Julian Assange is currently under the protection of the Ecuadorean embassy in London. The Ecuadorean government has found that Mr. Assange’s application for asylum is justified; additional material he submitted shows that he has a well-founded fear of political persecution, and risks torture or the death penalty in the United States in connection with the publication of truthful information of matters of interest to the public through his work with WikiLeaks.
Ever since Tony Blair and George W. Bush became best cousins and went to war against Iraq together, it appears British authorities are still in a lingering embrace with American authorities. Otherwise why would the British government make such a dim decision as to threaten Ecuador to suspend their embassy’s diplomatic status if they continue to shelter Mr. Assange, and moreover, threaten to have the British police enter the embassy building by force.
Julian Assange gives a statement from a balcony at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London to waiting press and supporters.
All this was about one Australian man who is being sought merely for questioning (no charge or conviction) over sex crime allegations in Sweden? A diplomatic stand-off, accusations flying left and right while most of South America’s nations back Ecuador, scores of police surrounding the embassy building besieged by an unprecedented hostile British media who went even as far as accusing Ecuador’s president, Rafael Correa, of being a corrupt dictator. The spin doctors who wrote this script did an awful job and it is obvious that America, the self-styled sheriff of this planet, is behind it all. Again.
As reported by the Guardian ( a paper not always in favour of Julian Assange) on August 21, 2012, “A grand jury in Virginia has been preparing a case against Assange and WikiLeaks for espionage, a leak earlier this year suggested that the US government has already issued a secret indictment against Assange, while Australian diplomats have reported that the WikiLeaks founder is the target of an investigation that is ‘unprecedented both in its scale and its nature’.”
At this point in the developments we should recall the allegations made against Osho while he was staying abroad on his world tour, and most notably while in Uruguay, a country with a government that at the time had the guts to grant him a one year visa. However, the American government in their witch hunt against Osho managed to put so much pressure on the Uruguayan government that they were compelled to ask Osho to leave:
Osho tells the story here:
The American government has been telling all the governments of the world that I should not be allowed, even as a tourist, in their countries. One small country, Uruguay, in South America, was very happy that I had come there, because the president had been reading my books, and he had not dreamt that I would ever come to Uruguay. So he said, “We will make every effort to give you land, so that you can create a community. Because not only will we be enriched by your presence and your disciples, but thousands of pilgrims will start coming; and we are a poor country – it will be a financial gain too.” And he immediately managed a one-year residence visa for me.
But when the American president, Ronald Reagan, became aware of it – the American ambassador in Uruguay informed him – he threatened the president of Uruguay: “Within thirty-six hours Osho should leave the country. Otherwise you will have to return all the loans that we have given you in the past, and all the loans – billions of dollars – which we were going to give you in the coming two years will not be given. So you can choose.”
Now, Uruguay cannot manage to return the money and cannot afford not to take billions of dollars in the coming two years, because her whole planning is based on those billions of dollars. The whole economy of the country would collapse. The president had tears in his eyes when he told me, “Your coming to our country has at least made me aware of one thing: that we are not independent. We have been living under a delusion.
“You will have to leave. It is illegal – because you have a valid residence visa for one year; and you have not committed any heinous crime – that is the only reason that a residence visa can be canceled.” And I had only been there one month. And he said, “It is unfortunate that I have to do it. I am doing it against my own conscience.”
Even this much the American president was not willing to concede: that I should simply leave the country. My plane was standing at the airport… I said, “There is no problem; I can leave the country. I will not put your country into such jeopardy.”
He said, “The American president insists that you should be deported; you should not leave the country without being deported. I am forced to commit crimes: first, to tell you for no reason to leave the country; you have done nothing. Second, to deport you. But I am absolutely helpless. Still, I want one thing: that on your passport there should be no stamp of deportation from Uruguay. We have a small airport – so move your airplane to that airport, and in the evening leave without informing us; so we can say, `He left without informing us. There was no time to deport him.’”
But he was wrong. As my jet moved to the small airport – the American embassy must have been watching – the American ambassador was there with all the stamps and the official whose business it is to deport people. I was delayed there, because they had to fill in all the forms, and as I left the country, I said, “It doesn’t matter….” In fact, my passport has become a historical document: I have been deported from so many countries without any reason.
Osho, The Rebellious Spirit, Ch 25, Q 1
The above is partly based on an article by Bhagawati.
‘s conspiracy by the Masons. The Illuminati.
Obvious innit.
????Really!!!!!
I am not totally convinced that Julian Assange has not been a CIA asset, even perhaps without his full knowledge. I would classify him more with Bin Laden (another CIA worm-that-turned) than Osho.
If at first we went to Uruguay instead of the States, the story might have played out differently. We have proved that we know very little about politics and how to play them so really we should stay with the subjects we know. Poking the USA has cost Osho his life, so why are we poking again? My feeling is that Jayesh and Amrito have also been ‘spoken to’ by the CIA.
Vartan
agree
Vartan says, ‘Poking the USA has cost Osho his life.’
I am not at all sure of that and I think the connection being drawn between Julian Assange and Osho is just as spurious.
Lokesh says:
Vartan says, ‘Poking the USA has cost Osho his life.’
I am not at all sure of that.’
It most definitely cost him his dream.
Somehow we forgot that you have to become a monster in order to fight monsters. I suggest we stay away from monsters altogether.
Vartan
What came first? The monsters or the monster?
