There seem to me two historical, beyond mind, spiritual silences that transcend all others.
The first was the one that prompted the whole tradition of Zen Buddhism. Here sitting with his community one day Buddha remained in silence as answer to a number of questions. He then picked up a flower and held it in the middle distance, and continued in this manner for some time. The sangha were mystified and restless, except for Mahākāśyapa who remained enormously still and who it is reported smiled the very slightest of smiles. When Buddha put the flower down he singled out Mahākāśyapa as the only one who had “received” the discourse on that day…. what later became known as “transmission” outside of the scriptures and any words. Oddly enough Mahākāśyapa was a good organiser and called the first Buddhist Council. It is said from the tradition of silent transmission the whole tradition of zen was born, of which Mahākāśyapa was the first teacher.
The second was the remarkable silence that Jesus held at his trial. This from a man who was extremely articulate, and fixed the priests and pundits of his time with questions when he was only 12 , and always had an answer to those who approached him. Pilate may have sensed or knew of his powers of speech and tried to get a response out of him, but all he would answer was in his silence. In that silence even Pilate recognised a quality of mystic awareness, and that of someone who should not hang on a cross for undefined crimes. So he washed his hands of him, and also of his own guilt in delivering the verdict the high priests wanted.
I have often felt if the Romans and the Jews had simply tolerated Jesus he would have slipped totally out of history. I also think that had he replied to Pilate, who found him interesting enough to give him space, his arguments and presence would have severed in two the platitudes of his accusers and he would have been released. So that silence ensured the Christian mystic tradition that would have had no journalistic wild fire to reach those who were interested, had he not choosen to die on a cross.
Maybe there are other tales of great silence in the mystical traditions, and it would be good to hear them. But these two stand out for me as ones that changed history.
Parmartha
It is perhaps an interesting coincidence that the conclussion to an article on spiritual silence ends beside an an advert for Osho Radio. Osho talked a lot about silence and balanced the obvious contradiction by saying the silence between his words was the real deal. In a concise description of what meditation meant to him Osho once said, ‘My meditation is simple. It does not require any complex practices. It is simple. It is singing. It is dancing. It is sitting silently.’ ‘Sitting silently’ is an expression that constantly appears in his discourses. The most famous instance encapsulating this being the Zen saying, ‘Sitting silently doing nothing, the spring comes and the grass grows by itself.’ Of course, it wouldn’t were it not for the rain.
In retrospect I was probably not alone in feeling quite smug about how silent I was, sitting in Buddha Hall the day Bhagwan gave his great discourse on Mahākāśyapa. On reflection maybe my silence did not run very deep back then. Today I can say I am genuinely a more silent man. I see it in little acts. Having enough silence in my life to listen to what others have to say. I always see it as a compliment when someone describes a person as a good listener. So, let’s just say I’m working on it.
Parmartha, our roving reporter, live from Jerusalem and Bodhgaya?, could you post the vids on youtube ?
JC in silence… could be a mythtake and he was suffering from torture & pts, and in complete shock and shutdown.
Drop the Pilate…
(*The phrase can be applied to any situation where someone feels he knows enough to manage by himself and can discard his mentor)
Difference between history and mythology. The flower sermon is a chinese chan story invented in the 11th C, Mythology is metaphysical valium, placebo, religious power and control… and archetypes.
“Osho once said, ‘My meditation is simple.”
…Nitrous Oxide/drugs, pulling teeth, babes, bad movies, fancy cars & clothes, mismanagement, dictatoring, megalomania, lying, being ill… aah go on, go on, go on …
http://youtu.be/yDVCWKx0hIM
Dominic is woman or man Sannyas ?
Look very angry at Osho ? These words about Osho is the way to teach Osho ? This page is show how sannyas is ??
You are sick mind and soul old sannyas type. Must be very sad life to attack Osho, very sorry you. Need to go mental check.
Strong with this one, the force is.
Osho rascal with all faults me still love and gratitudalini. Friends just like. You pain in ass, no saint be, but we still homies from the hood.
Perfection not necessary, for appreciation.
Also add more iron-y to your diet for uk travel.
Just add smiley or mirror look for own angry face.
Dos vedanya tovarisch.
Being with Osho is like being with yourself. You gotta love before you start looking otherwise it’s gonna be tough for you. If that is your opinion dominic, why do you still bother? I was into Crowley before Osho and he made Osho look like walk in the park. If you are looking for saints, you in the wrong congregation. Or maybe you are a saint? St Dominic, patron saint of SN. Bless me father for I have sinned … a lot.
Varty you cut the cheese with that one.
Obviously you only have holy pure thoughts of Oshoville. I see a recruitment oppurtunity with the politburo above.
You the saint… St.Varty with his own brand of pontifical incense… Eeeww
Come child, we’re here for your confession….get it off your chest…details please
Parmartha
>> I have often felt if the Romans and the Jews had simply tolerated Jesus he would have slipped totally out of history.
Assuming that Jesus wasn’t a Roman construct. There is absolutely no evidence that he existed and there is nothing in the Xtian philology that did not preexist in the Greek classics. Plato is rumoured to have been the first Xtian. doh
For me Mahakasyapa is primarily known for introducing laughter to spirituality. Silence is ok but I’d rather have a good laugh anyday …
http://www.theartofframing.net/uploadimages/436ed604ead97ef66c253ed46f6acf11.jpg
Vartan
For me it doesn’t matter, for the force of what I am trying to say, (I myself think there was an historical Jesus but it is of no moment).
Something like this happens and has happened when the secular and religious powers are lined up against the mystic. My main point is that the mystic can easily answer these idiots and give rational argument. However Jesus and many others simply reply with their silent transmission which is a power beyond any power of this world.
Real Laughter precedes real silence. There is no rivalry.
I’ll see both your power of silence and power of laughter, and raise you and all in with the power of lurve.
*Jesus Holdem poker game, start playing for free now!
I’d still rather watch a good movie. In the old days I used to get a lot out of books. These days I like that feeling of a movie taking over … with that “snap back to reality” when the take-over stops. Silence is ok but when it lasts too long I get bored. Sorry, but I am a westerner.
East,west…Restless mind is restless mind.
Why do you see that as a negative? One man’s restless is another man’s active. An empty mind may also be seen as the devil’s playground. Think about it. Or not.
Varty my post got a little circumcised. I would contrast my own restless mind with a calm creative one. Don’t really know what an empty mind is, except for the consciousness or life force that exists prior to mind.
These phrases, empty mind, no-mind get thrown around a lot, but a complete absence of thought seems a very rare flower. I like the idea of a devil’s playground though.
dominic says:
>> I like the idea of a devil’s playground though.
Me too.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Well worth listening to the difference between the earlier discourses and the Poona 2 discourses. The gaps, the silences between phrases are enormous in the later, and much, much less noticeable in the former, although might have been a health issue, and he was resting from exhaustion.
And high on nitrous oxide? It’s where I learned to sleep sitting up on a cold marble floor, desperately inhibiting my natural responses to lie down, sleep, cough, pee and praying for the end. Aah good times
So bloody uncomfortable . Yeah. Impossible to pay attention.
Osho was at the height of his oratory between 74 and 79. Like many others I found his discourses inspiring beyond measure during those years. Cant remember finding sitting on a cushion on a marble floor any real trouble then, though I would now!
I could have danced all day non stop, then all night, and I STILL wouldn’t have been able to sit still in them days and for years on.
