What happened in America with me is nothing new
It has always been happening. You have to understand one thing, that whenever there is somebody who has a message for you, which goes against your traditional ways, your orthodoxy, your conditioning, then your whole priesthood, your politicians, the status quo, all the vested interests are against such a man. For the simple reason because he is a disturbance. If people listen to him there is going to be a revolution. And that revolution will change everything. It will throw those who are in power. It will throw those priests who are dominating you.
Naturally those who are in power would not like it. It is better to finish one man rather than to loose all their vested interests. Why they crucified Jesus? He has not committed any crime. He was a simple man. He has not done anything illegal. But why they insisted to kill him? For the simple reason he was upsetting the whole society. He was saying things which go against the past, which go against the old, which bring some new light, which take you into the unknown. He is opening doors for progress. And there are people who don’t want any progress. They want a static society, a dead society. And these people are in power.
Naturally, every Buddha has to go to jail, and every Buddha has to be killed or crucified.”
Osho
When Buddhas are prosecuted, their pain becomes the seeds for the new kind of flowering. This was always the case.
Why it will NEVER happen with Osho?
Because His closest disciples have driven the tractor over the planted Seeds!
Forget flowering, forget Jungle!
PS: It sounds cynical, ironic, negative. But I stay with the diagnosis. Under the silk clothes and anti- -aging cream, cancer virus of mind is making the Osho movement eaten from Inside.
I say, old bean, don’t you mean ‘persecuted’?
I suppose you could mean “prosecuted” though, come to think of it….
Google “Rajneeshpuram: An American Experience”, to be aired on OPB Nov.19th 8pm (Pacific time)…Oregonians can’t seem to let go of the past.
What is that ?
Yet are the Oregonians not done with the thing. I would be not just interested rather more. Rest on getting replied by you.
Tried to google but didnt get much but some curiosity is created and I use a small mobile with very small browser. Would be keen indeed to see more at this American experience of Rajneeshpuram whatsoever .
Corrections are always needed. If we ignore them, we become rigid like Jayesh. Jayesh means diamond among Osho sannyasins therefore resisting the process of refinement.
Thanks, Satya Deva, for showing the difference between ‘persecuted’and “prosecuted”.
So the modified commentary:
When Buddhas, Buddhas with rebellious streak are persecuted, their pain becomes the seeds for the new kind of flowering. This was always the case.
Why it will NEVER happen with Osho?
Because His closest disciples have driven the tractor over the planted Seeds!
Forget flowering, forget Jungle!
‘Oregonians can’t seem to let go of the past,’ says Baba. It is in fact a universal problem. The problem being that people who are too identified with the past are not very open to the present and all that entails. The past also seems to be something that many sannyasins can’t let go of in relation to Osho and days gone by.
What Osho says in the above quote might well be true, but that does not mean he was a Christ-like figure prosecuted for his particular brand of new message. Osho was prosecuted because the organization, of which he was the figurative head of, broke lots of American laws. It’s as simple as that. Right from the start, the idea of building a massive commune on land zoned for a handful of people to reside on was a big mistake, and so on down the line. You can’t go around poisoning the citizens of a country and not expect there to be serious repercusions from such a wicked and foolhardy act. This has nothing to do with opening the doors for progress and everything to do with aggresive and dangerous behaviour.
Jesus might not have commited any crimes but Osho and his sannyasins certainly did.
That I view a bit different. For instance, the figurative head of the British Commonwealth is the Queen. Why don’t they make her responsible for the committed crimes within their commune?
And for me, Jesus did a crime within the Romans’ eyes, poisoning people’s minds with the frightful truth. According to the ruling, the most fearsome of all crimes is Truth. The rest of the profane is wanted, even helpful, by selling untruth and creating confusion.
Yet one aspect of all this you always overlook, Preetam, which is that the ‘wicked world’ perhaps exists to test us at every turn, to see whether our so-called ‘realisations’ actually hold up under pressure.
Also, of course, it has the very useful function of providing us with the perfect means to feel righteous indignation at how dreadful, how exploitative, how ignorant are our perceived enemies ‘out there’. And therefore, how ‘good’, just, wise we are in comparison. You yourself make full use of this excellent facility, do you not?!
I don’t know what is the problem asking for responsibility of the Queen for commited crimes within her commune. If sannyasins ask according to the common rationality for punishment of Osho as a Sannyasin?
Satyadeva, in between I am asking myself on which bole you ride.
Your point, Preetam, is a clever-sounding one, but just utterly impractical nonsense.
For one thing, your definition of a ‘crime’ would be rather different to that of the Courts, I imagine.
I remember an injunction I saw as grafitti in the 60′s: ‘Prosecute Yourself!’ Ever thought of doing just that, Preetam?
I don’t understand your last two sentences, esp the word “bole”.
Hyperbole?
Or bolenath?
Or just plain bollocks?
he should have choose frank as manager of political relations with the outside.It seems he know better than Osho how the real system works.Why he didn’t choose you?
It is nothing personal, just against humanity as a whole. The warning if man rebels, he will be dead, crucified or at least alive sealed. What else Jesus on the cross is supposed to express, than a warning onto Humanity not to rebel against the ruler?
You want to know who is preparing it at the borderline of light and shade..guess no.
I don’t know about the other Buddhas but this Buddha wasn’t persecuted because of his buddhahood but because of the friends he kept. Didn’t it go something like, by your friends we shall know you?
I often wonder on what might have happened if the ranch didn’t collapse the way it did and the city went on to grow way-up the hills…with poisoners in our midst we would probably all be dead now, poisoned during one of the festivals.
And how’s your day?
Vartan
The guy in the pic to the right of Osho is the man from UNCLE, isn`t he?
Ilya Kurryachin, I presume. Osho was more of a Napoleon Solo. The man from Bunkle.
looks more like Jon Voight to me.
Frank says:
The guy in the pic to the right of Osho is the man from UNCLE, isn`t he?
I don’t remember him with a gay tache….
Vartan
“Man from UNCLE”,Frank? Maybe…
Did you mean Napoleon Solo, or Illya Kuryakin..? Could be…
But the guy on the far right looks suspiciously like Sid Caesar.
The dude on the far left looks quite pissed, like someone rousted him in the wee hours from his bed by a phone-call to do this gig, but he’s far from pleased about the whole thing and is not trying to hide it…
and the bro in the background with the aviator shades, I think could be a rhythm guitar player from the Eagles or the Flying Burrito Brothers, maybe,
trying to pick up a bit of extra cash between gigs….
Sid Caesar and The Flying Burrito Brothers is pretty good.
Some say the guy in the middle can change your life with a mere look.
‘The thousand stories have come round to one again,
Arabian night, Our Gods pursue their fight,
What fatal flowers of darkness bloom from seeds of light.’
Grateful Dead. ‘Blues for Allah’.
Parmartha, this thread is not just about persecution of Buddhas but about persecution of Osho, your master, our master.
Being the insider of that time, can you suggest any other way out?
What American administration should have done?
What Sannyasins would have done, what Osho should have done?
As we see, the setback of those days broke the back of the camel!
The camel is out, he cried. And in that moment….
Shantam Prem says:
…Can you suggest any other way out?
…What Osho should have done?
Osho should never have called in the authorities. The issues that arose should have been dealt with internally. Osho knew a lot of stuff, but he didn’t know politics. That can easily be seen by the kind of people He had representing Him in the US.
Vartan
Spot on re Osho and practical politics, Vartan. India was far more his element, but he was out of his depth in America, in this respect (like any Eastern master, perhaps?).
But I don’t know, things just might have already gone too far to effectively deal with internally.
Does anyone remember him saying in discourse at the (July) 1985 festival something about him maybe going to jail and commenting “it would be an interesting experience”, or some such comments?
At the same time in commenting about the share-a-home thing he said something like “that’s nothing, wait for the next thing I`ve got lined up.”
No doubt it was all edited out of the transcripts at some point.
Also, anyone remember that one, also at the same time, where he said something like, “I have been told there is someone here who wants to kill me”? Then he said, waving his finger, “Watch out, I know your tent number.”
It was a variation on the classic old schoolteacher number, “I know who did it, I`m just waiting for him to own up.”
As the one who had committed the offence, aged 10, I was street enough to know that the teacher was bluffing and I was safe.
I would imagine a CIA hitman wouldn’t have been too phased either.
Yes, he used bullock cart politics in a jet age, for sure.
Which reminds me. people forget things.
At that same festival, the air force flew a fighter jet right over the Buddha Hall during discourse. He had to stop talking for a moment. I can’t remember, but I think he was synchronistically talking about “idiots” at the time.
Anyway, it was pretty intimidating stuff. Anyone remember that?
No, I don’t remember that,
but then again, I wasn’t there.
I do, though, remember some rather unusual, synchronistic moments
on this website, and looks like deja vu all over again.
Thanks for replying.
I definitely remember those things but I dont know if anyone else does.
Btw, I see Oshobob has become Bob.
Is that censorship?
Or have you just lost your enlightenment?
All this stuff about persecution of the Buddhas! Enlightenment or not, according to Ikkyu, even if Buddha himself kneeled at my deathbed,
he wouldn’t be worth shit.
All these guns and plans. Reminds me of a species of monkey, living in groups, of whom the males act as guards: they sit up at the outposts, facing outside and presenting their erect genital organs.
At least they couldn’t blow you up. Who’s more developed? And someone posted that Osho wanted to put us in touch with the human. You’ve gotta laugh.
roman says:
” … And someone posted that Osho wanted to put us in touch with the human. You’ve gotta laugh.
If you are truly laughing, then it worked, because you cannot laugh and think at the same time. That is the purpose of the mystic rose meditation.
When I was on the ranch in late ’83 one of the guards was holding a huge anti-aircraft machine gun on a drive-by. The gun looked bigger than him and he seemed to have a problem getting it through the crowds. I honestly thought that the guns were just another device. When in America you get guns. Isn’t that what humans do? In the UK we were having a nice cup of tea (and biscuits).
Vartan
i was there in mid-late ’83 and later and for all of the drive-bys… Uzis -yes; huge anti- aircraft sized guns- NO!! Stop your over-exaggeration, or just don’t make shit up– were you actually ever at the ranch?
babasvetlana says:
i was there in mid-late ’83 and later and for all of the drive-bys… Uzis -yes; huge anti- aircraft sized guns- NO!! Stop your over-exaggeration, or just don’t make shit up– were you actually ever at the ranch?
Are you telling me I imagined it? I remember thinking, “What is he going to do with that?” As it happens I like guns. The carrier was walking with it next to Osho’s car. It looked like something that should have been on a tripod.
