SannyasNews received this letter from someone called Mr Vivek Raj. It seemed to have the taste of a genuine enquiry, and also wanted, it seems, to hear some genuine responses. So we thought to put it up.
I never met Osho. In fact, I have never been to any Osho ashram, or met any Osho disciple in person.
However, I have read a few Osho books (hard-copies), read several of his numerous articles and discourses online and watched tens of videos of, and about him, and his teachings / method of meditations on Youtube and on osho.com, all during the last 12 years of my life (I am 35 years old, today is my birthday).
I have a few questions and am interested in the answers of those who comment here:
My prequel:
In nutshell, he was a great person indeed.
He said that he read, studied, grasped one hundred and fifty THOUSAND books, and that many of them he read as a teenager, which is a tremendous amount of reading in itself, perhaps at the edge of human possibility.
He says that he became enlightened on 21st March 1953, which is at a VERY tender age of 21.
He was so crystal clear on whatever he said, particularly on meditation and its methods, that what he says reaches easily and effortlessly to many people. One could say that due to him, meditation has got great attention and spread almost all over the world. That is absolutely fabulous.
Such a great man that millions of people listened and connected with him when he was alive, and, much of one’s astonishment, even more people have been connecting with him since he left this world on 19th Jan 1990
An amazing journey indeed.
—
However, I find some downsides in his life and am interested in comment.
He was it seems betrayed (by the very people whom he selected and spent many years of his life with), was detained a few times, and perhaps was a victim of poisoning.
He wanted to spread his message of meditation throughout USA and to the whole world therefrom, however, he was thrown out not only from America but also from many other countries all over the world.
I read that he was ill most of the time of his last couple of decades of his life. In fact, due to so much illness and/or poisoning perhaps, he lived only a lifespan of mere 58 years, whereas meditation is said to have such a side effect that it makes person who meditate live much more longer . I heard that all kind of illness and even poisoning can be absorbed through meditation and such ‘miracles’ are not so rare.
Moving forward, I also find many contradictions in his teaching or in whatever-he-said. Contradictions that do not appear contradictions only on upper level, but they are contradictory at the very core. I am hoping that those will come under the scope of discussions.
So what i find is he had as many and as frequent ups and downs in his life as any normal ordinary human being have in his or her lifetime despite of him (Osho) being an enlightened and meditated person which general public are not.
So my question is – if from 21 (the age when he got his self-proclaimed enlightenment) till 58 (the age he left the world), in this 37 years of time if he had so many problems, so much ups and downs, so many upheavals, then why should an average human being do or be drawn towards meditation, when he or she (an average human being) has already have such problems, upheavals, and ups and downs, in his and her life?
No ill-will towards anyone including the late Osho, just curious before clarity.
Thank you once again.
Look forward to your response.
Vivek Raj (Mr)
Before Osho and Meditation: Quantity.
After Osho and meditation: Quality.
Before Osho and meditation:The problems of living in a pond which is getting ever more stagnant.
After sannyas and Osho and meditation: The problems of living in a rushing stream, river, moving towards the ocean. Never stagnant, always fresh.
Hi Arpna!
Thank you, for your reply!
I would like to understand your point of view with a bit more clarity if at all you could oblige me.
You said :
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So does it mean that those before meditation have their problems in quantity, but after understanding and being in meditation, the problems will reduce in quantity but they will become bigger problems.
For example, before Osho, i had cough, cold, fever and bodyache probably because i had so much stress and strain as i didn’t take care of my body, mind & soul. However, after Osho, i may suffer from asthma and diabetes (which Osho suffered from in his life after his enlightenment). However, they will not matter to me since they are bodily ailments, i am just the onlooker of those ailments. Maybe i need to go to the doctor if i want my body to get rid of those ailments, or maybe i just leave it on meditation, it will take care of that, will it?
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You rightly said that one of the major difference between a pond and a river is later is flowing and the former is enclosed. However, does this difference make pond less important? Does river not have its own fair share of problems? Do fishes found in rivers more fresh, more invigorating than those found in ponds? Those water-plants found around or beneath a pond less happy than those around and beneath a river?
Thank you I will look forward to your reply.
Gibberish was first used hundreds of years ago by a Sufi mystic named Jabbar. In fact the very word ‘gibberish’ derives from his name.
The mind thinks in terms of words. Gibberish helps to break up this pattern of continuous verbalization. Without suppressing your thoughts, you can throw them out using the Gibberish meditation. It is a wonderful way to release physical, mental and emotional stress.
You can do this technique at any time of day. To start with you might want to try 5 minutes of gibberish followed by 5 minutes of silence. Then build up to 15, 20, or 30 minutes of gibberish followed by the equivalent time of silent sitting. Use my Gibberish CD to accompany you. I suggest that you eat lightly before you do this technique.
Stage One: Gibberish
Close your eyes and just start speaking in gibberish, nonsense sounds. Don’t worry about what you sound like, just go totally mad. Make any sounds you like; just don’t speak in a language or use words that you know. Allow yourself to express whatever needs to be expressed within you. Go consciously crazy.
Do it any way you like: sing, cry, shout, scream, mumble, talk. Let your body go free too. Allow it to express itself any way it wants, especially if you’ve been cooped up in an office all day. You may want to stamp, stomp, jump, skip, lie down, run in circles. Do whatever you feel like doing without harming anyone. Do not let up. You should be moving and talking in a steady stream. You don’t want any empty spaces. If no other sounds come, say, ‘blah blah blah,’ but you don’t want any silences during this one.
If you are doing this meditation with other people, try not to be distracted by what they’re doing or to interfere with them in any way. Just stay with what is happening with you. If you cannot make loud sounds, for example, if you live in an apartment complex, then mouth the sounds silently but with the same force as if you were shouting out loud.
Stage Two: Witnessing
Sit in silence with eyes closed and witness whatever is going on within you with nonjudgment.
The Gibberish technique isn’t just for releasing anger, frustration, or rage. You can also use it to express and enjoy positive emotions such as joy or excitement. You might find yourself playful and clowning around having a lot of fun. Allow whatever arises.
Thanks for writing in such a details, Arpana.
However, with the risk of sounding pretentious, I don’t think i need that teaching of yours. One, because they are completely off-topic here (what i posted and asked to you in my above comment are completely different things from what you suggesting me here – Gibberish meditation – the videos of which are available on youtube a dime a dozen), and two, because, i don’t think i have anything gibberish in my mind to throw off as far as this post is concerned.
What i have are just pure doubts, maybe uncontradictory contradictions about Osho, about meditations. It would be immensely impossible for me (and i think for anyone else with a sound mind) to leave those doubts without having relevant answers. By sitting for 60 minutes (why 60 minutes, why not just 51 minutes & 59 seconds, or just plain 24 hours, or as-many-minutes-or-hours-as-i-want kind of meditation, why to limit it for 60 minutes?) of closing the eyes and doing various kind of meditations?
I am extremely sorry, but what you said seemed like gibberish to me which took me a few seconds to shake off without doing any meditation.
I am simply looking for the answers of what you commented above about quantity and quality, and river and pond. Those water-plants found around or beneath a pond less happy than those around and beneath a river?
Thank you and my apology once again if i crossed the boundary somewhere, never meant to do that.
Before I comment on this interesting string, I would like to see the face of Mr. Vivek Raj.
Who so ever he is, one thing sure he can feel too after reading Osho; the change in vision to look at the people and life around.
It is almost like first of those who got reading and eye sight glasses.
If it is so, it is already worth of further investment.
Dear Shantam!
Thanks for your reply to this post!
My face is as ordinary and unique as yours or that of Osho. There is nothing interesting or fake about it. However, since you insisted to see my face before replying to my question, i think i am heartily willing to make that much of sacrifice to get the answer
Here is the link where I posted my yesterday’s birthday photo http://goo.gl/LOFK7t. And this is my facebook profile link just in case if you want some kind of proof : https://www.facebook.com/rajvivekk
Thank you and look forward to your reply!
Vivek
Dear Shantam!
I hope i have proved myself by showing you my face and sharing my profile. I hope you must be satisfied now.
But let me tell you I deeply think that maybe i should have not shared that. Why, because i think, generally people are in a haste to make judgement, become prejudiced about someone too quickly, as swiftly as they could, yesterday itself. So that, next, they could easily dismiss him or her – Oh, he is an Indian, he is bound to think like that; oh, he belongs to this place, and is of this age group, therefore, he must be like this or that, he must be a non-serious, or this or that. Prejudging. Prejudicing.
For example, i don’t know you at all except the fact that you are Shantam here. I don’t know your real name, your age, your sex, how do you look, are you a wheatish Indian, or a white foreigner, what do you wear, how do you look. But you know what. Just an identifier of you (as Shantam) and what and how does you write is more than enough for me within the scope of this post. The rest of things are needless. In fact, they were diverter, as i said they will make me make prejudice towards you, judgemental about you.
Just your words are enough for me to gauge a discussion.
However, since you are a member here, i thought that without revealing myself you won’t pass my answers from moderation here and they will remain in limbo for moderation. Therefore, i revealed who am i, which was not required at all from my point of view as stated above.
Yet, i hope that your answers will not be prejudiced even though you have seen me who am i. I would request you to please reply as naturally as you would be replying to your six year old son
(in my heart, i think i am that much of age only).
Thank you for reading!
And heartily sorry for anything that you didn’t like. Never meant so.
Dear Vivek, you have to ask yourself why you are reading all these books and watching all these videos of Osho… are you spying on him?
“why should an average human being do or be drawn towards meditation, when he or she (an average human being) has already have such problems, upheavals, and ups and downs, in his and her life?”
Sannyas is not for the average human being. It is for the exceptional being.
You see Osho as a man with average problems. His lovers see a man that in his life, he loved and was loved by more people than anyone ever. Osho cannot be understood by the mind. It requires different parameters.
Dear Bodhi!
Thanks for your reply!
Who am i to spy him? I think i am not even an iota of the great person Osho was. And what will i get by spying someone whose life is already an open book? Can somebody spy on Buddha or Krishna? It looks frivolous on very reading of this sentence. And moreover, believe me, spying is not my business.
I am someone who is, among these innumerable hassles, problems, clutters in life, trying to find some meaning, some peace in life. However, i am not going to follow something just because he said something is right, even if it is meditation. I believe i could not reach to the level where Buddha, Jesus, Osho wanted us to reach until we can convince ourselves for that thing to our very core. I want to clear my doubts about some of the things which i find very contradictory, not only on upper level, but also on the very root level.
Until I have these doubts, i don’t think merely doing the nataraj or kundalini or dynamic or any kind of meditation could make any difference to me at all. I have read somewhere in Osho’s teaching that – we are already pure, just we have to remove our negativity, our doubts. Those doubts i want to remove, negativity i think i have remove to a much extent.
Thanks and sorry if i said anything that you didn’t life. I never meant that, nor will i ever mean that.
Thank you again!
Dear Bodhi!
Here below are my response to your couple of comments.
“Sannyas is not for the average human being. It is for the exceptional being.”
Maybe what you are saying is true. However, despite of this portal having its name as sannyasnews.org, in my post i have not talked about sannyas. I know i am ordinary, even if i could UNDERSTAND meditation properly it would be a great moment of joy for me. Sannyas is too far, i understand that.
“Osho cannot be understood by the mind. It requires different parameters.”
Maybe you are right again, but i have a question here – can be reach the tenth rung of a ladder without stepping on the first rung? What is more available to an ordinary person than his or her mind to him? And what are those parameters do you want an ordinary human being like me to have if not mind – supermind, mindlessness, mindfulness? Or are you trying to say that Osho is not available (not understandable means not available) to a person who has nothing to bring to him but mind?
Sorry, but i think great teachings are only those which could penetrate to even a very ordinary person. Kabir, whom Osho was a great fond of, was so raw, so uneducated, but still so simple, his words was so understandable, easily, effortlessly, no parameters required. Still he enlightened. Became one.
Sorry, I swayed away. No offence to anyone.
A human being trying to find some answer.
Dear Vivek, your confusion is understandable. Perhaps after reading my comments it will all come crystal clear.
Osho had big mo-jo and it often served his purposes well. A few quick rubs and big ju-ju happened. At times the gris-gris was a bit off, but what does that matter when world domination is at stake, not to mention the axis of evil? Remember Ronald Raegun? It was Osho’s wampum that drove that evil dictator mad. Beware! This is a war between the light and the darkness!
