIS keep alive.”
That is such romantic schlep, Madhu.
If it wasn’t for the words, the discourses, no one would be interested in him.
I have, fortunately, never been too caught up with him as a physical presence. (Probably because spending a year and a half round him in the seventies at the ashram fulfilled something in me).
YOU are on very sticky ground when YOU start spouting off about the quality of my words, or anyone else’s words for that matter.
Shantam Prem,
if you want a one-to-one post you shouldn’t post that then here at this SN-place.
The chat is an open source and an open mind – so to say -
visible simply for everybody
and that is the way it is.
Experiencing most of your contributions as utterly destructive for an interactive flow is neither funny like you are claiming and also never loving (as you pretend to mean it – sometimes).
I don’t know what you want and what you are up to.
If you want contact the limited way that is possible here in the chat or if your are just enjoying catharting your aggression without giving the slightest hint for readers what is the hurt underneath of your rage and contempt.
Madhu
Madhu, I enjoy when you speak plainly.
Okay, Arpana,
read your response -
May I ask why you put the “YOU” (meaning me) twice in big letters?
Is there something else you want to say to me with that?
Madhu
And another PS: Arpana,
A contradiction again -
you wrote:
“If it wasn’t for the words, the discourses, no one would be interested in him.”
I like to share with you that so many people I met on the sannyas path I did know from before and that is no esoteric mango jumbo.
We didn’t have smartphones or internet flashmob datings and yet we met
being utterly surprised and in joy.
What I would like to say with that is
that there are such things like magnetic pulls
even nowadays
call it “sticky” – to speak of such realities – or speaking of a love pull
but that has been my experience for quite a long time.
And I know it also the other way round
when I am miserable…and in resentment or being stuck, seemingly lost
yet both the ways I wouldn’t call that “sticky”.
(MOD: COULD YOU POSSIBLY EXPLAIN THIS LAST PARAGRAPH MORE, PLEASE, MADHU?)
But yes, you are free to name it like ever you want.
Madhu
Well, I would put it like this – now
sometimes I ask myself why I am writing here at this place
quite often being confronted with comments or what are called comments
which are even hard to read and paining – confronting me with the fact
that in everyday life – missing quite often a heart-to-heart talk with friends.
Stepping into sannyas has been a happening since and seemingly irreversible
and by that I mean that issues moving me
might be different from a person who is dedicated to a professional career
(that’s at least my experience)
so I like to look out for fellow travellers
sharing
and this is one way of many to do it.
I am grateful that the threads here raise questions and have topics so to say.
The present topic, for example, is a difficult one for me:
“Osho: An alternative to the Daily Drive”,
touching the ‘drive-by’ memories in me as well as continuing with book-threads like “empty book”, other books like ‘Tertium Organon’, Gurdijeff etc.
Up to the books which happened when – for most of us quite unknowable – in a very intimate situation with just very few disciples
and loaded like so much else with the flavour of rumours and speculation.
I sometimes see it as a kind of symptom when contributors start a verbal fight
or verbal abuse
and I sometimes then see it as my symptom when I read or write instead of going outdoors or just sit still and alone and shut off the computer
and shut off the illusion to reach somewhere some-body whose eyes I cannot see and whose energy I am not able to feel while he or she is expressing.
There is this promise on the new technological refined “communication-line”
like an invitation
to meet and to share,
there is the possibility by the tool we are using to become aware that we rarely communicate with the “other” – so – the challenge for my understanding is to stay human – and neither superhuman nor below humanness
so to behave verbally in the chat
like we would like to meet each other in a real situation.
If I want to talk to myself I write into my diary
and that I am doing daily and a lot
and that is intimate.
I don’t know if you have got by now what you have requested, moderator(s)
But that’s what did happen as a response.
Madhu
And…another one – Arpana,
We sometimes have the illusion to use a tool art-i-ficial so powerful
connecting us in nano time with seemingly every nook and corner – people (?) -
a tool to connect anything with anything – playing – and getting drunk in playing the bits and the bytes and colours and the 3-D s and whatsoever.
