Osho first started out as our Teacher, and then he became our Master, but he finished the journey as our Friend - Bodhi Vartan
Sannyasnews has been reminded of this contrary answer to Vivek, in relationship to Vartan’s earlier contribution…
BELOVED OSHO,
FOR SOME TIME NOW YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT YOU ARE OUR FRIEND AND WE ARE FRIENDS. I’M HAVING DIFFICULTY IN TRULY GETTING IT. OSHO, TO ME YOU ARE MY MOST BELOVED MASTER. PLEASE SHOW ME WHERE I AM MISSING.
The question is from Vivek. I can understand her difficulty.
The same will be the difficulty of all those who have come close to me, loved me, received me in their hearts as a Master.
I have been saying that I am your friend, and you are my friend for a very strange reason that may not be obvious to you. There was another (complementary) question from Milarepa — why are a few sannyasins feeling very resentful towards you, angry with you?
This (latter) is an historical thing, amongst disciples there are always a few who are accidental. The wind was blowing this way and they arrived. They saw a tremendous energy in the disciples, and they became greedy. But it was not a search for truth, it was not a search for love; it was simple greed. They also wanted to be spiritually powerful. They became sannyasins, they became disciples, but the distance between me and them remained the same. They could never become my intimate people. They could never become my people. Even though they were with me, deep down they were resentful, angry. I wanted them to drop their resentfulness, to drop their anger. It was not my problem, it was their problem, and I wanted to help them in every possible way.
It was for this simple reason that I had said, “I am your friend, you are my friend.” Those who were not really with me were immensely happy that now their status and my status was the same. And amongst these were people that you would never have imagined… Just the other day I had a message from a sannyasin that Teertha (the well known Poona one therapist) is saying to people that my state and his state are now the same — we are friends. For this he was hanging around for fifteen years! Similarly Rajen (another well known Poona one therapist) is currently saying to people, “Now I am no longer a disciple but a friend, and I have the same status.”
These were the people that I wanted to get rid of as peacefully, as lovingly as possible. But those who had loved me felt hurt — because they have loved me as a disciple, and to be a disciple is something so valuable that who cares to be a friend?
So I can understand Vivek’s difficulty. She has been for sixteen years with me. When she came she was only twenty years old; now she is thirty-six, almost twice the age. And in all these sixteen years, day in, day out, she has been taking care of me with as much love as possible, with a deep devotion. It is difficult for her to think of herself as being a friend. It would not be a gain to her, it would be a loss. Those who have understood the joy and the celebration of being a disciple, of being in love with a master, will all feel the same: that to be a friend is nothing compared to it; everything is lost. To be a friend becomes formal.
So those who were really with me have been shaken, hurt, and those who were not really with me have been tremendously happy. Just by me calling you my friend, you do not achieve the state in which I am. If it was so easy I would have called the whole world my friend, and they all would have come to the same state.
But, Vivek, you need not be worried about it. Those who love me, those who know me, know perfectly well that I am their master, and they have travelled a long way with me, in devotion and love. And of course, it is impossible for them at any moment — even if they become enlightened — to call me a friend. That will be simply ungratefulness.
As far as reality is concerned, those who were real disciples are still disciples — even if they become enlightened, they will not lose their disciplehood. In fact, they have attained to the ultimate of disciplehood. Their gratitude and their love towards the master is not less but more than ever.
Beyond Psychology, Ch 24, Q 1
I personally think that this doesn’t reveal how ‘wonderful’ he was all along, because even that becomes a style of reverence …whatever you wish to pedestalise…you know he just re-rationalised, according to strategic purpose.He was deeply institutionally political,protective of sannyas without a word against itself being said, otherwise clones would not have been able to form. He says this, above, because he can never be wrong, because he doesn’t exist anymore to take the can. So he just has only existential sublimation into which all experience is put into the blender.Look what a mess, yes but i’m alive, ho ho…hooray.Spiritual lesson number 1.
We on the other hand have more mortal reference points where the rigging starts to creek. If you look back on even crap relatings say from ten years ago, will the detail matter much ?No? We have moved on. How much less does it matter to neurons that have been fused in self abandoning buzzy realization, whether commune building had poor role modelling , or systematic cloning. The main thing was to get as much experience to be ‘detached’ from as possible.In but not of it.It’s a jugglers trick.Try to figure it out too much and the balls fall on your head.
In re-branding constantly he did what life demands.. change . Neither sinner nor saint. Neither friend nor foe, just someone who didn’t need for anyone else’s response anymore to be profoundly content. And that’s why we wanted to be like that too. To not care less about here ,without malice or paradise , on a one way journey.. how liberating. Still, a nice vibe was had by all. Better than going to the office to get one’s kicks.
‘These were the people that I wanted to get rid of as peacefully, as lovingly as possible.’
Whatever you think Osho was truly a master of doublethink.
Back in the day Teertha and the likes of Rajen swanned about the ashram like demi-gods. Hardly surprising when taking into account the amount of energy and attention Osho gave the top therapists, most especially Teertha. That sort of thing would have went to anyone’s head. It is also wise to take into account that these people were very important and useful at the time in relation to Osho’s grand plan. The greatest therapy centre in the world etc. Times changed and the once exalted position held by the therapists was taken by the new breed like Sheela. I don’t go for Osho’s doublethink in relation to this matter. It is basically politics. Of course, politics was a dirty word round Osho and he had to make it look somehow spiritual and thus he showed the believers he was a compassionate one.
Keeping on the same tack I’ll mention something I learned around Poonjaji. Unlike Osho, he was not a man who would allow someone to sit around for 15 years wasteing his and their time. A couple of times I saw him sense someone being on an ego trip. He asked them, ‘Who invited you here? No one. If you don’t appreciate what is to be learned here, get out!’
I enjoyed that quality about Papaji. No pussyfooting around and straight to the point. I found him to be a very honest man with no need to justify his actions by using words to make himself look like the good guy. Most refreshing and highly educational.
Not the lead article but Lokesh´s post is worth commenting. It is all tooty fruity!
I don´t like Vaniella ice, i like tooty fruity.
I don´t like Latte Machiatto, i like tooty fruity…
I don´t like real fruits, i like Haribo tooty fruity!
