Never Born, Never Died

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132 Responses to Never Born, Never Died

  1. shantam prem says:

    Never Born, Never Died..

    Who has coined this punch line?

  2. bodhi vartan says:

    It’s from the old testament and it was first said about a chap called Melchizedek.

    • Lokesh says:

      As Bodhi says, the expression has been around for a wee while. Quite popular in the Advaita school also, which is why, I reckon, it is used in relation to Osho. He was big on the witness thing. Have you really reached the enlightenment throne witnessing? Apparently not as the word is that as long as one is aware of witnessing one hasn’t really reached. I’ve witnessed this first hand on several occasions, while I was witnessing myself witnessing, of course. So was Osho something or someone who was never born and never died? It is a tricky question. I reckon it is better to focus on oneself in regards to such matters. Are you in touch with something that will not be born and will not die? Who knows this? Who is reading this? Who wrote it. Why did Osho make up a meditation technique that requires one to shout who? who? who?. Was this just another one of his jokes.

      • Anand Newman says:

        Lokesh, You say you have witnessed the never born never died”. If you never born never died, who was it witnessing? What was remaining?

        I am asking you to share, buddy? No sarcasm.

        • Lokesh says:

          Sarcasm is not something I often indulge in. That is, generally speaking.
          Newman, have you ever taken a powerful psychedelic? I ask because this is often what sparks up the fire in the heart for going on a spiritual search although, of course, not always. It certainly was the case for me.

          At quite an earlier age I realised there was something amazing going on behind the stage of life and I wanted to understand more of it. At one point I was quite sure that Osho had the keys to such uderstanding. Today I am not so sure and besides Osho is now history. He was, I now realize, a kind of stepping stone.

          So, over the years, I have occassionally stumbled into states that could be described as transcendental of the limited ego-self. I disagree with Bodhi when he says, ‘I cannot possibly see how the witness can be transcended, as it is a self-referential system.’ There is a certain state of awareness that needs nothing to refer to in order to know that it is. You either understand it or you don’t. To know it you have to die to everything and let go. Might sound simplistic and cliched but that is what it comes down to.

          I have no wish to enter into intellectual discussions on the matter because one cannot understand what I am describing via the intellect.

          By saying these things I don’t wish to appear special in any way…because I am not special. It just so happens that conditions were occasionally right for me to enter such states. Today I am a pretty uncosmic man…very down to earth one might say. I choose to be so as I see life as an opportunity to live and experience limitation. Without the mind and body we will once more be limitless for eternity. I don’t believe in personal reincarnation either.

          Now, back to my studio, where paint and canvass await.

      • dominic says:

        My understanding.
        Dynamic was evolutionary, ‘hoo’ being the simian phase.
        http://youtu.be/ptI7aUonZFk

    • dominic says:

      Such name-calling seems a bit harsh even for old testament days.
      Reminds me of some old school chums… Rogerizedek… Dickizedek… Willizedek…

    • sannyasnews says:

      Thanks BV.
      I know from Sunday school!, that Melchizadek gave Abraham some kind of “okay” , so that sure is a long time ago.
      But whilst not a Bible scholar cant remember anything about “never born, never died”. What source are you using, maybe Dead Sea Scrolls?
      Would be interested to tie the reference down.

  3. shantam prem says:

    Advaita what so ever it is, seems to be the real calling for Lokesh.
    I don’t mind when people go to Harrods to buy a glass of Nutella, but looks really fanatic, when they say, ” Harrods sells Nutella”.

  4. dominic says:

    Dom’s thought for the day ~
    In a non-dual state or experience, there is only one seamless consciousness appearing as a multiplicity of forms. No you separate from any other.
    No Osho or buddha outside of you.
    Just like in a dream drama, full of separate characters, that appear very real while it’s going on. Then you wake up…… into a waking dream.

    Witnessing is for beginners. I can’t see the point. Nor does it seem very doable. Honestly, can you witness anything for more than a second or two, before the mind skitters off. Ok if you try really really hard, but it’s still one part of the mind witnessing another part of the mind.
    ‘Who am I’ is an attempt to turn attention back on awareness itself, which is a step up I suppose.
    But it’s all too much like work.
    Really you’re already it, so what more is there to do but rest and relax as you are, in your very unenlightened state?
    Aah now, doesn’t that feel better?

  5. bodhi vartan says:

    I cannot possibly see how the witness can be transcended, as it is a self-referential system. If you remove the witness, you automatically also remove the universe. When watching a good movie or reading a good book or listening to a good speaker (Osho?), the witness can be lost for a while. Is that why we like movies?

    Not witnessing the witness basically means being lost in “the act”.

    All that birth and death… shows that some are not comfortable with reality. (It’s tough, I know.)

    • bodhi vartan says:

      PS Osho was lost in the act.

    • dominic says:

      There’s nothing really to transcend.
      Ultimately there’s only oneness or consciousness or whatever useless verbiage one wants to use.
      The ‘witness’ as it is usually described and made into a practice like vipassana, is the attention faculty watching other parts of the mind.
      It’s still dual. Just a game really.
      You may be right that finally everything disappears into the ‘singularity.’
      No guru, no method, no teacher, no planet, no-thing…
      The true meaning of never born, never died.
      Awareness and it’s manifestation are not separate.
      Unfortunately it’s often presented like that, with eastern attitudes preferencing one over the other, resulting in life negative philosophies.
      When the line between subject and object, inner and outer, collapses, the structure held together by language and thought (me and you) does too.
      But don’t ask me how you do it!
      Losing the witness or not losing the witness while watching the movie is part of a larger movie.
      The body is for sure geared up for survival rather than mortality.
      Anyway those who speak don’t know, isn’t it?
      Nice to see bv back in the saddle again.
      Olo ine endaxi.

