Meditation, Mindfulness and The Fundamental Cause of The Pandemic?

Frank found an article proposing Mindfulness practice as a key resource for getting through the current pandemic.  While another correspondent, “Jewels”, offers a radical explanation for the fundamental cause of this crisis.

First, Frank:

“I found this online:

Do the readers consider  that their meditation experience is a resource that may have some practical purposes with regards to the ongoing pandemic, as opposed to a means to becoming `enlightened`?
Can we ‘Zen’ our way through it?   Or do we all  have to go sometime and just go with whatever?
Any thoughts?”
And here’s an unusual take from Jewels…
Dear Friend,I’m reaching out at this time to you, at this time of deep and unsettling shifts in the world all around us,  immediately before us.  For so many, the welling-up of the coronavirus pandemic is causing anxiety and fear, as feelings of safety ebb away, for others the outbreak brings isolation and loneliness. And I am writing to share this with you…in the hope that it might offer support and strength…Recently, I spent the night in the Earth Lodge, journeying into a womb divination to see if I could access any guidance from the essence of the Coronavirus. Here’s what came:WATER IS TRYING TO SPEAK TO US
We as a human species are on the verge of extinction
Destroying most of life on earth in the process
This is reason to grieve
This is reason to grieve
This is reason to grieve
But we refuse to grieve
We carry on, business as usual.Corona virus is governed by the element of water
In essence it begins to fill our lungs with fluid and leaves us feeling like we are drowning.
The lungs are the sacred keepers of grief
This virus is here to help release the river of global grief inherent in every human being
Our bodies, through this virus are processing the grief we refuse to feel.

We need to let the grief flow
We need to feel our Love
We need to feel our hearts breaking – open
We need to return to living from the deepest love and for all life.

That was what I was shown. If it resonates I hope it is a guide, if it doesn’t please compost it.

With deep love and gratitude,

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164 Responses to Meditation, Mindfulness and The Fundamental Cause of The Pandemic?

  1. bob says:

    The Mindfulness Cocktail Recipe:

    1 oz. real meditation (preferably Zen, but any reputable brand will do)
    20 oz. purified water (no water from rivers in India or China, please)
    2 cups pure white sugar (can substitute high fructose corn syrup if necessary)
    1 liberal, white, cowardly, western new-age addled brain (preferably female, but any pussy-whipped male substitute is ok. Note: grind into a mushy puree)
    Shake (gently), or stir (gently also), and serve in eco-approved glass (no plastic!).
    Enjoy in a mindful manner in the company of like-minded mindfulness people. OM.

  2. bob says:

    Uh, how can I put this..?
    You need help, my friend, I hope you can find it…
    Good luck.
    I think the Brits have a word for this, that they invented…codswallop…Punters, what say you…?

  3. Kavita says:

    “Do the readers consider that their meditation experience is a resource that may have some practical purposes with regards to the ongoing pandemic, as opposed to a means to becoming `enlightened?”

    Frank, now, to me, meditation is an abstract source, not just a technical-experience or a resource.

    Now Taoist non-doing seems practical, even to politicians! Seems we can’t do without anything Chinese!

    “Can we ‘Zen’ our way through it? Or do we all have to go sometime and just go with whatever? Any thoughts?” -

    Isn’t physical life inevitably mortal?! Zenning through is a choiceless choice, sorry for sounding clichéd.

  4. Lokesh says:

    Seems everywhere we turn there is something to do with the corona virus. Everyone is talking about it. The media is overflowing with it. Everyone has their take on it, from conspiracy theories to the fact that humankind is so out of touch and destroying our natural habitat to such an extent that a beast has been unleashed. And now here we are on SN, invited to share our perspectives.

    I do not like to say it, but the situation is very serious. It is distasteful to make a joke out of it because the virus is making people suffer, big time, on many different levels. What is of greater concern is that the ball is just getting rolling and gathering momentum by the day and where it is going nobody seems to know.

    I was sitting outside as the sun went down this evening, the fading rays coating the natural environment in subtle hues of colour. Not like a picture postcard, but rather the work of the greatest artist, Nature itself. Apart from a dog barking in the distance, the chirp of a few birds and the buzz of bees on their way home after a hard day’s play in pollen heaven, the atmosphere was filled with a profound silence. There was nothing unnatural about the silence, but I did find it a little unsettling in the sense that it let you know things are not ‘normal’. Spain is a lively and quite noisy place, even here in the north of Ibiza far from the city and airport. No planes or vapour trails in the sky today. Silence and emptiness. Our social systems are shutting down for a readjustment. I have no idea of what the outcome will be, and I am cool with that.

    Of all the Osho stories I heard in Buddha Hall, the two that stayed with me most are ‘This Too Will Pass’ and ‘You Never Know What Is A Blessing Or A Curse’. Those stories are food for the soul and have been my companions through wonderful and difficult periods in my life….a great source of inspiration, to say the least. They are great boons to have under your belt in times of crisis and right now we are heading for a global one.

    “Hey, Bobby Dylan, what’s happening man?”
    “There’s a slow, slow train coming up around the bend.”

    • satchit says:

      The virus helps to stay in the Here and Now.

      The mind can worry about the future but nobody really knows where the journey goes. So one can watch the fears
      that are fears of change and fears of death.

      Something known has to go and something unknown will come. Times of uncertaintity are also times of intensity.

      • swamishanti says:

        I first read ‘Bhagwan: The Buddha for the Future’ (1988), around 1996.

        I remember the author, Juliet Foreman (Maneesha James), recalling how someone had carted a large wheel of Gouda cheese all the way from the West back to the ashram for her boyfriend Teertha, the encounter group leader (funnily enough she had also had a scene with Michael Barnett, another group leader in the ashram, later known as Somendra, back in London).

        Well, I had always wondered what Gouda cheese was like, the way she described it it sounded so tasty. I had tried many cheeses, Edam, Cheddar, Brie, Camembert etc., and I had visited Holland once for ten days but had never sampled the Gouda. I had never tried it until recently, and I thoroughly enjoyed my first taste.

        I bit into the slice. Delicious. Now I knew what all the fuss was about and why it would be so prized in Poona.

        Apparently it doesn’t need refrigerating, but I like it cool, kept in the fridge.

        So I have been buying wedges of Gouda cheese from the supermarket over the past several months.

        Shame, there is often very little food in the supermarkets these days people are panic buying, fucking buying loads of toilet rolls and all the vegetables are gone and half the shelves are empty. But yesterday, I still managed to find a piece of Gouda cheese which I used to create a nice pasta.

        My advice:
        If you catch Covid 19, make sure you eat three to four cloves of raw garlic, three times a day every day. Crush or chop them up and mix them with live yoghurt, otherwise it will burn your mouth. The yogurt combined with fresh garlic is also good for the digestion and is full of zinc and selenium.

        Garlic is good for chest infections, and the miners used to put cloves of garlic in their boots to ward off infections down in the coal mines.

        • swamishanti says:

          Talking of cheese:

          There is an annual cheese rolling event in Gloucester, hundreds of years old, a competition where the cheeses are rolled down the hill.

          It has now become a worldwide event, but this year has been cancelled because of the coronavirus.

          • satyadeva says:

            Another nail in the coffin carrying our precious traditions, the bulwarks of our very way of life ‘Hard cheese’ for participants and spectators.

            Chee(r)se, Swamishanti!

              • satyadeva says:

                Just received this by email, claiming A SUREFIRE CURE FOR THE CORONAVIRUS:

                ———- Forwarded message ———
                From: daniel
                Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 16:32
                Subject: Chloroquine Cure – URGENT message

                A Cure for the Plague

                It sounded too good to be true, I certainly thought so at first.

                Sitting there, eating my breakfast, I heard the guest on Tucker Carlson explain how hydroxychloroquine, a safe and cheap relative of quinine, was able to clear the coronavirus.

                In 100% of cases!

                Tucker was, rightly, incredulous: 100% cure for viral infections is unheard of. It is frankly, miraculous. And yet, there it was in black and white, a peer reviewed study, hot of the presses, from one of the worlds most eminent infectious disease researchers – Professor Didier Raoult.

                The treatment is ridiculously easy. A single daily dose of hydroxychloroquine for 6 days cures almost 2/3rds of patients. Add another antimicrobial called azithromycin and 100% of patients are cured.

                This was no outlier. Scientists have known for years that the related coronaviruses SARS and MERS were vulnerable to chloroquine. Anecdotal reports from China and Australia had shown great improvements in coronavirus with chloroquine. Lab studies had shown the virus was incredibly susceptible. What this quality trial from Professor Raoult added was undeniable proof, with a p-value of <0.0001 it meant that the chance that this was random was almost zero. A cure for coronavirus had been found! It was a miracle.

                Now, this is where the world needs your help. Whilst Donald Trump and Boris Johnson have both announced the immediate use of this on TV the mainstream media are practically silent. A search on the BBC website on 20/3/2020 brings back zero results for either hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine. The news fails to trend on Google, Twitter or Facebook.

                Meanwhile, people are dying, countries are in lockdown, martial law instigated in the EU, and economic collapse is happening at a breathtaking rate. Sadly, the reality is that the media are silent about a cure that is now in plain sight.

                We don’t have time to go into why this is. We need to get this information to everyone. We need the entire world to be talking about chloroquine within 24 hours. Send this email to everyone you know and tell everyone you know. Make this email go viral…to beat the virus.

