Attack on Availability of Osho Videos

Freely downloadable Osho audio-video discourses at www.oshoworld.com are temporarily unavailable due to threats by OIF, Zurich

A letter from Oshoworld

Dear Friends,
The freely downloadable Osho audio-video discourses at www.oshoworld.com are temporarily unavailable since May 05, 2009 due to continuous threats by OIF, Zurich to our US server host .

Recently Trademarks applied for in 1991 by the Zurich entity, after Osho left His body in 1990, were cancelled in the United States. The proceedings of the case clearly showed that Osho had never ever wanted Trademarks or Copyrights and did not give out any such rights to any individual or organization, leave alone the Zurich entity.

The Osho International Foundation (OIF), Zurich, started to register the trademarks of Osho and His meditations soon after Osho left His body in 1990. With the support of these Trademark registrations, the Zurich entity threatened Osho centres and got Osho websites pulled down from the internet and Osho activities were restrained, monopolized and controlled.

OIF started to send legal threats to Osho centres and sannyasins engaged in the work of Osho.

On January 13, 2009, the Trials and Appeals Board of the United States Patent and Trademark Office in its decision strongly said that Osho cannot be trademarked. This decision was the culmination of a legal battle started nearly 10 years ago by Osho Friends International (OFI), an association of Osho meditation centres and disciples from all over the world.

Osho International Foundation (OIF), Zurich, filed a Notice of Appeal on March 12, 2009 with respect to the January 13, 2009 decision by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board. OIF filed their appeal in the Court of Appeals of the Federal Circuit in Washington DC. The appeal is about the correctness of the decision rendered by the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board on January 13.

Osho World is taking suitable steps for making the free downloads possible again. Many friends have written supporting and asking for reupload of the discourses.

We thank all friends for their love and support.

Your support is highly valuable and appreciated.

from www.oshoworld.com

“Things can be copyrighted, thoughts cannot be copyrighted, and certainly meditations cannot be copyrighted. They are not things of the marketplace. Nobody can monopolize anything. But perhaps the West cannot understand the difference between an objective commodity and an inner experience. For ten thousand years the East has been meditating and nobody has put trademarks upon meditations.”
OSHO
Om Shanti Shanti Shanti

This entry was posted in News, Osho. Bookmark the permalink.

116 Responses to Attack on Availability of Osho Videos

  1. Kartar says:

    Seems like the OIF tendency is to come up not with solutions but with punishments. I realize that if all you have is a hammer, you tend to treat everything as though it’s a nail. But surely there must be a variety of solutions available, especially if you have to deal with court cases.

  2. Alok john says:

    The audio discourses in English I downloaded from oshoworld were of poor sound quality.

    “…Osho activities were restrained, monopolized and controlled.
    OIF started to send legal threats to Osho centres and sannyasins engaged in the work of Osho.”

    I have only ever heard of one person, here in the UK, receiving a lawyers’ letter from OIF. People run Osho meditations here without any interference from Pune. OIF even allows Osho Leela to use that name even though it is really a Veeresh centre and they only do Osho meditations there occasionally.

  3. Sound Quality of Osho Audios

    Osho World has the same quality of Audio discourses as available anywhere. Sure there are some discourses of Mumbai days and Poona 1 days, there quality may not be good, but people still want to listen to these discourses. Almost daily, we have been receiving thanks for providing all discourses online. Now people are sad that they cannot download them and they are eagerly awaiting for the facility.
    I am sure this will be happening again and we would continue improving the quality and make it available without any restrictions from the monopolizers.
    Love to you all

  4. Can someone tell, what OFI at Bahhofstr.(Railway Road ) Zürich has to do with Osho and His vision. This road is very famous for the off shore banking industry and nicely paid escort girls. I think there was not a single time Osho uttered the world Zürich. it is more far out than Michale Jackson calling himself Anglo Saxon.
    Just Imagine, some other Master´s disciples doing such things as OFI is doing; Osho would have hammered them continuously in His discourses.
    Somewhere something has gone wrong. The Mind which was surrendered at His feet is coming out with the vengeance. The whole world is bubbling with the creative aspects of mind other than the greedy share brokers and power hungry disciples of Osho.

  5. Andreas Roth says:

    There are two aspects to this: A legal and a inner one:

    LEGAL

    The complicated trademak question is decided upon (at least in the US).

    Copyright is a different subject: If there is any person or incorporated institution to whom Osho has transfered his copyrights in written form, signed, notarized eventually, – these persons or institutions were entitled to hold copyrights and to prohibit royality free downloads. If there is no legal proof and no testament refering to the copyrights, Oshos family may be entitled to hold these rights (depending on Indian law, which I do not know).

    INNER

    Osho himself seemed not to have cared much about these things. A legal case may clarify, but also creates an atmosphere of hostility. So, if there is no written will of Osho concerning these question, Osho had to be taken by his words. And his words, expressed publicly, are very distinct and clear. If there is anybody intending to act within Oshos vision, these legal cases had to be stopped and anybody has to be allowed to see, read or hear Oshos words for free. It might reduce income for OIF, but it would bring back trust. The most important is not a resort, a ashram, some trust or a institution but the integrity of life. These legal fights will just destroy everything. Not only on a material level, but on an inner level too. It divides. It is abolutely blind, self centered, business like and not wise at all. This way, the remaining intelligent ones, will just run, run away as far a they can, away of any ashram, resort, legal institution, away of all the denial, politics and lies. Decline can not be stopped this way. On the contrary, it will speed it up. But it seems that this process of self destruction is unavoidable. The way of existence, to go on and on and on… The way to go along with existence is to change, to trust and to be honest, – that’s what I call intelligence.

  6. swami says:

    Beloved Keerti.
    What is the timeline on this appeal in the U.S. by OIF regarding the trademarks?

  7. Andreas Roth says:

    Addendum

    In my comment I used the word “trust” with two different notations:

    a) Trust in the sense of money or property being managed on behalf of another: That’s what the so called inner circle was all about. But time has changed and the remains of the inner circle are without authority. The stuctures are completely intransparent and without control. It should be transformed into a transparent structure. Dispute on questions like the one on copyrights for example could be solved by vote, organized via the internet.

    b) Trust in the sense of trust in existence: Trust in existence does not necesssarly mean to trust in some person. On the contrary. One never must give up the ability to make decisions. It is a great mistake giving anybody else the power over yourself because it is your ultimate manifestation of consciousness and freedom. No man has power exept the power given to him by others.

  8. frank says:

    hey guys,
    oif have a point:
    money is the most important thing in life.
    no money,no honey.
    he who has money,can buy god.
    other religions are for scruffy poverty-conscious beggars and losers.
    osho drove a rolls,not a pedal bike,remember?
    if we want to represent him its gotta be cartier,not casio.
    ic must maximise its assets.
    if someone muscles in on your turf,you get `em off your turf,right?
    that`s what copyrights are for ,ok?
    do sannyasins really believe that love is free?
    what have you been learning all this time?
    my god,shut your mouths and open your wallets…..

    what`s wrong with you guys,you on some kind of old world poverty trip.or something?

  9. Alok john says:

    Wearily,

    If OIF want Osho’s words to reach as many people as possible, they must use major international publishing houses.

    You can self publish or use Indian publishing houses, but then you won’t get worldwide distribution. You may be left hawking copies of Osho’s books round bookshops.

    Major publishing houses will insist on the use of copyright law to protect their investment. If they are publishing The Way of the White Clouds, they do not want this book available elsewhere or on the web.

    The alternative, in the English speaking world anyway, is to have amateurish distribution, through a few websites that are only known to the cognoscenti, and through Osho centres and a few alternative bookshops.

    Probably what OIF are doing is in the best interests of Osho’s work.

  10. mulla says:

    Beloveds,
    what the f*ck. Why waste so much time in copyright & bla bla… We need get more & more people enlightened these days.. the whole world needs our help for so much transformation…….. & we r killing each other for copyrights…Sannyasins & seekers & beloveds are falling out 1 by 1 without our gathered common vision; “rising in love & awareness”…This is the right time to hit the most number of people to gain access & shared the right tools to make the changes & transformation happening..what the f*ck…

  11. Andreas Roth says:

    Classical publishing houses and the classical way of distibution of books are loosing market shares every day. The distribution of word has changed dramtically with the rise of the internet since the 21 century. Copyright has little to do with distribution. Copyright usually protects authors and allows them to live on their works. If there was no legal agreement arranged before the death of an author, the rights are passed to his or her legal assignees. Therefore OIF must proof, that it is the legal assignee of Osho (for example, being his publisher according to contracts). If it does, it will be able to prosecute any violation of it’s rights and control the internet. Copyright also does not persist forever. It usually ends after about 70 years (depending on national law). So, if OIF wins, it will be in the driver’s seat, for the next 50 years?

