Osho and the Tibetan Lama

This is an old story, but one much contested.  SN cant see why anyone would have invented this. Many however consider it to be a fantasy.  What comments are forthcoming.

An interview with the Tibetan Lama, His Holiness Lama Karmapa  by Ma Prem Jeevan

In 1972, Swami Govind Siddharth visited the Monastery of the Tibetan Lama, His Holiness Lama Karmapa in Darjeeling. When he arrived, accompanied by his wife and two young daughters, the monastery was completely closed. He told, in an interview, of his disappointment at not meeting the Karmapa. Then all of a sudden, one lama came out to tell him that he was immediately wanted inside by His Holiness. He went in and was greeted by him as if he was expected there. His Holiness never even knew anything about him beforehand, as he had never made any appointment… he never knew anything about him except that he was in sannyasin’s dress. About His Holiness, he is said to be a ‘Divine Incarnation’. In Tibet, they believe that whosoever attains to buddhahood, to enlightenment, if by their own wishes they are born again to help people in the world, then they are divine incarnations — bodhisatvas. His Holiness is said to be the sixteenth incarnation of Dsum Khyenpa, the first Karmapa, who was born about 1110 AD. He is descended from the chain of master going back to Marpa, one of Tibet’s great yogis.

When Swami Siddharth first entered, the Karmapa immediately told him that he knew where he was coming from. He said, “I am seeing that you have somewhere some photograph or something which is printed on two sides, of your master.” Swami Siddharth answered that he had nothing like that which is printed on two sides. He had completely forgotten about the locket hanging from his mala of Osho’s photograph on both sides! There was an English woman who was acting as an interpreter since the Lama Karmapa does not know English. She immediately saw his mala and said, “What is this?” He then remembered that the locket was printed on two sides and he said, “This is the photograph of my master.” She was curious to see it, so Siddharth took it off and showed it to her. Immediately, His Holiness said, “That is it.”

He took the locket of Osho in his hand and he touched it to his forehead and then said: He is the greatest incarnation since Buddha in India — he is a living Buddha!” His Holiness went on to say, “You may be feeling that he is speaking for you, but it is not only for you that he speaks. Osho speaks for the Akashic records also, the records of events and words recorded on the astral planes. Whatever is spoken is not forgotten. That is why you will find that he goes on repeating things and you will feel that he is doing this for you, but as a matter of fact, he speaks only for a few people. Only a few people realize who Osho is. His words will remain there in Akashic records, so that they will also be helpful to people of the future.”

His Holiness went on to say that Osho was with them in past lives. “If you want to see one of Osho’s previous incarnations — who he was in Tibet — you can go to Tibet and see his golden statue there which is preserved in the Hall of Incarnations.”

He went on to say that about Osho and his work, “My blessings are always there, and I know that whatever we are not going to be able to do to help others, Osho will do.” The main aim of the lamas in coming to India was to preserve their occult sciences. Osho also confirmed this in his Kashmir lectures given in 1969. The Dalai Lama has not escaped only to save himself, but to save the Tibetan religion, the meditation secrets and the occult sciences. “We have gotten these things from India in the past, and now we want to return them back. Now we have come to know that here is an incarnation, Osho, who is doing our job in India and the world and we are very happy about it. The world will know him, but only a few people will realize what he actually is. He will be the only person who can guide properly, who can be a World Teacher in this age, and he had taken birth only for this purpose.”

The 16th Gyalwa Karmapa was the head of the Kagyu or “Black Hat” school of Tibetan Buddhism.  For more information on the 16th Karmapa, his reincarnation Ogyen Trinley Dorje and the Kagyu Lineage of Tibetan Buddhism visit http://www.kagyuoffice.org or the official site of the Dharma Chakra Center of Rumtek Monestary http://www.rumtek.org/


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46 Responses to Osho and the Tibetan Lama

  1. frank says:

    The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  2. i see that Jeevan quotes the lama with using the name “osho”… this is not correct… the golden rule is when you quote someone, then use the exact words said by the person; since the lama didn’t say “osho”, those quotes are deceiving… so what if he said Bhagwan, is Jeevan so uptight and neurotic to not to print it? I have serious doubts this story is authentic, given this fact. if you can’t bother to print bhagwan, then what else is incorrect?

