In his recent book, “In Wonder with Osho” (June, 2017) Arun makes a possibly interesting claim about Osho’s wishes on his death. (Page 164).
He says that in the fifth lecture of the series “And the Flowers Showered” Osho gave a clear instruction about what to do in the event of his death.
It is claimed by Arun, that Osho said his body should be preserved after his death, “dont bury it, or burn it”. Again according to Arun, Osho also said the rather esoteric statement that his “death would take 500 years” . Not sure myself what this would mean, practically perhaps, some embalming or something else would be necessary?
I dont have this book, and so it would be good if some blogger here, were to check the text of chapter five. It would also be good to check the publication date, as because this was an early(1974) lecture series, there may be a first edition that would be more faithful to what Osho said, and suffer less edits/deletions.
Of course it would also be good to know of any other instructions that Osho gave anywhere in his talks/darshans, etc. ….. in many disputes over the years where people have used the words, “Osho said”, I have later found he said the opposite, and equally eloquently and persuasively !
Parmartha
Arun is trying to make rules, commandments out of Osho’s words, and imo that is the last thing Osho would have wanted.
Anyway, here is chapter 5 of ‘And The Flowers Showered’.
http://www.wikifortio.com/825199/Ch. 5. And the Flowers showered.pdf
Thanks very much for the pdf, Arpana.
I wonder, if there is a recent edition of this book, whether that section has been deleted?!
I’m pretty certain that’s the original, because the source is from about 1990, as far as I know.
Yes, it’s the original.
I have the First Edition at home – Copyright 1975 by Rajneesh Foundation.
Foreword is from Somendra (Michael Barnett):
“My own experience after reading many Bhagwan books and listening to a couple of hundred of his discourses is that, as if in some gigantic crazy mathematical equation, everything eventually cancels everything else out; but what is left (in you) is not nothing but something beyond words, the beginnings of the awakening of your inner being.”
Thanx, Arps, for sharing, I enjoyed reading as well as listening to the whole discourse at the same time, couple of minutes ago.
Parmartha, that part is there:
“When I am dead, don’t bury my body, don’t burn it, because I will be involved in you, many of you. And if you can feel, then a sage remains alive for many years, sometimes thousands of years – because life is not only of the body. Life is an energy phenomenon. It depends on the involvement, on how many persons he was involved in. And a person like Buddha is not only involved with persons, he is involved even with
trees, birds, animals; his involvement is so deep that if he dies his death will take at least five hundred years.
Buddha is reported to have said, “My religion will be a live force for only five hundred years.” And the meaning is here, because he will be a live force for five hundred years. It will take five hundred years for
him to get out of the involvement totally.
When death happens, be silent. Watch!”
Thanks, Kavita, Sachit and Arps.
I was interested if the book has been republished, or sections of it within compilations, since say 2000, whether it still contained the original.
I imagine the ‘authorities’ might find some difficulties with the original text about not burning or burying.
This comment said it all, seems to me:
Swami Anand Anubodh says:
20 September, 2017 at 7:47 pm
One thing is clear from the circumstances of Osho´s life, “All is well that ends well” was not the state of affairs.
I suggest that applies to the circumstances of your life, Shantam, rather than Osho’s.
It’s ok to have opinions and share it in any format but to have any kind of such claim is hilarious now!
A Master whose only consistency was about being in the present – wonder if he would be bothered about what he said in 1974/any time before that moment.
“Again according to Arun, Osho also said the rather esoteric statement that his “death would take 500 years” “.
Perhaps this might mean the time it would take for the ‘living influence’ of his body ie the influence of his ‘enlightened vibrations’ (for want of a better term) on his body to wear away, as it were? If so, it would indicate how deeply his whole body/mind being had been transformed.
Might have just been more ‘Osho hype’ of course, calculated to impress the new disciples (which almost everyone there at the time was).
I think before the collapse of Rajneeshpuram much esoteric stuff was in the air. I remember sannyasin friend in my home town telling some Osho proclamation in a similar fashion: “My sannyasins will have maximum three lives.”
One gets the impression those who are in Buddhafield & meditating are in the last life stage. Those who visit from time to time and meditate will get two more births and the rest will taste salvation in maximum three life and birth rounds.
Surely, me as a 22, 23 year-old was feeling immense gratitude to get jackpot called Sannyas so young.
“Surely, me as a 22, 23 year-old was feeling immense gratitude to get jackpot called Sannyas so young.”
As if, just by calling yourself a sannyasin and hanging around an ashram you’d got “jackpot”?
