SN was asked to carry the below article from Swami Anand Arun, the Coordinator of Osho Tapoban, the large centre in Nepal. As his organisation seems happy to keep the article open for comments we have agreed, but without it must be said any particular agreement with the views expressed.
23 years have passed since Osho left his body, and today he is recognized as one of the most influential thinkers of the past century. The Sunday Times in London described him as one of the ‘1000 Makers of the 20th Century’, and the Sunday Mid-Day in India called him one of the ten people—along with Gandhi, Nehru and Buddha—who have changed the destiny of India. However, this was not the respect that Osho received while he was alive.
He spoke fearlessly against all spiritual hypocrisy and orthodox religions. He exposed priests and politicians, and shattered age-old traditions and superstitions. He boldly stood against all that he thought was a hindrance to the path of self realization. As a result, this made him the most talked about and controversial mystic of the twentieth century. The consequences were that his efforts to awaken mankind were answered with several attempts on his life. His lectures and public appearances were cancelled. His commune was closed and he was arrested and deported from America. Twenty-one countries denied him entry, and eventually he died through the poison given to him by the world’s most powerful government.
The majority of the world is interested in the fulfillment of its basic needs of food, sex and other worldly desires. People at large worship those figures, philosophies, and ideals that help them attain these needs.
The common man has no interest in the poetry of Kalidas, the music of Ravishankar, a painting by Van Gogh, or a beautiful book by Herman Hesse, Kazantzakis or Dostoevsky. These things don’t fulfill his basic needs. It is a common rule that the more valuable a piece of art, the fewer are the people who appreciate it.
This applies to the spiritual world as well. Gurus that are not interested in the arduous process of their disciple’s inner transformation but rather assure them a gratification of their greed and desires become more popular. This is the reason why masters such as Socrates, Jesus, Mohammed, Kabir, John of Arc and Mansoor aren’t understood by the society; instead they are brutally crucified.
Mahavira, Buddha and Krishna are among the few masters who, despite being extremely revolutionary, were respected to a certain extent during their lifetimes. This was only because they came from royal families. Most masters only get the respect they deserve a long time after they leave their bodies. This is because their revolutionary ideas contradict the society’s preference for a conventional lifestyle of status quo.
I am not surprised that Osho had to face many controversies and conflicts during his lifetime. In the last century, India had two authentically intellectual masters – J Krishnamurti and Osho. Their teachings were extremely argumentative and intellectual, and neither tried to tempt their disciples with any kind of consolation. As a result, Krishnamurti got confined to a small group of intellectuals, while Osho’s combined teaching of meditation, love, tantra, yoga, and knowledge, although well received by a larger group, became equally controversial.
The vast range of Osho’s teachings made him more influential than Krishnamurti. He covered everything from the individual quest for meaning to the most urgent social and political issues facing individuals and society today. He accepted the fact that love and sex are the basic needs of life. After a keen study of the ideas of many Western psychologists, Osho combined philosophies of Freud, Jung, Adler and Wilhelm Reich with the ancient science of tantra. As a consequence, the sexually suppressed general mass labeled him “The Sex Guru”.
Osho talked about religion in a scientific manner, and opposed all beliefs and traditions that weren’t scientific, regardless of their popularity. Sex is the second basic need after food, and even though nobody is free from it, everybody eagerly condemns it. Very few were able to digest the definition of sex coming from the mouth of a spiritual master. His life-affirmative ideas regarding the acceptance of sex and its beauty, along with the belief that sexual suppression led to unhealthy perversion, were very difficult for the general public to understand.
Some sort of superstition and unscientific character has entered every religion in the world today, giving an intense rise to the profession of spiritual frauds. Osho attacked all these superstitions and religious exploitations, while these frauds that had made religion a business and a measure to exploit, attacked him in return. But this didn’t stop Osho from exposing them. Consequently, all these so called religious leaders who could never come together for any other reason formed a group and pressurized the politicians under them. They all voiced the same slogans, ‘Osho should be exiled,’ ‘he has to be sent to jail,’ ‘his tongue should be cut,’ etc.
Even in a country like America that boasts of human rights and freedom in its land, Osho had to face the brutal consequences of the influence of the Church and Priests over the US government. During Osho’s world tour in 1986, 21 Christian countries did not allow him to even step out of his plane and onto their land. Osho was mutually given the title of a “spiritual terrorist”.
Throughout his life, Osho remained non-serious towards people who were against him and would lampoon them in his discourses for their stupidity and ignorance.
For time immemorial, all organized religions have been against any kind of change or revolution. Newton, Archimedes, Galileo, and James Watt had to face severe hostility from organized religions for their revolutionary scientific theories.
Science could not develop in the East because of the escapist principles of Eastern religions, and thus religions here didn’t have to face any attacks from science. This is the reason why the religions in the east are still conformist and against development. Here, the initiators of change and development were also from spiritual backgrounds such as Raja Rammohan Ray, Dayanand Saraswati, Sufi and Bowl Saints, Kabir, Nanak and Sikh Gurus. Even these people had to face the brutalities of established religion. But as their influence was limited only to certain areas, the mutiny against them was also limited.
Osho is a modern representation and a clear testimony of this observation. He did not believe in the improvement of rotten principles, rather he stood for the re-construction of society with a religion based on scientific values and facts. No country in the world could escape the influence of Osho’s truthful eloquence in the media, and as a result he had to face resentment from conformists all over the world.
The author is an Osho disciple and coordinator of OshoTapoban
The article is well written and contains a number of poignant points. It comes across as educated and informative in general. The author is obviously not stupid. Below the surface a lot of what is said is party line in support of Osho being someone who acted in an enlightened way at all times. It is a lovely vision, but, from my perspective, presents a very imbalanced picture of who and what Osho was actually a representive of.
As I’ve said before on this site I’ve always maintained a warts an’ all vision of Osho. He was, apart from anything else, a man, a human being capable of making major blunders. In a way this makes me appreciate him all the more for showing his personal vulnerability on this level, because as a human being I can relate to that. I have no need to place Osho on a pedeestal of perfection.
Once again we hear this bullshit about Osho’s persecution at the hands of the American government of the time, as if he were some innocent. The image projected in the article is full of gaping holes. Osho got himself into trouble because people who were put in charge of his organisation by him broke more than a few serious laws in America. It is tedious to go into it and I don’t doubt that anyone reading this who has a little common sense in their heads knows exactly what I am reffering to. The need to project an image of Osho as some kind of saintly figure says more about the author than Osho, because Osho declared many times that he was not a saint…he couldn’t stand saints!
There are a number of glaring inconsistencies in the article, but I won’t go into them as it would doubtless bore the reader, so I’ll only mention one more.
Osho as sexual liberator is a one-sided story. One side that the author perhaps does not have a clue about is this. Traditionally in guru-led spiritual groups boy and girl disciples are encouraged to stay apart. The reason being that it is more difficult to form emotional bonds and thus the energy is directed towards the guru. Osho did this another way but to the same ends. He encouraged the boys and girls to get together to such an extent that it was difficult to form lasting relationships because temptation to go with someone else was always there. Thus the emotional energy was directed towards him. You can decide why he created such a possibility for yourself. I might add that I’ve noticed that a number of couples who came together during those halycon days and managed to stay together formed such a deep bond, because they had to in order to survive the emotional battleground they found themselves living in, that they became lifelong partners. Thanks to Osho’s commune I found such a partner and am very grateful for that.
Osho was an incredible social experimentar. It is stupid to ignore the fact that such experimentation inevitably produces a few mistakes, because that is the nature of experimentaion. Better to learn from those mistakes and the damage they created than to sweep them under the carpet of presenting a perfect image, which is what the above article is all about.
arun says….
“the majority of the world is interested in the fulfilment of its basic needs of food ,sex and other worldly desires.
people at large worship those figures,philosophies and ideals that help them attain these needs”
unlike osho people ,eh?
“worldly desires”?
if the author is partial to a good meal, the company of friends,a dance,some good poetry,art,music and the occasional shag,which he obviously is from what he writes,then whats this “worldly desire” bollocks?
i`m sure aruns a nice guy to have a chat with, but a lot of this letter sounds to me like the garbled pontificating of a guy with a throbbing hindu hangover and a trishul stuck up his ass !
Osho was exposing other religions, who will expose his own religion sorry religiousness of the people of his own religion?
This school class essay is quite good but not diagnostic at all…
I wonder how long we will hide behind the greatness of Osho…
“You know, my dad was a modren day Robbin hood. See, all these news cuttings about him. He was interviewd by Hearld Tribune, Independent etc.”
“And what about you? Have you also inherited some of his qualites?”, asked the listener.
“Sure, i am second best in the police academy”, said the proud son.
Osho cannot be summarised in conventional terms as he is here by Swami Arun.
Osho was dangerous! And dangerous not only for the whole of society, but in particular for the egos of those attracted to him. Anyone dangerous may get accolades long after their death, but when they are alive, my God, do they upset the “establishment” and their disciples!
Those in history as far apart as Mansoor, Jesus, and Gurdjieff…. they were scary with a purpose to the established forces. I know some punters on this board consider Osho sort of championship, not premier league, but when I lived in India in the seventies the political infrastructure, and the social forces of Hinduism sure saw him as a threat, and freely proclaimed him a “devil”! Now 23 years later those who would have sought his demise, fuss and enthuse all his books into their parliament… something strange about that.
I would prefer potted biographies, etc to focus on this. Osho’s invitation was to a life free of the state, free of the conditioning of the family and society – as a preparation to being totally free….