  12. Anthony Thompson says:

    Ok. I had to change to this article , because in the other one no one was coming…
    so, what is the subject now?
    OIF copyrights… right, lets get on!
    I do not like Osho world because they are Indian… and I do not like Indians. I find them untidy, messy and unable to get things done the right German way…
    So I prefer OIF …

    Or deep down i just do not care.
    why don´t we just get back to the haikus story?

  13. Shanti says:

    Gguys! I have to be following you all around!
    good I found you here.
    It looks like Anthony has been smoking some of Frank´s stuff
    does n´t he?
    love
    shanti

  14. Anthony Thompson says:

    I do not know What is happening here. I have not written the previous post.
    someone is impersonating me.If that is the English word.
    I did not write that.
    Please stop this!
    Greetings
    Anthony

  15. Hev says:

    Anthony,

    Must be the power hungry disciples at it again.
    How to stop the joke of the Rolls…
    Dying didn’t even cut through the delusion.
    You and I Anthony we can share a good laugh
    at the absurdity
    of seeing
    I go to gold Bullion for refuge
    I go to the pound Sterling for refuge
    I go to the Dollar for refuge.

    Greetings as ever x
    Hungry as ‘EVER

  16. Anthony Thompson says:

    I feel deeply worried about the fact that as my email is of public knowledge any one can write in this forum or any forum for that matter using my name and email.
    Greetings
    anthony

  17. frank says:

    hi tony.
    as your jungian shadow anima shanti says–you are smoking franks stuff.
    be careful. the skunk these days can give you psychotic episodes,according to the daily mail.

    it can be a slippery slope.
    look,you have already morphed from responsible professor of oshology,phd, discoursing on “phenomenologically phenomenal phenomena and phenomenological phenomenality etc etc….”
    into a loved-up,poetry writing,haiku-toting romantic,with a touch of paranoia who has thrown off his respectable white coat,slung on a white robe and is dancing around like a dervish,spouting cryptic bollocks.

    as a practicing psychotherapist yourself,what is the diagnosis?

    neo-hippie enlightenment?
    or mid-life crisis?

  18. Anthony Thompson says:

    My diagnosis. Someone with psychotic tendencies has a lot of fun impersonating me.
    However…the person who wrote sounded like you Frank.
    is it you?
    Frankly….
    greetings
    Anthony Thompson

  19. Anthony Thompson says:

    …or I am a psychopath with multiple personalities.
    which ever the case.
    greetings
    anthony

  20. Dear Andreas Roth;
    I don´t know whether you are a sannyasin in the formal sense but your words make sense in a loud pub. Please, go on sharing your words on this platform.
    Thanks
    Osho Commune International(Facebook Group)

  21. Horatio says:

    Hey Alok John,
    Are you on a retainer with OIF, what’s the deal there?

  22. Alok john says:

    Horatio, Unfortunately I am not.

    It is just my opinion

  23. Andreas Roth says:

    Shantam, I don’t even know what a sannyasin “in the formal sense” might be. I just gave up using the name Osho has given me, because I can not be part of any club anymore. So I think that means, I am not a sannyasin.

    Instituitions, organisations, names, copyrights and other means of that kind are not ends to themselfs. Any means, any method, any technique, any therapy, any idea of “sannyas” and even a “master of masters” will become a prison, a source of endless lies if we are not abel to transcend it. Mind settings have the power to destroy lifes and create wars ad infinitum.

    I think the caretakers in Poona have done a god job in deconstracting cultlike smells in the “resort”. Osho often stressed, that he was not serious (in fact he was, he just was intelligent enough to understand humor). Now, if you need lawyers, you know it is going to be deathly serious. Same old story why the commune in Amerika failed. To me, they should stop the whole ridiculous thing, step into the fragile reality of their own lives, everybody up to his own abilities, without the support of any resort or the roles they are playing there. Only then you see your reality. To stand on your own feet, free, reponsible for yourself and uncorrupted. Powerless maybe, but living a live of integrity. I also think it would be more fun and much more intelligent to see what happend when you let it all flow freely, like a stream back to the ocean, instead of keeping it in an aquarium. If there is any truth, it will survive. It can not be copyrighted in the long run anyway. It will change, that’s life.

    Oshos experience told him, that he was not understood, not even by his disciples. Therefore he used any tool and method he could get hold of. Entertainment of all kind, manipulations, fairy tales of all kind, therapeutic techniques, meditation. Even pure lies. Osho redefined things the way he wanted it (like for example sannyas, which helped him to find audience), and he had the power to do that, because of the mass of his disciples. That’s what he needed organisation for! But today? Osho was an iconoclast, he decliend politics, religion, social norm etc. He was brilliant. But at the same time underestimated power and the consequences thereof. No wonder that there are still some guys with the same contagious disease. I met great men and women around Osho. But most of them are on their way, they don’ t go to any resort, they are on their own.

  24. Hi Andreas(Anyway what was your sannyas name), just read your response.
    There are many patients in the world of Osho, once they tasted the health, their first thought was, my God people can get hooked with the hospital, let us bull doze it. They have heard master saying,” Destroy the bridge, once you crossed.” Sure, these gentlemen have bombed the bridge, without realising that the bridge is in the fucking mind, it has nothing to do with the physical reality.
    If i have to judge Osho, i will say for sure, by focusing His attacks on the organised religions and the people who run the show their, He over estimated His own people. Unfortunately, when the power came in the hands of neo rebels, they were the first one to prove the Maxim,” Power corrupts.” It is not about the people who are administrating the 17, Koregaon Park, Pune. This is truer for all those therapists and group leaders too, who made their living by selling half cooked therapies for decades , and than took a new Avatar as Satsang givers.
    Still i will say blessed are those millions of ordinary seekers all over the world, who felt a bit of change in their life after reading His books or listening His discourses or doing sometime Dynamic Kundalini etc. These are the people, i think, who see a bit more green while looking at the green. These people are happy in their villages and towns, these are the people whocan enjoy Poona too, as a common recreation ground. These are the people who motivate their Friends to visit ashram at least once, otherwise to learn few mediation techniques, one does not need to go to Poona or India anymore. Teachers of such things are closer than the nearest ALDI.

  25. frank says:

    you are right shantam,

    now that`s what i call enLIDLment……

  26. Andreas Roth says:

    Dear Shantam,

    to me Osho was a spirituel mafioso and a thief, the most creative and intelligent one I have to admit. Osho took from others without any scruples. That’s fine to me, because consciousness can not be copyrighted. But at least be a good thief, steal in way that nobody realizes it, that turns it into a creative act. And don’t stick a copyright label on what you stole, otherwise, you just become a common criminal, a priest. That’s why all the imitators like “Rajneesh”, Arun and others, and all the neo therapie priesthood avatars selling their great spirit everywhere are so ridiculous (now please do not complain about my judgment on Arun or Rajneesh, I just don’t have the time to mention all the other great devotees). We have to go on, not imitate. What worked yesterday, maybe a barrel burst today. Creating new bridges, the ones of our time. Once you crossed the old bridge you cannot go back anyway. That’s a little nasty in the beginning, but you can’t:

    Yesterday I was laying on the meadow of our garden, doing nothing. There is an old barn with some birdhouses attached to it. So while I was silently sitting, I saw a joung bird coming out of the nest box for the first time. He hesitated for a while, but finally made his first flight. After some meters he landed on the meadow, just before me. As I did not move and he never had seen a human, he was not afraid at all. He was so excited, running up and down the meadow. After a while he tried to fly back up into the nest box. But he was not able to enter back into the hole again. Therefore he flew up on a branch of the next tree. From there he tried again to enter the nest box, but did not succed. After he tried that for some time, he started to fly over the house, again and again…

    Says Leonhard Cohen (the old one, after leaving the Mount Baldy Zen Monastery):

    the road is too long
    the sky is too vast
    the wandering heart
    is homeless at last

    And frank: I have traced some of the other threads just to read your comments. If you ever publish a book, let me know, I’ll be buying it. Do you already have any scary title for the book?…

  27. Frank,
    As an generic expression this word, EnLIDLment is more profound and fresh than the other commonly used word. I will remember this day and you to have read this word. It is pity that Enlightenment is used so often and in such a brutal way that if you say, ABC is enlightened or a thief or an asshole; it resonates the same vibes.
    And the fact is that we all are looking for EnLIDLment, cheap and nice Made in Asia products sold for the mass consumption in the west. Time to time popping up of Indian gurus, specially from the school of Osho show that demand is always there for spiritually push up bras. Any way these economical products are as fine as the expansive groups and seminars designed by some one here in Europe.
    As an Indian living in Germany, i am getting my daily needs from the medieval churches. They are empty but with full of grandiose and old time grace. New pyramid at Pune comes no where closer to them though the simple auditorium with the mosquito net could surpass these architectural wonders. To see tears of homecoming in the western people´s eyes while listening “Home is where the heart is”, has left unforgettable memories in my heart.
    So Dear Frank and Andreas, Prost! with a cup of Masala chai. I prepare for you too.