When did the reality sink in then, that much internal work had to be done, that one actually has to ‘earn’ any such “jackpot”? Or do you think the ashram powers-that-be have snatched it from you? Perhaps you’ve simply squandered it?
Teachers kind have no sense of humour. No understanding that with wisdom one gets capability to joke on one´s own self.
SD, being a rolling stone, has gathered much dust but no essence.
As I remember once hearing from Osho similar like, “Sense of humour is a very spiritual quality.” To see irony in one´s own life needs much courage as well as humility. This quality is missing in Brahmin types.
But why haven’t you indicated the exact points in your posts that are supposed to be suffused with “wisdom”, soaked in “irony”, Shantam? Otherwise, I doubt that anyone would actually realise your noble intentions.
However, as well as being an utterly exasperating pain in the neck you are also unconsciously, unintentionally funny, which for me is your saving grace here.
“Again according to Arun, Osho also said the rather esoteric statement that his “death would take 500 years” “.
Like the hype, “After 2500 years a Buddha is born”!
Osho was all for a non-serious approach to life. Surprising, taking that into consideration, how many people took much of what he said seriously.
What difference does Arun’s article make to your life? Unless you are completely stupid the answer must be, ‘No difference at all’.
To me, Arun is not a particularly interesting fellow. There is something that smells of moth-balls about his whole number. As for what Osho says about his death…give the man a break. He was human and all humans entertain ideas for a time, get enthusiastic and then often abandon them somewhere further on up the road. Osho did that a lot. I liked that about him.
Was reading an interesting book the other night. One thing that was pointed out about so-called enlightened gurus from India is that were most of them to be placed in a solid relationship, a job, a couple of kids, a car in city traffic, bills, a loan from the bank to pay off and in general circumstances what passes for normal life they simply could not handle it. Meanwhile, most of you lot somehow seem to be managing it.
Instead, the apparently wise guys hoodwink people with mumbo-jumbo about how death will take 500 years. What a lot of shite. Does not exactly tie in with the way of the white cloud now, does it?
Would-be enlightened ones, like Arun, love this sort of crap that somehow makes them look like they are in the know. deeply immersed in life’s supreme mysteries and mystic mud-holes. If you ask me the guy knows fuck all. Watched a few vids of him initiating people into the practice of what appears to be enshitenment.
This quality of Sagittarius people I love the most, their love for raw truth.
In an Aquarius Age I presume masters who are comfortable in their skin feel thrill to see disciples taking their words with bit of salt and giving them their human fraternities. Lokesh does this job wonderfully.
Shantam, I returned to my laptop with the idea in mind to delete my comment. After all, who am I? And it sounds a bit in your face. And then I see your comment and the Ed’s efforts to tidy up my punctuation and I think I should not waste other people’s time and selfless work. Thank you.
Shantam.
You can suck up to Lokesh for eternity, but he will never support your agenda; he will never help you take over the running of the Ashram. Your cheap attempts at manipulation are nauseating.
One of my Xs told my newie, “Watch out for him, he is an ace manipulator.” I wish I had known about that when I gave her half of everything I owned when we said ta ta.
Anyway, Arpana, you are correct, I find Shantam’s obsession with regime change in The Resort absurd.
I am not sure why Shantam wants to waste his time on such a futile crusade. But, really, it is none of my business. Some folk just become caught up in things and it snowballs. None of it has anything to do with Osho, that is for sure. Except perhaps to say that he kept the door open for almost everyone and plenty of nutters skipped in with the crowds.
Come to think of it, back in the day, I was pretty crazy myself. Now I am an old brujo, content to let the world drift by like a puff of smoke from my ancient ceremonial pipe, passed down from generation to generation in Clan Macloko.
As with every short Osho quote floating on the internet, it is important to read the full context in which that excerpt was said.
Taking Osho’s words out of context gives them a different meaning.
“You have to be silent. If you can be silent when death is there you will suddenly see many things, because death is not just a person stopping breathing. Many things are happening. When a person dies, his aura starts subsiding. If you are silent you can feel it — an energy force, a vital energy field, subsiding, getting back to the center.
When a child is born just the opposite happens. When a child is born an aura starts spreading; it starts near the navel. Just as when you throw a pebble in a lake, ripples start — they go on spreading, go on spreading — when a child is born breath is like a pebble in the lake; when the child breathes the navel center is hit. The first pebble has been thrown in the silent lake, and the ripples go on spreading.