Vartan
Vartan,
Well I remember some one carrying a gun which looked pretty big but the guy was pretty small. Perhaps he was a ‘midget’ who came on set after a Fellini film? I vaguely remember speaking to an English man who was called Bodhi or something like that and he mentioned that he had to carry a gun for driveby but he couldn’t use it. He wasn’t very tall. It is hard for us old folk to remember details as Winston found out but if you buy me a few pints it might come back. Maybe the documentary coming up will reveal all. Lets hope this important problem can be settled.
not once did i see an “anti-aircraft” sized gun.. maybe those Uzi’s had you mesmerized , since you admit to liking guns.. maybe when you saw the guard’s Uzi you thought to yourself- “gee i wish i was loaded to bare like that swami”). Check all the photos, and there are hundreds , and you see for yourself , they are carrying Uzi’s, even the local hillbillies complain about them, ask others who were there, or don’t you remember?
Maybe its a fantasy world you created, since you never were there. Paint another pretty picture, will you, and keep it real this time?
Another device…you have to be joking, or do you really believe that doublespeak?
When in America you get guns. Isn’t that what humans do? Well, in answer to your question, no, not entirely…that’s what the stupid people do. Personally, I hate the things.
VIRGINIA MASONIC HERALD
April 1989
Freemasonry came to the new world in large part with the military Lodges attached to various British regiments. Thus, it is that almost from the very beginning to this country Freemasonry and the military have gone hand in hand through our history.
Quelle: http://www.masonicworld.com/education/files/mar05/military_and_freemasonry.htm
Don’t think those people are not spiritual, they are since thousands of years.
Master Mason ritual Monitor for a Worshipful Master of the Grand Lodge of South Carolina:
It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practised in the very bosom of pagan darkness…to teach the immortality of the Soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence.
By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution…and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads [us to the honorable and virtuous maturity, and that] the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss.
The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.
same with gorillas.. when there are no females around to fuck, the subordinate males bend over and let the dominate males fuck them in the ass… sounds like a typical sannyasin encounter group.
babasvetlana says:
same with gorillas.. when there are no females around to fuck, the subordinate males bend over and let the dominate males fuck them in the ass… sounds like a typical sannyasin encounter group.
The name babasvetlana makes you sound like a female … which implies that you couldn’t possibly know what an all male encounter group gets up to. True or false? What do female gorillas do when there are no males around, strap on dildos?
Vartan
i’m both…you’re so old fashioned Vartan…lighten up.
Baba, you would do well to follow your own advice.
lokesh- you should think twice before making a statement like that, given the fact you’ve been living on a semi- isolated island, with visitors who are best described as borderline psychotic, who gave in to their urges to run away from the real world, and go to a place where they can live out their psychotic delusions . And you’ve been kicking back and enjoying the freak show for over 25 years.
As I sit on this semi-isolated island writng this I have to smile, seeing how way of target your ideas about Ibiza are. You really have to stop believing all that nonsense they print in those cheap newspapers you read. You see, some of the people who own those newspapers also own houses here and they just want to scare the riff-raff away.
sense or ship? most likely sense — good sense!
call yourself osho, and you’ll probably be persecuted, prosecuted, and then killed. ouch!
Frank,
Now that you mention it, friends at that festival did convey what you’ve mentioned in your post. One even sent me a tape-recording of drive-by with his own commentary. We tend to forget that the sannyas community was despised before crimes were committed. Oregonians wore T-shirts that had a picture of Bhagwan with the statement ‘Better dead than red’, horses were shot at the ranch in the middle of the night, The Rajneesh Hotel in Portland was bombed. This incident certainly prompted more paranoia.
It was too easy for Oregonians, who have their own unsavoury past, to lump all sannyasins together as a criminal cult. If one substitutes the word ‘Blacks’ for sannyasins or followers one finds the comments made by Oregonians to be disturbing, to say the least.
it’s true,roman.
but if you pick a fight with racists on their home turf,there`s only gonna be one winner.
mind you, in our philosian game, only losers win.
long live the fool,le mat,who walks over the edge of a cliff,laughing and whistling whilst a dog bites at his bollocks.
for his is the kingdom of…
aaaaaarrgghh…
thummmppp….
You are reminding me of Shakespeare’s Gloucester. The poor bugger, he had an excuse.
‘Trouble with you, trouble with me, have two good eyes but just don’t see.’
Pity there wasn’t a blind seer around. A Tiresias comes in handy. Or a Cassandra amongst the blind enthusiasts. Still Cassandra’s are always ignored.
Lear’s Fool would have made all the difference. I think you mentioned this once. Did Osho go through a Lear stage at the ranch, betrayed by a close daughter? The greater the love, the greater the betrayal.
Life, love and laughter were preached very seriously by some. A ‘Fool’ like Lear’s needs to be at the centre of power. More psychopomp and buffoonery.
We live in materialistic times and it is not always easy to see the big picture, whatever that might be. Osho’s way was very much ‘you gotta get into it if you wanna get out of it’. Taking his own self-prescribed path, Osho lived out the Indian guru version of the American dream. Luxury cars, babes, drugs and a crowd of fawning sycophants to keep him company when needed. Extremely sensitive and intelligent, Osho soon burnt his dream out and maybe asked what could profit a man to gain the world and lose his soul in such a crass way? Happens to the best of us and it could be that Osho wasn’t as immune to that sort of thing as some liked to imagine.
Playing enlightened master is a very demanding role and Osho might well have went through a very bad patch to the extent of losing the plotless plot and becoming completely disillusioned with the whole game. Castles made of sand etc.
Time passes and Osho is back in India…playing the victim at first and then eventually returnng to form, before it’s time to say ta-ta forever. Osho was human and that is something I liked about him. Great guy! As for him being a persecuted Buddha…nonsense.
Ikkyu, 15 Century Zen Master, was thrown out of monasteries. He used the word ‘shit’ a lot in his poems. Maybe it was toilet training. His achilles heel.
‘Age eighty weak
I shit and offer it to Buddha’.
When sycophants play disciples, it is not just a wolf in sheep´s clothing but a kiss of death to the movement dear to the master.
After all, in every awakened soul, there is a human being also; the human being which can succumb to viruses, infections and sweet lies!
My little understanding is whether Sheela or Jayesh, or both, were chosen by Osho for their street smartness and Mafiato´s kind of hunger for success and bravery.
To control the control freaks is really an accomplishment for the ringleader. In that sense, Osho is class of His own!
Unfortunately Sheela rebelled and brought the circus tent down. In Jayesh´s case, master left the body while on job. Jayesh is standing alone in the vast arena with his few sycophants!
Shantam Prem says:
“To control the control freaks is really an accomplishment for the ringleader. In that sense, Osho is class of His own!”
And Push-Tech was the method. I’ve seen the same method employed by Saudi princes. Everything has to be done yesterday and there is never enough time, thus keeping the system constantly under stress and a bit in the air. We all knew that the grass grows by itself but we were still being asked to pull on the blades.
The problem with Push-Tech is that it might get quick results but tends to overlook small problems that get picked up on the way and eventually snowball into huge issues.
…And don’t start me on ‘Love Bombing-Tech’. Hehe.
Vartan
Shantam says, ‘Osho is class of His own!’
Hard to disagree with that.
Just saw this link at facebook. after a minute or two, I thought, as far as talking about Infinite bliss and inner treasures are concerned, nobody can beat the Indians….Without His commune and modified brand of religiosity, Osho also looks like one, surely with better oratory skills.
And as we see Osho´s life history, He was well aware about this. Without the committed band of initiated disciples, it is impossible to be in the league of Jesus or Buddha, famous predecessors.
If the world takes notice of Jesus or Buddha, it is not because some extraordinary treasures are coming from their mouth, but because there are groups of people behind them, who push them into our memory space.
Life on the Earth is a cut-throat competetion. Only those seeds can turn the earh green, who have more numbers, more power.
Surely someone will say, numbers is politics, it is not spirituality. Power won´t lead us to salvation. Does it mean, a person sitting alone in a broken bus has more chance to reach salvation than the crowded ones?
http://youtube/izsE5Ty6eCQ
shantam prem says:
… Does it mean, a person sitting alone in a broken bus has more chance to reach salvation than the crowded ones?
http://youtube/izsE5Ty6eCQ
Shantam, the link doesn’t work.
Vartan
Rockefellers Preside Over Creation Of Global Journalist Group to “Advance Reporting on Religion” for accuracy, fairness and balance” on all religious matters.
Almost easy to create future if one has the instruments, even it is not his, but he knows how to make people working for the false.
Rockefeller also said: All we need is a big crisis, and the world accepts the new world order, that anyway is an old order, as I said already. Almost sure that Rockefeller even stands behind this “Anonymous” thing, but it’s another story.
Those people do not have their hands over the pot, when truth hits the fan. To whom those four people whom convey Osho belong, to truth or to the liars?
Nice Stonehead Production Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QilardoEj74
Preetam says:
“… Almost sure that Rockefeller even stands behind this “Anonymous” thing, but it’s another story.”
It’s called ‘manufactured dissent’ and the way that story goes is that there about 3000 people that are causing all the world’s problems. Wanna list? The only difference, ‘this time’, is that there is nowhere for them to hide. Change the subject. It’s not for us.
Vartan
That the Rockefeller Foundation is having presided over an international journalism group about religious matters, I find critical reckoning.
Mention Anonymus was only by the way, Vartan.
Whose us? If it keeps the conversation going fair enough. It may not. One can always talk to the postman. Like Caligula I’ll talk to anyone.
Preetam says:
Nice Stonehead Production Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QilardoEj74
Great video. Seen it for the first time a few weeks back and loved it. I am still not sure if the Russia thing is valid. Too bloody cold for one. I was watching some Russian sannyasins (on you Tube) holding a meditation camp in a forest amongst the trees and they reminded me of Osho’s early camps. For now I consider Russia to be a good place for servers. A lot of the interesting stuff I see seems to come through Russia. And I love the Russian spelling of OSHO = ОШО
For some reason I feel that Brazil is a good place to be working from. Any opinions?
Vartan
Osho News: Russian Police Investigation Alert for Osho Therapists in Russia
http://www.free-press-release.com/news-osho-news-russian-police-investigation-alert-for-osho-therapists-in-russia-1310321207.html
http://www.antiprashantam.org/eng/main.html
This was only last year! Absolutely awful.