My god, what Punja ji was doing is being done by all the city gurus around India. It is another fact, many of them have seen white skin only on the television.
Osho wanted to over haul the whole religious business. It was too ambitious a project. It succeeed or not is another matter but i woulld surely say, it is worthful to die on the treacherous mounatanious tracks than sitting in a shop making tooty fruites!
If we agree or disagree with any of the posts or article quote, what difference does it make to our own capacity, alignment, attunement, or substance with regards to oshoness.
None, diddly squat. If our ability was so fickle as to rely on our own or others’ opinions or conclusions, essentialness wouldn’t have a chance. The surprising thing is that it and us doesn’t need for ‘facts’ to be true either way, for us to be suffused in it and ourselves and act with whatever opinion appears appropriate or relevant.As we always end up here facing a reality and acting accordingly.There is no scoreboard.
however punani has a different quantum value. My gf is my rock, and luckily she is suffused with all the intelligence of one. Although when the earth moves, she hollers. Can rocks do that ?
Beyond psychology? I wonder if he would have said the same to Vivek if he knew that she was going to top herself in a couple of years time …
I also heard him on an occasion say that he was our friend but we were not his friends or words to that effect. Master of twist-speak indeed.
I was more comfortable with him being a Teacher, as the term “Master” doesn’t translate well into my language. Sounds more like “master and slave” than a spiritual guide. Even these days he still teaches me things or reminds me about things I forgot. One can always have a dead Teacher … but how does “a dead Master” translate/operate?
Have never experienced him as dead in that sense. Never got caught up with him as a physical presence. On the occasions I sat in front of him didn’t have my glasses on, as someone had told me on the way in to Darshan they were a barrier, and I am astigmatic and short visioned (And I listened. ) so couldn’t see him properly.
Have internalized him I guess, and as I evolve, in part because of continuing contact with him through discourses, which is what the relationship has been about for me almost entirely, his internalized presence deepens, and my sense of connection remains.
He is both a fluid and changing presence inside. A constant and continuing source of inspiration, encouragement, solidness and my trust in his intention remains constant.
‘Never got caught up with him as a physical presence.’
Pity, he was a wonderful man to meet. face to face, so to speak.
‘and as I evolve’ ‘Scuse me. Could you tell us more about this ‘I’ and what it is evolving into and from whence it came?
Lokesh says:
>> ‘and as I evolve’ ‘Scuse me. Could you tell us more about this ‘I’ and what it is evolving into and from whence it came?
He is probably aiming for thine lofty and breezy heights.
You are avoiding the questions and instead posting a pretty uninspiring bit of ho- hummery, which doesn’t say much for your evolutionon on a communication level. It does not surprise me in the least. Makes me think that Osho was right when he said its unfair to the monkeys to say that man evolved out of them. Do ou have a special thing about bananas?
The question wasn’t posed to me. I am not an evolutionist. I am a creationist (remember?). I popped out of the ground. It’s up to Arpy to tell us about the evolution.
Oh dear things are going from bad to worse.
I am providing a user friendly guide of handy tips for getting through the day .
Tip 1. Switch on the morning kettle as a cave man just getting up.
Tip 2 Drink tea as a creationist enjoying having just awoken into life.
Tip 3.Face the rest of the day as an alzheimerist looking at life without a who or a why.
Osho is a master, friend, teacher, massiah, motivational writer or simply a dead man walking depends entirely upon the leadership status.
The living person on te top of hirachy can decide, it is always so, just like the way water flows from top to bottom.
Dilemma is three eyed sannyasins like vartan will find it difficult to accept.
We don´t have organisation, we are not religion we are not politicians, we are not followers, we are just used coke cup lying on the top of garbage bin at Oxford Street after the Saturday night fever!
PS- the link can show how leaders can modify, purify or toxify the flow of river..
http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/pope-francis-washes-women-s-feet-in-break-with-church-law-347904?pfrom=home-lateststories
>> Osho first started out as our Teacher, and then he became our Master, but he finished the journey as our Friend – Bodhi Vartan
Even tho I did say that in the ‘Friendship’ thread … I went to bed last night with something not feeling right … he was something much more to me than a mere Teacher or even a Friend …
Back in 19 September, 2012 at 8:01 pm …
The Individual and the Collective, Part XXIV (Meanwhile, Back at the Ranch)
http://sannyasnews.org/now/archives/2209
I said: “So the model went from Teacher (Acharya), to Master (Guru), to Fellow Traveler (Friend). In fact the model was always ‘Lover’, with all the dynamics, that type of relationship will arouse and invoke. …
Now that ‘The Lover’ is dead, if the old models no longer apply, then some new models need to be created and played with. The options are limitless.”
That’s better! Let’s go look for some new models …
Your thread on Friendship was very welcome Vartan, and stands as they say unto itself. Friendship amongst sannyasins was a great thing, and maybe still is, it had a special quality and alchemy mixed though, and this seems to be the contentious part, by a Master…!
The question of what role a guru, therapist, life coach, lover plays in one’s life is a different subject area.
Now I am by way of a senior citizen who can still run a 100 yards in 12 seconds ….. yes both in and out of sannyas I suppose I have a relationship with a few people of what they would call if asked, “wise old advisor” though I never have encouraged it. But if people come to me in that way, well maybe it would lack compassion to show them the door ?
It is my forecast, and i am sure coming generations will treat me like Nostradamus;
“Mother earth´s next great child who will revolutionise the world of Spirituality will be conceived and born on IKEA bed!”
Shambles,
that’s the White Goods Brotherhood .. (in UK white goods are washing machines , cookers, fridges etc…..)
actually I always thought IKEA was in charge of designing sannyasin bedrooms and meditation centre interiors…. the bland leading the bland…
as long as you walk around in a reverential hush, talking incomprehensibly, about things that are incomprehensible, for that which will professionally improve your life if only you could afford the wardrobe (page 45 Nincompoopsvallettbongg) or weekend training (Page22 Soft Cushions with Guru trimmings) with a professional deep seeker leader , then welcome to OSHITEA.
But Shantam what do you care about Osho as long as LIDL is open for your easter lamb burger, you can claim you are the representative of Osho’s unfulfilled dream from the privacy of your own microwave cum computer,….. until Parmartha retires us all from our regular religious meetings here drinking virtualitea at the Oshitea Kafesmorgasbord Shoppe
I don’t know about coming generations, Shantam, but as far as this generation is concerned I’m quite sure that most will remember you as Nostrabumpotus.