Osho apparently contradicted himself on numerous occasions, but this was a brilliant subterfuge on his part to align himself with life, which, as you might have noticed, is full of contradictions. This is best understood by appling the highly illogical logic of Swami Doublethinkumji. Once this APP is implemented all will become clear. For example you will realize that Osho is there in the empty chair. He was a non-materialist who loved rolls royces and watches that cost a golden arm and platinum leg. All an illusion as you will one day realize.
Osho was the ultimate nobody so it doesn’t matter that he enjoyed getting high on laughing gas because there was nobody to get high and it was simply a laughless laugh. Osho transcended sex and therefore it was all okay. He was only pretending he liked big buttocks and bazoobies.
As BV so rightly states, ‘Sannyas is not for the average human being. It is for the exceptional being. ‘ This means that sannyasins are really special and flying high above the cares of mere average human beings…they are filth.
Osho had a huge crystal ball and he used it to peer into the future realms and then share the good news with his people. That is how he knew that AIDS would kill two thirds of the worlds population, Mount Fuji would erupt and destroy Japan and that California would fall into the Pacific Ocean. Yes he was such a great guy.
Osho also invented radical love making techniques, mainly to do with wearing rubber suits. His condom on the nose technique is still practised world wide by tantric hokum adepts.
The list is endless…
Yes, he was the master of masters supreme.
Many of his disciples are enlightened.
You have been blessed that Shantam Prem has spoken directly to you…no matter that his verbal delivery is scrambled, bow down and know that an enlightened master of heroic proportions has chosen to address you. I am surprised that he could spare the time as he is very busy promoting Osho’s legupcy and hairytage. Om Namo Shivai. Mark my words, Shantam (I call him El Chudo) will change the world with his valiant crusade…The German Government is considering raising his dole money as a token of respect.
I could say more, but realizing that you, Vivek, are a potential avatar I will let the silence speak.
Oh Lokesh!
You are the only person so far here who made me laugh (and hats off to you for coining so many words by your own. doublethinkumji – hahaha). Thanks for taking out time for this long response.
What i find (and correct me if i am wrong) that your post is full of sarcasm about Osho and their disciples. You seem to be completely pissed off with them. I wonder how you are managing to stay here on this portal. Haven’t you been banned already?!
I could relate the contradictions i was talking about as some of them finding mention in your post. Wordings are different, said with a lot of sarcasm, but almost trying to convey the same thing.
So what is your stand Lokesh, on meditation? Perhaps that would come under the scope of another discussions but I would surely like to know what’s your point of view on them. Are they (meditations and its various poses) equally overrated as much as Osho is? Or there are some truth in them? Which guru do you follow, Lokesh, if you do any? Don’t tell me that you follow some Nothingam Das
. However, if that is your style you can’t help it perhaps. 
Look forward to your response.
And thanks again for your reply. You seem to be a great soul who loves fun and a bit of sarcasm too
Cheers!
Dear Vivek, glad to see you have a sense of humor. I am a disciple of Maharaj Goondhooji in Bangalore. I spend six hours a day in Vipassana and the rest of the time I spend snatching old ladies handbags and shoplifting. I think you would make a great Gandhooji disciple. You will have to go back to last years threads on SN to read something about my beloved master. Like Gandhooji I have renounced the world and only have sex with female goats. Baaaaah!
Hi Lokesh!
Google says there is no result found for “Maharaj Goondhooji”, I have also searched some last year threads here on this portal, and not found anything remotely related.
So, it means you are once again full of nothing but sarcasm here. But i am a little disappointed this time.
I know fun and sarcasm could be and should be a part of life – worldly or sannyasly, but i would like to ask, why you are making mockery of everything every time just for the sake it. I would request if you could please share some genuine, if not serious, side of yours too.
Or just in the hind sight you are wanting to hint something else very subtle that i am not being able to grasp.
Please enlighten!
Vivek, I have already expended great effort in trying to enlighten you. Now you ask for more. Have you no shame? Here is a link to one Gandhooji article on SN.http://sannyasnews.org/now/archives/2768
IRONY: the expression of one’s meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
SARCASM: A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
Now, Vivek, can you tell the difference? Irony can be used in a sarcastic way, but it might not mean one is being sarcastic. I enjoy irony, but I find sarcasm to be, generally speaking, not my favourite form of wit.
I find it ironic that people need to tell you who Osho is and what he was all about, for it is only a reflection of themselves, or even worse an image that is tied in with false identification wishing to be projected towards others for one of multiple reasons, although none have anything to do with Osho.
Osho wrote some pretty good books, why not let him explain himself instead of listening to some dummy’s interpretation? Suggested reading:The Supreme Understanding, The Beloved. You could also jump into some of the meditation techniques. In the long run you will learn more from watching your kids grow up. That’s a long story. So in the meantime why not read Glimpses of a Golden Childhood.
Having attended around 2000 Osho discourses I no longer read Osho books or watch his vids. From his books you might sense the flavour of the man, but I doubt you will get the essence of him because it is my understanding that you need to be with a master when he is alive to get that. I might be wrong. Plenty of people imagine they have a real relationship with Osho even though he died quite some time ago. Good luck.
Thanks for the link and book references, Lokesh! I will definitely go through them.
“you need to be with a master when he is alive to get that.”
Maybe you are right. I need to have a supermaster, as discussing things may not be sufficient.
Thanks for your reply!
“… then why should an average human being do or be drawn towards meditation, when he or she (an average human being) has already have such problems, upheavals, and ups and downs, in his and her life?
No ill-will towards anyone including the late Osho, just curious before clarity.”
Dear Mr. Vivek Raj ,
nice to meet your lines on a caravanserai open table – its open for everybody, a caravanserai ; whatever ´will´or ´not-will” is the intention to post.
If you scroll a little bit in the chats ongoing over time , you will find that out by yourself.
Some just go there for ´peeping´- for sure, some are curious – like you.
A response is something else , than an ´answer´- and ´answers´ of this kind – to the questions you posted (quoting you – above) , you find intellectually meanwhile in many university social psychological so called studies and doctorate stuff.
This is , I guess, not what you are looking for ? (because you can have that by just google-ing or in bibliotheca meanwhile – or in the open papers surveillance institutions churches installed , examining ´psycho-sects´and cults´ etc etc etc.
There are the more or less fixed ´opinions´from on-lookers , researchers, also about some paradoxes and drama you mentioned.
There is vested interest in seeing ´life´ in a way , that upheaval and turmoils,
yes , even dramatic challenges , like betrayal and prosecution should not be part of a smooth and fulfilling (religious) life , spiritual schools , neither should that happen to a Master , nor to a disciple and so on.
That that is not the way of life happening , even not in organized big churches and sanghas , everybody knows, who is neither blind nor deaf .
What will you get of of it (?), when i tell you , that I felt HOME , when I met the Master and being part of His sangha too , and what will you get out of it (?), when I tell you , that that Being HOME is – and has not been any a `personal feeling ´ but an existential ´core knowing .
And what will you get out of it (?), she I share that there was like a magnetic pull , I call it meanwhile sometimes to a ´wisdom whispering´. the gifts of a meditative state.
And what will you get out of it (?), she I share , that me also lie others experienced traumatic issues in context of some stories of the past you mentioned ; and yet BE in that life pilgrimage having been started with what common language calls – a point of no return.
This happens to almost everybody , if you start to have a taste of what is called Meditation.
Everybody can receive that taste , when practicing Silence.; for me it was sitting in His Presence and sitting with friends of This .
For you it might be some other way , who knows – if you have a strong longing to feel HOME in Existence and not only (and don´t misunderstand me, please) in the small family, you are borne in , the country and so on.
And if you are more than curious.
Its a living love affair and ever changing with all kinds of ups and downs
and quite ordinary- extraordinary-ordinary.
And what will you get out of it (?), when I tell you , that anybody , also anybody posting here, might not be able , even by best intentions, to satisfy your curiosity with answers about the paradoxes you mentioned.
Because, if you really dig deep, there are your own answers to this – for the relatively time being. in in your consciousness ..appearing and diapering again …and then …new answers… and so on.
As you are alive – and we all have such a busy mind , isn ´t it ?
That ´the way it is happening; that´s my life ´s experience.
And no answer given to your questions by others will , I presume, really fulfill you , the best such can do, to inspire you inside for your own digging, where your questions come from (and where they are going to)
We do not differ in that , you and me, although I don ´t know you a bit .
Welcome, Mr. Vivek Raj
Have a tea ( a not virtual one) and have my sincerely regards
Madhu
PS
and sorry, if I disappointed or annoyed you
Dear Madhu Dagmar Frantzen!
A million thanks for your answer. Sorry, i could not put Mr., Mrs. or Miss before your name because Madhu is such a unisexual and beautiful name in itself.
I am also sorry that either my English is weak, or yours is or maybe both that i have read your post a few times and still a few lines are not clear to me (for example, …she I share… – what does it mean?) .
However, i am happy that i have understood the gist of your post, and it is making sense to me. Thank you.
Maybe you are right that one day i will find my answer by my own by digging more. Maybe what i am doing here – posting questions and seeking answers from other is also kind of digging. Maybe by responding to the answerers, i will find my own answer in my own response to someone one day. Or maybe i will never find it. I don’t know, but i have to keep trying. I will keep trying – here, there, everywhere.
With all due respect to what you said, i do not believe that nobody and absolutely nobody would give the answer i am seeking for. Maybe I will not find in Osho, maybe i will find it in my four year old son, for example.
I think every person is different. I find Lokesh’s and your responses, with due respect to all the other responses, more appealing than other replies. So it proves that i am not stubbornly guarding myself and not letting anything come within me. I am trying to be open to everything. However, i am not going to follow anything just blindly, just because someone has said so. I will not sit in silence for even a single moment, or maybe i will sit in silence for entire 24 hours, or maybe i will choose something in between. I will not stuck to one thing until that one thing will prove or have proven already that it is what i am looking for.
(Currently i do meditation, just sit silently for a few seconds to an hour approximately every day (no fixed timing, no fixed schedule, and no fixed methodology) doing for last few weeks. Yes, i am that much novish, no big shot, a plain ordinary simple man).
It’s too late now here, but in the morning when i will have my tea i will definitely going to remember you.
Thanks you once again for your answer.
And no, you have neither disappointed nor annoyed me, you have made me more interested to all this.
Beloved Vivek Raj, it seems as if Osho’s life did not go as you think it should have. An enlightened man having ups and downs? Maybe that creates confusion in you. Or perhaps it is because Osho talked on all sorts of paths and all sorts of methods. Maybe that part of the message of Osho seems very confusing. Or maybe the confusion has to do with something else in your mind about Osho.
Howsoever it is happening, things are going perfectly well. If you are feeling confused, that is good. That is meant to be so. Osho would like to confuse you so much that you forget all about being impressed by anybody. Osho’s whole effort is to throw you to yourself. Osho will go on creating confusion until one day or other you will say, “Now I have to decide. This man will drive me crazy!”
One day clarity could just happen: the fight will be over. You find yourself so hopelessly in love that Osho’s words and so-called “contradictions” transform into a rich poetry. Suddenly, instead of seeing life as a problem to be solved, life becomes a mystery to enjoy.
But each of us is unique and clarity may happen differently for you. You will have to find your own way. From what you write it seems you have the right amount of confusion and things are happening as they should. Beautiful!
Dear Kabir!
Thank you for calling me beloved. You are the only one who called me so. And such a nice word for a complete stranger that make you so great, so pure, so awakened. And such a nice name you have. I envy you for that
Thank you once again. I could feel connected with what you wrote.
Yea you are right. I have also read somewhere that when start becoming continuously confused, when people start saying that you are wrong or gone maniac, or is fool, that day you understand that you are on right path of walk. So yes you are right, Kabir.
I too hope that one day the clarity will, by its own, descends on me. And the contradictions and doubts will vanish away meaningfully for ever.
Yes, you are again right, Kabir! I have to find my own way. That is why a newbie like me trying to discussing things out with such experienced people here. Maybe, i will have some way one day or other. Just i have to keep trying.
Thank you once again. And i am no where near you to say this but still i would like to say that may the positivity and blissfulness be with you. Always. So that you could guide a bewildered soul like me in right direction.
