Could Anyone, With The Right Application, Become A Satsang Giver? (Or: How To Spot A Phoney Spiritual Teacher?)

Frank recently found this critique online. Is the writer correct to declare that many teachers are phoneys, essentially actors just playing a part?

Frank writes:

Someone said this:

“Giving satsangs and enlightenment-speak is something that can be learned, a social skill that can be mastered if someone has sufficient interest in doing so.

The truth is that ‘giving satsang’ in the way many people do it today is the easiest thing in the world! Once one has learned some of the Absolute-truth rap (easily available after reading just a few books or articles), a certain basic peacefulness and ease in social settings, and, last but not least, the dialectical questioning ‘manoeuvres’ (e.g. “Who is asking the question?” “Who wants enlightenment?” “Have you traced that thought/feeling back to its source?” “What would you be if you gave up that belief?” etc. etc.) one could “give satsang” easily, endlessly, while half-asleep. It all flows out quite ‘effortlessly’ from the conditioning one sets up in the mind.

And much of it is nothing more than a fancy-looking oneupmanship game by those who’ve mastered a certain kind of ‘social virtuosity’. Those with lots of bravado and chutzpah, little humility and no capacity for self-criticism or self-doubt will do really well at this….”

Do people think that this is true?



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133 Responses to Could Anyone, With The Right Application, Become A Satsang Giver? (Or: How To Spot A Phoney Spiritual Teacher?)

  1. Kavita says:

    How To Spot A Phoney Spiritual Teacher? In my experience now, ‘Phoney’ for me is a relative term, it’s not about real or phoney, it’s more about a personal click with the teacher/teaching.

    Satsang-givers mostly cannot be put in the same league as teachers, I think.

  2. shantam prem says:

    Is there some lab test to prove Senior Rajneesh was not phoney, Punja was not phoney, but Junior Rajneesh is, Mooji is?!

    A few people are so much hooked with superstars, they think small fishes are cockroaches.

  3. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Sun is shining today seeing the new topic and need to share my joy about that truly remarkable (and important) con-temporary invitation for inner-outer research.

    Just now, I´d love to share my gratitude about it – before having another of my walkabout(s) outside for (maybe) more words to come.

    No doubt about it, that the very Issue as such is not an easy one for a sharing of unknown and sure – at the least – also unknowables – in virtual (algorhythm -based) surroundings.

    However, as I see writing-reading-writing here as a meditation in itself, I´m especially in joy about the ´contemporary-ness´of the Issue (topic).

    ´See´you later, Friends,


    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      And I´d like to repeat, what I´ve said in the last thread:
      ´No Master, worth His or Her salt (and thank you for that, Lokesh) could claim* to ” give” what is called “Satsang” (or we could also call it “Meeting in Truth” as some like to).

      Anyway,we´re meeting in Truth any moment, if we like it or acknowledge it – or not. (Even corresponding on a website like ‘ours’).

      Frank, ‘our’ fabulous de-construction agent here from the very regulars, brought that Issue up, right in time, even though, his de-construction means can be/could be sometimes too much for me…

      To make it quite clear from ( my) beginning, Osho – and meeting the Essence by His Invitation many decades ago – was and IS more than “Worth its Salt” for me, and I just say that because this very website (up to now) is called ‘Sannyas News’ and the very first years of its running saw many friends of Him as well (undervover or not!), also enemies. Even some of some obnoxious kind of so-called ‘Secret Services’…

      Humour-loaded friends of so-called ´enlightentertainment´ (also Frank – and thank you and others for that) showed up with abundant de-construction creativity. And jokes too, not to forget; and also some of those I´ve not been able to laugh at, I confess.

      I´d second, Frank, experientially-wise, what you found on the Net as you said and what Satyadeva put out as a new string.
      Maybe asking too much to know its source (address?) but sure enough that this mad and often maddening Net is full of it!
      People who feel cheated, so to say. Or even misused!

      The phase of being I am in is a ´Sammasati´ one; a remembering, one can say, which includes forgivenness in my particular story: Forgiving myself and forgiving others.

      And in this phase I try my best to keep up to the moment AND am looking for friends who have an intention likewise.
      And re the latter, I mean other humans who do not go for another trance (imagination).

      Easy and NOT easy. Both.

      With Love,


      *Osho didn´t do that in my eyes of seeing.

      As far as I am concerned, btw, I also love it when Arpana has found some juicy quotes – nowadays on the ´Net too… sometimes quite misused unfortunately when some context of quotes is deliberately left out.

      What our beloved first three editors (of SN) were up to in my eyes is to add the earth to the wings and I am very grateful for that.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:


        Due to current reasons (phone calls while I´m writing and re-reading here), I´d like to add to the little list (topic in the topic) of moving to Digital Age as gracefully as even possible, that the “HOT CHILLIE” quotes Oshonews presents here and there are my (kind of) favourites too; even then, when my mouth and throat – (Obacht! Attention: Metaphor) – are burning – like just NOW!).

        • samarpan says:

          Thank you, Madhu, for your beautiful nature-inspired messages! Sun is not shining here but drizzly overcast days have their own intimate beauty.

          Many take nature (or Nature) as their satsang-giver. I have never heard anyone ask if Nature is phoney. In any event, it is what it is.

          • frank says:

            It`s not just Nature that can`t be sanely called `phoney`.
            It seems that people here probably agree that Satsanging is a type of art form. There`s a stage, a performer and a crowd. That`s a dead giveaway!

            In music or performance, generally we don`t say that a band or singer or whatever is a phony or a fraud. There are bands you like and bands you don`t like. Some may indeed sound more authentic, but there is no ultimate arbiter of this.

            Plus it seems that it is genuinely democratic. They always say that “anyone can become the president of the USA.” That`s probably more true about becoming a satsang guru. There may be some dodgy acts like Death Metal bands that may need some kind of health warning. Other than that, it’s another relationship, isn`t?

            Who here hasn`t fallen out with or found themselves in a battle with previously loved ones somewhere along the way? It`s bound to happen in groups.too, and as Lokesh says, it’s better than dropping bombs on people.