\(^o\) (/o^)/
Yeah do love the early hits, the late ones were a snoozefest. And purely by coincidence of course, the cushions turned into portable sofas and armchairs. Tip: Get there early before ‘the germans put their towels on the sunbeds’.
Parmartha says:
>> Osho was at the height of his oratory between 74 and 79.
I know what you are saying but there was hardly any original material there. All he was doing was re-shuffling what we already had in out heads in a wonderful poetic mix. The original material I could type on one A4 page.
He always said he had no interest in being original.
Everything comes from something preceding.
Photographs could have been taken for a hundred years or more before they actually were.
Arpana says:
>> He always said he had no interest in being original.
Mmm… sounds like a cop out. Still love ‘im tho.
Sounds like you want to have the last word tho.
Two spiritual silences or two brands accepted by the masses?
After all, it is the mass following which decides what it mean noise and what it means success.
Parmartha, you have just read these things in books…..just in books books and more books!
Just 24 years before Osho was leading thousands of people in silence..it is all video recorded..Most probably you were not there, even those who were there, may be they have not forgotten but to transmit further….!
Shantam, you appear to have a fixation with the masses. How long has your interest in quantam physics been developing?
I was there Shantam and experienced Osho’s transmission.
I have not just read these stories about Jesus and Buddha, I have felt them in my bones.
You are fond of putting Osho into competition with others, a silly thing to do.
Osho actually commented at length on these two silences in his own way. I am just doing it in my own way, and that is what he would any of us who have reached maturity to do.
Osho has poured not less silence then the historical gentlemen, but it won’t become part of the mystical tradition.
One reason is people and time was different.
Our knowledge is our curse!
Don’t be worried Shantam. Swami Rajneesh will lead you into silence when you visit him.
We all Russian visit Rajneesh to Mexico. He make us dance, celebrate like Kirtan and silence come easy. Like shower rain. He say be total dance and then silence easy. Natural.
No need to learn silence, but total action, gift natural silence.
All Osho method he teach us is be total, Peak, and wait, watch, with No Mind, silence come down. Silence is Total act reward.
Work on land and get very very tired, and silence reward. Do any meditation total and silence reward. Dance total and silence reward. Silence natural when body fall in No Mind.
If you go meet Rajneesh everything become silent natural near him. Better you come mexico Lokesh before die. They say Better Later then Never ?
i speak with sam today.
he say he run round chase girl with total energy and get reward.
he make sex 3,4 time every day. energy very total
he come easy and get silence reward.
he get very tired then he mind gone
he come and go and body fall into no-mind
and silence reward.
everyone must be real sannyasin like him
not bla bla bisexual femidominic full of anger.
what is this?
Tweedledum & Tweedledee, out of compassion I shall ignore you. Naah…
From Russia with hate, you on the Via grrra?
Me quick cancel russian bride order and trip to Kaakaakstan.
Don’t know what make you stupid, but work very good.
I’ve been in Mexico many times and if I go there again I certainly would not go out of my way to say hi to Swami Rajneesh. I met him in LA and the only thing that left an impression on me was how weird he was. I’m sure you guys are all enjoying your trip with the man and good luck to you. I’m simply not interested in him. Everything you say, Tarika, sounds like ancient sannyaspeak circa 1978. Fine at the time but today it comes across as cornball mumbo jumbo.
Lokesh says:
>> Everything you say, Tarika, sounds like ancient sannyaspeak circa 1978. Fine at the time but today it comes across as cornball mumbo jumbo.
It was mumbo jumbo then too, or so my parents were saying.
Surely 1984…Ministry of Truth
Also Sannyas Wars Attack of the Clones.
BV, yes you are right, but Osho was a very good orator, so much so that the mumbo-jumbo he spoke sounded magic. If I listen to Swami Rajneesh talk he just does not have the panache to carrry it off. Everyone has to begin from somewhere, so I suppose SR is helping people on that level. Call me jaded if you like, in the sense of lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something. Spoiled even.
Lokesh says:
>> Call me jaded if you like, in the sense of lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something. Spoiled even.
Fully understandable. You sound OD-ed. I had a 10 year break so I am fully on and I reckon I have a good 5 years before I fade.
I just find the whole personal enlightenment game farsical, the great golden carrot. What kind of enlightenment is it when you reach nirvana and everyone else is left scuffling in the mud of human existence? Count me out. Either everyone is enlightened or nobody is. Currently right in the centre of the marketplace and loving every second. Spreading a little bit of peace, love, humour, harmony and dance music along the pathless path.
Lokesh says:
>> Either everyone is enlightened or nobody is.
Everyone is … some just don’t know it and they have to pay to be told.
I thought we were not to use the word enlightenment anymore .. the new word is consciousness and it is more expensive. I reckon for a full consciousness intensive at least £500.
And for Lokesh about leader :
Swami Rajneesh never say he any Leader, but only Osho disciple. He always say you are Master of yourself. Look your inner Light and Trust Your self. He always make us believe our spiritual self. He never say Trust him but Trust our Own Fire and Spirit.
I remember in Russia one woman come to bow touch his feet. He sad, angry and say No. And he bow and touch woman feet. Woman very shock, and Rajneesh say her every morning get up and bow to your own photo and say, Please my Buddha wake me.
Rajneesh warn us, if we bow to him, then he have bow to us 5 times, and laugh, and say so please do not make him bow 5 times, too much for old man.
He never allow anyone touch his feet, as he say it is not good to make human fall, but to rise himself. You do not know anything about Rajneesh. We all Russian know.
But that is still acting as an adviser, a teacher, a sort of “leader”, isn’t it?
I mean, what’s he doing sitting around with you lot all hanging on his every word – so much so that you quote him here?
Ok, he’s ‘pointing to Osho’? Fair enough, but I sincerely hope you don’t think Osho is some sort of ‘god’? Because that would be a huge mistake.
“Look your inner Light and Trust Your self….Trust our Own Fire and Spirit.”
Sounds good to me Tarika. Whatever works and makes you happy. Osho’s meditations and celebrations are great.
Now I’ve confused you haven’t I?
How old are you?
~ the androgynous mentalist
Cool, Tarika. Trust you find whatever it is you are looking for with Swami Rajneesh. Good luck.
Considering Russia’s recent history I can understand your enthusiasm for the swami. What you don’t seem to get is that most regulars on SN just don’t take the man seriously. Whatever gets you through the night.
Lokesh
I agree and understand your perspective, it was my own for decades, and still feel loyalty to these goals and theories. Existence is not rational. All of the enlightened beings ( I can no longer call them masters since they mastered nothing, they did nothing) skirt around this issue. Bhagwan skirted this issue, and to me this is huge, the man who led us to believe in anarchy played the company game. Myself I am free of the body-mind issue and still see the imbalance of 7 billion Buddhas to end this illusion. So there is some information from existence that is still not available. And that is huge, Existence keeping us in the dark, while we are already standing in the dark trying to get out of the dark at its behest.
None of the teachers will speak on this issue, that I am allow to speak how God is scewing us surprises me. ( remember I am predestined Taoist)
Reincarnation is another issue, none of them are willing to say “NO IT DOES NOT EXIST”, instead they all just play the company game, God forbid we alienate the Hindus (scum). Yes I have massive issues with Hinduism. Christians and Muslims are not worth mentioning. Jews are irrelevant. If you know who jumps in I will have to explain the issue to him or his them.