                Time is of the essence. The world is collapsing around us. Stopping this plague is the only way to stop the collapse. We must let the world know.

                Tell everyone you know: Chloroquine cures the Coronavirus.

                Dr Dan Keown
                MCEM MBChB Lic Ac

                • swamishanti says:


                  The ‘anti-microbial’ referred to here is a very powerful antibiotic, Azithromycin, which can cause severe side-effects.

                  Whilst the main substance qouted, hydroxychloroquine, may well be effective, I would choose regular crushed cloves of garlic any day over Azithromycin. Garlic has been proven to have just as powerful an antibiotic effect as Penicillin, and is also antiviral and antifungal.

                  I’m not keen on golden showers as Anand Yogi suggests, although I know that some yogis do rate urine therapy.

    • shantam prem says:

      Russell Brand as an Indian would have gone for Satsang Tour.
      He looks like the Jaggi Vasudev of UK.

      • Kavita says:

        RB, to me, seems like an innocent fellow in this video!

        • satyadeva says:

          Well, yes, Kavita, but he’s, er, ‘been around’ a fair bit, had his share of addictions: drugs and sex (with hundreds, apparently).

          In the last few years he’s ‘gone spiritual’, meeting the Dalai Lama and taking up Maharishi’s TM.

          He makes a telling point about the so-called ‘civilised world’, I think, in this short video you gave, seeing its essential ‘unreality’. Many man-made things universally taken for granted in our system are virtually dissolving before our eyes, eg (in no particular order of significance) holidays abroad, regular work, sport at every level, expectations of good health, social life, going out for entertainment, seeing the local doctor, businesses large and small, public transport, even the economic system itself…

          Leaving what? Ah, now that’s the question…

          Anyone know? No answers on postcards, please, the post will probably be decimated soon as well. Here will do, thanks.

          • satyadeva says:

            Right on cue a friend has just sent me this…

            “And the people stayed home. And read books, and listened, and rested, and exercised, and made art, and played games, and learned new ways of being, and were still. And listened more deeply. Some meditated, some prayed, some danced. Some met their shadows. And the people began to think differently.

            “And the people healed. And, in the absence of people living in ignorant, dangerous, mindless, and heartless ways, the earth began to heal.

            “And when the danger passed, and the people joined together again, they grieved their losses, and made new choices, and dreamed new images, and created new ways to live and heal the earth fully, as they had been healed.”

            Kitty O’Meara

          • Kavita says:

            SD, if I remember correctly, first time I read about RB was here, Parmartha had introduced him here on SN.

            Yes, of course, perhaps Dalai Lama, if not hammered by Osho, would not be what he is today!

            Maybe survival of the subtlest is essential for real life on Earth!

      • frank says:

        Have you noticed how every so-called spiritual Tom, Dick and Henrietta and every other shameless shaman and wannabe guru is making out they`ve got the inside dope on what the virus is all about?

        I have heard that the truth is that Mother Earth is so pissed off with her children for behaving like such absolute idiots that she has sent them all to their rooms!

        • anand yogi says:

          Important update about Coronavirus from Bungabungalore Ashram!

          Swami Bhorat has issued a set of guidelines to protect from Coronavirus that he has channelled from ultimate source via Nine Men of Mighty Bhorat!

          1: One must follow example of lineage of ancient yogis and to drink own amber nectar! Even better if one is advanced yogi and can do Halasana (see picture), not necessary to use glass or bottle, which is even safer!

          2: Eat large amounts of garlic and also rub it under arms and crotch. People who do this find out that it helps self-isolation happen very easily! Alternatively, wear 400 year-old underwear!

          3: When having sex it is neccesary to wear gardening gloves, heavy-duty bin-liners with hole cut in top, smeared with linseed oil and wellington boots!

          4. Wipe bottom in time-honoured fashion of mighty tantric sages of the left-hand path! No need to go panic-buying toilet rolls!

          And last but not least…
          Winston Churchill said: “Keep calm and carry on.”
          Swami Bhorat says “Keep calm and Hari Om!”

          • swamishanti says:

            Anand Yogi, I know that Indian yogis have extolled the virtues of drinking one’s own piss, for eons, saying it is beneficial for the body and has a self-healing effect, a bit like homeopathy.

            You may be interested to know that if one takes ecstasy, most of the active ingredient quickly leaves the body through the urine.

            It was a friend many years ago who told me this, one night when there were some Mitsubishi turbos going around, that he had learned this from spending some time with some hardcore brewcrew anarcho vagabonds that if you run out of e’s in a night and are facing a comedown, then immediately drinking a glass or cup of your own piss will bring you back up again for several hours.

            He had learnt this from spending some time with the type of people who will drink a can of Special Brew for breakfast, then beg or steal some more from the off-license, and had learnt the Indian customs of chanting ‘Bom Shankar’ every time they passed around a spliff.

            • frank says:

              I had never heard that one about the Brew Crew. It certainly adds a new dimension to the expression “Pissheads”!

              Your tale reminds me of the story of the Viking bezerkers who,i t was said, used to drink the piss of a fellow warrior who had eaten a Fly Agaric mushroom, using him as the filter to improve the purity of the hit. Turns out this was a bit of a myth and they were, in fact, even more organised, and used reindeer as the filter.

              • swamishanti says:

                I know the stories of the Viking chiefs consuming the Fly Agaric mushrooms and then pissing into the pot, which the berserkers would then drink before battle and then go, er, berserk. Of course, Chinese whispers mean that there are different versions of stories and so we have to take different tales on the internet with a pinch of salt.

                But I have certainly heard about the Lapland Reindeer being fond of the Fly Agaric mushroom, and the Siberian Shamans are also known to be very fond of it.

                At midwinter festivals the shaman would enter the yurt through the smoke hole and down the central supporting birch pole, bringing with him a bag of dried fly agaric mushrooms which he would leave behind as a gift.

                Apparently, one or two dried caps was a popular enjoyment for the Mongols and will produce a feeling of relaxation, a drunken intoxication similar to drinking a couple of beers. Larger doses, on the other hand, will produce intense psychedelic spiritual experiences.

                This mushroom, Amanita Muscaria is not known as the ‘Alice in Wonderland’ mushroom for nothing, it can produce powerful out-of-body experiences where you may find yourself much bigger than your body, which may appear too small. Stronger doses are also said to bring one into contact with fairies, elves and other nature spirits.

                I have heard that this one has a strong potential for use with meditation.

                Apparently , it is best to dry to caps first and then cook them in the oven. This minimises drooling which is one of the side-effects of the active psychoactive ingredient, muscimol.

                4-6 caps is said to be a strong dose, but beware, this mushroom produce vomiting and 10+ caps can be fatal. It is not as easy on the stomach as the popular magic mushroom psylocybin.

                I have a keen interest in botany, and these red and white mushrooms are common in the area where I live. A close relative to this mushroom is Amanita Pantherina, which is also common where I live and is also a powerful psychoactive with the same compounds.
                (See picture below).

                I have known many different colourful characters in my life. Some of the pissheads I have known have been great fun and a good laugh.

                Generally, ‘Brewcrew’ are often seen to be a source of irritation within traveller circles or in the festival scene as they have a tendency towards aggro and violence and can cause unwanted hassle with the police.

                I met many characters in squats. Sometimes homeless people who have had difficult childhood circumstances and end up sleeping rough on the streets, others end up sleeping rough thanks to government austerity and cuts. People are sometimes attracted to the traveller scene where they will find some feeling of communal warmth and love.

                Some of the folks that my friend mentioned before ended up spending time with were pretty wild characters who lived on the edge, having a network of friends on sites up and down the country, dealing and stealing to survive, cutting holes into the roof of Hannigtons in Brighton with a chainsaw, and escaping with loot from the police, blagging everywhere, and the types that would put on bandanas and throw bottles and rocks at the riot police at the Reclaim the Streets parties of the nineties.

                I do wonder if some of those are still alive.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Amanita Pantherina:

                • frank says:

                  A friend of mine took Amanita Muscaria once. He sat by the fire all night in silence staring at the ground and occasionally twitching and jerking. He later reported it was very strong and very weird. He didn`t do it again. Myself and the others present decided to give it a miss and stick to Liberty caps.

                • shantam prem says:

                  There should be only one Nobel Prize for 2020: Nobel Prize for Medicine for finding vaccination & medicine for Corona.

                  Curious how many “Enlightened Beings” will share this.

                  Every other endeavour more or less looks like repetition and entertainment.

                • Klaus says:

                  I totally believe in the positives of civilisation:
                  Better medicine being one of them.
                  Besides toilets, sanitation and heating.

                • Klaus says:

                  @swamishanti 21 March, 2020 at 8:00 pm

                  Interesting information. Really.

  5. swami anand anubodh says:

    Alan Turing was a major figure in computer science and a pioneer in artificial intelligence. In 2021 Turing’s portrait will appear on newly issued £50 banknotes from the Bank of England. Reportedly it will feature this quote from him…

    “This Is Only a Foretaste of What Is To Come, and Only the Shadow of What Is Going To Be.”

    Hmmm…perhaps a synchronicity for the whole of humanity.

  6. shantam prem says:

    Two-thirds of humanity will die – oh no, it was not Aids but Corona.
    (Bhagwan Shree Jabalpur)

    • Kavita says:

      You know, Shantam, when I read/heard such predictions from self-proclaimed enlightened ones, I doubt if enlightenment exist at all, or perhaps I may be missing something?! Scientists & Astrologers can still be forgiven!