Your whole life you go on spreading. Nearabout the age of thirty-five your aura is completed, at its peak. Then it starts subsiding. When a person dies it goes back to the navel. When it reaches the navel, it becomes a concentrated energy, a concentrated light. If you are silent you can feel it, you will feel a pull. If you sit near a dead man you will feel as if a subtle breeze is blowing towards the dead man and you are being pulled. The dead man is contracting his whole life, the whole field that he was.
Many things start happening around a dead man. If he loved a person very deeply, that means he had given a part of his life energy to that person, and when a person dies, immediately that part that he had given to another person leaves that person and moves to the dead man. If you die here and your lover lives in Hong Kong, something will leave your lover immediately — because you have given a part of your life and that part will come back to you. That’s why when a loved one dies you feel that something has left you also, something in you has died also. A deep wound, a deep gap will exist now.
Whenever a lover dies, something in the beloved also dies, because they were deeply involved with each other. And if you have loved many, many people — for example, if a person like Dogo dies, or a buddha — from all over the universe energy moves back to the center. It is a universal phenomenon because he is involved in many many lives, millions of lives, and from everywhere his energy will come back. The vibrations that he has given to many will leave, they will move to the original source, they will become again a concentration near the navel.
If you watch you will feel ripples coming back in a reverse order, and when they are totally concentrated in the navel, you can see a tremendous energy, a tremendous light-force. And then that center leaves the body. When a man ‘dies’, that is simply a stopping of the breath, and you think he is dead. He is not dead; that takes time. Sometimes, if the person has been involved in millions of lives, it takes many days for him to die — that’s why with sages, with saints, particularly in the East, we never burn their bodies. Only saints are not burned; otherwise everybody is burned, because others’ involvement is not so much. Within minutes the energy gathers, and they are no more part of this existence.
But with saints, the energy takes time. Sometimes it goes on and on — that’s why if you go to Shirdi, to Sai Baba’s town, you will still feel something happening, still the energy goes on coming; he is so much involved that for many people he is still alive. Sai Baba’s tomb is not dead. It is still alive. But the same thing you will not feel near many tombs — they are dead. By ‘dead’ I mean they have accumulated all their involvement, they have disappeared.
When I am dead, don’t bury my body, don’t burn it, because I will be involved in you, many of you. And if you can feel, then a sage remains alive for many years, sometimes thousands of years — because life is not only of the body. Life is an energy phenomenon. It depends on the involvement, on how many persons he was involved in. And a person like Buddha is not only involved with persons, he is involved even with trees, birds, animals; his involvement is so deep that if he dies his death will take at least five hundred years.
Buddha is reported to have said, ‘My religion will be a live force for only five hundred years.’ And the meaning is here, because he will be a live force for five hundred years. It will take five hundred years for him to get out of the involvement totally.
When death happens, be silent. Watch!
All over the world, whenever you pay respect to a dead man, you become silent, you remain silent for two minutes — without knowing why. This tradition has been continued all over the world. Why silence?
The tradition is meaningful. You may not know why, you may not be aware, and your silence may be filled with inner chattering, or you may do it just like a ritual — that is up to you. But the secret is there.”
Osho, And the Flowers Showered, Ch. 5
Fortunately, we can read Osho’s words directly, there is no need of this “Arun said that Osho said.”
Personally, I don’t see that Osho contradicted himself. Sometimes he speaks about different aspects of reality that appear contradictory to the mind – because mind is linear, and reality is in 3D.
I don’t subscribe to the “Osho contradicted himself, therefore let’s discard everything he ever said” trend.
Prem, actually I read or listen to Osho only when some book/discourse is mentioned, otherwise I don’t find the need. Of course, the context this time on SN was Arun’s but the context hardly matters to me, in fact, to me/most of us on SN, all contexts are to bring one back to oneself – isn’t it for you too?
Personally, I too don’t see any contradiction in his words; at the same time now do not take in every word he says unless I have experienced it myself.
Btw, I am a late starter at catching trends, whether it’s internet/ smartphone. I tend to use something/anything only when there is a need, otherwise they get organically discarded, I guess!
“…but he will never support your agenda; he will never help you take over the running of the Ashram.”
I feel it is unfair to criticize Shantam permanently for his idea to reform the Resort. It certainly comes from the heart.
In my opinion, church systems are always corrupt, not only in India.
But there are also always reformers who try to reform the system.
This year we have 500 years Martin Luther. Another one who reformed the system.
You are wrong. His behaviour comes from a grossly over-inflated sense of his own worth.
He’s allowed to post here. That’s enough.
“You are wrong. His behaviour comes from a grossly over-inflated sense of his own worth.”
My perspective is different. I think he suffers because things don’t move in a good manner.