Yes, better classify with Bin laden. Those people like Assange and Laden, even if it looks their opposition, they possibly aren’t. Looked a few years how in practice they established their structure within the heads of the people, to get in charge. It’s nearly impossible to find out while a person is alive if he defiantly is involved within the structure or only henchman. That whole structure is a bit like a trust and they take care if you have severed. If you were selected, and said “yes”, the structure and those people are your commitment, one has to be absolutely loyal their whole life and with all one has, including his life and death. If they are in charge of a country all have to pay with their life blood, until one breaks the wall himself.
Isn’t the US nothing else than the British dogsbody for the rough work? If one does a good research, easy to find out the everlasting connection between British and US presidents. With people like Assange they are focusing away from their actual crusade of murderer, and it is not the first crusade in that area. It’s not only about Oil, much more is behind. There they have the roots, because this structure in process is old, comes from old Persia, over Egypt, Greece, Rome into our present time by the same old laws of how to behave for keeping the power over human capital.
The capital city of human repression is London, there the twine comes together. Nobody knows better how to make a colony and now of the whole planet a colony. Yes, it is not easy for Sannyas, to understand the background of the common; it was always frowned upon speaking over so-called negative.
Still, I would bet that the reason Osho was handcuffed perhaps was that two people were with him.
You can always count on Americans to do the right thing – after they’ve tried everything else.
Winston Churchill
For those like Young Sannyasin who maybe wasn’t around in 1986 it is difficult to appreciate how “persecuted” Osho was during his life. I know there are those who waft in the nether worlds of paranoia, but there was no paranoia there and then, the persecution was very real.
21 countries rejected him, and for what?? Never very clear what the answer was on that score. In the UK for example, he was even denied to stay in a transit lounge whilst waiting for another plane.
Nonetheless, a Home Office official read this out to Osho and his group at Heathrow: “You are not welcome in England. Your presence here is seen as a public menace and a threat to public order, and your immediate departure from this country is requested, etc.”
I myself wrote to Mr Hurd, the Home Office Minister at the time, to accompany 1000 signatures that Prem Joe and people like myself had got together. My letter is printed on page 437 of Juliet Foreman’s book, “Bhagwan: One man against the whole ugly past of humanity”. Also there you will find a reply from a certain Miss Ward from the Home Office three months later. She at least had the temerity to inform me that “If the Bhagwan is unhappy about the refusal (to enter the UK) he may, of course, appeal to the independent appellate authorities.”
To be honest, I wish that Osho and his entourage had appealed. At that time I could have had a “crowd” at the Court, and offered Osho support, and caused a televisual scene with absurdist elements!
He was teaching us something about Heroes and Villains. Villains and Victims. Heroes and Victims.
Just a thought. !!!
Parmartha – yes, Osho was persecuted in the 1980′s and even the 1970′s for that matter, but that was his own doing…he opened his big, fat mouth and criticized the powers that be, in the U.S. and India. You seem to forget he was harassed by Indian authorities until of course he could pay them off with huge bribes… The Indians would sell their so-called “morals” if the price were high enough…I suppose the cost matches the ego…a lowly cop directing traffic can be paid off with a few rupees, while high government officials, believing themselves to be of superior stock to that of a cop, demand much more cash to look the other way.
So, Osho jets it to the States, at Sheela’s request, checks out the digs in Oregon (famously telling her that “she must have had her head up her ass” when she purchased the ranch), sits around during the day doing nothing (until his luxurious home gets built, swimming pool and all), takes daily spins to a nearby town (Antelope and the surrounding countryside) in his one of many Rolls Royces, goes back home and sits chilly, deciding to let the motormouths (Sheela and co.) do all the verbal damage.
Finally, when he discovers their back-stabbing treachery, decides to break his self-imposed silence and continue to do more damage with the locals and host country.
Something that you and other conspirators forget is that when you’re a guest in someone else’s home, you need to be on your best behaviour, unless of course you have a death wish. What else did you expect? They’re going to come after him, they had him targeted, in their bullseye, his number was up.
Out he goes, he got lucky. he could have gotten 10 years in prison for the shit he did. What troubles me is that the rest of them got away with light sentences – for attempted murder for Christ’s sake!!! There are people in jail for that long just for selling less than a half a kilo of pot!! Sheela and her gang must have had something on the gov’t to get away almost scot-free. That’s usually the way it works with gov’t officials.
So Osho just asked to get booted outta this country. Trouble with these types of mystics – their big fat mouths get them in trouble, then they go crying to their disciples, that the whole world is after them.
It is hardly surprising that Osho became a pariah on the international stage and it had nothing to do with radical spirituality. The scene in Rajneeshpuram turned into a shambles. Osho’s disciples poisoned hundreds of men, women and children in their dumb-witted attempt to manipulate local elections. How would you feel if some crazy foreigners arrived in your neighbourhood, set up a commune and then poisoned your kids? You’d be outraged and quite rightly so. If you don’t agree you need to visit a psychiatrist urgently. That alone is enough to gain notoriety. At the time, there were a lot of other illegal things going on beside that: false marriages, sannyasins doing international drug runs etc. Many sannyasins today want to completely deny this and then cry foul when Osho gets a bad rap.
I find it hard to believe that Osho’s death was caused by thallium poisoning, but it is possible…not because Osho’s radical ideas were going to change the world and posed some great threat to the status quo, but because of the completely insane actions performed by a bunch of idiots who were in one way or another working in an organization, of which he was head and then the American system wanted an eye for an eye, in a typical Old Testement style act of retribution. Nothing mysterious about that and I’m sure many American citizens then and now believe it was justifiable.
Isn’t the most common Tool in History, get rid of somebody inconvenient, poisoning him? Good citizens believe what they were made to think. For me, hard to believe that it was not poison that killed Osho.