            You pays yer money and you takes yer choice, as the cockney mystic would have it.

  4. shantam prem says:

    During my commune years, I was also very sarcastic about those blessed by Osho energy darshan going to that man in Lucknow. 15-20 years ago, i was looking at various spiritual service providers with skeptical eyes.
    Not any more.

    When people calling themselves masters can have multitude of followers without even aware about their names, followers too have the right not to waste their emotions on that product which has not satisfied them fully.

    Now I have no judgements about anyone in the business, whether it is their inner calling or need to be socially relevant.
    And yes, one feeling remain constant, I never, ever used the term ‘Master of the masters’ for Osho, even during his most glorious period.

    For me, the most phoney people are the ones who think ‘leaving the body’ is not another synonym for being dead.

    By saying this, I will still insist Osho´s place in Pune must celebrate Osho-related festivals. To remember the great contribution of any master must not be forgotten.

    Phoney for one can be real for others. Needs are different in different people at different phases of their life.

  5. bob says:

    Frank asks, “Do people think this is true?” in regard to his quoted excerpt.

    I would say yes, it’s true…probably not 100% of the time in all circumstances, but for the most part, yes, it’s true.

  6. Lokesh says:

    Deciding whether or not a guru or spiritual teacher is a phoney is an old question. Having met both Osho and Poonjaji the question as to whether they were phoneys or not never actually arose for me when I was hanging out with them. I was too busy enjoying the fact that I spinning at the centre of the love cyclone. Those men moved, helped and inspired me. That is enough to ask.

    In retrospect, I have no idea if either Osho or Poonjaji were enlightened. ‘Enlightened’, the word no longer means much to me. Around Osho there was a vibe of enlightenment happening one day soon, but, for the most part, Osho never really declared any of his disciples to be enlightened. Could have been a case of ‘this town is too small for two of us’.

    Around Poonjaji it was different. Quite a lot of people thought they had lucked out in Lucknow and actually believed they had won the bright star prize. I doubt any of them actually did, including Mooji, but then who am I to judge? The reason this happened was the Advaita vibe that almost everyone was affected by who hung out round Poonjaji for some time. There was definitely something to be ‘got’ around Poonjaji and many got it, including myself.

    What did I get? In a nutshell, the existential message that you do not need to sweat the big things in life: death: being chased through the bardos by wrathful deities, enlightenment, salvation, God with a capital G etc. It will all go just fine without you trying to work it all out and getting your fingers dirty in the process. Just enjoy the fact that you have been blessed with a human incarnation. Sing a song, enjoy your friends, eat an ice cream, just groove because it is all part of the grand illusion and it will pass. Everything does, except the consciousness that watches the show. You know, something along those cosmic lines. So, I found peace. It passed and life carried on just fine, and it never once occurred to me that what happened to me needed to be transmitted to anyone. There are enough confused people on the planet already.

    Some folks have a need to play the role of teachers and Poonjaji simplified the task for those inclined that way, including the likes of Mooji. It is not that difficult. Say the right lines, act real calm etc. Some play their roles better than others. It is one of life’s greatest games. I do not see any real harm being done by the satsang-givers. Certainly a lot more fun and creative than dropping bombs on people. Good luck to them.

    What it boils down to is this: The real master is not the one who gathers the most disciples, but rather the one who creates the most masters in their own right. If that is not happening there is something fishy going on. Even a phoney teacher can help you, because sooner or later you will grow up, understand your teacher is a phoney, realize you needed to learn that and move on to the next episode. Just make sure it’s an interesting story.

  7. frank says:

    I think the alternative title of ‘How to spot a phoney spiritual teacher?’ is missing the point a little.

    The question arising from the quote is more: ‘Could anyone, with the right application, become a satsang giver?’*
    This brings in ideas about the nuts and bolts of what the particpants actually do and how they act.

    Considering it, satsang artists, whether “phoneys” or “genuinely awakened ones”, usually sit on chairs facing their people or on a stage in a higher position in a clear theatre of rank. They all present themselves as superior to their followers even if that means they are simply more normal. They keep a clear one-upmanship going with their audience.
    Can anyone give an example of when their guru was one-upped by an audience member?

    The artists in the chair don`t show self-doubt. They invariably answer questions where the format is roughly the same: They attempt to relieve the enquirers or seekers of their problems which are in essence all caused by the fact that they have not yet achieved the same exalted spiritual state as the artist .

    This is something of a formula that is, in most cases, literally staged. It follows a format. The satsang artist plays a part. Wise, compassionate, much presence, only emotional in order to elucidate a spiritual point to the audience. Like the theatre that it very much resembles, the aim is to affect the audience and it does. All this leads to people in the gathering, affected by the show, experiencing `altered states`, from relaxation to blasting realisations and a lot in between.

    For example, if you have seen the movie ‘Holy Hell’ you will have seen a guru who was a gay ex-porn star with loads of plastic surgery walking around only in speedos acting a lot like Sacha Baron Cohen`s character `Bruno`. To anyone with half a brain still functioning you would think he was an obvious scammer and user, as he indeed turned out to be. Yet he followed the formula. Thus, there were plenty of followers lining up to tell that they had had their third-eye opened, experienced oneness, seen auras and realised the playful nature of existence etc. etc.

    It seems that the men and women that you might personally think are “authentic”, “fully enlightened”, “the genuine article” etc. and the less authentic or “phoney” ones, both use similar types of human interaction or theatre, and act very similar parts, in the eyes of the faithful certainly, thus evoking similar reactions.

    Enlightened ones and satsang artists never operate without this theatre aspect.

    So, nit is reasonable to surmise that the format in itself is important in yielding the results, as is the case with any `show`.

    This would support the idea/assertion that anyone, with application, can learn to do it.

    *As early readers will have noticed, the main title of the article has been changed, in accordance with the writer’s views. (The original title is retained (in brackets) as we feel that the article also implies this question, although it’s not Frank’s main point).

