The programme made by the Oregon Historical Society about the Ranch is available here:
http://www.opb.org/programs/oregonexperience/programs/player/41-Rajneeshpuram
Do you feel it is a fair, even-handed report?
Was the ranch destroyed from within or from without?
or six of one,half a dozen of another?
visionaries thwarted by fascists?
or religious nutters going off on one?
a zen koan?
or a zen con?
Did it evoke a nice bit of nostalgia
or a cringe of embarrassment?
(at having paid into a terrorist attack on innocent people or maybe just the sight of those awful 80s hairdos?)
Did you learn anything from it?
or still a bit confused?
Do you even care?
after all,it was nearly 30 years ago.
are you too involved with living in the present to bother about the past?
Osho described the ranch as a “mini fascist state”.
was that an aberration or is the whole master thing so predicated on total authority that it just can`t avoid fascistic tendencies?
Those top-heavy authorities seem to be still existent in every surviving Osho organisation.
is that as it should be to get the “vision” out?
Or does it represent a failure to grasp the “lessons” of the Ranch?
One long term sannyasin has just written me in the facebook chat, “Osho has failed. His words have proved just the empty words. His sannyasins have become egocentric; wise, yet no contribution to the world at large.”
I can understand the frustrations of all those who have walked miles in the direction shown by Osho´s finger, finally reaching not to some oasis, but a dry well.
Let us presume Rajneeshpuram experiment was not crushed by the legal irregularities, that all the paperwork was complete, that Osho got his green card still He was supposed to leave the body, if not in 1990 then in 2000. What we would have done with the whole thing, once the ringleader was gone?!
those who walked miles in the direction shown by Osho’s finger, have actually been walking in circles. Perhaps that’s the problem with people in general and it gets crystallized with those who join religious organizations, cults, political parties etc.
Osho did fail with his experiment, most bright people have known that since the fall of the ranch, but you have many overly needy, wanting, desperate people who just turn a blind eye to all of that experience and continue on their merry way looking, praying, hoping some magical captain will show up with his/her ship named the “Good ship LolliPop” and take them away to the land of Oz.
Babasv, to say “Osho did fail with his experiment” is highly contestable. If you mean that the vast majority of sannyasins, let alone the population of the Earth, have remained ‘unenlightened’, and that the Earth isn’t yet “a very Paradise”, then you might well have a point. But we need to look deeper than present appearances, I think.
Osho wasn’t just here for ‘us’, the generation that was ‘there at the time’, he was a landmark for the humanity of the future, not only through his teachings, but through his words and presence having entered the collective human psyche, via the hundreds of thousands (maybe more?) who saw, heard and read him. Including you and I – who indeed possibly might well have ‘failed’, depending on the criteria used to evaluate our efforts, of course – and everyone else we’ve come across along the sannyas trail.
(NB: Not my original ideas, but taken from another Master).
Besides, setting aside ‘spiritual attainment’, even on ‘ordinary’ levels, I’d say – ok, imagine – from what I’ve seen, vast numbers of people’s overall mental health and general well-being have been influenced for the better by practical aspects of Osho’s work.
It certainly hasn’t suited everyone, including me for lengthy periods, but then, not everything is for everybody, at all times, is it? That’s why there’s always at least a few Masters and other teachers around, to cover the various segments of the human race, I guess.
No, isn’t it usually the truth that to claim a Master has ‘failed’, as Hugh Milne famously did with his book, ‘The God that Failed’, is surely more a case of a disillusioned and hence angry, bitter (ex)-disciple projecting his/her own sense of ‘failure’ on to another? IE, it’s the ‘disciple’ that’s ‘failed’ (in their own eyes), not the Master.
And I suppose the final ‘joke’ might be that there is no ultimate ‘failure’ anyway, of Master or disciple…It’s all One Big Learning Process, innit?!
“.. he was a landmark for the humanity of the future…” you must be joking!!! one of the most ridiculous statements made on SN in a long while.. whatever happened to the “here and now”? he was/is still a “small potato”, compared to the entire lifeforms that exists on this earth, both past and present.. quite delusional on your part to make these statements- and very arrogant.
I suggest you re-read the second paragraph of my last post, Babasv, and at least attempt to see what’s being said, as you appear to have little or no grasp of the point at all.
Sheela was angry and bitter throughout her entire reign at the ranch and look where took everyone.. off a freakin’ cliff!!! Hugh, though angry and bitter expressed himself after he dropped sannyas, and he didn’t drag people down with him, as sheela did.. sheela was hand picked by the old man and he reiterated his support many times prior to the poisoning revelations.. so he’s ultimately responsible.. Sounds like a story line from a Star Trek episode(sorry to stoop this low), where Kick is sent by his bosses at Star Fleet to steal a Romulan cloaking device.. if anything went wrong, he’d get the blame, not the Federation.. Sounds to me this is what Osho did with sheela- he called most of the shots until….. we know the ending… yes, he did fail in his “Commune” experiment.. so this is what you call a “commune”?
Btw, Babasv, I’m referring to the whole of Osho’s work, not simply to the Ranch experiment, which did ‘fail’, of course, as your original piece yesterday seemed to indicate you weren’t just focusing on the ranch.
Nevertheless, it’s also the case that living at the ranch was hugely beneficial for many, in purely personal terms, wasn’t it? Didn’t you yourself enjoy it, for example?
Not forgetting the invaluable benefits of learning from the mistakes, however shocking that unconsciousness/lack of responsibility might appear in retrospect.
Clouds and Silver Linings, Babasv….
“it’s the disciple that failed”.. what a cop out! the drunken conductor of the orchestra is flailing his hands all over the place, causing the orchestra to spew out such ugly tunes, that in a newspaper review the next morning, the reviewer blames the musicians for his current disdain all classical music…
Try re-reading the last two paragraphs of my post, Babasv…especially, perhaps, the first one. It’s possible you might have something (or a lot) in common with Hugh Milne, which has been apparent in many or most of your posts, ever since you started coming here.
You do sound, at times, as if your extreme anger at ‘sannyas’, Osho – the whole package – (which seems far more than mere disenchantment) might be a sort of re-run of the devastation you experienced as a child. As such, very understandable. Pain hurts.
someones gotta keep you over-zealous oshoites in check.. a burden, i know.. i’ll be rewarded with 100 young virgins and a place at the right hand of the father when i make my journey in the afterlife…. as for comparing me to Hugh, i think you’ve been misreading what i’ve been posting.
Babasv:
“…as for comparing me to Hugh, i think you’ve been misreading what i’ve been posting.”
Ok, Babasv, so you’re not deeply disappointed, disillusioned, angry at Osho and/or everyone else that might have screwed it all up (including yourself)? You’ve ‘seen the Light’ and are now able to view the whole thing dispassionately, with the superior wisdom the years have bestowed upon you?
Pull the other one, sunshine, your posts proclaim quite the opposite (in case you hadn’t noticed).
Btw, your insisting that Osho was and is relatively insignificant as he was/is only a miniscule particle in the vast sweep of Creation, strikes me as simply a retreat into a purely materialist viewpoint, where significance is determined mainly by ‘size’ (and rather typically American, as it happens!).
How about bringing consciousness into the picture? (Your own might be a good start, as long as it isn’t undermined by all that heavy stuff you seem to be labouring under). You might then conclude that Osho was/is indeed a ‘giant’, whose influence on the human psyche will continue for many generations.
Perhaps there’s more in Heaven and Earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy, Mr Babasvetlana….
maybe it was all a failure.
but what would have success been like?
ronald reagan reprising john wayne`s centurion in “the robe” and announcing on primetime TV:
“this man truly was the messiah that america has been waiting for” ?
sheela and the chosen few becoming enlightened and becoming head of the UN and introduing meritocracy to the unconscious masses?
and for those who have longings to have been part of a “landmark for humanity”…
dont give up hope….
just remember how an unemployed,
longhaired homeless beardo carpenter,turned illegal hooch-brewer and donkey thief managed to make a name for himself in history.
who would have bet even a single shekel on that in say,39 AD?
Frankie: I found the show to be entertaining and yes, very nostalgic. An extra hour should have been done, showing the grunts p.o.v. We heard interviews from some of the higher-ups, along with a retired college professor who happened to have worked and lived in Oregon at that time. More investigation should have been done and revealed to show more of the mentality of sannyasins: why they joined, their lives before taking sannyas, physical and mental abuse when they were kids etc. The politics of the higher ups, their in-fighting, back-stabbing, power plays and of course, why sannyasins – those “99%ers” who knew nothing or very little of the horrors being created by Sheela and her thugs (the 1%) – how naivete, denial and selfishness were the main reasons why sannyasins did nothing, said nothing when nasty shit happened at the ranch and then watched it all go up in smoke.
Like that clown swami, the one interviewed who commented how the “share a home” program was all a farce. Well, why didn’t he stand up and rally against it? He said it best in the beginning of the program , to para-phrase – ” We all feared of being asked to leave the ranch, that was as good as a death sentence to us”.
Our Achilles Heel – we’d do anything to stay at the ranch, even turn a blind eye to murder and mayhem if need be…Some things never change in the sannyas world – just look at the resort in Pune. Good Night.
Vartan – did you see any “anti-aircraft sized guns? Guards having trouble carrying those guns “through” the crowds? I didn’t; then again I must have been watching the wrong program.
babasvetlana says:
Vartan – did you see any “anti-aircraft sized guns?
No (sad face). I’ve been looking through google and it might have been something like a large size assault rifle like a Beryl. I don’t feel the size of the gun makes that much difference …
Vartan
perhaps you were much shorter back then.. things change.
I almost feel I know this story off by heart. Nonetheless, on viewing the docu for ten minutes, I actually found it well edited and reasonably interesting. Ten minutes was enough. Perhaps I will return to it at a later date, for want of something better to do.
In answer to the question, ‘Are you too involved with living in the present to bother about the past?’, I have to answer yes. I’m not sitting chanting om all day, whilst being constantly showered by divine light, but I am leading a full and creative life that does not have much room for nostalgia in it.
On sites like Facebook there are quite a number of sanyassins involved in keping the past alive, posting photos of the good old days etc. Also here on SN it is at times like being on a treadmill, covering the same old ground again and again, how aware was Osho of what was going on a the ranch etc. Somehow there is something stagnent about such topics, as if nothing of much importance has happened in the last couple of decades. It’s all a bit boring. There are so many more interesting subjects that could be discussed on this forum, but very few bother to create new threads in order for that to manifest. A general lack of intelligent inspiration, one could surmise
As I see it the great experiment that was the ranch most definitely failed if you find yourself overly fascinated by bygone days. The experiment worked if you took in what was to be learned and then moved on to higher and more fertile terrain. Keep on truckin!
10 minutes was enough- hmm.. so why are you still posting at SN?
Baba, I don’t really see what one has to do with the other. I enjoy SN. There are some good commentators writing on here. The threads can be interesting. This particular thread I don’t find interesting, but so what? That is just me and I’m sure it is different for others. I’m quite sure that once things get going this thread might become interesting. I simply find this whole ranch story has passed its sell by date Very old hat. Freedom to express oneself is one aspect of the game. I trust this answers in some way your question
Babasvetlana, i was looking at facebook to find some name like yours. Surely this name is not given by any parents nor any guru. To create fictitous name as mask is also an art. Well done, Mr/Mrs./Ma/Ms. Babysvetlana!
Before you come to that level where you judge Osho as failure or success, please take one simple step. Write with your sannyas name and show your face, maybe a bit of biographical note will be quite helpful. If you are really a 1979 sannyasin, I am sure many sannyasins must be knowing you, after all the sannyas community was never more than a population of a mid-size European town. Won´t you prefer that they acknowledge your wisdom and great insights?