“Osho first started out as our Teacher, and then he became our Master, but he finished the journey as our Friend – Bodhi Vartan”
I think the lesson is don’t cling to the words! If one continues listening to everything Osho has said or people said about Osho one would go nuts! Osho’s effort was to push us in/into abyss/into unkown and know for oneself! Free from words. i.e. Mind! Hence all this talking is irrelevant. One will only know Osho through their own enlightenment. That’s my feeling.
What Osho is for you can only come from within. For me any word (master or a friend) would do because what he actually is cannot be described by language and every word is poor! It is not expressible!
And by the way the above expression is also not true. If only all sannaysins felt Osho as their Master and a true friend we would have him flourish!
Lokesh, I respect your love and gratefulness for Poonjaji but to compare him with Osho is not possible and not helpful.
Chetna, just for the record. When I first met Papaji one of the first things I cut through was drawing comparisons between him and Osho. There was simply no need for it.
You say, ‘Lokesh, I respect your love and gratefulness for Poonjaji but to compare him with Osho is not possible and not helpful.’ Well it sounds like you are saying the correct thing, yet it also manages to come across as patronizing. Not helpful? Helpful or not helpful for whom exactly?
When I read your comment what strikes me is how grateful I feel not to experience the need for the invisible man to be a living presence in my life, because it’s childish nonsense.
It’s Semana Santa down here in Spain and we have people running around here dressed up like it’s a Klan gathering. Jesus is carrying his cross through the streets with a crown of thorns on his head. The Catholic sannyasins continue to carry ideas such as this in their heads, ‘If only all sannaysins felt Osho as their Master and a true friend we would have him flourish!’ I don’t see the need for Osho to flourish any more than he is already doing because the legacy he left behind is a mixed one. On one hand we have the brilliant meditations and discourses he left behind, on the other we have a stark lesson in what can happen to people who become overly involved with a charasmatic authoratarian figure who, amongst other serious errors in character assessment, allowed mentally disturbed people to take control of an organization he founded and then carried out a series of crimes that seriously injured people, who just so happened to get in the way of their meglomaniacal plans. Not all of Osho’s plans were good ones, in fact some were terrible. The most easy for me to recall is the mass steralization programme in the late seventies….pure madness. By now that story has been watered down to the point that sannyasins had a choice in the matter, but back in the day it was not so democratic. People were being pushed towards making the decision to get sterallized and if you didn’t guilt, the most useless of human emotions according to Osho, was used by the bucketload. I must say that the Catholic sannyasin approach to such matters is abhorrent to me. Major mistakes were made and if the lessons were not learned that makes it even worse.
So, Chetna, you can dream your dream of Osho being a living presence in your life. That is your freedom. In my case I prefer to see that living presence in everything, but without the need to give it name or form. That presence cannot flourish any more than it is already, because it is everywhere and in everything. Osho was one of that presence’s multifarious forms, just like you and I. Forms come and go, the presence is eternal. Osho was a man who helped reveal that presence. Why the need for worshipping a finger pointing at the moon? Why not simply look to where the finger is pointing and be done with it? I’ll tell you why. People are afraid of what is beng revealed. They feel much more secure when they costruct a cosy wee church with an alter of their choice to worshp at. That way they won’t have to change and experience the discomfort and insecurity, which is the unavoidable byproduct that accompanies major change. It is all very well reading books with inspiring titles like ‘Flight of the Alone to te Alone’, living it requires guts.
Lokesh says:
>> It is all very well reading books with inspiring titles like ‘Flight of the Alone to te Alone’, living it requires guts.
And how many alones have you been flying-to recently master Lokesh?
I followed Osho’s advice and embraced my aloneness a long time back. Coupled with that I went through a few things that illustrated to me that embracing ones intrinsic aloneness is the only way to go.
Apart from that I don’t really believe that I actually exist in any substantial way. You appear, do your dance and then disappear. That is cool with me. I love life but at times tire of being somebody. So ultimately there is no flight of the alone to the alone because thae isn’t anyone to do the flying.
Lokesh says:
>> I followed Osho’s advice and embraced my aloneness a long time back.
The alone is good but sometimes I like to be in the audience and sometimes I like to be in the play.
In spiritual terms ‘alone’ is when the stage-actors are watching the audience. (hehe)
Alone means many things to me. I often feel most alone when surrounded by crowds of people. It also to do with realizng that another cannot fulfil you something only you can do etc. When your alone you ain’t nothing but alone. Best not to think about it too much and just get on with your aloneness and enjoy it. Afteral,l the idea that one is alone in any individual sense is but a dream.
Parmartha is currently running to catch up with you Lokesh…..he’ll be there in a second…
he learnt his technique doing the marathons at Veeresh’s Humaninsanoisity…..though as he is 107 we will have to talk a bit slower and louder…
” Yes Parmartha Love, we are all friends,… now then….
L..Ok..E.sh said… that we’ve g..o..t finGERS instead .. of s..ppp.ooons.. dear .. ye..s dear that’s right… .. and you should carry on using yo..our..s to st.. ir.. thinGS UP W..ITH…., how’s the matron been this week.? Well,it’s time now to go off to the staring window for a good dollop of where am I , and where are my slippers ?
I used to run an online magazine…..or was it the marathon… can’t remember….
Parmartha is currently running to catch up with you Lokesh…..he’ll be there in a second…
Too late, I’m already gone.
Quote for today.’You can see the stars and still not see the light (that’s right.).
Who said that?
james turrell ?
http://www.oocities.org/christophermulrooney/criteria/id152.html
see the light in the star of your I’s
https://www.google.ch/search?q=james+turrell&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=rARXUdDeF6XH7AawnYDYBQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=667#imgrc=TzlgZWoreRs9bM%3A%3BjohnVmj2VxrXMM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fintoform.files.wordpress.com%252F2011%252F05%252Fjames-turrell-ganzfeld.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fnicolaandrews.tumblr.com%252Fpost%252F11003415303%252Fjames-turrell-ganzfield%3B620%3B413
Hi Chetna!