  8. Prem Dharma says:

    This is a fundamental question, of paramount importance: How to tell whether someone is enlightened.

    I will write a small guide for beginners, a simple sure method to tell whether someone is enlightened.

    The mind is a permanent fog, and it can trick us in millions of kinds of ways.

    First step: Discard any criteria based on behaviour, what that person eats, says or does, or whether that person behaves like your favourite enlightened people of the past.

    With this step, 90% of the bullshit is already out of the way.

    Step 2. If you cannot meet the “enlightened one” in person.

    The difference between the unenlightened person and the enlightened person is like the difference between water and vapor. When water reaches 100 degrees, it becomes vapour and does not obey the physical laws of water.

    A fake guru can imitate the way an enlightened person speaks, behaves, acts… but there are a few things that an enlightened person cannot imitate.

    They are subtle but with a little perseverence and receptiveness, you can be aware of this.

    I remind you to come back to the first step, again and again: do not judge an enlightened person by what that person’s actions, speech or looks.

    If you cannot be in the physical presence of the person – this can work in your favour.

    One thing an enlightened person can do, and an unenlightened person cannot imitate — when you look at the enlightened person’s photo — you will feel the enlightened person’s energy envelop you.

    Even if the enlightened person does not know you exist: when you look at his/her photo – you will receive an energy darshan.

    This is something that a fake guru cannot imitate.

    Even if an enlightened person is dead – looking at a photo, you will receive an energy darshan.
    A dead unenlightened person definitely cannot do this. This is one of the reasons fake gurus are usually forgotten after they die, whereas people like Krishna are still going strong 5 millenia after they leave this Earth, mainly because their energy darshan nourishes millions of people.

    Whenever you look at pictures of Osho, Papaji, Neem Karoli Baba, Yogananda, Ma Anandamayi, Meher Baba etc. you will feel this.

    If you are not so perceptive, try taking the photo with you everywhere you go for three days, and look at the photo whenever you can.

    If you are perceptive you will feel it in 5 minutes, but if you are not that perceptive, try to take the photo with you wherever you go and meditate on it every moment for a few days. You will feel an energetic presence, uplifting you.

    This will not happen with a fake guru, and it cannot be imitated.

    Now try it with a picture of Mooji, or Adyashanti, or any of the fake gurus.

    Do the test: Meditate for a few days with a photo of the enlightened people I mention above (Osho, Papaji etc.) – and then do this with a picture of your favourite fake guru.

    You will feel the difference.

    This “going beyond time and space limitations and giving energy darshan through a photo” cannot be done by an unenlightened person. It is a sure criteria.

    Return to step one – there is no way to decide whether a person is enlightened or not by judging speech, behaviour or appearance.

    This is where 99% of people are deceived.

    Now, this is a difficult idea to accept with your mind, and for your mind to wrap around this idea, but NONE of the present people who declared themselves enlightened and are famous on the internet: none of them are enlightened.

    This is difficult for the mind to accept.

    Here is the proof:

    The only person that I know of – who is enlightened and still in the body — is Lakshmana Swamy – a disciple of Ramana Maharshi.

    Make the experiment with the photo. Take the photo wherever you go and meditate with it for a few days.

    You will feel the same energy that Osho has, or Papaji, or Ramakrishna etc. etc.

    The reason you don’t feel this when you use a photo of Mooji or (insert your favourite guru) is because they are not enlightened.

    It is a tough pill to swallow, but it is the truth.

    The number of enlightened people is very, very small. Enlightened people are rare.

    Step 3. If you can meet the enlightened one in person.

    If you can actually meet the “enlightened” person face-to-face, there is also a very simple criterion to decide whether it’s the real deal.

    The worst time you can make this test is when the guru is giving discourse or is surrounded by hundreds/thousands of disciples.

    This is because those thousand disciples are giving their attention and energy to the guru.

    This creates a certain aura around that person — but the aura is received from the attention/energy that the disciples give to that person.

    Even an ordinary person becomes an extraordinary energetic/magnetic presence when thousands of disciples give that person constant attention/energy.

    This is exactly how the phenomenon of fake guru works. I have visited many fake gurus. The energy of the people who give attention to that guru creates a magnetic aura that convinces other people that guru has an energy presence.

    The more people come, the more the fake guru’s aura grows — and people take that energy to be the guru’s own energy.

    This is how people are deceived.

    So going to satsang and deciding whether that person is enlightened or not, can be misleading if you are not very perceptive.

    I’m not saying it cannot be done, but this is the worst situation when you can try to assess a guru — when he is surrounded by thousands of disciples.
    You will take the energy that guru receives from attention to be a spiritual aura.

    Of course, as someone mentioned earlier, when you went to Osho or Papaji, their energy was so powerful, you could cut it with a knife.
    But even in this case, it was a combination between Osho (or Papaji)’s energy with the energy of thousands of disciples.
    This is why it can be confusing, if you are not very perceptive.

    Let’s say you are able to meet that “enlightened” person in their daily life, when they are not giving discourse. Maybe you are lucky to have a one-on-one, or maybe there are a couple of people also present.

    This is the criterion:

    When you are around an enlightened person, you will feel your mind become effortlessly silent.
    He is like a vortex of silence. It is a very real, palpable silence.

    Again, this cannot be imitated by an unenlightened person.

    An unenlightened person still has an active mind, and cannot imitate this vortex of silence.

    You might even have the sensation that “I cannot think. My mind stops.”

    If you are very receptive, you will maybe completely forget everything you were going to ask, and have difficulty thinking. I say this from personal experience.

    Again: fake gurus cannot imitate this. This vortex of silence, which also makes your mind silent.

    Most people are confused – either making the first error of judging according to behaviour/speech/appearance — or making the second error of mistaking the enormous bundles of energy a fake guru receives as attention/energy from his disciples – to be the guru’s own spiritual power.


    Last but not least, if you think you are enlightened, here is a very simple criteria to tell whether you are enlightened or not:

    It is a very clear and certain criteria.