Vartan
This stuff on Prashantam – unfortunately, I can well believe it. Fascism in the name of ‘therapy’! With lots of power, money and sex for the perpetrator(s) of the abuse. The very worst of the (so-called) sannyas movement.
oh,come on.SD.
dont be so moralistic.
why not eh?
i mean if those russky chicks want some lessons on tantra.
who else but some bald old bloke from a sex-cult to give `em one,so to speak?
it makes a lot of sense.
after years of communism and repression,they`re obviously absolutely gagging for it.
lots of sex for the girls and a bit of stalinism for the guys….
sounds like osho`s vision to me..
i`d say to prashantam and all tantra therapists going to russia.
“get your balalaikas out..
you dont know how lucky you are boys..”
fuck off, frank.
One man’s ‘fun’ is another’s ‘power and money trip’, and is yet another’s ‘fascistic abuse’…
HItler probably thought he was having ‘fun’, at some level, but, more to the point, Jimmy Savile (in whom you’re extremely interested, I know, Frank) was absolutely certain he (Jimmy) was.
Anyway, anything for a cheap laugh, eh, Frank?
what’s going on here, boys?
frank’s post was obviously a tongue-in-cheek, cutting satire on the subject.
frank has always been against the abuses of the sannyas “therapy” thing–the power, ego hungry, manipulative, lecherous aspect of the the so called “healing” groups.
and on the side of the victim, the abused, the manipulated, etc.
am i missing something here?
Check the last line of my response to Frank’s “cutting satire”, Bob.
oh yeah.
i always thought hitler must`ve been having a hell of a lot of fun.
those stadium gigs he did at nremburg,with all the lightshows and stuff,they were wicked,man.
better than U2.
and i should think that annexing the sudetenland and invading poland was probably better than sex.
really,i think everyone should have their fun and be who they are…
and if that`s a problem for other people…those losers,whingers and people that cant get their material trip together should be made to realise that that they need to take responsibility for their own reality.
surely some of your gurus must have taught you that?
A.Crowley, who is probably YOUR guru,Frank.
Shri Rajneesh: A creature understood well and more by politicians and misunderstood most by disciples!!!
a very insightful and original perception.
A perspective! All psychological positions can be reversed.
Never mind says:
Shri Rajneesh: A creature understood well and more by politicians and misunderstood most by disciples!!!
It depends on your viewpoint. It all depends on your viewpoint.
Vartan
Only perspectives? Some better than others? Or is there truth?
Cosmological order? A lifeless planet? A mechnanical universe? David Chalmers, who works in the neuro-science and philosophy of mind area, once favoured the chemico-physicalist approach to the mind. He now has a different take on consciousness. He’s writing about consciouness which doesn’t just belong to the human domain. It may be part of the cosmos.
Perhaps there is more than just human stories? Some ex sannyasins feel that was all Osho offered. Shanti B, ‘I was a Rajneeshi’, wrote that he was a good story teller. She certainly told a sad one.
Its just observation !
Now in case love is supposed an element then th expresion of shri rajneesh is gone . Its high time for real disciples to comeforwarfard with thier perssonal expresion instead … I know not what to compare there is agood mess before myself here .
Never mind says:
“Its high time for real disciples to comeforwarfard with thier perssonal expresion instead … ”
Disciples don’t have a personal expression. Plus, I don’t know what “real disciples” are as I haven’t met any. Don’t worry there is not going to be any fight, we are just having a little chat.
Vartan
PS Is Never mind … frank on drugs?
Now herewhen intercourse is between two pleas its not an inter-course of two bodies then here i cant escape : i buy you but in view-point . Apart from it is something which is not just often said a proverb like thing Dear Vartan . Its an often contemplated a sort series before me i would say . Anyway let this be noted by that i am not in mood to fight not even with organians .now thats me at th momant :
Frank, howsoever you play cool, once you were hot for Osho in your devotion. There are not so many people in UK who spend much time around Osho and that too, without being in a position of power.
When I recall my memory about Osho´s Jail experience, I think I have read in one of “Rajneesh Times”, where Osho or someone else was mentioned as saying, “Being in the jail is the only experience I did not have in my past lives.”
I cannot say whether such statement was made before or after the jail experience.
Tom Robbins, as we know, loves Osho and perhaps understands him better than a lot of card carrying sannyasins. He wrote a book called ‘Another Roadside Attraction’ and this little passage is interesting:
‘ It delights us to watch a careless clown break taboos; it thrills us vicariously to watch him run wild and free; it reassures us to see him slapped down and order restored … Consider Jesus as a ragged non-conforming clown – laughed at, persecuted and despised – playing out the dumb show of his crucifixion against the responsible pretensions of authority.’
Robbins continues by imagining for the reader a conversation between Jesus and Tarzan. The latter says that Jesus reminds him of the Greek god, Pan. Jesus asks why, and Tarzan replies:
‘There was a lot of love in that crazy rascal, just as there’s a lot of love in you … But he stunk, Pan did. In rutting season you could smell him a mile away. And he’d take on anything. He would’ve screwed this nanny goat if he couldn’t find a nymph.’
Now Tarzan laughs at his words and Robbins knows that Jesus of the Christian Church would have found this all very offensive. Lets face it a Christian Jesus and carnal knowledge just don’t mix. He wouldn’t be tolerated. Like some other scoundrel mystics we know?
Oxford chooses ‘omnishambles’ as word of the year.
‘omnishambles’- defined as “a situation that has been comprehensively mismanaged, characterized by a string of blunders and miscalculations” – it’s top term of 2012.
Does not “Om-mani-shambles” sound like Sannyas mantra?
Are not we the practitioners?
Vartan and others,
Please try this link. I am curious for how many minutes, one can enjoy the art of listening without judgement, without prior knowledge.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) – Technology for Mind Management.
shantam prem says: “Vartan and others,
Please try this link. I am curious for how many minutes, one can enjoy the art of listening without judgement, without prior knowledge.”
I listened to most of it, jumped it a bit too. How does one listen without prior knowledge? If the speaker wasn’t wearing red and grinning like a Cheshire cat, it could have been a lecture ‘On Plumbing’. He makes me think of ‘The Resort philosophy’, where everything is seen in terms of tools and technology.
If Osho gave that lecture, half the students would have dropped out of the course and followed him home.
Vartan
PS There is no god.
It always amazes me how Jesus is seen as some sort of touchstone. We have so many different Jesuses and Christs throughout history. In his time, he may have been a cynical philosopher which would have put him at odds with the powers that be. He may also have been a deluded messianic prophet who thought the world was coming to an end. A tortured, pathetic, twisted soul who died a shocking cruel death like anyone who tried to subvert Roman Law. The Romans crucified, not the Jews.
When it comes to authenticity is referring to the monstrosity of Jesus Christ our best option when making comparisons about Osho? Buddha’s life is also a nice little tale considering we only have written records of him 500 years after his death.
Still, I guess these narratives can be inspiring and no doubt the Osho narrative will take many twists and turns.
We seem to need utopian dreams at a personal and collective level. Oscar Wilde, who knew a thing or two about torture and different worlds once said, ‘A map of the world that does not include Utopia is not even worth glancing at.’
Depends from which viewpoint Wilde looks, I see this a little different. The ordinary people whom working and being creative are not those whom having the Utopian ideas. Those have little wishes; they don’t want to conquer the world. The people of Utopian Ideas are the same, whom architect this planet unto their imperial goals. Not the person from the next door, he is fine by having food, friends and a place to sleep.
Before 212 years Thomas Jefferson said in a Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert Gallatin (1802) and later published in The Debate Over The Recharter Of The Bank Bill (1809): “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”
That is done, we did not resist.
If a few bankers and royals want to hold the hand above Truth for fixing their wealth and power over others, it would be for sure a good idea adding the control of religious matters. Making that way people accepting changes according their doctrine. Such seems a possible approach making out of banks and corporations a controlling High priest. If spiritual seeker say, resisting such doctrine of those false people as Ego? Such way making intelligent people quiet, by spiritual ideas of not resisting even if it is the false… isn’t it hindering truth and freedom.
Interferences from a commune of truth seeker, with a living Master whom celebrating together, are not wanted, but controlled would be ok. They will do their normal job as always in history and sabotage if anything thwart their goals.
Preetam, sounds like you are not too successful on the material plane. Let me guess. You are not a millionaire You don’t drive a luxury car and you don’t own your own house, or else are paying off a a mortage. Am I correct?
lokesh.
are you a subscriber to the “if you can`t afford a porsche,you need a philosophy” philosophy?
sounds more like if you can’t afford a porsche, “you need a good old VW bus, filled with smelly hippies” philosophy.
Frank, in answer to your question. My philosophy is sell my Mustang(which I did six months ago on ebay), because it ate way too much gas and was downright dangerous, and stick to my trusty Mercedes estate. Porches are fine by me, but I’ve a tendency to drive fast and those things go as fast as you want, which with a temprement like mine, listening to ZZ Top at full blast, would probably end up shortening my life considerably.
Osho was out for a spin one day when the Tops came on the radio. ‘Is that jazz music?’ he asked his passenger.
from “Osho on jazz”:
A sannyasin says: “we asked vivek one day what sort of jazz music Osho had listened to.
she said his understanding of jazz was music like zz top and led zeppelin (i remember him driving on the ranch one day.as he came by with the window down,there was the sound of zz top blasting at full volume)”
someone at the ranch must have noticed the synchronicity there with the beards, the big cars speeding thru dusty landscapes, the chicks…
he doesn`t say which song.
but it must have been…
“gimme all your lovin”.
i`m not really a petrol head,myself.
i`m happy just to get from a to b
with my body and philosophy intact!
More likely ‘Burger Man’- Osho loved steakburgers .
Actually funny, Lokesh, especially you are asking, who constantly is complaining about his Royces, Watches and few things more.
the guard(s) didn’t go through any crowds!!! they stayed on the road, and never ventured into the crowds along the side of the road. Osho , at that time, drove up and through Antelope(City of Rajneesh) and always stopped for the few sannyasins up there, no uzis,or guards walking behind, just the car shadowing him for security, they probably had guns, who knows. Sounds like you’re full of it Vartan!!!
All right:
ok Varatan:
see it implies to me that shri rajneesh never could have backage:
pls. I would beg pardon for it always . The facts are facts when along with a nature of them they reveal to th one whose got space for…facts.
Spiritual masters are really the blessed souls. They are the one who can have the cake and eat it too.
If the shot penetrates the target, it was the call from the Beyond. If it fails, it was a device to wake disciples up!
There is no cake.