You say that Lokesh is wise! I don’t know about that. However, whatever else you think about him, he is a realist. You would do well to take on board what he says!
Osho was an inspired and innovative teacher of meditation practice who came with a whole load of unwanted baggage besides – just go to Pune and take a look at the special ‘friends’ he has left behind to ‘flourish’ in the running of the place. I guess if you like control-freaks, bullies, half-baked fools and reject therapists, then it aint a bad place to be. These are all part of Osho’s legacy and doing. However, if you still feel the need to cling to some kind of hero figure, then it’s your choice. But be careful it can be dangerous – Adolf Hitler was considered to be enlightened, have great presence and charisma by his followers.
Try to let go of your spiritual teddy-bear if you can – it aint healthy to cling to!
Lots of love,
Ashok
Friendship is absolutely human. It has something for which there is no inbuilt mechanism in your biology; it is nonbiological. It has a spiritual dimension. (Osho)
precisely Watson Vartan…spot on….
have you been inhabited by that discarnate super sleuth again…..?
Let us put aside the deceased masters or teachers for a while; what is the status of present day people in the field; Echart Tolle, Mauji, Deepak Chopra, and as the name says, Sadhguru from South India..
Are these gentlemen teachers, masters or friends?
For me, they can be anything to anybody, i don´t need them therefore they are as good as Kim Kardishian in my daily dose of daily mail, for others they can play as relevant role as Osho is in my life..
Shantam, you say. ‘as relevant role as Osho is in my life..’ Could you please elucidate a little on that. What relevant role is Osho playing in your life. I’d genuinely like to hear about that.
Shantam says:
“For me, they can be anything to anybody, i don´t need them therefore they are as good as Kim Kardishian in my daily dose of daily mail….”
SD:
If that’s so, Shantam, then what are you doing suggesting a discussion about them?
Wouldn’t that be a complete and utter waste of time for you, given your professed ‘one-pointedness’?
‘Sannyas’ is enough for you, right? (Your response to Lokesh’s question should be revealing)….
shantam prem says:
>> Are these gentlemen teachers, masters or friends?
Let your heart decide. Osho had a complete package but you are free to look everything else that “takes your attention”. It’s all a matter of “attention” and where you wish to put it.
The simple answer to your question re. the status of Tolle, Chopra et al – is BUSINESSMEN – who normally I think, want you to consider them as your friends ………
the fact remains we need /needed a Master & he needs /needed us .
chetna nice post .
i guess patronising in any form is patronising , its funny how one cant see one’s own patronising !
Parmartha hats off to you , for continuing with this site !
Chetna and Kavita , thanks for the Pussy Rioting….we need more girls to even the numbers here…
Shantam will be doing the sniffing at the discourse check in, and I’ll be checking the bazongas and chu chu’s for any signs of unwanted hairassment of the ma’s.
Ps either of you visited Brazil recently ?
no i visited pirangut recently !
oh really.. what’s it like down there ?
I hear they are developing the virgin bush for go getters…
its amazing how much you can get hold of , if you get in early…
as they say.. a hand in the bird is worth two on the bush
prem martyn says:
>> Chetna and Kavita , thanks for the Pussy Rioting….we need more girls to even the numbers here…
You might have to start talking about issues that women are interested in …
Go on, see how you do?
or ladies ….just go here …..
try anais… she’e a great drink ….
http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/7190.Ana_s_Nin
‘funny how one cant see one’s own patronising ‘
Yes it is, isn’t it?
Is anything else coming off ?.. i’m down to my underpants .. and Shantam is up to his armpits…..
There’s nothing like reading SN in the buff… that way you get the naked truth…
ps if Maneeshajames is still looking for a shared home in London, its probably because all her post is going to gamil and not gmail.com…..I always loved awareness and dyslectic proof reading… it helps everyone to go yin and look insnide….check the commutiny nuthouse bored above…
Lokesh, interestingly I do not even disagree with many things you say and I like your sober way of looking at things. Also, it is difficult for me to relate to what has happened in the past and I truly do not care, it was nothing to do with me. I can only go with what I feel now and be true to it. If someone says I am imagining, what does it matter? One way or the other I am the only one to figure it all out. I do not need any help of a wise Lokesh:)
It appears you call me a Catholic sannaysin which I think is insulting term for sannyaisins and ungrounded. I love and respect Osho and I felt it since my teens for unexplainable reason. Osho is a presence and people came to him then for exactly the same reason people came to Osho after his leaving body. His presence can be felt and this is an experience of many sannyasins.
It is clear Lokesh you are not with Osho, you are not his disciple so of course why would he knock at your door?
We all have total freedom to choose the path we want. I chose mine, you – yours!
“When I read your comment what strikes me is how grateful I feel not to experience the need for the invisible man to be a living presence in my life, because it’s childish nonsense.”- and I am so grateful to feel a presence in my life and become more and more childish, light and playful and it ccame to me as a gift, a surprise. I didn’t carry any cross nore prayed – it is a gift from existence to feel alone and with universe at the same time. Osho is a door to universe for me and not a bearded man counting my sins and virtues.
Lokesh, if the world (pre-enlightenment) is a maya, we are both in illusion but I prefer my one cause it make me feel love towards myself and others. Our happness is a good determinant whether we are on our own path or follow like sheep what Osho said or Poonjaji said , for that matter.
‘It is clear Lokesh you are not with Osho, you are not his disciple so of course why would he knock at your door?’ In answer to your question, Chetna, I’d have to say that there is no door and no more Osho to knock on it. Apart from that I find it totally absurd that you feel the need to pass judgement on people in respects to if someone is an Osho disciple or not. What do you use as a yardstick. A pendulum? I do understand where you are coming from…a place of basic insecurity wherein you need to keep your own personal Osho hotline all to yourself. Well you can have him. Do you have a tee-shirt with ‘I’M IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE INVISIBLE MAN’, printed in bold letters? Do you have an Osho teddy?
“I don’t see the need for Osho to flourish”- I see, simply because crazy people were not only in Osho’s commune they are everywhere. If Osho’s mediations become more available, without any priests or money makers many problems can be solved: depression, addictions, insomnia, violence etc. People simply do not know there are other ways of dealing with things. I see a lot of suffering around me and people are programmed to go and have alcohol to feel better. If only they knew there are methods that can help and make you flourish. I am ever so grateful to Osho for his methods and his communes to realise what toxins we take and how unconsciously we live.