Who stands behind would be an interesting perspective. Three possibilities being not informed, we are worthless in the eyes of a few, somebody does not want to give us the true information, or we couldn’t see truth perhaps because it was disguised. We are left in speculations, by authorities who obviously have been the wrong people, they want to be undisturbed by their doings.
You might be correct, Preetam, but there again, you might not. And from your general perspective, communicated here at length over time, it might easily be inferred that such a conclusion would be “convenient” for you too…As a ‘good historian’, you are aware of your own bias, I trust?!
I’ve no axe to grind one way or another, but there’s also a case for the adverse effects of having taken nitrous oxide over a long period of time. I was quite shocked the other day to read that a 17 year-old had died from nitrous oxide poisoning after taking it at a party in north London (I’ve put up the story at Caravanserai, see list of Topics there).
Then there’s also Osho’s pre-condition of poor health to be considered…
I’d generally agree with Lokesh in that for sannyasins to take a stance of Osho as being purely a ‘victim’ (or hence, perhaps more importantly, as ‘victims’ themselves) is well short of the truth.
Anyway, we’ll never know and perhaps it ultimately doesn’t really matter that much. As my History teacher would say, “In the long run, we’re all dead”, so better make best use of whatever time is left….
Still, anything can kill if you have bad luck. I remember ten years ago or more there was a terrible rumpus in the press because a young girl died from ecstacy. Yet according to the Daily Mail, “The truth is, they’re right: after 15 years, the number of deaths from this drug is still in the order of dozens rather than hundreds. Our perceptions are skewed by the huge shock-horror headlines accorded to every Ecstasy death, whereas the much higher numbers of young people killed in car accidents or by cancer or even glue sniffing (75 young people compared to eight per year) rarely merit a mention.
By current estimates, around a million pills are being swallowed every weekend, which makes the risk of dying from a single Ecstasy tablet even smaller than being struck by lightning or perhaps, winning a substantial prize on the lottery. Savvy ecstasy users know this.”
Probably same is true of nitrous oxide.
Alok J, it is a bit of a tired topic but if interested on the ecstasy subject this is highly recommended viewing. That it was made by ABC news just makes it that bit more poignant.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Perhaps so, Alok – but I guess it’s also arguable that it might not be ideal for a middle-aged diabetic also not in the best of health in other respects (Osho), to consume nitrous oxide over lengthy periods of time?
In fact, might not any ‘ordinary’ person suffering similar health issues and putting himself in that situation be termed more than slightly foolish? So perhaps arguably more, or at least equally, a question of poor judgment rather than “bad luck”?
I know it is a bore, but from one article in the Osho Times, two or three from Viha Connection, and Lokesh’s friend who carried canisters of the gas to Osho’s house, we do not know how much gas he took over the years. We await D or the dental nurses to enlighten us, though I doubt they ever will.
All else is speculation.
To enter into this world you have to be imperfect. It is said in old scriptures that whenever a man comes near perfection – many times it has happened – he will leave something imperfect in order to come back again and help people. It is said of Ramakrishna that he was addicted to food, just obsessed, as if the whole day he was thinking of food. He would be talking to his disciples and
whenever he got a chance he would just go into the kitchen to ask his wife, ”What’s new? What new thing are you preparing today?” Even his wife felt very embarrassed many times, and she would say, ”Paramahansa Deva, this doesn’t suit you.” And he would laugh.
One day his wife persisted, saying, ”Even your disciples laugh about it and they say, ’What type of liberated man is Paramahansa? – he is so addicted to food!’ Whenever Sharda, his wife, brought food, he would immediately stand to look in the thali and see what she had brought. He would forget everything about Vedanta, the Brahman, and sometimes it was very embarrassing because there were people there, and they had never thought, they could never conceive….
So one day his wife persisted, ”Why do you do this? There must be some reason.” Ramakrishna said, ”The day I don’t do it, then you can count three more days that I will be alive. The day I stop, that will be the signal that I will be here only three more days.” His wife laughed, the disciples laughed. They said, ”This is no explanation!” They couldn’t follow what he meant.
But it happened this way. One day his wife came in and he was lying on his bed resting. He turned aside – usually he would have jumped out of the bed to see. And his wife remembered that he had said that he would live only three more days the day he showed his indifference towards food. She couldn’t hold the thali; the thali dropped and she started crying. Ramakrishna said, ”But you all wanted it to be so. Now, don’t get worried about it. I am here for three more days.” And the third day he died. Before dying he said that he had been clinging to food just as a part of something imperfect in him, so that he could be here and serve you.
Many masters have done that. The moment they feel that something is going to become completely perfect in them, they will cling to some imperfection just to be here; otherwise this bank is not for them. If all the fetters are broken then their boat sails towards the other bank, then it cannot remain here. They will keep one fetter: they will keep some relationship, they will choose some weakness in themselves and they will not allow it to disappear. The circle will not be complete, a gap will remain.
Through that gap they can remain here. That’s why Hindus, Buddhists, Jainas, who know very deeply because they have known many masters, know well that perfection is not of this world. The moment the circle is complete it disappears from your eyes. You cannot see, it is not then on the line of your vision, it has gone above you – you cannot penetrate there.
Osho.
The Mustard Seed: My Most Loved Gospel on Jesus
Chapter 15. Poet of the Ultimate.
Nothing new.