  28. frank says:

    thanks andreas.
    dont worry,if i ever complete my book,i`ll send you a copy to write a review!

    the title?
    something modest and lightweight like,

    “quattrium organum”
    maybe.

  29. Andreas Roth says:

    My god! I survived “Gurdjieff Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson (All and Everything/First)” and Ouspensky, but I guess a “Quattrium Organum” will be too much for my poor mind. By the way: Richard Dawkins “The God Delusion” is fun. One of his disciples was Douglas Adams who wrote “The Ultimate Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy”, a book which is sorted in my library between all the zen masters and old osho prints (you know, the ones with the beautiful hand made silk covers from Poona I (Hakuin nevertheless might have thrown them all away, including copyrights, but I am still too unenlightened for that).

  30. Andreas Roth says:

    And for those who are looking for a real master, go to:


    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  31. frank says:

    i wanted to be like gurdjieff – travelling round the world living off my wits,doing weird odd jobs,selling dodgy gear to locals and then getting out of town pronto and having lots of stories about falling in the shit and coming up smelling of roses.
    in a desperate attempt to “crystalize my ego`,i also tried to summon the superhuman energy to read “beelzebubs tales”, but i only managed to get halfway thru the second book. then,fearing that i didnt have a soul,and that i lacked the neccesary means to create one,and that i might indeed be a candidate for “dying like a dog”, i moved on to that other famous gurdjieffian device,drinking enomous amounts of alcohol and chain smoking whilst informing peope of their “chief features” and calling everyone “idiots”. i felt i was making progress.funnily enough,my girlfriend and my mates didnt seem to agree.well,i dug myself a lot of holes,but i didnt fill them back up – i mostly fell into them….
    ah..the memories…

    my copies of the books are long gone now.i was so proud of them at the time.
    now,i would say it is easily the worst written book i have ever read.
    osho said you could write the good parts of it on the back of a postcard – and that was taken to be a compliment!

    that grumpy old boozer ouspensky got it about right when he said:
    “in infinity,every thought will eventually become its own opposite”

  32. Anthony Thompson says:

    just a note one the side…
    I owe to Ouspensky my first experience of of awareness of not being aware, while reading as a teenager ” psychology of the possible evolution of man”. It was the first time in my life that i knew i did not know what the man was pointing to.
    I had no experience on what he was talking about.
    therefore the thirst was created.
    I agree, Gurdjieff books are simply unreadable, like trying to swallow a wooden sandwich. Besides, I think “meetings with remarkable men”, is full of bullshit and fantasy. Like a fairy tale to explain someone´s search
    any way, just some note on the side
    greetings
    Anthony
    and this one was written by me…

  33. Andreas Roth says:

    I think Gurdjieffs writings are not to be taken so serious. To me there is more to his practical works. Isha, my wife is practizing Gurdjeffs dances, and I love music inspired by Gurdjieff, e.g.: “Chants, Hymns and Dances”, a Gurdjieff / De Hartmann-Adoptions by Tsabropolus and Anja Lechner (a disciple of the great conductor Sergui Celibedache, who himself again was inspired by a living Zen Master). If you are interested in architecture, the live and art of Frank Lloyd Wright might be interesting to you: He was inspired by Gurdjeff. One of his most famous buildings is “Fallingwater”. Just search on the internet for “Fallingwater”, I guess you will like it.

  34. Chetna says:

    Anthony:Besides, I think “meetings with remarkable men”, is full of bullshit and fantasy.

    I wonder what would you say about
    “Autobiography of a Yogi” by Yogananda?

    How easy it is to call abullshit anything that one has not experienced.

    All criticism of enlightened people is nothing, we normally kill them to be done without idiots talking of “kingdom of God”. Well done, humanity! Let’s carry on in the same spirit.

  35. Anthony Thompson says:

    Chetna. I said ” think meetings with remarkable men is bullshit”. I did not say “I know” is bullshit. which means I do not know for sure anything.
    I never wanted to read yogananda´s book, because I was never impressed by him.
    The reason because I think gurdjieff´s book is full of fantasy has to do with information given to me by members of the sufi order Nashkbandi, interms that most of his methods came from them.
    but anyway
    regarding enlightenment. i do not even know if that exists.
    greetings anthony

  36. Andreas Roth says:

    I think it is fine to call bullshit bullshit (as you have explained to me Anthony, there is no objectivity anyway, so it’s more fun this way). Osho, Gurdjieff, Sri Aurobindo, Yogananda, just to name a few, they all have told a lot of bullshit and fabricated fairy tales (with degree of intelligence and esprit in the order of their arrival). The human psyche is complex and we have to face death consiously in an univers which most probably will remain a mystery forever. Enlightenment is a very overrated fiction, a byproduct of the brain. I met Osho and Krishnamurti, but also musicians, mathematician and physicist with incredible abilities. But all of them are just human beings. The brain is an extraordinary product of evolution, but no one is able to transcend the laws of nature. To me, there is more wisdom in the human rights, then in all the esoteric nonsens which is fabricated to exaggerate our fragile lifes.

  37. Chetna says:

    Andreas, thank for sharing a lot of your bullshit! lol

  38. frank says:

    it is interesting is that gurdjieff never seemed to meet any “remarkable women”!
    and the “remarkable men” never even had remarkable wives and girlfriends!
    in the book,a woman named vivitskia is mentioned(gurdjieef hates her at first sight),and even she was dressed like a man!
    can you imagine gurdjieff `s thoughts about women drivers,for example?

    that kind of phallocentric enlightenment was alright in the sweaty,mustachio macho smoke-filled chai shops and bars of kazakhstan etc. in the last couple of centuries,but it just seems to me like a bunch of blokes hanging around in smelly sheepskin jackets,seeing who could grow the longest moustache and telling each other tall stories while the women did all the work.

    i can see them smoking their afghani in hookahs and coming up with stuff like:”man has gone down the pan since the invention of the sit-down toilet”–yeah man,pass the pipe…..

    even reading gurdjieff`s books was a kind of extreme sport for testosterone filled young men keen to bang their brains around like intellectual bungee-jumpers to get some kind of odd sensations.

    ouch–i`m getting a headache just thinking about it….

  39. Andreas Roth says:

    My pleasure!

    “You have seen Christ, you have seen Buddha; you have seen kundalini rising in your spine, the serpent uncoiling; you have seen great light, you have seen a lotus flowering inside your head, you have seen the heart chakra opening, and all that crap — beautiful sounding words, but only fools are deceived by them. If fools disappear from the world, all esotericism will disappear. There will be great poetry, but no esotericism about it. There will be immense mystery, but no esotericism about it.”

    Osho

  40. frank says:

    autobiography of a yogi is a sort of yogic hindu harry potter.

    castles in the clouds.
    saints that dont eat or drink.
    folk with haloes shining all over the place
    lots of siddhis(yogic special effects)
    yogis being two places at the same time etc
    masters graduating to other planets for new teaching missions.
    yogis with heavy weights hanging off their penises.

    it`s all good clean fun,more or less.
    i dont think there was any sex or drugs was there?

  41. Chetna says:

    Or there is also love, respect and gratitude to those who have tried to help, Andreas!

  42. Anthony Thompson says:

    Well, finally we are all coming to terms… beautiful.
    Gurdjieff was a male chauvinist bragging about his experiences in the middle east, inventing things as the famous monastery, impressing young intellectuals like Ouspensky.
    Yogananda was a sissy inventing stories for gullible seekers.