And yet – if we sometimes are woken up seeing a flatliner taken off in horizontal speed and spread and sometimes
SEE – THAT WE ARE USED, INSTEAD OF USING (POWER – we sometimes even label that as the power of “now”)
THE MASTER AIN’T STAYING IN OUR OWN HOUSE.
To become aware of is (can be) very humiliating and very SANE also.
The little figure in white robe you compiled with walking feet
OUT of the magic-looking curved bookshelves symbol and an endless dark-violet, blue sky and a red accurate curving symbolising (?) the books.
A painter of ZEN calligraphy woudn’t have managed so accurately as the computer…the living hand and brush in the hand when that happened —
always a little “imperfect” – that’s LIFE
touching us – sometimes touching us spot on in a place inside we give many names of sweetness – and yet has no names – no bits – no bytes – so precious
This little figure has indeed an essence who knew to dance in awareness
being moved and moving as well
as being lost in the dance AND being present in this
and as far as my limited understanding is concerned
lived what he talked und talked what he lived
if we did like it or not.
If you have had really the impression that nothing counts like the books to remain
then why put that graphic figure at all
we here know as Osho
or we have been singing “the blessed one” or “in wonder” and feeling blessed also while singing – having a voice and not a ‘joy stick’?
- Being part of it when…(“Eternity Penetrated Time”, a songtitle of
Bobby Mcferrin…a very beautiful one — LISTEN… -
and don t misunderstand me now – please.
I am very grateful for what reminded me when my eyes saw the graphic you composed.
“sticky”- night – moment – Madhu
And I really decided to take your labelling as a garment… for the time being….
Parmartha, Sorry to say, you guys are stretching this episode like chewing gum (:
I would like to comment, but I’m currently under arrested development within the confines of my own thoughts, following PC Pamela Arthurson’s handy tip not to write them down.
For further PC tips, visit your local supermarket’s tea section for a nice warm, reassuring storm in a tea-cup.
Disciple´s thought of the day-
If someone asks me which master/Religion to follow, my answer will be, “Where you can interact with fellow travellers. Don´t look at the titles of the books, but facial expressions of the people.”
A possible, but ultimately an inadequate criterion, Shantam.
For a start, what’s apparently good for some (or even many) might not necessarily be good for you, me or others.
Then, of course, appearances can be deceptive. Have you seen a bunch of ‘born-again’ Christians, for example? They look as if they haven’t a care in the world, especially when in the throes of emotionalised ‘ecstasy’, singing away that they’ve been “saved”!
Third (and possibly most important of all), if you’re truly serious about ‘joining up’ with some religious outfit then you need to examine the teachings and see whether they somehow have the ring of truth in your own experience.
And also try out one or two recommended practices, to see whether they’re a good ‘fit’ for you. Including, if possible, being with the living teacher to see how you are in his/her presence.
You always emphasise the ‘communal’ aspect of it all, including its outer forms (ashram power struggles and the like), appearing to place little or no emphasis on the nitty-gritty of the ‘inner journey’, often in fact tending to downgrade inner enquiry as mere ‘mind games’.
That’s why I’m afraid you invariably tend to come across here as rather shallow, somehow out of your depth, and why you face such opposition.
Maybe it’s an ‘East-West’ thing, an ultimately unbridgeable ‘psycho-cultural’ chasm between you and westerners, despite ostensibly being from the same movement, and despite being married to a westerner?
Good, concise comment, SD.
I’m genuinely interested, Shantam, to know what conclusions you’ve come to re Parmartha’s questions a couple of days ago.
Have you looked into the nature of your first negative responses to the quotes concerning Osho’s ‘obsession’ with Ouspensky’s book, ie what was going on in you to produce such a dismissive reaction? If not, I suggest you’d do well to investigate that reaction as well.
Might your initial response have something to do with wanting to keep ‘your Osho as Indian as possible’ (as it were), ‘uncontaminated’ by outside influences, especially from an ‘unenlightened’ one like Ouspensky, whom you might not want to even consider rating as someone worthwhile in the context of spiritual influences on your master?
Did you feel, instinctively, that this now confirmed as true story somehow threatened the image of Osho you retain inside, thus making you uncomfortable?