At the same time a culture war was under way as a group dominated by the literary scholar Frederick Crews attacked Freud’s character and reputation, highlighting his personal drug use and perceived ethical shortcomings as evidence that the whole psychoanalytic edifice was a sham.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jun/01/adam-phillips-life-in-writing
Yes, here there is a point often covered in shadow:
Is it him who told to Sheela and others to say all those stupid insults to the local people? Is it him who give instructions about poisoning innocent people? And if not him, who else? Sheela on herself? Some CIA agents? Possible to have a logical discussion about it? Oh no, we have all to repeat the mantra of the new religion:”the past doesn’t matter, live in the present…”
How boring this present would be if you have to repeat again and again the same program given from him in the 70′s, again and again….
Very unlikely that he instructed Sheela to poison people. If he had, Sheela would have told FBI (that is just what they wanted to hear,), and the Old Boy would have been prosecuted for conspiracy to cause GBH or similar.
YS, you ask, “Is it him who told to Sheela and others to say all those stupid insults to the local people?”
In The Osho, Secretary movie, Osho talks about people complaining about Sheela’s outrageous behaviour and he concluded by saying, “She is not doing enough!”
Plenty of laughs, with Sheela all shy and tender to one side, as if to say, “You see, I was only doing the master’s bidding.” Osho began to seriously back-pedal a few weeks later when the shit hit the fan and it looked like he’d gotten himself into a very serious situation as regards the American justice system.
YS then asks, “Is it him who give instructions about poisoning innocent people?”
I seriously doubt that going on the man I knew. I parted company with Osho in 1981 and never saw him again. It is quite obvious that Osho underwent some kind of ‘losing the plot’ phase, but even taking that into account it still is hard to fit with the gentle, intelligent and kind man I once knew. Then again, one never knows and in this case I’d say it will probably remain that way. Ultimately, the way we believe the world to be, the world will appear and I don’t believe that Osho would have been behind such a vile act.
YS concludes by saying, “How boring this present would be if you have to repeat again and again the same programme given from him in the 70′s, again and again.”
There he loses me, because the seventies with Osho was a time of much programming as well as deprogramming. Sounds to me like YS has got stuck with a bit of a programme himself in regards to such things. On the other hand, I do meet sannyasins who are running around with programmes from 70′s Poona. I had it the other day when one sannyasin woman would simply not own up to being angry and instead tried to hide behind the idea that it was all energy. Energy! I don’t have the energy for that kind of energy any more.
So, YS, I trust you enjoyed my response. A sentence which conains three seventies programmes which are as valid today as they were back in the good old days.
Only a handful of sannyasins did the poisoning, maybe a half dozen at the most…Sheela was paranoid and only trusted a few to do her dirty work. The hundreds of us there had no fucking idea what was really going on with her. The typical – “trust Osho”, he put Sheela there for reason, don’t question, don’t challenge, just accept, stupidity.
That wasn’t a commune in my mind, for commune means a community where everyone has a say in the day-to-day operations and goals of the community; that definitely didn’t happen…our own fault for being gullible. Lesson Learned? Seems not…stupidity still rules in sannyas world.
Osho often said that his commune was not a democracy. He was definitely telling the truth. Yet so many who heard his words obviously did not listen to what the man was saying.
It would be refreshing to move on from this ‘did Osho know?’ theme, which has already been covered in much depth on this site.
Tell that to Parmartha
No, we don’t move. We will stay there until the truth comes out.
Anyway, all the aeons the same confrontation, if a group stands up for love and celebration, for a healthier way of living. With liking, people if they ask questions or worse, giving answers have been disparaged, deceived by their own people, sealed alive in walls, or quartered, poisoned, hanged, burnt alive, crucified (did I miss something?).
Again and again, people pass the buck onto those people who at least give it a try to break the wall of hostilities. Strange stories are created, just for keeping the shade dark enough. It’s more a spiritual conflict, not only a nice party, just having some pleasure and going back into the old; it is a rebellion against the false.
Seems all the lies are rooted at least in spirituality, but even truth is there…maybe that’s why the big interest in Spirituality, from both sides and always the same confrontation…Till now we have been permitted to get frustrated by the minority of so-called authorities and lower interest of Royals.
I remember years ago, reading some study about what happens to ‘spiritual’ groups when they get singled out and start being attacked – the change of dynamics within the group, etc. In our case, the people defending us were not up to the job. They didn’t know (thank God) how to self-sacrifice (as in chess) in order to gain advantage.
Unfortunately, we were the kind of group that (apart from having our own island) we were going to be attacked anyway, wherever we went.
To my mind, the damage limitation efforts worked well, every step of the way. Considering the number of people Osho stirred around the planet and the kind of things he had them doing, plus whatever they were doing on their own backs – I am happily suprised that so few died or were seriously hurt. Trust me, things could have been a lot worse. We had a lot of nutters amongst us.
Vartan
Vartan wrote, “I am happily suprised that so few died or were seriously hurt. Trust me, things could have been a lot worse. We had a lot of nutters amongst us.”
I have always thought that as well. The “energies”, particularly at Rajneeshpuram, were quite crazy and dangerous in my opinion. It was a miracle that things did not work out a lot worse.
You had to live there to know – only a few were truly crazy – those were the ones in charge…the rest of us – mostly naive, gullible, lost souls, looking for a utopia. The bleeding heart gets a person into trouble way too often, a little common sense and practicality is needed for balance.
Didn’t Osho say something like: “Those who love me, I will live in their heart and those who hate me, I will live in their minds”.
Loads of mind-f..ck on this site for sure….
Chetna, it might be your opinion that there is loads of mind-fuck on this site for sure, which only leaves me with one question; why do you bother to visit the site? Curiosity? Boredom? Slumming? I’m genuinely curious to hear your answer.