    • sannyasnews says:

      I dont know whether all this talk of witnessing is actually confusing seekers.
      I feel something much more simplified like saying anything that fosters a non anxious, light and humorous disposition, and leaves one in such a state – in at least some kind of semi continuous way, needs to be courted. Anything from ecotherapy to watching good movies…

      • dominic says:

        Confusianism says… “knowledge is the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty.”

        As you say there is much enjoyment to be had from the senses…
        E.g. shantam gets pleasure from a comfortable pair of chuddies and surfing the dark internet, arpana from extensive transcribing and copypasting, and sd from eyeballing mutter meera.
        Each to his own, live and let live.
        But then there is the happiness that comes without any object, a subtle current from within… the one without a second, the indweller of the heart.
        Instead of concentration I would rather say a word like resting or some such, implying non-doing and ease. Whereas concentration, suggests focusing and effort, useful for more task related activities.
        As for guru slut, properly speaking there isn’t an equivalent word for a man. Sorry ladies!
        A man it appears just can’t have, too much sex.
        Perhaps a guru stud, casanova, or gigolo then.

      • bodhi vartan says:

        >> I don’t know whether all this talk of witnessing is actually confusing seekers.

        What seekers need are role models, and not talk. Perhaps we are fortunate in that we have Osho to point to.

  6. Anand Newman says:

    Dom ( Doom): ” Where is the monkey, where is the monkey , hee hee hee hoo hoo hoo ”

    Its not monkey. Its the snake. (:- haa haa haa hoo hoo hoo..
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shesha

  7. sannyasnews says:

    I like the emphasis from Lokesh, and even Dom if I understand him right in this string to concentrate within.
    It doesn’t matter about Osho, or in Dom’s case his multiplicity of gurus when he was a guru slut, all that can ever matter is one’s own interiority.

    • Arpana says:

      Witnessing is observing the inner landscape without Judgement, and the inner judge is the barrier to witnessing, and in the early stages is necessary to take note of judging the judging as gently as possible, become aware of the judge and the judging of the judge

  8. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dear bodhi vartan and yes – also dear sannyas news moderators

    i really loved this morning the apparanttly beside the issue
    this “the one” quote remembering an old myth (may be as precise also human being) called then
    “melchiizedech”
    i love surprises – very much so
    that s why
    did a little google-ling

    what i loved about this
    historical or non historical ?human being (a king)
    is that the happening so to say is also connected (mentioned in the new testament as well – as also may be “global” aftereffects then)

    that something came out of fashion and that is
    NO ritual murder on humans any more for religious purposes

    and yes

    WE ALL KNOW !
    don t we ? that the so called human t o d a y
    seams to go backward up to stone age time
    when we are listening to everyday news and terror with a lot of completely innocent people killed as well

    sometimes even clearly
    camouflaged as “religious” acts

    i also sensed mentioning an myth and its effects
    in an mysterious healing preventively may be bad aftereffects
    to look at a satiral drawing and post of osho and vedanta tribes
    in the background realities of really shameful court happenings
    if they then happen or not
    but
    up comings are up comings

    i loved what kavita shared concerning this matter …. black english humor may be ????
    i am not able to take it THAT easy…
    so i loved also what chetna shared concerning that matter

    knowing
    that may be shantam prem as an insider
    of indian ways to deal with this and that
    will take it all…… if you know what i mean…

    aahhh

    just now
    in the here now . de

    i had as an evening tv gift
    to remember franz kafka and his
    in a way wise foreseeing about the bugging games
    he could t digest ist

    soooo sorry-
    played not only ba the states organs but played also by so called friends

    mysterious enough
    may be
    time for mystic rose laughter

    that gave to me the last hint a culture hint

    just to poste
    it
    all
    or at least some of that
    what was on my mind-and-more-TODAY

    so

    beloveds,

    may we all have a beautiful evening and a good night too

    love

    madhu

  9. bruce says:

    I am confused. Can you please tell me, is the witness that which is never born, never dies?

  10. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    good morning – bruce

    you are confused ? really ???

    the answer to your question you can only find in yourself

    what i am finding helpful is to have a walk outside (alone)
    or to clean some shelves or some other neglected spaces in the apartment i am living in
    anyway
    everybody has to find his or her unique way

    today s morning here milky-white-grey
    rain drops are dancing

    i had a nice breakfast

    that all

    then the opportunity to give a hello to some unknown fellow traveler on a virtual caravanserai

    that s nice too

    so thank you for this

    madhu

  11. Fresch says:

    Internet is everywhere, so i could not resist this one. What is a person quoting osho, not having his own words at all, like never? It’s a playback actor..and the oscar goes to the one and only pune meditation resort facebook .