Thank you. Cheers!
Vivek Raj, rather than indulging in the ‘thinking dis-ease’, just try a few Osho meditation methods to see if any might suit you.
Otherwise, although you say you’re ‘searching for answers’, it may be that you’re either not ‘ready’ yet – or not ‘desperate’ enough. If you continue to just ‘sit on the fence’ and be merely ‘interested’ then perhaps you haven’t become disillusioned enough by what ‘society’ has mapped out for you – or suffered enough yet…
No offence meant, just a bit of feedback. Anyway, good luck – and good judgment. And don’t be afraid of making ‘mistakes’, they’re par for the course.
Dear Satyadeva!
Thanks a ton for your input!
Maybe you are true that i am not ‘ready’ for it, but i don’t think you are as much true when you say i am not ‘desperate enough’. What does it mean by you to be ‘desperate enough’? Please elaborate.
I have been reading books, discourses, watching videos almost on daily basis; doing a little meditation daily (however, I don’t think i am doing any justice to that because i still have so much doubts about meditation); finding groups (online) where I can put my doubts. And now trying to discuss, respond, Q&A with people here.
If by “desperate enough” you meant to suggest that I should visit a nearby Osho ashram or commune and discuss these things in person with someone therein, I have no problem in that, in fact, i have thought about that too.
However, currently I am limiting myself to online resources due to reason of time and shyness. However, I hope I will get over these constraints soon and will visit someone for sure.
Thank you for this suggestion. Thanks a lot!
Lokesh,
Still ´Beyond Karma´in a Scots whisky pub meanwhile ?
Or up on you way home to the sunny side ´Beyond Freezing´?
Or already there, and never left ?
Anyway, as I had a more then less exhausting day home, with home-work of different kind , I received a laughter , a big one , and the first of today ….
and dancing on the border-lines…. like a tide rope walking mistress…
And thank you for this.
Madhu
Dear Vivek Raj,
I would like to say something about your first question in your letter. It seems to be sincere and therefor relevant to your search and life…
“If Osho in the 37 years of His enlightenment experienced so many upheavals, then why should an average person be drawn to meditation if he or she already has so many problems, ups and downs and upheavals in his life?”
In the first place, you are assuming that ups and downs will disappear after meditation – why should they? Upheavals are part of life and needed for your inner growth…If everything becomes flat after meditation starts in your life how will you know if you are on the right track? Only if you become more happy, blissful through your meditation will you know that you are on the right track! So these upheavals or downheavals are necessary for you to feel the temperature of your inner growth, whether you are going more and more in the right direction.
Secondly, never mind what Osho was going through! None of us sannyasins know what was happening to Osho exactly…and it is better that way, just concentrate on your own inner growth. Never look to others, even if it is Osho, what they are doing, it is not your concern. If they lose their blissfulness or even their enlightenment, what business is it of yours?
Lastly, my friend, don’t pay much attention to the people with their philosophies in the discussion section of this website. There are a lot of people with absolutely nothing to do who apparently love to bother all of us with their utterly boring mind games.
Love,
Sajjad.
Dear Swami Vedant Sajjad!
Thank you for taking out your time for responding to my post.
“Never look to others, even if it is Osho, what they are doing, it is not your concern. If they lose their blissfulness or even their enlightenment, what business is it of yours?”
Suppose i love carving stones, and i love searching for God too. i have a big stone at a nearby field of my house and a person, who was actually an imposter in disguise, said that inside that stone you will find the God you are looking for, but for that you have to chisel that stone for your entire life and then only you will find your God. I believed him and i started chiseling the stone, and after chiseling for decades, i found that there was nothing inside. That person was an imposter. I wasted some precious decades of my life. And later I also found that that imposter had been imprisoned and died in jail due to some stone fallen over him.
Now, let’s take another example, same stone, same field, same love of mine for stone and God. However, this time i meet a genuine sculptor, who says that there is no God inside. But if i learn how to sculpt the stone properly, i may make it turn to a God, made of stone though. He says that with most probability i will find it beautiful, whether i relate it with the actual God or not that is my call to make. He says – my sculpting is true, that i am sure of, because i make a living out it. However, whether the God which i make and you will make out of the stones will be true or not that i don’t know, that you have to decide, that is your call to take.
I find this sculptor genuine. Now it is upto me now to decide whether i learn sculptury, carve the stone, make it turn into God and be happy about it, or just leave and search for something or somewhere else.
So, dear Sajjad, i am trying to find out whether this Osho is that former imposter, who is just saying for only the sake of saying that meditation is bliss and he himself died a less ordinary life, or whether Osho is that genuine sculptor who said the truth which he himself lived his entire life for – take it or leave it but this is what it is it is.
So, Sajjad my friend, whether Osho and his disciples indeed enlightened, and whether meditation indeed bring blissfulness or not, are indeed my business.
I will not follow them blindly because i have only one life to live. But i will not cease to find what meditation is, because if Osho, if meditation, if mindfulness, indeed, has meaning in them, i will not spare my chance to grab them, because i have only one life to live.
Thanks for reading. It went a bit long this time. Sorry. But i hope it worth pondering over and not gibberish to throw away through meditation.
Thanks you once again to coping with me.
“Never look to others, even if it is Osho, what they are doing, it is not your concern. If they lose their blissfulness or even their enlightenment, what business is it of yours?”
I’d suggest that it would be very much the “business” of a sannyasin or, perhaps especially someone like Vivek Raj, new to the game, should it appear the master had lost his “blissfulness or even…enlightenment”! I mean, why expect a newcomer to accept all a master is and has said if he turns out like that?!
Yup, I totally agree with you on this.
You wrote – “…should it appear the master had lost his “blissfulness or even…enlightenment”!…”
Or maybe he even not ever attained it. Or may be it (enlightenment) does not exist at all.
My whole point is this only: Why should I believe something only because someone has just said so to believe it? Does his or her life fully represent, is in tandem with what he preached? Or, with due respect to everyone, everything was or is just an art of oratory, or was and is contradictory?
Thanks for your reply!
Vivek
P.s: : please do not call me Mr. Vivek Raj, Vivek Raj, or even Vivek, Vivek is enough.
You live in Delhi, Vivek.
You say:
(Currently I do meditation, just sit silently for a few seconds to an hour approximately every day (no fixed timing, no fixed schedule, and no fixed methodology) doing for last few weeks. Yes, I am that much novish, no big shot, a plain ordinary simple man).
Very good, as the old man used to say.
But if your work and family life allow, in order to enhance your replies here, it would be good to try some Osho meditations. I know Delhi, like London, (where Sannyasnews is based) is enormous, but there is quite a lot of interest in Osho in Delhi, and in different districts of Delhi.
Oshoworld site:
http://www.oshoworld.com
would have all details if you look around it. It is a very big site but the info is there somewhere! You could also telephone them.
Hi Sanyasnews!
Thanks for your reply! Hope you are doing good.
I have been to one Osho Ashram in New Delhi around a month ago! I was there for around half an hour but it didn’t connect with me due to following reasons, I suppose:
1) I was too shy, too introverted, too self-conscious too ask anything. I am very shy, introvert by nature. I speak not even one hundredth part of what I write in general. So when I am not taking initiative to talk to someone, why on earth some other person will take initiative to come close to me to ask even what I want?
2) This is because in real life too I talk very less, I don’t know how to talk. I am very silent talker. I just either listen or pretend to listen. Written things connect me more easily than spoken. In contrast to when it comes to writing, in talking I almost never argue. I will either accept what you said if I find it to be acceptable, or if I find it not acceptable, I do not protest, I just silently discard without making the speaker even know about it.
3) I am sorry to say this but people were neither welcoming nor cheerful there as much as I expected them to be, which is in contrast with what Osho reminded in his entire life. See, merely this post has gauged so much discussions, brought so much people on one page. I didn’t find a single soul there who could just smile and say to me, Kanha bhatakte aa gaye yanha par, bhai? (what made u come here, bro?). Maybe it was again entirely my fault that I might not have been appearing there a seeker enough, a questioner enough to be taken seriously.
But thank you for suggestion. I will definitely try some other commune. Actually, I am trying to plan to go to Pune ashram, India.
Thank you very much once again!
God (or whatsoever you call it) bless you! It takes more courage to write on behalf of someone or something than to represent oneself.
“Written things connect me more easily than spoken. In contrast to when it comes to writing, in talking I almost never argue.”
If it’s of any help, Vivek, during a darshan I once heard Osho say there are two kinds of people: those who communicate best via speaking and those who express themselves better by writing. I remember that well as I knew I was in the latter category (as did Osho, who glanced in my direction as he said it).
I can well understand your discomfort during your recent visit to that Centre. But no need to put yourself down, it’s just how you happen to be and, as the old saying goes, ‘this too will pass’…
Besides, I’d bet that if the truth were known, those people you came across there are almost certainly ‘nothing special’, despite any self-important, holier-than-thou ‘image’ they might have been projecting, or which you put on to them. So, next time no need to feel essentially ‘inferior’!
Thanks for the good words, Sir!
“So, next time no need to feel essentially ‘inferior’!”
I don’t feel inferior there. I think I am too shy to start a conversation with a stranger even though I know that they will be helpful.
I would try if I could shed that shyness away, however, I don’t think it is easily possible.
Thanks again for all your responses!
You have been very kind and explanatory in your responses.
Thank you very much!
Pune Resort is best, though you might also find it is not particularly welcoming. Be aware that SannyasNews is one site only and may not reflect the views of the ‘average sannyasin.’ Good luck.
Thank you, Alokjohn, for your suggestion, wariness, and wish!
Sannyasnews seniors are like doctors in a hospital where once in a while comes some patient.
All get excited, finally they can use the stethoscope!
Shantam
16 Signs You Have A Sense Of Entitlement Complex
http://lonerwolf.com/sense-of-entitlement/
So where and which is the stethoscope, Sir?
That is what I am looking for in all seriousness.
Yes Arpana, that is why I am a sannyasin.
I wonder which one from us does not have this entitlement complex!
Maybe it started from the master itself.
Don´t you think it was one of the reason Osho was maligned so much by his contemporaries?
No Shantam.
That is why you are not a sannyassin.
You just think you are.
That is the whole thing. You are not what you think you are.
Sums the whole Sannyass shenanigans, (At a personal level.) up well.
Pretty much all the negative and positive ideas,
self deceiving positive and negative ideas
I came to Osho with, have gone.
Yes, and Shantam never met Osho either, yet he is an enlightened one.
Is this true for you too Mr. Lokesh?
I don´t think you will ever dare to say to your wife, ” You are not what you think you are.”
People who wrote such sentences in their, ” Who Are You, ” kind of books were asexual by nature, born celibates!
Thank you Vivek Raj, alias King of Wisdom, alias……..hmmmmm, maybe you have another pre or after fix? You as king of wisdom are so humble with your innocent questions about all the paradoxes that appeared in Osho, and you most sjertainly seem to have touched all of us deeply, in our laughter and deep in our soles! Please write again!
Hi Karima!
Thank you
No prefixes or suffixes, simply ‘vivek’ is more than enough, Karima.
Don’t know how, what, where I touched to whom; when, where, how and by whom I will be touched, that is the question currently I ask, am looking for.
Thank you!
Dear Vivek Raj,
What a temperamental entry you had in the desert´s virtual caravanserai and it´s chattings of all the creatures (the living in a human´s body and other entities too) !
This morning, sitting here in Munic, Germany, I had a toast on you , Dear, getting ´hooked´, how I name that, by your posted parable of the sculpture student.
And like so often , memories came up of Sangha listening and me IN it , and Osho , talking of Michelangelo , the Master Sculpturer and His way , to find expression to the marble ; and the Master used that as a parable too;
And combined that (as often He did) in the eightieth´s of Last centuries Lectures (?_ Arpana , help?!) with the ´real daily´ happenings on very uncivilized but real civil stages , where a hooligan destroyed one of Michelangelo´s very famous sculptures in Roma, Italy. With a hammer.
You are very well counceled by you inner counsellor to keep you awareness fresh to identify ´impostors´, as you call it;
However, what to say… : ´outer impostors´quite often, when not always , are in a kind of twin position to the ´inner ones´; they may miraculously disappear (on the outer) when you have been able to identify the inner ones . Or not.
But there is no guaranty – and no way to make that a `meditation´-business kind of approach like an investment banker….