Sannyas is mind-fucking…since the beginning in the 1970′s…where were you back then? Easy to say that shit now, how about back during the mind-fucking days of the ranch – Sheela and her gang’s “Mind-Fucking” the whole commune and worldwide ashrams – for more money? Use your head, not your weak heart next time babe!!
Chetna says:
“Didn’t Osho say something like: “Those who love me, I will live in their heart and those who hate me, I will live in their minds”. Loads of mind-f..ck on this site for sure….”
The Net, and Net forums specifically, are text-based mediums and as such the mind is still needed in order to engage. I don’t live in the mind, I just have access to it. If you want a display, just stand in my way. In next few years to come the cyberspace will come out (evert) from inside the computers and will overlay the planet.
Festo – SmartBird
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Vartan
Amazing video, but somehow chilling as well, as we attempt to imitate life forms, but leave out the Life that sustains the ‘original model’.
I fear for the coming generations if they’re going to have to put up with this stuff. They’ll eventually barely know what’s real…sensibility degenerating…the rot’s well under way already, but we ain’t seen nothing yet….
Lokesh, I think fundamentally this is a great site. I like reading stories of sannyasins and their opinions. So I visit this site sometimes and get that satisfaction. Sannyasins’ sharing can be an inspiration and learning. However, most of the time the mind-f..ck is happening here on the same topics on and on….Mostly I mean comments rather than articles.
I think that many of the active participants here (I obviously do not mean all people contributing here) do not even like Osho, forget about being a sannyasin of Osho. Therefore listening to their mind junk makes it less interesting and boring. So when I am really bored, I do not read at all.
I have read you once saying that you visit this site, Lokesh, to develop your writing skills, which is a bit bizarre. Is it so? Didn’t you leave Osho a long time ago and have no connection to him whatsoever? So why to develop writing skills on sannyasins’ website and not elsewhere?
Where I am going with this is basically to the fundamental “crack” of sannays movement worldwide, where even a site like this produces more criticism and boring mind-f..ck than inspiration, love and laughter, which is the way of my Master, in my opinion.
I am not for hiding the truth, of course, so it is good that people share their not so rosy experiences but generally, what is being said in comments is negative speculation….
Love
C.
I do see your point, Chetna, yet you might be over-reacting a bit here. The recent debate, centering around who or what was responsible for Osho’s seemingly premature death isn’t necessarily a minor issue that should be swept under the carpet.
To imagine that the whole truth is that he was in effect assassinated by the US government might well tend – despite the despicable nature of such a crime – to keep supporters of this line, eg Preetam, in a sort of ‘comfort zone’, where they can share a sort of ‘victim’ status with Osho.
It’s worth challenging this by pointing out that other factors might also have had a bearing upon his early passing, even if some of these might appear to contradict this belief of ‘Osho as 100% victim’. Is this what you call “negative speculation”? Or does that term include the whole spectrum of this enquiry?
Isn’t this very much tied up with differing concepts of who a Master is? Either we imagine him to be incapable of so-called ‘wrongdoing’, of mistakes (perhaps in terms pf practical, worldly action and also including possible recklessness with his own health) or we are able to embrace the idea that, despite ‘perfect consciousness’, on other levels he’s at times imperfect, not ‘infallible’ at all.
I’m comfortable with this last idea, but I accept that we just don’t know who or what killed Osho.
Anyway, at the end of the day I realise that for many, such considerations are very far from being in any way priorities, so, in the words of the prophet, ‘Each to their Own’.
Well put, SD.
I reckon bad health killed Osho. The whole thallium thing does not ring true because that element does its work quickly when swallowed, even in a small amount. It is easy to understand why many support the idea that he was poisoned by the powers-that-be because in essence it makes Osho look like a martyr, someone who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles. I just find that impossible to swallow.
On the other hand, it does not look so cool to say that Osho’s life was cut short due to substance abuse, especially taking into account his general anti-drug stance. I only ever once saw Osho condone a sannyasin’s psychoactive drug use.
Lokesh – people love drama and nothing more is a greater drama than a conspiracy theory…Makes great headlines for the local clique, good for constant raising of money for support of the organization. AND – It NEVER goes away!!! A fall back when funds and interest gets scarce. Life is just too dull for the bored and restless.
Well, I have been known to be a bit of a drama queen myself. I try to curb that tendency as it is not becoming of a man of my years, or so I imagine. Still, every once in a while, I put on my make-up and hit the stage, ready to live out yet another wee drama. Somehow, from where I am standing, drama appears very much tied up with human existence. Reaching for my telescope, I scan the sky and notice there is quite a drama being enacted in the heavens also, think star nurseries. Let’s expand that – Drama appears to be central to the whole of creation.
Lokesh says:
Drama appears to be central to the whole of creation.
Drama comes from the Greek “dran” meaning “action” (δρᾶμα, drama), which is derived from “to do” or “to act”. So drama away!
Vartan
Chetna, you kind of ask and state, ‘Didn’t you leave Osho a long time ago and have no connection to him whatsoever?’
That depends how you view time and what you mean by connection. I pretty much lived in Poona One from the beginning until the end. During that time I probably sat and talked to Osho on well over a hundred occasions. I loved the man and he helped me when I needed help and as the saying goes, a friend in need is a friend indeed. I never consciously left Osho…my life simply went in a direction that took me somewhere wherein my physical connection with Osho was broken. A part of me always thought I’d see him again one day, but that was not meant to be.