And how about your resentment at the criticism that came your way as a result of your less-than-gracious concession of having been wrong about the issue? Where did that come from? A sense of feeling humiliated and consequently wanting to hit out at your perceived ‘enemies’? A feeling of inferiority perhaps, hurt pride coming right up against the self-image of a would-be Sikh (‘spiritual’) warrior?
And right now, a ‘knee-jerk’ reaction to not bother to respond to these enquiries, coming from further such fears, masked perhaps by self-defensive anger and contempt for the questioner, and/or relegating the whole issue to the status of ‘not important’?
By the way, there’s no ‘shame’ involved in facing up to such internal matters (and if there is, then that’s another thing to look into), it’s just common-or-garden stuff (or should be) for all ‘seekers’, we’re pretty well all subject to such mental structures, having constructed them since we were very young, making sure they’re as watertight as possible as the years roll on…IE be sure you’re in good company here!
Except when life somehow almost ‘forces’ us to wake up and look at our self-constructed psychic prisons…
Take it as an opportunity, Shantam, it’s very much part of ‘what it’s all about’. After all, what do you think being ‘spiritual’ is actually about, if not being aware of ‘biggies’ like jealousy, anger, resentment, shame – and taking steps to ‘dissolve’ them? (One might add ‘hoping’ and wanting or wishing things to be different, but let’s not go into that now).
I love born again Christians, I love Jehovah the witness, I am at home in Catholic churches, and If Mormons give me many wives I can even convert!
Don´t be so serious, SD, and look for the opportunities to “discuss” as if we are in the courts.
“Don’t be so serious, man” – a typical sannyasin ploy to avoid dealing with significant issues.
Tell me, Shantam, is your version of Sannyas – not in your mind’s imagination, but in your actual living life – really so different from the ways of the so-called ‘religious’ people you enjoy observing so much?
Editors, please take notice. Middle of yesterday, fonts have become smaller on this thread.
MOD: WE’RE LOOKING INTO THIS, SHANTAM, THANKS.
While scanning the elections news, as India is passing through its biggest churning process in the history, one expression got my attention. Worth taking notice, at least by those including me who claim to be seekers of truth and sit on the ass with the idea to have their third eye to get open too .
“Case of wilful blindness to reality” is a common syndrome, we all want to avoid, thinking it is just a cough, how it can be tuberculosis!
MOD: NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN HERE. COULD YOU POSSIBLY TELL US MORE, PLEASE, SHANTAM?
(In Response to Satyadeva 24-04-14)
In the above post to Ashok, you request that he declares himself for one of the protagonists involved. For the rest of us here, would you be so kind as to clarify whether you mean Lokesh and Shantam, or Fresch and Lokesh?
From A Little Red Hiding Hood (Aka the Right Hon. Rev. Deacon Jones, renowned personage from the song, “Burning Hell” – Tom Jones).
(Replying to Fresch’s post of 24-04-14, 2.24pm)
Many thanks for your kind response. In addition, please accept my undying gratitude for the warning re Satyadeva, or p’haps we should call him Satyrdeva, given the bleak picture you have painted of him. It would seem from what you have said that he is a big bad wolf masquerading in sheep’s clothing (cross-dresser extraordinaire), preying on the innocent and gullible like me, in Sannyas News!
Have no fear, Fresch, I shall not take the bait, and therefore deliver him a fatal blow with ‘Golden Silence’!
Meanwhile, in a parallel universe…
from the `Daily Male` , stardate 25.4.014
Vicious thugs carried out a sickening racially and religiously motivated attack on an unemployed Punjabi man with severe learning difficulties and left him for dead in a pool of mango juice on an obscure internet site over the course of the last 6 or 7 years.
The attack was carried out by two notorious thugs, masquerading as religious experts and masters of the eastern art of meditation,
“Swami” Slasher Dave, a self-confessed member of the Gooner Herd Arsenal football hooligans slashed the victim mercilessly with his logic and western rationality for failing to answer his perfectly straightforward questions, as infamous Scottish skinhead Loko Joe Mcbananas repeatedly headbutted the unemployed Asian man, who is already on disability benefit, in the third eye and berated and mocked him for his lack of consciousness as he passed out on the floor.