And no guaranty that you are going to be rewarded (by others) if you complete one ´discovery´.
So better to know that from the very beginning.
,
As I can´t have tea with you here and the sharing goes the way , it goes , me also I would recommend to you to meet some fellow travelers in India (like Neelam , whom I know personally , and the bunch of friends around her for example.)
It´s good to make acquaintance , get a glimpse of that , that ´Soul´has no age,
the manifestation in the body has, body has , also our psyche can get very tired and wracked up , by not being able to cope , digest and integrate what´s being offered to us individually on the plate , so to say.
My love affair to India is not a geographic one ; yet it has been of tremendous importance , that I came to know about this country by experiencing a tiny little bit – ages to go by now.
We are all globally growing together in our conciousness´es to an extend , we still have to learn , to digest a better way , than that is manifesting up to now.
To have bunch of meditative friends is a great support. Can be.
I wish you very well , Vivek Raj
And the next person´s you are able to give a hearty hug
IS yourself – and your wife and especially your four years old son, who indeed can teach you many things;
also to keep contact with your own inner child.
The latter helped me to survive many very challenging and difficult phases in my life.
Have a nice day, Vivek
Madhu
Thanks a million, Madhu!
I am not even a millionth part of what you are, but still without having any sense of entitlement or superiority complex, I wanted to say that it feels to me that you are great soul. Thank you. I too wish I had a chance to sit with you and have a share of jokes with you at least
Thanks a ton for having so much positivity in your post about India, about the parable, about me, and an overall optimism. This time i could not find any difficulty at all in understanding your reply, perhaps my English has improved a bit or perhaps I have connected with you somehow on some other level.
Thank you for suggesting me to be in touch with the inner child with me, apart from my family.
Thank you very much!
No Shantam.
That is why you are not a sannyassin.
You just think you are.
No Mr. Singh
That is why you are not a Sikh
You just think you are.
No. Haji Shah
That is why you are not a Muslim
You think you are.
No Mr. Smith
That is why you are not a Christian
You think you are..
People who use such kind of statements are the biggest axxholes of the world. Their ego is as vast as balck holes.
For me, they are the curse wherever they are.
Castrating other people because they don´t fit into the priestly images is violence to its extreme.
Shantam.
You sound more like a priest than anybody else who posts here.
El Chudo, we all know that Arpana and SD are in cahoots with el diablo and you are the torch bearer of Osho’s legupacy, yet I am left with one question that plagues me day and night. Can you explain how you achieved such a panoramic state of awareness without having met Osho? Is there a self help book you could recommend the readers?
Vivek Raj,
you obviously misunderstood, never mind.
Look, it’s all very paradoxical: you need the Master but for what, exactly? Osho once said something like: “I have to give something to people which they don’t know they need”. So let’s just say you have become aware that there is something that you need, or that there is something missing in your life. Then how to start?
What I meant was: how can you say if someone has no blissfulness (or has lost it) if you yourself are not yet blissful? You don’t have the eyes yet to recognize it, so how will you recognize the right master? As about “losing enlightenment”, I was only joking, as I’ve heard Osho say “once enlightened you cannot lose it”. So in short: how are you, Vivek Raj, going to see if someone is worth your efforts?
You wrote the second time and you gave two examples of Masters. I would say the second example in your story is certainly the genuine one, you are right. This one says: “you can carve this stone, but there is no god inside”. So my idea is: you can tell He is genuine because He doesn’t give you any hope, that’s the business of the imposter, the Master who is pretending to be a Master will give you hope; in fact that’s the first thing he will give to you! He will say: “trust me, if you do this exercise and that you will become enlightened!”
So, the first way you, as an average human being, can determine the Real Master is if he takes away everything away from you, even your hope to find God! This second Master who says “inside there is nothing, but still you have to carve every day, becoming more and more aware…” knowing that you will say: “but then what’s the point? If inside there is nothing, what am I wasting my time for? All my efforts might be useless!”
There’s a beautiful story Osho told about Buddha: that he realised that it was going to be difficult if he told disciples that it was about Emptiness (Anatta), but still he called his religion Nothingness. The difficulty is that people are afraid of Nothingness, it is the death of the ego, but still Buddha chose that word instead of Fullness. Because as you are carving at awareness and meditation you can also become more full. So, you can become full of blissfulness for example and feel it that way, but there is danger: the ego might jump on it, but still the feeling of fullness is genuine. So it is better to forget it and focus on becoming empty and carry on carving, no matter how blissful you are becoming.
The paradox is this: for many people the journey may seem a little shaky, dangerous, like you say “many new problems will arise and I already have so many problems in my ordinary life”… and that’s why you need the love of the Master. That’s the paradox: you need the Master but He can only give you nothing! He can take you by the hand for a little while until your trust is strong enough: it is a Love Affair! Master and Disciple: the MAD affair! Don’t fear: start meditating with full abandon and you will see…put all your efforts into it and one day you will look at a picture of Osho and see: this man remained blissful every day of His life, under any cicumstance, even if He is dragged off to court!
“What a guy!” you will say.
Love, vedant sajjad (=that which is beyond words, devotee)
Vivek, beware, pay no attention to Sajjad. He is an imposter. He knows nothing of Osho and is actually a Jehovah’s Witness. Reports are coming in that his bedroom is decorated with illicit photographs of Mother Theresa in a state of undress. Yes, just the thought of it can shock one to the very core of their being. Some people have no respect! Out demons out!
Dear Vedant Sajjad!
Thank you writing for me and answering my queries. I understand what you are trying to say.
I understand that –
The master will give me nothing, in all sense of words. Yes, I understand what nothing is, and I am ready to accept that he will give me nothing, and I am perfectly ok with that.
My question is, Vedant Sajjad, if his life is as ordinary in all sense of words, as is of an ordinary human being, how should I believe if he indeed eloped into nothingness, and a never-born-never-died status, or was it just a matter of oratory, nothing else?
He was born for sure, he died for sure. He had all sorts of problems for sure. These are the facts that no one could deny, It’s all in black and white. My question is – is there something else that his closest disciples know that their people in general are not aware of and that’s worth knowing, and in turn, worth doing meditation?
Let me ask a very straightforward question:
What is the difference between Osho (who was in meditation camp for as long as he physically lived) and an average human being (who never did meditation and died due to heart ailment)?
Sorry, it got a little serious.
Thanks for reading and thanking in anticipation for your reply!
A very simple answer, yet nevertheless one I believe, from all the evidence, including my experience of him, to be utterly the case is simply this:
Osho, after enlightenment (which, among other things, might be translated as finding one’s immortality and hence losing all fear of death) was never unhappy, despite conditions.
Why? Because there was no ‘person’ (in the normal sense of the word) there to become unhappy.
After God knows how long, how many lifetimes (whatever that actually means), the young man named Mohan Rajneesh had successfully ‘dismantled’ his ‘self’, ‘died’ to all that could come between ‘him’ and ‘God’/Life Itself, all the stuff that we invariably cling to, as if our very lives depend on it all (beliefs, values, emotions, judgments, fear, material ambitions etc. etc. etc.).
Anyway, that’s how I see it.
So is one who is always truly happy despite of conditions and has no fear of death, enlightened?
How would I know?!
But from what I’ve heard, read and seen these last 40-plus years, in all probability, yes.
Btw, I prefer the phrase ‘never unhappy’ rather than “always truly happy”, as “happy” somehow tends to hint at its opposite and they tell me ‘enlightenment’, being one with Life, and so on, is beyond such normal polarities of our psyche.
One can rely on you, Lokesh,
took some afternoon lessons in Nature,
and read about the article in my favorite satirical news later coming daily
about how the Scots these days celebrate their defeat-not-defeat with great humor.
Otherwise – to balance this, much is going more topsy turbo worldwide (wars and other stuff)
and sometimes , I wish, I were NOT here – PLUS….(as the bavarian world cup Madness just goes into the first weekly round)
and these three weeks for me elderly women and single are not that funny as for most other people, especially man and families and cults , business people and what we call here “stammtisch”- congregations)
Have mercy on me and I would like to order one GOOD joke daily , please
to find on a caravanserai table (neither sexist nor sadist – IF possible )
Looking forward to my next laughter.. seeing the screen here…like today – and wow , twice in a row already…
Madhu
One can rely on you, Lokesh,
took some afternoon lessons in Nature,
and read about the article in my favorite satirical news later coming daily
about how the Scots these days celebrate their defeat-not-defeat with great humor.
Otherwise – to balance this, much is going more topsy turbo worldwide (wars and other stuff)
and sometimes , I wish, I were NOT here – PLUS….(as the bavarian world cup Madness just goes into the first weekly round)
and these three weeks for me elderly women and single are not that funny as for most other people, especially man and families and cults , business people and what we call here “stammtisch”- congregations)
Have mercy on me and I would like to order one GOOD joke daily , please
to find on a caravanserai table (neither sexist nor sadist – IF possible )
Looking forward to my next laughter.. seeing the screen here…like today – and wow , twice in a row already…
Madhu
Hi Mr Vivek Raj!
I just want to add a few brief comments to the wealth of attention you have already received on this site:
Firstly, take very seriously Satyadeva’s advice to go and do some Osho meditations. This has been my own strongest point of contact with Osho, since I was not around when he was alive, unlike many others here. I can personally vouch that the experience has been very powerful, highly significant and life-changing. Whether that would be the case for you….who knows?
Secondly, you seem dubious about Osho having ‘ups and downs’, athough he claimed to be ‘enlightened’ and a practising meditator. Don’t be! In fact, see it as an advantage if you can… he was only human! Beware of those who sell themselves as being ‘infallible’ and of spotless moral behaviour (eg take a look at the Catholic Church past & present).
Thirdly, try not to get involved in ‘gaping at the fluff’ eg being lost in admiration for the copious number of books Osho was supposed to have read and written etc, etc. Or to put it another way if I have not already made myself clear, don’t become a star-gazer/hero-worshipper unless it’s yourself of course. It’s all about you – not him!
Fourthly, as far as I am concerned, embarking on the road of self-discovery, self-awareness and self-development is not, about reaching some permanent state where you are floating around in eternal blissfulness. I wish that exalted condition were true, but after 14 yrs of meditating I have not made it yet! It is more about ( I think Arpana has already said something on these lines…. so here’s some reinforcement!), how you live your life, and about how you deal with the ‘ups and downs’ when they inevitably come up.
Finally, I recommend some further reading for you: ‘Enlightenment – The Damnedest Thing’, by J. McKenna.
Here is another:
No longer making a problem out of ‘problems’.
Dear Ashok!
Thanks a lot for your response to my post, and i am sorry for the delay in acknowledging and responding so late.
I will respond para-by-para (your paragraphs are under inverted commas).
“Firstly, take very seriously Satyadeva’s advice to go and do some Osho meditations.”
Yes, i am taking everything seriously. Reading and writing everything seriously. Not a tiny bit of fakeness in it. Maybe some people themselves responding here just for the sake of responding, and maybe some people think that I am here just for fun, for show-off or cast a niche in the world, or for improving my English. Those could be the by-products which may or may not come along. But here I am, with all seriousness, to become a seeker, and to find the answers. When, where, why and by whom I will get those answers is a matter of my concern too.
So, yes, I am taking heed of all the advice related to doing Osho meditations. Currently, I do meditation at home and only for few minutes. But definitely I will change place and time in due course of time as and when it is bound to happen. Thanks for reaffirming that suggestion.
“Secondly, you seem dubious about Osho having ‘ups and downs’, although he claimed to be ‘enlightened’ and a practising meditator. Don’t be! In fact, see it as an advantage if you can…he was only human! Beware of those who sell themselves as being ‘infallible’ and of spotless moral behaviour (eg take a look at the Catholic Church past & present).”
I do not understand why it is questionable for the questioner to question even if he is questioning to the ‘Master’. Yes, i am doubtful about something he taught, something he spoke, some part of life he lived. So i can question when i have doubts. On some level, at some point, in some way, I feel connected with him, but I also see contradictions in his saying, teaching, in his life, which, i think, i have every right to get the clarity of.
“Thirdly, try not to get involved in ‘gaping at the fluff’ eg being lost in admiration for the copious number of books Osho was supposed to have read and written etc, etc.”
If you go by all the posts here I wrote, I am more into confusion and doubt and questioning him than in admiration of him.