Back to the issue. What you and I are seeing is basically mathematics, both in numbers and time,
Another rant for me is the concept of preparation that has been floated about, saying that ones nervous system has to be adequate, or one needs to be centered enough , or done enough meditation, this is all Bullpucky. Existence (GOD) uses despair, great physical and emotional torture to make one enlightened. It does not happen in some meditative idealistic world. It is a pyramid process with only a few a century being transformed, just enough to keep the process going, just enough so that the philosophy is kept alive, so that those very few that are going through transformation have some background to keep them from going bonkers. Look at the numbers, with the availability of Bhagwan worldwide, with lets say 700,000 disciples now, there are only 8 that I heard of that have made the jump. And this is after 42 years. A side note, to me it is sad that our friend counts himself as the first, and I do not count him at all in these 8.
Another perspective I wish to share is the idea that wee , humans are not center focus of this illusion as well as, as well as not being center focus in the reality beyond this. Though I hypothesize all realities are illusion.
So I know my lover is an illusion and I love her as totally as possible, and you are illusion, so why am I writing a theory that God puts into my head, so that God can listen to it through your ears that are not real, and your understanding of everything is all stuff that God already knows.
As Bhagwan said ” God is playing a game of hide and seek with itself.” I added ” And making it as difficult as possible.”
This is not answer, But God has not made the information available.
Yes we are screwed !
Right on, Shivamurti. As I see it wee inhabit our earth suits so that the supreme intelligence can experience the world of limitations. Reincarnation? Something is incarnating but we are not. We are one offs. Our personalities are created in this world through our earth suits. Old age, disease and death will ndestroy it. Life’s breath will vacate the earth suit and seek another incarnation. Yes, residual vibes, memories etc will have an existence again and again but who are we to lay claim to them? I have recollections of things which do not belong to this incarnation and I lay no claim to them. They are not ‘my’ past lives. They are simply past lives. Meanwhile Brahma dreams the dream of existence and we exist only so loing as a fluttering of his eyelash. What else to do but celebrate our impermanent existence, before Lord Shiva does his eternal dance of destruction and regeneration? Great to be a part of it, if only for a moment.
I hear you
Anyway..Jesus Christ walks into a motel, hands the Innkeeper 3 nails and says…..’Can you put me up for the night?’
Not sure about the historical veracity of Junior and his silence. He was probably well hung though.
All these ‘spiritual superheroes’ are really just stories to me to illustrate a point. ‘Spooks, spooks and more spooks’ to paraphrase Shantam.
I mean if you talk to superdaddy, it’s called prayer, if he talks back to you, you’re a psycho, or worse, the founder of one of the two most violent religions on the planet…Congrats!
Inner silence…would be nice. Unfortunately human mind 1.0 has no off radio button, perhaps in the next OS.
C’mon guys summer haiku competition. That’s 5 7 5 syllable lines. Winner wins free Ibiza festival pass. Go Basho one off!
Sitting silently
Doing nothing, a spring comes
And I wipe it off
Anyway, an Indian man dies and arrives at the Pearly Gates. “Yes, how can I help?” asks St Peter. “I’m Osho and here to meet Jesus,” says the Indian man. St Peter looks over his shoulder and shouts, “Jesus, your cab is here!”
So Jesus gets in the cab and Osho says,
“Jesus I always felt you needed more grounding.”
“Ok sort me out”, says Jesus.
So Osho takes him to a sex shop to get him started.
“Have you got a blowup doll, for my mate Jesus?”, he asks the assistant.
“Christian or muslim”, says the assistant.
“What’s the difference?”, says Osho.
“Well the christian ones you have to blow up yourself, and the other, blow themselves up.”
It took me a while to discover that BDSM has surprisingly little to do with Buddhism.
They are good tales and I enjoy reading them again and again. But by talking too much about things happened 2 K + years ago we have missed many people and we continue to miss them.
I am just glad that I am connected with a master like Osho. I don’t know if I ever get to understand his silence but I enjoy his words. That itself is enough and fulfilling for me.
Your “Master” Osho talked a great deal about both Jesus and Mahākāśyapa. He himself spent much time speaking on Mahākāśyapa’s silence and spoke several books on Jesus.
I just wanted to tell a couple of things in my words and as I myself experience those things, many more should do the same, quoting others – that’s the way of academics.
Silence is a much more complex issue than in the way it has been dealt with within sannyas. There is the silence of zen, of no-mind, where there can be mind but a choice of no-mind has been made. And then there is the silence of the ones who know but choose to be silent. This last one is close to the mafia’s omerta, or as it regards the ancient mysteries, where you will never really know because no-one ever spoke.
A little known fact that in the land of the Logos, silence reigned supreme. A book has already covered some of the ground but I feel there is much more to be uncovered om many levels.
http://press.princeton.edu/titles/6875.html
In the current position of my research I’d say that what precedes the silence is just as important as the silence itself (and we haven’t even began to touch on what follows the silence).
Bodhi
Osho and Bodhidharma both lied to there disciples about Arhats. Anything that happens within this Existence and all of the Existences is Existence, there is nothing that is our will. The Illusion is that we have control and input, the duality is that this Illusion is real and it is not. If a human speaks or does not speak it is the will of Existence. To say an Arhat decides is saying they have some control. To say they decide is to say their Mind is in control. Ones Mind controls one in the act of fooling one. Nothing more. This is how one is controlled by the Illusion, We have no freedom in the sense of control, we only have freedom in the sense of not controlling.
I am the one who decides how many sugars go in my tea.
Hello Bodhi
Existenced has you completely hynotized
SM, I don’t know how you sneaked into my dream, attempting to shade it into a nightmare.
‘ Anything that happens within this Existence and all of the Existences is Existence, there is nothing that is our will.’
Surely a bit of free will might be part of that.
Existence being so vast might contain the exercise of some free will.
(I’m not arguing for or against. Worrying about free will and determinism stopped for me years ago.
Hello Arpana
Why?
Every thought one has heard inside, one did nothing to generate it, at most one followed along in this dream, attached to it, addicted to it. We are completely deluded buy our mind and body.
When Bhagwan said he did nothing, and had done for 32 years, when he aimed us to do nothing,it was to free us from the forced attachment of the body-mind. Chop wood, carry water, simple interaction with our body, when I stir my tea I see that it not me stirring my tea,so if I am not doing there and then, how i say I am doing anywhere else ? This Emptyness that I exist within, has nothing but the warm soft darkness. We are here to witness and to love, both as an inactive state. All else,everything else is done by Existence, we are enveloped in it. When one listens to any thought as their own the illusion has them fooled
Surely existence is large enough to allow us make choices about somethings, a few things. Isn’t that the learning process.
Are you saying we don’t learn.
Hello Arpana
We do not do anything, except witness. Our existence here is that of a puppet , the state we are in is not believable until one is in the position to see it. I suspected it for decades, but it was not until I stood free of this world that I could see it.
shivamurti says:
>> We do not do anything, except witness
In fact we do. Through witnessing we see patterns. (We even see patterns where there none to be seen.) “Pattern Recognition” is the nature of our being. And through recognition we are given the aptitude for change in conformity with will, of which you appear to have very little of …
Perhaps the Blessed Shivamurti is speaking from a vantage point further on down the line…
But I still don’t see what he’s saying is of much practical value, to me anyway.
After all, why believe it? Mere belief is just for fools.
come on SD,
get your muzzle off and shake off that leash…
sounds like another wannabe satscam sit-down artist for dinner!
seehimoff!!
Hello Bodhi
The seeing of patterns is just more mind. It is not seeing ,just more thought
Your general style, Shivamurti, is somewhat reminiscent of Maitreya, the Kiwi who died, I think it was last year.