  3. Lokesh says:

    ‘Belief and doubt are two aspects of the same coin.’ I heard Osho(Bhagwan for JC) say that many times and he was right.
    If you want to believe something you gather positive info, like this piece of tittle tattle. I mean to say if the Karmapa knew who Bhagwan was why didn’t he just come out with it and say who he was instead of referring to some nameless statue in the hall of reincarnation. It sounds like a line right out of a Lobsang Rampa book. If you want to doubt something then you gather negative info, maybe try what his holiness the fucking pope thinks about Osho.
    Yes, all this his holiness crap, and still even sannyasins look to these guys with his holiness in front of their names to verify who Osho was. To me this means they simply never met Osho or the question would not arise. I’m not saying Osho was or was not some super holy being. I’m saying Osho himself was dead against all that holy bullshit. Oh yeah, he would have let the Karmarpa story do the rounds, it’s still going round by the looks of things, but that was only to further his cause. The truth is the times of people with his holiness in front of his or her name is over. That is, unless everyone has his/her holiness in front of their name. Otherwise forget it. Ties in with a question Osho used to ask, ‘If Jesus was the only son of God, then who are we, bastards?’

  4. Teertha says:

    I think that Lokesh pretty much nailed the ‘issue behind the issue’, which is the need to deify Osho.

    Since a separate thread has been created about this, I’ll re-copy Lama Old Nydhal’s comments here:

    Disciples of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh…had just published a book with a few humble claims that were new to us: that Karmapa had pronounced him the greatest Bodhisattva of all time, the man to bring Buddhist Tantra to the West. Karmapa, who did not even know him, was as diplomatic as possible, but the guru’s disciples were not very pleased with his reply. Once again I could only shake my head at the enormous naiveté of people in spiritual matters. It is shocking how readily they give up both discrimination and common sense.

    Source: Lama Ole Nydahl, ‘Riding the Tiger: Twenty Years on the Road: The Risks and Joys of Bringing Tibetan Buddhism to the West’ (Nevada City: Blue Dolphin Publishing, 1992), p. 127.

    In fact, one can ask why Karmapa would have said that Osho’s golden statue can be seen in the hall of incarnations. Where exactly, and which statue? If Karmapa did not specify this, what was the point of saying what he did?

    Even more, how can an enlightened being be captured by a statue? Who would it be a statue of? A preserved dead shell?

    As for this bit here:

    “The 16th Gyalwa Karmapa was the head of the Kagyu or “Black Hat” school of Tibetan Buddhism. For more information on the 16th Karmapa, his reincarnation Ogyen Trinley Dorje and the Kagyu Lineage of Tibetan Buddhism visit http://www.kagyuoffice.org or the official site of the Dharma Chakra Center of Rumtek Monestary http://www.rumtek.org/

    This overlooks the fact that there is not one current Karmapa, but two who have claimed the position. The drama behind it is fascinating and can be read about here:


  5. Teertha says:

    I was stunned to find this image in the secret archives website of the Tikse monastery Hall of Incarnations. Remarkable resemblance.

    • Lokesh says:

      That is not Osho. It is Buddha ZZ top…the avatar of rock and roll. Osho styled himself on ZZ, knowing well that every girl is crazy about a sharp-dressed man.

    • frank says:

      thanks teertha,thats really swung it for me.
      osho is definitely the messiah i have been waiting for…
      and now thankfully i can go to his feet in the knowledge that some very important and holy people have sanctioned me…
      what a relief!
      jai lobsang…..
      (that`s the name of tintin`s dog in the tibetan translation of “tintin in tibet”)

    • alokjohn says:

      You are trying it on, Teertha?

    • martyn says:

      It is said that reciting the holy scriptures over and over again until the brain has the consistency of porridge, will bring innumerable blessings,
      so on that basis I have re-read all the material above many times in my red velvet decorated Tibetan shrine room to the tune of Abba’s ‘Waterloo’ ‘intoned on one note…
      not only have I thus managed to get through to the lama, but he says Woburn wild animal kingdom is open for Christmas, except that this year the Camel has got the hump and will not be appearing in the family show. I might not have got the right lama though.. which as you know can happen very easily when astral travelling .

      Sometimes being so spiritual helps me to help others along the way….

      PS Shantam is back….and is currently playing the role of Gonzo in the Muppets. Book now.

    • Nobody and i mean nobody in Tibet, has a mug like Osho’s.. even back 700 years ago… sounds phony to me… not that it isn’t a nice statue, it was probably crafted sometime time recently… more proof please.. we aren’t fools you know.