    You might have had many profound spiritual experiences of bliss. You are like a druggie who is high on the meditation drug – so it is very easy to be misled.
    Are you enlightened tho’ ?

    It is simple.

    There are four states: wakefulness, sleep with dreams, deep sleep without dreams, and turyia.

    Turyia is the fourth state – it is beyond wakefulness, dreams or deep sleep.

    An enlightened person is in a state of turyia.

    That means even when the body is asleep — the enlightened person is always awake.

    A part of the enlightened person never sleeps.
    It is an experience of watching your body go to sleep.


    If, when you go to sleep at night, you lose consciousness, and you only regain consciousness the next morning when you wake up: You are NOT in the state of turyia.

    If you are enlightened, a part of you never sleeps. Your consciousness never sleeps.

    You will watch your body go to sleep, and sleep, but a part of you never sleeps.

    This is a very simple criterion.

    You cannot fake it and you cannot deceive yourself.


    “Could Anyone, With The Right Application, Become A Satsang Giver?”

    If he manages to convince – through speech, appearance and behaviour – at least a hundred people that he is enlightened, a snowball effect follows.

    The more people give him attention/energy, the more his aura grows – and people mistake this “aura of received attention” to be his personal power.

    So the answer is yes: anyone can do it.
    If he convinces a certain number of people, his aura grows, and it becomes a vicious circle. The more people become his disciples, the more his “aura of received attention” grows, and this attracts more and more people to him, like a moth to a flame.

    Beware of gurus who have an aura that was received from the energy/attention from disciples.

    One famous case comes to mind: Amma, the hugging saint. She receives energy from millions of people, so whenever someone hugs Amma, they feel a powerful energy.

    Is it Amma’s personal energy, or is it attention/energy received from her disciples? It is very difficult to tell the difference, unless you meet Amma in her daily life, when she is not surrounded by many disciples.

    • shantam prem says:

      Prem Dharma, are you sannyasin?
      I mean orphan from the school of Osho!

      • anand yogi says:

        Welcome to Sannyasnews, Prem Dharma!

        Please proceed to welcome centre for interrogation by beloved Swami Inspector Shantam. Be sure to give him name, rank, number, religion, native place, date of birth, name of father and caste!
        And also send him photograph so that he can meditate on it!

        Dharma, you are perfectly correct when you say:
        “First step: Discard any criteria based on behaviour, what that person eats, says or does, or whether that person behaves like your favourite enlightened people of the past.“

        This is utterly true as I know from own experience!

        Only yesterday in compound at Bungbungalore ashram I happened on Swami Bhorat in the back of his Rolls Royce, cavorting with a couple of Tamil actresses, although one of them did have quite a deep voice. The floor was littered with empty bottles of Armagnac and gin, nitrous oxide canisters, empty bidi packets, chewed paan leaves, porn mags, piles of used notes, watches, firearms and empty packets of red and blue pills!

        He looked at me, and away from watching cricket and reading holy literature about latest surge of true spirituality surging across Kashmir like wildfire and latest spreadsheets about recent noodles sales in mighty Bhorat, and with bloodshot eyes glazed with compassion, and, pretending to be drunk and angry,shouted: “What are you looking at, sisterfucker?”

        Pleased at the energy I was being showered, knowing well that Bhorat is a true guru pretending to be a fake guru in order to teach important lesson number one of not being attached to, or deceived by behaviour of guru, I scuttled off down to chemist to fulfil duties and buy 2 more tubs of Vaseline for master and pick up his weekly box of medication!

        Swami Bhorat is intrigued by your psychic siddhi of being able to tell true enlightenment from false by looking at old photographs and even pictures of Krishna on calendars on walls of chai shops!
        Certainly, you have attained a very high level of consciousness!

        The Nine Men of Mighty Bhorat are keen to meet you! They are on the look-out for a disciple of your calibre who can be charged with the responsibility to bring ultimate truth to unconscious masses!
        Are you available to come to Bungabungalore ashram for darshan and job interview?

        Swami Bhorat has already prepared private penthouse suite for you with own widescreen TV, mini-bar, gas spigot, paan table, cricket ‘Wisdens’, and 24 hour apsara room service!

        Hari Om!

    • swamishanti says:

      Try this one. It’s known as the `animal test’. Watch your satsang-giver or master around animals closely. Take them out for a trip to the zoo if you have to, to see if your master has `the St Francis Touch’.

      Ramana Maharshi used to have a cow around in his ashram, which used to come and have a darshan with him. One day the cow came when the Maharshi was reading a newspaper, he told the cow that he was too busy, but the cow came anyway and put his head close to him.

      Ramana placed his hands on the cow’s head for some time, and tears were seen to be flowing from the eyes of that cow.

      At the Ranch, there was a little deer that always came into Osho`s garden and would sit directly underneath his bedroom window for darshan.

      There was also a group of peacocks living around the house. There was a particular white male peacock, who made it a point to plant himself in the driveway behind Osho`s house, where Osho would drive in to park his Rolls Royce at the end of his daily drive.

      The peacock would block the road with his car, open his tail featherand do a dance around the car until Vivek would get out of the car to try to shoo it out of the way.

      In the winter, all the peacocks would sleep in their special home, a heated A-frame. But that particular white one spent his time roosting in a little tree out in the open, which was the closest point off the ground to Osho, his back and tail covered in snow, facing Osho`s room.

      In Poona Two there was a bird of paradise with a long tail, that would come every day to perch on a nearby tree at the same time when Osho used to eat on his balcony.

      When Osho finished his lunch and left, the bird would also fly away and leave the tree.

      On days when Osho was too ill to take his lunch, the bird would flutter and jump around in a crazy and agitated way. When Osho returned to the tree, the bird would settle down again and relax for its daily darshan.

      • Lokesh says:

        Yes, SS, animal contact can show much about people. I once visited a crocodile farm with Poonjaji and a few other people in Lucknow. I am not sure but I think I saw some of the crocs wagging their tails when the master passed.

        One of my friends went for a walk with Poonjaji and every once in a while the old fellow would feed some sugar to ants.