Well, now he’s no longer around over there it’s safe to think and declare how great he was, without any danger of being required to ‘walk the talk’ – or rather, ‘the thought’!
He’s become a ‘mind trip’ for such people…And they’re not the only ones….
thats right parmartha – osho is dangerous for the ego and all vested interests – it is the case that living buddhas are always condemned from all sides –
today people begin to respect their idea of a dead buddha who is no threat to them – yet the living buddha is still condemned
it is a wonder to me that the compassion of buddhas is such that they try to bring transformation to humanity even though they are misunderstood and betrayed even by the people who are attracted to them
i asked rajneesh once – why are you bothering with all this ? – you can live your life perfectly well without all the hassle and trouble from an idiotic humanity – why try to help people and draw their stones on you? they dont understand anything and would rather you were dead than be helped out of their miserable game
“that is a buddhas job dhyanraj – to be crucified !
it is like you are having a beautiful feast for yourself and all around are people starving – you start feeling guilty and a criminal if you dont try to feed them also – when you know they dont have to starve”
anyway i thank you for having the courage to print rajneesh’s heart attack story – my friends at oshonews punya maneesha and all felt it was fitting to ignore the story and not print it in their “no osho news” as rajneesh is universally condemned by all branches of organised sannyasins – even though they may be enemies to each other like OIF and osho world – they agree on this that rajneesh should be prevented from doing his masters work
some in the sannyas circles see him positively – osho’s enlightened sannyasin swami brahma vedant kindly invited him to share his ashram in gujurat
and swami arun osho’s lover has been inviting rajneesh to come and stay in nepal where the atmosphere is more friendly to osho – a beautiful man – these people dont feel threatened by rajneesh
those who understood osho understand rajneesh
those who didnt really – are his enemies today – that please god let osho be dead and no more trouble to us again – we can make a living out of selling him now hes dead we dont want him alive and upsetting us !!
You still don’t get the point, Dhyan Raj, ie that Swami R has ‘shot himself in the foot’ by his quite ludicrous impersonation of a dead man, and by his statements.
For you, he’s a “buddha”, for others, he’s a rather laughable and/or rather nasty piece of work.
No one has had to persuade me of these views, I’m not the victim of some sinister propaganda campaign, I’ve come to them independently, as a result of certain impressions.
As for “Osho’s work”, specifically re the ‘therapriests’ issue:
Didn’t Osho encourage all sorts of therapies in his movement, especially in his ashram? As I’ve said already, I’m no fan of ‘therapists as priests’, not at all, but to summarily throw out the lot and say ‘only dancing is the way’ is pretty bloody extreme, is it not?! But there again, Swami R is an Indian, and Indians rather don’t take to therapy, do they?
Far more convenient for Rajneesh to clear the decks and found a new regime, with himself at the helm, where he feels unthreatened, unbothered by people who might just be a bit of a thorn in his side. IE, this can be viewed as a political act as much as anything else, politics being essentially about power.
Of course, if that’s what he wants and he can get away with it, and people turn up and get whatever they get, why not?
For you and others he’s something, for me and others he’s not, in fact he’s most questionable. Foolish to try to foist your notions on everyone else, like a righteously fanatical missionary, replete with a ‘victim’ identity to hang on both yourself and your spiritual teacher. When you behave like that you don’t appear very intelligent.
osho still lives – as you have never been in tune with osho you think he is dead
as i have told you before – i dont care what you believe – ignorance loves ignorance
my purpose in commenting here is not to persuade satyadeva, martyn et al of anything – it is simply to counter with the truth the ignorant and misinformed views being spread about rajneesh by those who dont know nothing – for those come to sannyas news looking for news of sannyas
Dhyan Raj:
osho still lives – as you have never been in tune with osho you think he is dead
SD:
Really? When did you last see him then?! Do I really have to spell out what I was referring to? Use your common sense, man.
(PS: I see your respect still hasn’t stretched to writing Osho’s and Rajneesh’s names with capital O or R).
Dhyan Raj:
…the ignorant and misinformed views being spread about rajneesh by those who dont know nothing – for those come to sannyas news looking for news of sannyas
SD:
I repeat, Rajneesh’s own behaviour has caused my negative opinion of him, not anything others have persuaded me to believe. He’s ‘shot himself in the foot’, but you steadfastly refuse to recognise this as no doubt it conflicts with your version of how totally, flawlessly ‘wonderful’ he is. I mean, how can such a “buddha” be such an utter shit?!
I appreciate this must be tough for you to swallow, but that’s how it is.
(PS: Watch your grammar: “those who don’t know nothing” means the opposite of what you intend!).
PPS: I see you remain silent re my point about his attitude to therapy (11.27pm yesterday).
Simply, Swami R is what he is, no doubt he’ll attract a few people, maybe many, as there’s a great psycho-spiritual hunger out there, and I don’t doubt you yourself are benefitting from being around him, but to declare or imply he’s some sort of ‘mouthpiece of Osho’, an indisputable new ‘leader’ of sannyas, virtually ‘the Master re-incarnate’, the ‘One for Everyone’, is patently absurd, a total and utter delusion. It’s a shame you’re allowing your zeal to undermine your intelligence.
Dhyanraj, did you ever have a chat with Osho on his back porch?
Good and better to be in the online company of you guys above who write like you do than to be in Arun’s..or any potted proselytisers, of whom unfortunately there are too many. And I don’t give a stuff about soaking up anyone else’s transcendent energy, if it means shuttin one’s gob as a mark of respect or devotion. Knickers to that and Arun’s trademark on truth.
I like Lokesh’s comment about divide and rule sexually, ..I said it at the time, but was overruled by the clones of growthdom, who used and abused whatever they could for their own agenda. Life could have been more lovingly truly rebelliously nourishingly worthy in my opinion had we had less of the group club fanaticism and less ambitious gibberish which Osho spawned and foisted directly via his agents, in his mad dash for eternity, which actually wasn’t different to living lovingly rebelliously, kindly, if you knew how to do it on your and not his merits.
I don’t wanna write much tonite so I’ll leave it there for now.
But very nice individuated posts, cheers.
Osho’s invitation was to a life free of the state, free of the conditioning of the family and society – as a preparation to being totally free….
Parmartha, don’t you think, Osho’s invitation(s) were like new year greeting cards, everytime a new theme, fitting with the changing realites.
As i remember, above invitation was issued in 1976, when hippies were coming to India and before they could spread their wings, disappered from the scene.
Osho too changed the invitation.
One thing which remain constant was the synthesis of different energies, just like Spice box of Indian kitchen.
Arun not my cuppa .
” a lot of this letter sounds to me like the garbled pontificating of a guy with a throbbing hindu hangover and a trishul stuck up his ass !”
”Better to learn from those mistakes and the damage they created than to sweep them under the carpet of presenting a perfect image, which is what the above article is all about.” &
” Osho cannot be summarised in conventional terms as he is here by Swami Arun.”
”Osho’s invitation was to a life free of the state, free of the conditioning of the family and society – as a preparation to being totally free…. ” &
” This school class essay is quite good but not diagnostic at all…” &
” Good and better to be in the online company of you guys above who write like you do than to be in Arun’s.. ” , is my cuppa .
Sugar?
no just plain , for me !
I had to google: trishul
Can I book a date?
Common sense requires that we look at the circumstances, people and the country where Arunji is working.
If i am at Arunji’s position and in Nepal, i will do exactly the same, 100% same.
At present, Nepali sannyasins radiate the aura of emotionally and spiritually nurtured, where as all the western sannyasins including me, the Sans Papier, are like Orphans of the broken orphange looking for the role in the big vast world, which gives a shit to the so called New man and new vision.It is already gracious on the part of old mind and old religions that they don’t tount us.
What Osho could do, he has done; more than any one else in the spiritual sector. Problem lies with smarter than smart disciples, who have good intention to sprinkle Coke Light over the plants, thinking water was given by the old religions.
If I was in his ( Arun’s ) place I would not take (by wrong means) a fellow-traveller’s ( Swami Satya Tirth , who now lives in Kuchwada ) property to do my master’s work , anyways to each her / his own .
We are learning Kavita. We don’t know everything.
Actually BV , Iam not saying I know everything , its just that at times I cant help myself , specially when I have been around during a certain happening , Swami Satya Tirth at that time had shared this episode with us ( my boyfriend & me ) , we used to be co-managers of Natraj ,a restaurant he (Sw.ST ) owned in Koregaon Park , well we never got paid , thats another story .
anyway BV , Iam taking a summer break on SN,
Kavita .. you know that this is not a forum for idle tittle tattle or gossip….
PS.. mmmm, what are the details and any other juicy tidbits.. ?
Ps I took your advice and did by way of your favourite 2nd guru Rajneesh his meditation group ….Cloned Again… trouble is I can’t stop doing those Bollywood dance moves especially under the shower.
The biggest problem in all these robey swan song guys/gals is a version of supremacist
‘ this is better than sliced bread holier than thouisms,
or
I claim Osho and therefore, just that aspiration is enough to define me as utterly aligned with that definition of consciousness. This would be then used as a manner of permissive presumption amongst others, which works ….until fundamental questions arise . The larger sannyas picure we know about is a result of all the other little tensions borne over years of presumptions, power trips, and the unassailability of either growth merchants or conscious energy salesemen plying their trade.
Being as the nominal alternative is isolation, we tended to muddle along.
My own exception to this was using all the skills at my disposal at my own point of reckoning when I came to Ko Hsuan. I no longer had acquiescent reference points or nominal centre leaders to aspire to, who were either financially or psychologically in charge.