    • Kavita says:

      Actually, that prediction was made by Osho Poona not Bhagwan Shree Jabalpur!

      Bhagwan in Poona One, when asked about the world coming to an end, in a discourse, by Sw. Sant, had responded by a joke; maybe someone (Arps?) can find and share here, if possible?

    • swamishanti says:

      As soon as he heard about the new Aids outbreak, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh jumped upon it like a hungry cat on a mouse.

      There were fierce instructions: Gloves to be worn during sex. Condoms. No oral or anal sex, no kissing. (At that time it wasn’t clear how the virus could spread). Group sex wasn’t advised, stay with one partner if possible, stay celibate if you can. Compulsory testing for everyone and quarantine everyone found positive.(We know that Sheela abused that).

      But, had the world followed Bhagwan’s instructions at that time, the spread of the virus COULD HAVE BEEN CONTAINED.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Surely, Shantam, your intellectual honesty would not prevent you from recognizing that an invitation to awareness is different from an invitation to be anxious and suspicious of others.

      What was the name of that madman who, under the threat of military intervention, said that the celebration would continue even under the bombs?

  7. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Another contribution to this atmosphere of insecurity and anxiety, not even the practice of mindfulness seems to question the validity of the mantra “Stay at home!” because “There’s a slow, slow train coming up around the bend”.

    • frank says:

      Veet, what is your point exactly?
      Do you believe that everyone should ignore the advice to stay at home because it is all just a power-grab by governments who are manipulating the ignorant masses?

      What is your idea of what to do?
      Hug and kiss the nearest stranger?
      Recommend to hold large parties in parksfull of young people as has been happening in Germany, I hear?
      Ignore all the medical advice because it is just paranoia?

      Yes, it is true that most of the people who have died are old and that the death rate has not anywhere near exceeded the normal annual rates for ‘flu – so far.

      Yet, on what basis do you assert, as you seem to be doing, that there is no real danger other than the panic created and the totalitarianism of the politicians, media etc. who are perpetrating it?

      Genuinely interested to hear your answers.

      • satyadeva says:

        Surely he doesn’t have an ‘authority problem’? You know, confusing governments with parents, school teachers, police etc. While having no similar role to play himself? No, can’t possibly be anything like that, definitely.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        The situation is tragic but not serious. (Ennio Flaiano)

        Frank, I’m nobody to tell you what you should do, and then you always seem too busy telling others how useless and sillywhat they do and say is.

        But I gladly reply to those who, with me, are genuinely interested in understanding what is happening, evaluating alternative hypotheses (I have not said certainties) to that one of pandemic risk (Geopolitics: Russia-Turkey; Macroeconomic: Globalization driven by China; exit Italy from the single currency; Commercial: mandatory vaccines and implicit ideological affirmation of the Allopathic vision in body therapy), contextually reflecting on the social and political risks of resorting to emergencies (communism, Islamic fundamentalism, holistic health, etc.) as a practice of power.

        To help spinsters of a certain age, sour for not being able to get together for the five o’clock tea, some good news: big gains for those who have invested in financial stocks of antiviral companies and for mask manufacturers and retailers.

  8. shantam prem says:

    Just seen one photo, the peak of mindfulness, love and caring.

  9. Lokesh says:

    Check the vid on this link. Truly heroic Italian medical staff giving their absolute best in the battle to save human life. Note that not all of the afflicted are elderly.

  10. swamishanti says:

    Indeed, I have seen some clips of Italian hospitals last night and a number of the infected people in intensive care were some of the doctors who had managed to catch the virus whilst working with the patients.

  11. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    A few points of view:

    Nicola Porro, journalist, shares about the symptoms and his healing process after 5 days from the positive diagnosis of the convid test 19.

    On the advice of the doctor he treated himself at home with tachipirine when the fever reached 39 degrees cc, and keeping the oxygenation of the blood under control; if he had fallen below 90 he would have had to go to the hospital. Porro, journalist, shares about the symptoms and his healing process after 5 days from the positive diagnosis of the convid test 19.

    Below, the philosopher of health, Valdo Vaccaro, raw food vegan naturopath, in sharing the appreciation for the efforts of the doctors in the Lombard hospitals, expressing solidarity for those who suffer and die in this health emergency, also highlights how this is a situation that derives from the wrong premises of a disease-oriented medicine, and not health-oriented, affecting the patient’s ability to recover homeostasis, adding how to someone (including young and healthy people, and potentially able to live with viruses and bacteria), the continuous media bombardment about the dangerousness of the virus, could amount to a death sentence.

    Another point of view:
    investigative journalist Paolo Barnardreceived an email from the USA by Dr. Wayne Marasco, with attached a non-randomized French clinical study, signed by many researchers, about the effectiveness of a drug used against malaria, very cheap and already available in bulk quantities (hydroxychloroquine). Wayne invites to use it immediately as they are about to do in the USA, adding that at the doses described by the French study it also reduces the contagiousness of the virus. A final point is that the drug associated with the antibiotic azithromycin has given even more surprising results.

    I don’t use drugs and I always call for a healthy lifestyle, but in tragic cases and as a last resort to survival I am forced to advertise big pharma and its Allopathic and profit ideology, this is not serious.

    The last example above, re the French non-randomized study, is the same one as featured in SD’s earlier post (4.52pm today).

  12. shantam prem says:

    May doctors never get so-called enlightenment. They may forget life-saving skills & waste time in tempting vocation of lecturing basics of ethics and philosophy.

    • satyadeva says:

      Shantam, do you think that this and many of your other statements are mostly driven by extreme personal disillusionment?

      Do you secretly envy the expertise, sense of purpose and status of the doctors, while resigned and/or depressed and/or bitter at your own fate, together with what you regard as the ‘wanton destruction’ of Sannyas (ie of your personal version of Sannyas)?

      Perhaps you don’t bother to investigate where you’re coming from and how it affects your perceptions, opinions and judgments?

      • shantam prem says:

        I envy many people, especially Royal family. Their mediocres like me can live good life.

        I also envy Indian gurus of our time, there I am sure I will be better than all of them.
        Reason is simple:
        Future learns from the mistakes of the past.

      • shantam prem says:

        Other than jokes apart, SD, I can do your analysis too.

        I find it time-wasting activity unless someone has commissioned you to do this. We all create different kind of thoughts because we look at life from different angles and perceptions, opinions and judgments; neither Ramana Maharshi was free from them, nor Osho, nor Jaggi, nor Mooji. Are not most of Osho’s words perceptions, opinions and judgments?

        It is all fine the way everyone conceives and perceives.

        • satyadeva says:

          Shantam, you say, “It is all fine the way everyone conceives and perceives”, as if it’s all a ‘level playing field’, your views being as valid as anyone else’s, no matter who or what they are.

          I suggest the perceptions, opinions and judgments of the people you cite here weren’t/aren’t distorted by them having been/being unhappily resigned to, depressed at or bitter about their fate; in other words, consumed by unhappiness. Consequently, their statements are infinitely more likely to resonate with wisdom and truth than yours.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

            It is well known amongst those who have emerged from the bowels of mighty Bhorat that along with plastic surgery, stem-cell genetics, maths, nuclear fission, air and space travel, public toilets, conspiracy theories and Delhi belly, the vedic scientists of ancient Bhorat also invented postmodernism!

            The rational baboon and failed psycho-analist SD fails to grasp that Shantambhai`s views “are as valid as anyone else’s, no matter who or what they are.”!

            The absurd western baboon entirely fails to appreciate the dada-esque cyberspace post-modernism of Shantam`s ironic bricolage and subversion of metaphor that is designed to deconstruct the phallocratic power-status of discredited grand narratives presented by privileged white males such as SD, by creating a cathartic aporia through ironic semiotic alterity!

            Keep calm and Hari Om!

  13. Levina says:

    From personal experience I can recommend kalmegh powder (ayurvedic medicine). I’ve been taking it for 2 years and since then, when I have a cold I don’t get bronchitis any more. It has many other benefits, you can google them. The same for moringa powder, both are also helpful for a healthy immune system!

    Interesting that they now have started using hydroxchloroquine, which was invented by Jim Humble as M.M.S, as a cure for malaria, and it worked! But at that time it was poo-pooed by the establishment as bogus, and now they’re coming round to it, because it has the stamp “officially o.k”!

    I used it myself at the time (it also helps with auto-immune diseases). It tasted foul, ’cause it’s made from bleach, but it eased my symptoms.

    What is M.M.S., pleae, Levina?

  14. Lokesh says:

    Levina, perhaps you should write to the WHO informing them about this.

    • Levina says:

      Informing them about what, Lokesh? I’m sure they know about the Hydroxchloroquine. And you know as well as I do that they are an organisation that doesn’t advocate natural treatment. I may be wrong but I suspect it is your usual cynical criticism that is doing the suggestion?

      • Lokesh says:

        Levina, I could not resist it. The world’s top scientists are working to find a vaccine against corona virus and you come up with a suggestion to take kalmegh powder as a preventative medicine, which is first and foremost an aid to liver function although can protect bronchial function. It just sounded lame and flaky to me.

        • Levina says:

          Lokesh, you seem to trust the scientist that might come up with a possible vaccine, I don’t. It might well be that this whole Corona thing was set up to create a vaccine. I will include an intervieuw with somebody who has worked with vaccines and knows what goes in them, and it’s horrible.

