Gurdjieff said, “You are nothing but the body, and when the body dies you will die. Only once in a while does a person survive – one who has created a soul in his life survives death – not all. A Buddha survives; a Jesus survives, but not you! You will simply die, not even a trace will be left.”
Osho said, “What was Gurdjieff trying to do? He was shocking you to the very roots; he was trying to take away all your consolations and foolish theories which go on helping you to postpone work upon yourself. Now, to tell people, “You don’t have any souls, you are just vegetables, just a cabbage or maybe a cauliflower” – a cauliflower is a cabbage with a college education – “but nothing more than that.” He was really a master par excellence. He was taking the very earth away from underneath your feet. He was giving you such a shock that you had to think over the whole situation: are you going to remain a cabbage? He was creating a situation around you in which you would have to seek and search for the soul, because who wants to die?”
“Awakening is possible only for those who seek it and want it, for those who are ready to struggle with themselves and work on themselves for a very long time and very persistently in order to attain it.” ― G.I. Gurdjieff
Get Out of Your Own Way
I always credited Osho with coining that saying. That is, until I came across it in Maurice Nicholl’s ‘Psychological Commentaries On The Teachings Of Gurdjieff And Ouspensky’. Published in 1955 the five volumes that comprise The Commentaries are for me five of the greatest spiritual books ever written.(30 Euros each on Amazon). I am sure that Osho read those books, perhaps more than once, because there is much evidence of it in his discourses and in how he chose to organize his commune. Please take note that I can only speak about Poona One in this respect as I never went to the ranch or Poona Two, but I did live in Poona One from 74 until 81.
Osho was greatly inspired by Gurdjieff and many times he spoke highly of him. Osho was not the kind of speaker who often revealed the sources of the material he used to help compose his discourses or add to his often radical ideas. Had he done so he would certainly have mentioned The Chronicles.
Gurdjieff’s doctrine known as the Work, as I interpret it, has two fundamental principles, namely non-identification and self-remembrance. Osho was big on both. Another linchpin is that our being is characterized by multiplicity composed of numerous ‘I’s, as opposed to one centralized ‘I’. As far as I know Osho did on occasion speak about this but did not push this doctrine very much. This brings me to my first question. Why did the teaching that we are a crowd inside not enter more into Osho’s work? I think it is a very important point because it is true, and Osho, of course, understood this.
In Poona One ashram life, Gurdjieffian ego-busting techniques were often strong medicine that was administered daily. I can remember cleaning staircases that were spotless with a tooth brush for days and then being ordered to do them again because I had not done a good enough job. Absurdities were the order of the day, with so-called Zen Mistresses bossing one around like irate sergeant majors, berating you constantly that that you were unsurrendered, while all they seemed surrendered to was eating too much and growing fatter by the minute. In retrospect, it sounds like a laugh, but back in the day it was no joke, even taking into account the sannyas credo of non-seriousness.
During the mid-seventies, when groups entered commune life, it was sometimes obvious where Osho’s inspiration came from. For example, Enlightenment Intensive was loosely based on Advaita Vedanta’s self enquiry. There was nothing that linked directly to Gurdjieff’s ‘Work’, except perhaps some sacred dance movements, once again as far as I know.. Yet no other teacher influenced Osho more than Gurdjieff. Why was it that Osho did not focus more on Gurjieff’s work in relation to group work and integrate more of his teaching into morning discourses? After all, the back bone of commune life was structured on this remarkable man’s ideas?
What Gurdjieff based his work on was esoteric interpretations of The Gospels. Osho was never too hot on Biblical texts, or Christ for that matter. The Mustard Seed discourses being a rare exception, say in comparison to Buddha’s sutras. This is a little strange because Christ’s teachings and for that matter the Old and New Testaments are a veritable gold mine for the spiritual aspirant. Perhaps Osho simply was not attracted to such teachings, or maybe his Eastern background found it difficult to integrate them, even though Osho indicated he was on par with Christ.
Then there were his sannyasins. My contention is that the sannyas community was not ready for Gurdjieff’s Work and to a large extent still isn’t. The Indians simply were and are not open to such a teaching, being by nature more receptive to traditional paths like Bhakti etc. As for the Western Sannyasins they were and still are, generally speaking, looking for a quick spiritual fix, not a lifetime of dedicated effort to get to the truth…that looks like too much hard work to a mind programmed a la nouveaux western….we want it all and we want it now! Follow your bliss! The cry goes up. For decades books like ‘The Lazy Man’s Guide To Enlightenment’ have existed in popular culture. The truth is that no such path exists. Spiritual awakening is perhaps the most arduous task a man or woman can embark on and it requires at the very least guts, determination, earnestness and a lot of time. Rare to meet someone who has all of those qualities at their disposal, and that is just for starters.
When I look out of the window I see that 90% of what is being touted as spirituality is pure bullshit, that will ultimately bring abut no change in one’s being. The sannyas world is not immune to it. In fact, sannyasins often embrace spiritual bullshit, mistaking it for the real deal. Plenty of examples of that here on SN, where one often finds comments that indicate that someone is clinging to their consolations and foolish theories, which go on helping them to postpone work upon their self, as Osho so gently puts it.. The reason for this lies in the fact that generally speaking we are spiritually deaf. This is probably the main motive behind Osho talking so much. He often said that he could have sat in silence all day in his air conditioned cave, without uttering a single word. Yet he spoke endlessly. In ancient times so much talk was not needed, the psychic ambience more easy to tune into. Today it is very difficult. Our higher centres are functioning perfectly but we can’t hear what they are transmitting, because of the relentless clamour around us and inside our selves. We need to hear the message from outside and hence Osho spoke more than anyone else I have ever met. Basically he said the same thing day in day out and spiced it up to keep it interesting. What he was transmitting was that the truth lies within and it is entirely up to you to seek it. I can give you directions but it is you alone who must undertake that greatest of journeys.