Hello Satyadeva
Calling me blessed is just ridiculously sarcastic. I am not saying anything more than Taoism, Buddhism when it gets internal. Nor do I see enlightenment as a thing special. But I do invite you to pick anything I say apart. But blessed, more damned than blessed. I will not be able to say anything outside Tao , or Buddhism, because that really about covers it, except for the areas where almost all of the enlightened ones are either lying or avoiding.
That would be new ground
The problem for me, Shivamurti, is that much of what you’ve recently been writing here doesn’t actually have that unmistakable ‘ring of Truth’.
So, while it might be temporarily quite ‘interesting’ to contemplate, existentially it means absolutely nothing to me, ie it isn’t helpful.
SD
I certainly agree that there is no practical ( ? ) value except one might be able to witness when one is not doing. Enlightenment is not doing. And your are quite right it is further down the line. Before experiencing the total reality of it I never wanted it to be so, I definitely wanted there to be some level where we had input. After this totality I finally understood the importance of living without hope
Bhagwan stated it improperly when he called it a letting go. There is no letting,. there is no go. There is gone. A moment (ZEN ) happens and it is gone. Broken water bucket , no moon, no finger etc. The goose is out. there is no mention of this goose breaking the bottle or the bottle breaking itself, though that bottle breaking itself would be an apt analogy, freeing the trapped goose. I am interested how did we become trapped geese. And why are these bottles so difficult to break.
So Frank what will you do with this goose. You want SD to do it for you? I have read your post, you are capable, but there is not much to get out of me, Maybe when I see a lie,other than that it will just be Taoism or Buddhism. So let’s see I have gone though the last transformation and you would like to call me a wannnabee and you would like to see me off. Is SD your pit bull?
Is it your entertainment to see him pull me to pieces, so you can laugh at my imagined pain and delusion, yes we will struggle like gladiators for you Frank, and then when I am so hurt I will leave and then I can imagine the triumph you will feel Frank.
Frank I am just passing by (COME ON ) I have not been at SN in 15 or so years and it has not changed much. SR was more interesting than I expected, but Frank you are entertaining.
Me I like Rumi ” Give me wine or leave me alone”. So A word from you Frank, or a word from SD and I will leave., come do not be shy, you are superior, we are not friends, just a word. say it ” leave”
Do I wannabee anything ? Frank?
No Frank i do not want to be anything,
The thing about being stuck in the bottle is your stuck in the bottle
Hello SD
Whatever degree what I say might be temporarily interesting, Bhagwan covered everything I say with only a different perspective, I see the man I thought as the greatest anarchist, now as someone spouting the company line. There were only a few exceptions when he broke out of that mode,
before anyone gets exicited by this, disciples would ask does reincarnation exist and in an hour and a half on the subject he would say “yes “and then speak about something else. Didn’t want loose that Hindu audience I guess . Or maybe felt we could not handle the hopelessness of not coming back for another bout of suffering.
And that is because most of what has to be done by men like Him is to bring his audience up to speed. That I am even ” temporally interesting” to this audience is a pat on the back. This group had decades of Bhagwan
for comparison. And that what I say is “temporary and of no value”. You have had Bhagwan for decades and it has been of no value, I am not saying you have not learned, but learning is illusionary. I am not saying you have not grown, but growing is illusionary. So “ring of truth”, you look at what I say through the mind that is attached to you and expect to hear truth,
when there is so little in this life.
I know my girlfriend is part of the illusion, I have no way to even be sure that she exists, I mean this literally, and I love as much as much as the moment will let me.
So I feel this will be my last post here, I do not have anymore to say, I will read the responses and that’s about it. Best of luck to all of you.
Jai Bhagwan!
” Boy Am I glad he is gone, or what a fool. another wannabee bites the dust”.
Shivamurti:
So “ring of truth”, you look at what I say through the mind that is attached to you and expect to hear truth,
when there is so little in this life.
SD:
Not necessarily so, SM, you must remember that I and many others here have been with other masters, other teachers, not just Osho, and have not only heard the truth, but at times, even if only extremely occasionally, for perhaps minute instants (in my case), have intuited what’s being said as an inner truth, not just as ‘interesting ideas’, mere words. That’s what the presence of a genuine master can do…
So there’s more authenticity to the “ring of truth” than you appear to credit.
After all, what else do we have to go on?
As for your statements on our so-called “puppet”-like helplessness, this is not particularly ‘new’ or unfamiliar. Apart from the insights of meditation, enlightenment intensives and therapy, even courses like the EST Training provided spontaneous insights as to one’s ‘mechanical’ mind and habitually robotic patterns of being. The key to mastery, of course, being to simply observe all this, rather than getting blindly and unconsciously caught up in it all, helpless, as it were. Or, in therapeutic terms, to try something else, another way that hopefully might work better.
But perhaps you’d term these mere ‘body/mind issues’, ultimately on a completely different, infinitely more shallow level than where you’re coming from, what you’re referring to?
Perhaps you’re pointing out the radical difference between ‘evolutionary growth’ and a sort of ‘emotional and/or ‘psychological death’, which is apparently what we all have to face if ‘all goes well’ (as it were) in our spiritual quests?
(And btw, re so-called ‘past lives’ and ‘reincarnation’, plus other usually or often ‘hidden’ issues, Barry Long is well worth reading or listening to, and has certainly cleared my head of a load of misinformation. Lokesh’s recent post on ‘reincarnation’ is very much along the lines indicated by BL).
Hello SD
“Ring of Truth”. Those moments are one of the keys, they are enough to carry one forward (excuse the directional). These mystical moments are seemingly not only the reward but the bait as well. It is likened to a trail of cookies to the witches house, not in a negative way. The real point here is what you are speaking of ,those moment are a complete example of the existence we are in. If you want more my suggestion would be to do this old centering space that I am sure youe have heard of. Its the one where you pick a spot you like , you unfocus in that spot every day the same time if possible ,meditate there, and with calm authority speak with GOD (sorry) about your potential. Like we have said “A game of hide and seek”, so you are telling GOD (sorry) you are the seeker and you see it is hiding. I know this might sound old fashioned, childish, and irrationalbut after a while GOD might be there. I do mean this literally. And it is the Existence we live in that changes us. But I must warn you as well that Existence changes us using great drama and despair. For this last chapter it nearly killed me. I enjoy hearing from you, you brought up Maitreya and Barry Long and it is like hear ing a story from another life. For me there is a change every time I close my eyes,when I close my eyes I am gone, I do not exist,no mother ,earth ,past, future,lover, father,nothing. When I open them I have the whole world back again with all of the history I accumulated, it took a little while to size it up. But Maitreya and Barry Long had been forgotten. I have to go my girlfriend wants me cleaning in the kitchen.
shivamurti,
I wouldn’t waste your time with your refined philosophy with this lot!
sounds like your goose is cooked,
but for myself,i`ve given up on wild goose chases and haven’t been on the bottle for years.
my guess is you`ll never get any takers round here.
most of them good lads but they are thick as shit!
the nearest most of this lot have ever got to a “ring of truth” is the one at the bottom of their spine.
Hello Frank
I hear ya!!
well it is sounding like a good group, so I’ll stay and play.
Nothing more than play, but it was worth it taking so many challenges.