    Well, my respected and admired Osho also had his share of invention.
    Many stories in Glimpses of a Golden Childhood are absolute fabrications. And many stories he tells of Buddhas´s life are his own inventions. also many times he supplied his own questions to his discourses.
    How Do I know that? I was close to Osho´s brother Vijay. he was my landlord. And he told me about this.

    However, That does not mean he was not one of the most impressive, loving and incredibly present human beings I have ever come across. Something emanated from this man.
    This without counting my admiration for his incredible abilities as a counsellor, and his brilliant Ideas. I do not know about enlightenment. But I do know about geniuses. and he was one of them.
    My gratitude, love and respect Chetna, goes to him.
    Greetings
    anthony

  43. Andreas Roth says:

    Dear Chetna,

    as you know Osho was kidding about all the religions. I have not heard Osho talk about Yogananda (Anthony may know), but I am quiet shure you might find some fency jokes if he did. There are so many fools who take these things serious, anything you can imagine, from astrology to walking over water… just add some sexual problems, drugs or a ideology and you have a good mixture to make people neurotic forever and in some cases even psychotic. I find lot’s of what is happening in the world to be a consequence of maddening ideas. I actually met quiet some who stranded in madhouses, Yogananda-fans as well as sannyasins and others, it’s not so funny then. For e.g. I knew a guy in Poona who read Yogananda, stoped eating and dringking. Certainly the ashram and all the therapists did not care, the guy returned to Germany with extrem anorexia and until today is not able to make a living without social health care. To me reality alone is wonderful enough without wonders.

  44. Chetna says:

    Andreas, love, thanks for sharing.

    Yes, I am sure there are many weird cases but I didn’t go mad (well, I hope) and many others didn’t. Actually his booked changed my life and I started understanding Osho more. Paradox, but true. They seem like opposites, but to me what they are trying to convey is beyond words and is the same. If I had not met Osho, I would have been with Yogananda for sure. That is my feeling.

    Anthony, beautiful that you feel that. I feel that too. Strange things started happening to me, the more I fall in love with Osho, the more I love and understand other Masters.

    Although, I am happy that I am not a disciple of Gurjieve even though I am a Russian. Too much even for me! Although probably the drinking competition I would have managed! Good practice in the past!

    And don’t get me wrong guys, I am no that serious on a path of yoga chanting mantras every morning. BUT I do not like when people who do not love Osho or others show disrespect to them just because they ‘don’t get’ what those guys say on a sannyas site.

    Osho spoke till his last breath in such body conditions that only inhuman would not appreciate the effort he made for HIS people.

    HIS people will ALWAYS be grateful for that!

    I bow down to all enlightened ones!

  45. Heraclitus says:

    I know nothing about geniuses. But I know a little about enlightenment.
    I would not have liked to be Mendel in his monastery, I know his work on the genetics of plants, etc is of the very highest quality, but what a life he led, so lonely and tortuous.
    And poor old Einstein, living part of his life totally racked with all that guilt about having laid the theoretical basis for splitting the atom.
    And Copernicus, having to deny his greatest discovery just to stay alive. Not much fun being a genius.
    I figure being enlightened is a lot of fun, and that is certainly the impression I have from having had the priveledge from being around a few of them. And what is Mr Thompson. having a go at Gurdjieff for. He was really quite similar to Osho, and Osho always spoke highly of him.

  46. Anthony Thompson says:

    well, except in the discourses ” Light on the path” where Osho calls Gurdjieff a dictator and I would not have described what he says and argues as speaking ” highly of him”
    But do not worry. he spoke in favor and against every living and dead master.
    And that was his mastery, not leaving any stoned unturned, not leaving anything to hold on… no master to believe in…
    well, perhaps lao tzu and chwang tzu he never said anything against and some of the zen ones also.
    But the ones we could cling to he spoke against them all.
    Including Himself
    ” i am a great con, a show man. see the way i am dressed?
    would you take me seriously if you saw me in the street?”
    The last testament volume 3
    greetings
    Anthony

  47. Heraclitus says:

    Anthony,
    thanks.
    Yes you found one quote against him, but there were many times Osho spoke highly of him…. I agree with the rest of your comment.
    It doesn’t really matter what Osho said about this or that, what really matters is what a person thinks and feels for themselves. I happen to see Gurdijieff and Osho as authentic Masters, as I do Socrates and Jesus. That is enough for me.
    By the way you seem to know Osho’s work very well, etc. Were you once a sannyasin, and how do you see yourself now. Anthony seems such an English name.

  48. Andreas Roth says:

    Before I became a sannyasin in the 70th, I have seen a collection of Osho pics, where he was wearing a different fency hat in each photograph. Now, being able to play roles implies an understanding of not being identified with one role alone. Osho played roles most of the time. But as a beard does not make you enlightened, being a master actor does not uprais you above human frailities or above reality. Osho was well identified with being master of masters, and his selfimage was supported by the sheer adoration of his disciples. Finally he was not able any more to distinguish between his inner world and the outer world and lost perspective. Same happend to many of his disciples. That’s one of the many reasons why I am against surrender, devotion, against all that adoration. It creates a false reality on both the sides.

    To Heraclitus I like to say, that it is one of the many things Osho propagated, that enlightenment was such a great thing and all the others (unenlightened ones) were just poor guys. You use the name Heraclites. Heraclites for example was known as the weeping philosopher and for his melancholia. If you look for it, you easily find flaws in any mans live. Osho created such a heroic picture about himself. But what do we really know about him? I often had the feeling in the late years that he was worn out. The scene behinde the stage differs from what we see on stage.

    The topic of this tread was on copyrights. I do not believe in dictatorial leadeship, be it “enlightened”. I know that Osho was against democratic stuctures with the argument that you can not vote on enlightenment. He also attacked the Dalai Lama for introducing democracy in Buddhism. But nowhere in the world undemocratic structures were of any good. I agree with Pari, one of the founders of this website, that if the sannyas movement does not develop a democratic basis, it will continue to flounder.

  49. frank says:

    i take refuge in the jackboots of the enlightened dictator
    i take refuge the whims of his sidekicks and cronies
    i take refuge in lies which are specially designed to make me see the truth

    any takers for the “psych-ops of the buddhas”?

  50. Anthony Thompson says:

    Heraclitus. I know osho´s work very well because it has been my subject of study for 23 years. i was with him 88-89. I have been to pune 10 times after that. I have interviewed tons of former and current disciples including the original inner circle and other people who were very close to osho, like Paul lowe (teertha) sw. Yoga chinmaya, osho´s first secretary and cousin kranti, michael barnett, etc, etc,
    my family is of British origins. they came at the turn of the 20th century.
    I was never a sannyasin… I never had the guts.and i have never been the disciple type.
    greetings
    anthony

  51. Chetna says:

    Anthony, having spoken to many, have most of them remained the sannyasins?Or lets say have not left Osho?

    I would like to know some summary conclusion, if there is one.

    Thanks and love
    c

  52. Anthony Thompson says:

    well. it varies from person to person. who specifically are you interested to know?
    anthony

  53. frank says:

    come on anthony,lets hear it.
    surely you must have a good pile of dirty washing there.
    hang it all out,we want to have a good look!

  54. Chetna says:

    lets start with famous figures…

    I wuld just like to know how many out of those people stayed on the same path. Like 30 out 70?

  55. frank says:

    only the chosen few are still goose-stepping in line along the autobahn to nirvana…..

    many more prodigal sons and daughters are still on the highway to hell…..

  56. Anthony Thompson says:

    ha, ha. famous ones. from the top of my head….
    Teertha, paul lowe, never mentions his time with osho.never. If you push him a bit, he´ll say osho was never awake and speak about the pifalls of the disciple -masterv relationship.
    Paul declares himself awake, he thinks enlightenment is eastern propaganda. currently he is in his house in byron bay. But untill last year he was travelling the world conducfting workshops.

    Somendra ( michael barnett) declares himself enlightened, has a mystic school called The wild goose company. he recognizes Osho as his former master and speaks fondly of him.Athou he is very critical to some of the ways around Osho organization in the old times, he recongnizes his learning there. actually he lives in a town near freiburg and travels europe conducting his famous energy workshops.

    Amitabh and rajen, Poonam, are no longer sannyasins but aknowledge their learning under Osho. Still therapists.
    Sidha is back to his pribate practice as a psychiatrist. Not mentions osho much… bad publicity.
    Prasad, laxmi are dead. sheela is in swuitzerland running a nursing home.
    Shanti bhadra just got a book out saying Osho brainwashed her…
    what else…
    deeksha is currently living in the US thinking osho was a con man…
    many others are into kalindi`s work in san diego…
    Divya ( the primal therapist) lived some years in brazil as a mini-guru. thought Osho was enlightened but lost it.
    Now she lives in spain.