  12. shantam prem says:

    One day, I had a customer with a punctured bicycle. As I remember he was a Gora man with funky Om trouser.
    He told me to watch and witness where the needle has made the hole in the tube. After the work I told him, ” 10 Rupees baba.”
    He was happy and offered Ganesha Biri. I said, ” No baba, when I smoke, it is only Marlboro.”
    He laughed, ” You good for watching.”
    I said, “What watching? Not many punctured bicycle baba. All have now bikes.”
    Gora man said, ” Then watch the traffic. Watch the breathing, watch your thoughts, watch your desire to smoke Marlboro.”
    I thought, these people from rich countries can afford to watch. I think many of them have never worked. Only holidays.
    I think I have not seen many Gora people any more. Their guru is now every where!
    ( Gossips with a Pune Cycle mechanic)

  13. shantam prem says:

    White people are really bad. They invented pharmaceutical combinations. indigenous combinations were replaced. Human beings started living longer and healthy, and therefore population in the Banana and mango democracies multiplied.
    Really white people are very bad!

    When it is due, I won´t hesitate to give credit to any one, so much so, I will die peacefully after the shot from an M.D rather than trusting some Aurevedic thing at the time of need.

  14. shantam prem says:

    I don´t dislike white people. Their women are the best Tantra teachers. One can ogle their boobs while reciting OOMMMMM!

  15. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    lokesh (17. january 5.46 pm)

    lokesh

    too much dope in your brain
    long lasting aftereffects i guess
    even if you may now are clean

    madhu

  16. shantam prem says:

    Madhu, post your selfie!
    A photo speak thousands times more than the words.
    thanks
    Shantam

    PS-Names of the writers come automatically, so no need to type the self name.

  17. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dear shantam prem as well as all the others here

    my IT -technical abilities go below zero so to say
    i know to speak and i know to write
    but i don t know to trick the IT way -nor to compile and sometimes i don t know how to handle the computing machinery

    the reason that inspite of my longing to commune to friends and fellowtravellors as a sannyasin took so long to realize (?)
    has been this my mentioned IT-technical inability as equipment
    as well as the fact that i have been and i am quite disillusioned from the very beginning towards the HYPE of virtual enter-info -tainments

    or other words say
    the possible misuse issues in these realms
    to acknowledge that
    to be aware of that
    popped up in me when masses of people walked up in the streets
    blind and deaf and not at all present
    glued to theire electronic equipments
    people who got/are getting drowned in their “IT-almighty” phantasies by their simple technical abilities while lacking for my eye side very much integrity and maturity
    there are simply too too many

    my full name posted happened by my inability to cope with technics so to say
    believe it or not that has not been my intention
    what the posting of a photo concerns
    neither i am capable -nor -
    as the experience with rotten chauvinismus as it happened with/and from lokesh just now
    also on this caravanserai site ( a sannyas dedicated site?)

    shows
    that photos would t in any way solve the problem that the amount of respect sometimes here is also below zero

    and i am not as cool as some guys here seem to be

    my compassion
    with lots of females
    entrapped in lots of male bodies here (quoting lokesh in vice versa terms)
    is great

    so let us see how long my compassion for myself
    allows me to be part of respondings

    i simply don t know
    we ll see

    good morning !

    it s foggy and cold winter morning here
    and i woke up very early
    and found myself sitting here to post to you all and shantam and lokesh in particular

    that s the way it is

    i confess just now
    i may be glad that you are not here
    it may be that i could t take some of the roughness happening
    as well as dishonest foul-plays

    madhu

  18. Fresch says:

    I was wondering before if no one would be seeing Madhu in Crying Game movie as Dil, the transvestite. But Russian version.

  19. shantam prem says:

    As the day of Osho´s leaving the body is just few hours away, dominic you have really coined a new punch line, factual than the previous one.

    New punch line for rebel alliance.
    Never O’Byrne, Never O’Died.

  20. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    beloveds

    neither i copy nor paste it addressing you that way
    the best i can say
    i take it as a modus “operandi” and sometimes also i feel it that way

    like the child s vision
    “you are here…. i am here.. and that s enough… of opportunity”

    today s getting with my legs out of the bed
    took me four hours by ever now and then giving it a try

    now

    it s done (long shower included)

    woke up the very early morning
    when it was foggy and very dark outside and the one and only little bird
    in the court yard has been singing his or her song

    then abruptly stopped
    and an even deeper silence then

    it is sunday

    the special offer of today s
    reminding

    —-we are all blessed ones—-

    YES -
    ALL -

    that means also the ever fighting ones
    also the peepshow affine peepers
    also the some secret services gangsters
    yes even the data robbers who are into stealing identities and more
    by data phishings

    i n c l u d e d

    yes these kind of lists are long as you know
    and i know it too

    and yes
    it s quite a challenge to be blessed this way -

    in the misty fogs of the morning
    the inner cloud watchings of mine
    having had also more a misty flow than any contoured shape
    …..
    the flute player master hariprasad chaurasia came by
    with his peaces

    “call of the valley”
    “the valley recalls”
    AND
    “meditative romance”

    and i remembered the story i read in an interview (with the musician himself)
    that he was a childhood friend of osho and that they used to swim together in the river near by
    wild and free (that s nugget for lokesh)

    then the misty fog
    sent me into a documentary about buddhist monastery and the scene
    that in the courtyard
    the young monks were in the debating exercise
    throwing their arms
    clutching their hands
    and the bodies like bamboos swaying

    and yet a discipline in it all (in pair-wise settings)

    and the most important

    the LAUGHTER
    AFTER

    and then these (more then) seen pictures faded again

    still enjoying my reluctance to get up

    but what to do

    bowed down to get up
    left leg needs to exercise walking
    very much so as i didn t do anything yesterday- not shopping nor walking nor anything remarkable

    just a little cut-room peeping if you are still there and how is THAT going….

    coffee ist out (finished)

    beloveds

    have a beautiful day

    and me
    have a beautiful day

    too

    madhu

  21. shantam prem says:

    Notice-
    Sannyasnews bloggers won´t writing today.
    They are participating in meditation activities in their respective cities.
    To remind our esteemed readers, exactly on this day of 19th January, Osho left the body ca 2014BC.