        My friend asked Poonjai why he did not feed one particular group of ants and Poonjaji replied, “Oh, those ones weren’t hungry.”

        • swamishanti says:

          Once I was staying in a large hotel, in the hill station of Matheran. The building was originally built by the British as a retreat from the heat of the summer plains.

          A rat kept entering my room at night from a hole under the door. I used to bang on the floor to chase it out.
          I patched up the hole, even put books behind the hole, but the rat was persistent and kept pulling out the material I had patched up the hole with and managed to get in and run around the floor.

          I was sleeping on the floor. One night the rat ran right onto my blanket, which I was under.

          I threw the blanket up and the rat was flung up into the air, I heard his body smack against the wall, and then drop down to the floor. Then he ran out.

          Prior to that, I had had a huge room on the other side of the same place, with lots of large windows. The room faced the jungle and there were lots of monkeys. I used to watch their gymnastics and games. Every day they would come and try to raid the kitchen and the hotel.

          When I used to meditate, monkeys would sometimes come and sit on the window sills for quite a while and watch me. Sometimes a whole family would come and sit silently watching, the mothers suckling babies at their breasts.

          I would feel the monkeys watching me as I watched my mind.

    • satchit says:

      Good comment, Prem Dharma,

      Here are a few photos: In memoriam.

  9. satchit says:

    “So, it is reasonable to surmise that the format in itself is important in yielding the results, as is the case with any `show`.
    This would support the idea/assertion that anyone, with application, can learn to do it.”

    Yes, the format is important but if there is no knowing in the giver then the format becomes destructive. Learning the outer rituals is like teaching a child to make love. It may look like making love of grown-ups, but the essence is missed.

  10. shantam prem says:

    Satsang is not a rocket science.
    It is like nurses who wanted to become doctors still can raise their status by learning in a week to be Reiki Master!

    As I see in Germany, this trend has lost its stream. Future is in Russia!

  11. shantam prem says:

    Basic thing is to feel collective warmth, a kind of oneness, when life is lonely and boring.

  12. Lokesh says:

    Apart from Dharma’s comment coming across like a very patronising piece of work that contained elements that are commendable, one can’t help noticing the complete lack of anything even remotely humorous in his writing. From what I have seen, good teachers usually have a good sense of humour. Perhaps Dharma is taking the whole thing too seriously. The antithesis of our beloved court jester, Yogi.

    That said, Dharma did make me smile when he stated, “Enlightened people are rare.” Really?

  13. shantam prem says:

    With Osho starting Stardom Satsang Synchronized System among gurus, with Jaggi Vasudev it will end. Humanity is evolving fast enough not to give too much space and too much hard-earned money anymore to truth cartels.
    Guru business is looked at with suspicious eyes everywhere in the developed countries. New entrants are having very low profile and handt-to-mouth existence.

    In India also, this is going to happen, though at present, Hindu Guru Bazar is doing brisk business, politically as well as selling past in articulate English.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam declares, “New entrants are having very low profile and handt-to-mouth existence.”
      This is untrue. Mooji is a relative newcomer and is building up a large and profitable following. ‘The Times’ recently ran an article on him, which dispels the low profile idea.

      • Shantam prem says:

        Lokesh there are hundreds of others who could not afford advertisement budget for more than a year.

        What Mooji is doing or Rajneesh junior is doing, many of us can also do, maybe even better. Question is, why we are not jumping into?

        In my case, I know my genetical limitations, there is wish for success but no inner discipline and hunger to do the marketing and promotion. And also I follow ethics and have scientific temperament, I cannot sell bullshit of getting enlightenment on certain date.

        • satchit says:

          “What Mooji is doing or Rajneesh junior is doing, many of us can also do, maybe even better. Question is, why we are not jumping into?”

          But who then will do your job at Europa Park, Shantam, if you become a satsang-giver?

          Ok, if you ask Swami Bhorat for a job exchange, maybe you can make it!

      • frank says:

        The `low-profile` idea is completely way off the mark.

        The satsang/guru thing has never been bigger and hotter. In the last few weeks alone there have been lengthy BBC and UK major newspaper articles on Teal Swan, Bentinho Massaro as well as Mooji.

        The online factor has been a large part of all this. These guys are reaching massive target audiences that Bhagwan and Krishnamurti, for example, could only have dreamed about back in the day. This ups the stakes, big time.

        The whole thing is so huge that Be Schofield a transsexual `journalist` who has only ever written exposes on cults including the ones mentioned above, has become an anti-cult guru in here own right. Her articles appear in major publications everywhere. She is quoted as an expert, which she managed just by hanging around with a few teachers and writing about it. It`s pretty cut-throat stuff.

        With the ubiquitousness of the net, it’s hard to see this abating. Massaro is now exclusively online and still has a massive devoted following.

        Scofield has gone from nobody to respected journalist in the twinkling of an eye, exposing alleged abuse right left and centre, with her own site `The Guru` receiving millions of hits and fighting quarter million dollar lawsuits and whatnot.
        Detractors claim that she herself has a secret life of drugs and BDSM debauchery in which she is also some kind of abusive guru.

        News or fake news? It`s all hard to tell.
        The anti-cultists do sound as bonkers as the cultists and locked in a bizarre symbiotic relationship with fame,power, sex and money at the heart of it.

        It`s all a bit sordid, but I have to say that the old cosmic playwright, the leela scriptwriter who`s coming up with this stuff certainly isn`t losing his/her touch when it comes to no-holds-barred enlightentertainment!

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          Bad news from Italy for you, Frank, Osho becomes mainstream here.
          The largest and most important Italian newspaper will publish a weekly Osho book, 20 titles.

          • frank says:

            That`s not bad news.
            That`s another example of the phenomenon that I was writing about.

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Negative phenomenon, you meant, Frank, I guess.

              Imagine a world where orange robes and malas are back in fashion, with all those mantras and young people who fuck wildly around…such envy.