Sounds good on virtual paper. In the world it is not quite as simple as that. But, pulling your leg apart, I agree with you.
“But, pulling your leg apart, I agree with you.”
Yes, well, men will say anything when they’re, er, “pulling”…
Don’t believe a word he says, chetna, remember what your old mum used to say….
It’s true. I’m making all this up as I go along. I don’t take myself seriously. How can I? And I can’t take any of you lot seriously either. Dewrops that will evaporate into nothingnes when the sun comes up. Oh oh, the horizon is getting brighter. <<here comes the sun.
Lokesh says:
>> Dewrops that will evaporate into nothingnes when the sun comes up
I feel sorry for you because I am going to live forever. What happened to eternity? Out there in the future. How did you get “from eternity to here”?
There’s a joke in-there somewhere. If you are going to make up a belief, make it a good one.
“What was Osho on about in calling us his ‘friends’?”
Obvious, isn’t it? ‘Friends’ can be a very powerful and persuasive word when used on the naive and gullible by a clever, manipulative person, can’t it? Reminds me (for the older British people on this site) of the way Hughie Green (the compere), on the TV quiz show ‘Double Your Money’, constantly used the word when referring to the contestants and viewers, i.e. just like a used-car salesman, coming out with phoney-friendly, insincere gobshoite when in the pursuit of your money. Osho needed to ensure the money kept coming in, didn’t he? At some point a little bit of ‘lubrication’ was required, wasn’t it?
Whilst we are on the subject let us not forget the very special ‘friends’ who he left in charge of his ‘dream’. Are they the ones who Lokesh in his post, referred to as being ‘mentally disturbed’?
Thanks love,
Ashok
Open the box!
Yippee!!! Bingo!
Take the money!
No thank you, Michael. I’d sooner open the box!
The box is empty!
What box?
The boxless box.
Michael……… are you there? Michael……….. are you listening? I did not say ‘open the box’, I just said ‘I’d like to open the box’ silly! Different ennit? Michael I hope you are not trying to cheat me out of what I am due like some other unmentionable contributor on this site whose name I will not stoop to mention i.e. ‘P.M.’ nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more, geddit? Now Michael, joking apart, I would just like to remind you at this point that as I have indicated that I’d like to open the box but have not said so definitively……. that you are supposed to up the offer in some way if you can?
Lokesh and Satya Deva,
It is not spontaneous writing when question is directly pointed. I was pondering over it. Just minutes ago, i read a quotation of Osho at facebook and it helped me to write something…
First the quotation and my commentary..It is on my wall..
मेरा पूरा प्रयास एक नयी शुरुआत करने का है। इस से विश्व- भर में मेरी आलोचना निश्चित है। लेकिन इससे कोई फर्क नहीं पड़ता – परवाह किसे है…..!
♥ ओशो ♥
My whole effort is to kickoff a new begining. Due to this, my worldwide criticism is imminent. But it won´t make any effect. Who cares`….!
This is Osho?
Do we, His disciples have the guts to take this begining further, that begining which made Osho spiritual terrorist?
When one looks around, Sannyas has become a Christian sect, where Real jesus gets hanged on cross and followers hang corss in their neck.!
In a way, i would say, idea of meditation and inner treasures and enLIDLment is nothing new; neither master_disciple thing. India has long long tradtion of such things..
What i appreciated and admired and bowed down before Osho was His provocative approach to shake all the comfortable values, so much so even the westerns who have very liberal view about sex and nudity freaked out, what to say about India, who is still sandwitched between Arabia and Europe..
And i have given my life into this experiment of Osho and really feel blessed somewhere. It is another fact, how much price one has to pay for this..
When i criticise Osho´s own organisations, i have earned it. I am insider. At least here i was not a customer but a share holder, who poured his innocence and heart..
PS:This can be just one aspect…
Fascinating.
I have read, listened to and watched every single Osho discourse in Hindi and English and attended all of Osho’s discourses, and do every single meditation , every day….
the one memorable point though was when he read out a joke with my name, alluding to my Italian roots, following the prezzie I’d sent Osho, via Vimal, of a book of jokes for Osh to use in the series: Zen Fire Zen Wind,(the communist society collapsing discourses in which he lauded anarchists as being the true revolutionary idealists…nice one…)
Here is that joke, from the discourse (can’t remember which one)…and yes I am a slap head…
I suppose you lot think that’s funny eh?…
https://soundcloud.com/oshopirates/osho-and-tells-martyno-joke
Hello there from a Swiss Arrest Home
http://www.grapheine.com/classiktv/index.php?module=see&lang=uk&code=b887a240ab904d391c88263d58fac40a
‘Sannyas’ is enough for you, right? Satya Deva has asked.
Just want to correct a bit.
Sannyas was enough for me, when it was complete.
Now it is like dressed down fish, One pound fish!
Still i am not wrting RIP Neo sannyas!
From my daily dose of dailymail, i have come to know about, Freddie Mercury. When i have listened his one song randomly chosen at youtube, found it soothing for the ears and sensible words.
My query is, was Freedie Mercury kind of music was playing a role in creating sannyas kind of mind set in the collective west?
When i look forward, i don´t think in the coming future such kind of wave will happen where youth of modern bureaucratic rational and secular west look at some Indian guru as a new hope.
Realised beings for sure, but larger then life persona like Osho, looks like he was the last super star of spiritual entertainment!
Suggested listening for Shantam. ‘Anarchy in the UK’ by The Sex Pistols. That should get him going. I’ll look for a suitable missing link.
The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.
Master friend teacher disciple or sex slave … you decide.
Just how much of this consciousness we mutter on about is actually the divine wank ? Recollections of orgasmic biopsychic womb like atonement, the sexual orgasmic release permanently anchored in the released state?
Dilated pupils, slightly fixed gone beyond eyes. I mean how many times do you visit your apopleptic state per week ? Per month ? Per year.? or during watching the football ?
The Universe literally fucks with itself constantly in ever more wacky formations so as to coalesce energies and reproduce mandalas of form.
Once in a recorded Darshan, Osho was told of a now well known Swami’s (no, not me folks, but write in and I’ll tell you who ) desire for violent sex with girls, and that group therapy had not transformed his sex drive.