Not looking for any takers, but I appreciate the heads up. And personally it is easier for thicker heads than thinner heads, they don’t run when it gets a little scary
shivamurti says:
>> Not looking for any takers,
Why do you bother then? In greek there is saying about never seeing a bull mooing in the desert … you have concocted some system which says that yours is reality and everything else isn’t, so we are excluded from paradise. Silly boy.
Hello again Bodhi
Guess I had better respon to you or someone might say I am not responding to their question. Appairently this is where you wish to hold me, 2 nails in the cross 1 to go. So ;
bodhi vartan says:
15 June, 2013 at 10:19 am
shivamurti says:
>> Not looking for any takers,
Why do you bother then? In greek there is saying about never seeing a bull mooing in the desert … you have concocted some system which says that yours is reality and everything else isn’t, so we are excluded from paradise. Silly boy.
Well Bodhi sorry you misunderstand me so well. First I have not concocted a system, just understood some that it seems some seem to have missed. As far everything being my reality I say none of it is, I leave that to existence. Even you would have to see my surrender to that in my posts when I have to say everything is being thought for us. All body interaction is being done for us, even your tea Bodhi. And how could I know to exclude you from Paradise, I said I am an Illusion, and the next reality( Paridise) will probably be an illusion, and I have no way to know if you actually exist, even if you are in the same room with me. And my understanding is not my understanding. I have nothing Bodhi, I stand nowhere, I am grateful that when I close my eyes I do not exist it is not the tension. You try again Silly Girl
shivamurti says:
>> And my understanding is not my understanding.
Talking like that anywhere else will get you locked up.
Shivamurti.
You sound completely sincere, so no antagonism from me to you is intended, but, but this sounds a very refined ideology to me.
Hello Arpana
It is refined, it is Existentialist, Taoist, Buddhist, Osho. and Rumi on Saturday nights
It is what I experience.
These men ahead of me defined it so superbly. But there are some areas that that they will not speak of.
Lao Tzu will speak of flow. of our movement in this life, effortless flow, Buddha will speak Nothingness, Bhagwan will speak of great Emptyness.
And I say we are Puppets.
I say this because we were forced to come here. I say it because the life we are forced into we have no control, the body is moved for us, the thinking mechanism is not in our control. So not having body or mind in our control we have nothing except to watch the play we are drawn in. When one drops the body mind one has almost complete emptiness,the only conceptual thing one can point to is a presence existing in the emptiness. so while one is not here existence is that warm dark sweet emptiness, but when one is here one is more in the relation ship of a puppet. A watching and loving puppet. Kind of a happy Pinocchio.
But ideology, no this is my experience of this life. Others just defined it so well
Hello Bohdi
And now for more of my refined ideology. You will like this, and so: Actually my understanding is that my understanding is not my understanding. So I like being nothing but the warm sweet darkness better than all that. A goose is still a goose, bottle or no bottle.
Peace Bodhi
shivamurti.
you`re stuck in a duality there.
all is one.
existence is the one fooling itself.
for fun.
dont worry about it.
you only think you exist anyway.
you can leave y`arhat on.
Hello Frank
What you say is truth. I live in two worlds. And Existence is playing hide and seek. I do not worry about it, I do not worry. And Yes I think I exist, but I exist when I do not think, and when I do not have a body. When I lose the body, there is no where to hang the hat. My Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr hat!
Without the hat who would Bodhidharma murder?
i imagine oshodhara and the three stooges would refer to the tea cosies on their heads as “arhats”?
i dont know about free will and pre-destination..
but word is out that if you are a guru or tantra therapist exsoviet/taiwan/korea is the place to go if you are
determined to get free willy.
hello Frank
Yeah I hear what your saying, Bhagwan use say” A master who chases after disciples is a whore”.Don’t you like some of the things he says sometimes. Me I have no plans, am making no plans, I will teach a little here and there, but nothing formal. The business of being a liar has no appeal for me. And the other part is having to deal with so many crazy people. Thanks but no. And Willy, Willys doing ok.
shivamurti says:
>> I will teach a little here and there,
Try there more than here because here we are up to our ears in teachers and masters … you don’t happens to have a loose friend laying around by any chance, do you?
What is it with people all wanting to teach sannyasins? What don’t you try the Xtians or Krishnas? Your lack of understanding of your audience disqualifies from any position of authority over the audience.
Don’t you mean free growler frank? Willys are free everywhere.
VT.
true, but philosophers,as a rule,are not much concerned about the conundrum of determinism versus free growl.
Hello Frank
Brother you are so low , comparing “The Stooges”, how dare you even put their name in the same sentence with the “Dhara Darlings”. Curly would poke out your third eye!
who-who-who-who
Whos is who?
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Its Curly in the 3 stooges
I thought she looked more like Moe.
Hello SD
Never read Maitrea, nor did I know he had died. On this “ring of truth” I could use quotes from Bhagwan, but I would find that Pathetic, I wish to be clearer than that. Not saying that Bhagwan was unclear,the opposite!
I have no way to express the word Emptiness, I can say river, sweet dark,warm,floating, non existing. all these words do circle around this experience- Nor can I tell where I stand when I see this life ongoing from a distance, so that I can say at 5 lightyears away I see my body-mind interacting exactly as if I was there in it. Intangible. But I will not hide behind this word. So there is noting I can prove to you, I never accepted this truth as truth until I was there seeing it, and I know you will never accept this as truth until you see it. So that will not happen while you are stuck in your particular bottle (stuck on this Bottle analogy ) And it will be a surprise how ordinary it is, one becomes a mufti-dimensional being and it is the same as being how you are now to yourself, less self, much more relaxed. So “ring of truth”, I am not asking for anything, I am giving what I see, and actually it seems to be time to leave SN, somehow since my viewpoint or my announcement seems to trouble this circle, they wanted me for a Buddha last place I was at, I turned them down, they got really pissed off, they hate and despise me now, so this reversal is just as interesting.
So SD if someday Existence graces you with the same place to stand and you see the same thing drop me a line, let me know maybe I ‘ll have some other stuff by then. I have to go, my girlfriend just walked into the room naked and said I have to come to bed now, so the choice is write more to you or pursue the unknown with her, so sweet dreams
I would include Shiva & Osho , in the tales of great silences , in India mythology is also considered History .
Parmartha , Iam not so sure if Jesus really died on the cross .
Kavita, you are right to harbour suspicions about Jesus dying on the cross. I could have sworn I saw him dancing with a blonde chic in 4 inch stilletos at last week’s flower power party on Ibiza. The mystery continues.
For me it doesn’t really matter if Jesus existed – or if he did, whether he died on the cross.
My main point here in this string is that when someone becomes somehow united with God or however you want to put it, they become like a red rag to a bull for the “authorities”, if they speak out and attack the multiple hypocrisies in society and amongst those in religious or secular power.
You may not have been around in Pune one, but Osho himself was VERY unpopular with all the Indian authorities, political and religious. There was also an assasination attempt by Hindus. And for what??? just pointing up the ridiculous belief systems of Hinduism, and the terrible social and caste consequences of such beliefs.
For me it is almost weird and strange to hear Osho lauded in the Indian Parliament and all his books arrayed there. Make no mistake they hated him when he was alive.
A respectable Osho. I suppose it was to be expected. Even the Rolling Stones are respectable these days. Sir Jagger wrote a song about it and it opens like this…
Well now we’re respected in society
We don’t worry about the things that we used to be
We’re talking heroin with the president
Well it’s a problem, sir, but it can’t be bent
Parmartha says:
>> For me it is almost weird and strange to hear Osho lauded in the Indian Parliament and all his books arrayed there. Make no mistake they hated him when he was alive.