Unfortunately many worship Osho instead of practising what he preached. The main principle driving this misguided notion having to do with our deep-seated relationship with authoritarian figures. A big daddy or mummy who knows what is best for us and will take care of everything. Alas, it is not going to pan out like that and in the end you will remain fast asleep, dreaming a dream that might appear somehow spiritual but is nonetheless a dream, unreal.
I return to the Gurdjieff quote. Awakening is possible only for those who seek it and want it, for those who are ready to struggle with themselves and work on themselves for a very long time and very persistently in order to attain it.
I find it very important to be absolutely honest with ourself in regards such matters.
Do you really wish to awaken? To die to all that you have taken to be your self?
Are you willing to struggle with yourself and work on yourself for a very long time in order to bring a state of personal awakening about?
The shambles that was the Ranch comes to mind. Could it be that Osho saw that everyone in the sannyas community was becoming too comfortable. That the idea of creating one big happy family was not conductive to awakening. It may well have been the case. Our sleep is so deep we need a great shock to awaken. Osho entered his shocking behaviour period. Many fled the scene. Turns out our cuddly omniscient guru loves material wealth, expensive cars and watches, taking drugs, big breasted women, one minute quickies, watching war moves repeatedly etc. Brilliant! He pulled the magic carpet right out from underneath everyone’s sandled feet. Pure Gurdjieff!
Nowin present time the cat’s away and the mice will play. We have a wee gang running the Resort. Those that oppose them are getting all self-righteous about it. There is talk of preserving Osho’s legacy and heritage, although nobody appears very clear as to what that actually means. We have would-be gurus channeling Osho’s energy. In fact we have just about everything that Osho was dead against being touted in his name. He, of course knew that all this would happen and said as much while alive. He also said that he would help his people meet other teachers once he was no longer with us. He was telling the truth. Thanks to my time with Osho I have come in contact with other teachers and other teachings, and in the process been branded a traitor and ex-sannyasin by those delusional clowns (every guru has a few around) who imagine themselves to be preserving Osho’s inheritance. Unbelievable, but true.
What attracts me to Gurdjieff’s Work is no nonsense practical application. There is nothing vague about it. You follow the instructions on the packet diligently and, if you are earnest about it and put what you are taught into practice sooner or later you begin to perceive positive changes in your being that are are tangible. You know in your heart that you are moving in the right direction. On an external level life begins to look different, you begin to understand why the world is the way it is in its myriad forms. It is not easy and the more you focus the more the mystery unfolds and begins to make sense where it did not previously. I see that part of my preparation for embarking on the Work came from sannyas. All that ego-busting, cathartic meditation techniques, group therapy, laid the foundation for me to work from. It is folly to believe that Osho’s meditation techniques are anything other than stepping stones. I am certain Osho knew what he was doing on this level. It is no coincidence that references to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky have been made recently on SN, perhaps the only sannyasin website that allows something new to happen instead of trading in tired spiritual clichés. Something is definitely in the air.
As some of the SN regulars are very much aware I don’t have a problem in expressing my views. That said I must be truthful and inform you that I have hesitated for some time before letting this article go out of my hands. The reason being that I am talking about matters that are seen by myself as sacred. Soul talk, one might say. I wish to present an alternative vision to the party line. Osho played the role but he did not wish us to become guru worshippers, well, at least now that he is dead . He loved inner freedom and just like any other intelligent person who loves something he wished to share that which he loved. If you are sincere in your search for consciousness, light, and you cannot feel an expansion in your being, a certain sense that a positive growth is happening in your inner world, real understanding is truly happening , that you still believe that changing things in the world will change your psychological state then that means you are stuck, fixed, fossilized. The good news is that you can do something about it.
Osho was out to make an impact on a lot of people and he succeeded. Gurdjieff was more focused on working on individuals. As it happens these two remarkable men and what they taught work well together. So if you are experiencing a sense of limitation in your search why not take a jump into Gurdjieffs Work because many of the tools Osho created are great to have under one’s belt and will come in handy on the journey. The Commentaries may be expensive and difficult to get a hold of, but well worth the outlay. They are in essence the teaching that has always been there and always will be. Perhaps the seed that is this article will fall on barren ground, but if it takes root in the fertile soil of one person’s heart I will know that it was a good move to pass what I have to say onto you.
Someone mentioned recently here on SN that Osho had said Gurdjieff’s Work was not complete. I’d say the same thing could be said about Osho’s work. There is too much fantasy going on in the sannyas world in relation to Osho and what he taught. Had a more complete teaching been implemented before Osho died there would have been less space for imagination today. People think that hearing an Osho discourse or reading one of his many books will change their lives, but after hearing it or reading it they remain just as they were before….otherwise with the communication technology we have at our disposal today the world have changed long ago and it hasn’t. That is , unless you apply what Osho taught in a practical way.
A change of being is a much deeper problem than changing your furniture around, because only you and you alone can do that and it requires commitment. Besides, perhaps like nearly everyone else you are somehow content to remain a cabbage on this here people farm. Food for the moon, as Mr G would have said.
Lokesh
Lokesh, seems a lot of effortless-effort has gone into this post & I thank you for it.
Thanks, Kavita, I enjoyed writing it.
Smooth and flowing prose, though contents are filtered out from the writer´s own mind, but this is with everyone who writes commentaries on the giants of the past.
Still, Masterpiece article. Lokesh can really write thesis on the comparative study of G & O and get doctorate.
I am an Osho disciple and I also like Gurdjieff teachings and use some of His teachings. I was at the Ranch and during the building crunch we were working very long hours (day and night), it felt like a Gurjieff experiment to tap into our hidden energy.
Also, in Oshonews I read what Osho said to the actor Terence Stamp when he took Sannyas. It seems he was involved with Gurdjieff teachings. What Osho says clarified for me the different aproach to meditation from each teaching, maybe you will find it interesting. I like and respect Gurdjieff, but Osho is my Master.Thanks for your fine article.
Ok, how does G’s or Osho G is seen in your life? Give a light version, so that even I understand it.