What Osho say…? That it wasn’t a problem, he just needed to find a Ma , who had the same sexual drives, and sex stuff, consensually , and in the Ashram this was very possible to do, because all options were open.No getting over it or through it or beyond it. Just drop the self loathing and enjoy together consensually. These days we have the internet for such things, and hairy armpits are just one of the many many possibilities.
Now just for a moment consider… are the metaphors for consciousness in our lives, ways of relating to the remembered, womblike, unifying orgasm-type-release from bondage moments, heart enchanting mesmerizing , complete with dilated pupils and that far away look. From wanking to wonder. Let me tell you.. I think the girls know.. at least a few of them do.
So next time we consider telling someone about our love for the master, then please have the evidence in your hand to show him where these moments of connectedness arise and where exactly this love is all connected in oneself. Is our love of the Master, the talk of consciousness and self obliteration, some neat and tidy way of concluding bits of our perhaps as yet unclaimed disparate selves, which yes do, I’m sorry to say include the libido.Even if yours is tattooed or pierced ?
Think for a moment , if any of this is shocking or inconclusive to you, how Anais Nin enjoyed her libido and is still read today for furtive insights into her transparently accountable , ethical but amoral sexuality for all to enjoy.
Now if we begin to put Osho and one’s own unity back into the place from whence it came, showing how mandala multi coloured third eye….., and body organisms are all one, and take them, oneself , to the ineffable and inexpressible yet constant presence that is the universal aumgasm of direct life, direct gnosis, direct heart to heart dissolution and recombination…. then isn’t it acceptable that perhaps what we talk of is held in common, familiar, here, constant, integrated already… as is sex…with a big S
and that this correspondence with one’s own libido even if only as a familiar metaphor will uncover the language and concerns that will define one’s own journey and any recombination with others through shared dynamics and concerns.?
Flirting with the divine?…well if they have tattoos and are naughty rebel pussy rioters with veggy integrity.. then well yes I love your Osho too…have you seen mine…? Shall I show you ?
oh,and my Osho would even recommend sucking consensual adult genitals in hell….if it helped…..( he did, if you look at the evidence).
How shocking…!
I’m shocked.
It beats IKEA meditation centres by a mile, even if they do have tidy bedrooms.
as for me….
I’m off to Osho-tattoos.com for the rest of today..I ‘m just getting hot flushes.Cheers.
Hi Ashok, talking to you now …
“You say that Lokesh is wise! I don’t know about that. However, whatever else you think about him, he is a realist. You would do well to take on board what he says!”- Ashok, thanks but no! I am not looking up for Lokesh’s advice. He might consider himself here as a sannaysnews Godfather and have some followers, but no me.
“just go to Pune and take a look at the special ‘friends’ he has left behind to ‘flourish’ in the running of the place. “- Ashok, I don’t even need to go that far. Many people on this site give this good impression too, how much they have learnt and are filled with love for Osho and his people.
In face we don’t even need to distinguish sannaysin and non-sannaysins. By large the situation is the same where we humans are.
“But be careful it can be dangerous – Adolf Hitler was considered to be enlightened, have great presence and charisma by his followers.”
Re Hitler it is very timely. Yesterday I watched a Russian documentary about Gurdjieff and there are some facts mixed with suspicions that Hitler and Stalin took their inspiration from Gurdjieff and specifically that a man is a machine and that new humanity needs to be created. I would say it is possible, considering that Gurdjieff and Stalin had studied in the same place in Tbilisi and Gurdjieff had met Hitler too. Obviously those historians/philosophers interpret facts with their limitations. But one fact remained obvious is that some of Gurjieff’s disciples became close to Hitler/famous Nazi SS and there is a record of an occupation of Paris commanded by the disciple of Gurdjieff. In front of the crowed Gurdjieff shouted to his disciple “Self-remembrance, do not forger self-remembrance” and the happy disciple, having recognised the voice of Gurjieff, kneeled down to his master in front of his Nazi Armi. So the conclusion was drawn that Gurdjieff did not care about where his disciples came from, what they did and who they were. He continued teaching them. Sadly, Gurjieff is still considered as a crazy man in my homeland who practised in his commune on a smaller scale what Stalin and Hitler did-made everyone work some inhuman hours, doing hard labour, making them so drank to see their unconscious, made vegetarians eat mea etc etc.
With Osho the situation is less extreme, but Osho is so heavily criticised for not selecting angels as his disciples but rather disturbed people. Why else Masters would come? Who will try to shift their consciousness?
You said.
‘but Osho is so heavily criticised for not selecting angels as his disciples but rather disturbed people. Why else Masters would come? Who will try to shift their consciousness?’
********
Yes.
My Osho is not a salvationist Chetna, and I don’t need him to be. I have unfortunately known people who thought, believed, had faith in for example that the discarnate Babaji, the breatharians guru, was the supreme being, higher than the highest high of the high highs, for the benefit of some of the dopiest dopes of the dope dopes.
When unfortunately I had to sit through their despicable child bullying indian mantric singalongs that were ordained to ‘shift energy’ I felt like thumping some of their priestly fucks with a hitlerian fist and letting the children play tag instead of crying their eyes out with photos of a count in count proto vedic uniform on the wall.
When there is any imposition of what I perceive as your version of salvationism on yourself , with or without hitlerian associations I will be the first to clap and encourage you to do that. Hear Osho’s voice in your head .. great..! feel osho in your nose, great.!.. he visits you at breakfast.. fantastic. Do more.
But ….When you don’t do it for yourself but if you serve that to others ,with psychically valued interpretive imposition…. and if I’m anywhere near I will be the first to sabotage any form of coercion upon others that panders to collective dystopic myopia, by my own definition, as being ‘Osho’s vision’ simply because you or someone else or even Osho called it worthy or meditative. I like being that me ,you see Chetna, and I like that about me more than anything borrowed from someone else in support of consciousness or frozen peas.
Sannyas is full of adavntage takers …. with huge undeclared agendas. Maybe you will never get pissed on or maybe you already have been ,elsewhere, Chetna, but if you do , you will have to sort it from the web of your own making. There is no preventative suppository for that , not even hearing voices or being attuned through mutual identities of prescribed ‘osho loving’, but if you find otherwise please enjoy fully.