    • alokjohn says:

      if you look carefully at the photo, there is a url at the top, but I cannot decipher it

  6. shantam says:

    When one takes the past life theory a bit seriously, Osho too must be having many past lives. One can see a deep bonding of Him with Buddhist traditions and also many other eastern school of mysticism.
    Some where i have read as for how many lives he was wandering as a seeker, coming very close to truth and again sliping away etc. etc. Finally reaching home in this life on one fine spring day of March 21st. at the age of 21.
    But one thing which strikes me the most is that he has never mentioned a single life in the west. And the results are quite visible, as he has no deeper roots in the west other then some bookish knowledge, his work has also not taken wings in the west, though due to the wheels of life, few disillusioned westners embraced His sannyas and now these people in their last leg of life are also thinking was it not a need of a tender age to have sugar Daddy!

  7. Lokesh says:

    The Buddha said, “Oh, Bhikshu, every moment you are born, decay, and die.” He meant that, every moment, the illusion of “me” renews itself. Not only is nothing carried over from one life to the next; nothing is carried over from one moment to the next.

  8. Lokesh says:

    Osho says, very wisely, ‘Hindus believe in God and the soul. Jainas don’t believe in God at all but only in the soul. And Buddhists don’t believe in the soul or God either. But about reincarnation all three agree — even Buddhists agree, who don’t believe in the soul. A very strange thing…then who reincarnates? Even THEY could not deny the phenomenon of reincarnation, although they could deny the existence of the soul; they say the soul does not exist but reincarnation exists.’

  9. shantam says:

    When there is more smoke, more ashes then the fire; differences in the outlook apart, i must convey my deep love and respect for Lokesh for his sharings about Osho. We at sannyas news cacnot create some kind of volcanic fire but aleast some fire to keep the atmosphare warm.
    I wonder where are those thousands of sannnyasins rolling at Osho’s feet till his last breath and giving the impression, ” Osho you are the master of the masters and we your people from around the world have come..”
    Surely blame of alinating His people lies on the mismanagement by those who would have taken the line of being investment banker without Osho around.

    PS_in a week’s time, Osho’s 80th arrival day on the earth is here.

  10. shantam says:

    Submitted by Shantam

  11. Arpana says:

    This has a lot to do with the mystique of everything to do with those days, the mystique in the seventies of anything to do with the east.
    We’ve all got older, if not grown up. We’ve either grown up so the mystique has faded, diminished, or not grown up and got jaded.

    Would have meant something to me thirty years ago, but not now; and I’m not going to beat myself up for being so enthralled by such things thirty odd years ago, when I was so much younger.

    Still a subtle mystique connected to Osho for me, but not to meditation, or sannyassins; and their was.

  12. Karima says:

    Osho,never born, never died, like it is the case with all of us. So who are we talking about? Ghosts and memories of the past,which have long gone: if…… you don’t start up the computer and start dreaming again! Correction, i started the computer and started dreaming again! It’s so tempting to rummage in the past.

  13. martyn says:

    Karima thats very re-assuring….i shall close the computer forever now and go to my caring sharing commune of mutual assistance hippie-like loving sannyasins who pool all their resources for the mutual benefit of every individual member without distinction or preference…and who collectively have the benefit of hundreds of thousands of hours of therapy and meditation that makes their every breath silken and as exciting as the tongue tip taste of tangy, lively sherbet…..
    woops .. i thought i had the address here somewhere….must be somewhere here…

    i often use the never born stuff when dealing with everyday living… like ‘ if thats my ex on the phone tell her that i’m not really here’ ,or ‘you can’t hurt me cos i don’t exist go so ahead humiliate me in a paid for weekend sex therapy group’…and if i can’t do any of those and my tooth still hurts I ask the dentist for extra anaesthetic to kill the pain.
    Karima, going within is for people who can’t go out and enjoy their personalities because they just don’t have one that works. and for giving instructions on a microphone by some amateur therapriest in a bathgown.
    You are always within and/or without without even bothering to try any remedy…and as aware of never having been born as scientists are of likely life on another planet…
    its reassuring …but doesnt really help.. unless you have fairies as friends…

  14. shantam says:

    Just from the wordings of the comments one can judge quite accurately whether the person is from India or from far away west. For example above comment writer Arpana and Karima.
    I wonder what these two ladies will do when the family, friends and strangers around them will celebrate Christmas, birthday of a man who one is not even sure whether was real or a fiction.
    Ask any psychologist if you don’t have ghosts and angels from the past, you you have only some bloody group leader, who will help you to free from Dad and Mom. No wonder, most of the sannyasins in the west are finding solace in the family constalation groups.