              Here is another aspect that could help you to distinguish an authentic Master from a fake: a sense of abundance that spreads around him, the only antidote to the antagonistic/envious approach. In the blessing of his spiritual presence, in that fulfilment, there are no appetites other than those that can be satisfied without fighting, in that fulfilment everyone is aware of their own light and beauty, no compromise for the pussy or cock would be acceptable.

              If you asked the question, perhaps, it is because the difference between an authentic Master and a fake one for you matters, as for me.

              In fact, if I do an honest fact checking of my best days (plenty of light, smiles, hugs…) I conclude (foolishly, you would say) that they are due to the choice of a small Indian man who has decided to share the fragrance of the garden he had discovered blooming within his heart.

              To some, this may seem like a too obvious and unrewarding script, due to a certain need for intellectual refinement typical of a well-educated mind, trained in counter-intuitive revelations, not within everyone’s reach.

              If the Joy that the Masters talk about is not the substance of existence, why should it be of interest to ask how many ways can satsangs be given?

              • satyadeva says:

                “no compromise for the pussy or cock would be acceptable.”

                What exactly is that supposed to mean, Veet?

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  SD, just a little drawing, the frame is: competition for sexual satisfaction, of men, women and transsexuals.

              • Lokesh says:

                Veet, does it ever occur to you that you might be brainwashing yourself?

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Possible, Lokesh, but I understand your scandal, for a Scotsman it would be a big expense, a big waste of soap, and without any certainty that the streaks of cynicism superimposed on the oblivion of age can be washed away.

              • frank says:

                You say:
                “Imagine a world where orange robes and malas are back in fashion, with all those young people who fuck wildly around”
                I don`t need to. I was there.

                By your account, that was when you were still kissing the Pope`s ring and square-bashing.
                It`s understandable.

                • Kavita says:

                  Just by chance watched ‘The Two Popes’ today, it was a very well made, true story.

                  Brilliant performance by both Popes.

                  Anthony Hopkins reminded me of an older version of Lokesh, if I may say so!

                • satyadeva says:

                  But could these two Popes have been credible satsang-givers, Kavita?

                • Kavita says:

                  SD, Not Pope Benedict but Pope Francis could qualify!

                • frank says:

                  Didn`t Pope Francis thump someone in public the other day?
                  That could have been a bit of crazy wisdom a la Andrew Cohen.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yes, Kavita, you are not the first to note the resemblence. 15 years ago I was sitting in a cafe in Santa Monica and a guy came up to me and asked for an autograph. I scribbled something on a napkin and handed him it. He was over the moon. Some people will believe anything.

                • frank says:

                  I hope you invited him for a glass of Chianti.

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Bravo, Frank, if you believed your hypothesis about the weight of my conditioning before meeting Osho, then you would also understand my gratitude, something deeper than genital rubbing.

                  In the absence of a spiritual connection with the Satsang-giver the quality of social relations between the ‘Satsang receivers’ will not be that of satisfied people, therefore exposed also to envy.

                  Better to deny those days if sex was a way to escape from yourself.

                  In the future I intend to show more solidarity with the renegades, for all the implications this means in their lives.

                  Who do you mean by “the renegades”, please, Veet Francesco?

            • Lokesh says:

              When some otherwise civilised person breaks loose from their norm and does not give two fucks about convention.

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                I know two meanings for this word.
                The first one is close to ‘traitor’, the second one refers to those who contemptuously refuse a previous political or religious adhesion.

                But in my case I use that word for people who continue to be attracted to the phenomenon of a Sangha gathering around the light of a Master but pretending to have found much more in other places.

          • swamishanti says:

            Moving around India on different journeys over the last twenty years I have seen Osho Rajneesh books in every bookstall and every railway station. I was surprised to even come across a book of Osho inside one of the main Hindu temples of India, Meenakshi temple in Madurai, which is a major tourist centre and attracts millions of pilgrims every year.

            I have heard that the number of Osho centres in India is also growing and expanding every year.

            This giveaway of Osho books by the main Italian newspaper, perhaps shows that the Italian public and indeed the public of several other countries around the world where Osho’s books are widely read, seem to be a bit more ‘ready’, at least intellectually, for Osho, than say, the Americans, who still have a very long way to go up the mountain, with a strong Christian conditioning and high density factors.

            Every other culture around the world is older and more mature than the U.S., and one has been sometimes quite blown away by the seeming simplicity of some of its citizens. One wonders if the development of the cerebral cortex is really impeded in some way by that popular diet of peanut butter & jelly sandwiches.

            There has been a popular idea that we are entering a ‘new era’ of consciousness, a new phase. I am somewhat skeptical and wonder if any such thing is actually happening, or whether people are simply projecting their own experiences onto the world.

            Here’s Samdarshi, one of the gurus I consider to be authentic, talking on how he perceives the world becoming seemingly more conscious and open to satsangs:


            • Klaus says:

              It could be because we are in the transition to the ending of the KaliYug, which is expected to be on 21st of December 2035….


              • swamishanti says:

                It’s interesting as although many believe that the Kali Yuga is leading into the next Sat Yuga, and this transition has already taken place or is happening in the next 100 to 200 years, there are others, including Paramahansa Yogananda and Rudolf Steiner, who believed that the Kali Yuga had already ended and we have already entered the Dvarpara Yuga, in an ascending cycle, back to the Satya Yuga

                So the cycle would be:
                Satya Yuga
                Treta Yuga
                Dvarpara Yuga
                Kali Yuga
                Dvarpara Yuga
                Treta Yuga
                Satya Yuga

                Rather than:

                Whilst many Christians believed that the Earth was created only around 6,000 years ago, and in the desert God gave Moses some tablets with no mention of any Yugas. And that Noah was given a message to build a big boat.

                Maitreya Ishwara, who was highly rated out of many satsang givers by Parmartha, myself and others, was given a message from God that it is actually only two yugas, Satya Yuga and
                Kali Yuga, and we are just in the transition period in the cycle.

                • Klaus says:

                  If got the clue from this life presentation by Armin Risi:


                  Prophezeiungen der Transformation…Armin Risi

                  In German….