I am utterly aghast at the horrid awful spurious comments made here on Suncream News. If it wasn’t for the fact that I am taking refuge in the ‘Dhamma und Fondue’ fireside chalet here in the Alps , I would write more often, but the snow drifts threaten and I have difficulty powering up the wood-fired internet generator in the local cafe so as to get a signal.
But mark my words, the hard work put in by the worldwide regular cast members of the Sannpsons (theme tune…da ta da ..dada datat dadadadada etc) to bring love and free sex and even no-mind-your-own-business into the world will not be derailed by the likes of this plebean mudslinging,oh no. Why I know of states that Osho wanted to find us in and tried hard to bring us to…State of Joy, State of Undress , State of Grace, State your address and telephone number…(there’s more…)
State if you have ever been found guilty of deep unrepentant conditioning even gasp horror, subconsciously. State if you are a closet nappy wearing Gandhian.
State the nature of your visit and if you have a secret yearning for enlightenment or failing which you can sign up for our ongoing Osho Neo-Apology training.
Just state what you want and how you feel,but don’t blame any corporate communoids or passing therapist in a black robe. Especially none who have Virgin Island Bank accounts in the name of Princess Turalura Legover Von Windsor und Schleswig Holstein.
And don’t think that you can get yourself into a decent state just by listening to Mitky and Premky singing… you need a real understanding of the state you are in ..just going la la wont help…
in fact it could lead to developing a funny or even a slightly beatific state of mind…
their latest recording is here…
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
…
PS:
I am looking for a Buddha to rebel on my behalf and keep safe in a box somewhere as I’m getting a bit old for all the trouble it brings and I could do with the weekends off .
…Must dash, as i think I can hear an Avallllllllaaaaaaaaa…
shhhooooshhhhhhooooooooo
gnffrrrrrrrr…gasp….
marty my boy , how the fuck are you? been awhile.. i thought osho was interested in showing us the “state of independence”(shall be). now that’s the most blissful state anyone can be in.
It is not true to say that Osho never sent disciples, etc away – argued in some places on SN. And in addition he did contrive situations in which the egos of disciples felt they had no alternative to leave. In that sense only, Laxmi, Somendra and even Shiva were the same.
Jesus was much stronger on this. He sent away almost everyone according to one old wise priest I knew when I was a boy, and then choose just 12 out of 80 of the ones that were left. Dont know the New Testament much, so not sure where he got the figures.
But even then, Jesus made mistakes on the 12 disciples. One totally betrayed him, and most denied him just after or before his death on the Cross.
The future has to be of Masters who have no disciples. No one really has potential who can be moved by charisma.
those 12 guys were a bunch of country bumpkins compared to those around osho- for the most part anyway. Primitive, superstitious (Jesus had to state that he came in “fulfillment of the Scriptures” (Old Testament to us).
He had to justify his existence and position to those yokels, with references to the Bible. What a sorry lot he had to choose from, those 12 were the best of the worst of humanity (very warlike and misogynistic). now Osho disciples weren’t warlike and not so misogynistic, but probably filled with misandristic women – Sheela proved that.
Oshoites were very well educated, though obsessed with sex, drugs and making lots of money. Jesus’ disciples as far as we know were the opposite, as mentioned above. Polar opposites yet, once the master is dead, similar results. People need to be guided, told what to do, which way to go, etc. a very sad reality for humans. I suppose, this just means more buddhas will be on the way, for the foreseeable future.
parmartha says
“no one who has potential can be moved by charisma”
the age of celebrity culture has exposed the bogusness of “charisma”as a quality possessed by individuals.
charisma is a group activity.a convention.a consensus reality.
funnily enough,just like “the ego”is.
its a social institution.
remember the gigs of hitler,the beatles,osho, michael jackson,royal weddings etc etc..
people blissing out,passing out,giggling,screaming,wetting themselves…
and then talking about it for the rest of their lives a la osho news.
if thats not the crowd-mind “ego” talking,then,i dont know what is.
Frank,
Lets not forget the journey of the Shaman who has returned from his space voyage. You are being too dismissive of the authentic medicine man.
A quote from that Romanian fascist Eliade, who spent years studying and meditating with his famous yoga teacher, will clear things up. Maybe he repented of his early fascist leanings when he became a big draw card.
Here’e the quote:
‘All these dreams, myths, and nostalgias with a central theme of ascent or flight cannot be exhausted by a psychological explanation; there is always a kernel that remains refractory to explanation, and this indefinable, irreducible element perhaps reveals the real situation of man in the cosmos, a situation that, we shall never tire of repeating, is not solely ‘Historical.’
Mircea Eliade , Shamanism, Archaic techniques of Ecstasy.
So there we have it. The old fascist and his words of wisdom. Still I always tell young folk to be weary of these trickster shamans and their devious ways. Its important to keep your pants up.
roman,
we are all on a spinning lump of rock, flying around space in endless circles at a very high speed around another very large and bright lump of rock thats on fire…..
the feeling of flying is probably mysterious because its easy to forget this fact, as we stumble around on the “solid earth”…
overall..i dont think that its neccessary to keep your pants up.
in fact, i tend to agree with the mystics and shameless shamans who recommend to drop them……
up/down
on/off
yin/yang
who knows?
is there anyone TO know?
its got to be
Frank,
A really nice post about why we have this mysterious feeling of flying. You may be right but then again I find accounts by shamans in places like Peru and Siberia interesting to say the least. No need to quote. Then there are those who claim they have been kidnapped by aliens. They are absolutely convinced and have their own cultic meetings because no one can understand their experiences. Yes, like near-death experience it may all be mythic imagination.
However, the shaman does seem to enter otherwordly realms and acquires his own ‘power animals,’ sacred songs and secret language. Kenneth Ring, a psychologist writes, ‘After his initiation is complete, the shaman returns to his community as a healer, a psychopomp, a master of ecstasy, a mystic, a visionary – as a man/woman, in short, who knows how to live in two worlds: the world of the soul as well as that of the body. And although indispensable to the welfare of his community, he often remains somewhat apart from it precisely because of his special knowledge and his unusual and somewhat disturbing presence.’
Shamans seem to do more than just ‘stumble around on the solid earth.’ Like Osho they can’t be pinned down. These tricksters are like Hermes or Mecury. Mercury slips through your fingers. It can’t be grasped. Osho is a good example. Perhaps we shouldn’t refer to Osho but Oshos. One can meditate and reflect on a lot of images when it comes to this man. Different people have different fixations. He’s an archetype for many, whatever that is? Maybe interesting to explore what you posted further one day.
As for keeping you pants up or down that requires a whole thread. You’ve even mentioned tantra std’s and one has to be a bit discriminatory. You surely, like me, don’t drop your pants for anyone. As Lokesh has pointed out, they have ways of keeping the riff raff away from the magical island. No Calibans there.
Does it have to be a choiceless choice? Maybe. We know that all either/or statements need an ‘and’ as well.
Finally,
‘No need of a story, a story is not compulsory, just a life, that’s the mistake I made, one of the mistakes, to have wanted a story for myself, whereas life alone is enough.’
Stories and Texts for Nothing.
Samuel Beckett
roman,
“shamans” dont have a copyright on strange experiences.
two close friends have told me about their very real experiences (very similar,altho they dont know each other) of being taken up into spaceships and showered with love by benevolent aliens.
oddly,neither of them are druggies/psychedelonauts,raelians or wannabe shamans.
in fact,they have rarely spoken to any one about it.
their experiences are “unsolved mysteries”and they are still quite mystified by the happenings as far as “explanations” go.
had fun trying,but had to let it go.
…unlike the endless streams of wannabe shamans/psychics and other self-appointed pompous psychopomps who brag endlessly on their publicity hand-outs and websites etc and trying to impress everyone about how many “spiritual” and “special” experiences they have had and how important and special that makes them, so you need to pay them money or give them some kind of respect etc…
these psychopomps are probably really psychopimps…
telling you about their psychic good time with the angels and trying get you to give them money so that you can have a go…!
.
Yes, nice. What else one will find, instead himself? One leg stands within the eternal, one under the sun.
THE EMERALD TABLET of Hermes Trismegistus
True it is, without a doubt and lie. What is above is equal to what is below, and what below is like that which is above, wealthy, the wonders of accomplishing one. And like everything else in one, originates
preetam,
keep taking the emerald tablets….
roman says:
Frank,
A really nice post about why we have this mysterious feeling of flying. …
When asked, most want to come back as birds. When considering that bird cults (vulture cults to be precise, where the idea of angels comes from) were some of the first religious expressions of man … while at the same time practicing excarnation (leaving the bodies of the dead on high wooden frames for the birds to eat) … we go back a long way with the birds. And to even consider that birds might be flying dinosaurs, the akashic record is in our bones.
Vartan
Parmartha,
With so many schisms within the church I must confess I do have a peek at OshoNews to see whose passed away and whatever. Anyway I’ve just read Divya’s comments about returning her old oval shaped mala when she left the ranch and your comments about leaving Osho which does make sense. The story of Teertha (Paul Lowe) is also another case but he seems very quiet about it all. These days he resides in sannyas territory, Byron Bay, and does his gig. There are a few talks on Utube one can watch.
As for Christianity, John Dominic Crossan is regarded as the world’s foremost Jesus scholar. He is an Irish-American New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity and was a priest but left the church, married and had a family. One can probably download his lectures. Crossan’s work has taken him to Middle Eastern countries and he studied archeology in Jerusalem. He comes across as a very humble decent guy. He’s written so many books. One which comes to mind is ‘The Historical Jesus – The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant.’ Another is ‘Who killed Jesus? Exposing the Roots of Anti-Semitism in the Gospel Story of the Death of Jesus.’ His book on how Christianity triumphed is interesting. I must admit I’ve only dipped because of lack of time.
Libraries are great. I have read the gospels and a few books on them. I can’t remember the 80 story. Fact or fiction I do find the betrayal tales interesting. I’ve always felt that there is a betrayal mechanism is relationships. The greater the love, the greater the betrayal. Obviously there isn’t much investment if there isn’t great love and a connection with someone. What I find interesting is what one does with betrayal. It can happen on an unconscious level and I believe a great teacher betrays consciously so that one grows up. Instead of thanks there is often resentment and the desire for revenge which can take years to work through.
I also think that foregiveness plays a crucial role in the betrayal complex. Can one forgive those who betray? Obviously the betrayer has to acknowledge what they have done. Someone like Sheela seems incapable of acknowledging her betrayal. One could write a lot on the betrayal mechanism.