  22. Heraclitus says:

    I sometimes feel when visiting here this something: rather a Paulian thing, but needs to be said:

    “Whether you talk for me or against me, you have to talk about me. You cannot forget me. And when you are talking about me, even if you are talking against me, you have not left me yet. I am still very much alive in you. In fact you are talking against me just to get rid of me but you cannot get rid of me. The more you talk against me, the deeper I will be going in you.”

    • dominic says:

      A specious and narcisstic argument that did Osho no favours in the long run.
      I am ‘against’ many things… meat-eating, islam, mass immigration, child abuse, political correctness. Are we all Priests or Politicians devotees for talking ‘against’ their corruption?
      Anyways, none of us are really talking about Osho the person, who we never knew, but our idea of him and his legacy, warts and all.
      Which is liberating, because it was difficult if not impossible to do so at the time.

      • satyadeva says:

        However, Osho’s statement is self-evidently true, Dominic, your case being a good example. Common sense would indicate that if you were as really “free” of Osho (and any other teacher or master) then you wouldn’t continue to spend so much time and energy denouncing them here, you’d be happily living within that ‘glorious’ freedom.

        I mean, what else is there for you to say? Forget any idea of convincing anyone else, although you’re surely too bright to imagine that’s a possibility? Or are you saying it to fully convince yourself?

        Perhaps, of course, you simply enjoy repeatedly airing the same views, or variations on the same old themes. If so, that could be suspiciously close to being a somewhat “narcissistic” practice itself (similarly, a predilection for overdoing ‘clever dick’ humour and dishing out carefully-wrought gratuitous insults).

        As it is, it seems you have no grounds for any shreds of gratitude for whatever you might have received from being around teachers/masters these last few decades (apart, of course, for finally realising you’re able to ‘see through’ them all and that you don’t need any of them).

        But if this isn’t true, then how about providing a list (if that’s not too grandiose a word) of such grounds for gratitude? You know, all in the interests of a balanced picture…Unless, of course, you’re too much of a ‘refuse-nik’ where ‘personal issues’ are concerned….

        • satyadeva says:

          PS: Ladbrokes are currently offering 1000/1 Dominic produces such a ‘gratitude list’.

          But if you’re looking for a bet with a very decent chance (albeit with a poor return) then you can get 1/100 (ie a penny for a pound) for a double:

          1/ That he comes up with another clever little piece about how what’s true for him is definitely true for everyone else

          2/ That anyone who disagrees with him just has to be rather, er, ‘stupid’.

        • dominic says:

          Gratitude? You crazy hippie.
          They ought to be grateful to me and thousands of others like me for financing their lavish lifestyles, and feeding them adulation.
          …And for listening to them drone on and on.
          Who doesn’t like that? You should know SD.

          • satyadeva says:

            Face it, you’re a dyed-in-the-wool cynic, Dominic. I recall you yourself ‘droning on and on’, in a rather know-it-all, ‘I can see through it all’ way about some socio-political ‘con-trick’ many years ago, on a train ride back to London after a day’s walk in Sussex. I then had the impression it was an intrinsic aspect of your personal make-up. Pretty useful at times too. Strange that I recall those single moments and little or nothing else of that day! You must have made an impression on my ever-so-naïve self…

            Have you ever really investigated the roots of this cynicism?

            You might find it’s connected to a wish to find a reason/excuse not to change, a justification for remaining the same, ie it’s at one significant level a ‘survival’ strategy. Which, of course, has its uses, it’s not totally redundant.

            But I wonder why such cynics feel the need to broadcast their cynicism and to want to make it apply to everyone else? As I’ve said before, I regard this as your error – and I understand you’ve been receiving similar feedback recently.

            • Arpana says:

              Mulla Nasrudin was sitting in the audience once,
              listening to some poor soul drone on until there was
              nobody left but him.
              “This is terrible, ” he said, looking out at the empty seats.
              “I really don’t know what to say.”
              “You could say good-bye,” the Mulla shouted up.
              “Anyway,” the speaker continued, “it is nice of you to stay.”
              “What nice!” the Mulla growled. “I’m the next speaker!”

              The Discipline of Transcendence, Vol 4
              Chapter #8
              Chapter title: The disappearance of the magician

            • dominic says:

              You’re hallucinating SD…”train rides with you” or “receiving similar feedback recently”. I have zero recollection.
              Perhaps a smear campaign, or side effects from the spiritual prozac you’ve been taking.
              There’s nothing cynical about calling out messianic cultic tarts like John de Shooter, who amounts to little more than deluded eye candy.
              There are his sexual transgressions, leaving his wife and sleeping with two sisters, who are now suing him.