                • frank says:

                  It seems a lot more likely that we are in in fact in Booga Booga Yuga.

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  Hmmm, Swamishanti (at 11:47 am),

                  I guess one needs to practise/embody (oneself) a Whirling Dervish to get all these Yuga´s rows in line and circling into Balance & right into the beautiful ´Nothing´?

                  Maybe also the Boogie will do, Frank´s premise?

                  Who knows?

                  Got home just now and have a cake and after that a nap (needed!).

                  In the courtyard here the kids have been building quite a big ´snow-man´ and just now they are refining their piece of ART.

                  (The snow-man´s head is still missing…the kids don’t need it – apparently…).


                • swamishanti says:

                  Apparently, the cycle of yugas continues, like groups on a string, and a certain number of yugas is contained in a Kalpa, like seeds in a pod.

                  There are thousands of Kalpas, each containing hundreds or thousands of cycles of yugas. Each time the cycle moves into the Sat Yuga, humanity reaches a new level of evolution.

                  After a certain amount of yugas, the universe is destroyed and then a new universe is created, and a new set of Kalpas and Yugas begins.

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          @ Frank (18 January 2020 at 1:29 pm)

          “The online factor has been a large part of it” (the Satsang ´movement) you said and therewith precisely made a point!

          However, it didn´t start like that in the very beginning but happening was what I call another of the numerous deterioration Issue(s) and it didn´t take much time to creep in energetically, and along with that, changing audiences/participants.

          Re the latter ones, often people just coming and going in the midst of the meetings – equipped with their smartphones, sitting there for a little while and not rarely working on their phones to stay connected with some other filter bubble virtual-wise, while half-ears open (and less of it) “listening” to someone ´on stage´.

          Those again, trying his/her best to get in contact with him/ herself and as well as with the current teacher/facilitator.

          Not to speak (often) of a sheer possibility of ‘Presencing’, of ´Teaching and Quests´ and/or a Response-Ability in such an awareness-deficiency, atmosphere-scattered mode.

          It was there and then I more or less dropped going to these meetings, falling into – one can say – a kind of depressive- nostalgic mood, feeling not to be able any more to find and meet fellow-travellers.


          However, as we are travelling anyway together, the way we like it or not, so – that has not been and is not the ´End´. Not only my writing and reading here on this SN-chat web truly reveals the latter.

          And also otherwise it also has not been/is not the end up to now for further moves and inner as outer researches to find people to meet face-to-face and heart-to-heart.

          We are social animals, aren´t we?

          What I´d like to share with you in particular, Frank, is that responding to sexist, racist contributions (like some of those happening from Shantam´s place) with even more sexist, racist contributions might be very counter-productive.

          That´s at least my experience throughout the last years reading SN/UK.

          The topic string you offered though was a very important one in my eyes; the Issue to grow a human way into so-called Digital Age and stay Human is touching and moving me deeply.

          Thank you for reading, Frank.


  14. Kavita says:

    ‘Guru Business’ will survive & thrive till the death of planet Earth/as long as the concept of evolution of human consciousness exists!

    “Humanity is evolving fast enough not to give too much space and too much hard-earned money anymore to truth cartels.”‘

    Sometimes I think Shantam makes such statements for creating some flutter!

    • shantam prem says:

      “‘Guru Business’ will survive & thrive till the death of planet Earth/as long as the concept of evolution of human consciousness exists!”

      Kavita, please let me know, is the above sentence written by me? If it is so, I can’t remember where.

      Yes, Shantam creates flutter, it is like finding the wood for the camp fire. Words serve their purpose if they provoke thinking, shake established notions without being violent.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        “Yes, Shantam creates ´flutter´, it is like finding the wood for the camp fire” – is to be read yesterday at 10:09 pm.
        Misleading though, Shantam Prem, might be, could be that the algorhythm-wise term of “flutter” used as a scoring/rating/programming device as a verbal-virtual communication ´tool´ is quite something else as the term
        “flutter” is a body-inclined physiological (medical) term for a good breathing-in, breathing-out.

        The latter – for ordinary people (like me) – a quite very existential condition for living in consciousness IN the body. Good, substantial, sustainable living, I mean.

        Yes, most of us may have heard of these Yogis who can do without breathing for quite a very long time; but pretty much, better say, all of us ( contributers here at SN/UK) don´t belong to that rare species. You neither, I guess.

        And yes, otherwise, finding “wood” for a camp fire of story telling is yet a wonderful thing to ´do´. No doubt about it. Pity is, when we´re burning the wrong stuff in that truly “Imaginary Museum”.

        Snow covers the lawn in the coutyard today outside.
        Sky shines in a light grey.
        Few snow flakes

        The gift for another day of breathing-in, breathing-out….


        • Kavita says:

          ”Misleading though, Shantam Prem, might be”
          At first I thought so too, used the word ‘ruffle’ & then thought to give him the benefit of the doubt so requested MOD to change that to ‘flutter’!

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            Okay, Kavita, didn´t know that it was you – behind some change of words under Shantam Prem´s address…and in your communication as or/and with MODs.

            Anyway, it led me to a little research and thank you for that.

            Re Shantam Prem’s further reaction, claiming aggressively that I might not use my (legal) name, I can assure you all that I did and do. And as I already said, long, long ago: Such happend by chance and in my utter ignorance of any possible IT-tech variations to use the Chat here.


        • shantam prem says:

          Madhu, I am not surprised to see your superior nature regarding my post. There is not a single post of yours and Frank which are not from higher realms, albeit faceless with fake identities. I don´t think Frantzen is your family name either.

          “Flutter” was a new word for me. I have to check internet dictionary. Moreover, Shantam and kavita know each other for more than 25 years thanks to the commune of late Shri Osho Jain of Jabalpur/Pune fame. Words can be used in many formats, even dirty words can be used in psychological and hilarious formats.

          This day of 19th January Master left the body for unknowable realms.

    • Kavita says:

      Shantam, “Guru Business’ will survive & thrive till the death of planet Earth/as long as the concept of evolution of human consciousness exists!” is my response to your “Humanity is evolving fast enough not to give too much space and too much hard-earned money anymore to truth cartels.”