I think the notion of spending a lot of time around a guru equating with spiritual growth and deepening connection with the guru is, for the most part, a complete myth. Some people only need to meet a master for five minutes and get it, while others sit around for decades and don’t. I found it particularly refreshing to meet H W L Poonja, who said that basically what he had to teach could be learned within a few days. I know people who have been sannyasins for over three decades and they look lost and live their lives by a set of principles that an intelligent person would have left behind in their youth.
Chetna, you say, ‘I have read you once saying that you visit this site, Lokesh, to develop your writing skills, which is a bit bizarre.’ I don’t experience that as being bizarre at all. What is strikingly unconventional and far-fetched in style or appearance about using a blog site to keep your hand in at writing? There is more to it than that, of course. I enjoy SN. There are some witty and fun people writing on this site and I dig that. Besides, holding me to something I said in context and some time ago at that is not very sannyas-like now is it? If you held Osho to such an unflexible view his contradictory way of communicating would be even more contradictory than it already is…if that is possible. Didn’t Osho once say something along the lines of it being the case that when an Indian guru goes to America it signals the downfall of him/her? This could have been a premonition in relation to himself, but apart fom that it simply isn’t true.
Chetna, you conclude by saying, ‘I am not for hiding the truth, of course, so it is good that people share their not so rosy experiences but generally, what is being said in comments is negative speculation.’ I disagree and I detect an element of confusion in such a statement. That is one thing you learn when writing a lot and that is to read between the lines to an extent that your average person (in the sense that they don’t write much) cannot imagine. This is just one of many insights gained through constant writing. I reccommend it highly and then perhaps things will no longer look quite so bizarre.
It’s important that the world knows what the likes of Swami Jimmy Savile, therapist, was getting up to in the 70′s and 80′s.
Members of the bbcult might try and hush it up, but there’s always one or two who sing eventually.
“But he did so much work for consciousness. Nobody has ever raised so much energy for consciousness, you know.”
Swami Savile gave shaktipat transmissions with his big cigar and had the same taste in cars as Osho. Now the Illuminati are trying to tarnish his image. This is all part of a global conspiracy to enslave humanity. Have any of you noticed the strange looking chemtrails in the sky? Swami Savile was ahead of his time. I once saw him on Juke Box Jury and when he heard Engelburton Humpledick singing ‘Jailbait’ he gave it a resounding foive!
Interesting discussion of thallium use as a poison by the secret services of several countries here:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oQMdzmnReZ8C&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=thallium+used+by+secret+service&source=bl&ots=qAXU-4yqny&sig=6oRGBYrHpwennD1qHLimje4xOD8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CI11UPWUAoST0QWj7IG4DA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=thallium%20used%20by%20secret%20service&f=false
AJ, funny enough, I read something along those lines earlier today. Thallium poisoning usually makes a person’s hair fall out. Did Osho use a ZZ Top kit to thwart the Lizards’ and Illuminatis’ attempt at world domination? That is the hot question that everyone wants to know the answer to.
Who cares about Illuminati and world domination? World domination is already reality, what other for Monarchy, Politics, Bilderberger and all that try to impress people by pomp and showing-off; those people only know well how make wars for keeping people under continuous pressure. What else are those organizations good for, using the old Ploughshare amulet that is described in the Atharva Veda for Human welfare, not for our repression?
For me, good to know the face, that all along human history has restrained human welfare for their own goals of dominating the whole scene in order to keep people disconnected from themselves, making them separated. If we know the faces and goals of those people, our true alignment becomes more obvious, and the seed of ignorance melts within the realization of oneself and responsibility takes place.
We don’t need to learn Love, each of us is having much enough by “himself” if left in peace. We need space for developing our natural freedom.
Bilderberger – would that be a subsidiary of Burger King, perhaps, Preetam? Sounds pretty serious if that lot are involved….
Hmm … perhaps it is not by accident that all threads conclude with silly comments.
Vartan
Indeed, Vartan…I suspect the Illuminati’s hand in this…most disquieting….
I just love Bilderberger ice cream…especially ‘Thallium Truffle’…that metallic flavour stays with you for days.
Mmm…thallium truffle with melted valium sauce, lithium syrup and a big wodge of whipped cream…
a knickerbocker glory to knock you out of your knickers…
Do you want a flake with that…?
Frank says:
“Do you want a flake with that…?”
What, do you think I am shapeshifter?
Vartan
Preetam asks, ‘Who cares about Illuminati and world domination?’ Ehm…er…not me. Why are you asking?
Mind you, sannyasnews is definitely under serious threat from the ill-looninati.
Frank, it is taking a risk just to mention the Ill-looninati. I wouldn’t be surprised if they put a Fatwah on you. Lock your door and windows at night, and above all don’t talk to strangers in the street who want to talk about energy. If you get a note under the door that ends Love,,,You know you are in non-serious trouble.
Well, I’m not asking, just sharing some historical incident from my standpoint. I have no question to ask. I never use the word Illuminati, it is too vexing…I say Pirates and Muggers dominant, because more would be too much respect for those lower interests of gatherer and hunter scene.
Just for making my standpoint clear: “Idiots live off the lie, walk on red carpets and get Nobel Prizes!”
The Americans are smart people. Osho, unlike Castro, for example, was completely within the Government’s power. Presumably they gave him a low dose of thallium along with at least one other poison for two reasons :
1. The symptoms would not correspond with those in most text books because the symptoms in most text books would be based on higher doses.
2. So he would not die soon, but instead die a few years later. This would look less suspicious.
There is also the problem for those who deny the thallium explanation that none of the people close to Osho have ever denied it.