Similar to relationships, being in a spiritual one requires your attention
It doesn’t take that much intelligence to analyse the failings of dogmatic surrounding social norms.
It doesn’t take much to be assiduous and persistent in using determined perception and understanding for establishing the realities of your own values and working identity.
It doesn’t take a lot to give yourself a voice and rationale, coupled with an appetite for life and a libido that is generous.
When packages of becoming , such as intentional communities, therapy, meditation, lifestyle choices, collaborative exchange are on offer, it is because of our efforts and willingness. We do it because that what and who we are. We are the master then. We are the master now.
This constant externalization of the conceptual basis of our actions as governed by one sole centre which has to remain iconic to satisfy it’s attraction is both a misinterpretation of our roles and a consequent disengagement from each other ……by deferring to higher abstract powers as the sole raison d’etre of our lives. This is not Zorba at all , ..it’s a gruyere cheese full of holes into which the hapless and agenda-filled , ride rough shod towards the light.
I am not in the least bit concerned as to the conflict , opprobrium, or opposition which I have limitedly provoked in my travels. Because in my own rationale I hold dear and close that which takes both sides to be valid…. I shall try to explain….
When I declare my own version of reality and pursue it , it doesn’t depend on anyone’s agreement , when I choose to collaboratively meditate, it doesn’t depend on either the named functionary of the get together, or my own personality to establish whatever degree of collaboration we so desire. We could even dislike each other intensely and permanently, but still perform some meditation and go our separate ways.It happened all the time when living together in community, especially if the room was large enough.
If anyone thinks meditators aren’t primarily self interested then try congratulating someone on their happiness , and then leaving them to it.
”Hooray you’re enlightened…great to know you are doing so much better than me, …cheers then.”
Meditators are self interested and they want acknowledgement of it(i.e…to share) and want to buy into it..(to become empowered through love or anything else to hand.) That’s also part of our worldly natures.
What has happened is that over many many years codes of sannyas behaviour have been set up as worthy of the given relevant ‘new code’, without any consequent accountability for the whole of a community’s responses to it. Just count the phases we passed through, that were absolute at the time and definitions of ‘on’ or ‘offness’, but with no one carrying the can apart from the moment of frustration after the ranch when we held revisionist meetings, ordained for cleansing the old wood out, by Osh himself.
I personally believe Dynamic med’ was mainly a way of creating a safety valve for this. It’s a shame to see that after many years of growing up and authenticity , that personal understanding, willingness etc., is not given the credibility it naturally has. We are always wrong footed by the magico mistico meditation motivators.. oooo aahhhhhhh ooooooohhh, like children at fireworks displays…
Instead we are treated to a procession of energy ‘authorities ‘, who then have an open field to play their affiliation games, with peer group identification.
By constantly watching for trouble in the ranks , via collective purifying ordained activity, or by simplifying some facts that deeply unaware behaviour really only exists in a moribund and stagnant external society, ……..then sannyas (in my world travel experience ) will never provide for that Oasis of refreshing socializing legacy.
If it continues with some old guardisms over what and how consciousness is engaged ,without that directness that all our early sweaty groups were famous for, and which in this plasticizing of nice consciousness, turns people to Arun, or Zany Rajwash, or any countless unsatirizeable role model sellers who think sannyas centre leaders are impressive by their loaded baggage of psychology certificated approval or energy wizards.
The other groups I have ephemerally visited otherwise (advaitas etc etc) are all third rate, given their very limited remited for change, their lack of transparent indulgences, their failure to take on the world openly and provocatively.
So in some ways Arun has a point, we dearly beloved, are gathered here today to remember what might have been more than just a glorified bolt hole, filled with effetists and robe wearers singing plinky plonky songs, but it’s precisely because of having had a hierarchical value personality system that this borrowed radicalness never took off.
In the 17th century, the protestants were adamant that through being able to read and write , the common wheal would be freed of the oppression of the educated catholic priesthood which had access to knowledge and law etc etc.
A certain hunger in our own nature’s can remain unfulfilled if we don’t take the first few correct steps of the unio mystica, which isn’t that impenetrable or tricky…in fact feeling good and knowing how has been part of our nature’s since we evolved from bonobos who just shag all day and eat leaves and fruit and sleep.
Remember to KISS often
Keep it simple , stupid.
xx
prem martyn says:
>> So in some ways Arun has a point, we dearly beloved, are gathered here today to remember what might have been more than just a glorified bolt hole …
The problem is PM (which of course you don’t see it as a problem) is that you are always reaching in the same basket and getting the same fruit out. My feeling is that Swami Arun has a different basket. I really don’t know. I’ll let you know after I meet him.
Sorry I won’t be there .. as I’m going to the Joan of Arc reunion barbecue.
ha ha ha ha ha – what a load of verbose crap to rubbish both osho and arun – being a clever mind wont help you –
swami arun was one of osho`s earliest disciples – osho sent him back to nepal in the mid seventies to spread his message ~which he has done so successfully that now i hear every family in nepal has at least one member who is a sannyasin
it was not easy in the early days either when everyone was against osho ~ i think he was even jailed at one point for selling osho books
arun has shown his devotion to osho – he is a man of the heart
and he has helped many
many people who comment on sannyas news have zero respect for osho – it seems they are constantly trying to prove that they are his superiors in understanding and how they have no need of osho –
its a wonder they think they are his sannyasins ~perhaps they are part of the plot to disparage and marginalise osho and his devotees and disciples ~pretenders to be sannyasins to mislead any who come here looking for osho´s people ~~
Dhyan Raj:
many people who comment on sannyas news have zero respect for osho
SD:
You should name names, DR, and actually demonstrate that these amount to “many”.
Dhyan Raj:
perhaps they are part of the plot to disparage and marginalise osho and his devotees and disciples
SD:
Evidence again is required here, please, DR. Otherwise such claims have more than a whiff of the paranoid about them.
But really, “marginalise Osho and his devotees and disciples”? Are you kidding? Since when have they been anything other than on the ‘fringe’?
PS: Does your “respect for Osho” extend to writing his name with a capital ‘O’? Just curious….
DR has joined the fray.. hooray…
Saying that having a clever mind won’t help me, is a deeply deeply deeply insultingly deeply, comment (deeply) which has come as a complete shock to my nervous system. It might even mean that as ridiculous as it first appears, you might be right and I might be wrong.
It could be a first there for me, ….but luckily Parmartha only lets things through that are worth reading and truthful and as I have known him personally he wouldn’t let any old insult through .. it would have to be slightly true …eg he knows a possible clone is possibly not a clone given the benefit of the doubt.. and that’s good enough for me.
So with that in my burdensome clever mind, I shall give your prognosis a try….
I shall give it a try, as long as we can swap.You do the clever mind verbose rubbish and I’ll do the happy clappy agenda filled personal ambition in the name of all things Osho.. I dunno shall we agree for the next five minutes or fifty years ? I’m not familiar with associative enlightenment , you’ll have to show me how. Will I have to feel blessed all day long ?
Cheers.
prem martyn -” in my opinion had we had less of the group club fanaticism and less ambitious gibberish which Osho spawned and foisted directly via his agents, in his mad dash for eternity,”
yes martyn – “osho spawned and foisted – in his mad dash for eternity” – utter twaddle and totally misrepresenting osho – showing a complete contempt for osho –
obviously you have no idea who is osho or why devotees like arun and rajneesh love him and continue his work – for you it is ” the happy clappy agenda filled personal ambition in the name of all things Osho.”
perhaps your idea of energy transformation is limited to getting pissed in the pub – there is no love – only “cheers”
I see DR you never heard of the ranch….or why or how or when or if these things happen because of human beings.. it’s all alright now in every nook and cranny all swept away….and you’d know how to handle it if it appeared again, you know… human beings being wacky…
good good just checking you’re big long beard has wisdom in it… and isn’t just covering up some unfulfilled pipe dreamer who likes to prove how marvellous his powers of cognition and guru line following are…for us to marvel at …
and you’re selling love now is it….oh well i can still do swaps if you want.. i’ll sell the love and you do the ‘ cheers I know f’all..’
wait a minute you’ve swapped already….
hey ref Parmartha… i’ve been super invalidated.. oh well back to mortality for me then…
come and buy my lovely love, who wants a hug , buy my lovely love… one pound fish ,one pound fish….
and just in case you are wondering DR …I can have complete contempt for Osho if that’s what suits me as and when it pleases me by my own definitions…..i can give you a license for that, but it’ll cost ya…though afterwards you can drive wherever and however you want…..and still say the journey’s marvellous….
vrrrroooooommmmm
ps
i nearly forgot to stick HA HA HA in as a way of indicating an, ermm joke…
i -me- me- my – what a fool you are martyn – your me wont help you either – all me will disappear in the end – your contempt for osho harms you no one else – better get drunk and forget all about osho – if you can
Writing in such a fashion simply communicates one thing to me, DR, that you are suffering from ‘guru-itis’, a common enough condition usually contracted through spending an inordinate amount of time in the presence of a spiritual teacher (authentic or otherwise).
This invariably arises through total conviction of one’s own ‘rightness’, borrowed from the teacher’s charismatic (to the sufferer) presence and expressed through an unusually high degree of parrotting the teacher’s commonly used words and statements.
Acting comes to mind again…You’re learning your lines well!
DR .. so you accept rajneesh’s version of himself as long as its sublimated as osho this and osho that…
careful stripping of i and me creates salvation does it..? you twat…
IIIIIIIII purposefully use the first person to sniff out hIding dilettantes and authoritarians whose limited affective range and anality forces them to suck up and kick down.