MOD: FRESCH, COULD YOU CLARIFY, PLEASE, “how does G’s or Osho G is seen in your life?” ?
I would like to hear Lokesh’s own experience in his own life, some real experience when, how, what way etc. it was taking place in his life.
Fresch, ‘The Chronicles’ came my way during a very difficult time in my life, a long time ago, and I can honestly say that they helped me tremendously. Basic rules exist, like practising self-remembering at least once a day. One of the main practices is to create a split in one’s self, wherein there is the observer and that which is observed. From there one can begin to see that we have many distinct ‘I’s inside. Some appear often, others not, depending on external circumstances or which way the inner wind is blowing etc.
One begins to notice that certain ‘I’s are very negative and feed on your energy, akin to psychic vampires…as in, ‘what’s eating you?’ Those are the first ones that need weeding out. One does that by stopping feeding them, something which we normally do unconsciously.
Another set of negative ‘I’s – gang if you like – are those which are always keeping accounts, whereby identification with them leaves one with the sensation that you are ‘owed’. That is a more subtle part of the work. And so it goes.
I’ve looked into many different paths…and walked them. It is interesting to note that, be it Advaita Vedanta or Dynamic Meditation, you still have to live with your self, or in this case, selves. We actually all live in a vast private world and somehow we know it. You can sit down by a friend and share the same physical space but internally be a million miles from each other.
Yet most people tend to ignore the fact that how they are experiencing their inner world makes the external world appear as it does. Instead, they seek distraction in its myriad forms to take them away from their inner world. Just like in any great city there are areas that it is best to stay away from. Fresch, would you go down a dark alley in Johannesburg on your own? Of course you would not. But there will be times that you enter places like that in your inner world. Why? The Work can teach you how to navigate such places.
The longer I live, the more I see that suffering is unavoidable. Suffering is one of our greatest learning tools, yet we all want to avoid suffering. I want to be as well equipped as possible to work with life’s suffering. Remember, when Osho died that when offered a shot to keep him going he refused, saying the last few years in the body had been hell. He was human just like the rest of us and not immune to suffering. Death for him came as a relief and Osho was a pretty enlightened chap. How will you fare faced with a similar situation? Best tool up with whatever is available to face life’s tempests and perhaps prevail.
Being a sannyasin you must be aware of Osho’s witnessing technique…become a watcher on the hills. In my experience one can take that a bit further and fortify the witness in a tangible way. One way is to follow the way of the Work and practise what it preaches. It is not a teaching that has a mass appeal. When the shoe fits…in my case it does.
I suggest if you are interested, Fresch, and not just curious, to check out the ‘Commentaries’. I have been hanging with them for 25 years and will continue to do so.
Excellent article, Lokesh, thanks.
A few random points…
How do you explain having willingly submitted to that sort of ‘cleaning-by-toothbrush- regime in Poona One? Did it actually help you in any way, do you think?
Totally agree regarding the need for persistently unremitting effort, commitment in what might be termed ‘the way of the spiritual warrior’. ‘Easy’ it most certainly isn’t, despite all manner of charlatans’ seductive claims, growing seemingly exponentially by the day.
The first thing Osho ever said to me was, “Be wholehearted in meditation”, which surprised me a bit as I’d always been like that with both his techniques and earlier, in Maharishi’s TM. However, as time went on I realised that the word ‘meditation’ meant far more than mere formal methods, eventually embracing the whole of one’s life.
Not for the faint-hearted, for sure, and there have been plenty of times when it’s all seemed just too hard, although I’ve always managed to keep some sort of ‘meditative thread’ alive, even if only out of pure survival instinct.
SD enquires, ‘How do you explain having willingly submitted to that sort of ‘cleaning-by-toothbrush- regime in Poona One?’
That sort of thing kind of phased in during the mid seventies. In retrospect, I see it was all kind of half-baked and experimental. I suppose I was going with the flow, even if the flow happened to be toilet cleaning.
‘Did it actually help you in any way, do you think?’
I kind of doubt it. You see, SD, I was often in trouble with some of the so-called Zen-mistresses, like Diksha and Sushila. I didn’t view those two in an enlightened light. They were bullies who fitted the job to a certain extent. Nonetheless, Osho put them there and if you wanted to play that was part of it.
At times I felt guilty about my ‘resistance’, about telling the Zen-mistresses to shove their insane jobs up their fat asses. In retrospect, I am glad that I did. I was a rebel within the rebellion and I occassionally received a nod from the old man that conveyed to me that I was right not to swallow all the bullshit that was part of the great experiment. It was in a weird way fun, but as the old song goes, ‘I won’t be fooled again.’
I’ve never really been attracted to Gurdjieff, except as someone of ‘interest’, almost for ‘entertainment’, although I can see how his recommended practices have influenced even me, via Sannyas etc.
These multiple inner ‘I’s, ‘voices’ – in the 80′s the concept was used by Hal Stone (surely in California?) to create the method of inner enquiry, a sort of therapy-with-spiritual-pretensions, called Voice Dialogue. I came across a few people very much into it, but it never appealed to or felt right for me.
A Gurdjieff would surely never have ‘mass appeal’, he’s just too extreme, and thus easily labelled as ‘mad’, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he had (or has) nothing much to offer.
I like it, Lokesh, that you go so earnestly and intensively to this subject, I can really feel and hear the wind in your writing.
It so true what you share about suffering. That’s such bullshit lying that you would become ”healthier and happier”. And still, as we know, if you persist, that will happen. But not in some mental body/brain building way. Not any way you think. My experience is, your suffering becomes worse – or in other words, deeper. The master’s twist and horrible joke is in that – once you have been lured into it, there is no turning back.
I just read that ”the 3rd eye ” is located in pineal gland and it produces euphoria and visions. It was quite amazing since I do not rank euphoria or visions so high, even if I do like them a lot. Like many other sannyasins, I do have a lot of many kinds of experience (!) of those. And so what? Exactly, so what, since you always come down too? Valleys seem to be more difficult. A friend said long ago that people who went for Advaita got really bad afterwards because there were no such grounding methods like osho has.