Osho himself said he was poisoned about ’86 or 87. This has been endorsed/not denied by Amrito, Devageet, Shunyo, Anando, Abirvaba, Neelam, Keerti, Kavisha, the dental nurses, etcetera. So if you deny the thallium/ other poison explanation, you must explain how this conspiracy to tell this untruth came about. Now if people are telling untruths there are two possibilities. Either they are knowingly lying, or they have been deceived into believing and telling an untruth. So there are many possibilities.
Here are a few
1. Osho knowingly lied and everyone else was deceived.
2. Amrito knowingly lied and everyone else, including Osho, was deceived into believing and telling an untruth.
3. Amrito, Devageet and the dental nurses knowingly lied and everyone else, including Osho, was deceived into believing and telling an untruth.
4. Osho, Amrito, Devageet and the dental nurses knowingly lied and everyone else was deceived into believing and telling an untruth.
5. Everyone, including Osho, knowingly lied and was in on the conspiracy.
Well, I think (5) is unlikely because after more than two decades someone would have broken ranks.
I also think 1, 2, 3 and 4 are unlikely because the people involved were smart people and at least one would have realised they had been told a porkie.
So I think the consistency of so many people who were there telling the same story is quite good evidence.
AJ declares, ‘The Americans are smart people.’ I believe a lot of non-Americans might disagree with that. If the Americans did indeed poison Osho I would hardly describe that as ‘smart’.
AJ concludes, ‘So I think the consistency of so many people who were there telling the same story is quite good evidence.’
One could apply that to Osho’s enlightenment also, yet that does not mean it was true, because one cannot recognize enlightenment unless one is actually enlightened. Yet so many speak of Osho’s enlightenment as a given.
Jimmy Saville was a much loved and respected member of British society, who was noted for his fundraising and support of various charities and hospitals. He was widely described as a philanthropist and was honoured for his efforts. He was awarded the OBE in 1971 and was knighted in 1990. He was also a sex offender.
AJ, the arguments you set forth are full of holes.
Classic criminology says
a murderer needs
1. motive
2. means
3. opportunity.
Frank Columbo woulda nailed it in no time…
“Just one more thing, Miss Silverman….”
AlokJ is another of the many who love conspiracies…it gives meaning to their lives, for just having their guru die of natural causes or a heart attack is just plain boring. For their time and efforts, whether wasted or not, need to be justified somehow, so why not just prop up the guy, make him larger than life, throw in an outlandish method of dying (proposed by the guru himself and joyfully accepted by his flock), and…instant martyr.
Alok, if you can’t find any facts to support Osho’s theory of his own poisoning, don’t waste my time… Still looking for facts? Still looking…Look till you drop.
Babasvetlana says:
“So why not just prop up the guy, make him larger than life?”
The way I understand it, this is what the Indians and all the messages coming from the Resort are attempting to do. I like to think that ‘we’ are a tad deeper than that. I’ve just been reading Paula O’Brien’s 2008, ‘The Rajneesh sannyasin community in Fremantle’ which offers a terrific analysis. Sorry for the long quote but I feel it’s worth it:
“As a charismatic figure, one could describe Osho’s allure as being based around ideas that were specifically postmodern – contradiction and paradox. He seemed to embody the tension between polar extremities, being neither this nor that, and exhibiting rather a sense of “both…and…and”.
***
It goes without saying that the primary force in contemporary existence is the unobstructed flow of capital. During the sixties and seventies, shifts occurred in the way capitalism could work. As the world opened up globally, in order for capitalism He was an “enlightened mystic” and a “clever charlatan”, an “anarchist” and a “madman”, a “spiritual terrorist” and a “cynical businessman” – all yet none of these. Perhaps, in the spirit of the global shifts of his time, one could say that Osho was neither an “enlightened mystic” nor a “charlatan”, but both. From the perspective of contemporary existence, one could say that such personages exist all around us.
***
The movement appears to be totally “manufactured” in the sense that beliefs, practices, corporate identities, and physical location may be changed quickly to suit necessities and convenience of the moment. Just as sannyasins are urged to live in the “here and now,” their social systems and legal identities are very impermanent. Furthermore, it was a function that also defined the movement as a whole.”
The “both…and…and” principle reminds me of Austin Osman Spare’s “Neither-Neither” but Veeresh’s “Also” is probably the best description. Osho was vast. He encompassed totality. Would you have wanted him any different?
Vartan
Vartan,
Thanks for this reference. I downloaded the thesis on the Fremantle scene. Interesting.
Just is case we forget, we are talking about the same people who killed their own president and got away with it. Beloved sannyasins, YOU WILL NEVER FIND OUT THE TRUTH. Get over it.
Vartan
Hey, Bucko, which president are you talking about? You Europeans aren’t angels btw. Try Francisco Franco for starters, how about those Greeks? And a bloke named Hitler…Former Yugoslavians and their religious war back in the 1990′s…we had to bale your lame Euro asses out…Too chicken to intervene…those Dutch soldiers idly standing by while thousands of Bosnians were murdered…Yeah, I’ll take American “imperialism” any day, any time. If you ain’t Dutch, you ain’t much…Well, the Dutch ain’t much.
Gee whiz! Baba is a nationalist. How come I’m not surprised?
Are you really that identified with your particular collective’s madness, babasv? You sound like any old ‘good ol’ boy’ redneck….
Yo, Babasvetlana,
I giss yr daddyo mus`ve called you that name cuz he knew you`d have to get tough or die, jus’ like Johnny Cash’s` “Boy named Sue”..?
Well, boy, I heard you rode into a little trouble down there in the boondocks with them there long-haired beardo pinko commie nigga an` women-lovin lily-bellied pakistinian towel-head terrorists havin’ themselves a satanic gorilla love-in on yo land….