Your spiritual beard is nothing but a very passive aggressive old twit, who loves to put down in the name of osho .. just like your ugly mate.. you just love the anal mirror….
Jealous indians who wouldn’t know what Osho was if he had
bit them on their tight arses… but who want to impose it their Iconic osho legacy Their deleted IIIIII version)on everyone else out of third form, subliminally scripted, love merchandising which thinks by stripping money out of the propaganda it will save your pretencious sorry asses…
oh dear DR oh dear…. I think I prefer the money version.
So many clones so little fun…
As Carmen Miranda used to sing about fruit cases… IIIII like you very much.. I I I I I think you’re grand…
Everybody in the house say.. Ayeee Ayee AyE
ha ha ha ha – clever mind me is fast losing his cool and become abusive – the egotic nightmare is brought into plain view – have another pint – “cheers”
DR is yet again that same type, who whilst denying anyone else’s Osho construct and assimilation and experience , for their own purposes in their own integrated way,.. instead attempts to ideologically sabotage by the very same thing that he denies and decries. Self created Osho constructs…. which is part and parcel of anything outside of you that you cling to.
That means…..
Rajwash has created an Osho in his own image, but because it serves DR’s undeveloped skills and reflects his own latent confusion,
then
, he needs to justify , recreate himself by making the world in his own image, but without even admitting to it…or noticing the I reject you but you must accept me dichotomy he lives in.
, now claiming the highest POWER (Osho association) to run his own little numbers. Because of course DR looks like the zany crazy Indian he then looks like the role, so that we all get led into thinking he has only our best intentions to heart and none of his own…
Bur scratch below the surface and his amorphous indian identity, born of Indian collective identity social trauma, abuse ,comes out in his unlived competitive unconscious forms.
Indians have this history of a polymorphous identity that they are born into. So ‘denial of self’ philosophy a la Gandhi fits well with a society that has , as I’ve said before few markers for psychological insight. Unlike Osho. Which is why they are jealous of him.
DR I don’t know where you’ve been for years but your language interactions are so utterly undeveloped in terms of self reflective admissions that no-one will think of you as credible unless they are as distorted as you and your mate and those Klingons, who have got a lot of bed biscuits in annoying places.
oh staying cool is definitive now…? wow DR its all coming out HA HA HA…
how’s the passive indian aggressive doing with the insults these days ? Smoke the ganja spliff baba…
you have no idea where I drink… certainly not at your font of insulting stupidity beardyboy.
Game over.
ha ha ha ha ha – my god martyn – did you swallow a dictonary – all these clever words simply make you look stupid
thanks for informing me of my ” amorphous indian identity” ha ha ha ha – and my history of polymorphous indian identity – ha ha ha ha ha ha
and my passive indan agression – ha ha ha ha ha ha
well i never – i live and learn eh
i was thinking to stop bothering to comment here – but as you say “game over” i am tempted to continue to irritate you for some longer time – ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
prem martyn says:
>> Indians have this history of a polymorphous identity that they are born into.
You nearly had me with that one, white man. In the wild the white ones are sick.
swami satyam dhyanraj says:
>> ha ha ha ha ha – my god martyn – did you swallow a dictonary – all these clever words simply make you look stupid.
I already warned him about that. The only consolation is that we know he uses the same power of critique on himself. The secret is not to read him. Then he comes across really nice.
The mistake you’re making, I think, DR, is to take criticisms of and distate for Swami R as somehow anti-Osho. They’re no such thing, they’re simply anti-Swami R.
He might well be offering and/or planning otherwise unobtainable facilities and experience for many, but that doesn’t necessarily place an ‘obligation’ on anyone else to regard him as some sort of utterly authentic ‘channel’ for Osho (or ‘Osho’s Vision’ – whatever that might be).
Furthermore, I wonder whether you realise how you’ve contradicted yourself:
Last week, you asserted that you had no right to change me or my views, to try to make me come around to accept your version of Swami R. (If that’s true for me then it’s surely true for all, isn’t it?).
But you also declared that all true (‘worth their salt’) sannyasins should recognise him as the ‘real deal’, the one to carry on Osho’s work with the utmost authenticity.
That’s the voice of a deluded missionary, one who’s found something/someone that suits him and then imagines it/he ‘should’ suit everyone – and anyone who disagrees has to be an ignorant fool, a complacent arsehole or a dastardly enemy.
Swami R is simply not my cup of Indian tea, thanks. And you know why.
do you remember when Arun,Rajneesh and Veeresh held a secret meeting to decide upon the future of sannyas?
V. hey man,good to meet you.i love this country and the chicks here are wow!
A. in fact, our commune is completely pure vegetarian
V. hey whats that cool red stuff on your forehead?
A. that is holy ash,vibhuti
V. booty?hey man,now your talking,man,i love that stuff.whats the local talent like round here?I was up at papajis place a while back I did a group called “fucknow in lucknow”,maybe I should do one here called
“power and sex, poke her hara in pokhara”? then I`m off to do another group in Bangkok called ba….
V. er ,yes,will you be following the insights of freud,reich,jung, adler and other psychologists of the west of which the common man is not aware?
V. uh,yeah,right.so you`re a kind of guru round here,and this is your bodhisattva gang,right?
A .I am just teaching the disciples how to live the right life..sitting quietly and becoming free of the wheel of karma
V. wow man,how do you do that shit?i have to get up smoke a doobie ,pour myself a beer,have a date,watch a movie…
A. are you enjoying kazantzakis,herman hesse,dostoyevesky,van gogh,van dyck,van morrison,joan of arc and other avatars of the western high culture?
V yeah man,avatar,that was a cool movie.the special effects were far out…and van damme ,he`s closest to cool,man,yeah i love that guy…and joan of arc,yeah,i think I remember her,slim French chick we had jumping up and down in a basque and a rabbit suit during an orgy in the boozeria…man she was hot…ooh la la….
A. in fact,the disciples here are very devoted and are avoiding the worldly desires…
V. yeah right,…(to be-robed beauty)hey baby…lookin` good… you`re a rolls royce pretending to be a tata nano..what you doin` tonite? i just got some temple balls in katmandhu and I need to blow them with someone tonite,and …
A. that is my wife..
V. oh er hey man,take a deep breath,just let go of that stuff,here I`ll show you how to have a good hug…
(hugs arun)
hey who`s this guy?(enter swami Rajneesh)
R. ….the 21 baboons in pune have no idea who they are dealing with,these alcoholic rapist therapriests must be stopped before they destroy our masters vision with their unconsciousness…
V. hey man,you look kind of familiar..
R. therapriest baboons are scared of dying so I spit on their baboon graves they are not aware of the no-mind which is not a teaching but in the presence of the master…
V. have you seen this guy?i`m sure I`ve seen him somewhere before.
R. there is only this moment.the rotten religions are a fiction,red-bottomed baboons are destroying oshos work,but they will fail utterly.all sannyasins have nowhere to go but my commune.you want buy rolex?
V. wow,that looks like one of oshos watches… juicy,man….
A ah yes,i wish I could have been as unattached to my old bicycle as osho was to his Rolexes,he was a true sage and very scientific,too…
R . the rotten filthy alcoholic baboons were beating me,for what?because I am telling the truth…you want rolex?only $100,special price from a special person..
V. wow,man,thats a good deal,now where`s my wallet….
R. they say I am an imitator,but like my watches,i am the real deal, but what would they know? they are the unconscious masses and retarded pygmies speaking in the yellow press like cunning politicians and idiots… the red-bottomed baboons think they have a have a redder bottom than me ,ha! they will come to see the truth! Shakti,shakti,where are you?…..ugh…nnng… ugh (he collapses on the floor)
V. he doesn’t look very healthy,should we call a doctor?
A. no, it is simply his karma.i will get some sudras to take him to the burning ghats.
V.wow,that sounds like one cool venue.is that something like “the immortality club”with a bit of all night hoochie-coochie and juicy samba?
A. er,maybe..um..anyway,it is time for evening puja…
V. hey man,now you`re beginning to talk sense…mines a double…on the rocks,man…….
Most enjoyable. Funny and hip.
Frank…. has thankfully returned to his old form….
And KV everyone …here comes a house prefect with a copy of the latest SN, chortling loudly to himself. He’s chortling so much , he looks even happier than when he’s meditating.
Quick, pretend we are going in and start dancing, if he asks any questions.
Quite often, Masters and Massiahs not in the body are like snakes in the life of snake charmer. First act of follower turned priest is to take the poison away and then to find the ways to spread the dance!
“three men in an osho vision”
by frank k Jerome.
(cont…)
A. so how did you enjoy the puja?
V. yeah it was cool,man,there`s certainly some talent in this place,btw.who was that guy with the uniform ?
A. ah,that was chief inspector hari badmash.minister of security
V. wow,dirty harry,cool,yeah I really dug that little ritual you did..
A what do you mean?
V you know,when the disciples were singing the mantras, you slipped him a thick brown envelope.i really love these old-fashioned ethnic traditional rituals,they`re a blast.. man..
A. er yes,well,we have our age old traditions its true…
V. hey,what happened to that dude who went down to that burning cats place,that sounded awesome..
A. you mean swami rajneesh?
V, rajneesh?wow,man that’s amazing I knew he reminded me of someone,wow,he looks just like osho,thats an amazing synchronicity.
A. ah,so you are conversant with some of the scientific ideas of the west of which the common man knows little,like jung ,wilhelm reich,larry adler and archimedes?