“These are the lowest of the low”, said Inspector Knacker of the Yard, “they are well known to the police following a vicious spate of recent attacks on members of the public, including an appaling beating administerd by Mcbananas on an innocent foreign housewife who had the temerity to call his religious ramblings into question. He savagely hammered her with a large hardback copy of ‘Psychological Commentaries’, an alarmingly heavy tome penned by fellow ‘Inter-City Firm’ member Mo “The Work”, as he screamed at her that what she took to be her self did not, in fact, exist at all and was nothing more than an identification with a succession of a multitude of unconnected “I”s issuing from the fact that she was simply a machine….”
“Also, only yesterday Slasher Dave unprovokedly and nastily set upon a certain Father Ted Crilley who happened to be passing and attempted to intervene in the carnage.”
“it seems that these two men fell under nefarious influences at a young age”, claimed Pam Arthur, the owner of the squalid internet site where the attacks took place.
“Mcbananas had a suceession of skinhead mentors, whom he idolised: George the Greek, ‘Bad-One’ Bhagdaddy and ‘Dirty Hari’ Papaji ,and they were all firm believers in administering “hits” to anyone whom they decided needed them.
Slasher Dave fell under the spell of the infamous romper-stomper tantrer racist guru Larry Bong, whose racist philosophy underpinned his attacks on “brown-skinned gurus” who were coming over here and using their “glamour” to take the jobs away from perfectly decent, salt-of-the-earth, down-to-earth, hard-working, common-sense, white working-class teachers like himself. Dave seems to have inherited the racist tendencies of his mentor, although rumour has it he still likes to sneak off for a bit of darkie-fun down at Meera’s and Paedo Baba’s when he gets the time.
“It’s sad, really, as the streets of Sannyas News used to be safe, but now people just don’t come here any more for fear of being savagely mauled by these ageing bully-boys….”
Praise the lord.
The horse Lasagna King has returned.
Great post, Frank. Extremely witty. Love it. XXX Glasgow ones, of course.
The reviews are coming in thick and fast for this one all right. Here’s just a few…
Most amusing, sometimes violent – yet deeply restful as well. An excellent choice for Radio 4′s ‘Woman’s Hour’ daily short story. (‘The Listener’ magazine)
A rattling good read. I felt my eyebrows rise several centimetres above their normal position – on several occasions. (Swami Shantam Prem)
Interesting, yet disturbing at the same time. One I’m not so sure I’ll come back to, again and again. (Christianity Today)
If you’re looking for a good holiday read – this isn’t it. (Saga magazine for the over-60′s)
Allah needs more of the McBananas and Dave brand of warrior follower. God is Great! (Muslim Times)
A little Irish leprechaun like me, lost for words! Would you believe it? I don’t! (Swami Ashok)
Goes far too far beyond the boundaries of good sense. (Humanist Weekly)
Doesn’t hold out much hope for the future of race relations, I’m afraid. (Race Relations Board)
Really nice. Heartwarming. Reading this my deep loneliness simply evaporated. I feel profoundly fortunate. (Ma Fresch)
What’s this bloke on about then? Does he hate Arsenal, or something? (Review, ‘Gooner’ magazine)
Dear oh dear. (Osho News)
I laughed like a drain. Who IS this frank – more to the point: does HE know who he is? (Swami Satyadeva).
Disgraceful punditry! (The Rev.Dhyan Rage)
Yeah, frank! I will send you my mobile phone film footage about the violence and riots in the neighbourhood (after making dinner for children). You can very clearly see the bandits in it. Who can protect us? Not Putin, not CIA.
But I see new daring human beings are entering the planet SN, still with the shining eyes. Let’s not allow any shadow go over that shining clarity.
MOD: FRESCH, DUE TO STILL UNRESOLVED TECHNICAL ISSUES YOUR POST OF 5.12pm YESTERDAY (FAO SD) HAS NOT BEEN PUT UP.