You sho` did real good when you done gone whupped an` busted their sorry asses all to hell for old Uncle Sam an` Jesus…
Yes, siree….
You guys need to stop playing your “I”m a free Spirit” games…yeah you…imagine there’s no country, John Lennon bullshit lyrics…Lokesh spends most of his time bragging, in subtle ways , about his Scottish heritage…you and Frank sending love notes to each other in Gaelic or whatever form of primitive head- banging you call it.
SD, your nationalistic trash is buried in these pages, not to hard to find.
Even flying under the banner of Osho and sannyas is a form of nationalism…
Just more denial going on.
babasv:
“SD, your nationalistic trash is buried in these pages, not to hard to find.”
SD:
I suggest you look for, then provide suitable evidence, babasv, before you spout such bullshine.
(Btw, is there anything within your orbit that doesn’t enrage you? Just curious…).
As our resident psychic and local Nostradamus, I will offer a free reading as a medical intuitive to Baba Sweatloona.
In his previous life, he was an entity who inhabited the lower astral and went by the name of Prem Bubbie. He suffered rejection at the hands of religious extremists and as a result, in this life, he seems to have had his sense of humour surgically removed.
He is in constant pain…this is due to a violently inflamed liver…continuous outbursts of anger at having wasted his life appear to be completely justified.
Also suffering from severe arthritis in both wrists caused by…er…extreme obsessive repetitive strain syndrome.
Prognosis?
More of the same, for sure….
Frank, thanks for the Baba reading. It helps me feel compassion for the poor wee sowel.
Ah, Scotland, where I enjoy the title of ‘Clan Chief’. Such a bonnie land. Makes one wonder why I left 42 years ago, never to returnuth. ‘Tis a sad story, not unlike the biblical prodigal son, except this one will no’ be comin’ hame. Viva España!
Whoever this Prem Bubbie is, I’d like to meet him/her. The lower astral plane is your full-time occupation, Frank, just know how to conceal it with $100 euro note words…almost fooled me….
$100 a word?
I wish.
Vartan, you say…
“You will never find the truth, get over it.”
That’s what Jimmy Saville hoped.
And as regards this article about the freemental scene…there`s nothing worse than Australians trying to sound all clever and postmodern.
They should stick to pigging, sheep-shagging and rugby league…
They`re good at that….
Poisoning Methods by Covert Agencies Questioned. (From OshoNews. Article appeared in a daily in Malaysia, where also Osho’s poisoning is mentioned.)
http://www.oshonews.com/2012/07/poisoning-methods-by-covert-agencies-questioned/
I like the tone of the article. Just goes to show, a lie repeated often enough may eventually become the truth.
Vartan
So you must also mean what Osho’s been saying are lies, repeated enough to become truths. Kinda sounds what Sheela did all during her tenure as secretary and generalissimo of the Ranch…You need to clarify your statement, Vartan.
Babasvetlana says:
“So you must also mean what Osho’s been saying are lies, repeated enough to become truths. Kinda sounds what Sheela did all during her tenure as secretary and generalissimo of the Ranch…You need to clarify your statement, Vartan.”
I meant it in reference to the point in the Malaysian article, where the writer was absolutely convinced that Osho was poisoned with thallium. If he was poisoned, it wasn’t by thallium or radioactivity…this doesn’t mean something else wasn’t used, but none of the evidence points to those two substances.
Osho, for his age, was not a fit man. He used to dictate all those active meditations (essentially physical exercises) for us, but he never did any himself. From the Ranch days I felt him delicate, lonely and bored. The incessant movie-watching and drug-taking more or less prove it. More often than not, he was biting more than he could chew, which might have been fun for us, but it was taking its toll on him. Anyway, none of it really matters, unless we want to play politics.
By the way, Osho never lied. He misspoke. And misjoked.
Vartan
Osho told cast-iron whoppers as a hobby. I was just listening to an old interview with him talking about how bored he was with his 90 Rollers. He was making out like the cars were unwanted gifts from his sannyasins. And then he went on to conclude, ‘And now they want that I have 365 Rolls Royces.’ Absolute cobblers, of course.
“People close to Osho” were pretty much in on the “thallium poisoning” charade. What haven’t you learned from the whole Rajneeshpuram debacle? Or Poona? Or have you conveniently forgotten that those in power used and abused the rest of the community? Lying, cheating, stealing, manipulating? Yes, even regarding Osho’s self-assertion that he was poisoned with thallium, and the fraud was further advanced by the higher- ups. Why is it so difficult to accept that? Naive or denial or both, take your pick.
Just gone through all the comments while waiting for the flight at Delhi Airport, wisdom writers Seem to be like those fishermen on Goa Beach who One sees every day on the Same Spot in the Same underwear every day.
I mention that snews is under imminent threat from the
ill-looninate…and within two hours Shree Shantam checks in and starts talking about his chuddies!
I reckon that puts me about up there with Nostradamus on the prophecy front….
Ah, Frank, have you heard Doctor Alibi by Lemmy and Slash?
‘I went to see a shaman
He said you’ll be alright
Just keep doin’ what you love
Every single night.’
Sound advice, indeed.
Long live shameless shamans.
Few people say Osho is everywhere…Maybe just like Orkut!
RrreoowwWW…More of a pussy riot than a wikileaks, this post.
Ai weiwei, what cunning stunts…
Breaking Wind’s initiation ceremony was mastery of the tongue twister…
“Shameless Shamans sitting ‘n shitting in satsang”.