              “Documents the sisters have filed in court state the three-way relationship the von Sass family seemed to cherish all these years was a painful farce. Benita claims in an affidavit that she “struggled emotionally and mentally coming to terms with this arrangement. I cried many hundreds of times over the years following, learning to cope with the daily psychological pain, and enduring what the defendant insisted came directly from God.”
              She alleges that Mr. de Ruiter told her to “sexually submit to him,” saying that it was “God’s will.” He claimed to be “Christ on earth,” Benita’s affidavit reads, and “defying him was to defy truth, goodness and God. Accordingly, I obeyed and submitted.”
              Mr. de Ruiter allegedly told her “that God had willed deviant sexual and other behaviours as well as relationships between himself and four married female followers. He was at that time [1998 or 1999] still having regular sex with two of them in addition to his wife and me,” reads Benita’s affidavit, filed in court.
              She alleges that Mr. de Ruiter “currently, and at that time, publicly preached a message of marital fidelity and honesty. The Defendant explained to me that part of his ‘burden from God’ was to act against his own message and to violate his own marriage so as to prepare him inwardly for his upcoming battle with Satan.”

              I heard that he also goes hunting for other game. What a dude!
              Still if he’s as skilled at that as his stage act, then he must miss his target a lot.

              As for mummy meera, Andrew Harvey who made her famous, recounts in his book ‘the direct path’, why he left her…
              “In a committed relationship with another man for several years, Mother Meera told him to break with his partner and get married—to a woman—and “write a book claiming that her divine force had transformed me into a heterosexual”.

              Perhaps your nom de plume, SD, should be the man who stares at goats… I mean gurus.
              “Have you ever investigated the roots of this” eyeballing?
              Perhaps it is due to early infant bonding disruption?
              Not getting the loving reflection from your parents, and therefore seeking it outside in these idealized projections?
              As for Osho on the ranch. Is it not fair to say he got mega rich (100 rollers and plenty of bling) by hard work…
              everybody else’s that is, while he was “out of it”? Albeit he couldn’t have picked a worse management team to save his life.
              All healthy signs of an enlightened master no doubt, who sees through all the tricks of ego, except his own.
              Let’s face it he had a lot to be grateful for too.
              Nothing cynical here , just plain facts.
              Makes you wonder if the two neo-cons here are not OIF plants?
              Keep taking the happy pills.

              • satyadeva says:

                No, Dominic, there’s no hallucination happening here. I recall the ‘incident’ on the train (btw, there was quite a large group on that trip, not just you and me) and I’ve been reliably informed how your extreme views were roundly publically criticised recently. So no need for any further denial, thanks.

                As for John de Ruiter, well, as in Shantam’s case re the Poona regime, I suggest we wait and see what happens in Court, rather than choose to believe implicitly in the as yet unchallenged evidence from these women. If you prefer to unquestioningly accept whatever they are alleged to have said then you are failing to apply the very stringent standards you like to think you reserve for spiritual teachers/gurus. Not that that bias would be likely to be of any concern to you, of course, with your obsessive, self-chosen and ultimately self-serving agenda to push.

                Likewise the Andrew Harvey quote, neatly taken out of context, with no indication of how the words were actually delivered or the precise situation and context.

                Your hostility to such as Meera, de Ruiter and Osho says much about where you’re actually at. You’ll clutch at anything, any little, unsubstantiated, random ‘straw’ to attempt to advance your case. While demonstrating a remarkable insensitivity to three beautiful (note I didn’t say ‘perfect’) beings.

                As for your bullshine about me, well, pathetic is the most appropriate word that comes to mind.

                Still, whatever you do, remember:
                Don’t reveal anything truly ‘personal’, keep your vulnerability well under wraps. And above all, never admit to any shred of gratitude for what you’ve received from Life. After all, your whole current agenda (for what it’s worth) is at stake.

                • Arpana says:

                  SD.
                  ‘Droning on.’

                  That’s confusing KUMBAYA.

                  Given droning on at captive audiences is what hes been doing since forever,
                  hes not likely to remember anyone who he was droning on at, in any given situation..

                  Self indulgent, self important adolescent droning is the constant, the audience is an unimportant variable.

                • dominic says:

                  Arpana, arping on from the sidelines, never a contender.
                  A repetitive one-joke wonder, but for him a giant leap forwards.
                  Sancho Panza to sd’s Don Quixote fantasist.

                  (MOD: SOME EDITING HERE)

                • dominic says:

                  “I’ve been reliably informed how your extreme views were roundly publically criticised recently.”

                  “Oh, really? I wonder where you get such ‘inside information’…I suggest you demand a refund. Or hire another private investigator.”

                • satyadeva says:

                  Perhaps you should be called by another name here then…

                  How about ‘Dominic Denial’? Or maybe more appropriate: ‘Dominic In Denial’?

                  Sounds about right to me, esp as my sources are impeccable.

                • dominic says:

                  At least your long term memory function, if true, is working well.
                  Though to try and engage with your rational mind about positions so irrationally held is a lost cause.
                  Whatever is offered up concerning the abuse and lack of integrity of these “beautiful beings” provokes dismissive denial, seemingly not cognisant or blind to the weight of facts and evidence.
                  This is the real cynicism.
                  Where there should be moral outrage and censure, there is tacit approval and bedazzled belief.
                  For an Alcoguruholic, the gurubottle is all that counts.
                  Yet you are all to eager to indulge in slanderous unsubstantiated hearsay against my good name.
                  What is the source and what are the specifics behind these lurid accusations?
                  Even for you, you have sunk to a new low and brought disrepute to the SN forum and its august body of contributors!

                • satyadeva says:

                  No, Mr D in D, I await the full picture, not unsubstantiated hearsay or reports taken out of context. You, on the other hand, simply relish the slightest hint of fallibility, ‘imperfection’ and, of course, especially of ‘scandal’ (or even ‘pseudo-scandal’), ie anything to prop up your self-serving agenda.