FOR THE SAME REASON, SATYADEVA’S POSTS OF 4.55pm AND 7.01pm YESTERDAY (FAO FRESCH) REMAIN UNPUBLISHED..
Okay, some personal responses (*while planting red poppies*)…
SD, you know I wrote before, you are a sweet man (when not endlessly nagging), read that post again.
So Ashok, in other discussions SD can be very insightful. Ashok, I have not seen yet more how “innocent and gullible” you are. But I would like to get to know you better. I am happy finally somebody new jumps in.
Yes, Arps, “boys are boys” has gone too far and is not that any more.
Shantam, get yourself together.
Fresch, stop picking on poor Shantam, try picking on someone your own size…like…erm…Madhu.
To Fresch:
When you write of SD as sometimes “insightful”, would I be right in thinking that what you really intended to say was ‘inciteful’?
On a more serious note, however, I would agree with you that the lad has some redeeming qualities…he’s not all bad, is he? You have on occasion described him as “sweet”, I however would say that that his major strength is ‘incisiveness’, which he is only too willing to demonstrate given a sniff of a chance (ie if the dog is given a bone to gnaw on).
Unfortunately, this strength can also become his downfall, particularly when he, along with other members of the pack, viciously attack some poor unsuspecting victim and refuse to let go, engaging in negative behaviour which you yourself have described as a “futile exhausted ditch”. Let us pray together compassionately for their redemption, even though “they know precisely what they do!” (Lukesh 23:24)
MOD: WE EDITED OUT THE REST OF THIS POST AS IT WAS SPECULATIVE GOSSIP!
One of the posts that got lost two days ago…
It seems, Fresch, that you don’t quite see the central issue of this ‘Shantam debate, which is that it’s irresponsible not to respond to someone who’s using an open forum to propagate what one regards as untruth, coming from an inadequate sense of what he’s talking about.
This may or may not be because you yourself don’t perceive what I’m afraid I have to describe as the inherently immature bias of the content of many of his comments here. My guess would be the former is the case.
Whether you are fed up with the ongoing ‘debate’ is neither here nor there, it’s irrelevant, Fresch. And calling upon Ashok to remain silent compounds your error.
Fresch, have you a copy of the post of yours that got lost the other day? I have my reply so if you put up yours I’ll put up mine (as the saying goes).
Enemy like Lokesh by the side, Shantam does not need friends!
Every post of his provokes and inspires me to write.
Thanks , Shantypanty, I love you too.
Lokesh,
Do you sometimes read through the history of your own postings like you recommended to me in a private e-mail, while recommending I should retract from posting at all here?
Inconceivable with what character you here show up (25.4.2014 at 11.40 pm).
And more inconceivable that you managed so far to get some followers in SN at any time to go for a slum-fight.
Madhoo enquires, “Do you sometimes read through the history of your own postings?”
Never. I have better things to do with my time.
Why do you ask? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time than to read your own posts from the past?
Praying the ‘Daily Male’ keeps its holy grace in its parallel universe. Amen!
Madhoo refers to…a private e-mail, somehing which she cannot get over, poor over-sensitive lass. Now Madhoo, if you want to see your ego at work all you have to do is observe that which is upset here…your over-sensitive ego. Boo hoo…’tis a sad story…sniff sniff….get well soon. XXX
SD, I cannot remember, I do not save my posts. Perhaps it was ok to be deleted (Mod, it’s ok if not found). Even, of course every word of mine is pure gold, isn’t it?
About this, how should I call it – addictive? – talk about Shantam’s writings? I would sometimes like to take part in it, also in a critical view, but it does not seem to be possible, because the whole thing is out of proportion. And frankly has racist shadow in it. So, that needs to be balanced at first, then people discuss, or argue, and it’s not horrible.
PS: I am not going to give in to the retired Ibiza cat farmer, a pleasure to overwhelm a housewife. In your dreams, mouse.
Gee Whizz! Fresch is strutting her tuff stuff.
Retired? Retired from what?
Cat farmer? Ehm…you’ve lost me there, Fresch. Are you taking writing lessons from Shantypants? Sorry to be the one to tell you, but that might not be such a good idea.