V. oh yeah,reichs amazing.he said if you have sex all the time,you cant have any neuroses or any problems,we teach that in the boozeria..and I like to talk the talk walk the walk and pork the pork,y`know what I mean?
A.er,yes..and what of jung and synchronicity,that is also an amazing scientific discovery,what do you know about that?
V. er synchromicity,um yeah well its like this:for example.when the pilgrim fathers set out for America they set sail in England from plymouth and when they arrived in the states,they arrived in …plymouth…that`s synchronicity,man..
A. that is amazing! the western scientific mind of newton,galileo ,james watt and mr.kipling,is incredible…
V. hey, here comes rajneesh now,whassup ,man?
A. the rapist baboons tried to kill me .they are trying to silence me by using black magic,but they have not even read my book “rants of a misfit bozo”
so what can they know,they are anti-osho and the alcoholic therapriests have not tasted the silence of the enlightened one whose very fragrance is fragile and innocent like a rose but also a hammer on the rock of ……
V. yeah,man.hey….(oriental cutie walks past)halloooooo…yahoo! ,is that a thai stick in my pocket or am I pleased to see you? I`m feelin pretty fruity myself,hey fancy a date?your energy is beautiful.all this talk about james watt is getting me all steamed up and…
A. that is my wife.again! what do you think this is,the ashram of a sex-guru?
V. well,er,man,actually,yeah,you know..hey don’t get so uptight with your jealousy trips,come to the humaniversity I`ll put you in the hot seat, on the tourist program we can work out some of your repressions..
R. alcoholic therapriest women were speaking against me and then they died,so I spit on her grave the bitch from miasto..
V. who`s that?
R the female baboon,sudha..
V. fuck you man,thats my wife!(heatbutts Rajneesh)
A. oh my god calm down,this is a peaceful commune,i promised inspector badmash no problems..
R. alcoholic therapriest rapist baboon is attacking me…
V.and that fuckin rolex doesn’t work either,asshole(headbutts him again)..
A. goodness gracious me,maybe mr.kipling was right,after all…….
frank says:
“three men in an osho vision”
To my reckoning there is a 4th Apostle in the mix. His name begins wit J and ends in ..sh as in silence. He might be invisible but his silence is everywhere.
Don’t mention Osho
No Osho pictures
No Osho
Shhh …
I am nobody
Nothing
Lost
Dhyanraj declares, ‘swami arun was one of Osho`s earliest disciples.’
Is that supposed to mean something? Was this because they were both patrons of Dipti’s milk shake bar in Bombay’s Collaba or what?
Just had a skype conversation with a friend who visited Arun’s place up in Nepal. Told me about Osho’ ashes and a seated statue of the man himself. And what about Arun? I asked.
He’s another one of these wankers trying to pass himself off as an enlightened one, doing Osho’s work and all that shite, was my friend’s answer.
shite is what he is and shite is what he sees – thats why he s your mate lokesh two shites together eh – have a pint with clever mind me and forget all about osho
And applying the same ineffable logic to yourself, DR, produces what…?
you want logic satyadeva ? – you know i can see why rajneesh was rough with you some years ago here on sannyas news – a group of guys who only understand abuse and dont know nothing – misunderstanding everything – and rajneesh is not one to hold back when he is being abused – he gives it all back and magnified
lokesh is calling arun “a wanker” and “shite” – arun is someone who has dedicated his life to osho and helped very many people – he has a heart –
here there are only minds who seek to prove their cleverness – have you helped anyone with all your clever cynicism satyadeva ? – its easy to put people down in order to make yourself look superior in your own eyes isnt it – but what is the point finally ? neither you believe in your superiority nor does anyone else – its just a bad dream really isnt it
Dhyan Raj, you’re resorting to gratuitous nonsense while failing to respond to the points I’ve made. You don’t seem able to respond adequately, so you label what I say as “clever cynicism”.
It’s not a question of feeling “superior”, I’ve just presented my views, but clearly you’re unable to stomach them, taking them as personal insults. So for me, you’re a bit of a ‘dreamer’ yourself, mate.
On here, I assure you Rajneesh deserved all he got. But again, you wouldn’t want to believe anything like that, would you?
your “views” are simply ignorance speaking satyadeva – and your points have been responded to – your silly idea that rajneesh is a “ludicrous impersonation of a dead man” was responded to by osho in a long quote posted by mini at the top of the other thread – but you do not understand osho obviously or maybe you think he is lying to you – you know best eh
- theres no need for me to believe what rajneesh “got” from you on here years ago – i read it all at that time and enjoyed – it still hurts you doesnt it ? what is your problem ? do you think a buddha must pretend to be a saint like dalai lama (who is not a buddha or enlightened ) – too holy to engage in foolery with the likes of you and your mates?
Dhyan Raj:
but you do not understand osho obviously or maybe you think he is lying to you – you know best eh
SD:
Yes, Dhyan Raj, I certainly do trust myself to know what’s best for me, I’m relieved to say.
And btw, you yourself come across as yet another know-it-all ‘priest’, obsessively driven to convince all and sundry of the rightness of your cause. When you yourself in fact show little or no evidence of knowing anything much except what you’re copying from your current teacher.
In short, from present evidence you’re rather a poor example of a Swami R ‘follower’, ‘disciple’, ‘or ‘devotee’. All you’re doing is, like Swami R himself, ‘shooting yourself (and him) in the foot’.
As I’ve suggested earlier today, why don’t you change tack and describe how your life has changed (if it has) by your association with Swami R? Why not detail his actual teachings, methods (if he has any except ‘dancing’). Why not tell us what he’s got that other Masters, including Osho, haven’t?
(PS: How come you insist on disrespecting Osho by not capitalising the O in his name?!)
Dhyan Raj:
- theres no need for me to believe what rajneesh “got” from you on here years ago – i read it all at that time and enjoyed – it still hurts you doesnt it ?
SD:
What I “got” from the ‘dialogues’ with Swami R was a confirmation of my already-existing conviction that the man was someone who I’d want nothing to do with,; that – whatever he might or might not have ‘realised’ spiritually – for me he held no attraction whatsoever, in fact quite the reverse was (and is) the case.
To claim I was and remain “hurt” by arguing with him on here is just another laughable piece of emotional wish-fulfilment on your part. He came across as a prize arsehole, a little shit, and he was treated as such. If he imagines that’s the ‘spiritual way’ to win friends and influence people then he’s just a damn fool, unqualified for the self-chosen job he’s taken on. (Mind you, if he really doesn’t care about such things then he’s succeeded).
You merely flaunt your immaturity by wanting to pounce upon such a response and declare me (and others of a similar persuasion) ‘ignorant’, ‘anti-Osho’, and worse.
(PS: And now you’re also disrespecting Swami R by leaving out the capital R of his name. What’s going on – getting too emotionally hyper or something?!)
Dhyan Raj:
what is your problem ? do you think a buddha must pretend to be a saint like dalai lama (who is not a buddha or enlightened ) – too holy to engage in foolery with the likes of you and your mates?
SD:
I have no such idealised version in mind, DR, I’ve seen through that one, thanks. No, I simply find your Swami R an unattractive sort of guy, not someone I’d want to work (or play) with, thanks very much.
You like to call him a “buddha” – well, there could be plenty of idealisation in that, plenty of wish-fulfilling fantasy, esp from a certain kind of westerner desperate for ‘a touch of Eastern magic’…
But what, pray, are the qualifications for being a “buddha”, in your view, DR?
Helping people ? Where’s the hospital then … or the water irrigation project, or the social housing or the literacy projects or the… just a minute its about feeling better about yourself mainly isn’t it….that and saying Jesus I mean Rajneesh or Arun every two words…. and then telling everybody how they offer Osho stripped of his ability to correspond and communicate on every subject under the sun, but hey that’s just the mind isn’t it…….Maybe DR and OR just want everyone else to shut up….. hey lets try silence…. I’ve got a multipass for the Meher Baba Communication Convention…. anyone wanna come…?
Confronted by Rajneesh on a blog… whhoooo scary….anyone still recovering ?
Dear Dhyanraj, I rarely drink alcohol, but thanks all the same.
PS. Perhaps you did’t see my earlier question so I’ll repeat it here.
Dhyanraj, did you ever have a chat with Osho on his back porch?
I’m curious if you are new to the game, as you are obviously taken in by mumbo-jumbo that someone who spent time around Osho would possibly not find easy to digest. There are, of course, exceptions. Perhaps you are one of those. Arun spent time around Osho and look what became of him.
okay lokesh – when i arrived to poona in 1981 what i think you are calling the back porch was known as chuang tsu – i did no chatting with osho – he was the one who talked as he gave me sannyas there
- yes i have seen and been with osho during that time , on the ranch, in the european communes , back in poona again those last few years he was with us in the body –
there is no mumbo jumbo lokesh – only ignorance and misunderstanding from you and the others of what is – you dont know rajneesh – you dont know arun either – yet you feel you must judge them
i have spent time around osho – i met rajneesh as a young rajnish when osho was still in the body – and met him again three years ago and spent my time around him also – happy to see him doing his work – osho’s work –
and i was there and knew well osho had announced to us all in poona that rajneesh was someone who we could all learn from how to be a sannyasin –
why should i imagine osho was lying about this? and being with rajneesh i could well see with my own senses the truth of this no need to believe osho – i know he is right
i know its foolish to continue commenting here – its obvious that people are determined to disrespect osho and put themselves above him – loving their own ignorance
but someone who knows should at least try to put the record right – not for you lokesh but for those who may be reading these words whose minds are not already fixed against osho and his disciples and devotees
Dhyan Raj:
i know its foolish to continue commenting here – its obvious that people are determined to disrespect osho and put themselves above him – loving their own ignorance
SD:
This is sheer nonsense about ‘disrespecting Osho’. Osho said many things about many people, often very different sorts of things, and to take that one statement and say it therefore holds good for all time is just, well, rather childish.