Watching, self-remembering is definitely one – just right in the process. Whatever process you are in at the moment. I did my share of toilet cleaning like you, but not in Pune. It was irritating, no question about that, but in a way ok, because I have such a strong ego, thinking I am somebody (however, it involves also thinking I am total shit too). So, you see, that idea is always there.
For most of the time doing dynamic or Mystic Rose, I tried to get rid of the negative feelings (express them and then feel good). However, because I did them such an extensive amount I also developed a kick of watching what is happening in my body/emotions etc. simultaneously. That kick I kind of bring to my ”normal life” – at moments. Just noticing. And for this you need some practice. Slowly, I can bring it to wider spectrum of just noticing to my life.
However, if I listen to some therapist going, ”Your mother, father, inner man, inner woman, passion etc. etc.” endlessly, I do not think that is any watching, perhaps beginning of it. You do some things (groups, practices) to be able to leave the past and future, be here and now and bring it (watching, noticing, self-remembering) to your life. The one thing is that it’s a long and horrible journey, as you write, Lokesh. It’s long; you really have to persist on it.
Friends on the path really help it. I think Osho wanted to create that in sannyas. That is one big story, quite failing right now. But I appreciate this at SN. And I appreciate you sharing, Lokesh.
PS: I love Mr G like I love Osho, for many reasons.
Cool.
Looking back, I’ve never enthusiastically been in a room of aspirants to which I have sought a season ticket return. It may not come as a big surprise to my online fans (titter) that in all honesty, the pay-off for low level intense searching was not worth the payments (although for the Osho in me I’d probably do it all again because It-He-I hit all the right notes when the time came, despite the failures, and opened-opens the mystic heart-vision connector…)……Though it was a worthwhile ideological attempt at awakening from mass bourgeois pub-mate slumber and societicide, which helped a lot emotively and to break free of family fascism.
I don’t remember ever recommending a single ‘process’ or spiritually worthy ‘attendance’ to ‘wisdom’ or ‘gnostic deliverance’ in my life, despite enjoying some transcendent moments through and in immersive collaboration with others or even in myself ( as a result of being a little bit off the daily scale of conventionality). Simply because I couldn’t care less about the wisdom ‘product’. Or rather, the packaging and…here’s the rub…
I like myself better for all the two hoots I enjoy these days. Much, much more than the muck-raking of yesteryear…I’m still uneasy, full of disparate, dissolute tensions that prevent atonement and self-reverence …but I’m really glad with my gladness and take on life. And I prefer that homely conviviality, with lashings of piss-taking than all the frankly butch collective pseudo-pugnaciousness of the old days.
I don’t have a situational model to whom or which I’d yank myself to, to find the end of any real or imagined division in myself. But there again, I was never impressed by those who did, at least not in the sannyas circle or similar advaitist etc. circles.
Frankly, most of the conscientious meeting-goers and cushion sitters (imo of course) had about the same charisma as a brick in their private lives and less than the friendliness of our recently departed dog or cat, who knew just when and how to give you a reasssuring nudge or look or lick. That, to me, is worth far more than the chilled air of what was so repetitively touted as non-ambition, but without the due care that such earnestness would ideally have created amongst a true and dependable community of souls which for me, personally speaking, remains yet to manifest as a real Cathar community. Or perhaps it’s just me who secretly prefers animals to people.
Do I believe what I’ve just written? Well, some of me does, although of course it’s not for writing in stone for eternity…it’s just tonight’s mood perhaps, though not less valid because of it.
I may not be able to clarify this theme even if asked, certainly I can say that I was at the bus stop today deliberately noticing myself waiting…and I would have preferred the attentions of a sexy bint eyeing me up instead, for all the good my own self noticing was doing for me. Girls or self-noticing…? Easy decision really. It’s all about fessing up to what really grabs your fancy. Although I do love to mix the two on a good night.
Enjoy yourself as I’m not trying to set a prioritised agenda here for anyone else.
TTFN
I catch your drift, Martyn. Not quite maudlin by a long shot, just a whiff in the air. It kept me reading and created a sense of who who you were in a passing moment.
Next articles, please, ‘Osho and Mr. B’ and
‘Osho And J&J’ (Jesus and Jiddu Krishnamurti)
From the world around us, other day I came across a video from Mooji. It was his Satsang in Rishikesh. It reminded me of the videos of Poona one. Youthful devotion and spiritually relevant questions, “Since I am using your toothpaste, my gums don´t bleed” etc.
After 5 minutes I closed that page but there was a satisfaction, instead of watching blockbusters of past on tv screens, there are people who travel to watch the latest show.
Every generation needs few courageously foolish people who go here and there not for employment opportunities but something intangible.
My Salam to all of them.
What is the essence in the milk?
Definitely not high content of water.
So a scientist who spent seven years in Nestle plant after his graduation decided to create a dairy farm where milk will be produced in powder form.
One can add distilled water oneself.
It is touted as newest life food.
I am sure, neo-sannyasins from the past will feel identified with this product. It fits with their innovative spirituality.
Just saw a first time photo from ancient days. Maybe few of the writers are standing in the line. Also they can tell, whether this energy has an iota of Gurdjieff in it!
Anyone contemplating Easter with a carnivore, then politely or insultingly decline the offer…
Guru Mooji, the meat eater….
And now I am sitting and thinking whether I should remain with Osho or move to Lokesh’s teachings!
Beautiful article, Lokesh, but cannot not notice how much you like to preach yourself….
Well, Chetna, I’ll put it like this:
What does remaining with Osho actually mean to you? I will return your attention to something Osho said in the opening quote, “Gurdjieff was trying to take away all your consolations and foolish theories which go on helping you to postpone work upon yourself.” If you don’t feel this relates to your space, good. If you experience the desire to somehow work on yourself, whatever that means to you, and you feel you are doing so, good.