    Aneeta ( from sufi dancing) and her husband, I forgot his sannyas name ( peter makenna), are still singing and conducting worshops. recongnize their learning under osho, but are not involved in the movemente. they took care of clint eastwood ranch some years back .
    I do not know… this is weird. If you ask me about someone specifically… i can tell you what I know and if i interviewd him/her.
    greetings
    anthony

  57. frank says:

    thanks tony,
    but seriously,would you buy a used car from any of these guys?

  58. Anthony thompson says:

    sorry for the incredible amount of mystakes. I am not writing from my computer and I do not have english spell check
    greetings
    anthony

  59. Andreas Roth says:

    I think Tony got it quiet right, I have met all the ones he is talking about, except Divya and I “knew” them up to different degrees. Peter Makena I knew even before I became a Sannyasin (as far as I know he and Aneeta left as the US-story started, he was troubled with the ashram politics even before Osho left to the US). There are many more who left, which are not so well know, but nevertheless intelligent and creative people. Somendra to me is an absolute showman. I liked Teertha because of his psychological insight. But I think Teertha’s (and some others) eradiating Osho from their history is cowardly, dishonest, inadequate for somebody who led encounter groups for such a long time and it will not work in the long run. They should come out with their stories and tell what really happend behind the scenes. This might help not only themselfes but others too.

    The book of Shanti Bhadra (Jane Stork) is: “Breaking the Spell: My Life as a Rajneeshee and the Long Journey Back to Freedom”. ISBN 9781405039055 A$34.99, Imprint: Macmillan Australia

    I would not buy a used car of any sannyasin :-) I have had fun with sannyasins in various projects, leared a lot of things, and as I was a musician and have had a good time with some musicians, especially with Prem Joshua. But if it came to business, I had my worst experiences with sannyasins, which was quit frustating I have to say. Completely off. Since about 15 years I do not make any business with sannyasins any more, except in a very reserved way.

  60. Anthony thompson says:

    I desagree on your opinion of Michael Barnett (somendra). Of the people who left that I have interviewed, he was the one more open, honest and in my understanding, more integrated as fas as his sannyasin story is concerned. he did not leave in sweet circumstances, he was expelled from the movement and lost everything he had, but there is no bitterness or victimization whatsoever. he is just profoundly thankk ful to Osho, even for that.
    he is a beautiful and powerful man too, I have been to his workshuops and they are simply amazing….
    and he told me tons of interesesting juicy stories from ” behind the scenes”.
    greetings
    Anthony

  61. Kranti says:

    It is amazing to see how people struggle to come to terms with the success of one group OIF which has managed to beautifully safegaurd Osho’s discourses and books and helped to spread OSHO’s teaching to every corner of the world. Any individual really interested in Osho and Mediaitions will only be happy that Osho’s works are made available in a effective manner. And you cant do that in today’s world without having control over copyrights and trademarks..What is wrong in having trade marks. We all see how the teachings of old days/old masters had been twisted and damaged and interpreted beyond recognition. There is no point in stupidly arguing that there should not be any copy rights. Osho himself would have approved it happily seeing the need. If we have to go by what he said Osho didnt want any organizations also. Then why these people who talk against OIF create their own organizations? I see so much frustration and jealousy because they are not able to make money. Otherwise OIF having copyrights is not an issue. If these people are genuine they should go back to Pune and try to work together with Pune commune..They are still hanging on to past . Let us not encourage people talking against Pune commune and OIF. It need not be OIF..It could have been any group. It doesnt matter. Feel good that there is one organization which is doing great service to osho’s work.

  62. frank says:

    tony,
    have you heard the one about the famous danish footballer lars elstrup,who took michael as his master and joined the wild geese.then a year later he was arrested in a busy shopping street in copenhagen,with a rope wrapped round himself and waving his penis at passers-by?
    sounds like they had some kind of crazy wisdom thing going on down there.

    i also heard michael barnett was a lifelong arsenal fc fan.
    was it his energy work that won them all those cups?

    i guess that enlightenment,like football ,is “a funny old game”

    but to be fair,at the end of the day,michael is a legend,the fans love him,he wasnt a bottler,didn`t go down easily and has always given 110% for the cause…..

  63. frank says:

    and when he was sent off,he never argued with the ref…
    he just got on with it….

    respect!

  64. Anthony thompson says:

    ha, ha. I love you humour frank

    To be fair with Chetna questions I have decided to take a look at a field study I did some years before.
    the results of our investigation conducted at the Osho commune international, during 1988-1989, selecting 350 individuals ( described as sannyasins) of both sexes, representing a broad range of nationalities from Europe, Asia, north and South America, and Australia showed the following result.
    Using a multidimensional psychological model of self actualization, we interviewed the subjects and were allowed to observe their interpersonal behavior, without them knowing what we were researching.
    We compared our study with others conducted with the same model with Yoga students, Practicing Catholics, Socialists members, Human potential group participants, Alternative Community members, Findhorn participants, Esalen participants. Alternative medicine participants, Est graduates, Muktananda´s, Mataji´s, Maharaji´s and Sai Baba´s disciples.

    Sannyasins ranked very high, That is above average compared with the other movements previously described in:

    Body awareness: that is a deep and profound awareness of the physical sensations and the ability to relate them to psychological contents. Based on the models developed by: Stevens, Kepner, Kelleman, feldenkreis, Goldstein

    Personality Integration. This refers to the congruence between thought, feeling and action: Based on Kepner´s integration Model.

    Interpersonal abilities: the ability to relate emotionally in a satisfactory way with others, Express ones own needs clearly and being sensitive to the needs of others. Bases on Rogers Gendlin and Schutz

    Self awareness: The ability to recognize the patterns of behavior and identify ones own feelings. Based on Stevens, Walsh, Selver, Gunther.

    Self efficacy. The ability to recognize ones own need and mobilize the inner resources to satisfy them in an efficient ( non-neurotic) way. Based on Yusson, Perls, Piaget and Goodman

    Emotional expression. The ability to recognize ones own feelings and express them in a constructive way. Based on Reich, Lowen, Kelley, Boadella

    Conceptual models and Ideological structuring. The ability to function with flexible, changeable and questionable conceptual models about the functioning of the world. Berger, Frankl, Husserl, Cox.

    All this was published in 1990 in the XII issue of the ( Revista de Investiagación spiritual y psicológica) Psychological Spiritual research Magazine.

    I would like to add something personal to this debate. Something that has to do with my own understanding of Osho… even beyond facts and research.
    I have studied this man and his work for over 23 years… and still he remains a mystery to me. I have read over 250 of his books and listened to countless tapes, and still I am Amazed.
    I am a scholar and i have met brilliant minds in my life, but nothing, I mean nothing, compared to this man. I know he read a lot. But I have met a lot of people who read a lot and still Osho stands as a giant in front of my eyes.
    As I have said before I am a psychotherapist and i have worked as such for many years and still my insights and understandings get repeated again and again. Reading the darshan diaries, the conversations between osho and friends and disciples, I have seen the most impressive counselor I have come across in my life. Each answer is a jewel, the ability to see people and to respond to their uniqueness is beyond knowledge and experience.
    I had the pleasure to sit at his feet and the energy that emanated from this man is something that I have never seen in anyone, I mean not in anyone. I was with Krishnamurti, Papaji, nisgardatta maharaj and many, many others, and Osho stands alone in a place that is beyond projection, transference and stuff like that. he channeled an energy that was undescribable. Even detractors as Calder and Roth can not deny this.
    What he was, what he said he was, and my extensive experience in human behavior, psychology and scientific research falls short.
    Beyond facts and stories there was this man as unearthly as anyone I have met, and at the same time so absolutely human. So present and so absent at the same time.
    I think the main reason for all my years of research was to try to find out and understand what he was… But I just can not find an answer.

  65. Anthony thompson says:

    I remember Andreas laughing at my study when i spoke about in the other forum

  66. frank says:

    hi tony,
    i also had the same feeling the first time i sat in front of osho.
    i thought; “who the f**k is this guy?”

    like you,i am still interested in the question.

    when i look in the mirror,i also ask “who the f**k is this guy”
    somehow the two curiosities are linked.

    i also get the same thing when i go to watch arsenal.usually some guy asks me:”who the f**k are you looking at?”