This I say time and again. 99% times brave hearts simply go back to their holes.
Shantam, as I see it, we all create a fictitous mask while alive. If Baba wants to remain annonymous that is his business not yours. I find in general that people who are concerned about other’s business tend not to have any of their own to take care of. One can guage what sort of a person someone is on this site by reading their comments. The idea that one needs a face to go with these comments to better understand who is behind the writing is a superfluous one, which, if taken as a reflection of what kind of person you are,
Shantam, one could conclude that you are a man caught up in the superficial aspects of life…entirely missing what is going on behind the scene.
You conclude by saying, ‘This I say time and again. 99% times brave hearts simply go back to their holes.’ The fact that you constantly repeat something does not make it true, as is the case in this instance.
i didn’t know that you shantam, were hired as chief enforcer, goon, thug, cop, “brown- shirt”, comrade KGB officer, or whatever by Sannyasnews… you’re not in communication with Sheela are you?
shantam- Facebook- what’s that? you show yours and i’ll show mine
Sing along with me(those ex-sannyasins in their 60′s and 70′s hanging out in the Bavarian beer halls can join in too.) “Those were the days my friend; We thought they’d never end; We’d sing and dance forever and a day; We live the life we choose; We’d fight and never lose; For we were young and sure to have our way; La, la, la, la, la, la(beer hall chorus).
1. Whatever happens is always the right thing to be happening and the rest is merely a case of getting one’s mind round to it.
2. Historically, it’s your No1 that is going to do you. Osho often said that some will start by kissing your feet, and end up on your throat. So he knew. Doh.
3. On various occasions after the ranch, I was hearing that Osho was trying get away from ‘some’ people. I don’t think he managed it.
But none of that matters at all … what does matter is, that very little power if any at all was left behind for the wrong people. Think about it.
As far as the documentary goes, I liked the HD, and there was some footage of Osho I never saw before. The rest it is what it is.
For those that think Osho failed … Osho’s work was Osho. He lived a great life surrounded to the end by beautiful people that loved him and he loved them. He had gorgeous girlfriends and the best cars in the world. Anyone who is enlightened and doesn’t live like that need their brains tested.
Lessons to be learned? There are always lessons to be learned. What was, and is, happening between Osho and some of us is a little thing called love. And to be in-love means that we are seeing something invisible to others.
Vartan
“…He had gorgeous girlfriends and the best cars in the world. Anyone who is enlightened and doesn’t live like that needs their brains tested….”
I think who need a brain test is you.
Fortunately, this capitalistic shit mentality and attitude produced and exported from America began to be questioned from more and more people every day.
It could be a part of your “surrender to the master” program that is still operating in you.
Oh look! A Rolls Royce is coming out of the dust, run there to bow down to your enlightened master, Vartan.
I find myself more or less agreeing with ys’s general drift here. Who gives a stuff what sort of car anyone has?
Still, if someone has truly united with Life itself and is no longer in thrall to the mind and emotions, then surely they can take or leave the rest of the world’s baubles. The luxury cars were a joke and a pr stunt, weren’t they?
And Vartan wasn’t being wholly serious, was he?…I hope not!
Satyadeva,
I had lunch with an old academic friend today. He was told by another academic, who had been to Poona One, that Osho had sex with hundreds of people. Amazing how one projects.
Talk about Chinese Whispers. A bit like Miller’s Salem Witches in ‘The Crucible’.
I also meet a sannyasin in the 80′s who couldn’t stop talking about rolls royces and it was the object he so desperately desired. Perhaps the poor bugger has found out what he really desires. The Obscure Object of Desire. It takes all types.
Nietzsche was pretty good on envy and resentment.
It isn’t very creative. Still he did have a certain respect for the early christians and their slave morality. It was creative enough to conquer Rome but still it was reactive. Like some who can only criticise Osho.
satyadeva says:
The luxury cars were a joke and a pr stunt, weren’t they?
And Vartan wasn’t being wholly serious, was he?…I hope not!
Perhaps Vartan was serious. Osho was far more involved in Indian than US politics. Very often his stunts (even on the ranch) were directed at Indian internal situations that we (westerners) knew little about and cared even less.
Vartan
Y/S,
Nice post.
Well one only has to consider what happened in Latin America and the crimes committed by the Unite States Government in these regions during the Cold War and today.
In 1970, in the notes of a meeting with President Richard Nixon on how to undermine the democratically elected Chilean government of Salvadore Allende, CIA Director Richard Helms wrote succinctly: ‘Make the economy scream’. Same strategy is happening today in Venezuela. Destroy the economy and people will turn against Chavez.
Someone once said on this site that I was anti-American. The most intelligent people in the United States are the most critical. They always have been. One only has to look at the great writers.
As for State Capitalism in China what to say?
Cheers.
If the Ranch has failed… – it was just a first step, first try, for a new start, but we are easy in giving up. Seen from such viewpoint of something has failed, the present world commune, has not failed?
The experiment should continue, people are adaptive, although perhaps a bit frustrated and doubting our Commune authorities. Maybe newcomers do better. Those old authorities get the suck, is it the right term?
Sannyas should get the head up, and continue Osho’s Vision, not just a small place of remembrance, to little for Sannyas. The commune could be more alert this time.
To me, the same people I am always talking provoked the commune Authorities into wrong decisions, lost maybe their nerves and spiritual overview. Those interests do not allow Rebels, and if the Rebel is been listening by intelligent people, something has to be done.
I see three different categories of enlightened ones. One is quiet, the next is not quiet but no Rebel, he likes it smooth, and there are enlightened Rebels who go for it total without compromises.
Oh -oh…Osho’s vision…here we go again. Preetam, for the benefit of ignorant people like me could you please state concisely what exactly you perceive to be as representing Osho’s vision?
I understood, it is “Self – realization”.
That is quite a broad term. Self-realization… what does that mean to you and how does Osho’s vision manifest itself in your life in terms of self-realization? Are you self-realized? Or is it something you imagine yourself to be working towards?
Lokesh to me it is same (Sarman) Vision of all enlightened Beings, it is not alone Osho’s. I love Osho’s way, Celebration / Meditation, perfect. It does not concern me if, enough seeing what “Self” contains.
Jolly good.
if it is a self gratifying act in the privacy of one´s room, it is no one´s else business. But if some anonymous person writes, not one time ot two time but continuously on a public platform addressing the thoughts on others, be it sannyasnews or newsweek, it is molestation with readers sensibilities”.
Problem with most of the wiser than wise Lokesh and his boy friend babasvetlana( If you walk with Burqa, why i should presume it is woman, it can be some Talibani too) kind of people is that to follow a basic etiquette and well established norms seem below their prestige.
And these people claim not to communicate through superficial levels but from the depth.
My Foot!
Yeah Shantam, molestation with readers sensibilities apart,
how do we know that you aren’t really some sexy chick ‘posing as a fat incontinent Sikh who lives in Freibourgo? Gotcha! I’ll bet your real name is Heidi.
“I’m beginning to like you Earth-man, while I saw fear in the Klingon’s(Shantam) eyes”.– Maab, from Star Trek, episode “Friday’s Child”,1967
like captain beefheart said….
“its the same old story
tell me where does it end?
its the same ol` blues
the same ol` blues again”
pardon me for posting.
its a bit of a dead end story.
no one has really come up with anything new or interesting for a lot of years now.
a few things hit me in that film.
those dead-end western towns in the boondocks…
it really brought back how faceless all those places are.
i criss-crossed the states a few times on the greyhound bus and hitching.
i had some good coversations,too.
“where are you from,bud?”
“london”
“london,huh?they speak english there?”
“er…some of them,yeah”
i`d never seen folks that fat before.
those guys would stagger into the diner for a mountain of pancakes and when they sat down ,the stool would disappear up their ass.
people would ask me”have you seen the grand canyon?”
i`d say “every day”
those pictures of driveby made me laugh.
i really laughed.
not at or with.
somewhere else.
a kind of shock.
it was so odd.
guns and roses.
heavily armed bliss-bunnies
on the dusty road to nowhere…
such a wacky piece of theatre.
a kind of collage of things that dont fit,but for a moment,have to.
kinda ironic Frank, that today most people are lard asses, even in jolly old England. Here in boondock U.S. most states have an obesity rate over 70%, so i suppose what you saw back when you did that greyhound bus tour(i took greyhound x-country twice- awful), you witnessed the birth of a new world wide trend- “lard-assity”. With an i-pad on every lap, no need to do Dynamic, just jiggle that lard ass with i-pad in hand over to Starbucks for another mocha grande with whipped cream and your mind will be a clear as a cold winters night. Great for a career in the health insurance sales field.
Take it easy with all that lard-assity talk, because it might affect Shantam’s sensabilites.
well,the true success story is obviously lard-assity.
pioneered by a “chosen few” in nowheresville usa,the movement has spread like a wildfire across the globe,as prophecied by bubba free lunch, with no respect for borders or governments…
consciousness may not have expanded but waistlines have…asses hanging over edges of seats is a global phenomenon and wheelchairs full of wobbling bloated flesh now found from hicksville to hanoi.. kentucky to katmandu,and from shenandoah to shanghai…
and fullfilling Nietzche`s famous dictum…
amor fati
love your fat.
Last few months of His life, Osho was leading almost every day one of its kind event.
Hundreds of Videos are available.Thousands of people, glamorous and educated westerns going through collective catharsis and trying to go deeper into silence.
No article about this unique event has ever been written on this site. No news channel has ever made any documentry about this.
It simply shows, how rats are celebrating the departure of a big cat!
Hear, hear, Shantam, the rotten bounders. Bring back the birch rod and national service.
I dont see the Ranch as a matter of success or failure, and in any case dont see it as something to be judged in those terms. In personal terms for many it brought greater depth, and even wisdom, and an end to nievity. That sure is of value.
I liked the movie, in a way it also was kind of innocent, and also reminders of things like Twinkies, and stuff, nice for us seniors!
The pics of Sheela were a surprise to me. She sure did look radiant around Osho, not really matching the person on uppers and downers…
I would still contend it was an experiment to provoke God, and even the time frame was about right. Five years is enough of that. Had it been a “success” in temporal terms it would have been a spiritual disaster. Little empires within empires,. and all in an isolated desert, and maybe all of us quite zombified by now!
I can imagine … sannyasin zombies roaming through Portland. The Walking Red.
I wonder how ‘institutionalised’ Osho himself was?
Vartan
The old Hindu “sannyasin” was supposed to only stay in one place for a maximum of 3 days. That tradition, well someone like Roman may know how it arose. But yeah, for sure, was about never getting oversecure or institutionalised.
I was around the old man a bit, and he always seemed ready to move at the drop of a hat. One had the feeling he was pleased to be wherever he found himself.
the hindu sannyasin had to get out of town after 3 days,because by then,he had run out of local mugs to panhandle for free dal,rice,chai and ganga….
it was a way of making sure they didnt wind up the locals too much..
and so keep their trip going for another few yugas.
ecological!
bom shankar!!
Parmartha,
Teertha hasn’t been posting these days but it would be good to get his take here.
Apparently in Vedic times the guru was an instructer of rituals and religious duties. With the later Upanishadic era the guru could bring about liberation. The discourses in the bhakti and tantric tradition which also came later are all about the guru imparting higher truth, moksha blah blah blah.
One is transformed by being in their presence. Again the word charisma pops into mind.
The game of the devotee maybe losing its function as I think you’ve implied. Interesting how the daughter of one of J.Krisnamurti’s long term partners wrote that one should never abandon one’s critical faculties around a charismatic leader.