“Fourthly, as far as I am concerned, embarking on the road of self-discovery, self-awareness and self-development is not about reaching some permanent state where you are floating around in eternal blissfulness. I wish that exalted condition were true, but after 14 yrs of meditating I have not made it yet! It is more about (I think Arpana has already said something on these lines…so here’s some reinforcement!), how you live your life, and about how you deal with the ‘ups and downs’ when they inevitably come up.”
So, now you are sounding interesting. 14 years you spent in meditation, and you are saying there is nothing like reaching some permanent state where you are floating around in eternal blissfulness. If there is nothing like that, then what is the role of meditation and enlightenment for someone who deals with his or her ups and downs without being stressed, for someone who is unaffected in his both rainy or merry days? (I am not talking about me here, but there are people who are indifferent in their varying situations, almost feelingless, and may still do not know even ‘m’ of meditation, or ‘e’ of enlightenment).
”Finally, I recommend some further reading for you: ‘Enlightenment – The Damnedest Thing’, by J. McKenna.”
Thanks for the recommendation. Currently I am reading ‘Glimpses of a Golden Childhood’, recommended by Lokesh. I would try your recommended book once I finish this one.
Thank you once again for your post and guide.
Vivek
Beloved Vivek Raj, if you decide to read the book Ashok recommended, you do not need to buy it. The book is available free of charge in PDF format:
http://www.naturalthinker.net/trl/texts/McKenna,Jed/SpiritualEnlightenment-DamnestThing.pdf
Thanks for your response, Kabir!
Currently, i am reading ‘Glimpses of a Golden Childhood’, recommended by Lokesh. Once i finish this book, then i will try the one recommended by Ashok.
Thanks for the link.
Thank you!
Those who have not met or seen Osho yet feel connected with him should feel encouragement from the post of Vivek Raj (He is an authentic guy, wrote with his real name. I must salute this innocent courage).
So any of the youngsters have any thought, any question whether psychological, spiritual, esoteric or erotic, please write with details.
Our in-house seniors will offer you sincere and sharp advice free of cost. Just think in terms of money, it is a big saving.
This is sharing without any strings attached.
“This is sharing without any strings attached.” — Shantam
Beloved Shantam, spiritual truth is free. It is an open secret and should never be sold. It is New Age practice to sell spiritual truth, or to sell experiences by leading you to believe those experiences are necessary for realizing spiritual truth. Osho condemned New Agers.
Of course people are free to voluntarily choose to be economically exploited, and perhaps for them nothing is wrong. But we are all human beings. We are all together on the same journey home. Why charge tolls?
This is my experience: Osho never collected a toll to share his spirituality. His satsang was free, his darshan was free, his discourses were free, his love was freely given. No one was ever excluded from Osho’s Neo-Sannyas; it was given freely.
Unlike New Age rip-off artists, Osho is simply following in the same spirit of other fragrant flowers who give of themselves unconditionally, free of charge. In the same spirit of Buddha. In the same spirit of Jesus. Jesus said: “Ask, and ye shall receive.” Jesus did not say: “Ask, and ye shall have to pay a level one course fee.”
“These psychoanalysts, now they are the New Age gurus. They know certain tricks about the mind, but they have no idea of the innermost core of your being. You have to be very careful and cautious because there has never been such a tremendous desire for transformation, hence there are bound to be many people who will not miss this opportunity to exploit you.” — Osho, I Am That, ch.3
“Osho condemned New Agers”
I sense the old old ´East versus West´- sometimes very hidden conflict, lurking round the corner, Kabir, when you quote (out of context) and make statements like this.
Experiencing the Master as a rebel against ALL kinds of exploitations, from the side of priests and politicians and priestly politicians, neither western nor eastern stupidities have been left out by Him to speak about, to ´call a spade a fucking spade´.
He was quite a supremely informed Being, as His amount of books in His Library is giving testimony of.
I just mention that because I feel there is still such a lot to do, or to let go of- in terms of this ´East versus West´under currencies of ideological conflicts, up to this day and often also tangible on this website; and high time to reconcile and align that, to enrich each other and to meet.
Madhu
Maybe an East versus West thing going on here, but not a West versus East.
Parasites eat the crops or crops eat the parasite?
Contemplate!
My god.
I agree with you about something, Shantam.
Yes. You are a parasite.
“I really want you not to take my words the way they are being ordinarily taken
and understood — as meaningful, as imparting some information to you. I am not teaching you anything. I don’t have any message. I am not converting you. I am simply singing my own song. The meaning is not in the words, the meaning is in the silences between the words.” — Osho, Om Mani Padme Hum, ch.19
What is this nonsense, Kabir1440? Satyadeva asked you to please stop quoting Osho. Stand on your two feet, man. Now you are quoting Osho to show that Osho quotes are meaningless? You are contradicting yourself, Kabir1440.
Kabir 1440 continues to demonstrate how he’s won the SN Slippery-as-an-Eel Award, 2014.
He doesn’t want anyone here to know he’s in his 50′s, Indian and has rarely, if ever, worked in his entire life. He also sees “buddhas” in his local supermarket…
Reminds me of Brian the Clone…
Perhaps he is B the C….
Re Osho, Sannyas and money, I haven’t seen anything about the amounts lost by the many people who invested in the Ranch project.
And it certainly wasn’t cheap to get over there and pay for a summer festival, far from it. My partner at the time was so desperate to go one summer, she borrowed the money from a friend of mine and was burdened with the repayment for a long time after.
I remember turning up one early evening, after many hours of travelling the 6000 miles, to be informed I’d be charged (and the fee was expensive) for the full day, even though all I was fit for was bed. Finding that unacceptable, I took the coach back to Portland, a pretty long trip, and came the following day instead.
This is an interesting story, SD.
You can tell more, what prompted you to go at the very first place.
You must be aware that Osho´s ashram was not Hindu Ashrams from the very beginning.
Shantam, as I said, I went for a week’s annual summer festival (1983). In fact, after that inauspicious beginning, I enjoyed it, it was worth the effort and expense.
Osho’s places not being Hindu ashrams didn’t come into it, the published deal was to pay so much per day for food and accommodation (plus all the rest), but no one had told me in advance that an evening (in effect, a night’s sleep) was also to be considered as a whole day! I’d do the same now should that sort of rip-off happen again.
Another example of dumb, inflexible, aggressive and grabbing ‘Mismanagement’ practices. Not very friendly and loving towards another dearly ‘Beloved’, who had just travelled from afar, was it? Leopards it seems, don’t change their spots. The same shoite was still going on the last time I was in Pune, a few years ago.
Good for you, Satyadeva! Clearly you are a man of principles…That’s exactly the kind of thing I do when I get a paddy on me. Could it be you have some Irish blood in you?
Two Irish grandparents, Ashok, one on each side.
I did write a letter of complaint, but I’m not sure I received a reply. What annoyed me was the implicit assumption that we were all well off, simply because we lived in the West and had come to Oregon for the festival; no appreciation that it was a tight squeeze for many.
I see the beginnings of a Celtic Black Robe Brotherhood, coming together on SN! Must drop a line to Lokesh.
If you did receive a reply from Mismanagement sources I feel there’s a fairly good chance it would have said something on the lines of:
“Beloved,
Please note we do not do sharing. Clearly, you have issues and need to take a look at yourself. We have several therapists available who could provide you with the necessary help at reasonable prices.”
Well, Ashok, I’m sure any reply I got wasn’t like that. Although, of course, I was dealing with the Ranch regime in its heyday.
Obviously my imaginary letter was based on my own hard experience. Maybe, they are showing signs of progress?
“He also sees “buddhas” in his local supermarket” – Satyadeva
Beloved Satyadeva, it is not just the supermarket. They are everywhere! I was walking in the Ansal Plaza mall the other day. Buddhas are everywhere! I saw them in Pizza Hut. I kept walking and I saw them in the Apple Store. I kept walking and I saw them in the Osho World Galleria. Do you, perhaps, need an eye doctor? Buddhas are everywhere!
“In Zen all that you have to find is that you are already a Buddha, that there is no accomplishment, that there is no growth, that there is no attainment, that Buddhahood is everybody’s inner nature. Everybody is a Buddha; whether you know it or not makes no difference. A few Buddhas are fast asleep and snoring, a few Buddhas have become awakened, but both are Buddhas.”
–Osho, The Sun Rises in the Evening, ch. 1
You appear to have overlooked your nomination for another Award, Kabir. Let me jog your memory…
“However, it seems you might well be one of those who uses Osho for his own person-al convenience, in this case aiming – perhaps half-consciously – to lend your view of your self and your public personsa/image a kind of ‘glamour’ through association with the Great Man who was ‘just like you’ (ie ‘lazy’)!…
As a result of this transparent self-delusion, you’ve just been nominated for the SN ‘Using Osho and/or Other Masters as a Smokescreen’ Award. But for this one, of course, you have quite a lot of competition….”
Kabir1440,
Do you think in Osho´s case money was showered from the trees?
For some time I daresay Osho believed money was showering from the trees, as El Chudo puts it. At some point he doubtless realised it wasn’t. Perhaps round the time he got upset when Sheela betrayed him by not purchasing him a watch that cost in excess of $2,000,000 and probably looked like something found in a lucky bag. Aye, she was an evil one right enough.
There is a need to start a worldwide competition: Quote your Scriptures!
Year after year, someone from us will win the gold.
And year after year, the winner will tell to the press, ” Only losers are the winners.”
Norman Bush had a terrible stutter. His wife Rose suggested that he go and see a specialist. Reluctantly he was persuaded to visit the best man in Harley Street who told him, “Well, Mr. Bush, there is only one thing we can do about this stutter of yours. You see, the problem is your balls are too big. However, we should be able to transplant a smaller pair. That would undoubtedly cure your ailment.”
Norman was given a week to think it over and reluctantly accepted to undergo surgery. When he came out, his speech fully restored, his wife was delighted. Then came those long nights when Rose was eager and Norman showed no interest. As the weeks went by she grew more anxious and frustrated.
Then one night she said to him, “You know, I think I preferred you the way you were before, with your big balls and your stutter. I would go and see that doctor again and have the operation reversed.”
Reluctantly, Norman was dragged off again to the specialist. “You know, Doctor,” said Norman, “my wife says she liked me better the way I was before with my stutter and all, and, um, well, ah, do you think I could have my old balls back again?”
“Not f-f-f-fucking likely!” said the doctor.
Osho.
The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha,
Vol 9
Chapter #4
Chapter title: Freedom is something inner
14 February 1980 am in Buddha Hall
“There is a need to start a worldwide competition: Quote your Scriptures!” — Shantam
Beloved Shantam, this is a great idea!
One question: Satyadeva says I have already won the SN Slippery-as-an-Eel Award. Does that disqualify me from winning the “Quote your Scriptures” award?
1.“Osho cannot be understood by the mind. It requires different parameters.”
“Maybe you are right again, but i have a question here – can be reach the tenth rung of a ladder without stepping on the first rung?”
It’s not a ladder. It’s more like a field, and the longer you spend there, the more you see. Meditation (like Enlightenment or Sannyas) are not easy to say what they are… it is much easier to say what they not. Meditation is not an addition to your being. It will take something away from you. On the mental level it will take away your questions. On the physical level it will not put you in different place, it will make the place you are in, somehow “feel different”. What you are looking for is not “up-there” or “out-there” somewhere. It’s inside you covered up by rubbish… oops, I meant to say… the personality.
2. “What is more available to an ordinary person than his or her mind to him?
Other people. People like Osho. (Alternate paths have also been recommended to you here by others but Osho’s is the easiest because it has Osho in it.)
3. “And what are those parameters do you want an ordinary human being like me to have if not mind – supermind, mindlessness, mindfulness?”
The journey is from the mind to the emotions, from the head to the heart.
“Or are you trying to say that Osho is not available (not understandable means not available) to a person who has nothing to bring to him but mind?”
4. Yes.
Thank you for the answers, Bodhi Vartan!
Vivek.