As regards to the future ‘has to be masters who have no disciples’, this is also a complex one. One problem I see is that genuine teachers/gurus/masters have done a lot of work on themselves and most of us are lazy. We aren’t prepared to go through some dark night of the soul which they are. We look for external guidance and reference externally. Many disciples see their gurus as parental figures according to one leading Indian psychoanalyst who has written on the guru as a healer. I don’t have a problem with this if they are being helped. Lets face who can do it alone and in the West we have our dependencies. I only have to think of medical experts who I’ve trusted and who have saved my life.
Charisma is another tricky one. Is it bestowed on you? Ramakrishna’s mystical experiences certainly didn’t have anything to do with being a celebrity. He was a freak. It may have had something to do with his sexual make up according to one writer. Is the charisma Elvis had the same as Hitler’s or Osho’s? Max Weber has probably written better on charisma than most. He wrote a lot about leadership from a religious and political context. Charismatic leadership was one form of leadership he concentretrated upon. We wouldn’t have sociology without Marx or Weber. Weber wrote on Western leadership as well as Hindu and Buddhist leadership. He was interested in how these societies operated and the authority of the charismatic leader.
I do sympathise with your last comment that ‘no-one really has potential who can be moved by charisma.’ On the other hand lets not forget about Kabir and the path of the devotee. The devotee is not following scripture blindly but perhaps surrendering to a genuine master. Complexity again as you have said in the past.
Thanks, Roman. I only just got round to reading this.
You draw attention to stuff I don’t know about here, and well, if I retire, I will, I am sure enjoy. Those books on Jesus sound real interesting. And Weber on charisma, the list goes on and on…
My own feeling is that many of Osho’s self-called disciples were and are devotees! So I don’t mind their path, and maybe their attachment to the charisma of their “leader” is an okay thing. Though I hasten to point out Osho was NEVER any kind of devotee himself!
I am interested in another path, that of discipleship, and defining it can be useful. Charismatic attraction is dangerous for a disciple, he has to work on himself!
Preetam, what is this thing called Freemasonry?
Is this a new kind of spritual invisble trunk to cover the nakedness?
shantam.
indians are not the only ones to wear holy chuddies.
freemasons do,in fact, wear special sacred underpants.
mormons also wear holy magic underpants.
these guys could all be ready for the ultimate religious experience…
turn on
tune in
and drop your pants
frank- same with Hasidic Jews and the ultra-othordox, i just read up on the origin of Hasidism and it’s current off-shoots…the men have to wear a four cornered fringed garment under their clothes, along with daily rituals and strict kosher diet. trouble with that and all other rituals practiced by extremist groups is that it doesn’t make the person a better person, it’s all done to please their god(s).
As a current example, the Israeli and Palestinian violence, which looks almost certain to lead to an all out war…So all of those religious jews and arabs, practicing strict diets, rituals and wearing specific undergarments, all along have murder and mayhem on their minds…quite frightening.
The following award winning documentary will give one an education on the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. It is essential viewing for any thinking person. A story that tends never to be told. Here you will have leading Israeli historians, scholars and international writers of substance giving their insights. It is also a damning critic of the United States. I’ve done my fair share of reading and discussed the conflict with Jews and Arabs. I’m amazed how little people know about this topic.
I have also included a poem by one of Israel’s great poets Ahaon Shabtai who grew up in Tel Aviv and is the foremost translator of Greek drama into Hebrew. An enormously compassionate man with the courage to speak out.
Rypin
These creatures in helmets and khakis,
I say to myself, aren’t Jews,
in the truest sense of the word. A Jew
doesn’t dress himself up with weapons like jewelry
doesn’t believe in the barrel of a gun at a target,
but in the thumb of the child who was shot at -
in the house through which he comes and goes,
not in the charge that blows it apart.
The coarse soul and iron fist
he scorns by nature
He lifts his eyes not to the officer, or the soldier
with his finger on the trigger – but to justice,
and he cries out for compassion.
Therefore, he won’t steal land from its people
and will not starve them in camps.
The voice calling for expulsion
is heard from the hoarse throat of the oppressor –
a sure sign that the Jew has entered a foreign country
and , like Umberto Saba, gone into hiding within his own city.
Because of voices like these, father,
at age sixteen, with your family, you fled Rypin;
now here in Rypin is your son.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
babasvetlana says:
“…So all of those religious jews and arabs, practicing strict diets, rituals and wearing specific undergarments, all along have murder and mayhem on their minds…quite frightening.”
So the answer to the world’s problems is proper bloomers?
Vartan
no vartan, best to go naked.
Baba,
You can go ad hominen in your posts which isn’t my cup of tea but I’d just like to point out that Osho spoke very movingly on Hasidism in his ‘The Art of Dying.’ His talks made a deep impression on me at the time. Hasidism is a complex affair. A Hasidic doctor I know is inspired by the Baal Shem Tov the founder of Hasidism. This doctor is a brilliant compassionate man inspired by his teacher, as well as Moses Maimonides who the Muslims so respected because of his medical expertise and knowledge. Maimonides of course was not a Hasid.
Osho once gave a press interview where he actually said the Baal Shem Tov was enlightened. It is so easy to generalise and just see the externals. There is an esoteric side to Hasidim not jusy an exoteric aspect. Could the same be said about sannyas? Gershom Sholem is, of course, an authority on Jewish mysticism and the Kabbalah. Sholem was friends with Jung and forgave Jung’s ridiculous slip up with the Nazis. Sholem was also a close friend of Walter Benjamin, a creative genius who died so tragically. Benjamin was pursued by the Nazis to the Spanish border but was refused entry by Spanish authorities so he took his own life. People visit what is known today as Benjamin’s Crossing. There is a novel titled Benjamin’s Crossing which is excellent.
Your dismissal of Hassidism is bit like dismissing Sufism. Another excellent author who writes on Hasidism is Chaim Potok. His novels are worth reading if you read novels. My name is Asher Lev is a moving account of a boy brought up in a Hasidic environment. The Rebbe is a man of wisdom and is also the most knowledgeable when it comes to European culture. I’ve been impressed with many Hassids I’ve met and their knowledge of other cultures. In Poona two I met some wonderful Jewish sannyasins who knew a thing or two about Hassidism. I remember attending an evening of Jewish celebration and there was a Jewish cantor singing. I was amazed. Osho was also familiar with the work of Martin Buber and read his ‘Tales of Hassidism.’
Today, Moshe Idel is probably the most respected writer in this area. His book on the Kabbalah won a National Jewish award. Umberto Eco (The name of the Rose) has praised it for its accessibility to non-specialised readers who want to know about this tradition.
The history of Zionism is complex. Many readers would know about the Dreyfus Affair. Emile Zola, J’accuse, had the guts to stand up to the anti-semites. Some of us would know about Theodor Herzl and the origins of Zionism, the stuff up by Balfour. This has nothing to do with Hasidism. Are Hasids Zionists? Hasidic Jews have spoken out against Zionist atrocities. You are far too dismissive when you say , ‘So all of those religious Jews and Arabs, practicing stict diets, rituals and wearing specific undergarments , all along have murder and mayhem on their minds.’
We all know that Israel was created on the premises of a ‘Land without a people for a people without a Land.’ This is the big issue.
You say you’ve ‘just read up on the origins of Hasidism and its current off-shoots.’ Well surely that doesn’t explain the complexity of the Arab/Israeli conflict. I know of Sephardic Jews who don’t even communicate with Ashkenazi Jews who have so much power in Israel. I only recently read a book by writers and poets discussing this problem.
Generalising can be useful but not always. At least we have one thing in common. One day we will all have to face Benjamin’s Crossing.
Roman: Osho also said that the late Rebbe Menachem Schneerson of the Lubavitch Hasidic Sect was also enlightened(died in 1994). One can listen to his anti-arab and Palestinian rhetoric and come away with the feeling this guy’s a hate monger and xenophobe. But, as i said in previous posts, enlightened masters don’t bite the hands that feed them. A difficult but true idea to accept,just drop the “enlightened” prefix and reality comes into play.
the first and last “hasid” was Baal Shem Tov, all others are just copycats. same with christ, buddha, lao tsu, et. al.
why give me a history lesson on what osho said or what books he read..? i’m well aware of all of that stuff – don’t mean a thing once you actually go out and live life.
Giggle… yes, the “ultimate” underpants.
Not easy to describe, for sure not new trunks, invisible for the people, only the results become visible… they work for royals and themselves. If royals does not accept them as equal it results perhaps the French revolution. The same people whom America “cultivated” became India’s colonial masters, architects of the British Empire, but they are older and seeing themselves above all religion and empires, highest is Master Mason.
A very little information about Freemasons in India and Asia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Lodge_of_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry_in_Asia
“The future has to be of Masters who have no disciples. No-one really has potential who can be moved by charisma.”
Parmartha, i am afraid to say, the above statement is from the western mind. It also gives the impression from that fucked up disciple( i am one like many others. Lokesh is the lucky one. Who got his wife and went his way without wasting too much emotional energy) who wasted all his emotions on a Ponzi scheme promoted by Osho.
As far as west is concerned, no person with sane mind will go any more to some Indian masters.
Pray before jesus or Maria, read “Who am i and who are u” kind of Indian books, believe in past life so try to be ethical…and do yoga or Zumba!
Somewhere, it is a very sad state. After the death of all the last century Indian masters, their majority share holders from the west have really screwed the things up.
It is gain of the Church…loss for the humanity.
masters with no disciples?
that sounds to me like de-caffeinated coffee
or alcohol-free beer
nicotine-free cigs
or thc-free ganga.
no way…
it will never catch on.
and shantam.
the whole universe is a ponzi scheme.
for every oak tree,all those millions of acorns rot away or get eaten by squirrels..
for every kid,millions of wasted sperms…
dont worry about it.
i would say….
celebrate your fucked-upness,sadness and loserness…
do you have a choice?
frank says:
masters with no disciples?
that sounds to me like de-caffeinated coffee
or alcohol-free beer
nicotine-free cigs
or thc-free ganga.
That list makes it sound like, disciples with no master. (Unless of course you consider the disciples as the main ingredient … which of course is a wonderful option to consider.)
Vartan
Vartan,
It may not be an option to consider.
I’m reminded of the Zen (Ch’an) masters of the ‘shouting and beating school,’ during the T’ang Dynasty, who are said to have tweaked the noses of the monks, doubtless rounding them and reddening them. They did this when a monk thought or felt for a moment that he at last attained blissful enlightenment!
The nose knows, but not for many.
how about disciples with no masters?
There will always be those who need to have their noses tweaked and they’ll thank the ‘enlightened’ ones for the tweaking. Naturally there will always be those who become envious and resentful.
Frank,
We know there will always be disciples and worshippers.