‘Living in the shadows of J.Krisnnamurti’ is an interesting read but disturbing for Krisnnamurti devotees. A bit like devotees reading negative stuff on Osho. What I do find amazing is that I’ve met people who’ve read Milne’s book and it turned them onto Osho. A weird world.
I remember Jeff McMullan interviewing Osho on Sixty Minutes and they were having a lot of fun. McMullan is an intelligent person who has helped Indigenous kids through medical support programs. The interview is worth downloading and happened just before the ranch collapsed. He pointed out what a wonderful sense of humour Osho had. He asked Osho whether he might come to Australia becomes there were many sannyasins in Fremantle. Osho said he wouldn’t today and McMullan said what about tomorrow. Osho replied that it was a possibility.
I never saw the ranch as my home or the cows and buildings belonging to me. Another old sannyasin I got to know felt the same on his visits when sannyasins welcomed him ‘home.’ That doesn’t mean I dismiss the work put into the place. It just wasn’t my scene. The day I watched him fly out of America I was pretty happy, along with other friends. At the time I was in touch with a journalist who was an ex sannyasin. He was writing a book on the whole scenario and he had a lot of contacts. Interesting how he knew more about what was happening at the ranch than most who were there. It was the blind devotional aspect which he justifiably found disturbing on hs visits to the ranch. Does one blame Osho for this?
Obviously Krishnamurti
I’d say that as an experiment in provoking the American legal system Rajneeshpuram was a resounding success. As for provoking God, what exactly do you mean by that, Parmartha? One could could say that the idea of a group of humans trying to provoke the creative intelligence responsible for dreaming, creating and annihilating universes amounts to nothing more than a puny excercise in futility. Man’s arrogance knows no bounds. Kind of like the idea of saving the planet.
The American system a “legal” system, very funny, it proves the acceptance of Lies and Force as Authority. Perhaps, that’s why many people negate something with a “better and healthier” approach and trying to prove a lie where they lost the track.
Not in a rationalising mood at the moment Lokesh, but just the feeling of “magic” being in the air, and “light”. Perhaps I should have said wherever Osho was, rather than the Ranch. As I recall you had the same feeling in Poona one, as I did there also.
I suppose I always felt that whatever organisation seemed to be in power in either place, that things happened personally and in all sorts of ways totally outside of it.
Yes, Parmartha, I know where you are coming from very well. I was just out to pull your leg. I always liked that one about wanting his sannyasins to provoke the divine in each other. Where did it all go wrong. Boo-hoo, where’s my hanky?
may i help: provoke god, here’s my interpretation:
Something so deep implanted in western counsciousness, an old man with beard who had somehow created the universe, and who for some reasons hated us from the beginning, and only the one who please him at the most(basically with refusing to enjoy all the nice aspects of human life,like sex,creativity,freedom,etc.) will, after death, find their eternal happiness in him.
This mad idea had been used and refined from the collapse of the Roman Empire until now in order to enslave humanity. And you know it works. So much energy (in form of pain, waste of life of millions) had nurtured it that it stays up there in the ionosphere, conditioning the life of many. Perhaps this egregora is what he wants to provoke, it all stays in the collective unconscious mind of humanity. Which, you know, is full of shit for a big part.
Ironically, he was also an old man with a long beard who in same way played the role of a god or something like that for many. Sometimes I thought he wanted to take all the human religious illusions and conditioning on him, in order to give it a big shock and destroy it. Just a thought….
my mum,bless her soul,
used to refer to bhagwan as
“that indian bloke who looks a bit like god”
you`re probably right youngman,
a set up…
osho coming on as the white-bearded god in the old style with people falling at his perfect feet…
and then suddenly pulling the rug out…
a kind of “the emperors new clothes” with osho as both the emperor and the child in the crowd.
neitzsche said: god is dead
osho hatched the plan to actually take the old bugger out
with sheela as the hitman…
even if he didn’t plan it, it has come out that way for many….
Young sannyasin says:
“may i help: provoke god, here’s my interpretation: …”
The only god that was provoked was the Christian God. In a way, we were innocent, as in naive, childlike, boiled frogs.
Vartan
The way it came across in the documentary … We had to have a Police Force (and guns) in order to hold a festival. Basically they put the guns in our hands. Which reminds of Bill Hick’s ‘Pick up the gun’ joke.
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Vartan
Babasvetlana points out in a post that the ‘Rajneeshpuram show was entertaining and yes, very nostalgic. An extra hour should have been done, showing the grunts p.o.v.’
In the first quoted sentence ‘nostalgic’ stands out for me. The word seems to imply a longing for something missing – perhaps a sense of homelessness or homesickness? It is also bemusing to see that those most critical of Osho and sannyas – those who continually ridicule – are still strongly attached with a sense of nostalgic longing. One is here tempted to ask what is it one really desires? What is one looking for? Nostalgia and desire are obviously implicated, connected and go together. It would be interesting to study the origins of the word nostalgia. I think it is ‘Pothos’ in Greek and is linked very closely (synonymous) to desire – Plato .
So why do some find the doco very nostalgic? After all one’s dreams supposedly went up in smoke. Is there some residual longing for paradise? A return to the womb? Had one been thrust out of the Garden of Eden? Surely not? It happened many years ago and from the wisdom of hindsight, it was a bad trip (not my words). So what is one nostalgically looking for? This question maybe worth exploring further. Nostalgia surely arises from a separation. But a separation from what? Rousseau’s spontaneous childhood? A separation from oneself? Nostalgic desire is a yearning for a distant object – an ideal which will never be reached – and there is bound to be disappointment. Nostalgic longing maybe asking for the impossible – the yearning for a beloved, your lost self, your inner child, for rest free from anxiety etc. There is also bound to be a lashing out after the Fall so to speak. Amazing how this lashing out can continue after thirty years.
I also find it interesting how the accounts by disenchanted disciples, who feel betrayed and let down, are full of nostalgic longing. Perhaps if we look behind our nostalgic yearnings we may understand ourselves better? Looking behind what one writes may tell us what one yearns for and thus who one is. An ideological image (which one can be oblivious to) maybe driving us but it cannot be fulfilled. I also find it funny how those who want the impossible can often tell you to get a life. But what the hell is there to get? An impossible love? The unobtainable object? Again we have the heroic quest and ridiculous search. Make sure you don’t miss out, which maybe actually a good thing, as opposed to the puffed up hero lashing out in his nostalgic wonderings.
As an aside, this reminds me of a very close sannyasin friend in hospital with severe MS. He can’t wander literally these days and his mental world isn’t full of nostalgic longing. He feels sannyas was the best game in town till Osho died (his words). He never felt betrayed, as a young disciple, by an older bearded fraud. My friend isn’t a lost wanderer searching for some nostalgic past in the future. My sannyasin friend seems to have found a sense of dignity within himself and isn’t nostalgically searching for the other outside himself. He also isn’t looking for something beyond the here-and-now. He’s not a literal man fixed with certainties. I was upset seeing him at my last visit and he was very together.
As for the the documentary, I thought it was interesting because it wasn’t a straightforward narrative. It showed how utopian quests and idealism can lead to frustration and disappointment. Osho said in ‘Nirvana the Last Nightmare’ that idealism kills you with style. This was before he went to the States. It is a beautiful discourse, from memory the first in the series. I feel that Osho was intelligent enough to know that the ‘dream’ wouldn’t work at a literal level. He’d read enough on religious cults and failed utopian dreams. Still, I could be wrong.
As for the ‘extra hour and grunts’ point of view’ this may also be another nostalgic longing. However, looking at hierarchy and the ‘grunts’ maybe worth a post. The ranch was after all a class act.
I say, jolly good piece of writing. Most enjoyable.
roman – you are totally clueless. your obsession with my use of the word “nostalgia” is very interesting, it stands out for me…ha,ha,gotta laugh!!!!
Baba,
You always resort to personal attacks, a real gentleman.
No doubt you are into dialogue.
‘Between living and dreaming
there is a third.
Guess it.’
Roman: I thought we were all doing it here…most with great subtlety, others, like myself, don’t want to waste time with all the pretence – just go straight for the jugular. Class dismissed.
Baba says, ‘I thought we were all doing it here’. Apart from it being a sweeping generalism, I think he is very much mistaken.
I suspect that Baba is suffering from a dose of inferiority B-complex.
‘What do you deduce, Watson?’
but i get my shots of B- complex every night.. what will cure me then?
This is a sure cure. Works for me. Give it a try.
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roman says: So what is one nostalgically looking for? This question maybe worth exploring further.
“The Greek word for “return” is nostos. Algos means “suffering.” So nostalgia is the suffering caused by an unappeased yearning to return.” (Milan Kundera, Ignorance)
“Remembrance restores possibility to the past, making what happened incomplete and completing what never was. Remembrance is neither what happened nor what did not happen but, rather, their potentialization, their becoming possible once again.” (Giorgio Agamben, Potentialities: Collected Essays in Philosophy)
“Have you ever wondered how nostalgia isn’t what it used to be?” (Jasper Fforde, First Among Sequels)
The ranch was by no means perfect but it represented hope. And that feeling of hope is what people become nostalgic about.
Vartan
Vartan,
Great quotes from Kundera and Agamben, smart guys. Returning to what is an interesting one. Thanks.
I watch the whole documentary and I find it pretty appropriate.
It doesn’t want give you the impression that the sannyasin was a dangerous terrorist cult, not either the most realized people on earth. Just the bunch of idiots that they really were, with some talented people on it, psycholgical manipulation professionals who came to power there, and probably a CIA infiltration not demonstrable.
I enjoy the hd immages of the ranch: sometimes an image says more than 1000 words (copyright from China,you know). Usually in life we learn from mistakes and from pain, and I feel there is a lot to learn from that experience, even for people who weren’t there.
I also feel that what I’ve read in an old Osho Times from the early 90′s is true: “What come out is just the 1% of the whole story”.
But who of those who know something more want to, or perhaps can, share?
Something intelligent and understandable for everyone?
Or is this just another Utopia, like create a Paradise on Earth?
Sometimes I feel Lokesh and Frank are the gatekeepers of the place.
(Gatekeeper: a person who controls access to secrets wich cannot be revealed).
I don’t think sannyasins are any more idiotic than any other people on the planet. They came in all shapes and sizes. I know of a sannyasin who was into the sociology of sannyas and tried to work out who came to Osho. He felt there was a bit of a pattern but it was a bit like a Myer-Briggs test which can’t be empirically verified and doesn’t have credibility.
There was a book written by a sociologist titled ‘Life, Love and Laughter.’ It came out in the early 80′s. I think it was by Bob Mullan.
He wasn’t impressed by Osho but he was impressed by tha sannyasins, which is interesting. The Osho movement being part of the counter-culture or the tail-end of it. In fact, I don’t think Mullan saw Osho as being significant at all.
Some of the most intelligent people I’ve met are or have been sannyasins, it is too easy to make superficial general statements.
As an aside, it is interesting to note that millions regard the Dalai Lama as an important spiritual leader and he has some very intelligent followers. The irony is that the Tibetan ‘oracle’ who, in 1959, delivered to the Dalai Lama the message to leave Tibet, was on the CIA payroll.