In any case, even if it were truly Osho’s final and definitive view, it wouldn’t follow that Swami R would then be authorised to become his ‘successor’, and all that that would imply.
Dhyan Raj:
but someone who knows should at least try to put the record right – not for you lokesh but for those who may be reading these words whose minds are not already fixed against osho and his disciples and devotees
SD:
So anyone who doesn’t like Swami R, or is unimpressed by him, or who knows he’s just not for him/her (and especially has the ‘nerve’ to say so publically) is “against Osho and his disciples and devotees”?
That’s fundamentalist bullshine, Dhyan Raj. Trouble is, it’s an approach that has characterised Swami R himself, so it’s little wonder he’s attracted such negative, even venomous respoonses.
‘My religion is the only true religion’…’My teacher is the only true teacher’…’My version of this Master is the ‘real’ one, yours is rubbish’…etc. etc. etc. Total waste of time and energy, very destructive.
You’d be better off simply writing in detail about how you’ve benefitted from being around the guy, what exactly he’s teaching and what methods he advocates – and listening carefully to those who have their reasons to be very sceptical, angry even, or simply uninterested.
And don’t you recall Osho saying: “I bless all ways of seeking, all methods, all paths” (not an exact quote, but near enough).
That would include, by the way, the freedom to choose not to bother with a teacher, method or ‘path’, would it not – without being labelled a ‘pariah’ or an ‘enemy’?
yes you are free satyadeva – did you imagine someone was trying to imprison you – ha ha ha – dont bother eh – certainly your way is none of my business – but your slanders against rajneesh are my business – i wont sit by and allow it without saying what i know
Your “slanders” are simply my (not to mention others’) experience of the man, DR.
You’re unable to accept that for many, his self-presentation has been an utter ‘PR disaster’. And he’s done it himself, ‘shot himself in the foot’, as I’ve repeatedly said here.
You want to deny this and tell me that it’s all due to my ‘ignorance’ etc., it’s all my ‘projection’.
Typical devotee bullshine, not accepting the possibility of the object of devotion being, er, plenty less than ‘perfect’.
If you find that offensive, tough, it’s your problem, not mine.
DR you have to understand ,baba, that your use of language is disrespectful.
You do not own anyone’s version of becoming, whether you like it or them or not. And you do not define what or how that individual responds to oshoness in themselves by schoolboy external markers of what you call respect, which as soon as it leaves your own experience is of no use for any one else. You can use that language to define your territory, but no one else’s. This has nothing to do with sanctity and everything to do with perception, relevance, context and rapport, or love as relevance.
The moment any role model is referred to ,brings in language of association and identity, territory which you seem to have ignored as have many others in defining what it means to co-experience.
I dread to think what shagging means to you.. do you keep insisting .. ‘I was good wasn’t I’, to any haplerss partner ?
And if you think your libido isn’t involved in these will to power games and that we all live in the untainted absolute, then you have missed a big learning curve of correspondent fellowship in sannyas.
I wouldnt want your reality even it was the most wonderful sliced bread ever, I just don’t like yours or or your unfortunately bed ridden mate’s either , and if that includes rejecting any associative privilege benignly conferred historically upon your mate by Osho, that’s their story, not mine.
If it suits you to feel that is rejectionist.. then I am very happy to reject anything or everything you and your Osho represent , for my own purposes.
That my dear is unassailable and mutually empowering, unlike your version ,which isn’t. Wherever whoever and whenever you have been or done whatever you or I have done.. this is not a merit class. It’s always now and me.
DR you yourself practise that exclusion which if you owned it, would become mutual, ie.
we would be the same in our difference,
but you won’t offer that and still ask for permission to believe what you want to believe, and get upset with others who don’t want to play by YOUR version of reality.
i myself learnt a long time ago that having something to offer is great in itself…it doesn’t need agreement….even on here on SN I’m very cautious in creating agreements, because then life would be predictable….and thats how I try to live domestically too….offering things up for examination, confrontation and resolution but not agreement or even the same approach, unless we agree of course.
That was a real broadside. Time for some grapeshot!
ooh – sorry clever mind me – i wouldnt dream of owning someone elses version of becoming – ha ha ha ha – what good would owning such rubbish do me ?
neither do i ask you for permission for any belief in any reality – ha ha ha ha ha
Oshopirates, look out on on the port bow….splice the mainbrace…
oh look there’s a Roger-neesh.. but he doesn’t look too jolly….
”and the ship’s name Cap’n that be a bad omen ..
’tis the Right Royal Palaver…. doesn’t that mean ‘Complete Speaking Mess’ Cap’n ? ”
Aye Jim that be right, she be the fleet’s intermediary,convertin’ the natives tae God an all…..
Shiverr me timbers Cap’n…
”Hoist the Jolly Jolly Roger, we’re goin in…..Oshopirates ahoy….”
Arrr…keel haul the lubber. That’ll get the bilge out of his brain…what’s left of it. Break out a double ration of rum and hand out a gold dubloon tae each an every man serving on the good ship Quivering Thigh…arrrrr! Lomg live Cap¡n Pissgums!
aye…
`twas on the good ship sannyas….
my god, you should have seen us….
etc….
Lokesh says:
>> He’s another one of these wankers trying to pass himself off as an enlightened one, doing Osho’s work and all that shite, was my friend’s answer.
I decided (a couple of week’s ago) that sannyasins that have reached 70 can call themselves enlightened. What does it matter? It’s not as if they can do much about it after that. Hehe. In ten years, I am coming after you lot, if you are still alive.
OSHO’S WORK IS… TO DISSEMINATE OSHO
The one’s who are doing it get a buzz out of doing it and the one’s who are not doing it, are doing something else. I concluded a while back that there isn’t much dissemination going round here but who cares? I’ve had some of the best laughs here (the last few months) than anywhere else on or off the web. Sometimes I try to imagine the poor sods who are coming to SN to understand about sannyas …
If anybody is new here … this is what it’s like. This is how it has always been like. If you can’t take the heat, stay out of the fire.
One thing I will say about Swami Arun. He is always wearing a mala.
BV I am enjoying your comments just now. Keep em coming.
“In the world full with strangers, I have few friends who just think like me.”
I think it fits with both, Lokesh and Dhyanraj.
“In the world full with strangers, I have few friends who just think like me.” I think that one is more suited to someone like yourself, Shantam. Your thinking is definately warp factor nine and I for one am relieved that there exist so few who think like you.
Unlike our current king clown, Dhyanraj, you, Shantam, have a sense of humour. Warped it may be but I have to admit that I find you occasionally amusing. Dhyanraj is simply boring. He is so obviously stuck in a mind-set, but won’t wake up to it until he comes to realize it himself. No point in shouting as he is no doubt completely deaf.
Anti abortion and pro abortion activists are fighting at sannyasnews…
Sorry, I wanted to write, Anti Rajneesh and pro Rajneesh activists are fighting at sannyasnews..
Great!
I have nothing else to do therefore I am doing Osho´s work!
Mama Mia, people want to feed lion!
Dhyanraj declares, ‘and i was there and knew well osho had announced to us all in poona that rajneesh was someone who we could all learn from how to be a sannyasin –
why should i imagine osho was lying about this?’
I find it hard to believe and it strikes me that Osho might have been joking. Then again he might have been experiencing a funny turn and said this when high on nitrous. I hold nothing personal against Mr Rajneesh. Why should I? I did not take it as offensive that he offered to sell me a fake Rolez in LA. We all have our ways of making a living. If he likes to be spanked wth a hair brush that is his business. To me he appears as an unattractive person and the only thing I think I can learn from him is that I would not wish to emulate him in any way. I spent seven years in Poona One and never saw Mr Rajneesh once in all that time. Do you suppose that means Mr Rajneesh was having secret meetings with Osho? In his dreams perhaps. I also never heard Osho mention Mr Rajneesh, Taking into account how special you believe him to be I find that a wee bit strange.
I really don’t care about any of that. If you want to be a disciple of Mr Rajneesh go right ahead. If being with him inspires you to go in that is good. Judging by your comments you could cetainly do with it, You project all kinds of things on people who comment on this site, all along with no apparent awareness that what you are seeing in people is simply a projection. Nothing new or interesring in there. Nearly everyone on the planet is busy with that.
You go on to say, ‘I know its foolish to continue commenting here’. If you know it is foolish why do it then? Nobody will miss you if you stop. To most of the regulars you appear as just anoter misguided fool on a mission to prove you are right, while continuing to practice the cranium in anus asana. Not only that you display almost a complete lack in the sense of humour. Not a good sign. A serious sannyasin? Where did it all go wrong?
what happened lokesh – you left osho after poona one ? – rajneesh was too young to be there at that time – he was around in poona two – osho spoke of rajneesh twice to my certain knowledge – you were not there to hear it it seems
why spread lies about being sold fake rolexes? is that a projection from you ? – and it seems you dont want to read fully – i answered your question about why i comment here – not for you and your fellow band of ignorant misinformed and misinforming regulars but to counter your falsities with truth
you didnt hear osho mention rajneesh lokesh – because it seems you werent there at the time – the fact is rajneesh (as osho was called then) mentioned swam rajneesh twice in two public announcements in buddha hall in 1989 i think the year was – i was there and know this to be true
of course if osho says something that goes against your prejudiced mind obviously he was you say joking or stoned – the truth is you dont care what osho said – you want to hang onto your ridiculous ideas at all costs and to hell with osho – just tell some lies about rajneesh to prop yourself up eh
you didnt see rajneesh in seven years in poona one because he was only there briefly at the end of this period at the young age of 19 i think – i myself met him in beginning of poona two – everyone in the ashram noticed him in those years – i conclude you werent in the ashram in those days –
as i said before – ignorant, misinformed and misinforming others – thats you lokesh and your stupid pretending to be clever mates – why should i entertain you with humour ?