                  As for “slanderous, (note the comma) unsubstantiated hearsay” against your “good name”, well, you can bluster, deflect and deny all you like, but you and I both know the score on this, don’t we, eh?!

                  How deeply ironic that one so ready to condemn others by presenting second and third-hand evidence should so readily fail to recall very recent events from his own life! But that’s the self-serving obsessive for you, who follows the golden rule: Whatever you do, don’t implicate yourself, don’t show vulnerability, don’t ever reveal or even discuss anything too ‘personal’.

                  Thus, basically, for all your moralistic posturing, I find you fundamentally and wilfully dishonest.

                • dominic says:

                  “my sources are impeccable”
                  Clearly a typo. Should read,
                  “my sources are incapable.”
                  Furthermore you and arpana’s vitriolic predictive text seem to be favoured here, with videos from arpana that i would not wish upon my worst enemy.
                  While my balanced and ever civil discourse, with added humour for the benefit of all, are often being expunged or edited, which is like writing a novel and having the last two chapters ripped out.
                  I can empathize with Honeysucklerose, in saying that perhaps oshojihadis and some others are receiving preference, consciously or not.
                  A petition and internal investigation should be mounted forthwith!

                  MOD: BE ASSURED THAT AS FAR AS POSSIBLE ALL ARE TREATED EQUALLY HERE.
                  THERE IS NO SPECIAL PREFERENCE OR OTHERWISE ACCORDED TO ANYONE.
                  ANY RECENT POSSIBLY DUBIOUS VIDEOS FROM ARPANA OR ANYONE ELSE (INCLUDING YOU) HAVE BEEN DELETED EARLIER TODAY.

                • dominic says:

                  Don’t try to hit me.
                  Hit me!
                  Facts my dear boy, specifics.
                  Not this offensive tabloid journalism and innuendo.
                  Speak up or be deemed a pusillanimous bedwetter.
                  Really, I expected better of you!
                  Your pointy finger has three more pointing back at you.

                • dominic says:

                  Mod, don’t get me wrong.
                  I don’t mind any of it, just want a level playing field.
                  I think the links are usually entertaining and add another dimension.
                  Just as Osho was peppered with jokes and stories.
                  But one day moderation here allows graphics, the next it doesn’t, without much rhyme or reason, it appears.
                  It is baffling, frustrating and trivialises the energy people put in.

                  MOD: AS STATED EARLIER, ALL ARE TREATED EQUALLY HERE.
                  THE LINKS ARE TREATED ACCORDING TO OUR DISCRETION, ACCORDING TO THE GENERAL POLICY GUIDELINES OF THIS SITE (NOT NECESSARILY ACCORDING TO THE PREFERENCES OF ANY INDIVIDUAL POSTERS, HOWEVER OFTEN THEY MAY OR MAY NOT POST HERE).

                • bodhi vartan says:

                  dominic says:
                  >> Just as Osho was peppered with jokes and stories.

                  Osho was peppered?

                  Shocking!

  23. shantam prem says:

    Amazing capacity of human imagination is the base of Religions. Reading the texts one can imagine the aliveness of the characters who departed sometime thousands of years ago. It solaces the mind that “Their Jesus” is still around.
    How so ever, we the Osho Sannyasins try to beat around the bush that we are not religion, we are not nations, we have no boundries; reality is totally different. It is not even movement; for movement also their needs some velocity, some action, some continuous change.

    It is upto the wise people who are the faces and the spokespersons to decide, what they would like to be called, Sannyas Religion, Osho Cult or Osho´s pond( Sitting silenty, selling books, world change, We watch)

    • bodhi vartan says:

      >> Reading the texts one can imagine the aliveness of the characters who departed sometime thousands of years ago.

      If you met Osho you wouldn’t have to imagine “the aliveness of a character”… but what does it mean now?

      Oshoism will not be a world religion. It had its chance and blew it. It will be a ’70s cult, that finished with the disciples in-fighting after the leader ‘left his body’.

      • satyadeva says:

        On the surface, you might appear to be right, Vartan, although as I said, a number of eastern Europeans and Nepalese would beg to differ, at least in their cases.

        But I suspect these things work ‘underground’ in mysterious ways. Osho touched so many people that his teachings, his truth, his very way of being have, through these hundreds of thousands (millions?) entered the human psyche and are thereby now a ‘resource’ from which present and future generations are and will be able to draw.

        This will happen either consciously, people knowing him and his teachings through sannyasins or books and videos, or unconsciously, via a sense of ‘rightness’.

        I should add that these aren’t my ideas, of course, they’re from another source, a particularly reliable one.

      • dominic says:

        I’m afraid nobody gets the chance to be a global religion anymore. Religions were political weapons that built nations and empires, the rest is window dressing. Those job opportunities are long gone.
        Everything else is called a cult.

  24. Fresch says:

    A friend wrote from pune:” less people than ever, half of the western people are in black robes or workers ( not paying workers)”..you can see it in their pictures (even they are in maroon in them). It’s becoming.. or is a private resort.wow.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      I just cannot see how Osho’s work has any relevance in the world today. Whatever the work was, it did not appear to enlighten many, considering the numbers involved.

      There’s a new book out on Ron Hubbard called something like, “Let’s go sell ‘em a piece of the sky” … it feels like there was a lot of sky-selling going on in our parts of the wood too.

      • satyadeva says:

        Perhaps, for a start, you might consult the eastern Europeans around Swami R and the Nepalese, Vartan?