It would be a mistake to move to my teaching, because I do not have one and after studying the matter for some years I have to be honest and say that the teacher’s mantle does not sit comfortably on my shoulders. I don’t really feel that I have attained anything that I can teach, but I do feel fine about sharing.
‘Preach’ as a word has its roots in proclaim. So, yeah, I suppose I am proclaiming something, although I see myself more in sharing mode. I enjoy to write and use SN as an opportunity to express that.
“What does remaining with Osho actually mean to you?”
It means not to go even more schizophrenic trying to run around different teachers and paths to arrive to the same conclusion that there is nowhere else to go but “IN”. Remaining with Osho means to go deeper with his meditations, discourses that are an inspiration on the journey inward. Osho makes my heart sing and makes my life more rich and joyful – why to go elsewhere? In fact, elsewhere the message is actually the same. Osho’s message is available, his tools are available, and even his presence – what is left to do? – GO IN.
I do hope the desire “to work on myself” fades away too and I just live and enjoy simple things. I think practice of meditations alone can bring a lot (i.e. take away all the desires), much more than a mental masturbation that is so popular these days. I am actually surprised you brought in Gurdjieff, having stayed with Papa-Ji.
I agree, Lokesh, with the spirit of your message (albeit a bit less humble than I would have liked).
“In fact, elsewhere the message is actually the same.”
Just to say the essential message is “go in” might be true, but it begs a lot of questions, Chetna. The fact is, different teachers teach in different ways, with different perspectives, for different types of people, different psyches. Perhaps that’s why they exist?
“Osho’s message is available, his tools are available, and even his presence – what is left to do?”
Is “his presence” available? Or is it just our imagination, memory?
“The fact is, different teachers teach in different ways, with different perspectives, for different types of people, different psyches. Perhaps that’s why they exist?”
Absolutely! Although if you are one type you do not need to try all types of teachers, do you? That’s, of course, if one can recognise. Running around without going deep into anything is also no good, don’t you think? Can be helpful, but a waste of time in the long run.
“Is “his presence” available? Or is it just our imagination, memory?”
I am sure a lot of the time it will be the imagination, but what is not in the world of Maya? I know most sceptics are dismissive of “presence”, “soul”. I am quite comfortable with all that through experience and imagination.
“Is “his presence” available? Or is it just our imagination, memory?”
SD makes a very good point here and in relation to Gurdjieff’s Work an excellent one.
Imagination is, according to the Work, one of the main forces we must struggle with. This has nothing to do with directed imagination, which is an extemely valuable tool when used intelligently. Passive imgination is another thing entirely. This kind of imagination will suggest all kinds of things that never actually happened or are actually happening, because while under its influence you will be entertaining all kinds of fantasies, including spiritual ones. Self-observation eventually destroys passive imagination because, sooner or later, one will come to the point that you see that you are simply imagining things.
I fnd Chetna’s remark, “It means not to go even more schizophrenic trying to run around different teachers and paths to arrive to the same conclusion that there is nowhere else to go but “IN” “, to be limiting and negative. There might be for some nowhere else to go but “in”, as she suggests, but there are many differant ways to approach it. I feel it is healthy to meet different teahers and get a taste for what really suits you (for want of a better expression)…there is no need to run around to do that. In fact, if you feel the need to run you are almost definitely wasting your time, because really authentic teachers are few and far between, and it is best to approach them slowly and not at a run.
Chetna, if it ain’t broke no need to fix it. As for humility…as you are, so it will appear. That is one of the points I am making. One can only be truly aware of where you are in the inner world. Where someone else is will only appear so due to the place you are standing. How many times have you judged where someone is at and later discovered you were completely wrong? Innumerable times in my own case.
Chetna, You seem to put Lokesh (or your self) on some kind of pedestrian, I wonder why.
Why do you not just share your own experience on the issue?
MOD: POOR PEDESTRIAN! HOPE HE (OR SHE) IS OK….
Mod, so true. Thanks, again.
MOD: SO WOULD YOU LIKE TO EDIT THAT POST?
Mod, don’t be a spoilsport. Besides, I don’t believe Chetna wishes to put anyone on a pedestrian.
It does not matter really. Russians say something and mean something else. Waste of time to interpret.
Anyway. I never understood especially Russian bankers living in Europe. But they are in Pune too. When Russians do not enter your home (or across your borders), all is fine.
Which suggests to me, Fresch, that you come from eastern Europe. And therefore either might see Russians more clearly – or might suffer distorted vision through your own and others’ (perhaps understandable) prejudice.
Sure, SD. You do not know any, I suppose.
No, Fresch, I’ve hardly come across any Russians. The only one I can clearly recall is the young man who drives the Hare Krishna free-food-for-all van around north London, who’s a ‘good advert’ for his people (and for his religion). Apart from being generous to all with the food and ‘free gifts’, he once stopped his van and gave me a lift, which was most welcome at the time.
But I notice you’re non-committal re my suggestions, once again resorting to the neutral “Sure,SD”, as if that’s a proper answer! I wonder why….
Good write-up, Mr Lokesh. For length I give it 10/10 but for content I give it 6/10 because you are not being a journalist but merely reporting your personal, and perhaps to some, narrow experience.
“Yet no other teacher influenced Osho more than Gurdjieff.”
Yes, perhaps in his early days, but overall I feel he was far more influenced by Nietzsche.
“Basically, he said the same thing day in, day out and spiced it up to keep it interesting.”
That is what I mean with the word “narrow” above.
* * *
It is interesting that Chetna has entered the fray. Last year she put us in touch with some research which said that both Stalin and Hitler had learned from Mr G…
http://sannyasnews.org/now/archives/2603
Chetna says:
1 April, 2013 at 10:49 am
* * *
“It is not just a coincidence that Josef Stalin and George Gurdjieff were born in the same place – the Caucasus. Both were Caucasians; both have the same tradition; both grew in the same kind of atmosphere; and both were really hard men. That’s why Josef Stalin got the name “Stalin.” It is not his real name. “Man of steel” – that is the meaning of Stalin.