In this post, the comment that ‘they are just a bunch of idiots that they really are’ is poorly put and needs to be developed further. You are saying nothing. When I went to the ranch I was impressed with what I saw and many people I met. Admittedly I didn’t go as a worker and just enjoyed myself. I also went in winter because I don’t like crowds. My criticism of the ranch was that it was very insular. Small things like only being able to buy Osho books annoyed me. In actual fact this proved significant because there was an Orwellian aspect and I did find the language of some sannyasins could be limiting. Humans are mimicking creatures and people did try to mimick Osho by using his phrases. This could be a poverty of consciousness. I don’t bame Osho for this. When I travelled through Europe I visited different centres and I think these places were less isolated, which was healthier.
before i respond to you Roman – were you ever at the ranch? or pune 1? bombay? consider that before you open your mouth.
what about the Dalai’s current oracle? on the CIA payroll? look at his recent track record(1995- present) the worst adviser a person can ask for. yet the old Lama keeps him at his side- what secrets does he have on the old lama for him to still be there? sex? drugs? R ‘n’ R? we can hire Constable Shantam to investigate…. veer are deez papers? show deez papers… ve have vays of making you talk.. you schvine.
i just wanted to be provocative.I don’t really think they were idiots,probably just victims of a game where they can only loose.Anyway “nothing fails like success”.
YS, I’ll let you in on the big secret….there is no secret.
The truth is there for all to see, but it is so close nobody sees it, so quiet nobody hears it. I occasionaly meet people who have been initiated by this guru or that master or sometimes some particular sect of sadhus. Whenever I hear anything about it being a secret I smell a rat. A real master will tell you that there is no secret, that everything that existance has to offer you is yours simply because you exist. A genuine master will tell you that the real guru lives within you and if he does not tell you that he is a fraud.
The most necessary ingredient in the search for truth recipe is that you are earnest. If you really desire wholeheartedly to get to the essence of who you are you will get there, if you are 100% sincere about it. I’m afraid a 99% commitment won’t cut the mustard.
Osho put on a great show…I for one loved the seven years I spent round the man, although I hold very little in the way of nostalgia for those golden years. It’s history. Osho made a business out of selling spirituality. This was based on the logic that unless a person pays for something they do not fully appreciate it. I agree with that to a certain extent but not entirely. When it comes to the real deal you cannot make a business out of selling enlightenment. If you do you are not fully enlightened. I did not always see it like that but after six decades of living that is the conclussion I have arrived at. Why? Because that is how it is. Any guru or master who goes for the money for God option ends up mired in commerce. It happened to Osho…he became a victim of his own game. Like the great man he was, endowed with extraordinary intelligence, I believe that towards the end of his life he realized his mistakes and tried to sort it out…he returned to his old favorite…Zen. By doing that he got rid of all the hoopla and returned to the real nitty gritty.
An appropriate quote from Osho is in order: ‘All great mystics are unconvincing. By the very nature of things they have to be. You can find a thousand and one flaws in their statements — and they themselves know that the flaws are there. For them it was just a necessary evil to speak. They had to speak. They would have avoided it if it had been possible.’
So very true and no man could have delivered it like him.
Yes, there is no secret only a lie!
This morning I run into something from the Upanishades, quite similar to that Hermes in the beginning of the emerald tablets says:
1. When from thence he has risen upwards, he neither rises nor sets. He is alone, standing in the centre. And on this there is this verse:
2. ‘Yonder he neither rises nor sets at any time. If this is not true, ye gods, may I lose Brahman.’
3. And indeed to him who thus knows this Brahma-upanishad (the secret doctrine: of the Veda) the sun does not rise and does not set. For him there is day, once and for all
i woke up this morning,
popped a few of the emerald tablets i got from hermes…
put on my upanishades…
watched the sun rise from the bottom of the sea…
and i thought to myself…
there are are so many dawns that have not yet broken……
Frank,
Upanichuds fit better than Calvin Klein’s.
if the chuddy-king chooses to be reincarnated in nowheresville,USA,
his upanichuds may have to be super-sized to 4XL when he attains enlardenment…..
only if he can attach his suspenders.
frank says:
if the chuddy-king chooses to be reincarnated in nowheresville,USA,
How about we get a look-alike and play the raising from the dead game, and if ppl say that he is not identical we can say it’s a device?
Vartan
Under the influence of a chrismatic Indian guru, thousands of western disciples drop their rational and skeptical mind and pour their heart and money into a project…
Such things happen once in a hundred years!
Now when the show is long over, even a devotee type, Parmartha, is unable to come out from the denial space. Rajneeshpuram was an experiment to provoke God and devils simply spoiled the party.
Let us blame America!
Only an insider of that time can heal the wounds and that can happen only when idiocy is accepted and still thankfulness is maintained for the master….
why blame america- blame the stupidity of all involved whether it’s osho, sannyasins, or the local population… another cop out by shantam.
When you get information about events only through the newspapers, world was looks like the computer game, “Call of the Duty”.
The person behind this creative name,”Young sannyasin” is one such person. He has written, “Sometimes I feel Lokesh and Frank are the gatekeepers of the place. (Gatekeeper: a person who controls access to secrets wich cannot be revealed).”
Is young sannyasin another charcater created by great writer Lokesh?
As both seem to have this habit to get conclusions without reading the contents.
As I know from Lokesh´s biography, he has not invested even a one cent or one second in this project of Rajneeshpuram. He withdrew all his investment before the crash came.
Few people have the knack to survive, strive and thrive, even in great disasters!
Well, Shantam, whenever anyone asks me about the Poona One scene’s financial aspects I have a stock answer, ‘Osho never made any money out of me because I rarely had any.’
During the late seventies I began to make money in Poona. This probably had more than a little to do with my wife proding my lazy Scottish ass with a sharp stick in order to get my material trip together. From 74 to 77 it was unusul for me to have more than 10 rupees in my possession. I had a food pass, a little bamboo hut and the extraodinary thing about it was that I was an incredibly joyous and happy chappie.
When Rajneeshpuram was crashing I was busy getting ready to meet my own personal nemesis. I don’t remember consciously saying, my time with Osho was over. It wasn’t like that at all. It was a gradual, at times natural, life situaion determining process that wound itself out over some years.
There were others like you during the 74-77 years. Whether by fate, luck or circumstance you guys may have been the odd ones in. I also like your tale of reading ‘God Speaks’ in Poona.
I respect a Western sannyasin in his 80′s today who was in Poona in the early days. The day Osho died someone contacted him and he said something like the work starts now. He didn’t have to be told anything. One can laugh but he still runs meditation classes and camps. He stopped working in a hospital as a clinical psychologist once he met Osho. He took sannyas leaving behind a lot of attachments. I’ve also met therapists and other professionals who admired Osho but back in those days the idea of wearing orange and a mala was too big a risk. Didn’t he always say sannyas was a life and death affair? Not these days. There is a big difference.
yes roman,the good old days when orange robes walk in the streets like cowboys in the wild wild west……how many time did you risk your life for wearing your mala? You can share with us.
Are you being sarcastic? It was Osho who said you are risking everything. I personally wasn’t risking my Life by wearing the colors. There was a chasm between what I was before and what I was after. It was a device of course. You take on a new name and uniform and people you knew no longer know who you are. And you no longer know who you are either which is just fine. It is twenty two years since he died and I’m still clueless moving ineluctably closer to death each day.
ps orange never suited my complexion anyway. I much prefer black.
and we all know that shantam never contributed to pune 1 or the ranch, yet he babbles about incoherently, demanding identity papers like some drunken goon working the door at a local pub. keep on babbling shantam and we’ll keep on laughing -AT you!!! just taking the master’s advice- a good belly laugh is the best thing for one’s being…. you are a funny guy, shantam
another question posted by shantam, “who’s is this person- ‘young sannyasin’”? nobody cares except Constable Shantam, working overtime on a case that has national security implications, vital to the safety of his fatherland, millions of lives are at stake… in your dreams pal.
re “failure” and the ranch….
osho`s “vision” or technique was…
get people to do what they want till they get sick of it…
you`ve got to get into it to get out of it…
the fool who persists in his folly becomes wise,as blake put it..
sex it, dance it, work it, body energy it, trip it, ideal commune it, power trip it, rolls royce it….
dive into the sea of the material world like dolphins on acid….
“have it”…as people say these days
zorba it to the max and then be finished with it… “transcend” it..
the therapy was a conduit for that stuff,too…
this is a very powerful way to go…
there`s bound to be “failures”
and “casualties” too.
the road of excess indeed leads to the palace of wisdom.
but like any road…you can easily crash, breakdown or get pulled over by the feds….
like all zen masters,osho gave the disciples an impossible task…
the koan.
it cant be solved.
its a double bind.
three possible outcomes:
transendence
madness
or just still stuck in the bind…
not quite mad…not quite sane…not quite transcended…
hello!
“be totally free”
thats a koan too…..
howzit going..?
Eh…ehm..like groovy man…you know, the faster you spin the deeper you go? The Ferari is out!
free your mind and your ass will follow……
leaving the lard behind!!! or is it “Lord”?
Grin and bare it.
We’ve been told that the grunters should have been given more coverage in the doco. Did they grunt in joy or grin and bare it?
On their way to enlightenment they surely were aware of how one’s economic status played a role in one’s life? Society at the ranch was defined by certain values. Dress, speech, mannerisms and other factors also played a part. One only has to look at the different malas worn and the different coloured beads. Gold malas obviously elevated you to high distinction. You made progress if you had a gold blah blah on your mala saying you were a permanent resident. I also remember visiting Medina around one Christmas and you could have your mala locket changed to gold or silver.
The accommodation was different for different social groups in Rajneeshpuram. I stayed at Alan Watts and I was left alone in winter for most of my stay. The commune was made up of different class structures within a class. I remember someone pointing out to Teertha, Paul Lowe, that he would like to be in his position. Apparently the reply was that you won’t be because you want to be. There was obviously a ruling class and ruling culture at the ranch. The very clothes one wore determined one’s social status with the maharajah displaying his status through his dress and and rollers.
I guess the place was a theatre of envy. Status anxiety being part of life. Then again status anxiety is in every society and most of us can be caught up in it unless we are living in a cave. This was all a long way from Poona 1 where some had lived like kings and were now digging ditches. No wonder some left. I do remember an old timer once saying to me that once everything has been set up by the worker bees he would retire in Rajneeshpuram. I vaguely remember he and his partner sending some money as a future investment to stay there. Can anyone remember any schemes?
In Poona two those of high distinction also lived very differently in the ashram quarters from those of an inferior class.The ‘aristocracy’ had their own toilets and weren’t sniffed like the plebs. There is a lot one can explore here. By the way do they still sniff these days?
there were many though, with lots of money and clout that did participate in the daily hard labor. sheela’s hubby for one, saw him many days on those front end loaders and big rigs. many a doctor and spoiled rich kids were slaving and later playing away just like i did. WE all had our reasons being there, whether, a power trip, meditation trip, screw your brains out trip; whatever.
My guess only about a couple of dozen sannyasins actually had that mentality that you speak of and avoided daily work – speaking of course about the residents, not visitors. Teertha, worked at one of the clothing shops, as customer rep, cashier, etc. besides his usual evening duties giving sannyas, and some discourses.
Baba V,
Now that you mention it, I remember buying some thermal Upanichuddies from Teertha. He was very pleasant, put them in a little red bag and said to me ‘Have a nice day.’ And I did.
roman says:
“I guess the place was a theatre of envy. Status anxiety being part of life. Then again status anxiety is in every society and most of us can be caught up in it unless we are living in a cave … ”
In sannyas, in general, there was much more mixing of classes than in the wider society. There was an aura of wealth around the movement which was attracting ‘the rich’ and mixing them with the hippies. Unfortunately this is no longer happening. These days, sannyas appears to be populated by the barely-working classes.