        Although it’s a long way from what seems to be ‘the early stages’ to ‘awakening’ and ‘enlightenment’, and anyone who’s ready for ‘the real thing’ would be well advised to seek out a genuine living teacher rather than a dead master. Or wait for him/her to mysteriously arrive….

        • bodhi vartan says:

          SD, for some the message is enough but for some others, the messenger is important too. You are one of the others. But it’s ok.

          I’ve made lots of ‘Nepalise’ friends, and any friend of Osho is a friend of mine and I don’t care which Osho “”book”" they are reading.

        • dominic says:

          Sd who exactly is your “genuine living teacher” consort these days and what are you “manifesting” together?

          • satyadeva says:

            I don’t have one, Dominic. Although I go to Mother Meera’s visits to London every six months or so, if I’m around at the time, and I’m currently enjoying listening to and reading John de Ruiter.

            I’m a long way down the ‘spiritual food-chain’, although I acknowledge the help several teachers have given and think myself very fortunate in that respect.

            What am I “manifesting”? In Paul Newman’s immortal words, “jus’ gettin’ through the day!”

            • dominic says:

              And yet you promote the “genuine living teacher” schtick?
              And you’re not the only one.
              Do as I say not as I do, eh?
              There’s a wallmart full of them out there, if you can be assed, and most are westerners these days.
              Put your money where your mouth is.
              Deep down you probably don’t believe in the whole merry-go-round either, and would rather hang on to memories of the dead guru’s society.

              • satyadeva says:

                There’s a time for being with an alive teacher and a time for living without one – often enough forced upon the ‘pupil’ when the teacher dies. Ever thought of that, Dominic?

                I feel no pressing need to find a living teacher, I have plenty to get on with regarding living whatever I’ve imbibed or feel is right for me from the many years of being with living masters.

                You’re always looking to justify your scepticism, your cynicism, but this latest argument, par for your particular course, is specious, crude.

                • satyadeva says:

                  PS: Bet 2 of my advised ‘double’ already landed!

                  Matter of time before bet 1 comes in (see 12.06pm post)….

                • dominic says:

                  It’s all very well placing bets SD, as I suspect you get a greater thrill from sports than spiritual snake oil.
                  But you need some basic maths for that.
                  Trouble is you’re full of contradictions, so that when adding 2+2, you keep getting 3!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Just fatuously foolish crap, Dominic, not even ‘clever’. Try harder next time!

      • dominic says:

        “Relevance” is rather personal.
        Although the work is much fragmented and reduced, I think it still has power and benefits, especially for newbies. But it’s former glory as a sweeping global movement has been eclipsed. C’est la vie.
        There’s quite a few ‘enlightened’ teachers out there who have been through the osho mill.
        But I find the whole notion of enlightenment quite dubious and mythical anyway.
        Papaji probably had the greatest McEnlightenment franchise going in recent times, though he still called all his emissaries leeches, that he just wanted to get rid of. And he said that nobody was worthy of his final teachings.
        Ramana only named his mum and a cow as enlightened.
        Deep down, enlightenment is a cut-throat business. Gurus seldom want to promote competition, equal status and losing customers to others.
        Though a new openness and discussion seems to be emerging out of old school gurudom.

  25. Fresch says:

    In well-run family companies transition of management to the next generation takes 3-5 years, first they leave the every day involment and join board of managers.. In pune they are not even there, what self delusion. These are just basic, the most simple steps to protect the interest of the company’s development.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      A well run family business… who are you kidding? Most family run businesses collapse when the originator passes away because the kids turn out to be asses. Osho was not a family business anyway. It was a one man band. And nobody I know, can ever whistle that tune.

  26. shantam prem says:

    Neither people in North Korea deserve that dick as an adminsitaror nor Osho movement deserves whimsical Chief Rabbi jayesh, who emerged as saviour of Osho when on the run.
    People in North korea won´t be able to revolt unless outside support emerges to break the iron wall. People selling Osho books, Meditation techniques, running paper or net magazines cannot revolt, because they are whether too polite or full of guilt as during the time of distress, It was Jaeyesh and not they to come forward.
    In any case, as long as two western disciples want to be the chief controllers, Sannyas will remain in Coma. I know many people are questioning and why they have spend precious years of their life in that “high promised low return” Ponzi scheme called Sannyas!

    • Arpana says:

      Two men were imprisoned. It was a full-moon night; both were standing near the window of their dark cell. The full moon was there. One was looking at the moon, and it was the rainy season — must have been like these days — and there was much water and mud just in front of the window. Dirty, and it was smelling
      and stinking.

      One man continued to look at the moon, the other continued to look at the mud. And the man who was looking at the mud, of course, was feeling very miserable. And the man who was looking at the moon was aflame, aglow; his face was reflecting the moon; his eyes were full of beauty. He had completely forgotten that he was imprisoned.

      Osho.
      A Sudden Clash of Thunder
      Chapter #6
      Chapter title: Life Undefined is What God is

    • bodhi vartan says:

      Shantam, it was Osho himself who gave the reins to Jayesh because He wanted His organization to go in a particular way.

      Trust.