          I put up the post about the herbs, ’cause they helped me and they might help others. And in these times it’s all about keeping the immune system healthy, and if you could recommend something else I would have liked to hear about it, but instead you resort to your usual sarcastic put-down and “I know better” attitude, to let the other one know that you disagree with them, and I find that difficult to accept!

          I couldn’t download the link, but if you want to read it you can do so on my f.b. page @ Levina Schuitvlot.

          • Lokesh says:

            Levina, I did not say that I trust scientists. And my words were in context. I do say, in relation to your latest uneducated comment, that the coronavirus epidemic is a major test of citizenship. In the days ahead, each one of us should choose to trust scientific data and healthcare experts over unfounded conspiracy theories.

            You say, “It might well be that this whole Corona thing was set up to create a vaccine.’
            Such dumb conspiracy theories require a childish mentality in order for them to be believed. If you actually believe this utter nonsense tell me one simple thing: Who would benefit from this?

            I doubt you will be able to supply a coherent answer without realizing that what you are saying is preposterous.

            Best thing you can do for your immune system is take regular exercise. I do not say that I know better than anyone else. What I said is that your preventative medicine approach comes across as lame and you can add your conspiracy theories to the even lamer section. If you find things difficult to accept, so what? The world is full of things that are difficult to accept; better get used to it if you plan on sticking around.

            • Levina says:

              Have you read the link I mentioned, Lokesh?

              • Lokesh says:

                Yes. Old hat. Anyone with a bit of sense knows all this information already. I never take ‘flu shots.

                But the corona virus is different.

                I have answered your question so how about you answer mine? Who would benefit from setting up the corona virus in order to make money out of creating a vaccine? And for fuck’s sake do not tell me big pharma or any of the other standard conspiracy bullshit answers.

                • Levina says:

                  Yes, old hat, Lokesh,seen it all, knows it al, but the content in the intervieuw is alarmingly revealing what vaccines are all about, and you still believe the W.H.O solution to the c.v. virus with a vaccine is well meaning? I find that a really gullible and very strange attitude. The top dogs of this world are not well meaning, Lokesh, I don’t need you to tell you that, surely you know?

                  And that in the past, economic crashes have always benefited the few? Surely you will see that small businesses get wiped out and overtaken by multi-nationals. Even after this is over I bet cash will no longer be accepted.

                  Hopefully, it won’t happen and we’ll all be going back how it was before, and it was just a horrible story, which it is, and a more beautiful story will come out of it. people are already getting so creative on all fronts.

                  And although I tend to believe more in what you call the conspiracy side, it’s still a belief of course, but it has my preference because it deals and shows more what’s behind the scenes. I’ve heard some American ex-CIA officer say: If people really would know all the dirty things that are going on behind the scenes they would not believe it, it’s too horrifying.

                • frank says:

                  Have you tried doing Byron Katie`s work, applying the 4 questions on your belief that the coronavirus is some kind of plot perpetrated by “them”?

                • Lokesh says:

                  Them, great band.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Levina. the arguments you put forward lack any form of substance. It is not my job to educate you…looks too much like hard work. Nothing more to say on the matter.

                • frank says:

                  This morning I went to buy some bread and ran into a guy that I know. He`s on the edge of whack, belief-wise, but I tend to go with it as he`s quite good company in small doses.

                  Today he started giving me the “They`ve been preparing this pandemic for years, virus is man-made, project fear, controlling the sheeple, they`ve already built the detention camps secretly, don`t listen to the mainstream propaganda, check the alternative media. It`s all out there” spiel. He even mentioned the Freemasons along the way.

                  I said, “But why would `they` want to crash the stockmarket and destroy business, that`s the lifeblood of capitalism?”
                  “To create a cashless society, everyone`ll just have a microchip punched into their wrist and they can track you 24/7.”
                  “What about previous pandemics like the ‘flu in 1919 that killed more people than WW1?” I ventured.
                  “They probably created that too,” he said.
                  I told him he was talking bollocks and left him to it.

                  There`s a lot of it about and it`s spreading!
                  Moronavirus, I mean.

  15. shantam prem says:

    SD, these cheap nuggets are for you to contemplate.
    Disillusionment leads to illumination, history is full with such instances.
    When one knows porn and Pravachana (Talks) titillate different brain cells, watcher on the hill arrives.

    Adoring this or that man who is no more is a childish way of licking spiritual lollipops.
    Mooji or Gucci are masters of their crafts. Being one of them is not the end of evolution but a success story of a sort.

    • Levina says:

      Yes, I just did, Frank:
      On the question on how do you feel when you believe that, the answer was when I watch people talking about conspiracy theories, or watch movies about the end of the world, false flags etc. it gives me a feeling of excitement, exhilaration, horrifying, unbelievably dark, it’s a kind of escape from the humdrum life I’m living and a kind of astonishment that people could be like that.

      Next is:
      Who would I be without this belief? The answer is I don’t really know, there is just this moment, that’s all I know.

      Next, the turn arounds:
      The c.v is a plot perpetrated by me. I weave a story around it. I have unbelievable dark forces in me. I keep things secret and are not always honest about myself. I try to control and manipulate. Good you asked, Frank!

  16. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    An explanation seems to begin to emerge about what is happening in Lombardy and Veneto.
    For the cuts in public spending in Italy (to comply with the Maastricht parameters) the intensive care units in the last 15 years have been cut by 50%.

    A second aspect, due to alarmism, was that many people, even young people, with the ‘flu (coronavirus or not) were hospitalized, infecting patients hospitalized there for other reasons.

    Source (I make a summary):
    Professor Virologist Giulio Tarro:
    “If the lethality rate is what is being confirmed (1%) the (draconian) measures adopted are not justified, we should (who wanted them) do “mea culpa” as in the past 15 years we have created the conditions for what is happening today. We cannot continue to make these war reports creating panic and stressing the best defence against all viruses, our immune system.”

    The video also contains an interview (a part continues on the next video) with Professor Philosopher Fusaro who describes possible future scenarios:
    “If in the name of the emergency the Constitution and the freedom to leave the house are suspended, one day this could also justify suspending the freedom of expression of thought. Today the new language labels as “jackal” anyone who dares to question the measures taken by the government; receiving this judgment implies being put out of the mainstream information system (Fusaro was a popular television face before this long night of democracy).”

  17. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Question: Does the problem or solution arise first?

  18. Bhadra says:

    You morons.

    99 percent of the dead in Italy had serious pre-existing health problems or were very old and sick.
    The average age of the dead is 79 years old.

    Meanwhile, shutting down everything and putting people in a state of fear will create an economic crisis ten times worse than the 2008 crash. There will be an economic crisis, millions will become homeless or starve, because all the morons overreacted.

    This year:
    11 thousand dead from Corona.
    23 thousand dead because of the common ‘flu.

    Old people and sick people die, millions die every day from various causes.

    THIS Economic crisis will destroy everything and millions will suffer.

    People die. Especially old and sick people. Get over it.

    This virus is a gift from mother Nature to remove the sick and decrepit.

    We all lock ourselves indoors. A generation of hysterical pussies.

    Worry not about the virus, worry about the biggest economic crash in human history.


    Sannyasins are as brainwashed by the media as the ordinary sheep.

    • shantam prem says:

      Bhadra, you angry young man.
      Can fellow-writers see your face, lady!
      To me you seem a bit cuckoo who reads leftist media as Bible.

    • Lokesh says:

      Thank you so much for this timely reminder, Bhadra. Your superior perspective is just what is needed on SN. Hopefully it will succeed in waking the sheep up, but I kind of doubt it. I think your comments need to be more strongly worded. I suggest you implement words like motherfucker, shithead, asshole etc to get your message of awakening across. Thanks. Namaste.

    • Klaus says:

      @Bhadra 21 March, 2020 at 5:23 pm

      Thanks for the insult!

      “Hammer on the rock.”

  19. Bhadra says:

    7000 Coronavirus deaths this year.

    101,233 Seasonal ‘flu deaths this year
    1,583,392 deaths of children under 5 this year
    8,853,346 Abortions this year
    64,387 Deaths of mothers during birth this year
    350,186 Deaths caused by HIV/AIDS this year
    1,710,852 Deaths caused by cancer this year
    204,330 Deaths caused by malaria this year
    1,041,360 Deaths caused by smoking this year
    521,008 Deaths caused by alcohol this year
    223,383 Suicides this year


  20. Klaus says:

    Maybe – after corona – we will have / find more time for the love we sent and are still sending?

    Instead of

    “No Time” – The Guess Who

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Couldn´t it well be, Klaus (yesterday at7:33 pm) that this global shock of having to deal with a photoshopped virus with a FALSE crown (everywhere to be seen now in any news-ticker) creates a lot of opportunities to realize that in the “love…we sent and still are sending”, as you put it, there has been quite imaginary stuff.

      Coudn´t it be even more important that it is NOT a question of having what is called more “time” to live it?

      What I’ve experienced these days – amidst the lots being shocked into some kind of ´fight-flight-freeze´ mode (and actions) – is also more humans appearing (as meanwhile ´usual´ ) being shocked (rooted?) into their bodies instead of clinging to their smartphones (and this very way, being not there in the HERE-NOW).

      The latter felt good – in these challenging times – sorting in and sorting out the tzunami-like information trails…looking for ‘Essence’ (which got lost – or – is in a big unknowable change?).