  67. frank says:

    i am not so sure about your psychlogical survey.

    seems you are turning “self-actualization” into a competitive team sport or something.

    i would say plenty of sannyasins,sheela`s gang and some of those guys you mentioned down at the used car lot for example,could very well be struggling in the lower leagues,in a relegation battle with the catholics and the saibabas and matajis.

  68. Chetna says:

    Anthony, brilliant-fascinating work! Can I be greedy and ask few more Q?

    1. I am sure many people you have interviewed had similar experience of Osho presence at least that time. Why do you think they are so “detached” from Osho now? Or can say some deny, some are gurus some are whatever…

    2. Of those you have interviewed and talked to, how many actually meditated regularly (majority or minority)?

    3. What can you say about interviews with Laxmi? What did she use to say? What was the last interview about.

    Thanks so much
    C.

    Frank, sometimes I love you, sometimes I want to slap you!

  69. frank says:

    thanks chetna.
    that is a real compliment.

    tony,
    actually,the story about lars elstrup is absolutely true.
    i`m not sure where that would fit him in your scheme measuring:
    “the ability to recognise ones own feelings and express them in a constructive way” -reich,lowen,boadella,kelly et al

  70. Anthony thompson says:

    well frank, psychotic episodes do not qualify around normal neurotics surveys
    now chetna
    1:- it changes from person to person.
    some consider they were fooled by his charisma, some think he lost it on the way, some think one thing does not imply the other, meaning he could have all this energy and being a crook anyway; some think what they saw in osho was a proyection of their own inner beauty… some think they graduated from him, etc.

    2.-minority

    3.-well, laxmi was kind of off the circuit when I talk to her. She was speaking of herself in third person: always very devoted to Osho, but resentful of the people who were now close to him… but she excussed Osho for that.
    she wrote a book which I think xcan be find in the net. there you can see more of her.
    regarding sheela and the lot I did not intervew them, so do not know.
    greetings
    anthony

  71. Andreas Roth says:

    This thread has gone quiet some way from copyrights to people. As I will be on the road for some time, I will leave with a final remark.

    What I have said about Somendra (Michael Barnett) was from the past. Last time I saw him in London, somewhere around 1981 and I did not like his energy shows adopted by Osho somehow (or did Osho adopt from him?). In the 90th I heard a tape of Michael Barnett, but could not relate to most of it, too selfcentered to me. But I have looked at his website now and I liked his fine face and found his message to be zen like with some new age touch to it.

    I have never asked myself, who is this guy (Osho). This question implies a feel of adoration and wonder, which I do not have for any person. I have a different understanding of love. Any leader, teacher, guru, master, – call it as you will, is an excuse. For anything: the very best and the worst. But if you look at it from some distance, from your own responsibility, every other person in the long run becomes human (even Hitler). Osho, as many before him, cultivated an image of superhumanness around him, not really being a person but the man without ego, an enlightened one. And he emphasized this in many ways. For example, I attended some of the energy darshans of Osho, but I always found it quiet an arranged and hysterical event. Much of what happend there was kind of a new age party style psycho drug happening arranged by a bunch of hippies around a man who allowed them, what everybody else would not allow. Certainly there was unusual energy as in any such situation and the scene produced crazy photographs for public relations (I am not so shure if those who attended these happenings are very fond of their images if they look at these pictures today). Have you seen pictures of women adoring Hitler in the masses while speaking or attending meetings? Have you seen fans worshiping stars? Same energy. There is nothing esoterical about it. These “darshans” were arranged and prepared minutely, strict rules for behaviour was given before you entered. Given the time and circumstances, they were fun but also quiet a show. If you look behind the scenes you come to a more prosaic understanding. I have always admired Oshos art of speech. But all of this is not superhuman. For example, his jokes were prepared for him, he read a lot and of any kind, the books were brought to him by sannyasins, he adopted anything he found useful and added his own perspective. And he definitively was an amusing and exceptionally gifted orator and entertainer. He repeated his shows sometimes if they were successful (like the fuck lecture). He was brought up in a country where there is every kind of spiritual hype you can think of. As a literate man with a rebellious heart he just toped them. And that was his main goal, to top them all. Even Buddha. He took from them all and painted his own picture. A picture where he was master of masters. In one way he succeeded. In another way he was a complete desaster as he used people and finally crossed a boarder which destroyed his whole work. His narcistic selfimage and his way not to respect the dignity of man destroyed the whole thing and the lives of mayn. That is also why he will remain a footer in history forever. The practical implementation of his words revealed a truth. It manifested an abysmal contrast to his words. There is a devastating side of Osho which many have felt but do not like to see. Osho often displayed the effects thereof as a device. But in fact this is an old and very flimsy argument. A very old fabrication of religions. Christianity created god and the devil, Osho exaggerate and promoted himself (being both).

    I know there are many who see themselfs as lovers. They feel understood and loved and it opens their heart. My experience is, if you are able to keep that alive in reality, in your day to day life, it can not remain rosy forever. If you live it, it will change. Real beauty always contains some of it’s opposite, otherwise it’s kitsch. Only then it has solid ground and foundation in life.

    I like E-Mail as it is a spontanious way of expression, something between speech and writing. Yet the presence of the other is missing (which in some smelly cases may be an advantage). Also forums and email are not really a haven of orthography and grammatical correctness, so please forgive my many misspellings.

    Anyway, it was fun with you. Have a good time.

  72. Anthony thompson says:

    I respect you share your understanding this time. because I can see that: your understanding. for which I have to admit I disagree, but nevertheless, my fight has been with your understanding posted as a collection of plain facts,not with your disagreeing with me.
    Personally, I have met a lot of people who consider themselves, and are considered by others like leaders of some kind. My area of specialization is the social construction of meaning around psychology and spirituality.
    However, Osho stands alone, with admiration, I have to say. Never saw anything like him. To assign his uniqueness to well staged shows, a lot of reading and preparation, collecting information from others, etc, I think it is just missing the point. I have met literally hundred of people who did the same thing… and the effect was not even near to this being. You use the word super human, or esoteric. I do not know what that is. because it is not my way of conceptualizing things. I am a scholar, so I have to say. I simply do not not…. but I am in awe.
    greetings
    anthony

  73. Kranti says:

    I dont know who is this Andreas Roth . Osho would have just waved him off instead of strenthening his unawareness further. This guy is so excited that everyone is responding to his opinions. The more you respond the more he is going to express negatively about Osho as though he knows Osho better than Osho himself. He is not very different from all the people who are calling themselves as Osho by prefixing Osho’s name wit their name. he is just doing the opposite, trying to convince himself in the opposite direction. and everyone responsding to him is only pushing him beyond the point of no return..

  74. one says:

    so why don’t you just join the vatican or the taliban kranti???

  75. Alok john says:

    Anthony’s field study, self actualisation etc….

    But the study was taken in the Commune, where people were not under any pressure, living in Osho’s light, almost on holiday. If you studied the same people in their home countries I think they would not do so well.

    I have always thought most people attracted to Osho had profound problems, sannyas being a remedy of last resort. As someone once said to me “You have got to be pretty desperate to get up at dawn to do dynamic.”

    Most of the sannyasins I know in the UK, me included, are not successful or “integrated” enough to own property, something that most of the population eventually manage here. Seems to me many sannyasins have personality problems, difficulty loving, poor childhoods, probably past life karma as well.

    I have my theory, okay it is only a theory, that many first generation sannyasins committed war crimes in their past lives in the second world war; and this is the root of their inability to love. And then if you are unable to love, things don’t work out in your twenties, no career, no relationships. And then you are left at a loose end without anything. So sannyas is the remedy you need, the only thing strong and real enough for such severe problems.

    But I do agree with Anthony that Osho was incomparable beyond measure.

  76. Kranti says:

    Hi One
    Not sure about your response.. You have misunderstood what I said. All I said is you can’t go on criticizing Osho the way this guy does without any awareness. I am in love with Osho and unless one has some basic intelligence to understand the contribution Osho has made to Human Beings with all the deprogramming and freeing people and their energy towards more positive living you may not understand what I said. Without Osho millions of people would have ended in Drug rehabilitation centers and all the institutions which are exploiting human beings. He freed millions of people.. You don’t understand the value of it..and certainly these guys who on criticizing Osho. May be people like Andreas Roth has missed out a golden opportunity when Osho was in the body and that is hurting him so badly and he needs to do what he is doing

  77. Kranti says:

    Hi Alok john

    You have a different perspective.. what about all these sannyasins feeling the inadequacy and lack inside and they came to Osho understand the meaning of life and meditate and move higher in consciousness. Why it needs to be so negative ..Although serious problems in life do push people towards spirituality. In that sense most of the achievements in the world takes place because people feel adequate inside and they keep doing something to expand themselves. without that push inside no one will do anything..it is only a question of direction

  78. one says:

    kranti you have no idea of what really happend, neither was there deprogramming, nor millions of people, that’s all but p.r. and glorious myth. awareness has nothing to do with ideas. alok john’s last post for example evolved out of awareness and honesty.