Dhyanraj says, ‘i conclude you werent in the ashram in those days ‘. Very good, Watson, Your deduction is correct. By that time I’d woken up to the fact that the rot had set in. The fire of rebellion that had originally attracted me to the sannyas movement had been reduced to a flicker and the idiots had moved in en masse.
You go on to say, ‘the truth is you dont care what osho said.’ Yes, in a way you are right again. I rarely read anything by Osho and never watch his vids. He was always more of an energetic phenomena for me. In the early days I sometimes visited him two or thee times a week. By the time Poona One folded Osho had become a white speck in the distance. The personal guidance I once received was no longer available. It wasn’t a problem, as I’d learned what I needed to learn and realized it was time to move on and I did.
@DR
Osho was known as Osho Rajneesh for a time in 1989.
Books have been published in the name of Osho Rajneesh who is now known as Osho.
He does refer to Osho Rajneesh during 1989
He’s talking about himself.
That sounds more like it.
swami rajneesh was known as swami rajnish then swami rajneesh in the time osho sent out messages to the commune about him – osho wasnt talking about himself – he was talking about swami rajneesh and everyone there knew it
@DR.
I’ve done a thorough search of the data base and can find nothing in any 1989 discourses, or any other discourses for that matter, that could be construed as referring to Osho Rajneesh the Osho disciple, so could you be as specific as possible about Oshos words regarding him, (As you recall. ) and I’ll be able to find the remarks, and give you the book and discourse number references.
hello arpana – good to hear about your research efforts
why you are looking for references to osho rajneesh the osho disciple i dont know – swami rajneesh was known in 1989 as swami rajnish then osho changed his name to swami rajneesh
neither will you find swami rajneesh in any book with a discourse number reference – as osho did not speak of him in discourse –
the messages he sent us about rajneesh were announced to the commune outside of discourse – the first message as i recall i heard about on the day on the pathway outside of buddha hall – osho sent the message that he had been getting many letters of complaint about swami rajnish – that he was imitating osho –
(due to his vipassana style of slow walking through the ashram which for some reason seemed to upset a lot of people then as it still does today) –
osho had also been asked by many to tell rajnish to change his name (as this also upset them as osho was known as rajneesh at that time and they somehow thought it was disrepectful to rajneesh for rajnish to have a similar name – i think that was the logic for complaint)
osho (rajneesh) said “yes rajnish should change his name – he should spell it with ee”
some days or a week later i think (it was 24 years ago) osho sent a message to be read out in buddha hall at the time of sannyas taking ceremony – rajneesh was there and osho’s message was read to him and all the buddha hall by zareen
i dont remember the exact form of the words of the message after so long a time – yet i remember the key points osho made -
he told us that swami rajneesh was one of very few sannyasins who had understood him – that his way of being a sannyasin was right – that he was the “model sannyasin” of the ashram – and that we could all learn from him how to be a sannyasin –
there is an ashram photographer photo of the occasion of rajneesh sitting there hearing this and laughing – yet i dont know where you can find this statement of osho in print – i used to work as designer of rajneesh times in those days but i dont remember if we ever printed these messages from osho about rajneesh or not and i dont have any access to any archive that may still exist of rajneesh times from 1989
Dhyanraj, one thing I might mention in relation to what you are saying is the following.
I once had a friend called Ram in Poona One. He was a gentle spirit and one sunny morning in discourse Osho declared Ram to be enlightened. For a couple of weeks a whole pile of sannyasins, myself included, went round to Ram’s room and sat around at his enlightened feet. The person most puzzled by this development was Ram. It took about a month to realize there was no truth in what Osho said. Ram was not enlightened and went on to live a life of obscurity. To this day I’ve no idea why Osho said this. I am certain it was a bit of bullshit. It was also a good exercise in learning to think for yourself and question all authority. Osho sometimes said things, for whatever reason, that were untrue. You might do well to heed this little snippet of info.
From a distance Mr Rajneesh looks like a twat. Maybe he is alright. I don’t know and I’m not curious enough to find out. All reports I’ve heard about the man from people whose opinions I trust come across as negative. The word I’ve repeatedly heard in descriptions of the man is vain. Nuff said.
Dhyanraj enquires, ‘why should i entertain you with humour ?’
It is not so much a question of entertainment but rather your lack of humour indicates that your ego is completely tied in to your stance. One of Osho’s best devices was a non-serious approach to life. Try saying something funny. You do such a putdown here but you could learn a few new tricks from some of the other posters in regards how to tell a good joke. A few years down the line you might recall this time and cringe at the memory of how serious you were taking yourself. Not exactly the life and soul of the party, now are you?
yes lokesh – you say you didnt need osho anymore after poona one – and i hear you went to papaji for more personal guidance that befitted a person such as yourself who may feel neglected by a white speck in the distance – after all with papaji you could become enlightened and the equal of osho easily – now osho is not your master
since you have moved on and have been an ex osho sannyasin for 32 years now – with what face are you posting as a pundit here in sannyas news and putting down osho’s people?
I’m not putting down any particular group, just self righteous fools like you,Dhyanraj. I’m surprised that Shantam is taking this so lightly. You are obviously out to steal the fool’s crown. Dhyanraj, you are performing a small miracle here at SN. Your comments are so dumb they are making dear Shantam’s look positively intelligent.
What do you mean with out to steal the fools crown?You mean your new master puppitji?
At point there was too much resentment in the ashram towards swami rajnish (and his ministry of silly walks) and when Osho was told about it, Osho said to leave him alone and perhaps learn from him. All Osho was doing was defusing a situation that swami rajnish created and what he meant was … learn not to do silly walking.
how nice to to see that someone understands what osho actually meant – as obviously he couldnt have meant what he said now could he – that would fly in the face of the combined wisdom of the ex sannyasin regular contributers to sannyas news wouldnt it ?
if as you say osho meant all along to say learn not to do silly walking – which in fact was slow walking – with what face could he say this when osho himself walked in a similar slow way?
Dhyan RAJ:
if as you say osho meant all along to say learn not to do silly walking – which in fact was slow walking – with what face could he say this when osho himself walked in a similar slow way
SD:
Lighten up, DR, for Christ’s sake.
(PS: It’s Osho, not osho, you disrespectful (o)s(h)o ‘n’ (o)s(h)o!)
Now the debate has moved on to another, altogether more profound level…
Dhyan Raj:
if as you say osho meant all along to say learn not to do silly walking – which in fact was slow walking – with what face could he say this when osho himself walked in a similar slow way?
SD:
If, as I suspect, there’s no video recording of Swami R’s ‘slow (or silly?) walk, then may I suggest that anyone who actually observed this important phenomenon to get in touch asap and describe it so that we finally know the truth.
To simplify this, I propose a percentage system, whereby ‘The Walk’ is to be assessed on a sliding scale, ie 100% ‘Silly’/ 0% ‘Slow’, at intervals of 10%, eg 40% ‘Silly’, 60% ‘Slow’, down to 0% ‘Silly’ 100% ‘Slow’.
After all, it’s conceivable, perhaps even probable, that ‘The Walk’ was both ‘Silly’ and ‘Slow’…
All reading this should immediately inform anyone they know who might have witnessed ‘The Walk’ so as many votes as possible can be cast.
All assessments to be sent to SN, via this forum, under this very topic.
Hopefully – and I’m optimistic about this – we’ll finally be able to make significant progress with this current manifestation of the age-old conundrum:
“Is he a ‘Saviour’ or just a Very Silly Wa*ker?”
i should think its obvious to anyone reading your comment satyadeva that you are the “very silly w*nker”
here is a video of rajneesh walking – its from later days but the same way he walked in poona two when osho sent his message about him as i observed on many occasions
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My Gawd, you really couldn’t make it up, could you?!
This is truly worthy of ‘The Life of Brian’…
If you can’t see the absurdity of it all, Dhyan Raj, then there’s really no hope left.
thanks for the link.
love it.
but I prefer the one when hes walking the inmates through the grounds of a Lithuanian electro-shock hospital.
that`s a corker!
here`s a good one too…
i think there might be a cameo by DR on this one…
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If P and D keep inviting out-patients from the Pune Mental Sanatorium to address our well educated and highly qualified board of writers , then if you can’t beat them join ‘em…
Watch from 1.27 on and listen for the words the Lord has given me, subtly encoded in the video..
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thanks frank very nice – here’s a rare video i found – young rajneesh moving from around the poona two days
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yes martyn -ha ha ha – i discovered i also have a gift for praying in tongues as anita calls it -in chuang tzu we used to do it when it was called no mind medtation – it is gibberish another name for it – sufi master jabbars technique for clearing the mind of all its rubbish – you could have a go yourself – since clearly you have a lot of clever me mind to get rid of
what hope are you looking for then satyadeva?Another guru who teaches you how to walk and finally reach enlightenment?:-)
Perhaps you’re gazing at the mirror, atikarmo?