      Few days ago, OshoNews published some lines of a Uruguay lecture (of ´Beyond Psychology’) re the topic (in a Q&aA) about ´Times of Crisis´.

      Whosoever here in this Chat is interested can find it easily in this website.

      It´s recommendable, I´d suggest.


      • Klaus says:

        Read it.

        “more time” being a synonym for “more awareness” because more time can mean more space, more slowness, more togetherness, more sharing.

        My current situation is that my daugther aged 7 1/2 is now at home without school for 5 weeks (or more..). So, we are teaching at home the schedule which should have happened at school: great time to come to learn about each other – even within one single family – much better.

        Besides of enjoying the freedom to walk in Nature being total.

  21. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Two months ago in Bergamo another alarm for 5 cases of meningococcal sepsis, the police were needed to regulate the crowd asking for vaccinations:

    How it all starts…

    • Levina says:

      Pity I don’t understand Italian, Veet.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Hi Levina,
        The people interviewed say almost all the same things, such as how long they had been in line in the cold and since what time, someone even since midnight. One woman said that she prefers to pay a private clinic next time rather than suffer from all that cold.

        A gentleman, perhaps a retired volunteer, said that people are called 10 at a time, and that it’s a quick process…a bit at odds with the idea of queuing by midnight, if there wasn’t fear that vaccine syringes may run out….

  22. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    The journalist Nicola Porro is completely free from the symptoms of the ‘flu WITH coranavirus, but he is still positive on the it test, so he cannot leave the house. But he is very pissed off with Premier Conte-Rocco Casalino for the dystopian society ways (5 minutes of connection from facebook after more than an hour late than expected) and the contents (we will close the non-essential activities..):

    “The Italian Parliament has been closed for 2 weeks because safety distances cannot be respected? So why not get together in a sports hall? (etc.).

    The data is false!! The authorities are counting mortality on a much lower denominator, in fact they are not 42,000, but many more, and are counting in the numerator the deaths due to previous diseases (this raises both the mortality and lethality index).”

  23. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    About the invitation of wise friends of a certain age to look at the things of the world in an objective way, that is theirs.

    It would be nice if it were always true that we are unhappy and suffer from paranoia for not having the common sense of the flock, which even in a concentration camp, military or ideological, the problem is just in not looking positively at the perspective of the happy slave.

    In short, the best of new age metaphysics animated by an advaitic spirit is the key to not rebelling and living happily, indoors at home but with inner freedom, amen.

    For those who have no preclusions to look at some aspects of reality:

    Article translated from ‘DISINFORMAZIONE.IT’ (Part One)

    “In 1847 was born in Philadelphia at the Academy of Natural Sciences, the AMA, the Association of American doctors, that is, the caste of white coats.

    The following year, in 1848, the AMA immediately began to criticize and attack everything that the association does not recognize as “scientific”, establishing criteria for analyzing charlatans and miraculous remedies, explaining their public dangers.

    In 1906, the AMA published the “Medical Education Directory” of all medical schools in the United States establishing admission requirements. It was an epochal change, since everyone has always been able to profess and practice therapeutic art.

    The historical period is very interesting because the chemical-pharmaceutical industry, called Big Pharma, was born as a consequence of the “theory of germs” of the chemist Louis Pasteur, and of “vaccinology”.

    According to the germ theory, all diseases were caused by external agents (microbes) that entered the body, while according to the vaccination theory, people can be immunized against diseases if exposed to pathogens injected in the form of vaccines.

    Both of these concepts, that of Pasteur and that of vaccines, are centered on the antagonism of the theory of germs against pathogenic and/or infectious microbes. Microbes that pose a threat and therefore must be destroyed by any physical or chemical means.

    It should be remembered that in Pasteur the idea of ​​germ theory had come to respond to the increasingly frequent complaints of brewers who were demoralized because their beers expired prematurely due to the bacteria that ate the residues of the fermentation process.

    Hence the discovery (which changed the vision and conception of medicine) of Pasteur that bacteria swarm inside and above everything exposed in the open air.

    However, nobody underlines the discoveries of a great contemporary (and non-chemical) physician of Pasteur, the bacteriologist Antoine Bechamp.

    Bechamp had realized that what allows germs to proliferate is not the germs themselves but the environment in which they live, and that bacteria did not appear spontaneously as Pasteur erroneously believed.

    Bacteria are pleomorphic, that is, they are able to change shape and size depending on the environmental conditions of the soil (pH, humidity, etc.), while for Pasteur there was only the monomorphism according to which the bacteria always remain equal to themselves.

    Two visions at the antipodes. Another character of the time who played an important role was Claude Bernard.

    While Bechamp had discovered far more about the true nature of bacteria than had been understood until then, Bernard bridged the gaps as to why germs act and work that way in different environments.

    It was thanks to the work of the latter that we owe our current understanding of the pH balance and the effects of an acidic or alkaline environment on microorganisms.

    Bernard had realized that germs are harmful only when they are in an environment that allows them to do harm, so if the environment is kept in an optimal condition, people should not worry about coming into contact with microbes.

    Pure heresy: thesis and clinical trials to be rejected and burned at the stake.

    For what reason? For the simple fact that to the chemical industry that was emerging at that time, only Pasteur’s theory was good for the purpose of selling drugs.

    If the cause of the disease is an external agent, medicine can only use chemistry to destroy the pathogen. If, on the other hand, the cause of the disease is not the microbe but the soil inside the human being, as claimed and demonstrated by Bechamp and Bernard, obviously chemistry is not needed.


    The Flexner Report is a work published in 1910 that would have radically changed the course of American medicine and therefore also that of the world.

    Some very powerful industrial and banking organizations such as the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation and JP Morgan, together with the AMA itself, financed the Report.

    The assignment to conduct an evaluation of 155 medical schools located throughout North America was given to a certain Abraham Flexner. Flexner had assessed the various teaching methods used in each school in order to set up and pre-order the standardized system of medicine that its clients intended to implement.

    Before the publication of the Report, what many still call alternative medicine, it was simply ancient medicine, traditional medicine.

    It must be said that in the nineteenth century training in the medical field was carried out mainly in three ways:

    a) Internship programs in which local doctors provided students with practical education;

    b) Private institutions where doctors gave classes to student groups in their own medical schools;

    c) University traineeship programs in which students received a combination of teaching and clinical training within university-related hospital academies.

    Many do not know that at the time there were a large number of schools of thought and all sorts of approaches to medicine, each with its own results and benefits. There were over 650 medical schools in America alone.

    The evil idea of ​​the Rockefeller and Carnegie groups was to unify medicine in a single system, obviously subject to their control!

    However, they had to devise a way to convince the population that medical training needed a reform and they did so by spreading the idea that the medical faculties did not teach correctly and above all they robbed the members for their private profit.

    In this work of mental conditioning and of changing the perception of reality, they were helped by Edward Bernays (which we will see later) the father of propaganda.

    Many medical schools operated as educational departments for profit, in colleges as well as universities practically all those willing to learn and able to pay tuition were accepted.

    Before the Flexner Report there was still no real Pharmaceutical Industry. However, things changed quickly after the oil industry saw the potential profit: thanks to organic chemistry they could alter the molecules, based on the oil they extracted, transforming them into all sorts of substances. A thousand and one night business.

    Thus were born the first patents, the first chemical drugs, the first active molecules. Flexner and his elite team called Hopkins Circle created the ground for AMA to take total control of the educational system, effectively creating a medical monopoly, eliminating all competition for medical training based on the petrochemical model.

    The crucial step in this diabolical plan consisted in the use of money and the minimum funding threshold, thus ensuring that the million dollar donations of the lobbies went only to the formation of the medical schools “certified” by them.

    This caused the disappearance of many existing schools, because university studies, being unable to pursue a faculty, suspended their activities.

    Carnegie and Rockefeller had started to rain hundreds of millions of dollars on medical schools where medicine based on the massive use of drugs was taught.

    The change in funding for schools was required to continue teaching subjects exclusively oriented to the use of drugs without attaching any importance to natural medicine.

    Any medical school that taught anything other than their programme ended up closing due to very few enrolments and lack of money.

    Schools of homeopathy, chiropractic, phytotherapy were forced to close their doors. By 1925, more than 12,000 herbalists had stopped practising, and in a few years more than 1,500 chiropractors would have been persecuted by law for “quackery”.

    The 22 schools of homeopathic medicine since the beginning of the century would have decreased to 2 in 1923. In 1950 all the schools in which homeopathy was taught had been closed.
    In total, the number of medical schools went from 650 to 50 and in a few decades world health fell into the hands of the elite (Carnegie, Rockefeller, JP Morgan, etc.) who financed the Report!

    This relationship has definitively deprived medicine of its entire life, transforming it into an empty mechanism for generating profit.”

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      (Part Two)
      “Today this situation is in front of everyone who wants to see it: medicine has been swallowed up by a monopoly or it would be better to say a chemical-industrial oligopoly.

      Regime propaganda

      A key role in all this was played by the so-called progenitor of the spin doctors, Edward Bernays, grandson of Sigmund Freud and not surprisingly considered the father of propaganda.

      According to Bernays, not only is it very easy to shift people’s opinion, but by leveraging emotions, you can sell anything.

      His techniques were so effective in manipulating the masses that the leader of the Nazi propaganda Joseph Goebbels would adopt some during the Second World War as a tool to gain consensus for the party.