  79. Kranti says:

    One

    How can we say that.?. I have seen so many poeple going through transformation in some way or other. What i have seen is very little. only a sample.

    Do you mean to say all the work ( for want of btter word ) Osho did and all the disciples and 1000s hours of discourses and the life Osho led is just PR..common One.

    Every single intelligent guy interested in human conciousness and pshychology was at the doorsteps of Osho. Do you meant to say all those guys were there due to PR

    Why so many govts 21 to be precise should be shaking because of the effect Osho had on people?

    I do understand alok has a certain view that poeple who have problems move into spirituality..But thats is the only precondition. Major part of people move into sprituality for postive reasons not as escape.

    I feel you appraoch this with a closed mind. A preconceived idea that there was nothing significant in Osho’s contribution without taking a honest look at the effect Osho had on people.

  80. Chetna says:

    “Major part of people move into sprituality for postive reasons not as escape.”

    I am glad you are saying that Kranti! But somehow Alok is also right! I remember for years I was puzzled why so many people came to Osho just to solve some problems?! My experience was different-I was very happy when I came to Osho. I didn’t feel he was my saviour, I didn’t need one. I came to Osho because I was happy to meet him, to fall in love with him and celebrate!

    Problems and misery come and go, but one thing certainly remains-love and dance with Osho!!!!

  81. Kranti says:

    Thanks Chetna for sharing those beautiful words .I never met Osho in person but i was attracted to him due to resons which can be described in words. I never had any serious problems in life except lack of fulfillment and may be few career related failures which everyone goes through. The way Osho pours himself through his discourses , the compassion even when he is hitting someone..To me he was one of the most beautiful , delicate human beings who walked on earth..

    One can understand Osho if they look at him like the way they look at a flower and as someone who is preaching.. Osho celebrated and shared like a Wild rose flower on the road..

  82. Kranti says:

    Just a correction to my post above

    One can understand Osho if they look at him like the way they look at a flower and NOT as someone who is preaching.. Osho celebrated and shared like a Wild rose flower on the road..

  83. Chetna says:

    Kranti I never met Him in his body, but I certainly did!

  84. Kranti says:

    Chetna

    I couldnt understand your post.

    You are saying you never met him but you did

    sorry if i am too dumb

  85. Chetna says:

    You are not, I just don’t know how to say it! -I have never been in his phisical presence but I really met Him and have been in His presence!

    love and meditation cannot be expressed through words!

  86. Kranti says:

    Thanks Chetna

    I posted a reply and went out to have a cup of tea.

    Something happened to me.. I felt i understand for the first time on what Osho says about surrender and how to listen to him . If i look at him as a Wild flower expressing itself , STILL sometimes , moving sometimes, moving to left and moving to right..with that mischievious smile ..

    Oh.. Sometimes i cry that i never met when he was in body..Other times it feels ok and i feel intimate to him.

    I just read a post by Veeresh about osho. On how everytime Veeresh moved closer to Osho he could see how human Osho was..

    Wish i just had one opportunity to hold his hand..

    I am in tears Chetna..

  87. Chetna says:

    Beloved Kranti I felt exactly like you! I felt I was really unfortunate to be born so late!

    I was wrong! Old sannyasins say that Osho is more available to them now than ever before! Only in 60s and 70s could they ever be close to Him and talk etc. Later he was confined to His room and only few individuals had access to Him (apart from discourses). I started to experience they are right!

    If you listen carefully to Osho discourses he said many times that his physical body is irrelevant! His disciples can contact him any time, BUT they must be meditative!

    So the question is not whether the Master is in the body or not, but whether we are meditative and pure to connect to Him!

    Mediation is the path to the Master! And love of course!

    Read “My way is the way of the white clouds” and other early discourses when he was talking not to so many people and the quality of people seemed to be much more meditative. Beautiful questions and answers were given. In serch of miraculous is another bomb!

    I would also suggest every lover of Osho to come to Arun’s camp (from Osho Tapoban), you will feel Osho very strongly (at least I hope so)!!!!

    If you are in London, please come to our centre!

    With love

    Chetna

  88. Chetna says:

    “ how everytime Veeresh moved closer to Osho he could see how human Osho was.”

    I never appreciated this comment! I feel that a disciple moving closer to the master will start seeing how much he could not see before-more love, compassion and wisdom! God, in the end of the day!

  89. Kranti says:

    Cheta

    Think i didnt do justice to Veeresh by not reproducing what he said correctly. Please see the link here if you have not read already.. Thanks for sharing. I

    http://www.sannyasnews.org/now/archives/203

  90. Kranti says:

    Just to add Chetna

    I live in India. I may not be able to visit London unless there is a requirement for me to travel from the company in which i work ..which is a very rare possibility

    But thank you for the kind invitation and sharing.

  91. Neeraj says:

    Brothers/Sisters,

    Anyone who has understood Osho, can never say much less claim such a weird thing of copyrighting his thoughts/discourses etc. It amounts to doing violence with the enlightened master.

    He was the last in the lineage of Gods. I request my friends of ‘Osho Friends Intl.’ to please abate this campaign of depriving the people and the world of this much needed treasure. We need those discourses more than anything else in the world.

    So far as i am concerned, i am prepared to pay so as to enable me to download that treasure again. Please let me know where i can pay and download it.

    Thanks and Regards.

  92. Hi,
    It was an interesting reading. I felt like jumping in, as I am a disciple since 1986. Been in Poona Commune till 1991. First thing I would like to mention is from my own experience, that the spiritual path is more like a love affair, and less like an analytics. Therefore the people with an analytical bent of the mind would be at a loss when it comes to experience these things through the heart. In all of those participated above, i think Chetana and Kranti are closest to the spiritual path that Osho is leading. I have great appreciation for Anthony thompson for all the time he spent with Osho and the people around him. But this is not his Caravan. I fell sorry for that. He could have joined the bandwagon. And as for Andreas Roth, he missed it. Better luck next time with another master. because even if he had embibed the essence of Osho’s teaching, he would have been busy lighting his own lamp, instead of looking under other people’s lamps.

  93. Kranti says:

    Sanjay.. It is never close enough..

    I realised onething.. If you are very passionate about reading and listening to Osho..there comes a point when you stop trying to understand his words..then you start lsitening to him the way you lsiten to a song. Whatever he says , contradicts become a play of words..It doesnt matter..Core message is simple.

    I am not saying i dont have a need to understand anything now..It is still there. I tried lsitening to various teachers at the same time to see whether i am able to see beyond the communication style and language and choice of words.. I am able to sense the core message every one is trying to convey..although it needs to hit more deeper..never know what life has in store..

    With Love
    Kranti

  94. Chetna says:

    “If you are very passionate about reading and listening to Osho..there comes a point when you stop trying to understand his words..then you start lsitening to him the way you lsiten to a song”

    That is also often my experience. It is the deepest meditation possible for me. I actually even would not remember clearly what he has said, but do not become unconscious and doze away at the same time.

    Sannyasins have this strange habit in the white robe just to lie down and loose it. Some of course remain alert, but I suspect it happens rarely. I even find it disrespectful to see that some treat the discourse as a waste of time/time to doze/time to rest and other…When the MASTER speaks it is really the time to switch on,not at the football match.

    Friends and I do the white robe everyday and we remain sitting and alert when listening to Osho-what a song of silence overtakes us then!

    I feel that those who are listening just to some “random tape” miss a lot.

    But all of the above is of course my personal experience and judgement.

  95. Kranti says:

    Ya..Osho always maintained that his speech is only a tool..It puts you in a different state..if i can call that as a ‘state’. It is a beautiful state

  96. shantam prem says:

    Kranti and Chetna,
    it touches the heart to feel your devotion and sincerity in your words, when you describe Osho or the experience of listening His talks.
    In htese momants it is a natural desire to see the faces of the people, one is reading or writing. Sanjay, i remember i know from 87-91 Poona Phase,
    Andreas Roth i try to remember from his website photo. If you both are on the facebook, i would be glad in your friends list. i am registered as “shantam astro”
    It is a joy to listen Osho and it is a greater joy to stand a bit for this Master, who has given much much more to the earth…… By sharing our thoughts and feelings, even they are critical, atleast we are not ignoring a very thought and heart provoking author/orator/Master of our time. Love you Osho!