Vartan
Vartan,
Hot off the Press – His Royal Highness Prince Harry has just taken Sannyas. His grandmother, Liz, is not amused.
the ranch aside for a moment, i’d like to pay tribute to a guy who just passed away yesterday, perhaps one of the few Zorba the Buddhas- actor Larry Hagman, best known for his lead role as J.R. in the T.V. series Dallas, also played the role of Major Tony Nelson along side that voluptuous blonde, Barbara Eden as “Genie”. The Reuters obituary has a paragraph which describes Hagman so well”. “Hagman had a wide eccentric streak. When he first met actress Lauren Bacall, he licked he arm because he had been told that she did not like to be touched and he was known for leading parades on the Malibu beach and showing up at a grocery store in a gorilla suit. Above his Malibu home he flew a flag with the credo “Vita Celebratio Est” (Life is a Celebration) and he lived hard for many years.” Continuing, “In 1967, rock musician David Crosby turned him on to LSD, which Hagman said took away his fear of death…” “After giving up his vices, Hagman said he did not lose his zest for life.” “I”m the same old Larry Hagman, “he’s just a little sober.” You can read the entire piece at Yahoo.com, also a piece at N.Y. Times.com.. from which a quote, “He was known to ask autograph seekers to sing him a song or tell him a joke in exchange for his autograph. ” Yes,Santa enlightened beings don’t need to be high to enjoy life. See you in the after life Larry.
Cool post.
frank says:
24 November, 2012 at 5:09 pm
THE BEST.
I think during the time of Buddha, Moses, Jesus etc. psychology was not developed, therefore it was easy to develop the religions; legends and the myths.
I really don´t know which soul has completed the wheel of life and death and therefore is free from the chain of marriage and divorce, yet on a psychological level, it will look Irreligious to think, if not all but many great saints and sages with Philips lemps illuminated in their crown chakras can be diagnosed with NPD.
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is a personality disorder in which the individual is described as being excessively preoccupied with issues of personal adequacy, power, prestige and vanity. This condition affects one percent of the population.
Shantam,
I thought it was the other way around.
‘Narcissism
is an ugly fault
and now its a boring fault too.’
‘This Narcissus of ours
can’t see his face in the nirror
because he has become the mirror.’
shantam prem says:
I think during the time of Buddha, Moses, Jesus etc. psychology was not developed, therefore it was easy to develop the religions; legends and the myths.
You don’t have to go that far back, Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia was considered to be divine, and Prince Philip is a god.
Prince Philip Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip_Movement
Vartan
Not only Yaohnanen believe being him a God. I know nobody like to hear it anymore, or allowing it in.
He belongs to this structure. He is “Master Mason”, for this ruling structure “Master Mason” is God like. Because of those ideas and old same fascist doctrine we have always the same trouble and intrigues, since 5000 years on our planet.
Preetam,
The human species is meant to waste and pine. Here’s to the cockroaches which go back to the dinosaurs. I bet they don’t have masonic lodges.
and what ever happened to old melchezedick?
whats he up to these days?
He does the same as all in this position, certainly not with audience. Master Mason like secrets in the dark, and care for creating them by occult mystifying lies. They are the architects of lies and secrets hiding behind a false face of innocence and charity.
On with the show, I don’t want to assume again this story. I mentioned it only because of this God thing of Broth. Philip.
He is in Sedona, no doubt being spun around in a power vortex. A friend just visited this morning who hopes to meet up with him in the Yucatan next month at a gathering for the entry into a new dimensional reality. Apparently, according to the Mayan elders, last time a planetary shift took place everyone went blind for 30 hours.This affliction could cause trouble for my friend in Mexico when searching for Drunvalo in a crowd. Well, it’s all just maya, is how I see it.
.
in the deserts of sedona
to the gardens of japan
from milan to yucatan
every woman every man
hit me with your melchezdick
hit me slow
hit me quick
hit me
hit me
je t`adore
ich liebe dick
hit me with your melchezdick
its nice to be a new age lunatic
hit ME!….!
frank- you’re such a block head!!!
Preetam says:
“Not only Yaohnanen believe being him a God. I know nobody like to hear it anymore, or allowing it in. … ”
We are going to have to stop poking the dragon and go back to the centre of the cyclone.
Vartan
If one is at the centre he will become celebratory. The false becomes 10 times more obvious. Is not for a being like Osho anything more painful as those lies against man? But for idealising New Age seeker, an Enlightened has to have no pain.
I remember, once Osho was asked: ‘Osho, please, what is the Truth?’ He answered in that discourse: ‘The Truth is terrible….’
What he meant to me was right; those few people serving a structure for their own benefit by keeping humanity in chains.
But how do you know he meant what you like to think he meant, Preetam? What else did he say?
Perhaps he meant something totally different? Perhaps something about how the Truth is far outside and beyond the comfortable confines of our little, self-ish human concerns; that ultimately even that Life itself doesn’t give a hoot about individual persons, as, for example, it ‘slaughters’ them (one might say) left, right and centre, day after day, year after year, century after century, millennium after millennium…?
What he meant different, say it clearly… what truth, true self, our self, one self, self realizing… truth is self. Slaughter who slaughters, not I, not my friends, queens and Presidents are slaughter all down the centuries by following that order.
Somewhere in a shoe box are my old Osho tapes, but I will not go through. Satyadeva, make from it what ever you want. Many old Sannyas save barking their belief or maybe their comfortable life, like fundamental Christians. For me most Sannyasins are stuck within this psychical problem seeking, very boring. From that standpoint one can turn his head into all four sides, but nothing will happen instead of going more for social success in the common sense of being a good member.
Silence rises out of an experience what is beyond those psycho problems and common. The problems are caused by the cruelness of some Master Masons and Idiots following them even by the life of their own kids.
.
Preetam:
“Slaughter – who slaughters? Not I, not my friends. Queens and Presidents are slaughtering all down the centuries by following that order.”
I used the word “slaughter” rather loosely, Preetam, meaning simply Death and Decay (almost wrote ‘Decaffeinated’!) – natural or through famine, disease, accident, disaster, war – whatever. You reckon Life ‘cares’ about all that?
Not only that, but as I said regarding our petty concerns, the little worlds we create with our minds and emotions…
Do you really believe Life ‘cares’ about any of that too?
I was just suggesting that maybe Osho was referring to these conditions as the “terrible” Truth. If you can’t provide back-up evidence for your interpretation then all you’re doing is playing with someone else’s words to make your own ‘ideological’ point. (Just as I’m doing here).
It doesn’t matter to me if life cares, I care. Important is inspiration and the free will not being forced into war by some material interests, in the name of what flag ever.
Has somebody who still guesses and doubts truth is a psycho problem ever accepted himself?
Doubt whether anyone here would disagree with the first paragraph – except perhaps if their country were ever invaded…
No idea exactly what your second paragraph means though.
But, Preetam, you should be careful to make sure you know the context before you start quoting Osho (or anyone else). Taking a random quote and making it fit your own agenda is risking descending to the level of delivering a sort of propaganda. Not a lot of Truth in that, is there, eh?!
Are you the saviour of your corsair queen; else why you tell me where I should be careful?
But I suggest comprehend reading: “What he meant to me was right; those few people serving a structure for their own benefit by keeping humanity in chains.”
Your British corsair queen is destined between others, with it.
Preetam, you haven’t understood my point at all, you seem to prefer to imagine that I’m attacking your precious ‘ideology’.
My point was/is that you took an Osho quote – “the terrible Truth” – out of context and used it for your own purposes, ie to declare yet again how appallingly dreadfully ‘unfair’ are the power structures of this world. And when asked to provide evidence that this was indeed Osho’s own point at the time he said the words, you basically said you couldn’t be bothered to find out.
Do you get my point now?
Evidence is obvious, only not for old Sannyasins stuck in psycho explanations performance, for making good money from it. You again don’t read my text, Satyadeva, I have used the terms: “to me”.
Bring me the evidence that British royals originally are no Pirates?
The evidence I was asking for was evidence that Osho was actually referring to the same issues/situation as you, Preetam, when he said those words, “the terrible Truth”. Can’t you understand that?!
I’m really uninterested in the rest of your historical ideology as I’ve heard it so very many times before. In fact, one could even say your endless repetition of the same points is not only ultimately very boring, it’s in a way rather insulting; insulting the intelligence of the SN readers, as if they’re somehow incapable of understanding what you’re talking about.
Again, I have used the term “to me” don’t know if you know what it means.
Down age hard to calculate but nevertheless given prose alike presentation:
the experiment: the dream:
In regard to attaining to THE CONSCIOUS one needs to distinguish it from CON-SCIENCE :
Ok,ok, all right.
There was ever an experimenting among all for said above.
Victory to the true.
True alone entitles such much victorious.
Uh Oh!!!! Frank is circling his prey!
Now Shri Rajneesh tells that after realising without any gap of time one engages into the same world which is realised as futile.
Many a times this was mentioning itself but have always been remaining a bit afar…
Today I see it as collective sort of work.
There are times when one is demanded to be that of an individual and at other times one is doing the work collectively.
So I suppose there is nothing sort collective the moment a stance is happened in which self is realised collectively .
Never Mind, how is the electric shock therapy going? You must have a huge electricity bill.
Grammar demands more than twelve years….
Boy ! When intend to master grammar must and might are things of past!!
It is a myth, a bullshit myth that disciples love their master unconditionally. Every transaction is based on give and take, promises and deliverance…investment and return…
Investment can be financial, emotional or spiritual…
“Master of the Masters” also built his brand and fed the ultimate greed. Nirvana at discounted price, the offer which happens once in 2500 years!
Shantam, as you believe the world to be so it will appear. Your comment comes across like part serious, part joke,(some will see it as a complete joke) but how can you speak for others? You can only speak for yourself.
You say, ‘It is a myth, a bullshit myth that disciples love their master unconditionally.’ And I wonder if you are really so blind that you cannot see that this could not possibly be entiely true. Perhaps you are one of those poor people that does not love himself, and therefore do not understand what love is. Many disciples have loved their spiritual teacher unconditionally. I would say that is perhaps the only real condition that there is for appreciating the Master’s love, for if he/she is an authentic master their love will be unconditional. This is because the true spiritually realized person is living in a state of unconditional love. It’s just happening without any conditons, overflowing, one could say. All the conditions have already been met for that to come about.
You go on to say, ‘Investment can be financial, emotional or spiritual…’ Yes, that is true for the first two and only for the third if it is pseudo-spiritual. The thing is, Shantam, when it comes to love of a more refined quality, like that encountered when one is fortunate enough to meet and hang out with a deeply spiritual person, it has nothing to do with investment. It has everything to do with sharing. A vast chasm exists between the world of investment and sharing.
Food for contemplation for wise brother Lokesh:
Literacy rate is increasing. Nowadays, so much English is being spoken and written in India, few people were discussing, “During which year, Britain adopted English afer stealing from India?”
For such intrigues a long term structure is needed as I have explained it often.
Satyadeva, everybody knows, the British crown made their wealth out of piracy and Hijacking countries such as India, America and the rest of Commonwealth. Guess that’s why Harry and William are most liked playing Pirate.
Are you someone who just has to have something or someone to fight against, Preetam? And someone who just has to constantly repeat himself, time and time again, to convince others of how ‘right’ he is?
Rather like a politician – or even a fanatical football fan!
Or do you imagine the readers here haven’t quite understood you yet?
Don’t take it personaly, it is just how those people behave on our Planet. And can you stop your projections of fighting on me, I don’t use Bombers in other countries to save my wealth.
I read your words all right, Preetam.
You seem to love dwelling on your enemies, on how terrible they are. I sometimes wonder what you’d do without them….