I’ve just read an article in ‘The London Review of Books’ by Marina Warner titled ‘Our Lady of the Counterculture.’ Warner writes about the lives of the Virgin Mary and how she is big deal particularly in Eastern Europe. One of the members of Pussyn Riot stated that their act was an appeal to the Virgin Mary. Warner’s article is a delight to read and points out the massive return to faith people are experiencing. The Virgin Mary, Fatima and the moving statues figure very prominently. I also didn’t realise that there was a Virgin Temple near Saigon. It is the holiest of places and is referred to as ‘The Black Virgin Mountain’.
The cult of the Virgin Mary also reminds of the time I saw Milne/Shiva being interviewed on Conscious TV and he pointed out that when he’s in trouble She whispers word of wisdom ‘let it be!’ I’ve no doubt the Virgin Mary will take over the planet. Our last two Popes have been Virgin Mary worshippers. The previous Pope’s life was saved by the Virgin Mary. The bullet which didn’t kill him is know residing in the crown of one of the famous statues of the Blessed Virgin.
Moving statues are our new spiritual guides.
roman says:
………Warner writes about the lives of the Virgin Mary and how she is big deal particularly in Eastern Europe. One of the members of Pussyn Riot stated that their act was an appeal to the Virgin Mary. Warner’s article is a delight to read and points out the massive return to faith people are experiencing. The Virgin Mary….
Independent to Osho stuff…I have been keeping an eye on the rise of spirituality and occultism inside the former soviet union and especially Russia. One must never underestimate the power of the Orthodox Church and many ppl want to believe but are finding difficult so they jump to the next best thing. They have been ‘blocked’ for so long, they are ready to believe anything. Religion is the opium for the (poor) people.
Vartan
sounds like those guys are gagging for religion…..
if you`re single,over 55……itstime to get your black robe on,pack a copy of “the idiots guide to tantra”,(opiums ok,but viagra`s better)and get over there to lithuania,latvia and moscow …
and give `em one….
(religion i mean)
frank says:
sounds like those guys are gagging for religion…and get over there.
You don’t have to go over there for them, as many have found their own way to our hallowed shores, but I am staying off them as they all have issues and agendas, mostly of the financial kind. Very pretty tho.
Vartan
I’ve noticed that OshoNews has alerted its readers that the documentary on Rajneeshpuram will be shown on Monday and at other times. So what can one expect? I suspect not much. It will no doubt have advocates from both sides and commentary from ‘impartial experts’ in sociology and blah blah blah.
No doubt the peaceful Oregonians will talk about acts of terrorism and the evils of ‘The Bhagwan’ who brainwashed disciples and was on drugs blah blah blah. Almost certainly we will have disciples who will defend Osho as a spiritual master and after an hour’s viewing everyone will go back to their own peaceful lives none the wiser.
Obviously I’m cynical about a liberal bourgeois documentary which claims to be impartial and objective. The history of Oregon and the United States is based on violence and is no more innocent than the crimes committed by the ‘red people’. Recently I came across a comment by Mark Twain who wrote the following on the French Revolution, it is from ‘A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court, and it reminded of how we always opt for simplistic solutions when it comes to conflict. The battle lines being clearly drawn between the goodies and badies. Here are Twains insightful words:
There were two ‘Reigns of Terror’ if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; … our shudders are all for the ‘horrors’ of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with life-long death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been dilegently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror – that unspeakably bitter and aweful Terror which none of us have been taught to see in its vastness ot pity as it deserves.’
‘There were two ‘Reigns of Terror’ if we could but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other has lasted a thousand years; … our shudders are all for the ‘horrors’ of the mimor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with life-long death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? … A city cemetry could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror – that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us have been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves’.
Theses are powerful words by Twain about historical complexity.
I don’t think a one hour documentary on Rajneeshpuram will due justice to the history of Oregon and Rajneeshpuram. The crimes committed by the red folk are obvious but the history of Oregon isn’t straightforward either.
i take it you didn’t read my alert to SN readers last week? why go to oshonews when you can have all the B.S. you need right here.
BTW, Vartan, if the guns were really that big , the bloke wouldn’t have been able to carry it!!! Very simple- too heavy and awkward. Comprende? though over these 27, 28 years your memory, due to old age, maybe getting the better of you… try some crack or X- guaranteed to rejuvenate your mind.. very harmless according to you…
religious cults, like military groups, have a long documented history of gross exaggeration at all levels.
that “anti-aircraft gun” will soon turn into a Raytheon Anti-Scud Patriot Missle Battery System, and the lone US fighter jet that buzzed Osho Mandir at the Ranch during an Osho discourse will turn into a squadron of B-52 StratoFortresses flanked by a few state of the art Stealth Bombers.
fish stories, war stories, more stories….
the jaded audience always needs a stronger dose to attract and maintain their attention.
Bob: there were quite a few occasions where US jet fighters buzzed the Ranch. i distinctly remember on one of those, two fighters flew threw the valley no higher than say, 500 feet. Quite an experience even from about a couple of hundred meters away. that would have scared the shit out of me if i was one of those underneath as they passed.
babasvet,
well, isn’t “scaring the shit out of you” what you guys paid for in your encounter groups, with osho’s blessings? maybe you should be thankful to those flyboys for doing it for free, via the US taxpayers money, no less.
and btw, military operations like that are always designed to accomplish an overarching goal, which in the case of the Ranch, was quite succesfully fulfilled without a drop of blood of any basically innocent people being shed. bravo.
Sun Tzu would have been smiling at the outcome.
Bob: since i don’t have any grandkids to tell good old war stories to by the fireplace, you children here at SN will have to suffice.
hey, don’t get me wrong…
i have nothing against revisiting events of days gone by — for clarification, which leads to the betterment of humanity in the present. in fact, i support entirely the illuminating of the true Ranch history, and SN has done a bang-up job in that regard (though not complete yet….). We can learn a lot from it. Remember (Lokesh!), we are always in the present, there’s no way to circumvent it. Discussing the past, thinking about the future, we are undeniably and inexoriably smack dab in the here and now. Can’t be otherwise. You could call it an immutable law of nature, like The Law of Thermodynamics.
i was reading the other day a photo book published in France recently about the Battle of Verdun in WWI, a defensive seige whose main goal was to protect Paris from German advances. the “battle” lasted the entire war, and ended with the war’s ending. some non-urban rural setting, where the foot soldiers from both sides could bang it out, use their weapons, get their medals, advance surgical procedures, and then write hisory books about it .
another was the Battle of Iwo Jima, between the US and Japan. Clint Eastwood(a US film guy) just directed a movie which i saw, which shows the event from the side of the Japanese on the island, through lettes written home by the commander of the Jap forces, never delivered, but found later after all the smoke cleared. Illuminating stuff.
we live in this Ocean, and it’s bigger than the Big Blue of the Mediterranean, or the Big Muddy of Rajneeshpuram. It’s infinite, and it’s always been here. our home.
“you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave….”
Bob, i’m assuming you’re the infamous “Oshobob” from a few years ago, some time ago a call was made from a couple sannyasins posting here, that all sannyasins, especially those in charge, that they come clean and tell all about their “misdeeds”. One swami responded, he claimed to be Osho’s mom’s caretaker, he spilled a few tidbits of info, claiming that the old man actually had direct knowledge of most of the events at the ranch and pune 1and also instructed people to do “dirty deeds”, and that it only scratched the surface regarding his involvement.
What was hoped by those few sannyasins, i believe, was to do a Sannyas -version of what the South Africans did in the mid 1990′s after apartheid ended- a “truth and reconciliation” program. People were encouraged without penalty, to tell what evil things they did, gov’t officials, rebels, ordinary citizens of all color… it worked. Sannyasins i feel are just too arrogant to do that, no matter how “spiritual” or meditative they claim to be…i suppose we’ll see if that changes now that this video is out…my guess, is very little change…nature of the beast.
Well some events are more significant than others. The other day I was reading ‘Frank Sinatra has a Cold’ by Gay Talese and I was shaken to my roots. Almost as exciting about plans flying over Oregon.
By the way, Talese’s ‘Ali in Havana’ is a bloody good read. You’ve probably read some Talese? A pity he didn’t visit the ranch. I guess he had more important things to do. No Talese, no Hunter.
Wasn’t that anti- Scud patriot missile defense system shipped to Israel from the ranch? didn’t they just use that against those rockets fired from Gaza? must have just clean the dust off – in the nick of time.
there ya go…Verdun revisited, in the desert of Palestine, that Never Ending Tour of Duty….don’t hold your breath for this one to be resolved any time soon…
“where have all the flowers gone…?”
the answer, says bobby d., is “blowin’ in the wind.”
what wind is that bob? the infinite cosmic wind?
someone pass me a few ham sandwiches and a working Uzi for this journey….
Well lets not get too carried away with the Middle East. The documentary I posted says it all.
The real ‘Heart of Darkness’ lies in the Congo. Time magazine have pointed out that this is the deadliest war in the world. Four milliion people have died in the Congo over the last decade as the result of political violence. No usual humanitarian uproar here. No one wants to confront it. A kid in the Gaza or an Iraeli gets coverage.
We know whose responsible for the atrocities in the Congo. The area is rich in coltan, diamonds, copper, cobalt and gold. The local warloads and foreign armies have a nice little relationship which can be traced to your backyard. Lets not let the people unite and share the resources. The UN, not a bunch of radicals, have acknowledged the problem. No, like Rwanda, these people are not savages but are victims of colonial exploitation. Beneath the facade of, ethnic warefare, we discern the contours of global capitalism and its exploitation.
Roman: it’s all about skin color and money.. “if you’re white -you’re right; you’re black- step back”… “if you’re poor, just ignore; got money- you’re my honey”. Remember Rwanda during their genocide? no plans for the u.s or the euros to intervene… Iraq- here come the 300,000 troops… oil oil oil. Israel- got $70 million earlier this year from the U.S. to install that “Iron Dome” missile shield… Aid to Congo- zero. Aid to South Sudan- almost zero, except of course Hollywood actors paying visits.
China gets a pass cause back in 1992 they opened their door to the capitalists and had a slave labor pool of over 1 Billion people, which made hundreds of Billions in profits for american and euro(trash) corporations, along with the commie and military officials who own 50.1% of all companies permitted to operate in China.
I suppose those white folks running corporate america and europe think that Africans only think about fucking white women and fighting each other over who has the biggest dick…. so why bother saving their black skins.
Baba,
So true.
‘Heart of Darkness’ by Conrad. What a writer! Nothing left to add. Thanks.