  15. shantam says:

    Any way to use this wording, ” Never born never died” is quite a catchy slogan coined by some marketing expert. MAy be the family of that person has helped in the past to create similar pharase, ” Jesus mother is Virgin Marry.”
    I wonder why we feel shy to say that mom and dad of every great man got their child as a lottery otherwise they were making love like everyone else.
    Invest some harmones and get a master, What a Jackpot!!

  16. Parmartha says:

    There seem to be divided views on this topic. But no one has mentioned the report from Siddharth was from 1972…. an awful long time ago, and when as Arpana indicates western hippies were a bit in awe of the esoteric mysteries of the east.
    Nearly 40 years later both east and west seem somewhat less esoteric. Contrary to what Shantam says I have met many Indians who dont give a toss about reincarnation and consider it part of a moribund Hindu belief system.
    Osho needs no references. Those who lived around him and with him during his ministry are the best references if any are needed.
    I see in other blogs Shantam self styles himself as part of the self appointed new “Circle” of 21 who will administer the temporal affairs of the organisation around Osho. Clearly this is an obsession for him – what is, is. Somehow if you want to use the words Osho’s “work”, it is getting done, and even in remote places like Sannyas News!

    • Arpana says:

      The individuals who see themselves as better placed to run the ashram show no indication of any awareness that they will be judged as harshly as the present circle, if they ever get their own way. None what so ever.

    • you make a good point, P. even the king of Bhutan naively as it may have been, opened Bhutan to the outside world, thinking that it would help his people to get out of poverty and get educated… i don’t think his move helped at all, maybe it increased the tourism but definitely made Bhutan a more wanting of a country- wanting all the garbage gizmos that the rest of us have, and continually want to “upgrade”- you know, the “keeping up with the Jones” mentality, a truly Western head trip and a disastrous one at that, something the king, while he was getting educated in england, forgot to notice. Osho spoke several times regarding this tendency, yet he encouraged sannyasins to “keep up with the times”, like fashion, et.al. Maybe he was on one of his nitrous rides when he said it, can’t explain it otherwise. Going from a rustic farming and herding life to a fast paced techno driven consumer life.. well, i’ll take the former, we’re slaves to the system, better to work hard on the land than to have a corporation work you into the land.

    • Parmartha- i noticed you removed shantam’s video and mug shot the other day.. now it’s back, can you kindly remove it again!! Otherwise, he’s just spoiling for insults and this blog will be full – head to toe, of cruel , and mean spirited comments, mostly from me.

    • old saying- “you repeat a lie over and over again, and soon you start to believe it to be the truth”…. yes, Shantam, I mean you.

    • Teertha says:

      Govind Siddarth’s story has become part of apocryphal legend, you might say. But far more interesting is to actually read some of the accounts of the 16th Karmapa’s life. He was a very interesting guy. He is also one of the few documented cases of a ‘mystic’ dying in such a way that something happened to his body that modern science has no good explanation for — in Karmapa’s case, it was the area around his heart remaining warm in a ‘medically impossible’ fashion for several days after death. Nydahl provides references for this in ‘Riding The Tiger’.

      At any rate, there is photo evidence that Dalai Lama once paid direct respects to Osho — during, if you can believe it, a Rajneeshpuram drive by. Check out the figure leaning in to the driver’s side:

      It’s my understanding that this visit resulted in some 20 of the 93 Rolls being shipped to Dharamsala after 1986 — DL really like the Silver Spur — but they ended up in Llasa, in effect stolen by the Chinese:

  17. shantam says:

    It must be one of these days in 1989, when Nirvano, Osho´s long time companion left her body or was forced by the circumstances to leave the body.
    I cannot remember accurately whether that particular evening also, Osho came to Buddha hall for the evening meditation but can rememeber for sure that Podium walk of Osho on His birthday,and thefestivity less than 72 hours after the tragic death…
    Thanks God, with Osho, i am the eye witness of few of the remarkable years around Buddha of our time and therefore to read or listen the stories of the past Buddhas simply look tasteless.
    I don´t know who is this “Pennie” wise pound foolish guy, and how he gets the idea what is lie and what is truth. Any way, we all are free to have our beliefs and pay the bill accordingly.

  18. Oinkba says:

    Just came across this today..Govind Siddharth`s full description of his visit to the Lama… http://www.oshonews.com/2011/12/16th-karmapa-siddharth-osho/

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