I don’t need to draw parallels with Genghis Khan or anyone else for adding warning credibility for my approach , I just follow my own nose. And for that I can align myself at any time with anyone or anything out of choice or affection or love or need, and similarly chuck the baby out with the bath water, regularly. I don’t need any other guru to compare Osho’s influence to, for this inexpressible glorious essence, or use history lessons to scare anyone with. I remain Osho ‘credulous’ and happily so, and with nobs on. The fact is in my humanistic horizon, that any direct gnosis is not by its essence, organizeable, so for anyone wanting religion without the litmus test of mirth-filled warm outrageous satire, my inclinations cannot be sublimated into anyone else’s needs or formulas. It’s a metaphor for the clear life. I’m happy if centres or organized activities exist, I just retain my anarchist idealogical roots in defining them for consumption, in this or that world through my experience of the nature of conscious energy released and any consumer friendly structures suitable for use.
and
If you or anyone else would like to discuss the relative values of your libido in relation to consciousness drop me a line here.
I can dig it.
PM, one man’s meat, is another man’s murder. Nice words, sentences well constructed, but nevertheless the message negative and defeatist. Why so?
BV..
you do your osho and I will do mine…mine has had strong enduring overtures after profound confrontations, yours may well never have to live those out.
I do not know anything about your negativist interpretation but if my approach implies anything that any others can use, and has hardly been spoken of let alone offered, then I’m happy to be sticking my foot in my own door. If you think it’s a corporate uniform door, that belongs to someone else, founded otherwise then it’s your privilege to use any approach, any trick in the book, to say and do …otherwise.
I have been around.
My sentences and constructs are not the source of my identity nor conviction.It’s just something that I do. That and unpredictable playfulness to the max, but obviously I have had nothing more to do with sannyasidom for a good few years now. If you wish to oppose or sublimate or inveigle my intentions into a strategy of your own, be my guest.. or rather Parmartha’s in this idea based virtuality.
Coercive formal manipulation of some or many sannyasins has destroyed sannyas and the loving rebellion which you love but cannot promote or at least confuse with regression, as above.
I write here out of memory and the invitation for largely unministered interactions, because Sannyas in it’s great and wonderful variety has not given birth to anything much like this, despite claiming to be the voice of the rebellious lovers, …look around at the choices. One’s which wouldn’t stand libertarian scrutiny for a moment.
I didn’t even know about SN until 2010. For me it’s a blog, and takes care of my intellectual solitude, its not a way of life , so I wouldn’t worry about my or your opinion too much. I welcome everyone blowing their own trumpet, just don’t expect anyone’s tune to be the same. I don’t,……. and here it’s just spiritual entertaining football and I formally oppose the Paolo di Canio’s of this world, lock stock and barrel.
Every day it amazes me that I write here, I often determine I will stop, and then type again, because although I have no expectation of anything happening from it, I have known big P.. and D a little bit and this is like writing for some underground samizdat from 1968. Bizarre and silly, but who knows someone might like the cartoons we paint and the links I send.
If you think I’m that negative, what do you think of my links to Father Ted,… great as long as no-one mentions sannyas from the inside ? I don’t ask for agreement , just examination. I’m afraid that my opponents here don’t have the gift of the gab for either or the self reliant imaginative aesthetic….fun. But keep trying.
Ps, do you also eat kebabs..and get religion on fish fridays ? ….and yes that is a sabotage attempt from me, just in case you are prone to dismissive subterfuge.
chetna says:
>> Yesterday I watched a Russian documentary about Gurdjieff and there are some facts mixed with suspicions that Hitler and Stalin took their inspiration from Gurdjieff and specifically that a man is a machine and that new humanity needs to be created.
Osho – Man is a robot.
http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Shiva-Shakti/man_is_a_Machine.htm
>> I would say it is possible, considering that Gurdjieff and Stalin had studied in the same place in Tbilisi
It is not just a coincidence that Josef Stalin and George Gurdjieff were born in the same place – the Caucasus. Both were Caucasians; both have the same tradition; both grew in the same kind of atmosphere; and both were really hard men. That’s why Josef Stalin got the name “Stalin.” It is not his real name. “Man of steel” – that is the meaning of Stalin.
And the same was the situation with Gurdjieff, who was even far stronger than Josef Stalin. But they are coming from the same stock. Nobody has bothered to look into their backgrounds. They studied in the same monastery. They grew up in the same environment. They have the same kind of blood and the same kind of tradition. Their past is exactly the same. And the first effort of Josef Stalin, after the revolution, was to kill Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff had to escape from Russia.
(Osho – Light on the Path – Act According to Your Insight)
‘He might consider himself here as a sannaysnews Godfather and have some followers, but no me.’
Chetna, you might consider that such a ridiculous thought has never entered my mind let alone been consdered.
None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
Goethe
Beautiful words, wise words from anybody has no effect at least on the collective sannyas mind; it screams automatically, ” But the person is not enlightened..”.
8 January 1986 pm in Kathmandu, Nepal
BELOVED OSHO, I LOVE TO HEAR YOU CALL US YOUR FRIENDS. WHY IS IT BOTH EXCITING AND CHALLENGING?
It has many implications. It was twenty-five centuries ago that Gautam Buddha said as a departing message to his disciples before he died: “I will come back after twenty-five centuries. My name will be Maitreya.” Maitreya means the friend. And why should it be the name of Buddha? – because the spiritual evolution of man has passed through many stages. Its ultimate stage is where the master and the disciple should be just friends…
* * *
It is a great challenge, because when you accept the buddha as a friend, there are two possibilities: either you have to pull the buddha down to the state where you are, or you have to rise to the state where the buddha is. The challenge is that you cannot pull the buddha back down to the state where you are; that is simply impossible. You cannot in any way bring him down to the darkness and to the depth and to the blindness where you live. You will have to rise to his sunlit peaks. It is a tremendous challenge.