Well, I was thinking of Lokesh’s comment about ‘sitting in the semi-isolated island’ and I thought I’d post a track from Deuter’s new album ‘Flowers of Silence’. I had been for a walk in the park and listened to the whole album. I love the way Chaitanya slows things down and opens up spaces. He is a very meditative person. No adhominen attacks here. Also a bit different from happy clappy music. I was very moved. I hope you enjoy it.
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I may be wrong, Roman, but I’m pretty sure Flowers of Silence came out long ago, in the 70′s even. Anyway, what does it matter? A fine album indeed.
yeah,thats definitely an oldie.
i like that cosmic stuff…
mind you,even “everything is beautiful” by pinky and perky sounds good if i`ve had enough cake….
Frank,
This is a serious problem. ‘Silence is the Answer’ is the oldie.
Getting back to another serious problem, a young sannyasin, not the one who posts, suggested I listen to an album by Father Misty John. It’s always good to keep in touch with todays youth. I also try to convince them of the wonders of Mary Poppins. Anyway I’ve posted a track about a dangerous Canadian shaman. Perhaps Teertha knows him? Hope you enjoy. The album isn’t bad.
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yes, you are right,roman.
SD and myself are probably suffering from a rare neurological condition where the brain stops being able to identify Deuter music recorded since about 1980something….
btw.what has happened to PT teertha,these days?
unlike many highly spiritual people,that guy seemed to have at least a few braincells left…
i think he might have been offended by some of dominics racial stereotyping.
or maybe he`s just too busy magusing,or whatever it is that maguses do….
Hope I am not the idiot, why. I responded quite rough on the latest post; for it I apologise if it is so.
preets,
we all hope we are not “the idiot”.
it’s kind of a universal collective Jungian thing.
we hope the ‘other’ is the idiot, and we are the wise. makes it easier to go to sleep at night.
SD,
According to Ramaswami Krishnaswami Narayanaswami Suk the old album was called ‘Silence is the Answer’.
‘Flowers of Silence’ is new material. I also read a recent review. I did have ‘Silence is the Answer’ but like all good things, you’ve got to pass them on. There is enough tears and laughter for all of us to share. You probably had the old Kitaro albums as well?
We’ve looked at many different aspects of Osho’s life but there is an area that I feel tends to be ignored. I referring to the Osho who emphasized the importance of cultivating the mind, something that is often forgotten.
The following from Osho’s ‘The Great Pilgrimage’ is a good example. These discourses were in Poona Two September 87.
Here we have Osho pointing out that ‘you have to decorate your mind with poetry, with music, with art, with great literature. Such third-rate things go on through your mind that you cannot love it; you think of nothing which is great. Make it more in tune with people like Fydor Dostoyevski, Leo Tolstoy, Anton Chekov, Turgenev, Rabindranath Tagore, Kahlil Gibran, Mikhail Naimy. Make it filled with the greatest heights the mind has reached.Then you will not be unfriendly to the mind. Then you will rejoice in the mind. Even if the mind is there in silence, it will have a poetry and a music of its own. And to transcend such a refined mind is easy. It is a friendly step towards higher peaks; poetry turning into mysticism, great literature turning into great insights about existence, music turning into silence.’ Osho ends the discourse by saying the mind is not a hindrance but ‘you just don’t know how to use it.’
So we have here a mystic who has a deep appreciation of how literature, poetry and music is nourishing food for the soul.
roman says:
…….. Osho ends the discourse by saying the mind is not a hindrance but ‘you just don’t know how to use it.’
Oh absolutely. I am at a point in my life where the titaness Mnemosyne (mother of the nine Muses) plays a very large part. Memory (mnemosyne, mnema = grave) is a kind of tomb full of treasures. Ok sometimes it doesn’t get things spot on, but there is always google, or you guys, to remind me.
The mind is your best friend but it’s easy to say at 59. For a healthy life have “an interest”, better even “a passion”. Get possessed.
Vartan
Good post, Roman.
i really enjoy being able to label anyone`s thoughts that i dont agree with as “in the mind” and “mindfuck”.
that really puts me on top of things.
`specially when ive got a robe on.
wow.i just puff right up and feel really enlightened.
it`s a buzz.
being against the mind is a real possibility for neo-sannyas
like being against the body was for trad sannyas.
usually the subscribers of anti-body or anti-mind are one of two types…
either they`ve got a faulty or crap one..hunchbacks,simpletons,cripples or thickos.
or they`ve got a healthy one and they struggle to keep it under control, so in a final gambit they reject it altogether.
(only to wake up with the rejected bit biting them on the ass
or even more likely,someone elses` ass)
at humaniversity they had a slogan
“better to die fucking than mindfucking”
an admirable sentiment in some cases.
yet banging your brains out, out of your head on dope with a barry white impersonator mumbling in the background may not be the highest aesthetic a man or woman can aspire to..as you suggest ,roman.
Frank,
You have a way of deliteralising fixations. I think disciples often try to literalise the meaning of words. And your message shows how literal fucking or mind fucking is still choosing and being stuck. Perhaps Nirvana is Samsara?
You’ve reminded me of this quote from Huxley’s Perennial Philosophy where he writes about action in non-action: ‘on a knife-edge between the carelessness of the average sensual man and the strained overeagerness of the zealot for salvation. To achieve it one must walk delicately, and to maintain it one must learn to combine the most intense alertness with a tranquil and self denying passivity, the most indomitable determination with a perfect submission to the leadings of the spirit.
Conflicts
The body does things on it own. It tells
rather than asks the mind. Almost as if
it could say it has its ‘reasons,’ it ravages
in the mind’s own house and neither one
knows why both hurt. Each blames the other one
and leans on the enmity as enemies do.
william bronk
it sounds more to me that, “you’re damned if you do, you’re damned if you don’t”.
frank says:
being against the mind is a real possibility for neo-sannyas
like being against the body was for trad sannyas.
The new Static Meditation as proposed by the Resort for dealing with the body/mind issue
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abraxas/no%209/saddhu04.jpg
Vartan
Fear and arrogance is what really led to the downfall of the Ranch. Well put, Frankie.
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair
Show an affirming flame.
W.H.Auden
ps I’ll get around to reading your novel.
And an appreciation for gas…Is this what his cultivated mind desired all along?
Hey Babasvetlana – have you ever read ‘The Man without Qualities’ by Robert Musil?
When we put all the wisdom of all the sannyas writers, thinkers, meditators, group leaders, therapists, awakened ones and semi-awakened ones in one pot, will this be enough to create one small property, which runs more smoothly then any other country?
“the undisputed master of the mixed metaphor 2012″
and the award goes to……..
Swami Rab C Nesbit.
The Buddhas of the past couldn’t transform Earth into a “Lotus Paradise”, till today. But, it seems those people in power whom I am speaking of, almost transformed it into “Hell” instead, ruled by their violent doctrine. Guess purpose of free will is just one, for deciding between those “two”. It sounds black and white.
To me, the basic decision to make. Maybe, nuances grow appropriate from that source in gold or plum. Would that viewpoint describing, making it a spiritual conflict? “Faust” seems all over the planet; by the way, “Goethe” is Freemason.
Only persecuted Buddha of our time, Osho, i hope would love this story, wherever He is/or He is not…
Swami Big Boss was in the meeting with Sodexo manpower´s chief exective.
after few drinks, swami said in a confessional tone,”I wonder, how my master´s prophecy will be fullfilled. He said before leaving the body, “Many more people will come. But i see only few.”
The CEO of sodexo international said, “No problem. We are in the business of providing people. And as an initiative, order 150 and you get 15 free of cost. Surely maroon and white robes, Resort has to provide!”
I think I’ve got it sassed. The God Man asked Swami Big Boss to deny Him and the Swami Big Boss (like the fool he is) has gone and done it.
Vartan
all big bosses putting all ideas in one chamber-pot,then CEO of sodhexo using tata cement mixer to mince words and semi-awakened ones will mix the vegetables with the mashed metaphors and smoothies serving to the western mind by prosecuted buddhas.
many people will come but 15 or 150 will also come,running smoothly as a house.
surely holy underwear one has to provide for oneself!
The price of disposable chuddies has gone through the roof.
When i see the life of my fellow Osho sannyasins including all of us writers at sannyasnews and the readers, it reminds me of the photo, i have seen months ago about some housing projects in Spain.
The unending recession has taken the life away from these complexes. Photos give the impression of a ghost town. The complete suburb without inhabitants.
Also there are similar photos about Detroit. Once the auto industry hub has now the empty sheds and broken promises.
The wisdom which we think we have is quite good for self gratification but unable to create any ripple effect.
Feels ego satisfying to be self sufficient seeker, almost like an unemployed auto engineer, who is fixing the puncture on her wife´s bicycle!
Anybody seen the new R’puram program?
Vartan
Vartan,
It didn’t use shock horror tactics and it presented the different perspectives fairly. It was almost Family Viewing. I could have shown it to my Grandmother if I had one.
Don’t worry, Roman – she was watching it all in the great afterlife…with popcorn, too.
Lokesh says:
The price of disposable chuddies has gone through the roof.
Lokesh, have you crossed that age boarder, where the price of the car and the house looks irrelevant compared to the price of disposable knickers?
I think this kind of old versions of blessings,”May you live long for 100 years”, is not a blessing any more but a financial curse.
may you keep hold of your chuddies…
may all your dreams come true..
may your incontinence pants remain firm
when the winds of change blow around you….
may your stairlift reach up to the stars
and as you clank on every rung…
may you stay..forever young…..
with apologies to bob zimmerframe…
I think there might be some confusion between the State of Oregon and current events elsewhere in the world when discussing the size of one’s shooter. I often find myself elaborating on nuclear defence missiles when indulging in a bit of hanky panky. It’s easily done.It generally reflects my over zealous imagination fuelled by disproprtionate attempts to inflate my under-sized ego. But I have a handle on it….by quickly placing my hand on my nearby collection of Pinky and Perky memorabilia, I become instantly soothed.
And yes, it is chilly out….and so is the weather.
Kindly send your replies to the
Bennyamin Hillanyahu Foundation for nudge nudge wink wink jokes about the size of your religious foundation and the power to bring about criminally sized changes to the state of your neighbours aspirations.
Nice. Swiftian! ‘A Modest Proposal’ by the Hillanyahu Foundation as Jonathan would write.
Preetam…Thank you so much for this contribution . I know that Parmartha is sometimes a few bricks short of an adjoining wall and he thoroughly enjoys seeing anyone with a white pinafore , a hammer and a set of dividers , to cheer up his long winter postings with some reassuring archane mysterious ceremonies….Parmartha is actually number 34 divided by the sacred 6 which is embodied in the acronymous InSannyas News and Auto World Domination Trader.