Satchit,
The Pune ashram has already been reformed, it’s been reformed into the ‘Resort’.
What SP wants is to reverse the changes and try to revert it back to a time when he was there and ‘in his pomp’. For him, it’s a crusade for restoration not reformation.
SP has never met Osho, but feels that is enough for him to speak for Osho’s ‘legacy’, whereas most of his critics on SN have had significant one-to-one.
Can we all be wrong?
YES…When a singular person quotes in plural it shows his massy mind.
Sorry, beloved Anubodh, you seem like one coward hiding in Hijab who claim to have met spiritual terrorist.
Where is the grace of master´s energy to speak bravely, truthfully and without being afraid of criticism and humiliation?
SP,
I notice on the next string that Ageh Bharti says he does not take you seriously.
It’s good that you quickly responded with a silly obscure metaphor to show him he is wrong.
Martin Luther Shantam, at his keyboard, living on a diet of worms and wurst as he is threatened with being unfriended on facebook by the evil power of the papacy:
“Here I sit. I can do no other, so help me, God.”
Btw, Arun says that when Shantam leaves his body his chuddies should be embalmed and left in the Samadhi for 500 years.
Folie de grandeur.
I love it!
“I feel it is unfair to criticize Shantam permanently for his idea to reform the Resort. It certainly comes from the heart.”
An example of a common misapprehension, automatically giving value, significance to so-called ‘coming from the heart’ when more accurate would be to say, as in this case, it comes from aberrant emotions, heavily influenced as they are by Shantam’s unsatisfactory personal circumstances and, like any sort of obsessive, apparently ‘unseasoned’ by any significant degree of what might be termed ‘meditative intelligence’.
Not exactly impressive or desirable from someone who presents himself as a true interpreter of “Osho’s Vision”, is it?!
‘Coming from the heart’ is so often used to excuse a multitude of stupidities, endless misjudgments. “Oh, but he has such passion” is often an ‘apology’ for the fanatic, be his focus on ‘religion’ or football, for example.
Substituting ‘emotional’ for ‘passionate’ would be a step towards seeing this sort of stuff for what it is, and the unreliable place where its purveyors, like Shantam, are coming from.
” “I feel it is unfair to criticize Shantam permanently for his idea to reform the Resort. It certainly comes from the heart.”
An example of a common misapprehension, automatically giving value, significance to so-called ‘coming from the heart’ when more accurate would be to say, as in this case, it comes from aberrant emotions, heavily influenced as they are by Shantam’s unsatisfactory personal circumstances and, like any sort of obsessive, apparently ‘unseasoned’ by any significant degree of what might be termed ‘meditative intelligence’.”
Satyadeva, I always enjoy people who do telediagnosis.
You have a degree in psychology?
“Satyadeva, I always enjoy people who do telediagnosis. You have a degree in psychology?”
Are you sure Shantam didn’t advise you to say that, Satchit? It’s just the sort of self-defensive non-response he’s come out with many times when cornered.
P.S:
Just basic common sense and a modicum of insight is enough to see through Shantam’s self-important posturing.
It seems that Shantam needs a lover…especially some nice Punjabi woman who can make alloo paratha & Tadka Dal for him & give lots of hugs to him & wait at the door for him & make him feel loved & grateful.
Kusum, are you the Punjabi Kusum from Amritsar?!
NO.
Cool!
Yes, Satya, I admit, Shantam sits there in the corner of my room and tells me what I shall do!
Things are simple: if defence is there, then attack must also be there. Mostly one sees only half of the coin.
Things are not quite as “simple” as you imagine, Satchit. For instance, criticism is not necessarily “attack”. Although perceived as such by those emotionally threatened by anyone who disagrees with them.
For clarity, it would be useful if you could give precise details of each point you disagree with in my previous post that you designated as “telediagnosis”.
“I find Shantam’s obsession with regime change in The Resort absurd.”
Shantam finds obsession with Osho books Absurd! More holy books mind fuck is multiplied in the same proportion, has someone doubt?
Is it not a fact, speak with average human beings about what is written in Osho books, 99% will never speak with you again?
I fel it is okay that Arun has pointed this out.Though it doesn’t worry me in the way it seems to worry him!
If you dont get burned or buried…I guess you have the Lenin embalmed option – otherwise, what?
Arun and many others are annoyed that Osho was burnt, but in what they deem a hurry, and the latter is what at back they get upset about.
For me, I quietly think that Osho and euthanasia are a better match than most. He often spoke for it. But it is illegal in most nation states, including India. Hence the rush.