The title of your string is “I have never met Osho” – I have and maybe it will be useful to you if I tell you about the experience (not my interpretation of him or what he wanted – just the details to the best of my recollection)
In 1975 I travelled overland from the UK to Poona when I was 18 with great hopes and expectations of finally meeting Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (as he was known as in those days, but I will refer to him as Osho)
I arrived late in the evening and quickly found a hotel. First thing in the morning I went straight to the Ashram and asked if I could see Osho? I was told “yes” comeback this evening for Darshan. I remember the atmosphere that evening being absolutely magical, the sun had just set and the descending darkness only seemed to enhance the anticipation. The buzz of insects and the scent of flowers all played a part.
A group of about 12 of us were shown into a small dimly lit porch area where we sat down in a semi circle around an empty chair.Then suddenly unannounced Osho came ‘gliding’ in dressed in a long white robe, sat in the chair, leaned back and crossed his leg.
And I really was not that impressed (as he looked just like an ordinary man) and not according to my expectation (or imagined connection.)
I heard a voice say “he is new” and realised that everyone was looking at me, including Osho. I could feel my heart rate increase as I got up to sit in front of him. The moment I sat down he asked: “What name were you given?” (I had taken Sannyas a few months earlier via post.)
I told him my name and then he started to ask me lots more questions:-
Where I had come from?
What was the journey like?
What I did for a living?
Where are you staying? (he said he knew the hotel)
I was then totally stunned when he asked very casually: “Why have you come to see me?”
Even to this day I can recall the shock that I felt when asked to account for myself. (Vivek, it is far easier to ask questions then to have to answer them.)
I naturally assumed that it was obvious why I was there. But now ‘self enquiry’ in front of Osho was required.
I cannot remember exactly how I answered, I must have said something as I heard him say either: “It is very rare to be attracted to somebody who has nothing (or) can give you nothing”
He then lent to a female Sannyasin sitting by his side and said something to her that I could not hear. Whatever it was she looked up at me and smiled. He then gave me an even bigger smile which said “enough for today” so I went back and sat in my place.
What did always impress me was how polite he was and the infinite amount of patience he seemed to have for his sannyasins.
Hope this helps – Good luck.
Dear Swami Anand Anubodh!
Thanks a lot for sharing your story and experience with me.
Thank you very much!
Tragedy of the life is very few people get the chance to see walking and talking Jesus or real life Buddha moving with his begging bowl.
But we all want to have the glimpse of something which is bigger than life.
Easiest way is to create their images and heroic stories as vast as human imagination can stretch.
If someone has never met Osho, no need to feel discouraged. Has someone met Krishna or prophet M from the oil-rich desert?
El Chudo delivers his latest offering, or was it a gas eruption emanating from his overloaded XXXL chuddies? A mystery to be lived, no doubt. He speaks for us all by declaring, “But we all want to have the glimpse of something which is bigger than life.”
Seeing as how there is only life and therefore nothing, except the space that holds life, that could be bigger, one could presume that he means something else other than big life. The world of events that we are born into, perhaps. I would be curious to hear what El Chudo envisages that is bigger than life but, accustomed to his evasive tactics when anything in the form of a coherent response is required, doubt he will deliver anything other than some new remix of the mumbo-jumbo variety that nobody will be able to understand.
Once more we have the parroting of Osho being on par with Christ and Buddha. Something I do not agree with and also those men lived over 2000 years ago. I don’t see it as tragic that not everyone meets beings of an elevated consciousness. The simple fact is that very few appreciate such a thing. Jesus was nailed to a cross for casting his pearls before swine…very few, even those close to him, understood Christ. That is the real tragedy. I think the same applies to Osho, although not in a way that it did to Christ.
FRIENDS,
“The simple fact is that very few appreciate such a thing. Jesus was nailed to a cross for casting his pearls before swine…very few, even those close to him, understood Christ. That is the real tragedy. I think the same applies to Osho, although not in a way that it did to Christ.”
Thank you for your clear-cut evening nugget , Lokesh, and especially these lines
And thank you, Arpana, for the daily joke, you offered ; it all works
and i am grateful , that I can look inside- outside this way , when coming home from one another of quite exhausting ´city´days into the flat , I call my home base .
In wonder- if life is living me or me living life ; the ´particle or the wave thing´, you know , (remember ?) feeling sometimes even less than ´nothing´, and don´t get me wrong, has nothing to do with ´self esteem or the missing of it ´-
My private computer , I use at my private place and space here never being a reliable technical stuff (being scapegoat(ed and bugged)
So sorry sometimes about that – for ages it seems.
And a n y day a day , and night to practice , being in total insecurity and yet
visiting a ´caravanserai´space in a Trust , as also other places in civic life .
a Trust , which I don´t know , where that comes from , or where it´s going to.
and yet – it´s there
Love
Madhu
Beloved Madhu, you recently asked for jokes. As you know, I have been nominated for the SN ‘Using Osho and/or Other Masters as a Smokescreen’ Award. Also, Osho told jokes in his discourses. So are the jokes primarily quotes from discourses for the quotes award, or are they being used as smokescreens for the Smokescreen award?
By putting up jokes, are your quotes competition or smokescreen competition?
There are so many awards being given out it is a bit confusing at times.
Should we desire SN free of Osho quotes and Osho jokes?
“Desire clouds the mind. Desire makes smoke around you, a smokescreen, and then you cannot see what is in fact the case.” — Osho, Tao: The Three Treasures, Vol 1, ch. 2
“So are the jokes primarily quotes from discourses for the quotes award, or are they being used as smokescreens for the Smokescreen award?
By putting up jokes, are your quotes competition or smokescreen competition?”
If you had a bit of intelligence, Kabir, you’d know the answer – and see that the question is totally stupid.
Now, have another look and perhaps you’ll get it…but I doubt it somehow….
“If you had a bit of intelligence, Kabir, you’d know the answer – and see that the question is totally stupid.”
Beloved Satyadeva, thank you for expressing your opinion and for the opportunity to share a quote. I am enjoying this sharing with you.
“A man came to Ramakrishna and asked, “Where is God?” Ramakrishna started laughing and said, “What a stupid question to ask! Tell me where he is not? He is everywhere, so I cannot tell you where he is. He is everywhere, hence you cannot find him in any particular place. He is this very space. I ask you,” he said, “tell me, where is he not?”
–Osho, God’s Got a Thing About you, ch. 30
Ok, Kabir, as you are clearly unable to see the point, here’s a clue:
The quote you’re using today is an excellent candidate for the ‘Using Osho and/or Other Masters as a Smokescreen’ Award. In other words, in this context it’s a pile of old bullshine.
Now, Kabir, can you see exactly how and why it’s a pile of old bullshine? I realise it might be difficult for you, but please show some persistence, don’t give up yet, there’s something in this for you….
PS: As you continue to evade questions regarding your age, nationality and (lack of) work experience, Kabir, I assume the Bullshine Investigations Unit has unearthed the correct details (see my recent post).
Furthermore, as you have remained silent on the issue of your true identity, I shall be referring to you from now on as Brian-the-Clone (aka Swami R).
“PS: As you continue to evade questions regarding your age, nationality and (lack of) work experience, Kabir….” – Satyadeva, great fisherman.
“You are given a name and you think that
This is you — but nobody is born with a name.
The name gives you an identity.
You are given a religion –
Your parents impose a certain religion on you
They impose a certain nationality on you
And these things become your identities:
One is a Hindu, an Indian
With a certain name, with a certain caste
And these become definitions but
These are all arbitrary, absolutely artificial.
You are born without them
But we remain befooling ourselves.”
–Osho, No Man is an Island, ch. 8
Yet another example of using Osho’s words as a convenient smokescreen, to hide an inability to make an adequate response on your own behalf.
Do you think you’re so ‘special’ that you have to conceal such details as your age, sex, nationality and experience of ordinary work in the world?
What, I wonder, are you so afraid of, Brian-the-Clone aka Swami R? That providing such details, particularly the last mentioned, might somehow serve to ‘deflate’ your precious oh-so-spiritually-advanced public image (and perhaps the one you have of yourself as well)?
Now do you get the point, ie the difference between a genuinely relevant quote and a mere ‘smokescreen’?
Dear Mr Vivek Raj
Your letter is a beautiful, sincere and humble one, asking questions about Osho and his life and reaching into the profound question as to what is enlightenment and all that !
What I loved most was the recognition of how he has helped you, and how far you have already travelled towards a deep understanding of Life and the Mystery.
That you seek to find answers with people who have also been interested in Osho is a natural one. Where else to start with, other than with those who have also been touched by his teaching?
I was so moved to write that I had to join up to this forum. I was once a follower of Osho and he helped me on the path. However as you hint – there were always questions about the nature of his teaching and even his style and after some years with him, I found other teachers who could answer more directly and with greater precision. This is no fault of Osho, his understanding of Nothing, Space, emptiness , the void, were unique and he helped me as he helped others.
The wonderful truth is that once these simple questions are answered, there is now the question as to how to integrate Nothing into your daily life, in relationships, in work, with man and woman. How to deal with stress, money etc.
As you begin to explore these issues, some of the emphasis that Osho placed on love, laughter, dancing and having a good time , feel rather superficial and it is in these wider issues that many sanyassins have got lost. They are so fixated on loving the Master,and on Osho himself, that they have forgotten how to look inside themselves for the answer. They have become trapped by the mystique that Osho played with.
You, in contrast are looking within and then asking out loud, in this forum for real answers. Such sincerity will bring you the answers you seek.
As to the simple question you asked how he could be ill,or how he could act with such contradictions after enlightenment are great questions.
My understanding, the enlightening of my own mind, leads me to know that there is no continuous, perfect state. Life always tests us, always provides new possibilities to grow and to appreciate Life in all its forms. All that has changed is my attitude to life. Instead of fighting with life, I accept it. I surrender. Was Osho confused about your question?
He seemed to inform others, that the perfect state was final and continuous. Was he lying or did he deceive himself?
The great thing about these questions is that they can only be answered finally by You but it helps enormously to give your self and your ideas to others as you are doing so generously.
Your willingness to ask and to explore with others is a great example to me and should be to others as well.
However I suggest, because you have already visited Osho centres, that the place least likely to discover what you are looking for is there. The people are too lost in the myth of the man. Consciousness is always expanding and in my opinion, you are already way ahead of Osho. That should take nothing away from what he has already taught you and others – it’s just a statement of fact.
Gee whizz!
simond.
If you have moved on from Osho then it is not entirely clear why you are following an Osho website???
Many are angry with Osho for not fulfilling their egos and would relish an opportunity for ‘payback time’.
Maybe it would be practical to Vivek if you could name those other teachers to help him feel where he belongs?
Dear Simond!
What a great person you are, Simond! For me, nobody is greater than the one who could read between the lines and thereby could write such a great reply. I thank you from the core of my heart and also hope wholeheartedly that you would respond to this post as well. And thank you for that also in anticipation.
You said it so beautifully – imho the mother of all contradictions i suppose – that whether the perfect state/purpose is final and continuous (which Osho seems to be teaching all his life – which is meditation and enlightenment) or is it just all topsy-turvy, nothing but chaos, no matter what you will do, it could never be finalized as final and continuous (as we find in our respective lives).
You said that – “All that has changed is my attitude to life. Instead of fighting with life, I accept it. I surrender”. That is what led me to conclude too once. However, as soon as i started to accept and surrender as you said you did, it has all started becoming a lot boring, boring to the extent of suicidal sometimes. (Using such word as ‘suicide’ does not mean that i am stressed or depressed, it just mean i could put my thought more freely without having the burden of what people will think of me).
I would try to put it by an example if i could – for example, when i started surrendering and accepting, people, even within the close circle of my friend and family, maybe later than sooner, started to take advantage of this attitude of mine towards life. They think – consciously or subconsciously – this person (I) initiates to do nothing by his own so let’s tell him to do this or that for us. Since he (I) accepts everything and rejects nothing, he (I) will do, if it is within his capacity, whatever, i/we will tell him (me) to do – whether it is legitimate or not. Since he (I) has surrendered and revolts nothing, he (I) will do whatever i/we will tell him (me) to do. This example may seem to be very simple and dramatic but this is what truly happens though the situations, people and set-up could be different. So if i put it straightforwardly i started to become a ‘toy’ in the hands of my kith and kin.
So as soon as this ‘started-to-become-a-toy’ idea comes to mind, i revolts, and i think now i have to have my purpose, my own goal, i will NOT become a ‘toy’. So what should be the solution? I should have a purpose of my own? And what should be that purpose?