I remember saying on this forum some weeks back that I am getting a different vibe about Osho while doing a round of London … than we used to get those days.
I was listening to Swami Arun yestarday saying that in Nepal being a sannyasin is a plus and gets you into places quicker, etc, etc. I am actually convinced and I will be going there in a couple of weeks (for a couple of weeks) and I’ll tell you what I find.
My feeling is that people (these days) might less trusting of official sources and opinions and have learned to trust their own eyes and ears more.
Or they have short memories. Either way it’s win, win.
Should actually the events surrounding Buddha and Jesus be accepted as historical truths or facts?
What happened to Buddha and Jesus in the highest case was that a few crafty people/group, those two instrumented to enforce their own ideas. As management, Sw. R. and others do with Osho’s words for their own interpretations and ideas, not more.
unless one witnesses a thing it is heresay
silence?
no.i think that the
“oshobiza life`s a beach then you die before you die festival”(TM)
is going to need a bit of well organised entertainmant.
we`ve got cage fighting for wannabe gurus ,but i`d also like to see some no-holds-barred dirty mud wrestling.
mini kang versus a couple of the rapists from the resort would be top of my pay-per-view list.
some of her knee-to-groin chi kang moves can really move the energy of an aging lothario,so i`ve heard.
dont forget the white rogue brotherhood inner circle..they`ll need a good array of drinking games to keep them busy.
“molest an asian”
“ban a buddha”
“threaten legal action”
they are all firm favourites…
and please no lalala music from praten and dimal..
just lokesh on the turntable…
“goin` down to the promised land..
we`re on the highway to hell..
we`re on the highway to hell…”
yeaah….
Yes, yes, everyone will be…..thunderstruck.
What Buddha they ban ?
Bad Buddha.
Sun Sex & Satori
And if you’re third eye gets sleepy we have drugs for that.
Hamster wheel metaphysics with Shree Niceness
You are-soul readings
Sannyas kids group ‘Who’s your daddy?’
First world problems karmaladerie talking stick circles
Beer Now Buddha bar …
Live Satansang with Lucy Fer
Special needs, ‘Carry me away’, golden oldies music group.
going joy-riding on a stolen donkey in the middle of town on a jewish holiday with all his posse cheering him on probably wasn’t jc`s best idea as it turned out,altho it must have been good fun at the time.
and while we`re talking history,did you know that it has been established as a historical fact by some very serious and pukka buddhist scholars that Buddha died from eating a dodgy bacon butty?
No surprise JC got knocked off his ass, and as for Shakyamuni maker.. Was it Truffles, Pork, or mesenteric infarction, (if that helps)?
If it was pork… well instant karma’s a bitch.
The name of the guy who served him the dish was called Cunda… You couldn’t make it up.
Btw the prophet is rather partial himself… Morehamhead.
sound like a load of pork pies,to me.
If sannyasins or advatists business goes bankrupt, in a bubbling economy, what he will say-
I am not a bubble I am an individual.
Silence and Sex-
what is common between them?
Most of us need the other to trigger the E point or G point!
When an Osho disciple writes about Buddha, Krishna, Jesus or Ramana Maharishi, it is considered words born out of wisdom by the other equally wise people.
But write about Osho, and the same people will shout with the same throat infection, ” How long you will remain attached with the dead old man or you are holding the finger which pointing towards the moon.”
To me at least it sounds like, Moronic meanness of the refined souls!
Lotus will grow out of the mud. Ugh!
Belated happy birthday to you Parmartha. Love light and healing.
(Just saw it on facebook)
“He became so absorbed in his work, people forgot his name. He became simply his work. World remembers him as Mr. Architect!
We Salute him, feel motivated by his work.”, said the enthusiastic person.
“Great. So you people are now in construction business. creating top notch buildings.” , enquired the listener.
“No. we are in flourishing Publishing business.” came the answer.
Shantam, you’ve gone random again.
We are blessed by your free range posts Shantam.
But what is the F…… Point?
Shantam’s back to sniffing solvents and eating boot polish sandwiches.
This is from Living Osho by Saco Swami.
I recall the drama in Oregon. I remember the master’s instructions “to be
total” as the drama unfolded. He didn’t say to be total if you were clear, to
be total if you were good, no, His instructions were quite simple “to be total”.
I found the concept quite frightening. It was one thing to be total in the
ashram, and quite another to be total in the world, after all, you’re basically
giving the ego permission to do, to say, anything that happens to appear in
consciousness in the moment. I remember, at the time, being in awe of Sheela, for she seemed to be the most total of all the sannyasins. Was she clear?
Apparently not, but then who was?? I regarded her then, as I do to this day, as
Osho’s greatest disciple. She had the courage, and the trust in the Master to
follow his instructions to the letter, no matter what darkness or craziness it
led her into. I had neither that level of courage or trust. And who’s to say
the master didn’t want the commune to crash and burn?? Even before the move to America He was expressing a weariness at playing the Master game. Perhaps Oregon was His way of ending it? Bottom line, it remains a part of the mystery of Osho and His work, and it’s kind of discouraging that sannyasins are still wasting energy in this pointless blame game.
Reposted from Living Osho.
”I dont see how Sheela could be seen as the greatest disciple when she bugged Osho’s room and his household’s rooms without their knowledge. She clearly wanted to “control” osho and his household, and that is not the mark of a disciple at all.
Love, Parmartha”
I found your comment at living Osho interesting Parmartha, because I homed in on his comment about totality, and the Sheela comments were secondary to me. Interesting how such a small piece can attract different responses.
Totality includes intelligence.
Define intelligence.
Arpana says:
>> Define intelligence.
Scripting your responses so you don’t react to the moment.
Brilliant.
Best definition ever.
Are you winding me up?
@ BD.
No.
I meant @ Bhodi Vartan.
No.
Utterly bonkers. Screams cult member. Who does nazi that ?
Be a bit more precise Dom will yah.
Bit soon to use the Nazi word.
We have two posters here who fit the use of the word Nazi more than this.
This is only one post. He’s plainly given the piece a bit of consideration.
I’d rather use the word fascistic about them than Nazi on reflection. Sheela was fascistic at the minimum in the end.
Arpana says:
>> I’d rather use the word fascistic about them than Nazi on reflection. Sheela was fascistic at the minimum in the end.
Probably most ppl if put in her shoes would have ended up in the same (if not worse) mess. The dynamics of power are complex and I don’t think Osho truly knew what he was doing. He should have known that Sheela was cracking. One aspect of Osho we haven’t discussed is His own institutionalisation.
BV said.
Probably most ppl if put in her shoes would have ended up in the same (if not worse) mess.
Yes.
Mein frau, Hyu haff VAYS of making me tok, and extracting information wiz yor interrogation techniques. Ok I vill tok…und tok… Ozerwise i get ze sheela death glare. Nein nein, anyzing but zat!
Vell I vas just totally being an instrument of ze divine, following orders, ven I zaid zis.
For ze good of ze Reich, ze Feuhrer, ze new world leader, of Sanyassassin Nachrichten, and a vision vor ze next zousand years!
Ok dizipline me. I’m in my bunkher wiz my astrology charts. Zen vee invade Poland, ja?
Arpana says, ‘She had the courage, and the trust in the Master to
follow his instructions to the letter, no matter what darkness or craziness it led her into.’
Methinks Arpana is not aware of the obvious parallels one could draw from reading such a statement.
I didn’t say that.
Re read it.