  27. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    ARPANA (20.january at6.00 pm9

    arpana , friend

    no laughter
    no moon
    no mud

    just a little bliss attic

    and then
    SEE
    the urge to say
    thank you so much
    about getting a “stick” in the “stuck”…

    ash this

    thank you for posting

    madhu

  28. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    and PS for you -

    arpana

    sorry for the many bad spellings and writing mistakes
    it s not my mother tongue and IT just took me over ?

    madhu

    i ve

  29. shantam prem says:

    Just the last year, on a street somewhere in a capital city, a woman, foreigner looking woman enjoying the newness of the city, its sounds, colours and smell still could not imagine, how come suddenly group of rowdy young men came from nowhere and started pinching her, molesting her, ripping her clothes off.
    Now story can take two turns, it depends upon the mind-set, whether some brainy man were passing that road on the way to his guruji or some brave young heart were passing.
    First version, The woman felt a ray of hope. There was a sound of coming car. Driver has seen from the distance of more than 250 meter. what kind of drama is happening on the road. He felt for a moment to horn, so that boys can run away and leave the woman, but another thought came, if they have the pistol, they will puncture the car, he will be also in difficulty and moreover, he will miss the discourse of Acharya Shree Shree.
    Before coming closer to the scene of crime, he takes the turn into the side road. Shit, it will take him 7 minutes more to reach his destined place!
    (I have no idea that Brainy man on the way to the discourse of his Acharya Shree has the thought, at least phone to the police control room)

    Second version-
    A man was really persuaded by his friends at least one time to go and listen Acharya Shree. They were saying , ” Acharya Shree simply blows the mind away.”
    For the sake of courtesy, this man decided to visit the last evening of the series of talk. As he was not a follower type, so he was already getting late, therefore was driving with the high speed. He could not imagine his eyes, just few hundred meters ahead, a group of four five boys were simply dragging a woman away from the street. As a vivid newsreader, it was not difficult for him to imagine, what is the matter. As an act of spontaneity, he simply started hawking his horn at the maximum just fifty meters before the point of action, and in the meantime, he also called the police control room.
    After all, for what we have the smart phones!
    From the book
    ( God is not deaf and dumb)

    PS_ Most probably future great orators will copy this story and tell in their version.

  30. shantam prem says:

    Satya deva
    What is the difference between an Avatara and an enlightened one?
    I think Mam Meera prefers to be called as Avatara!

    In India one can see, many shops selling genuine spare parts, may be I can tell few of them to get a franchise of Genuine Spiritual Teachers?

  31. Fresch says:

    Bodhi vartan, who told you osho left anything to jayesh? Yes, jayesh told you so.

  32. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    dear contributors
    dear moderators

    this day
    which started for me at least in peace
    (before data hackings as other stalking happenings on the streets then
    challenged very balance of mine)
    this day then
    after looking into the chat here at THIS website
    briefed me
    so to say
    that also at other desks
    turbulences have been happening

    what i perceive

    like that has been happening before
    ist
    that a bunch of male contributors not contribute at all
    BUT
    are in an inconceivable fighting mood
    on top
    like always
    the for (4) AAAA “theta
    who
    sorry to say gets so much energy from nearly everybody for his obnoxious
    vain and kind of murderous statements
    the whole then
    like an open forensic asylum

    and what to say

    nothing can or could be detected from my side what the hell
    is
    all of yours concern

    well that s how they go

    some of these days…
    today

    a black tueday i would like to say

    share
    my sadness about that

    i am not that able like arpana to recall good old sufi stories
    but there is one i remembered when looking through the utterings
    it goes with protagonists in ancient india (or somewhere else)

    two
    very very poor pays ants
    who had nothing as possessions
    had some phantasies while playing with and in the mud outside

    starting to imagine the one that he owns a cow
    the other that he owns some acre as of fertile land
    and they were painting that in the mud

    then the whole trouble began
    a fence had to be painted as well
    that the cow does not destroy the crops
    and well it went on and on and on
    that both of them who had been friends before
    started fighting against each other

    so much so
    that they wanted to kill each other

    they were brought to the court

    there and then the whole story how it began
    has been figured out

    well
    THEY survived because the villagers intervened
    and the ridiculousness and the very much soul-touching side of the uproar
    also were conceived after all

    in the case
    of some of here
    getting into their gears

    i am not sure how that can end

    and that s my sadness

    evening-prayer of mine

    madhu
    (ps- i don t read correcture… i just get it GO
    sorry guys-)

  33. Arpana says:

    THE WINNER SOWS HATRED
    BECAUSE THE LOSER SUFFERS.
    LET GO OF WINNING AND LOSING
    AND FIND JOY.

    How to find joy? Let your ambition disappear; ambition is the barrier. Ambition means an ego trip: “I want to be this, I want to be that — more money, more power, more prestige.”
    But remember, Buddha says:

    THE WINNER SOWS HATRED BECAUSE THE LOSER SUFFERS. LET GO OF WINNING AND LOSING AND FIND JOY.
    If you want to find joy, forget about winning and losing. Life is a play, a game.
    Play it beautifully, forget all about losing and winning. The real sportsman’s spirit is not that of winning or losing, it is not his real question. He enjoys playing; that is the real player. If you are playing to win, you will play with tension, anxiety. You are not concerned with the play itself, its joy and its mystery; you are more concerned with the outcome. This is not the right way to live in the world.

    Live in the world without any idea of what is going to happen. Whether you are going to be a winner or a loser, it doesn’t matter. Death takes everything away. Whether you lose or win is immaterial. The only thing that matters, and has always been, is how you played the game. Did you enjoy it? — the game itself — then each moment is of joy. You never sacrifice the moment for the future.

    Osho.

    The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha, Vol 6
    Chapter #5
    Chapter title: Live in joy

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