And if I don’t stop this I’ll be in the same boat, so ‘enough for today!’
I find it strange with the always same blaming of Osho you don’t have any problem, satyadeva. Why is that ok for you, that people constantly blame your dead Master even after so many years not giving peace to him that is cruel? There is a possibility that this commune is same hijacked as perhaps a country. But, same naïve as before 30 years, that is what made it all possible, giving away responsibility and being so naïve till the very end by calling it virtue maybe.
Whom are you, real problems avoiding, lies and blame about Osho quiet supporting somehow?
Rubbish, Preetam, I’ve written positively about Osho, eg only last week, in an exchange with Babasvetlana.
Again I advise: Check your sources!
I mean in general, not you. But, if you are the inserted watchman for me, I will respect your authority, maybe, whether something already a few times is written by me. Telling me I am not respecting the intelligence from the people writing here, pardon me, didn’t know that you are although the Authority for Intelligence.
Why don’t you care if Osho is blamed almost in every theme in meanly ways? If Osho is blamed, I blame the Queen and a few other idi..s, easy.
“Telling me I am not respecting the intelligence from the people writing here, pardon me, didn’t know that you are although the Authority for Intelligence.”
Well, these remarks appear to indicate that indeed you don’t think much of SN readers’intelligence, Preetam!
And why assume something about me simply because I don’t happen to write about every last issue here? Do you think I have nothing better to do? Too much “should” from you, Preetam. (And my “shoulds” are more meaningful than yours – of course!).
If you blame the Queen for anything ‘wrong’ regarding Osho then there just might be something amiss with your reasoning. Why not blame ‘human nature’, you might then be closer to the truth, I suspect?
It tells a lot about how much respect and trust for your self, you are speaking about your self by human nature. Have you ever found some truth about human nature within existence?
Very simple, Preetam: Just take a look at the world created by human beings. That’s a reflection of ordinary human nature, isn’t it?
Perhaps though, you prefer to hold millennia of exploitative ‘conspirators’ responsible for the mess…
I find your explanation far too obsessive, frankly. Sure, there’s elements of truth there, but to claim it explains everything is far-fetched.
Let’s drop our conversation, here. I am not into blaming Humanity or Osho… only a very little group… if they are really Humans, not sure yet.
For me, that’s your error, Preetam. Simplifying everything – convenient, no doubt, but somehow naive.
Of course they’re bloody humans – what else are they?! (PLEASE don’t say ‘lizards’!).
No, it was rhetorical describing something not truly healthy, they themselves prove it by every official action, something abnormal.
SD
He’s been reading David Icke, who recently announced the Isle of Wight is run by lizards.
SD, you like to fix me on a weak spot and making me a stroh doll, very friendly.
I don’t understand this.
At the last I write in the conversation, but pity, that you somehow support it by dilute the theme.
33º People like Broth. Philip and his underwriting banks, do nothing else than creating Strategies how to keep an individual / men away of realizing him self by all possible pressure. They simply infiltrate peoples Mind by their created lies and violence against innocent people.
It’s simple, the guy at the top is responsible – end of story. What part of that don’t you understand… otherwise it’s excuses, excuses, excuses….
a commentary from our favorite author Mark Twain: “When we remember that we are all mad, the mysteries disappear and life stands explained”. Also from our favorite novel/movie, “Alice in Wonderland”: Alice: “I don’t want to go amongst mad people.” The Cat: “Oh, you can’t help that. We’re all mad here. I’m mad . You’re mad.” Alice: “How do you know I’m mad?” The Cat: “You must be you wouldn’t have come here”. Sannyasins: save yourself from those dreadful so-called meditations, and just carry around with you the above quotes. Peek at them whenever in doubt… don’t cost you anything.
this explains it all , with regards to Pune 1, The Ranch, Pune 2 and the current loons at the “Resort”.
Shantam, you are completely mistaken. Some features of English grammar and much of the basic vocabulary in everyday use are derived from West Germanic, the common ancestor of English, Dutch, German and Frisian. Most of the rest of the vocabulary comes from Latin, in many cases by way of French. You can chuck in a wee bit of Norse to complete the picture.
Lokesh, please try to understand what is not said in the words. It will be helpful to understand the unspoken intention.
My post about English is not about the linguistic nitty gritty. It was in response to your post, where you have tried to explain, scholarly, about Master-disciple love.
When a Scottish disciple tells an Indian disciple about Master/disciple´s purity of love, it sounds like Pizza maker telling an Indian about the roundness and softness of Chappatis.
It is not racial prejudice. Prose writers should enjoy poetry but not correcting the poetry.
Due to this habit, Osho´s work has become one such big mistake!
Shantam, please try to understand what is not said in the words. It will be helpful to understand the unspoken intention. In this case a leg pull.
You say, ‘Due to this habit, Osho´s work has become one such big mistake!’ What you mean the arrogance of the Indian mind, thinking as it does that just being born in India guarantees a deep understanding of all things spiritual? What a joke! In many ways India is one of the most unspiritual countries on the planet. Oh yeah, I’ve seen all the plonkers dinging a dong in the temples, the sadhus on the banks of the Ganga, the great philosophers etc, but I’ve also seen the total disregard for people starving on the streets, the filth and the corruption that is so much a part of India’s so called culture. I love the idea of India but the reality is that the place is an absolute mess.
In the old days you rarely saw Indians in the groups. Why? Because their cultural psyche is one of the most repressed in the world. Osho, of course, understood this and that is why it was the way it was. Had he let you lot do a full-on enconter group at least 50% would have went nuts…or should I say more nuts.
Take yourself, Shantam, viewing your comments one can only conclude that they are written by a bigoted racist who harbours illusions of self-importance and gives his self substance by fighting an established order in the resort, menwhile having little idea about what to do if you were to replace that order. In other words a fool. Go change your chuddies.
but it’s their “karma” Lokesh… a very warped view of “karma” by the indians for over 5,000 years. also that’s why at Pune 1, Indian males and females were not allowed to use co-ed shower facilities. It was tried once , early on in Pune 1, but so many Indian swamis were attacking women while they showered, that they had to segregate them. One of the few advantages of being a white, cultured westerner. So much for being so- “spiritually aware”.
This is what Osho becomes unique, Lokesh.
I care a dim whether Osho is master of the masters or he is the one who has broken the chain of life and death.
I love Him for visualising and creating a world where refined Indian values meet refined western values and create a better world. Just a year or so before His death, Osho is heard saying something like, “Look at my commune. Toilet cleaner gets same facilities as someone who sits in the office.”
I am with the last ones to defend corrupt and humanly bankrupt India.
Domain of my work is simply with the work of Osho and that too about the highly cemented yet emotionally low headquarters in Pune. Osho is also heard saying, just weeks ago before his death something like, ” I don´t have any idea how world is functioning beyond the walls of this ashram. You are the blessed ones to be part of that east, which is disappearing very fast.”
India is very welcoming to the guests but not those ones,who become invaders. Present management of Osho Pune has such mind set. Balance sheet in red speaks volumes.
‘Domain of your work!’ Don’t kid yourself, Shantam. Domain of your wet dream more like.
now my suspicions of shantam’s real motives for his SN presence, have come to light. “Domain of my work…”. Narcissism, Shantam, just plain narcissism.
Zorba The Buddha…idea looks quite tempting.
almost like a clearance sale of a shop..where the sign board is…
never before never after
buy one steal one!
Oh dear, now you are back on the solvent sniffing again. Can you see the 10,000 Buddhas floating across the ceiling. Zorba the Buddha? You mean Shantam the Doo-Dah, Lord of the Chuddies.
he should stick to 10,000 sheep he’s counting, that he’d like to fuck. nighty night.
What I am seeing on the forum is even more confirmation on how different the West is from the East. I come from the Middle East and I feel that I have little bit of understanding of both the cultures and their deep psychic traumas.
I don’t feel you can verbally convince each other of much. It reminds me of that film ‘Crush’ … People don’t just meet, they crush into each other.
Vartan
Flies started jumping after reading my sentence, “Domain of my work is simply with the work of Osho and that too about the highly cemented yet emotionally low headquarters in Pune:”
Definitely it can give the impression to uninitiated ones as if i am dreaming to be the next President Obama of osho movement after a political coup.
As i am writing on this site for many years, Osho has not left any successor for the continuity of His ashram but a cooperative society kind of structure, where decisions are taken jointly.
If given a chance, i would like to serve the sannyas community as one of the 20 members, exactly with the same energy as it was from 1987-2000.
When the general run away with their mistress, sometime soldier from the lower ranks comes forward to fill the vacancy.
Shantam, uninitiated as regards what? Senile dementia by the looks of it?
Remember that old and wise saying, ‘you can’t step in the same part of the river twice’? Could you please enlighten me as to how that saying might tie in with statements of yours like, ‘exactly with the same energy as it was from 1987-2000′?
To me this sounds utterly foolish and very far from what your master of masters taught, Really, your no different from old hippies rattling on about how good the acid was back in ’69. Having the likes of you as some sort of low-wattage guiding light sounds like the antithesis of anything Osho ever dreamt. If he suffered from nightmares it would have been dimwits like you that peopled them.
Never mind, Shantam, you are still a good laugh, albeit an unconscious comedian most times. Every good court needs a fool, and you fit the role perfectly. Me? I’d rather play the devil’s advocate.
Check Google for Peter Principle and see what happened to Sheela and the commune
Seeing as how Antar is too lazy to do it, I’ve copied and pasted this for the readers, just in case they find it interesting.
Definition of ‘Peter Principle’
An observation that in an organizational hierarchy, every employee will rise or get promoted to his or her level of incompetence. The Peter Principle is based on the notion that employees will get promoted as long as they are competent, but at some point will fail to get promoted beyond a certain job because it has become too challenging for them. Employees rise to their level of incompetence and stay there. Over time, every position in the hierarchy will be filled by someone who is not competent enough to carry out his or her new duties.
as Dirty Harry(Callahan) (1973) said: “A man’s gotta know his limitations”… women as well…so can be said for humans in general. The phrase, “being incompetent”, is a phrase created by the corporate world.. strictly a capitalistic mentality and attitude, it completely ignores the fact all people has different levels of ability- given by nature, including but not limited to genetic limitations. It’s completely natural for instance for one person to be able to do calculus equations quite easily, yet most people can’t… which explains why most people aren’t mathematicians, or professors of physics, same can be said for chemists, biologists, even farmers, most people don’t/couldn’t plant and grow a dandelion weed.
So this “Peter Principle” is just a bunch of cow dung, created by capitalists working in the Wall Street or “the City”(known in London). “Every employee will eventually rise or get promoted to his or her level of incompetence”. Now how stupid, and uncaring, is that? Sounds like people are just looked at by other people as a herd of cattle on their way to the slaughterhouse.
Thanks Lokesh, but there is more to say about it;
The book is from 1969, reprinted in 2011
Osho quotes it, (see peter principle/osho/google)
it must be in his library, with remarks.
You can read my essay (in Dutch) on;
Vrienden van Osho/Actueel, or on my facebook
(in bad German) Berlin-Rajneeshpuram 1983/84.
Soon on Oshonews!
it still doesn’t mean a thing that osho quotes it… use your noggin, dutchman… “you ain’t much , if you’re dutch…”
Or do you like to continue our conversation, Satyadeva?
Otherwise keep going here by accepted blaming of Osho and Humanity, strange… we are those Humans, friends.
Ha, Sannyasins think they are already the better Humans. Thereby the arrogant / ignorance of many professed itself by the (rather injured) statements about Osho and Men. This arrogance creates distance and lonely people seeking for some excitement, but 33º confused, hart to watch and keeping quite. That is a old method of separating and many are in that trap caught, perhaps.