      Bernays is responsible for the upsetting passage of the typical American breakfast from toast and fruit juice to eggs and bacon, with tragic consequences for public health, but with huge profits for a large pork producer who had hired him.

      From the medical point of view, a real brainwashing of the masses began which soon created a society made up of people stuffed with drugs, by order of the new army of doctors indoctrinated to do only this.

      All doctors who refused to accept these directives were quickly called charlatans thanks to the AMA’s internal propaganda department, established in 1913.

      The last crucial step, that is the tombstone for freedom, was laid down by President Roosevelt in 1938 with the signing of the Food and Drug and Cosmetic Act, the law that gave rise to the sadly known FDA, the supranational Institution that established life, death and miracles on drugs and food.

      FDA passes for being a government agency, but in reality it is a creature of the propaganda of the industrial system. In fact, Big Pharma had just been created at the same time as the FDA and each of the two entities would have provided their help to keep the other alive.

      The pharmaceutical industries thus began to churn out medicines with the approval and blessing of the medical schools, of the mass media that advertised their products, and of the FDA which guaranteed their authorization, helping to create scientific credibility.

      Today we know very well that the scientific credibility of the FDA was artfully created to give the illusion to the people of an institution that controls and supervises public health.

      This controlling fake public Institution, which receives billionaire funding from the subsidiaries, only serves to authorize the poisons of the industry …


      Little more than a hundred years have passed since the Flexner Report made a clean sweep of traditional medicine, of competition, establishing a real cartel or monopoly on health.

      The current medical situation is dramatically even more disturbing than then. If before the ever longer tentacles of the pharmaceutical lobbies enveloped schools, universities, today they have even crept into institutions and governments.

      While once the doctors who practiced natural medicine instead of the chemical deadly imposed by the lobbies were accused by orthodox colleagues of “quackery”, today instead if a doctor only questions the vaccination practice, he is expelled regardless.

      Today as never before, official medicine is enslaved and serves those forces that created it. Finally the sanitary dictatorship has thrown the mask showing its true horrifying face….”

      For further information:
      ‘Cancer: prohibited treatments’, DVD by Massimo Mazzucco
      ‘The truth about cancer’, book by Ty Bollinger

      • Levina says:

        Thankx for the research, Veet!

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          You are welcome, Levina, perhaps we are the only ones here who have taken seriously what the old guy said, that is, that we have to choose between “Meditation and self-destruction”…that I translate as between Love and Power.

          And if trust is both cause and effect of Love, fear is the cause and effect of Power.

          Obviously I do not have the courage of a great spiritual warrior, as Bhadra proves to be, and I find myself here as an old lady with the envy of Bhadra’s pussy, busy wondering if there is a power that is threatening my basic need, the same one of the people i love.

          Perhaps I deserve contempt for not resigning myself to the status quo of those who would like to piss on my head, pretending to appear a benefactor who offers free urine therapy.

          Perhaps a neti-neti oriented body-heart-mind-spirit brain configuration, as is that of the great spiritual warrior in question (and possibly proselytes with a permanent grin), is the type of humanity that deserves to survive, people who will be able to reach levels of efficiency never seen before, although they already know how to sweep a room for their husband/wife without using their hands…

          Instead I am here, with you, wondering if it is true that “The Power”, as someone (Agnese Heller?) said, is the ability to fit into Maslow’s pyramid of people’s needs, applying the law of the Market once on the supply side (offering redundant objects for satisfaction) and another on the demand side (threatening the scarcity of objects or services for satisfaction).

          Perhaps a spiritual warrior knows that it is wise, when basic needs are threatened, to stay at home doing zazen in front of the toilet bowl, to go out only after the sound of the last club hit, teaching that a Buddha lives in the satisfaction of higher needs and it must not be contaminated with the world of Zorba’s needs.

          • satyadeva says:

            “You are welcome, Levina, perhaps we are the only ones here who have taken seriously what the old guy said, that is, that we have to choose between “meditation and self-destruction…”

            Perhaps you have a tendency towards self-grandiosity, Veet, which prevents you from ‘seeing straight’?

            For instance, apart from the above, assuming you (and Levina, presumably) are the only ones around here who realise and are uncomfortable with the domination of ‘Big Pharma’ due to the limitations of allopathic medicine (including In my case, I’ve been hugely benefited by acupuncture, homeopathy, herbal concoctions and osteopathy, each of which I infinitely prefer to commonly prescribed drugs which often generate unfortunate side-effects.

            However, it’s a bad mistake, one that quite often tends to be made by ‘fanatics’ (ie those with an unbalanced perspective, probably due to an inherently emotional bias) to think conventional medicine has little or no value, especially, I maintain, in the situation we find ourselves in now. Some people don’t respond to ‘alternative’ modes and are better served by drugs etc. (And voce versa, of course). It depends on the individual.

            Besides, let’s not forget that scientifically researched and tested allopathy is one of the main reasons we live so much longer than earlier generations. Indeed, you and/or I might not be alive today had it not been for such medicine.

            And it might be worth your while to bear in mind that Osho himself always chose allopathy, despite, apparently, being urged by various people to consider ‘alternative’ options.

          • Klaus says:

            Maslow’s hierarchy of needs – extended:

    • satyadeva says:

      I can only think the guy must be too much of a narcissist to bother with a real woman.

      (The bodybuilder, not Shantam…I think…).

    • shantam prem says:

      Thanks for sharing, Lokesh. Sorry to say there was no element of surprise. So many interesting news stories of human interest I go through, very rarely something clicks.

      Anyway, during 1990s when I was working in Osho Sannyas Initiation Academy, one Ma came for interview, she wanted initiation for her teddy.

  24. shantam prem says:

    Those who think Buddha, Jesus, Osho kind are still alive and affecting life on earth, let me share photo of one man; I hope he is also never born, never died.

    He is needed.
    Branch of science crafted by Him is surely doing its best.

    • satyadeva says:

      But why extol science above spirituality, Shantam? As the caption on the photo implies, at the deepest level science and spirituality are not separate, confirmed by scientists at the cutting edge of theoretical physics and quantum theory etc.

      Perhaps you’re revolting against your traditional Indian background…’Going West’, as it were?

      And let’s face it, without a new spiritual depth and purpose, this world, however technologically adept, has had it, ‘gone west’, as it were, too.

      • shantam prem says:

        SD, what nerves me the most is to think people like Mohammed or Osho are alive. To think departed ones as alive in my observation is neither spiritual nor scientific. To glorify one person who is no more as “never born, never died” is the pack of lies.

        If this is the principle value of Sannyas, I drop out.

        Because no other branch of human knowledge exploits sentiments in such foolish way, I appreciate them more than religion or spirituality.

        As metaphor, as symbolism, such expressions like “son of God” or “the Prophet of God” are fine, but not more than that.

        • satyadeva says:

          Haven’t you come across the esoteric explanation for “never born, never died”, Shantam? As far as I understand, the phrase doesn’t refer to Osho’s body, but to whatever essence it is (n.b. not ‘was’!) that entered and left his body, ie not Osho the man, the human being, but…

          …Ok, I’ll attempt it (at the risk of being quoted at ‘Private Eye”s ‘Pseuds Corner’*)…
          At physical death: Osho the Oneness with the Mystery, with the Infinite Vastness of Life and Love: Pure, unbounded Consciousness…At physical birth: Not quite ‘That’ – but absolutely ripe for ‘getting there’.

          *Pseuds Corner: A column in British satirical magazine, ‘Private Eye’, that lists some of the most woolly minded, pretentious, self-important, pseudo-intellectual garbage that’s recently appeared in the media.

          • Klaus says:

            Received a blog just a few days ago on ‘NeuroScience and Cosnciousness’:


            ‘As long as science is only investigating matter …there is no experiencing of consciousness…’

            There will be a gap in understanding.

            It is indeed very difficult to drop the ego.
            Even for the most advanced scientists.

            • shantam prem says:

              It is indeed very difficult to drop the ego.
              Even for the most advanced practitioners and professionals of spirituality!

              • Klaus says:

                No doubt about this, too.

                • Klaus says:

                  The scientist might drop it, even by chance.

                  Whereas the spiritual seeker has picked a fight with the ego; might be even more difficult, indeed.

                  Just another idea.

                • satyadeva says:

                  But this whole concept of ‘dropping the ego’ seems to be widely misunderstood. It very rarely happens suddenly and ‘permanently’ out of nowhere (as it were), it’s usually after long preparation, a lifetime of consciously ‘dropping’ this and that, dying to one’s ‘self’ in many ways. Or so I hear, anyway.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Dropping the ego?
                  Once upon a time it was all the rage. Then a new trend came along: asking who exactly is going to be doing the dropping.

                  It all sounds a bit tired today. Somehow it is all just spiritual talk, wrapped up in spiritual behaviour, which might not actually have anything to do with spirituality.

                  During this lockdown period I am doing very little, even less than usual.
                  Earlier this evening, I sat in my studio, surrounded by paintings I created over the years. Then I thought, man, I even built this building I am sitting in and on and on the doing goes. I said to myself, I have had a lifetime of doing. It is absolutely cool just to be and do a nothing, including dropping the ego and all the rest of it. If you just be, all that spiritual bullshit goes right out the window and is recognized for what it is: a slightly more refined ego trip.