No need to reread as I can recall copy and pasting your words.
Just for the record, Arpana, I reread your comment and found this statement of yours, ‘She had the courage, and the trust in the Master to
follow his instructions to the letter, no matter what darkness or craziness it
led her into.’ Any comment? You sound confused.
Try again. You are still not reading the comment properly.
Arpana, a bit egocentric here. As a writer it is up to you to convey the message. First off you say that you didn’t say that and now that it is clear that you did it is up to me to understand what you really meant. Come off it. If it is important enough to respond why don’t you just say what you meant. Or is Shantypants your new guru?
Arpana , seems one loaded goods train just passed by !
You lost me Kavita!
good to know that !
LOL
In hide sight, One of the biggest mismatch happened when disciples from the west started pouring in to Osho, who has basically Indian estayle of speaking and expressing.
As a fact, Osho had no idea about the Western collective mind, which has more or less jurisdictive bent of mind, factual straight, no metaphors no round about turns.
I have not read a single sentence in any of the Osho books, where he has mentioned any of His previous life in any of the Western countries.
Osho has quite often spoken about his teachers and professors, and now I wonder, why someone has not given the idea to this laborious student to do his masters from Oxford or Cambridge?
History of Osho Sannyas would have taken a different flavour.
So it was bound to happen what has happened. Majority share holders from the west are using all their skills to spread Osho´s work in their home turf!
Surely one day, we will see mango grooves growing near the vineyards!
And I don´t doubt, global warming and head strong mind can create miracles…but most probably with Osho´s work not.
PS- to write the above post came from my own personal experiences at sannyasnews. When ever I write something in metaphors, that mind freaks out, which understands only, ” Charlie..don´t sit on the sofa. Charlie..Go!”
Well, Shantam, I think it’s true that Osho was ‘like a fish out of water’ in the West, leading him to choose someone as ill-suited to her role as Sheela, for example.
And btw, I enjoy your metaphors, as do others here, I’m sure. In fact, some time ago someone once commented to that effect.
Always think of Shantam as A metaphor. doncha know!
shantam prem says:
>> In hide sight, One of the biggest mismatch happened when disciples from the west started pouring in to Osho, …………
History of Osho Sannyas would have taken a different flavour.
What a great post Shanti. Through various twists and fates I happen to be seriously pondering upon this very subject myself. As I have said before, on some level he seduced us (honkies) but then in turn we seduced him … but I am not talking about that now.
From the very beginning of my exposure to Osho I found his understanding of the Western mind exemplary. Let’s get real, the American mind is not Western thought. American thought is infantile and works (?) with short sharp slogans of the bumper sticker type.
Just by following Osho’s literary output you can see the exact point where he stopped talking to Indians … to which I could go further and say that most of the Pune2 material would make no sense to Indians at all. Having said that, during his world tour, he spoke to Indians quite a lot.
Osho in the west is a completely different animal. I don’t as yet have a complete picture of what it’s going to look like, but the picture is getting clearer all the time. I wish I could tell you more. But you are right, if the meating (meeting?) between Osho and the white chicks didn’t happen, Osho sannyas would have taken a different flavour. But happen it did, and the genie can’t put back in the bottle. There will be a western cultural manifestation. When? Who knows?
Bodhi V states, ‘There will be a western cultural manifestation. When? Who knows?’
Well, BV certainly doesn’t know, that is 100% sure.
This comes across as misinformed and uninspired drivel. BV, where are you living, man? In a Himalayan cave?
You must be if you think there will be a western cultural manifestation somewhere in futuresville, because it has already happened….big time and you must be blind not to have noticed that.
BV says, ‘ I don’t as yet have a complete picture of what it’s going to look like, but the picture is getting clearer all the time.’
Yeah, right. Who you trying to kid? There is very little I would describe as clear about your above comment. Statements like ‘if the meating (meeting?) between Osho and the white chicks didn’t happen, Osho sannyas would have taken a different flavour.’ come across like pompous nonsense. Really, Bodhi, you want to get back to the drawing board and find out where it was that you took a wrong turning into mundane alley.
Lokesh says:
>> You must be if you think there will be a western cultural manifestation somewhere in futuresville, because it has already happened….big time and you must be blind not to have noticed that.
The great thing about talking drivel is that there is always somebody who is ready to correct it. I did say I am not sure and I did say that it is work in progress.
If the western manifestation you are implying is what happened during Osho’s lifetime, then where is it now? You guys have failed. And for that reason alone you also expect everybody else to fail. Let’s start from step one. Step one says that if there is an answer, it is unlikely to be in your head because all you have experienced is failure.
In the simplest terms the east provided the meditations and the west provided the therapy. At the moment I am studying the easterners and the westerners as two separate groups and I am specifically looking at how the individuals within each group interact with each other. Let me give you an example. Let’s say we are a looking at a bunch of Indian sannyasin and a bunch of fresh out of ex-soviet block sannyasins, none of which have ever been exposed to therapy … (this part is work in progress) but what I can tell you is that, sannyasins who have been exposed to therapy tend to hold onto ‘issues’ for longer.
I can say one thing for sure … we are going to avoid the cult of personality. I think the west is bored with that construct. We are still looking for the truth. And the truth will be that which works. Merely knowing that which does not work, may be viewed as an advancement, but probably not by you. Hehe.
Hello Lokesh
Speaking of the world tour, if you have it available, listen “Beyond Enlightenment 22 question 6, give me your impression, if you have time.
Hi, SM, would not know where to find Beyond Enlightenment on Ibiza. If it is an Osho book I would have to have it laid on me to give it a chance of reading it. Season is taking off right now and don’t have much time for enlightenment let alone going beyond it. I no longer sweat life’s bigger questions, I just live it. So far so good. After meeting HWL in Lucknow I kind of dropped the whole idea of ‘geeting’ enlightened, because it is so ridiculous an idea. You can till the ground, sow the seed and…well you probably know the rest.
Don’t worry Loki … I just DL the .pdf in two secs and
“Beyond Enlightenment 22 question 6,
does not exist. Ch22 only goes up to question 5 … I’ll guide you through the pitfalls of the modern world even though I don’t have a clear picture.
Okay, BV,will check it out.
I read a little of it and it comes across as a bit simplistic. Viewing death as a change of apartments etc. Will return to it later. Thanks for info.
Hey Bodhi Loki
Sorry Guys.
It was about 76 minutes into the discourse and to be honest listening to it now on my computer it does not have the impact it did 2 years ago in the Himalayans on rinky -dinky player. One had to look at this through paranoid eyes, with said rinky-dink player.
So sorry it might be a waste of time.
ya Loki
This gardening is a bitch!
Wish there was an easier, more productive way. Bhagwan does not lie about this on one side, he keeps saying one has to be total, gamble everything each and every time, go through great despair. Once it is done one sees how easy it is, how it is almost a small thing. And then one actually sees the true nature of this existence. But it is not until then that one is willing to believe it. Hence all the confrontations for me here recently. And then contrary to belief we all see basically the same. Bhagwan did not lie, it is so simple, there is not even a letting go (though this is a good way to explain it. It is gone , somehow Existence takes away-subtracts the tension. It may actually be easier for simple individuals. They do not have to deal with the concept of madness when they move into alignment talking with God-Existence. And I do mean literal contact. If anyone would have told me I would be saying such things I would have laughed at them, But after the last 3 years of that jungle I am being quite conservative.
I’ve often. (Well not: ‘I’ OBVIOUSLY!!) wondered if existence sent Osho to America to have him martyred.