Sometimes this come to my mind that the purpose of life is to become great in whatever you do. A great scientist, a great philosopher, a great humanitarian, a great gambler, a great thief, a great father, a great lover, a great cheater, or a great teacher, or anything but great, sorry, great but anything. Just to become great in anything. (perhaps, that is why 17 years back, when i made my first email id, it was – great_vivek @ yahoo.com
).
So i think my whole energy, concentration, time, and toil and effort of my entire life should be pointed towards that greatness. Einstein was great, Jesus was great too, Osho was great, and thousands upon thousands of people became great throughout the entire history of humankind albeit in varying degree of greatness and fields.
So i start looking closely to these people, and along with all the name and fame and recognition and awards, what is also common among these people, that i find, are the death, the sufferings, the problems, the ups and downs, that they went through that any tom, dick and harry (read ordinary men) goes through. (Yes, i am gravitating towards the same issue as raised by me in the original letter of this post).
So, so much of, in fact my whole life worth of, energy, power, concentration, effort and time i spend on for that greatness, and along with and at the end of that, i will find the same death, ups and downs, and problems though maybe in different way, in different quantity, in different varieties that any ordinary man or woman find along in his or her life. (Different has nothing to do here, because if x is different from y, y is equally different from x. Once a rich man said to a poor man, “huh, you are not as rich as me” and the poor man said to the rich man, “yes, and you are not as poor as me”.
).
But don’t you see the subtle difference, Vivek – people are remembering you, respecting you, following you, adoring you, even after you died, and you will get swarg (heaven). But the problem is how do i know if those who died are actually seeing those adulation and becoming happy about it and got the heaven up there.
So, my thinking is – greatness should come naturally, it should not be forced upon, it should not be planned, it SHOULD BE something that one enjoys all along. If greatness is not natural in you, you should not vouch for it on the first hand itself. So if the greatness is not my naturality, i should surrender myself to whatever naturally come to me. I should accept whatever comes along. Then should i become the toy in the hand of my kith and kin?
Oooops!!!!
ARE YOU SEEING THE CONTRADICTION, SIMOND?
ARE YOU SEEING THE CONTRADICTION, DEAR SANNYASINS??
ARE YOU SEEING THE CONTRADICTION, OSHO??? WHERE ARE YOU, OSHO? I NEED YOU, I NEED THE ANSWERS (I am crying here now).
P.s. : As said by Swami Anand Anubodh, i would indeed be obliged to you if you could tell me that, apart from walking on the path of finding my answers by my own, who were/are the teachers whom you found after moving on from Osho, who could answer more directly and with greater precision.
Thanks you very much once again and may you get what you deserve in your life.
Thank you!
And thanks to all Sannyasins here. No ill will towards anyone. All are great – it’s me who is not getting the answers.
Thank you!
Vivek, as for your apparently tortuous dilemma re ‘surrender’, I suggest that, as for many things in life, ‘the readiness is all’, ie there’s a time for ‘surrender’ and a time not to ‘surrender’.
From what you’ve written today, it’s not appropriate for you to impose anything of the sort on yourself, it’s in fact the sort of attempt your over-diffidence has been drawn to, imagining you’re being ‘spiritual’, rather than the natural process of a healthily functioning young man.
Instead, why not simply use your own common sense, your native good sense?! First things first, walk before you try to run! In other words, there’s no need to be a fool, setting yourself up as a target for others’ stupidity to exploit. One of the wisest things I was told by a master was, to “only be vulnerable to love.”
Re ‘greatness’, well, at your age ambition is a healthy enough trait, but as you yourself have thought, why not forget about trying to be ‘great’ and just do your best in whatever you happen to be doing?
And for work, if at all possible choose something you enjoy (as Osho always advised). Then, with a bit of luck, you’re likely to have something approaching a ‘great’ time. Which will help to positively ‘energetically inform’ the rest of your life, quite apart from any money you earn.
Dear Mr Vivek Raj
Your letter is a beautiful, sincere and humble one, asking questions about Osho and his life and reaching into the profound question as to what is enlightenment and all that !
What I loved most was the recognition of how he has helped you, and how far you have already travelled towards a deep understanding of Life and the Mystery.
That you seek to find answers with people who have also been interested in Osho is a natural one. Where else to start with, other than with those who have also been touched by his teaching?
I was so moved to write that I had to join up to this forum. I was once a follower of Osho and he helped me on the path.
However as you hint – there were always questions about the nature of his teaching and even his style and after some years with him, I found other teachers who could answer more directly and with greater precision. This is no fault of Osho, his understanding of Nothing, Space, emptiness , the void, were unique and he helped me as he helped others.
The wonderful truth is that once these simple questions are answered, there is now the question as to how to integrate Nothing into your daily life, in relationships, in work, with man and woman. How to deal with stress, money etc.
As you begin to explore these issues, some of the emphasis that Osho placed on love, laughter, dancing and having a good time , feel rather superficial and it is in these wider issues that many sanyassins have got lost. They are so fixated on loving the Master,and on Osho himself, that they have forgotten how to look inside themselves for the answer. They have become trapped by the mystique that Osho played with.
You, in contrast are looking within and then asking out loud, in this forum for real answers. Such sincerity will bring you the answers you seek.
As to the simple question you asked how he could be ill,or how he could act with such contradictions after enlightenment are great questions.
My understanding, the enlightening of my own mind, leads me to know that there is no continuous, perfect state. Life always tests us, always provides new possibilities to grow and to appreciate Life in all its forms. All that has changed is my attitude to life. Instead of fighting with life, I accept it. I surrender. Was Osho confused about your question?
He seemed to inform others, that the perfect state was final and continuous. Was he lying or did he deceive himself?
The great thing about these questions is that they can only be answered finally by You but it helps enormously to give your self and your ideas to others as you are doing so generously.
Your willingness to ask and to explore with others is a great example to me and should be to others as well.
However I suggest, because you have already visited Osho centres, that the place least likely to discover what you are looking for is there. The people are too lost in the myth of the man. Consciousness is always expanding and in my opinion, you are already way ahead of Osho. That should take nothing away from what he has already taught you and others – it’s just a statement of fact.
By taking responsibility for the pain in me, I have emptied myself of the problem, now all I see is that they have the problem. Why are they attacking me? Are they afraid ? Are they seeing me as a threat? In the comments page about my letter, I’m accused of being angry with Osho. I know that isn’t true, but do you see such criticism informs me of where the critic comes from ?The letter writer sees me as a threat to the cosy sanyas family, even suggesting I should not be reading this forum, as I no longer love Osho. Now ask yourself, where is the problem, is it in me, or them?
I can imagine your family being disturbed at your love of truth. Your integrity may threaten their fixed way of seeing life. By contacting this forum, by being as open and wild as you are, you are challenging yourself and them. Of course I may be wrong about this, I make no presumption.
To summarise, surrender first to your feelings, let them in. Ask yourself why you feel them? This is best done by allowing them, Try not think it too much. I know it isn’t easy and it helps to have friends, just one or two, with whom you can really explore both your feelings and your ideas with real honesty.
My own experience is that life always provides such friends when the calling is needed. In the same way life always provides the teachers you need when the calling is needed. In your life right now, seek out those people, mix with them as far as possible. Your wife is the most likely person for this. I trust she is with you, she may be the best person to practise your new found knowledge. Ask her. Be vulnerable with her.If she loves you, and you love her, you will be able to truly help each other.
As to masters, etc, when one is required they will also turn up. For me woman has been the great teacher. In surrendering to my own need, my own vulnerability , to my desires, to my Love of her she has and continues to be my teacher. But as I said elsewhere any one can be your teacher.
Good luck and if you wish to correspond further with any questions feel free to do so.
Kind regards
Simon
Dear Vivek Raj,
Thank you for your reply and your further questions. Again you show your sincerity in asking. I hope to answer you to the best of my ability.
First of all, surrender is a deeply misunderstood term. In many ways it is borrowed from the East and as with so many eastern terms, like the word Enlightenment, has been lost in the mists of time and in too many ancient and misunderstood texts. Human beings tend not to think for themselves and are largely satisfied by reading the words of the gurus but exploring them only very half heartedly.
You are not half-hearted, you are sincere. You are honest. As am I.
However, as I used the word ‘surrender’, let’s explore it! In the East it is often understood as a means to accept the words and actions of the master. Osho used it a lot. So did Hitler. If we are to believe Jesus, he asked us to ” to turn the other cheek “, but surrender means much more.
Taking your friends and family as an example, you describe how by being passive you are in effect being taken advantage of. Passiveness is not surrender. If they are telling you what to do, you are not surrendering or even accepting what they say, you are just repressing your self. This will always lead to further abuse. Why? Because no one likes passivity. They unconsciously know that this is imbalanced and they will continue, until you choose to alter your behaviour.
You also suggested that life had become boring because of your practice of surrender. I don’t understand what you mean. Being bored or empty or feeling a lack within your life are not the result of surrendering to life – in my experience. Boredom is a feature of a restless mind. If you are up and happy one day, so you find unhappiness and boredom the next. Explain what you mean please.
If you are being passive and not proactive with your feelings, you will always feel frustrated. Surrendering, on the other hand is a very proactive state. First ask yourself, are their criticisms and complaints about you true? Does it hurt? Is it painful? Are you afraid or angry? If any, or all of these feelings are felt then what they are saying has some truth in it. I am learning to recognise that any fear, anger, or reaction inside me is my responsibility. The people ‘doing’ this to me are mere reflections of my unconscious. Is that right? Does that make sense to you?
Allow the feelings inside you. Embrace them. Painful as it may be. As you do, you will find a new energy arise within you. And you can, and will, change your behaviour and your attitude.
The final and ongoing test of enlightenment, and in this case surrender is to see that in all areas of your life, you are meeting your true teachers. In every situation, and with all people, they are the arbiters. If you feel any reaction to them, any pain at all, then you have something to learn. It is sublime.
As I indicated, surrender is not passive. It is proactive. First of all, there is the acceptance of the situation, your feelings and the new found knowledge that you are responsible for how you feel. You described yourself as toy and from that I infer that you are angry. This is the first stage of looking within and surrendering. But anger is always only the first layer of the onion. Behind anger is fear, anxiety, vulnerability. Here lies the solution. Not in any ideas of being “great”, important and famous. These are shallow reactions to the disturbances within you. You are already great, you are already perfect within, there is no substitute for this space.
Next what to do with this knowledge? Go out and act from it. See that if someone is abusing you, taking advantage of you, that they too are in pain. They may not know it, so you, as the creator, have the choice as to how, and where you can help them.
My experience is that if I talk only from my understanding, with a real degree of humility , I am able to change the situation, at least for me. If someone is taking advantage of me, bullying me, attacking me, then I have to surrender to the problem and seek inside for the solution. From here I talk and engage and listen and together we solve the issue.
By taking responsibility for the pain in me, I have emptied myself of the problem, now all I see is that they have the problem. Why are they attacking me? Are they afraid ? Are they seeing me as a threat? In the comments page about my letter, I’m accused of being angry with Osho. I know that isn’t true, but do you see such criticism informs me of where the critic comes from ?The letter writer sees me as a threat to the cosy sanyas family, even suggesting I should not be reading this forum, as I no longer love Osho. Now ask yourself, where is the problem, is it in me, or them?
I can imagine your family being disturbed at your love of truth. Your integrity may threaten their fixed way of seeing life. By contacting this forum, by being as open and wild as you are, you are challenging yourself and them. Of course I may be wrong about this, I make no presumption.
To summarise, surrender first to your feelings, let them in. Ask yourself why you feel them? This is best done by allowing them, Try not think it too much. I know it isn’t easy and it helps to have friends, just one or two, with whom you can really explore both your feelings and your ideas with real honesty.
My own experience is that life always provides such friends when the calling is needed. In the same way life always provides the teachers you need when the calling is needed. In your life right now, seek out those people, mix with them as far as possible. Your wife is the most likely person for this. I trust she is with you, she may be the best person to practise your new found knowledge. Ask her. Be vulnerable with her.If she loves you, and you love her, you will be able to truly help each other.
As to masters, etc, when one is required they will also turn up. For me woman has been the great teacher. In surrendering to my own need, my own vulnerability, to my desires, to my Love of her she has and continues to be my teacher. But as I said elsewhere any one can be your teacher.
Good luck and if you wish to correspond further with any questions feel free to do so.