And the same was the situation with Gurdjieff, who was even far stronger than Josef Stalin. But they are coming from the same stock. Nobody has bothered to look into their backgrounds. They studied in the same monastery. They grew up in the same environment. They have the same kind of blood and the same kind of tradition. Their past is exactly the same. And the first effort of Josef Stalin, after the revolution, was to kill Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff had to escape from Russia.”
(Osho – Light on the Path – Act According to Your Insight)
Vartan, yes, being Russian and able to read Gurdjieff in Russian gives a different flavour of the man by the way. There are some really good documentaries made by Russians which I wish were translated that give a good account of a link to Stalin etc.
Any Russian knows it is IMPOSSIBLE to follow Gurdjieff for longer than 2 pages, whilst with Osho’s mind it is so light and easy! I think Osho is a far more Master than Gurdjieff, or in other words Osho is more accessible and straightforward, even in his style to confuse us….
Very good, BV.
I feel “home” with what you posted, Chetna (1.42 pm).
And what a beautiful surprise after a ride on the bike to the market place
and also seeing it different now that what I posted yesterday did go to no-where…(had been quite upset…yesterday)
so now
you are spared and me too -
late afternoon sun
bright
and the tress are in full blossoms
Madhu
A little while back I was stuck in Rome airport for about six hours.
As with all airports they were designed for the relaxation of waiting delayed passengers as much as Indian public toilets were designed by aromatherapists on a bad day at work.
So there was I having had my evolutionarily-designed eardrums assaulted by the recurring, multilingual, ‘ping-ping-dong’ announcements of this terminal place, as my eyes were trying to burrow inwards to a place of not only not-knowing but also of not seeing the effulgent fluorescent light of the eternal boarding lounge of life.
My body had also contorted into several foetal type positions on window ledges, and elsewhere, in the marbled halls, looking for a return to a womb that didn’t have the added sound effects of the endless, collective white noise of a mass of beings passing time unaware of the passing of time, though happy to be passing through it on the way to somewhere else.
Time was definitely passing me by, complete with isolation-cell-type isolation. At last, there was a glimmer of hope…only two hours to go, and it was then that all my attempts at reconciling myself (albeit in that distorted, lounging, vip passana-ed self-noticing way ) during the previous six or seven hundred hours came to surprising fruition. What happened was this…
In one of the snaking queues I had espied a man wearing two hats…yes, I looked again… definitely two Australian-type bush hat fedoras, one perched atop the other. Then, as my eyes scanned downwards I saw double yet again. Now I know long periods of restlessness can lead to poor eyesight so I peered closer, being about thirty feet away…and the truth was confirmed: this man was not only wearing two hats, but also two belts holding up two pairs of trousers around his slim and saggy waistline…An ordinary, middle-aged, slim guy, who was about to provoke in me such insight that even the ensuing giggles that started to launch from within me could not be contained acrosss my beaming face.
It was one of those moments where I saw paradox in all its glory…those attempts at noticing myself with another internal self in my best thought- watching airport moments were utterly absurd, I realised…but instead of giving up in routine disappointment…there was this double-hatted, double-trousered, double-belted man who, unbeknown to him, was a walking paradox of the resolution through dissolution. There weren’t two disparate selves, laboured by those tiring ‘either or-isms’ of struggling and abnegation.
I just laughed and laughed and laughed in great gales of giggling satoriesque relief.
Now then, I would write more but the wifi cafe here is closing so I will have to end it there…And just as suddenly as the realising liberation which I have just written about… life is sometimes surprising when in the most terminal and fully stopped ways.
TTFN
‘Psychological Commentaries On The Teachings Of Gurdjieff And Ouspensky’.
When one can expect new books in similar style, ” Commentaries on The Teachings of Osho and Rajneesh”
” Commentaries on The Teachings of Osho and Devageet”
” Commentaries on The Teachings of Osho and Anando”
” Commentaries on The Teachings of Osho and Turiya”
(Out of vast number of disciples who are earning their bread, red wine and plane tickets through the finest art of teaching the beyond, the above four names are on the top list of mix-and-match spirituality).
Shantam:
you seem to have settings on Facebook,
to someone having “Followers”. Was it 19 at the last count?
It seems to me that within every person who accepts the conventional description of “disciple” there is the psychological wish to be a “master” of some sort. The two are a twinned psychology.
Of course, not so many make a real go of it, hence the many such as yourself with your 19 followers! Are you sure your criticism of other disciples is not just sour grapes, and that you would wish to be as big as those you denigrate? Worth having a look at that, old chap.
Predictable response from Shantam:
Something like…
‘But it’s because I’m such a committed and grateful disciple that I care so much about how dreadfully people in power are behaving, which is all so wrong, that I am ‘duty bound’ by my great love of Osho, to at least try to do something about it. I see it as my ‘destiny’ somehow.
And I’m not interested in any bogus psychological theories (or indeed, in anything that might possibly undermine my self-esteem, howsoever true it might appear to you). Because they don’t apply to me, different people function in different ways.’
Hi Lokesh!
Many thanks, as always, for your realistic, ‘down-to earth’, no religious bullshit approach. I have enjoyed reading your article, and if I had a criticism, I would have to say that you have provided a lot of ‘food for thought’ here, and therefore I am not quite sure where to start! But of course, that’s my problem not yours! I shall let the content of your piece percolate for a while, and therefore I might come back to you later.
For the moment then I shall limit myself to asking you if you would care to say a little bit more about your own personal experience? In this instance, I am thinking very specifically about the line that finished ” …sooner or later you begin to perceive positive changes in your being that are tangible.”, which caught my attention, amongst many others.
P.S. To Satyadeva: After suffering the ignominy of the accusation of ‘loitering’, i.e. being asked ‘to move on’ by the ‘Authorities’ around here last week, I have only just come out of the resulting ‘shame bubble’, emotional distress etc. and found the courage to reply to your final retort to me. I would just like to say ‘OUCH!’…looks like I shagged meself with me own apparatus!