Suicides are very common among Indians. Lots of patients who cannot bear the physical pain, they opt for suicides. Which is bit upsetting scenario. I knew some people who had very serious spine problems who committed suicide.
I do not know about Osho though. Maybe he had had enough.
If you are Indian, Kusum, maybe you confirm or otherwise whether euthanasia is illegal in India?
Parmartha, I guess mostly when one kills oneself without anybody’s knowledge or assistance it’s called suicide. I have only mentioned suicides which I only read through news out of curiosity.
P.S:
No, Parmartha…but one of my neighbours is a lovely Indian family.
So, one way or another, Parmartha has the opinion Osho chose his own timing of death.
Euthanasia may be illegal in its legal form, spiritually it is part and parcel of Jaina way of living and dying. It is called Santhara, dying slowly by dropping food and water. Many Jain mystics chose this way.
If Osho has chosen this way I doubt it. It does not fit with its style to do something without making it as a Breaking News.
What is my main focus and interest is the utter satisfaction on Osho’s face to see His commune getting global shape.
Just day or two before the final day message was read before the packed Buddha Hall, something like ‘silencentral’ was crystal clear and Osho felt joyous to feel that his people were capable to create that magnificent silence without his physical presence.
It is really not a joke, I was simply astonished how Osho could feel that from his room as the silence was simply extraordinary.
And where is this silence now, Shantam? On all evidence, nowhere within your experience, I suspect, despite your memories – and not because the Pune you knew is no more, but because you’ve cluttered your brain with dreams of the past and anger at the present, using all that to live in hope for some possible future that’s likely to be nothing like what you recall.
If it was important for Osho not to be buried or cremated – then why was this wish not repeated more often, and especially in later years?
Did he really think that one obscure reference made many years in the past would suffice and be remembered?
To me this is just another attempt for those suffering issues to cause mischief.
Anyway, where is Osho post-demise? Has Arun ji some idea? Is there some meditative science to find out what kind of VIP treatment great enlightened people get up in the sky? Do angels come to receive such people at Soul Port?
I think with meditative imagination one can create great route planner. This will surely attract few esoterically inclined followers.
As far as Arun´s book is concerned, his target readers will surely find their great Bodhisattva trustworthy, reliable, dependable. This is quite obvious in real terms. In Sannyas business, Nepali disciples have more feel good energy around them compared to any other nation.
Arun and Rajneesh, these are two disciples creating something in real terms on an international scale and impacting their people´s life in a positive way. Surely they have the right to glorify their connection with Shri Osho Ji.
Many western disciples too are active in their “Boobs Around Heart Therapy” business where Osho meditations are used as lubricants.
I like Parmartha’s passion honouring the truth of what Osho said, comparing it with what Arun said (and not just him).
I like the easy irony that usually describes the frame of an easy prey, to confirm the belief that words are not only necessary but also sufficient to describe the true reality.
Although I (we?) know that an enlightened one may not use words or use them and contradict himself, and being this (SN) a context of words, sometimes the tendency seems to me to believe that refuting somebody’s words can refute somebody’s enlightening.
The same tendency might be with Shantam’s words on Resort management: if what SP says is false then Jayesh is a good manager.
I know Shantam, Lokesh, Arpana, Satyadeva, Amrito and of course Big P only as SN writers.
I observe the way they interact with each other, the accuracy with which they never lose the opportunity to reply to SP on the Commune/Resort topic.
I remember SP’s words, his self-satisfaction about the lovely and exclusive interaction with Lokesh (and not only him, amongst SP’s implacable and official SN critics), on other virtual sites and not (virtual).
I keep in mind the recent ‘assist’ provided by SP to “Amrito” about “hugs banned”.
If I were Jayesh I would give a medal to Shantam for the job he is doing in favour of the Foundation’s management, without forgetting who makes SP’s aporiae* shine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DilYs7scIgU
Ciao,
VF
*aporiae (plural): irresolvable internal contradictions or logical disjunctions in a text, argument, or theory, eg the celebrated aporia whereby a Cretan declares all Cretans to be liars.
Just opened a newly purchased astrology book by wonderful writer Stephen Arroyo.
The very first sentence in preface is superb. My writing style fits with that.
The quotation is by French philospher Joseph Joubert:
“It is better to stir up a question without deciding it than to decide it without stirring it up.”
Astrology is the right field where to stir up a question.
However, especially taken out of context, this statement can be used to justify not thinking through a problem, whether through incapacity or laziness. Isn’t that so, Shantam, in your experience?
Arun is just another jackal exploiting Osho, because he has not got the light of Osho. He wants to become someone by using Osho.