I have called you my friends… the same challenge. (Light on the Path)
Last time I did the mystic rose, I walked out of it as the guy who was leading it didn’t have a clue. Blasting the theme music from Titanic at 1000 decibels in the crying stage was not about to provoke the relevant tearful emotion from yours truly , or playing Pachelbels famous canon at 2000 decibels. Plus the fact that people were going in and out phoning their friends and smoking cigarettes willy nilly, plus the valued assistant had his lipsticked non osho inclined girlfriend sitting in on the sessions, though not taking part in a any way shape or form, just because her boyfriend was assisting, made me think someone had just got a black robe from the costume hire shop and was taking the piss.
I’m also reminded of the time when orders came from on high in Pune whilst I was doing the dance training, that Dynamic was a part of the group and not doing it was ‘not on’ according to the beard. The fact was that I despised dynamic and always did, having much experience of its utter pointlessness from humaniversity days, for doing anything more than giving me a painful neck. Not only, but this time which I mention, my guts were being eaten from the inside out by amoebas, and doing the dance hours was all I could manage reliably. So I stood up at the tender age of 29 and said that dynamic was the most disgusting breakfast I could think of and although I might give it a try, I had no intention of being coerced from anyone to do it first thing in the morning. It was a valedictory sod off. In those days any such behaviour meant withdrawing consensual group cohesion and being resistant.
As you can see from these two very small examples there is no way to a priori navigate the minefield of subscribing to worthy behaviour. There are situatuons and contradictions a plenty.Anyone who comes out with trite conscriptural impositions really is blowing out their arse. I’m not in a school of life and I don’t have a syllabus to complete.My arse has been put here by forces beyond my own making , the least I can do is blow raspberries for my if not anyone elses entertainment.
prem martyn says:>> Anyone who comes out with trite conscriptural impositions really is blowing out their arse. I’m not in a school of life and I don’t have a syllabus to complete.
There is absolutely no excuse for bad behaviour. I understand that many of the strong outbursts here, arise out of accumulated exasperation with having to deal with idiots in sannyas and there were plenty of them around. I have three comments:
1. You have take responsibility. Altogether I did over three years humaniversity residential and I didn’t do one dynamic. Not one. In my whole sannyas life I probably did three dynamics. I started doing dynamic about six months ago and now I am sixty I love it. It sorted out my biologics. I treat it like exercise and I put as much or as little as want in it.
2. I think the brave souls who made it to Osho and India those days (let’s say the ‘70s) where a lot tougher and carried a lot more anger and resentment within them (wasn’t that, which got them there in the first place?) than your today’s average London office boy/girl …
3. I am not sure if you noticed how much the word ‘friendship’ is currently being thrown around. A friend doesn’t have to do what you want but he has to listen to you. As I said before, the old ‘lover’ models don’t work anymore.
if you are taking responsibility why are you blaming me ?
I take full responsibility, to blame you.. but that’s because I shift the goal posts
I’m 2-0 up and it’s half time….
have a word with the coach, try a 4 4 3 formation…
number 2 is a generalisation for what purpose and what evidence… that we looked like bearded retards.. well fair enough squire.. you seem to have the trite considerations there well sorted….
and you did three years at the non impositional humanoisity, because it was not about releasing the blocked first third or the 5th chakra… do me a favour….
here are some marines… quick go tell it to them… (obscure reference to ww2 joke)
prem martyn says:
>> and you did three years at the non impositional humanoisity, because it was not about releasing the blocked first third or the 5th chakra… do me a favour….
Osho did put a lot of energy towards Veeresh at the time, praising him and giving him private interviews, etc …
I cannot see how I am blaming you. If anything you are blaming me for the reaching, some time ago, the position you are in now.
Vartan, I’m just wondering why you bothered to spend so much time at the Humaniversity if, as you’ve already stated here – or certainly given the impression – you grew up ‘happy’, without debilitating personal issues requiring deep therapeutic intervention?
And also bearing in mind your years living with ‘Veerseh people’ in London, which you suggested wasn’t exactly all that ‘appropriate’ for you, ie you felt rather distant from much of what was going on there.
Just curious….
satyadeva says:
Just curious….
There was a time when Veeresh was ‘the rebel’ to the official ‘Sheela line’ in the same way that these days Shantam is ‘the rebel’ to the official ‘Jayesh line’. I like to check thing out. Whatever is going on now might not be same as what was going on 15-20 years ago.
The whole object of communes is to show you where you are … as most people tend to undervalue themselves.
The problem with psychology and therapy is that you never see the successes because they get sorted and move-on but the failures will linger around forever.
“Chetna, you might consider that such a ridiculous thought has never entered my mind let alone been consdered.”- Lokesh, I love you really. You are my hero!
Sweet. Alas, I am not very heroic, more zeroic.
after surrendering to nothingness …. what !!! if you again feel empty and again u will start whole birth cycle and evolution. will u remain witness or will take part in it ???? Journey will remain cont. as witness or u will not feel even witness ??? who will feel ??? nothingness is coming in dimension for what 1. Auto mode 2. for Joy 3. feeling empty 4. to know illusory self and than NJoyyyy real self 5. why again n again n again , no control over it ???
holographic Universe : Scientist Basher says that : we are not ever going to be out higher self , no matter how much dynamic , kundalini , mystic , whirling meditation or spiritual evolving we do. We are on other side of the field.
SCIFI says:
>> holographic Universe :
We are on other side of the field.
I am extremely surprised that nobody has commented on the Holographic Universe link I put up in Caravanserai considering that it is one of man’s greatest discoveries ever …
My feeling is that The Field is inside us. Well at least we are experiencing it as being inside but it’s actually outside. We are at the interface. WE ARE THE INTERFACE. We are not only looking at the world upside-down we are also looking at it “inside-out”. The Landscape (out there) is actually being manufactured inside us and projected outwards (the observer generated reality) and the Inscape (“The Field”) is our common home. (That ‘place inside’ is actually somewhere ‘out there’ on the event horizon where all this is taking place.) We are all the same consciousness pretending not to be. There is more to meat than meets the eye.
I thoroughly recommend for everyone to watch the video. It’s 7½ hours long but if you didn’t already know about the subject you won’t be the same person by the end of it.
BV..i’ve commented on this holography , before, way back.. even before you posted here on SN… but the relationship for a polymath with an Archimedean palimpsest is very different from my own which looks for the aha ha ha ha moment of gags as a method of shinturu cokasuku …
do you have a plough with which you wade through these things.. Parmartha has borrowed mine for my latest post to shantam….