No, I’m not interested at all in carrying on our conversation, Preetam, it’s pointless. It’s rather like trying to talk to a machine that just goes on repeating the same old programme. Ultimately thoroughly boring.
How old are you, I wonder? As the way you seem to divide the world of people into a few guilty, powerful ‘baddies’ (all apparently conspiring together) and a vast number of innocent but powerless ‘goodies’ is the sort of simplistic viewpoint common to the young or relatively young, who construct such models to help fire themselves up with ‘revolutionary’ zeal. And are impelled to keep on and on broadcasting them in the belief – sincerely held, of course – that they hold the keys to the truth of the world.
But after a fairly short while, to me your repetitiousness sounds like nothing much other than sloganising propaganda.
Preetam, my diagnosis is that you are suffering from a severe case of guru-itis. The cure? Time, I suppose….
It is not about any assignment of guilt, and I have absolute not any revolutional Ideas. Guess SD it’s a left over within you. Just reflect the Idea being a suppressor of truth, with the will saving wealth through the times by controlling masses, how would you do it? By truth and love? Guess the tool would be War, Pain, Religion and a now a confusing Therapy often dividing ones self wholeness, dignity into self doubt, by cutting the self into pieces, instead of peace and celebration.
For me is not anything more horrifying than Christian conditioned but New Age Idealizing, materialistic western seeker? Those character has identified the whole Humanity as guilty, perhaps the new originally sin of being, Human. Such a way we have no more limits for hurting each others, the last respect is destroyed. That is what I classify being a fool.
Preetam says:
“For me is not anything more horrifying than Christian conditioned but New Age Idealizing, materialistic western seeker? ….. ……. That is what I classify being a fool.”
How about the part where everybody is a potential buddha and should be treated as such … ?
Vartan
Buddha nature to me is what the true self is. Not actually extraordinary if man is left in natural Freedom and respected such he truly is, “him” self.
Preetam, you don’t seem to get it. SD is not in the least bit interested in your marriage proposal!
My partner put me onto this amazing Czech animator. When it all falls apart you pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start all over again …
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Nice to see Satyadeva writing in assertive way.
“No, I’m not interested at all……….. Ultimately thoroughly boring”
Shantam, you’ll be pleased to hear that you can now add ‘Patronizing Twat’ to your personal nomenclature.
Vartan says: “the ranch was by no means perfect but it represented hope. And that feeling of hope is what people become nostalgic about.” Ok. So here’s Osho on Hope -
“… Hope is not the friend, remember; it is the foe. It is because of hope that you go on postponing. But you will remain the same tomorrow also, and tomorrow also you will hope for some future. And this way it can go on for eternity, and you can go on missing. Stop postponing. And who knows what the future is going to reveal to you? There is no way to know about it. It is an opening; all alternatives are open. What is really going to happen, nobody can predict…” From Darkness to Light.
roman says:
28 November, 2012 at 12:23 pm
Vartan says: “the ranch was by no means perfect but it represented hope. And that feeling of hope is what people become nostalgic about.” Ok. So here’s Osho on Hope -
“… Hope is not the friend, remember; it is the foe. It is because of hope that you go on postponing. …”
As it happens, on that, I agree. Hope is a drug, and somebody took our drug away. But who is postponing? Not I. Are you?
Vartan
Thankyou.
Roman :how about quoting osho about AIDS/HIV? he was wrong about that, amongst other things he spoke about… lay off his quotes even for one day… use your own noggin for a change
Baba,
Nothing important comes from instructions.
With regards to quoting Osho you must be confusing me with someone else. I don’t do it on a regular basis. In this case the post was pointed out to me and I thought it was appropriate.
Now I don’t want to instruct you but you are free to quote Osho where you think he is wrong or has said something stupid. It might make for an interesting discussion.
I don’t think the editors are into heavy censhorship when it comes to criticising Osho do you?
‘Abandon hope all ye who enter here.’ Do I hear hell’s bells or is it Dante at the door?
Lokesh,
Apparently hope is nostalgia and apparently we need it.
So let us all sing ‘Land of Hope and Glory’ with Vera.
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Lokesh,
I couldn’t find the Goodies version but how about a stirring Scottish Ballad with Hope? We could also sing ‘ Deutshland, Deutshland Uber Alles.’
No need for hope, back to the false reallity:
The British Idea of a Cordon Sanitaire, by Lord Gilbert, former defense Minister. Threaten militant Afghan and Pakistani forces along the border with Enhanced Radiation Reduced Blast (Neutron Bomb). Lot of radiation and low blast action, sweet Mason guy and not the Humanity at its whole.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/26/lord-gilbert-neutron-bomb_n_2190607.html
Well Preetam, unlike the pessimists on this site I don’t believe we are doomed. No matter what bombs are dropped you just duck and cover.
Unfortunately some folk see the glass half empty.
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tough to “duck and cover” from H- Bombs, NO? you’re still thinking this is the Battle of Britain. so nostalgic for those days.. didn’t someone just write about “nostalgia”?
Baba,
Even you could get nostalgic about turtles. I also get nostalgic about Molly.
Confession and Reconciliation. Your turn. Confess.
roman: only if i sit in the “comfy chair”.
roman says: … Unfortunately some folk see the glass half empty.
I have decided that the glass is twice the size it needs to be and thus causing all sorts of problems with the philosophers.
Vartan
The absolute is not much of a thing.
I’ve seen it here sometimes. Very small.
Bronk.
You’re simply a complete fool, Preetam, to cite ‘Masons’ in such a case. Why not blame the whole edifice of scientific materialism, built over many centuries, together with human ignorance? Why not blame ordinary, ignorant human nature, run by aberrant emotions, esp by fear?
Sweety, you have no Idea
And sorry, that it hurts your British Ego, but the world could have been much better without.
What said Plato unto fools, even it is maybe not highest truth.
“Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehoods school. And the one man that dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool”
I assure you it’s not about my “British Ego”, Preetam, it’s about your narrow, simplistic view of human history.
Meanwhile, how about taking a long, hard look at your own self (note the small ‘s’) and see whether you’re in any way merely ‘reacting’ to being a citizen of a formerly conquered, colonised country.
Few people are more stupid than those who really believe they know all the answers. Dividing humanity into a few ‘baddies’ (the most powerful) and a vast number of ‘goodies’ is just childish. Perhaps you’ve been watching too many Bollywood dramas?!
I
preetam,
the world would be better without the british ego?
are you german?
the poor old krauts,they turned up in poona one only to find that god did speak english after all!
and had a british girlfriend,doctor,dentist,bodyguard and chief disciple,just to rub it in…
however hard the krauts surrendered(and they had already had plenty of practice)they always seem to lose out.
well,some things are obviously divinely ordained.
no wonder folks like preetam turned to conspiracy theories to find some solace and compensation in blaming poor old prince philip,the queen and james mason.
no,the british ego is just fine as it is, without any input from jumped-up foreigners who just cant get used to coming second, thankyou very much.
i suggest you bend over and take a good thrashing from that thoroughly decent english chappie…good old satya deva,a man whose honesty,integrity and taste for for cold showers, flagellation, correct grammar and proper no-nonsense religion without any of that sentimental oriental jiggery-pokery
makes me proud to hail from the land of hope and glory……
A truly excellent post, frank, each line veritably dripping with the highest truth – well, the best that you could manage, I suppose…
Not so sure about certain aspects of your well-meant testimonial for ‘yours truly’, but never mind, the time for you to learn all about ‘projection’ will come, eventually…(no need to be impatient)…
Not so sure about your final line though…I strongly suggest you go back and re-read the recent post on ‘Hope’…
Still, all in all, a fine piece of work in the Great Cause of keeping ‘Johnny Foreigner’ in his place. Well done, sir!
PS: Be extra careful with that “oriental jiggery-pokery” – I think you know what I mean, I won’t embarrass you while ladies are present….
the people with the even bigger ego that the brits or the krauts, were the Mongols. their empire made both the brits’ and krauts’ empires seem tiny in comparison and they were bloodthirsty brutes. Say “no” to them when they knocked on your door and not only you’d be homeless, but raped, and then filleted after they got through their love feast ritual with you…Just ask the chinese – 20 million murdered.
when you take into account it happened in the 13th century and the population was way smaller, it makes the holocaust of WWII look like a night out in London’s red light district. So, you Aryan lovers, just take a deep breath and admit that you Anglo-Saxon thugs ain’t much compared to our Asian, yak-herding brethren.
Preetam says:
Sweety, you have no Idea
And sorry, that it hurts your British Ego, but the world could have been much better without.
Coming on a Britishy forum and talking like that is like going to a synagogue and giving a nazi salute. You need to drop all that crap and get an English girlfriend (as recommended by the best people).
Vartan
sure we can “blame” those things, but how can we blame, “the hand we were dealt with”…blame “God” if you want to lay blame anywhere, for creating this mess in the first place.
Solution for the problem, do not come from blaming. I would mean it comes only from realizing and understanding our self.
Roman, we are doomed
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Vartan
Vartan,
What should we do?
roman says:
Vartan, What should we do?
You can start by finding me a sannyasin who knows lots about computers.
roman says:
Vartan, ……Did you know that someone stole my boots at the ranch? Size 9.
It was probably me.
Vartan
“You can start by finding me a sannyasin who knows lots about computers.”
Try Yahoo answers. Just ask the question on the forum. I’ve fixed a few problems that way.
Vartan,
This is true reconciliation. Your sins are washed away. The confessional aspect is what I love about this site. There’s something erotic about it for all readers.
Did anyone thieve chuddies, knickers or bloomers? Now is the time to own up.
Vartan,
Maybe the residents and the visitors were wearing different coloured glasses and so the guns didn’t look the same? Did you know that someone stole my boots at the ranch? Size 9.
An anecdote from Yoruba-land, (West Africa)which is told of the trickster divinity Edshu.
One day, this odd god came walking along a path between two fields. “He beheld in either field a farmer at work and proposed to play the two a turn. He donned a hat that was on the one side red but on the other white, green before and black behind [these being the colors of the four World Directions: i.e., Edshu was a personification of the Center, the axis mundi, or the World Navel] ; so that when the two friendly farmers had gone home to their village and the one had said to the other, ‘Did you see that old fellow go by today in the white hat?’ the other replied, ‘Why, the hat was red.’ To which the first retorted, ‘It was not; it was white.’ ‘But it was red,’ insisted the friend, ‘I saw it with my own two eyes.’ ‘Well, you must be blind,’ declared the first. ‘You must be drunk,’ rejoined the other. And so the argument developed and the two came to blows. When they began to knife each other, they were brought by neighbors before the headman for judgment. Edshu was among the crowd at the trial, and when the headman sat at a loss to know where justice lay, the old trickster revealed himself, made known his prank, and showed the hat. ‘The two could not help but quarrel,’ he said. ‘I wanted it that way. Spreading strife is my greatest joy.’
From
Hero with a Thousand Faces.
Joseph Campbell.
Arpana,
I like that. Those old tricksters. Back home I always thought Hamlet was a bit of a trickster.
Maybe an old tickster stole my boots.
They are brown without laces and zip up. They have fur in them to keep your feet warm. That’s how I kept my feet warm. I guess they are keeping someones feet warm? They are sturdy.
Objects are amazing.
Don’t you love Vincent’s ‘Peasant Boots’. Now there’s a painting with soul and depth. Once went to the Van Gogh museum in Amsterdam and it blew my mind. ‘Starry, Starry Night.’ What a beautiful man.