Hi Ashok, thanks for the positive feedback. I just wrote a half hour sermon on the mount for you and then the page disappeared and returned blank. Some might say that was Osho working on me, but I am at least not that delusional.
I find it is perhaps of interest to some to note than when Osho says, “Gurdjieff was trying to take away all your consolations and foolish theories which go on helping you to postpone work upon yourself”, how everyone probably believes that they are not living with consolations and foolish theories and that he was addressing someone else and not them. Such is the power of imagination that keeps us enslaved to serve planetary purposes. So when Osho speaks about consolations and foolish theories I take it on board and have a look at that, and upon reflection I know exactly what he is talking about.
That is the thing, no matter how hip, enlightened or meditative one imagines oneself to be, you still, it appears to me, are left alone with your thoughts, feelings and emotions. Left to themselves they want to run the show and I am not having it. I think people are fooling themselves with a lot of spiritual behaviour, which has nothing to do with actual spiritual being. That is none of my business when it all boils down to it. I must keep my own house in order and one way I go about that is not pretending it is otherwise.
It is a great mistake to kid yourself on in regards one’s inner condition because it is just another form of sleep and has nothing to do with awakening. Number one step in the process of awakening is to admit you are fast asleep. If you can’t take that first step you will never wake up. Through self-observation one pretty soon realizes the extent and depth of one’s eternal slumber.
Ashok, I had intended to tell a current story from my life that would provide an illustrative answer to your question. As it is I said something else. I will blame that on Osho. How convenient to have an omnipresent Guru to blame everything on. It saves you working on your self. What a relief. I can just let go and go with the flow. I am off for a siesta.
Hi Lokesh!
Thanks for all your efforts. Sorry to hear about the lost work written for my benefit…you never know, it might turn up as unexpectedly as it vanished! That’s the way God planned it, I suppose ( or as you said, “Osho was working on you”)…which, believe it not, is a line I heard in a song sung by some Christian religious group, I saw on Bible-Belt TV (a freak show that caught my morbid interest), in Texas, U.S.A, about the same time some here were on the Ranch!
Now, I just wanted to say that Gurdjieff was, to say the very least, a bit of an unusual and eccentric character and therefore of great attraction and interest to me personally. To my mind, he was certainly more colourful than many who put themselves forward as gurus.
Noted for his harsh and volatile personality, I warmed to him when I read that he had been dubbed “Monsieur Bonbon” by some of the poor children in Paris to whom he gave free sweets whilst taking his regular evening walk. Apparently, it delighted him that these children would just come and snatch the proferred sweets from his hand and run off without thanking him. For Gurdjieff, it seems, it was enough of a thank-you that they took what was on offer.
In addition, I love to watch the ‘dances’ he created, although I find them impossible to perform myself!
By the way, I would just like you to know that I sent a previous reply to this one yesterday, which the Moderator in his inestimable wisdom deemed unworthy, and ‘binned’, just in case you thought I had neglected you in some way by not answering sooner! The piece in question was not abusive or negative in any way about you incidentally!
MOD: THAT POST OF YOURS (RE SIESTAS) WAS LEFT OUT AS IT WAS IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC, ASHOK.
Yes indeed, Gurdjieff was a totally eccentric, colourful character all right, whom I too found entertaining to read about.
But ultimately, so what? What’s the point of being ‘fascinated’ by such apparent ‘glamour’ if one isn’t prepared to actually follow the man’s teachings, or at least try out his recommended methods?
What are we, just poor, bored people on the look-out for an amusing ‘show’ to fill the inner vacuum, and/or to stuff ourselves with a bit more useless knowledge about ‘great men’s deeds of the past’?
So sd, now you are talking about your self, good indeed.
Try to calm yourself down, Pluto! It looks to me like you are rattling your own cage and barking at yourself here? I think, SD, with all due humble respect, that you would be better served by anal-ysing your own divine self, instead of me in this instance, you naughty boy, you!
Which reminds me, as you have come to visit…I think I will put on one of my DRASP QUEEN frocks in your honour. You see – you have turned me into a cross-dresser! I think you might be one too, sometimes doubling up as a moderator? Oh well, whatever turns you on, duckie! (MOD: DREAM ON, ASHOK!!).
As Lokesh has said much in this thread on the need to go in and explore one’s own interior world, I would like to dedicate the following contribution on the subject to you, SD, as a token of my appreciation for all your sterling and most earnest of efforts in this regard:
On Self-Enquiry and Self-Remembering: Going-in and Coming-out again.
Are you deeply intimate with yourself, and the world around you?
Self-remember that we are each here for a very unique individual experience of spiritual growth and expansion.
Whilst we meet companions who walk alongside us for a given time, ultimately we must navigate our own distinct path. At each fork in the road, it is our work to go within and connect with our inner GPS to show us the way forward.
If we can be quiet and attentive in these moments, our inner wisdom can be revealed and deeper intimacy of knowledge and self becomes available and subsequently flowers in the exterior world. The clarity we find within being then reflected without, in signs, nods, aromas and confirmations from the Universe.
What subtle messages are stirring within a soul uniquely yours, fully open to the energies of creation? What new direction might you like to explore?
Whatever the nature of the spiritual challenge that presents itself, do not forget to pull the chain after overcoming another of life’s many obstacles, and self-remembering of course, to wipe one’s own botty first!
If you return to what I actually wrote, Ashok, you’ll see that I was referring to “we” rather than merely to “you”.
As the great Master used to say, ‘Hope that helps’!
Dear Satyadeva!
I most earnestly and sincerely hope that you are not trying to pull a ‘Tricky Dicky’ number on me now, in a vain attempt to ease your way out of a difficult and embarrassing situation, are you? I felt sure that there were distinct tones of sarcasm, condescension, impatience, frustration and disdain in your original post in reply to my very own worthy contribution.