  97. Kranti says:

    Sure Shantam

    I will create a facebook entry for me and inform you.

    With Love
    Kranti

  98. Kranti says:

    Just to add

    i never met Osho as a person…which will always be the biggest pain in my heart

    Everytime i see or interact with someone who have been with Osho i am become a little desparate to understand how they felt when they were near Osho

    Although i was introduced to Osho in the mid 80s when i was too young. I started listening to Osho more regularly in the 90s..

    We wouldnt have met except may be during my visit to Osho commune Pune every now and then.

  99. Chetna says:

    Ahhh, beloved Kranti I so can relate to your experience!

    But life is a mystery. Just today I was walking in London to work, public transport, noises etc. and all over sudden I felt incredible love from Osho and for Osho. It was so fulfilling that I really doubt that I have not met. It is impossible to feel so much love for someone from the books-it is sheer madness and all illogical but I feel we both have met him many times.

    I must admit that Arun sw changed my whole prospective on sannyas and Osho. Not only me but thousands of people feel Osho’s presence in his camps. And ok, I have not met him in physical body and possibly hallucinate (damn good constant hallucination), but I have seen old sannyasins admitting the same.

    So his love and energy is so alive and vibrant. Physical body is only one reality, but there are other 6. When we meditate they start developing them and then who cares about time, this life, that life…etc.

    Sannyas path is weird I have to admit, the more I move the more I know I don’t know. But in the mean time the more I relax and drink Bhagwan’s love on the street, in mediation, in talking to you now.

    I love you Osho!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    shantam prem I will try to find you in facebook. Thanks for sharing our love for Osho!

  100. Kranti says:

    Thanks you Chetna..

    You know what… I am not a very heart oriented person.
    I always use to be jealous of people who are Crazy , Creative and who can do starnge things.

    Osho always talks about this relationship between craziness and creativity and life.

    But it strikes me how much heart oreinted i am when it comes to Osho.

    So like you said there must be something more deeper.. Otherwise how is this Love for Osho whom i never met possible ?

    Of late i have been hurt by all that Oshodhara stuff and posting messages which were giving me pain..

    I was just thinking of sharing something more positive and more closer to my Love for Osho..I was searching how to start a new thread…and there you are with your loving post

    You made my day Chetna

    His Love and Blessings to you.

    Wilth Love
    Kranti

  101. Chetna says:

    The only reason I am writing here Kranti is to balance all that nonsense against Osho and find people like you who are sincere and seeking.

    That ocean of love is unbeatable. This is a sannyas site and I feel privileged to express my love to Osho via it! No need to express anything of course, but when I read some stuff against Osho and HIS people I am driven to stand out.

    There are so many new young sannyasins flowering out of the blue who love Osho more than any old grumpy sad sannyasin smoking dope can imagine.

    This mad love is nonsense for most, but for those who has experience it is the only thins in life that matters!

    Love for the Master in incomparable!

    His blessings are there for All!

  102. Kranti says:

    Chetna

    When you say ‘ There are so many new young sannyasins flowering out of the blue who love Osho more than any old grumpy sad sannyasin smoking dope can imagine ”

    I feel like… Wow!… this is what Osho wanted .. New human beings with awareness and love at the core of their life..

    I always think there is no need for everyone to become enlightened because there came a Master.. The master lifts the level of conciousness of number of people and make their life a little more beautiful..Their growth continues..may be with another master or on its own.

    We miss the point by just focussing on few individuals who either walked away from osho or think they are enlightenment. But the real work of Osho is the awareness and sensitivity He created in so many people.

    Recently one of my close friend has major health problems . When he emrged out of it he had a different view of Life and he feels he is able to understand & appreciate Osho more now.. I am sharing lot of things like awareness and silence with him ..more than ever.

    With Love
    Chetna

  103. Kranti says:

    How on earth I signed off my post as ‘chetna’ instead of Kranti.. I was too excited to share..Sorry Chetna

  104. Chetna says:

    not to worry at all, beautifully said hence don’t mind mind to sign up to it at all:)

  105. Chetna says:

    My sannyas means rejoicing in the world. But before you can rejoice,
    you should accumulate energy so much that you start overflowing
    with love, sensitivity, creativity, poetry, song, dance….

    Osho

  106. Kranti says:

    This is something which i have not been able to understand..

    This means you need to lead a certain type of life and do certain techniques to accumulate energy and then it becomes possible for you to be joyous..

    There is something at thelevel of energy where you need to be healthy enough.

    If someone can share more on this i will be greatful

  107. Kranti says:

    Chetna

    This is something which i have not been able to understand..

    This means you need to lead a certain type of life and do certain techniques to accumulate energy and then it becomes possible for you to be joyous..

    There is something at thelevel of energy where you need to be healthy enough.

    If someone can share more on this i will be greatful

  108. Chetna says:

    Kranti, I am probably not in the position to explain Osho’s words as will be filtering them through my mind and experience.

    I can just give an opinion and my experience:

    It seems that for any inner explosion a lot of energy is needed, hence all those Osho techniques that work on that-Dynamic, Kundalini etc. they help to awaken our energy. You must have experienced how much energy is hidden in us.

    Life style is then a must in my view to learn how not to waste energy and accumulate it, how to push it upwards.

    There are many early discourses when Osho led meditation camps where he advises to seekers on food, sleep and more importantly daily meditations. Maybe try to read them?

    Arun swami studied those early books in detail and tried to compile the summary which involves not only purification of the body, but also mind and emotions. People that are around also impact us and our energy, hence it is important who we hang around with.

    So I think one should judge his life and see what nourishes his live, love and makes him joyful. EVERYDAY meditation will make one to choose very easily and sincerely. Actually nothing needs to be done, by meditating daily bad habits drop by themselves, new friends arrive and new understanding comes.

    So there is no pressure, just little discipline to meditate every day, look after your body and go to long retreats when possible to recharge.

  109. Kranti says:

    Thank you Chetna

    I needed the sharing..

    I have alwys been very passionate about understanding what Osho says about MIND and Identity and all that stuff..Tried mediattions for short periods of time.. But i was too lazy to to continue doing anything which taxes me physically ..

    Keep sharing with me thses … I need to stop this post briefly

    I will come back after an hour

  110. Chetna says:

    Ahhhh, then you may be missing on the magic! Pl try to meditate everyday for 3 months and see!

  111. Kranti says:

    I am here… Yes i understand.. Of late i am too much into reading other teachers also.. Reading a lot on Neo Advaitha.. Listening to all the youtobe videos of Adyashathi and Mooji

    Although i very aware and have seen my understanding grow beautifully it is that energy which i am lacking.

    As i said i am too lazy physically… But i take your point… I need to do something about my energy levels and thats possible with only continuous mediatations

    Thank you Chetna

    I was posting a message in another article on Osho times.. I was kind of lost myself and used laguage which i normally dont use

    then i withdrew a bit and was sitting very silently.. It gave me a depth ..Silenece which happens naturally is so beautiful

  112. Chetna says:

    Cool, I am going to Mooji’s satsang next week.

    I think understanding only is not enough. Experience is all that matters, and the real understanding comes out only from experience.

    To me, to understand Osho means to go deeper into meditation. Osho gave an example of reading about swimming without the actual trial of it, what is the point?

    People choose different paths to meditation, be it music, sport, devotion etc. all is beautiful if done full heartedly.

    My fist 5 years I spent just reading Osho, another 5 years I swam between partying and meditating and in the last 3 years I have been meditating everyday. Maybe it needs to be gradual and who knows where the path will take me next, but one thing is certain for me, if I don’t meditate I go away from my self and Osho.

  113. Kranti says:

    Yes Chetna… If we dont meditate or grow in awareness we go away from Osho

    Mooji was here in India during January. me and one of my friend wanted to go to His satsang but we couldnt make it.

    I will try next year as he comes to India every January

  114. Kranti says:

    Chetna .. Did you go to Mooji’s satsang?

  115. Chetna says:

    hiya, it is actually on the 27th, next week. Planning to!

  116. Rob says:

    Why fight? Fighting will never acheive anything.
    That’s all.

    This message is sponsored by love*

    *love is a trademark of Awareness corporation