Kind regards,
Simon
Are you a proctologist?
On behalf of the congregation at St. Sannyas` church, I would like to extend a warm welcome and thank-you to the Very Reverend Simon of the Church of Latter-Day Barry Longers for his lovely sermon.
He does rather sound like BL, doesn’t he?
Once again, I’m afraid I’m put off by such apparent ‘copying’ (however unconscious), even if, as in this case, it contains a lot of good sense.
Frank, as usual you understand nothing.
Zilch.
Nada.
Tipota.
Rien.
Rien de rien…zut alors comme toujours.
Which surely leads to a state of ‘nah worries.’
`Allo, allo, mon vieux tofu rosbif existentialiste!
Tu as raison, bien sur, mais…
nothing is more real than nothing.
No, Arpana, he’s just a naughty boy….
Why would you think that ?
Dear Simon!
Thanks again for your reply and further clarity.
First of all, a couple of apologies:
I am sorry responding late to your replies, partially because of lack of time, but mainly because it takes time for me to gather my thoughts and put it in words which could make some sense.
Second, though I know that baseless criticism may not matter to you, however, I would still think that I should say sorry to you because some of the people here are judging you or making fun of your responses you made, due to me.
And lastly, I am sorry for writing long posts. I am a very terrible writer, nor is English my first language. Therefore, if it appears to me that I am putting too many words to put forward a point of mine, apologies if this is the case. Also, if anything is not clear from my writing, it must be that I have not written it properly; sorry for that as well.
—-
You said that “allow the feelings inside you”. You explained the meaning of ‘surrender’ and explained that an active surrender is different from passive surrender. You suggested that one should surrender proactively, not repressively. I thank you for these lines, as I feel connected to them while understanding them.
However, then what I think is what if I doubt the feelings which occur inside me? Challenge what the heart says. Or, just become largely undecided which side of the feeling or heart is better to pursue. I would like to cite two examples, one simple from day-to-day life, and another, a broad one – together they may let me put my thoughts more clearly perhaps.
I have a 4+ year old kid. I give a better part of my energy, my time, my attention to him, not only because i am attached, loving, and responsible to him as a father, but also I have read and feel too that we can learn many things from children – their whys and whats at everything, their rawness, their newness in seeing the world – these all teach us many good things. Additionally, I also think that a fatherly love, care, guidance, and support throughout his life till he becomes a self-reliant man may provide him the base to be a better human being in the world than he become on his own.
But many a time I question that pursuit of mine when I read articles such as nature vs. nurture, and destiny & karma etc. What if it is already written what he is destined to be and will not make a difference whether I provide him extra care or average care? What if subconsciously I am wanting him to be a great human being on one hand, but on the other hand I also wonder if I devote those extra time tp me myself in learning about life, meditation, mind, clarity of thoughts, music, my passions etc., while rearing him averagely, will make me better in long run, which eventually will make me rear him with more clarity about life among other things in later part of his life e.g., in his teen age?
Are you seeing the contradiction here?
In short, how do I know if my passion is to learn music, or to understand life, or to rear my child great, or all, or none? My feelings, my heart is not giving me answer to this question no matter how hard I am trying.
Now, let me come to the second example:
Suppose there is a person (a job-holder or a shopkeeper) who routinely honestly does his duties: Gets ready in the morning, goes to his office or shop, struggles, earns money, raises his family, keeps aside some money for future, buys a home, be happy and even sad sometimes, enjoys the festivals and ceremonies and sobs on the death of his near & dear ones, then he himself gets retired from the job in his sixties, then gets rest at home, then plays and enjoys with his grandchildren, does some charity work, participates in some societies’ functions, and one day dies.
What is wrong in this life? I think there is nothing wrong in this life: He was born, he played, he studied, he earned, he laughed, he became sad, he got angry, he became happy, he retired, he became tired, he became refreshed, he got bored, he travelled, he played with his (grand)kids, and he died, in no particular order (except the first and the last one).
There is nothing wrong in this. After all, this has been what happening since time immemorial with pretty much every sentient being. People ‘surrender’ to this set-up. After all, what is else to do if you will not do this?
The problem arises when one starts thinking about this set-up, this routine, this status-quo from a point of view of a distant spectator, an alien, if I may say so. It starts to become all confusing, superficial, when my heart starts questioning this set-up.
Why does my heart question this set-up? My heart questions this set-up because it has capacity/ability to do so. Had I been born as an animal, which seems to have no such questioning ability, as they just routinely eat-drink-and-be-merry, I would have been in tandem with my life. However, since my heart/mind has capacity to question this, it keeps questioning, and then it all becomes topsy-turvy. What is our goal, what is our purpose? Is the purpose of life a life of purpose? Or, is the purpose of life is find the purpose of life?
—-
These are just the two examples of contradictions I face in my life. There are many more.
You asked me why the life sometimes become boring, empty for me? This is largely because of above contradictions. When I do not find neither this nor that way sure-shot, it gives all kind of confusion, frustration, which may translate to boredom, emptiness, among other things.
I hope I have put my thought clearly.
Once again, thank you for your response and also for bearing with me. I will look forward to your reply.
Thank you very much!
Dear Vivek Raj,
I am happy to respond to your letter. I wonder, however, if the editors of Sannyas News feel it is appropriate for this correspondence to be aired further? If they are, I’m happy to contribute publicly. But I recognise that the web site is a news site and each article has a shelf life. If you are happy to allow them to give me your email address, I will write to you there.
Thank you, Sannyas News, for allowing me to contribute at all.
Kind regards.
Dear Simon!
Hope everything is good at your end.
What a relief after getting a reply after 5 days of lull!
But what a disappointment to hear that there is something that led you to think that the editors of Sannyas News may not allow it to be discussed further. I wonder if that is the case, why they posted my letter here in the first place; after all, my letter was not a news at all?
I don’t know whether this assumption of yours stem from some hint that you got from some of the people here or editors of this site, or it is purely of your own assumption. I also don’t know whether this assumption of yours (if you assumed this on your own) stemmed from the fact that you may have got bored from this entire discussion now or you are genuinely worried that any further post on this matter may get the entire discussion locked, banned, or removed by the site runners.
My intent is – this discussion should be left to be as going on as it is going on now i.e. on its own destiny. If this discussion is bound to be discussed further it will become longer and richer with inputs from people of Sannyas and Osho world, or if it is bound to be not discussed further, still at least it will remain here lying as a discussion (like other discussions on this site are) to be read by future log-iners, readers, visitors, or seekers, or maybe even by more Sannyasins who have better or more to put to this discussion or at least have a good laugh on this.
I am not saying this because i have any problem in sharing my email id, i am also not saying this because i have any hidden or subconscious agenda to make a show-off of any kind or anything. I just believe that these are some topics which are more likely to be have a clarity if it is not stagnated within close premises of one-to-one conversation but to be put in an appropriate forums such as this site is. Moreover, it may be useful for an asker like me in future who chanced upon to come across this site and this discussion wondering in this World Wide Web like i do.
Therefore I got a bit disappointed with you post, sorry. However, I will still not leave any chance to go further on this even if it is one-to-one. Moreover, I could not disappoint you if you have asked something from me which I think I could give as little as my email id.
My email id is – vivek.raj@@languageaide.com (please remove one @ symbol from the email which I put deliberately to avoid spamming).
Thank you and thank you everyone (excluding none) for putting up your valuable opinions, time, and efforts on this discussion and also thank you very much for bearing such a confused, bewildered, and foolish soul like me.
May everyone get what he or she deserves in life!
Thanks a lot!
Vivek
Dear Vivek Raj,
Thanks for being my teacher again and showing me that I need to be more open like you.
It is a delight to hear from you and I’m only too happy to continue your discussion.
I will reply to your previous post soon.
Kind regards,
Simond
Dear Vivek Raj,
First of all, thanks again for your post and your questions.
Regarding doubt:
You indicated that when you look inside you are sometimes faced with more than one possibility or many possibilities and you referred to doubting which is the “correct” one.
Great question. Doubt is a deep part of the mind.
In moments of indecision and doubt: Wait. Wait again. Wait still further. And then act. It doesn’t really matter how long. If you act and it later feels like a mistake, then you act again. Action purifies and shows you the way forward again. But as you know, when there is real trouble, a fire, for example, you don’t think about what to do, you act!
You give a great example about your child. And you worry that if you give too much attention to your child’s needs that you aren’t able to follow your natural pursuits. Great questions again.
You wonder about nature vs nurture debates and karma and destiny. These are largely intellectual debates and no one can offer you certainty in such a debate.
If your child needs to eat or sleep, where is the debate? The child must eat. Action purifies, because action is living in the moment. If you need to take your child to school, where is the real debate? You must act.
I’m sure you are too intelligent to know that your actions are not pre-ordained and that it is all destined, or to seriously think that it makes no difference to a child what you do as a parent. Such ideas are the total misunderstanding of what karma is and may be prevalent in the ignorant masses but have no place in any serious discussion. Of course it matters how you act as a father. You can only do your best. And I’m sure you are doing your best.
As a parent you have your duty to the child, to show him, to teach him and to guide him. Your guidance must be based on what you know about life, you have a real wisdom and it is never too early to speak to your child of Love and Truth. Experiment with ways to show him or her. I have found as a parent that I have made so-called mistakes, but you learn and it is always working out as it should.
May I suggest that you are indulging in doubt about whether you should be focusing more on meditation and music and other ideas about passion. We all live with doubt, but you can do more to lessen its effects by being true to the moment. If you wish to learn music, then follow your passion, do it and stop worrying. If it means you spend less time with your child, then so be it. Action purifies. You won’t have time to worry if you act!
The second example that you provide me details the story of someone who lives like normal people, lives and dies as so many do. You are worried by this set-up. Perhaps because it feels so meaningless. You are one of the few to question everything . Like me. And in doing so, you invite moments of great despair at the meaninglessness of life. As we question and doubt, so you are looking into the very real meaninglessness of it all. Many have reached this point. It may be the reason you started to read Osho, to seek answers to these great questions as to the purpose of life.
However, at one moment life feels meaningless in a negative sense and in another the meaninglessness and emptiness can feel positive. Do you recognise this? It all depends on your attitude. Where does the change in attitude come from? For me, it comes back to surrendering and accepting the meaninglessness or the emptiness. Osho was a great one for observing nature. Birds and so on. Do birds worry or think? Do they suffer like we do? He would draw our attention to their acceptance and how they expressed “living in the moment”. They don’t worry about emptiness. Nor do we need to. Surrender to the deeper truth of the meaningless or emptiness and ones attitude has changed.
The mind will always doubt and fear, but you express great joy at life. Focus on the good. Focus on what needs to be done. Don’t try and change what can’t be changed. The world cannot be changed but you are changing, you are growing. Don’t doubt!
@Sajjad
As far as I know, SN is a legacy of Pari or Sam and is a site about Osho which is not boring and is very funny. SN smells of Osho.
Just look at Vivek Raj letter and the responses. People in SN are trying to help him but maybe not in your way, it is in their own way.
Don’t you like Lokesh? Well, he is a rascal and a liar but he learned from the very source.
Have you never laughed loudly with Frank or Anand Yogi? If not, you have a problem, my friend.
I don’t know who is the boss in SN or the moderators, if they are male or not, and why does it matter? I don’t understand you, Sajjad. What is really the problem? It is here in SN where I have great laughs, learn a lot and feel at home.
Cheers.
I read most of this string. It seems that you self-describe as rather diffident, Vivek. Not at home when you reached to one of the Osho centres in Delhi.
When I was in my mid-twenties I too can remember passing by on the other side once when I was just inside an Osho centre in Islington…so I know the feeling from all those years ago.
I combated my early shyness and lack of confidence fairly soon after that by simply ‘going to meditation’ and bypassing all the social stuff for a number of times. After about half a dozen times I began to relate, and people began to relate to me. They recognised someone who was sincere in trying to get into meditation, and within less than a year I began to feel the people I met were a kind of new family.
Anyway, worked for me, and suggest you give it a try if there is a centre convenient to your home. Frankly, I don’t think it matters if it is Keerti-influenced, Neelam-influenced or the Pune Resort. Just be a monk for a few weeks with your meditation, and then if sincere, the social side will unfold of itself.
simond.
Do your other teachers (who do not seem to have names) know that you have returned to Osho?