“osho had announced to us all in poona that rajneesh was someone who we could all learn from how to be a sannyasin……”
Seems like Dhyanraj and Amrito has one thing in common. Both have heard those things from Osho, which nobody else has ever heard!
shantam – it was not some secret thing that only i heard him say by any means – the whole buddha hall full of sannyasins attending sannyas celebration heard what osho had to say about rajneesh – and the news was quickly spread around the rest of the ashram – osho didnt make a habit of sendng messages out about individual sannyasins in that way – it was a unique event for him to do so i think
That is called audio hallucinations. Schizophrenics are prone to that.
yes – clearly the whole buddha hall was full of schizophrenics eh – hearing things that werent spoken by zareen reading osho’s message –
of course you can invent any story you want to lokesh – its far easier to make up lies than to accept a truth that you dont like isnt it ?
I dare sannyas news to post a blank blog for two weeks, and see if we then argue about our version of the silence.
love it….
prem martyn says:
>>I dare sannyas news to post a blank blog for two weeks, and see if we then argue about our version of the silence.
love it….
My silence is bigger than yours!
No it isn’t.
at least your mouth is!
why the hell does DR secretly read this blog for over three-four years when he hates everything it stands for and the people in it…..
still when I go to bed I secretly start dancing to the thunderbirds theme tune…we all have our little secrets….
Ps …that osho, whaat a c…………..
Thunderbirds are go!
Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons.. you couln’t make it up….
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ha ha ha ha ha – how witty you are clever mind me what would osho and the sannyas communty do without you ? and how clever to call osho a c…
you are inventing falsities again by saying i have been reading your blogs for three four years – the only time i read them was when rajneesh was commenting three years ago or so – he was very interesting – you are very boring – ha ha ha ha ha – what a w…… !!!
Dhyanraj, you can drop the ‘ha ha ha’ number, because it makes you look stupid. Your stupidity is already apparent and the ‘ha ha ha’ spoils it by making it too obvious. Don’t be such a spoilsport!
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha Lokeshiii..getting nervous old chap?hahahahaha
Admit it DR ….you are a secret SN reader…. an addict, a compulsive ,an obsessive.. you read and re-read every last word here…. and have done for ten years…i’ts okay , we understand…. we have all been there, trying to give up SN needs careful support from our sister organization….Sannyaholics Annonymas….contact big P he can help… he runs a day care centre for those who have this plagueing condition.
Dhyanraj, can you refer that discourse about Rajneesh?
The whole Buddha hall full with Sannyasins heard Osho saying something about Rajneesh, and where I was?
Must be sleeping!
PS- when all the meditation coaches are preparing their disciples team for the world cup, I am still sleeping!
Let me say it on Record in a clear and easily understandable language-
If someone says, he has got 15 Cms. long machinery by nature or through Stone hanging yoga, I won´t doubt it, neither will feel jealous.
But if someone says, it is because of Osho, I will contest this utter lie.
Osho has never performed individual surgery.
What is true for the dick is true for the Enlightenment too!
After all, first chakra and the seventh are part of the same Stair case!
Spirituality he has never given extra favour to anybody, people sitting in the first row or at the back!
in other words shantam – you are not an enlightened man therefore no one else is allowed to be –
if rajneesh a devotee of osho becomes a buddha you are jealous because you havent yet – that was the reason osho never declared any of his people enlightened unless they died and no one could hurt them
WE SHOULD ALL TYPE IN CAPITAL LETTERS SO THAT NO DISRESPECT HAPPENS TO ANY MASTER OR TEACHER OR DISCIPLE LIVING OR DEAD OR EVEN SPOOKILY APPEARING IN CHILDRENS SHOWS FROM THE 1970′s OR ELSEWHERE
yours,
p. aspirin
The funny thing is guys that I got an email claiming that all these SDR posts were actually a hoax of complete nonsense that we shouldn’t be hoodwinked into following up, plus the videos were actually part of the training videos for the Lithuanian Electro Shock Hospital that were still out on loan.
And there was I giving free theraposts to a humble seeker, who I thought was in acute need of TLC, SN style. Next time I’m sticking to proven solid writers who know what they’re talking about……
don’t all rush at once…..
beware beware – soon you will be completely under their evil spell
dont be fooled cleverme mind – the clones of rajneesh are out to confuse your brain and irritate you into losing your imaginary identity as a philanthropic theraposter to the poor benighted innocent seekers
where will you all end up if rajneesh has his way ? what will you do when your brain falls down ? you cant take it with you you know-
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Yes, it is possible that SDR is a creation of someone who wants to tarnish Mr Rajneesh’s already tawdry public image. SDR, if he were real, would have to be the worst bit of PR ever devised. Anyone harbouing doubts about Mr Rajneesh’s authenticity would be completely put off by SDR’s comments. Self righteous, misinformed, childish, uneducated, reactionary…his list of negative personal traits goes from bad to worse on a daily basis and all this from someone who claims to feel foolish posting on SN. Surely he is a fiction. Nobody could possibly maintain such a high level of ignorance on the SN platform….except perhaps dear Shantam (my prime suspect). No, I am sure SDR is a wicked attempt to undermine Mr Rajneesh. The guru game is turning into a dirty business. Shantam, the game is up! You got to change your evil ways!
yes lokesh – it seems you cant help yourself making up lies doesnt it – an ex sannyasin of 32 years and making up black propaganda against osho’s disciples
you say i am misinformed and ignorant – the opposite of the truth – i am informed and know rajneesh and osho – and you have those qualities of being misinformed and ignorant about rajneesh – and not only that – actively making up stories to misinform others !
thats not right lokesh – the dirty business is yours
hello frank and everyone here
rajneesh is more alive and speaks about his experience of heart attack and energetic breakthrough in his home to a small group of oshococom people – he also mentions sannyas news and talks in appreciation of franks dick joke – ha ha ha ha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=l1i5arkDpeA
I watched the vid for two minutes. Simply nothing of interest there for me. Seems like a good enough chap with pleny of ambition. Good luck to him and I’m glad to see he has made a speedy recovery from his operation.
DR, never mind the joke about brians dick,its a small matter and nothing to write home about anyway…
more important is:where`s my payment for brians` use of my word “therapriest”?
you might have another copyright/trademark issue on your hands here!
but seriously,your brian certainly needs a new joke-writer ,in fact,i would like to take this opportunity to offer my services as a script writer and allround advaitising man for him,he definitely needs one.
being a tribute act is ok to start with ,and you might think that there`s no business like o-sho business, but after a while its time stand on your own two chappals.
as an act,”Rajneesh too” is right up there with the “bootleg beatles”,”think Floyd” and “retro tull”,fair enough,but I`d say its time to move on and create some original material….
the silly walk idea seems to work ok in ex-soviet electro-shock hospitals,i grant you,but its hardly original is it?
and I really cant see anyone with more than,say,30-40% of their brain still functioning going for that one.
time for a new challenge
a complete re-invention.
I could mastermind it.
the deal: accommodation,food,transport and travel expenses on top of $1000 a week,and first choice on any oriental totty that joins up,and they`ll be a shed load,i can promise you…..
oh,and and a lifetime`s supply of whatever it is you guys are smoking` down there.i will need that.
there,that should do it.
I could start next Monday.
mexico looks nice….
mmm. goin` loco down in Acapulco
I`m ready……….
mm – expensive guy arent you frank – ah well – i expect we will manage to continue to get along without you
Why only Osho people are becoming Buddhas or are traveling all around to get the degree of “Buddha” and nobody else?
Lokesh, if you are at facebook, you will meet Satyam Dhyanraj every day.
He is real authentic and jolly guy. What Amrito is for Osho, Dhyanraj is for Rajneesh.
On a personal level, I feel love for all these people around Rajneesh. Just few months ago, these people were the ones who were first to like my posts at facebook´s page, ” Save Osho Pune and Samadhi”.
Being fair, I pointed towards a photo created by Dhyanraj, which gives the impression as if Mr. R is the spiritual successor of Osho, and within a day all these people as group deleted me from their friends list!
What so ever, they are juicy people!
ha ha ha – thats nice shantam –
but i certainly dont hope to become the doctor doom of osho commune that amrito is today – amrito is osho’s enemy who pretends to own him – and has done much harm
Shantam, the extent of your Machiavellian plot knows no bounds. Leave that poor chap Rajneesh alone. Have you no decency in your heart?
What happened with your decency in your heart Lokesh?
Lokesh would you explain yourself please? “Shantams Machiavellian plot knows no bounds”, “leave that poor chap Rajneesh alone”, “have you no decency in your heart”?? Haha what is this all about, would you explain yourself? lol, two such simple and innocence people i would really like to know what is there that explains why you feel that about them.. and don´t come with that one that Rajneesh is an “imitator of Osho”, that´s too old…. we all know and why should someone be upset about it… one just looks the other way and keeps his life on, why bother?.. unless his similarity to Osho is so big that it does not look like an imitator anymore but perhaps something else and that might make people have some different feelings… i don´t know, thats my feeling, but why do you feel that about them is there really something? lol because i can´t really understand!
Macchiavelli he wrote as warning not as guide for dictators, many don’t know that. He was a libertarian for the new renaissance republics, but he know shenanigans too good that everyone think he must be writing manual. Me a go now ,me have ladyboy appointment.
that´s an ok knowledgeable answer of your point of view but i´m actually looking for Lokesh´s answer my friend…