Be aware, friends, of things we know little of…:)
Martyn, you’re talking as if Parmartha is the Anti-Christ waiting to get into action next month, on the Mayan doomsday…Heaven help us…Will Osho come down from Heaven to save the “chosen few”? On his way down will he run into Jesus, Mary, Joseph and Moses? Bring out the trumpeters, let the charioteers ride down Lao Tsu Lane, laying down a carpet of rose pedals…Sheela where are you? We need you…to greet them, with champagne and a pearl white stretch Rolls Royce Limo…Amen
Being aware, yes sure…if we know little we have to understand why.
Do we have all our spirit within, inclusive “universal” Love; needed is space exploring and understanding ones Self? Hope for “God” seems childish, a strategy giving away responsibility onto false “Authorities”. Perhaps, if there would be a little option of getting “God” active, and so far any doing is needed; it needs a material operator, something like Humans. Seemingly, it is our decision if it is Hell or Heaven.
What a few high spirit individuals have found is only of any interest if it helps giving Humanity that significance we are worthy of.
I remember a little report about the Mururoa Atoll, a women was interviewed and asked what they could do against. She answered crying, “We couldn’t do anything”.
President Dwight D. Eisenhower, Nov. 8, 1954 said:
“Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party in our political history. There is a little tiny group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are…Texas oil millionaires and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”
Preetam – gotta get me a copy of that Eisenhower speech…never knew…could have used that quote in this recent U.S. election (many loyal, Republican hardline, old-timers loved that guy and that quote spread all across the country would have given many right-wingers ulcers and grey hairs).
There’s always a next time – unless of course you’re a Mayan Doomsday cult follower.
Seems like no new thought-provoking or even simple essay is being written on any of the sannyas websites, otherwise editors of this site would have taken that for the new thread.
This thread has lived its shelf value.
Shantam,
It seems to me that the thing about sannyasnews is that it is circular not linear. If you prefer something linear I suggest you read Letters to the Editor from the Times Literary Supplement.
This is the Sannyas Literary Supplement in case you have forgotten.
responding to the original thread subject…
osho ends by saying:
“Naturally, every Buddha has to go to jail, and every Buddha has to be killed or crucified.”
Lokesh and some others here have balked at this, and i agree with you’all…
Another of Osho’s gross exaggerations. in fact most “buddhas”(as known by religious consensus, if nothing else) did not go to jail, are not killed, or crucified.
Gautam Buddha himself supposedly lived into his 80s, never jailed, or much harassed even. on the dusty roads and villages of India his whole life, without security or defensive weapons to protect him, he basically went unscathed for 40 years til his death — even his alleged demise by food poisoning of murderous intent is disputed. food poisoning is common in India, 25 centuries ago, and even today — all sannyasins who lived in India know that well.
in china, all the Zen masters are considered “buddhas”. (i had at one time the list of 15,000 of them on my website(now unfortunately shut down completely by my web host server Yahoo, after a copyright infringement claim was sent to them by Osho International Foundation).
none of these guys were jailed, or harmed in any way by the authorities. in fact, they were highly regarded and respected by even the Chinese emperors.
Gurjieff, Krishnamurti, Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, etc, etc…all the ones that sannyasins always mention as “enlightened”… Papaji, Rumi, the Tibetan Buddhists, the list is so long. Jailed, hurt, or killed? Very, very rarely.
The ones that come to mind that got the shaft in the end were Jesus and Mansoor al Hilaj, but those two guys were definitely asking for it, as far as i can see from the historical records available. Most here know the Jesus story well, but a French writer wrote an extended history of Mansoor in the 20th century, the authorities gave ole Manny every opportunity(over a period of 11 years i think in jail) to recant a bit on his “I am God!” braggadacio, but he wouln’t budge from it. these Middle Eastern guys are a stubborn lot, for sure.
oh, i forgot…you can throw Socrates into this bunch too…Jews, Arabs, and Greeks, proud and arrogant to the last breath.
Bob – you forgot about Rasputin. Was Osho a reincarnation of that guy? They tried to poison him, stab him, yet in the end he died of drowning. An aberration?
From all accounts, Rasputin was definitely a hard guy to bring down and take out. The Czar’s secret police hit unit had their hands full, no doubt about it…
I don’t think reincarnation is real, so your question about our man Osho is moot, IMO.
But, they both had those mesmerizing eyes and that almost hypnotic look,
and both had a very definite charm with the ladies….
bob- you must be a catholic gone under cover
Mid East guys are not just stubborn, they’re psychos…Too much sand, sun and heat will definitely fry the brain.
bob.
sad to hear that your “living workshop” site was closed down by OFI.
it was an interesting site.
the historical on the history of “osho” was invaluable.
i guess that makes you a persecuted buddha!
what next?
maybe its time to open the
“osho donkey dick soup restaurant?”
for sure, it would get more customers than the resort…..
Osho Bob – very sorry to hear about your site.
Those who are persecuted, they are the authentic ones.
Start another one, and you’ll get my support and publicity for sure. Do you want to write about your site being closed down? SN would give space to any article you wanted to post.
Parmartha
No one really knows about the Buddhas and Jesus of long ago, and in particular what their contemporaries thought of them when they were alive, or even just after they left the body. My bet is that there were people around who said they weren’t “real” masters, and there were those disciples drawn to them who then found the heat too strong and left nursing their egos and muttered betrayal-like judgements.
In our times, Gurdjieff – you can still read in old newspapers how the ordinary man thought about him. Devil, womaniser, drug addict, etc. Even statements like his disciples were more worthy than him…and disciples like Ouspensky, who left him and berated him. But what does real history now show – a great man striving tirelessly to wake up those drawn to him. And who himself was disappointed in the disciples drawn to him.
I would say that persecution itself is a sign of a great spiritual adventurer’s authenticity.
Parmartha,
My bet is you are probably right. It was St.Paul who spread Christianity and he never met Jesus in the flesh. Jesus wouldn’t know what to make of the vatican and christianity today.
Interesting comments about Buddhas being persecuted. If one takes Osho literally one can get into trouble. Jesus was obviously not a Buddha in the classical sense. One has to give Osho some poetic licence here. He is speaking to a Western audience who can identify with the Jesus myth, story, narrative. Osho wasn’t a biblical scholar.
If one doesn’t take Osho’s statements completely literally and one also takes into account the context, one may not reply in a literal but limited manner. One could then mount a case for many Buddhas or mystics being persecuted. For instance, The Zen master Ikkyu who was arguable the most brilliant of Zen teachers was appointed headmaster at Daitokuji, the great temple in Kyoto, but he lasted only nine days before denouncing the rampant hypocrisy among the monks. Ikkyu, I guess, was part of the crazy wisdom tradition and spent his life rubbishing conventional Buddhist communities. I’ve posted a couple of his poems. There are no doubt more like him.
Widening the discussion I think Aung San Suu Kyi is one of the great contemporary figures who meditates for long hours and is a Buddhist. She has through her efforts brought the plight of the Burmese people to the rest of the world. Another figure who comes to mind is Martin Luther King who isn’t regarded as an enlightened being but was a profoundly spiritual person who was influenced by Gandhi.
Rumi has also been mentioned as enlightened by some but he wasn’t a Buddhist. Lets not forget he was inspired by Shams who was murdered. Does one dismiss early radical Christians and people like Thomas Moore who put their lives on the line? Great teachers have always been shakers.
I also find that the idealization of the Buddhist tradition by Westerners a bit naive. Friends I know have pointed out to me that there are monks in charge of monasteries who do not meditate and they are no different from members of any other clerical tradition. There is also rivalry between Buddhist sects and the head monks or gurus. This happens throughout Burma and Thailand, according to a monk I know. He once told me an interesting account of a Buddhist sect protesting against the Dalai Lama’s arrival in London. Apparently members of the Dalai Lama’s sect were responsible for the murder of members of the sect protesting.
Authenticity is an interesting one. Few people know that the head of the Japanese Aum cult, who committed the terrorist attact some years back, had studied Tibetan Buddhism in India and apparently made great progress. The Dalai Lama acknowledged this in a radio interview. When asked what happened he said the guru reached great heights and that from here it is easy to fall. The Dalai Lama then laughed in his usual way.
Finally, Osho was dragged from one prison to another and it was wealthy sannyasins who got him out of the ‘slammer.’ No doubt Hasya and the ‘Hollywood Crew’ played a part in picking up the mess. They obviously did some good. What I find interesting was how you were told by Hasya and Amrito that you were risking your sannyas with your publications after the ranch folded. It seems to me that these guys were genuine but perhaps misguided. You were being persecuted.
roman says:
“Parmartha,
My bet is you are probably right. It was St.Paul who spread Christianity and he never met Jesus in the flesh. Jesus wouldn’t know what to make of the Vatican and Christianity today.”
St Paul was a Roman. Saint Helena and St Constantine the other two big Xtian spreaders were also Roman. Xtianity was the continuation of the Roman Empire after its collapse. Both Tsar and Kaiser come from Caesar.
Vartan
Vartan,
Tsar Nicholas actually believed god spoke to him. Whatever happened, it was God’s will. A medieval Tsar in the twentieth century. I would have loved to have been in Russia Feb/October 1917. Warren Beatty’s ‘Reds’ is a pretty good film on the civil war. You’ve probably seen it? I’ve got friends whose grandparents were in the Bund (the Jewish communists).
roman says:
“………I’ve got friends whose grandparents were in the Bund (the Jewish communists)”
Cool.
Greater Russia, after the overrun of the Byzantine Empire (the christianised Romans) by the Ottomans, adopted all the symbols (the double headed eagle, etc) and orthodoxy of the Byzantines, to give themselves an identity, a unifying moral code, and to be the continuation of ‘something’.
In a way the Russian communist revolution was a Jewish revolution. And many of those that went on to create Israel were communists and kibbutzniks. From the muslim viewpoint the creation of Israel is just the latest of the west’s crusades. And to the western capitalist, Osho was a communist, who was not clever enough to be a zionist. Osho was also secretly anti-colonial. I say secretly because only other anti-colonials could see it. Obama is a big anti-colonial. As it happens I am pro-colonial. It’s a strange world.
Vartan
oh yeah.
i`m pro-colonial,too.
i`d have the empire back today,if i could.
i would install shantam as my punkah-wallah and gin and tonic gofer ….
i could sit on the verandah with prince philip,laugh about the natives and god would be back in his heaven and all would be right with the world…..