Read his letters? He was a prolific reader.
Warhol’s ‘Red Slippers’ are obviously referencing Vincent. Surface versus depth? What do you think? The postmodern and the modern? Complex terms in the world of art.
Modernism 1880′s – 1930′s?
Postmodernism 1930′s – 1990′?
I believe the term Postmodernism was used as early as the start of the twentieth century? Chopin and Cage?
Trust the painting is going well? Osho a mixture of the modern and postmodern? There is depth , old traditional discourses, and surface. We have dada in many ways. A bit like Duchamps ‘Fountain.’ Which reminds me I’ll take a piss. Prostate good, touch wood. Take care.
Vincent’s ‘Peasant Boots’.
Yes. I agree. Fine painting.
Trickster is one of the Archetypes that manifests through Osho I reckon.
Arpana,
I agree with you. I guess some will dispute whether the trickery was entirely conscious or not. I’m not too fussed but the experts will no doubt work it out. I came across psychiatrist who wrote about Osho and the Dionysian. An interesting thought but perhaps another Western imposition? What’s it matter! Dionysian, Shmisian!
roman says:
…… I came across psychiatrist who wrote about Osho and the Dionysian. An interesting thought but perhaps another Western imposition? What’s it matter! Dionysian, Shmisian!
To which I would add that he was Apollonian too. His mouthpiece was his instrument. His speech was poetic. I think it was the sannyasins that were Dionysian rather than Osho. (he did look a bit like a goat tho … oops, sorry Resort)
Vartan
i`m never really convinced by this “archetype” business.
in this case,the yoruba,a highly ritualistic and ordered people ,faced with the occurrence of disorder in their world,attribute it to a god edshu.
so when a fight kicks off between two farmers and their social order breaks down, the folks can look at each other with a knowing smile,nod and say:
“aye aye,old edshus at it again”
and have a feeling that they have understood, accepted and dealt with the disorder.
so “archetype” is a modern way of saying “one of the gods”.
but do you really need either?
“tendency” or “possibilty” are probably just as accurate.
in a dramatic view of the universe we can say scrooge is the archetypal miser, caesar is the archetypal emperor or romeo and juliet or leila and majnu are the archetypal lovers,but that sounds to me much like saying that that particular red looks very red or that jasmine flower smells really jasminy.
so,is there really a significance to the idea of “archetypes”other that the satisfaction of creating a metaphysics for its own sake?
i cant see it.
Archetype of liking the sound of his own voice manifesting.
arpana,
maybe.
but what is an “archetype”in your estimation?
Frank says.
‘Arpana,
maybe.
but what is an “archetype”in your estimation?’ (Top rejoinder old bean. )
Ha! So you admit the charge!
Buggar of a question.
Have a very strong sense of what an archetype is, but defining it. Hmm!!
Roles is in there somewhere.
Character in stories. Books. Films etc. with characteristics that crop up repeatedly in varying stories.
Robin Hood was for example hero to lefties. lol. Villain to Tories, but also trickster..
You are trickster, in that you are such a mischief maker, magician in that you are so good with words for example.
We are influenced by stories growing up. Drawn to varying characters, playing out varying roles, archetypes.
Seems Archetypes are idealized Ideas brought into matter. Perhaps an Apotheosis creates an Archetypes or a Hero useful to proof divine nature and authority.
Arpana,
Your long reply is a bloody good one. There’s no empirical proofs of archetypes as Frank has pointed out but I sure laugh when I read some of his posts. Which is what matters.
same here, i had to chase down and demand my boots back.. tough to do when you’re wading in clay muck during a downpour.
Baba, you’ve shattered my ideal. I thought you were amongst the stars.
why not sing the Who’s song- “My Generation”- “Hope i die before i get old”. you missed your chance, Roman.
Baba,
You obviously care and want to help posters. You have put much thought into these lines.
But what are they good for? What can one do with them? What can the post do for one? What can one make it mean?
‘Not I’ – Perhaps you?
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Nothing I know matters more
Than what never happened.
John Burnside, ‘Hearsay.’
Lokesh says:
‘Abandon hope all ye who enter here.’ Do I hear hell’s bells or is it Dante at the door?
Is that interiority I am seeing being externalised, or poetic license? hehe.
Vartan
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martyn’s just pissed cause he gave all his money to SN, and now his ego is bigger and more demented than ever… “Full of spin meisters”, says Martyn. He also says,”Everyone at SN is a quack, no cure found on SN is gonna cure my ills”. All because he signed on the dotted line where it said: “Sign here you FOOL”.
Let this be a lesson to all of you.. you don’t want to end up like Martyn or Shantam, for that matter, both are interchangeable.
bbsv …I demand an investigation…..sometimes I wake up in the morning and go ‘ achhh blechhh sckktum’ with a bit of locked throat spittle whilst singing” aiie eeee osho garam masalaaaaa ji ” in a nasal whinge…. does that mean ? could it be that ? you mean I ?
yes ?
YES?
oh deary deary me…
gosh…how did you spot that virtual camouflage I have tried years to foster..oh well back to my day job…
and as regards the finest of England’s Ye Olde Jestingge and Mockery Tournament, then ahemm ….bbsv may I explain to you and your fellow earnest literal members of the colonies there, who left Plymouth sound here with their turkeys…
As per your proseworthy missive and to your fellow tall-hatted brethren :
My apologies : I hear the sound of a satire bursting and my exhaustive joke backfiring…..must be those cheap American cars that are designed to fall apart as soon as they hit a punctuation mark at the end of the jesting ride…..I must have a look under the bonnet and see what is really going on with all those confusing innuendoes that have sent poor old BBSV in the wrong direction in his wobbly charabang.
Ps …for your info…I have a collection of excellent IOU’s from SN which I have since invested in their new radar-detecting incoming-joke-misinterpretation-elimination software which as you can see above , works a treat. I got the idea from Hawkeye on MASH.
now i must go as I’m off to the betting shop before they close and I have a hot tip….put five dollars on the 2.20 race with Jockey BBSV and his young gelding pony Foot-in-your-Mouth…its a cert…
oh deary deary me….
nd while we are all considering living together in a thriving community as a form of evolutionary consciousness then consider that it was not all that long ago that we were one with nature ..literally..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20523950
Vy vud anyvun vont to schtopp zis zort of deep sharing between zvei members of ze oppozit sex (und species.). vot is ze verld coming to !..but i suppose zey shtill zink its owkay to serve my liddle cute friend up as zauzage mit fries…….( ‘schniff ) ..oh vell its back to ze inflatable dolly i zuppoze
“I know nothing, I see nothing”. Sergeant Schultz
For Osho sannyasins like me or us, i have a new generic word.
Are we enlightend?
I doubt.
Are we groping in darkness?
No, we are EnBulbed!
Most people again cry more for Barabas, perhaps that’s why the Ranch could not work.
Barnabas, of course.
i`m definitely rooting for barabas…
there`s only one barabas
and he`s gonna kick your ass
theres only one barabas
and hes gonna f**k your ranch…
ba-ra-bas… bring him on
ba-ra-bas…bring him on
barabas barabas oi oi oi …
The one who learned the biggest lesson from Rajneeshpuram was Osho.
They/we/it killed him.
Vartan
OsHOHoLics AnonyMous
NewsLetter.
South East and London Annual General Meeting
December 2012
Themes this year include the lecture series;
If I had a Ranch.
My Ranch and I
Me and My Guru’s Ranch.
Reservations about the Indians.
Oregon and her Ranches.
The Ranch and the Rustling of my Mind
What a load of Bullocks.
This year’s annual general meet-up to include debate by Madame Betty Svetbaba of the Theosopalcohical Society:
The Ranch .. What A Missed Chance for a Booze Up.
Followed by Tea, Cakes and Drinks.
There will be a book stall hosted as usual by The Ibiza Chapter (aka the Swimming Swamis) providing some of this year’s best sellers including books about that period which they have kindly agreed to provide even though they weren’t there at the time.
Veggy Recipes from Oregonian Communes of the ’80′s :Ranch, Brunch and Munch.
Nostalgic memories and Chants of the North American Indian Rajwash Tribe: the Shouldacoulda-Oughta’s.
Rolls Royce’s I have Loved : Build your own collection of Pull Out and Keep Iconic Devices for Changing Consciousness.
and
Following complaints last year of a mad rush for the exit after a presentation of slides hosted by the Bexhill Branch of the OshOhoholics , the committee has decided to provide cloakroom facilities where you can leave your hangups prior to the nostalgic event.
The Cloakroom assistant this year will be the ever reliable Frank and his coterie of helpers who will also help you find any long forgotten memories and associated soundtracks.
Our Volunteer staff has recruited far and wide this year and have worked bravely to provide us with all facilities at little or no cost and certainly little or no interest charged. Keeping our limited budget and attention well within expectations.Our thanks go to Mrs P.Reetam and her 3 lovely daughters Shanta,… Canta… and Wontam.
The afternoon proceedings will be kicked off by a charity football match hosted by the Oregonian Wonderers…. and this year they will be playing the Oshoholics dedicated team of ponderers and growth mechanics all the way from Pune 1.. and the winners for the last 35 years; Koregaon Athletic FC with their captain The Doctor, whom this year, the Oregonian team will be hoping to make a bunch of sorry losers.Some hope eh?
Kindly tear off a strip and send it with your version of events to the organisers.
( This year’s bicycle hire facilities kindly provided in association with Guru -Gaga Productions, Nepal.)
Martyn is “Enbulbed”.
India, Pritish Nandy got a scoop. He was the first Indian journalist who went to Rajneeshpuram and published a cover story on Osho.
I think he also got personal time with Osho for interview which was the highlight of that cover story.
The other highlight was two page spread, naked layout of Sheela and mayor of Rajneeshpuram, nude bathing at Krishnamurti lake.
As i have read somewhere, Osho instructed Sheela for such photo shoot. We can imagine, how provocative Osho was and how compasionate to shake the frozen Indian mind set. If India is opening everyday a bit more, one of the first to bring this liberation is Osho, osho and no one else.
I used to collect all the magazines where Osho was mentioned. This illustrated weekly of India was really a prize collection. With time when i went to Pune for 2 weeks and spend years and years, these magazines went lost.
In case, some friend has still that memorable issue, please scan me the above mentioned photo. I wish to use it for an article, ” Naturisst way of life around Osho.”
Decades ago, i think it was 1983-84, Editor of Illustraed weekly of India, Pritish Nandy got a scoop. He was the first Indian journalist who went to Rajneeshpuram and published a cover story on Osho.
I think he also got personal time with Osho for interview which was the highlight of that cover story.
The other highlight was two page spread, naked layout of Sheela and mayor of Rajneeshpuram, nude
bathing at Krishnamurti lake.
As i have read somewhere, Osho instructed Sheela for such photo shoot. We can imagine, how provocative Osho was and how compasionate to shake the frozen Indian mind set. If India is opening everyday a bit more, one of the first to bring this liberation is Osho, osho and no one else.
I used to collect all the magazines where Osho was mentioned. This illustrated weekly of India was really a prize collection. With time when i went to Pune for 2 weeks and spend years and years, these magazines went lost.
In case, some friend has still that memorable issue, please scan me the above mentioned photo. I wish to use it for an article, ” “Naturist way of life around Osho.”
martyn`s right.
listening to
“living in the past”
by retro tull on continuous play has its limits…..
frankly,you can stick the ranch up your archetype……
wake me up when theres a new topic.
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a better scoop of what went on at the ranch was done last year by the “Oregonian”, a 5 part series… i just read it… even some more startling revelations about sheela’s gang.. just google it.