Given your reply in defence of what you wrote, it would seem that my fears are thankfully unfounded however. I shall therefore on this occasion extend you the benefit of the doubt, and trust that your protestations regarding your innocence were indeed proclaimed in an honest fashion.
P.S. On a more positive note, please accept my gratitude and thanks for providing me with a precious opportunity to attire myself in full DRasp QUEEN regalia with matching accoutrement.
Perhaps you’re taking this rather too personally, Ashok. Yes, it was a response inspired by your expressed fascination at those incredible tales of ‘a madman’, but, as I said, I was making a point about the tendency (or temptation even) of the mind to enjoy such outlandish ‘glamour’ etc. at the expense of the ‘inner work’, which is the whole object of the exercise – as you yourself have since tacitly acknowledged.
Having read your penultimate response, I would imagine ‘The Committee’ would advise to withhold display of your DRASP in this case, as you do appear to be ‘on the right lines’, as they say (unless it’s ‘all talk, no action’, ie just “words, words, words”)…
So, keep up ‘The Good (or rather, ‘The God’) Work’ – only another dozen or so lifetimes to go – if you’re lucky! See you in Heaven then, ok?!
Nice thought, but too late for me, I’m afraid! I’m already in the other place where it’s really hot. Come on down and have some fun!
I appreciate Lokesh’s efforts. As Ashok intimates, it contains a lot, and maybe a lot of questions might follow.
Vartan and Chetna seem to attach some kind of “connection” of Gurdjieff to Stalin and Hitler.
I find this a bit far-fetched. Stalin was a pupil at the same seminary (but whether at the same time is in question) in the Caucasus as Gurdjieff, so does that mean anyone who attended a school with a tyrant is tarred with the same brush? ?
The connection with Nazism is even more remote. There was Carl-Heinrich von Stülpnagel, a German General who was supposed to have been to a few talks of Gurdjieff long before the war. He was not someone who contributed to Nazi ideology. In fact, he was part of the military wing that was always sceptical of Hitler, and was hanged in 1944 for involvement in the plot to kill him. He actually had all of the SS imprisoned in Paris to coincide with the plot, but the plot failed. So something of a brave German, rather than a Nazi.
There is one “story” that Gurdjieff stalked Von Stülpnagel, when he was head of German forces in France, to his Paris headquarters. Gurdjieff is said to have suddenly confronted him outside his headquarters, and yelled at him, “Remember, remember!” – and there was an embrace. I doubt whether this story is true, or even whether it has a grain of truth…as there seems to be only one source for it. German Generals were always surrounded by crack SS bodyguards and they would have intervened immediately and ruthlessly.
An interesting read, Mr P. And Remember, Herman Hess landed in Scotland.
Himmler was a fan of the reputedly veggie, direct gnosis Cathars, sent a team to look for their reputed gold stash at Montsegur…check out Mr Otto Rahn for further details…
Anyway, just a bit of ellipsis there…the little thing I want to say is this…personal agendas and going beyond…there was always this push for getting enraptured and no-minded etc. etc. for us adepts…which as per usual in cults meant that you did and were asked to do things that were on the list of noble priorities as per the guidelines…trouble is, it was all based on interpretation plus the added carrot of ‘getting it’…add that to human beings who are unfulfilled in anything from, at a rough guess, two to two million-million behavioural disappointments and it was a Pandora’s box of exploratory behaviours and ambition for an all-inclusive fix-me-up, daily fool’s gold.
Trouble is, that with all this jargon we had no idea how to say no, or yes, without being told it was resistance, acceptance etc.etc. etc… and a lot of the historic self-exploration, -Freudian style, led to ever more airheads or amateur deceptive, dislodged self-manipulations, to pursue the desire to release oneself from depending on the galactical milk of obligatory re-incarnation.
In some ways, I found instead that setting one’s own agenda, with the realisable skills at one’s disposable, tends to remove that ambition for beyondness and put it back squarely into areas of self-management with some degree of personal rectitude over what one can and cannot or does not want to feasibly realise. Here I’m talking of the little pleasures and not just the release of neuroses or separate ego-doms into devotional rapture. Sure, it’s nice if it happens but it doesn’t give people a very credible vocabulary when it comes down to daily life. ‘Er, yeah, I’ll have a wank then, plus a bit of meditation, a packet of peanuts and some extended noticing, oh, and a packet of crisps with a taste of the Beyond.’ Religious nutterdom separates the mundane from the aspirationally valuable.
Further, a crass inability to be unapologetically self-evident without some form of self-wrestling and an almost catholic contrite confessing of ‘unawareness’ was the opposite of fessing up and enjoying the ride. I reckon there are non-invasive methods available a million miles away from having to crash a Peugotjieff car into a tree to see if you are pure consciousness or not. I mean, who wouldn’t try something like meditation-lite if it guaranteed more pleasure for less effort?
Me, yeah, sure I regret not going into Buddha hall more often, now that he’s been gone for so long one realises and regrets not having been more attuned to his unique presence. Still, the gardens were nice to relax in after a hard day therapeutically growthing in the searing heat and sitting bolt upright in meditation as a way of life night after night…well, really, other people could do that much better than me. Despite missing out on being blasted with something otherworldly from time to time.
Delighting in this terminal bag of bones and gristle is a tough job at the best of times, and recovering lost time and territory through earnest religious practice just seems to make the task so schoolboyish that life itself begins to pall. But trying to sort it is like trying to think your way out of a paper bag.
Did anyone say ‘existentialist conundrum’? It’s a triple-pointed-letter word….
Your turn….
Top drawer, Martyn. Getting out of a paper bag is easy. You just pee on it. Of course some folks inhabit grease-proof paper bags. You can see them struggling behind the curtain but somehow they never break free. Hoots am stertin tae soon like ye ken hoo.
Here, for the price of sixpence only, is a wisdom for you Martyn: You think too much!
This article sounds really great, as great as newspaper obituaries can be.
“Judge others by yourself and you will rarely be mistaken.”
YE KEN HOO