                • Klaus says:

                  As my singing is hmm…not so nice, I better not sing this for you:

                  Found John Marty to do it:

                  ‘May You Never’ – John Martyn


                • frank says:

                  “In the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.”

                • swamishanti says:

                  This picture, Lokesh, is it one of your pieces of art?

                  Occasionally I have had dreams with this kind of artwork. When I wake up I think, wow, I would love to be able to recreate that.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Hi SHANTI, I did not paint that. I just like it.

                  Here is my sort of thing…

                • Klaus says:


                  Saw your video on utube with some of your drawings in the background:

                  Some Tibetan-style influences, some Aboriginal dreamtime likes.

                  Inspiring dimensions! Wow feelings….

                • Lokesh says:

                  Thanks, guys, for positive feedback. Wanted to put more recent paintings but camera battery was flat. Have not made a painting in 5 years. Currently into outdoor work, cleaning forest etc.

                  N.B: The ‘Meditation, Mindfulness and The Fundamental Cause of The Pandemic?’ article is still open for comments.

                • frank says:

                  Good stuff, I like it.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Love it.

                  I have not been painting pictures but I have been spending a considerable amount of energy painting ceilings, walls and doors over the last two years since I moved into my current home.

                  I have used a beautiful light-coloured creamy paint with a hint of red for the walls, that is ‘light and space’ paint which reflects the light a lot and looks great when the sun comes out, especially mixed with my luxurious cream carpet.

                  As well as that, last year I spent quite a while choosing the right shade of blue with which to paint my bathroom, and now I really appreciate that colourful blue when I have a bath.

                  Last year, I also decided to paint over my brown front door, which I hated, with a turquoise blue. This year, I’ll be focusing on trying to finish the interior, and then when it’s all done it’ll probably be time to move again.

    • veet francesco says:

      Pasteur, before dying:
      “Claude Bernard was right, the soil is everything, the microbe is nothing.”

      • frank says:

        Veet, that is Fake news.

        Here`s an interesting article from ‘The Skeptic’:

        “It might surprise you to find that there are people who deny that infectious diseases are caused by infectious agents like bacteria and viruses. By doing this, they are able to support other mad ideas such as the “myth” of AIDS, and also to generally attack most of conventional medicine. (I am always amused when these people forget and offer Ingaz Semmelweiss as an example of a person persecuted by conventional medicine. If there are no germs, why would hand washing matter?). As Pasteur was such a seminal and important figure in the history of microbiology and medicine he and his works had to be discredited, so a story was fabricated that he had renounced all his works on his death bed. There are various versions of the story, but they usually look something like this example:

        Pasteur had the gold. He forced other competing theories to his germ theory to be ignored. I do believe that his biographer was correct when he reported that Pasteur said: “Bernard is correct. The bacteria are nothing. The soil is everything.” Pasteur was revealing to the world that his germ theory of disease was concocted and false. Sad, isn’t it, that modern docs still believe his lie.

        Well, I obtained a copy of Pasteur’s biography, and to nobody’s surprise, he said no such thing. Of course it would not have altered the facts if Pasteur had really been demented and announced on his death bed that germs were little coloured flashing lights attached to tangles of green wires and you could see them on Christmas trees. For some reason, however, the story of how he had renounced the germ theory of disease gives comfort to those with minds so decayed that they believe that all medical knowledge was complete at the end of the American Civil War.

        Thanks to a second-hand and rare bookshop found through I was able to obtain a 1926 English translation of The Life of Pasteur by René Vallery-Radot, first published in 1900. (I hope that I am in this good a condition when I’m 78 years old.) Vallery-Radot was Pasteur’s son-in-law, and therefore much more likely to have been there during Pasteur’s final hours than some other anonymous biographer or someone who waited until 44 years after Pasteur’s death to write a hagiography of one of his rivals (now forgotten except by quackery supporters). I will quote the last four paragraphs, and I invite people to save these words and fling them back the next time some liar says that Louis Pasteur supported their delusions.

        Here is what Pasteur’s biographer, one with a real name, had to say:
        “Pasteur’s strength diminished day by day, he now could hardly walk. When he was seated in the Park, his grandchildren around him suggested young rose trees climbing around the trunk of a dying oak. The paralysis was increasing, and speech was becoming more and more difficult. The eyes alone remained bright and clear; Pasteur was witnessing the ruin of what in him was perishable.

        How willingly they would have given a moment of their lives to prolong his, those thousands of human beings whose existence had been saved by his methods; sick children, women in lying-in hospitals, patients operated on in surgical wards, victims of rabid dogs saved from hydrophobia, and so many others protected against the infinitesimally small! But, whilst visions of those living beings passed through the minds of his family, it seemed as if Pasteur already saw those dead ones who, like him, had preserved absolute faith in the Future Life.

        The last week in September he was no longer strong enough to leave his bed, his weakness was extreme. On September 27, as he was offered a cup of milk: “I cannot,” he murmured; his eyes looked around him with an unspeakable expression of resignation, love and farewell. His head fell back on the pillows and he slept; but, after this delusive rest, suddenly came the gaspings of agony. For twenty-four hours he remained motionless, his eyes closed, his body almost entirely paralyzed; one of his hands rested in that of Mme. Pasteur, the other held a crucifix.

        This, surrounded by his family and disciples, in this room of almost monastic simplicity, on Saturday, September 28, 1895, at 4:40 in the afternoon, very peacefully, he passed away.”

        The quackery supporters’ derogation of Pasteur’s memory also implies an attack on the countless millions of people, both children and adults, who lived (and continue to live) longer and happier lives because of what this man did. Part of the reason that they need to damage his epitaph is that they realise that the witchcraft and pretend medicine which they espouse will never throw up a person with a millionth of Pasteur’s qualities, even if given a million years to do it. They resent goodness and genius because the presence of these shines a searchlight on the mediocrity and duplicity which are all they can offer.”

        • veet francesco says:

          Very interesting, Frank.

          For me, the problem with certain icons is not in their value, scientific or human, but in the use made of them.

          Howsoever you are honest, you have never shown (in the literary fiction of what you write) feelings of compassion for others (their thoughts, actions, desires), and, in your skepticism towards Nature and its endogenous defence systems, you have never hidden your sympathy for chemical shortcuts.

          It is enough for me that, with those things, you stay 3-4 spans away from my ass.

          • frank says:

            You have been caught posting a fraudulent quote.
            Yesterday you were pontificating about “intellectual honesty”.

            Think about that.

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Frank, after all the fake news that you have propagated in the name of the majority, I am still here, in quarantine, to have nothing else to do than reply to your judgments; can you feel my love?

              If you have read a book that shows that P. has never said that sentence, delete it as well, it does not change the substance of the ongoing debate by a fingernail: there was a naked elephant in the corridor and you did not want to see it.

              I’m not saying you’re stupid, maybe just a little lazy, so I don’t ask you to reflect on the umpteenth logical leap implicit in the judgment.

              I wish you in the near future that you can recover a minimum of epistemological sensitivity.

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                After the emotional and passionate defense of the hero, Pasteur, made by Frank, and although in the apology of such genius some side-effects of his contributions to the industrial production of beer and wine have not been mentioned (such as Saturday night road accidents or cirrhosis of the liver, heart attacks or strokes), I propose some examples of what I mean by “epistemological sensitivity”.

                They are examples that describe the basics of a scientific approach, it is a physiologist who speaks and not a seller of alcohol or medicine who does not know a shit about the human body. But could be true what has been written, that he is “now forgotten, except by quackery supporters”.

                He is considered one of the founders of the scientific method (OHERIC) and I believe he pronounced the following words some time before Karl Popper admitted he pronounced them – I was not there when it happened.

                “The living body, although it needs a surrounding environment, is nevertheless relatively independent of it. This independence that the organism has from the external environment derives from the fact that, in the living being, the tissues are in fact isolated from direct external influences and protected by a real internal environment, made up, in particular, of the fluids circulating in the body.”

                “The constancy of the internal medium is the condition for free and independent life: the mechanism that makes this possible is the one that ensures the maintenance, in the internal environment, of all the conditions necessary for the life of the elements.”

                “The constancy of the environment presupposes a perfection of the organism such that external variations are compensated and kept in balance at all times. Consequently, far from being indifferent to the outside world, the superior animals are on the contrary in close relationship with it, so that their balance results from a continuous and delicate compensation with a very sensitive balance.”

                “Theories are only hypotheses, verified by more or less numerous facts. Those verified by the greatest number of facts are the best, but even then they are not definitive, they must never be believed absolutely.”

                “In truth, the proof that a given condition always precedes or accompanies a phenomenon does not guarantee that we can conclude with certainty that the given condition is the immediate cause of that phenomenon. It has yet to be proven that when that condition is removed, the phenomenon no longer appears…”

                “For the experimenter physiologist there is no spiritualism or materialism, spirit and matter being unknowable realities. The experimental method of science is not the search for the root causes, but for the relationships between things and the phenomena that derive from them. Therefore words such as “life”, “death”, “health”, “disease” are only “literary expressions” useful to represent the appearance of these phenomena in our mind.”

                “When we encounter a fact that contradicts the prevailing theory, we must accept the fact and abandon the theory, even when that theory is supported by big names and is commonly accepted.” (Claude Bernard)

                His vivisection practice horrifies me, but at least he stopped at the animals…but I couldn’t swear, I wasn’t even there.