I was going to say wondered if Osho deliberately set out to get himself martyred by going to the states, but knowing what I know now he wouldn’t have would he?
Arpana
To me it is so, there are no accidents, there are no coincidences . And the last part. They were pulling Mansoor to pieces and he was laughing, His torturer before cutting out his tongue asked “Why are you laughing” Mansoor said because you think you are killing me. So as far as Bhagwan from what I saw I would say yes. But that means nothing it is hearsay.
Hello Bodhi
I would offer that it has been mentioned in a few sources that the American Indian would rise as spiritual leaders of the world. The thought that came along with this was the repression they have suffered under. If you do not know, the American Indians are descendants of Palis that left Nepal and Tibet about 10,000 years ago, and still follow a relevant shamanistic way,
One of my bedside books right now is Rolling Thunder. Fantastic man.
The American Indians have nothing to teach. Their internal social system is the worst in the world.
And your 10,000 year old manual can’t fix my rocket either.
Bodhi
Here we go again. The criteria for Enlightenment is three part One bucket despair, one desperation, one suffering. And they have tons of it. They have the worst social system in the world Yes. Oh but their meditations are beautiful, for three days you stand, no water, no water, no food, no sleep. You chant, you sing, you dance, the hot July sun beats down on you. You pass out, collapse. at the end of 3 days at the full moon pins are pushed through your flesh above each nipple (with women they use the back), ropes are put on these pins and you are lifted off the ground. You meet the White Buffalo Calf-Spiderwomen. I am Choctaw. This is called the Sun-Dance- Ghost Dance. There is more that happens, but I leave it at this. This Shamanism was brought from Tibet 10,000 years ago, it goes all thru north and south American history (Indian).
So you don’t know how to fix your rocket ship, I’ll sell you a horse.
>> You meet the White Buffalo Calf-Spiderwomen.
I surrender. You win. Now what?
AHHH Bodhi, I didn’t win, let’s just keep dancing my friend.
Hello Satyadeva
My small opinion was Socratic. Bhagwan chose the most powerful government on the planet to kill him, so he would be remembered in history. Socrates, Mansoor, would we remember them, had they not died as they did
Sorry, Shivamurti, that’s too far-fetched, perfectly ludicrous to suggest that he “chose” to be killed, esp at that point.
Anyway, it’s not even clear that he was “killed” by the US government.
And yes, Socrates would almost certainly be remembered without the manner of his death.
As for Mansoor, well, not many have heard of him, have they? I only vaguely know his name – wasn’t he that American murderous maniac who led some drug-crazed commune in the 60′s? Oh no, that was Manson….
Hello Satyadeva
Personally I have to stand by that, when I heard Bhagwan was in the U.S., my only thought was” Oh sh?t. They are going to kill him”. Now I am A carpenter, unducated, nothing special, but I saw this. And then when his first words after 2 years were ” Christianity is a dead religion” I said ” F?ck thats the end of the commune! And then when I heard he had been arrested I quit my job and headed for N. Carolina, I was going to get myself thrown in jail so he would not be alone, because I knew they would do something to him there, so I figure if a dummy like me was able to see all this, then surely he must of seen it coming
While his murder was questionable, poison and radioactive is difficult to prove. I would say that only a few of the killers I have known were honest about it, and none ever volunteered the information.
SM states, ‘Bhagwan chose the most powerful government on the planet to kill him.’
That is stretching the imagination’s knicker elastic to breaking point. Osho once told me that one of the most ridiculous things a human being can do is be concerned with how they will be remembered when they are dead. I felt he really meant that at the time and I agree with him totally today.
Existence gunned him down
“existence gunned him down”?
you`re beginning to sound a bit like john wayne on ayahuasca there, ol` timer….
Haaaaa! – response of the year, frank!!
don’t forget,the wild west had a few enlightened masters too…
http://www.youtube/watch?v=ks7-A-7Zvak
hE WAS SHOT IN THE BACK
existence shot a man in reno
just to watch him die
sounds like the ring of truth has turned into a ring of fire…
go easy on the re-fried chilli beans,and tequila worms pard`ner..
Sure thing, pard’ner – It sure burns, burns, burns, that ring o’ fire…kinda reminds a man o’ the truth…an’ even o’ the Truth….
@ Frank
http://www.find-me-a-gift.co.uk/ring-of-fire-after-curry-wipes.html
shivamurti says:
>hE WAS SHOT IN THE BACK
He was given the American version of the Dim Mak death touch
yA THINK
Shantam says, ‘I have not read a single sentence in any of the Osho books, where he has mentioned any of His previous life in any of the Western countries.’
Shantam is that so surprising? Osho was much too intelligent to believe in personal reincarnation. Yes, he delivered all that waffle about being a master who died so he had to come back just one more time etc. Very effective and most appealing to those of a sentimental spiritual leaning…the girls love that kind of fiction. Lies are fine if they work towards a positive goal, I suppose. Osho would have talked about his previous lives in Western countries had he needed to for one reason or another. It obviously was not deemed necessary in his eyes or he would have manufactured something suitable. I know this because I knew Osho in a past life and therefore am in a position to understand such deep matters. What a joke.
Osho was looking for Western disciples down at Dipti’s juice bar in the Colaba back in the sixties. Who can blame him? He was desperate to find someone who could perhaps understand him and going by the shite you just wrote he never did have much success with Indians even if there are so many of the blighters.
I am believing in the reincarnation because as hindi proverb say
“admi chello chuddie hai
chuddie chello admi nay”
means:you can take the man out of the chuddies but you cannot take chuddies out of the man
western mind freaks when I speak in eastern metaphors.western mind go in straight line “Charlie is on the sofa.get off sofa charlie”but eastern mind understand charlie is on sofa and also under one platform in mango season (88-90) in previous incarnation.
eastern mind majority shareholder in akashik records challenged by legacy holders company directors and corner shop stall holders now professors from oxford and Cambridge saying osho was king Arthur in previous life and inner circle also knights of the round table drinking heavily from the chalice of CEO of Christian Anglo-Saxon corporation.
one day we will see mango breasted porn girls running through the vineyards of west and westerners will have all bouncing fruits on the home turf!
Frank, thank you for your humour, man.
“admi chello chuddie hai
chuddie chello admi nay”
Hootz!
I cant take the credit.
it was the spirit of some 16th century mystic poet writing his doha through me.
cant remember his name.
kebab,or something.
You were channeling kebab? The mind bogoleth.
You sound like your channelling Shantam when you make those sweeping statements.
You say some interesting things you know, but screw up with those Shantam like remarks.
Good 1st two paragraphs.
Shivamurti said. to Bhodi Smartypants.
Apparently this is where you wish to hold me, 2 nails in the cross 1 to go.
So ;
******************
Oh dear. Poor old you. Bein’ crucified by Bhodi.
(H’es a very naughty boy.)
You shouldnt let him get to you.
You are the only individual anyone has ever been horrid to here.
All together now.
Oh dear.!!!!!!
OH Dear is this all the sympathy you can muster? That Bodhi Is hammering his point, Did I scream for help? I was just hoping (?) to part dog from bone
Well its not as if I have any choice is it?
That’s all the sympathy existence can manifest through I who am not, to you who are not.
Hello Arpana
Your seem to making great choiceless decisions to me, well done. The balance has been reestablished. So is a lot of energy? here spent being horrid
Definately
shivamurti says:
>> I was just hoping (?) to part dog from bone
You leave my phone out of it please.