                • satyadeva says:

                  What exactly are you intending to convey here, Veet? That you are a paragon of scientific virtue, who meticulously examines all the available evidence before reaching any profoundly disinterested conclusion, free from all possible bias?

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  Enough, Veet (Francesco), enough!

                  However – knowing quite well that I sit in my ´glasshouse´ as well, the moment I try to find words in this virtual realm here.

                  But you – in my eyes, are raging – throwing ´stones´, so to say. That´s how I see it, reading.
                  Covering up your anguish, fear and whatsoever similar else?

                  It will not work for your state of being, nor for anybody else´s, I´d say.

                  You are NOT the only one having to deal with these challenging, difficult times but verbally at least, appear here – like:
                  ME – First!

                  Sorry, that nobody here relates to the lines of ´Jewels´ (is it Madhuri UK, Satyadeva (?). The printed lines reminded me of this British Painter, Poet, Storyteller ?).

                  Here at my place, slowly, very slowly, the very shock brings first fruits of creativity and sometimes
                  (besides the usual mafiosi kind of shades taking greedy advantage of problems in action) also actions and ideas are happening to adapt and find better ways here and there to CO-OPERATE! (Instead of habitual ´fght-flight-freeze reactions).

                  And that´s amazing – and yery beautiful too.

                  Have a good day, Veet (Francesco) and wishing you well, and may you (and we all at our places) find a good ground (just) for the next step and then the next step re that walk-about.


              • frank says:

                I have posted an article that points out that the “Pasteur`s famous last words” quote that you posted is a deliberately fabricated lie. It is deliberate misinformation

                I have not propagated any fake news whatsoever. That is one more lie from you.

                You seem to think that writing one of your characteristic lengthy incoherent rants will change these facts and the implications of them.

                It won’t.

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  I repeat to you, Frank, that I would be happy if at this moment my problem was to appear honest and less emphatic to you, more rigorous for your friend SD and less fascist for your friend Lokesh.

                  When you have time, ask yourself how many victims this mutual aid band has made, with its self-congratulatory reflections, among the visitors of this Chat.

                  You understand that at some point it becomes boring to end up insulting every time.

                  Remember to shovel the elephant’s poop in the hallway.

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Well, Madhu, it is enough for me too, it is not my intention to fight against my people, eventually I would fight for it, if it still existed.

                  I don’t agree with you with what you write above, where you seem to say that shock takes us back to our roots, it depends on what needs you refer to, and how deep they are.

                  I believe there is a proportion between the height of the spiritual bloom and the depth of the roots. I have heard Osho say that the outcome of the persecution suffered in the USA was similar to a tree from which they tore the roots.

                  Yet it is a miracle how he managed to return among his people, what he has still managed to do with the lifeblood in circulation, the one that still makes a felled tree live.

                  Below two videos about the before and after the shock:



          • satyadeva says:

            Veet, you said to Frank, “Howsoever you are honest, you have never shown (in the literary fiction of what you write) feelings of compassion for others (their thoughts, actions, desires)…”

            This is not true. An instance where you have failed to apply even the most basic scientific methodology: examining the evidence.

            Or, to put it another way, you’ve lied to suit your own personal agenda.

              • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                Hi Lokesh,

                First laughter of the mystic rose (GER) ((mine)) of the day re your mind-FULL-ness graphic contribution, you ´phished´ from the Net!

                Crying will come,
                Silence too.



            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Weak argument, SD, denying that Frank PLAYS the role of the cynic…makes you look very cynical.

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Come halfway, please, SD, help me understand what nuance of your “fuck you!” I missed.

              What agenda are you talking about, the kid who points out that your gang has an elephant in the corridor?

              Meanwhile, after the aid from China and Venezuela, the Russian military trucks with their help arrived in Italy, unleashing the imperial fury of Edward Luttwak, our reference political scientist made in the USA, who reminded us of the film by Vittorio De Sica, ‘Sciusià’, the one where we cleaned American boots.

              While the Governor of Campania, De Luca, in difficulty in enforcing the curfew, invokes the Army, model China, but armed with flamethrowers.

              • satyadeva says:

                “What agenda are you talking about..?” Simple, Veet, rocket science it ain’t!

                In this instance it was to undermine Frank (and thereby, his criticism of you). Funny really, how someone who so often justifies rank abuse in the name of being “honest” attempts to deflect attention from his own intellectual carelessness/dishonesty.

  25. Kavita says:

    Would like to share this video, been an admirer of his sharing, have researched about him after watching him first time on youtube since two and a half years. He is a PHD doctor, not a medical doctor. Worth watching-

    Levina & VF will surely enjoy this, at least till 7.41 mins!

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Thanks, Kavita.

      Some friends of SN, of the type “it is impossible that someone has gone so deep in my life, indeed in my ass”, perhaps will begin to go into paranoia, surrounded by conspiracy theorists.

      • Kavita says:

        VF writes, “it is impossible that someone has gone so deep in my life, indeed in my ass.” For me, deleting “my” in this case is better.

        Dr. VRC says, “Diagnosis is the root disease.”

        I think & feel paranoia is a worse pandemic!

        • veet francesco says:

          Kavita, I don’t know if I understand exactly what you mean.

          In the first place, my comment was not directed to you but to those skeptics who believe it is impossible or unlikely that there may be such large-scale geo-economic operations, which in their case, translated, means underestimating the ability of a restricted world elite to organize and defend their own interests at the expense of 7,000,000,000.

          I try to problematize with a question:
          Would paranoia for a non-existent threat be more painful for you than anguish over a real threat?

          For me, the wrong diagnosis (of paranoia in this case) and the collective believing it could be correct is the root of the problem, in the sense that it creates a shield against change, a real democratic one.

          • Kavita says:

            VF, I know it’s for the skeptics.

            Well, let me clarify, now is this not only about your life, this is about all human life too.

            I can understand our responses are maybe mainly due to our geo-social condition, for the current situation, if I may say so. But frankly, I would like to overlook any economic part (expense 7,000,000,000) for now as that is inevitable.

            I would support the lockdown in India, not for cv19 but for some unpolluted air & some noise-free atmosphere in my surrondings, at least for some time!

            • veet francesco says:

              Kavita, as I’ve been saying for a few weeks now, stretching my throat, when I’m waiting outside the supermarket or post office, the limit of the choices made during emergencies, by suspending democratic guarantees, is that it creates a precedent to be used for the most diverse purposes; it is a formidable tool to control the media when the political fate of the person or group of power with their own agenda is wavering.

              Imagine that one day you and the inhabitants of Pune want to protest against excessive pollution and the Mayor tells you to stay at home because there is an emergency, any one (a serial killer, a lion escaped from the circus, the threats of a terrorist group, etc…).

              While democratically we could engage and organize ourselves politically to make a programme that includes the ecological theme in the high places of the list of things to be implemented.

              Perhaps it is a question of responsibility, as always, to be in the here and now, as it always should be, and political struggle is the right answer today, as it has not been for many years.

              My meditation technique has always been to observe what’s there, and today, maybe it’s not just me, i can no longer avoid the reality of how humiliating the social condition of the working class has become, out of the illusion that there was no alternative to the Free Market that would have made us all happy.

              • Kavita says:

                Somehow I cannot relate to any imaginary-situation as I will respond to the situation if & when it happens.

                VF, now all I can say is I hope we all always find a way in/out to deal with our situations.

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Well, Kavita, your ecological needs to block road traffic in the eyes of a rickshaw driver who barely survives are illusory, here and now.

                  In the here and now many things are done about the future, suspending democracy today will have consequences for the future.

                  Politics inspired by a worldview that guides the excellence of choices to be made today is different than politics inspired by individual satisfaction at the expense of people, here and now and those people of the after and there.

                  The question is who decides between your needs and those of everyone else?
                  The law of the market that dominates today shows that the prevailing interests are of the richest part, and in my book it is leading us to destruction.

                  The alternative, imho, is to dismantle this supranational power network literally out of law, in the sense that we should ask ourselves, to give a current example: To which Constitution/Laws does the Ethiopian President of the WHO respond, in the event that his choices (in my book, the responsibility is always individual) can they cause harm to others?

                  1) To the laws of the HIS country of residence?
                  2) To the laws of the country WHERE there has been committed a possible crime (in Italy there is the crime of “procured alarm”)?
                  3) Will he comply with the laws of the country WHERE the damage has occurred?
                  4) And how to identify/evaluate a criminal liability in a hierarchically arranged team made up of people of different nationalities and jurisdictions?

                  The only possibility for peaceful co-existence is to restore sovereignty to the people of individual states with individual constitutions and laws.

                  In 100 years, if the Constitutions and Laws have become assimilable, a Global Government could be proposed, not before.

                  Today, any politician, even the most honest, if he became the leader of a country, would not have the power to spend public money on hospitals, schools, infrastructures without being repaid with speculative moves on the financial market to the detriment of the currency, in case he still had one to print.

                  He could not decide on the duties and the quality of goods entering and leaving his country without being subject to WTO rules.

                  Same talk about how no state today seems to be able to ignore the guidelines dictated by an Ethiopian and the organization for which he works, the WHO.

                • Kavita says:

                  Look, VF, whatever I had to say I have already shared with you. I am really sorry that I have no solutions whatsoever.

              • swamishanti says:

                Update: Two leading figures in Tory UK goverment, PM Boris Johnson and Matt Hancock, the Health minister, plus the chief health advisor to the government, Chris Whitty, now positive for the virus.

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