    • Lokesh says:

      I do not see Shantam as some kind of agent provocateur. I see him as a reactionary. Anything to get a reaction, no matter what kind of bullshit he comes away with, as long as he gets a reaction is what counts.

      There is nothing commendable about that. Any fool can create a reaction.

      • shantam prem says:

        Mirror, mirror on the wall
        Who is the wisest of them all?
        Surely the ones who were talking with Bhagwan Rajneesh!
        One more reaction.

        • Lokesh says:

          Time you got some new programmes, Shantam. To say any kind of creative feedback constitutes a reflection of the one who delivers the feedback harks back to encounter group Pooona One.

          The problem with adopting such a stuck attitude is that you will never learn anything new about yourself and thus remain the same old, same old, which is fine if you enjoy being stuck.

      • anand yogi says:

        Certainly, the Scottish skinhead baboon cannot understand the devices for the awakening of contributors on SN that Shantambhai, with help from the Nine Unknown Men of Mighty Bhorat, has devised!

        Also, Shantambhai is speaking in third person!
        This is the sign of a mahatma!
        Of course, western baboons will see this as sign of having delusions of grandeur induced as compensation for failure and life wasted as a result of taking wrong turns and ending up in dead-end with brain damage, and prescribe a check-up from the neck up!
        See the madness of the western mind!

        Did Krishna need therapy?
        Did Ramana need therapy?
        In the East we do not need this nonsense!
        In glorious East it is enough to drop chuddies without engaging mind which is nothing but mind and let astrological wisdom pour mindlessly forth from Uranus, and then when questioned, say that it is a device to provoke wisdom!

        Hari Om!

  15. Lokesh says:

    Shantam says, “Question is, why we are not jumping into?”
    I do not know about anyone else. As far as I am concerned I simply cannot be bothered with any of this guru, spiritual masters trip. I put in more than enough time with that. Now, I prefer to potter about in my garden and do as little thinking as possible. I am not searching for anything apart from a little extra cash.

  16. Kavita says:

    ”Yes, most of us may have heard of these Yogis who can do without breathing for quite a very long time; but pretty much, better say, all of us (contributers here at SN/UK) don´t belong to that rare species. You neither, I guess.”

    Your guess is right.

    To me, even the Yogis who claim they “can do without breathing for quite a very long time” may think they can/ have stopped breathing through their nose but I guess the rest of the body is probably doing the breathing for them!

    • frank says:

      I went to a Kali festival out in the wilds of Karnataka back in the day. It was like a small town set up in a field in the middle of nowhere. Stuff went on 24/7 for three days.

      It was a meet-up for Kali worshippers and sadhus. There were yogis whipping themselves with leather bullwhips, sticking things in their bodies, flaming spears banged through their faces and so on.

      There was a freak show with a kid with two heads. As well as yogis on beds of nails and sadhus standing for hours on shoes of nails, there were yogis who were buried. In fact, there was a whole row of them, like a kind of street of them who mostly had just their heads buried in the earth.

      Like the satsang thing there`s lots of modern people everywhere these days doing it, this self-mortification stuff. There`s loads of youtube videos on this sort of thing, modern tribalism etc.

      All the kids having tattoos are doing a bit of it, too.
      People say it`s spiritual. Basically, it seems like another way to get blasted. Apparently, it releases a megadose of endorphins and suchlike and I guess it impresses your friends and peers.

      Don`t fancy it myself. Tbh, I`d rather have my tongue stapled to the floor of an Indian public toilet in rainy season, although that`s probably one of their tricks, too.

      • Kavita says:

        In most Indian/other old cultures, anyone with rare physical attributes & performing unusual/unnatural acts is considered to be an incarnation!

        Tbh, even your “I`d rather have my tongue stapled to the floor of an Indian public toilet in rainy season, although that`s probably one of their tricks,too” is all the more disgusting.

        • frank says:

          Yes, it`s gross. I must try and give that one up for the new year.

          You`re right, K, it`s easy to be an incarnation in India. I had a guy mistaking me for Jesus Christ once. My denials seemed to convince him even more. He even took the fact that I spoke English as a miracle. Took me a day to shake him off. Should have played along, really.

          Which reminds me, on the subject of film, has anyone seen the Netflix series ‘Messiah’? People are raving about it. Anyone know if it`s worth signing on for a free month of Netflix to watch it?

          • Lokesh says:

            Frank, ‘Messiah’ is a great series. Also check out ‘Frontera Verde’, excellant.

          • Kavita says:

            ”Which reminds me, on the subject of film, has anyone seen the Netflix series ‘Messiah’? People are raving about it. Anyone know if it`s worth signing on for a free month of Netflix to watch it?”

            Frank, I did binge watch ‘Messiah’ after you mentioned it here, I think it was worth paying monthly subscription as I have outnumbered their free trials!

            My friend & University class-fellow was visiting for coupla days, she is a print media journalist and it was interesting to watch it with her and do a post-mortem. Even though would like to watch it alone before the monthly subs. ends.

  17. Klaus says:

    This story could be running under the title: ‘Crazy wisdom. Very crazy wisdom. Totally crazy wisdom. Absolutely crazy wisdom’.

    The Sakyong Mipham is the son of famous Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche. He is a recognized ‘tulku’ – meaning reincarnated Tibetan Lama.

    It’s a long story. Many people endured hard times – for quite some time. Why so long?

    Sitting in ‘Satsang’ has many andvantages compared to the quite rigorous Tibetan styles:
    - You do not have to talk, if you do not feel a need to.
    - You can enjoy the silent sitting.
    - You do not have to follow a special internal method of practice.
    - You can go home afterwards. Easily.
    - You choose, if you would like to come back for more sessions
    - No damage done, at least looking from the outside

    Enjoy Freedom.

  18. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    @ Swamishanti (21 January 2010 at 8:16 pm)

    Could you, Swamishanti, ´help me out´ to understand what this particular of your contributions has to do with the topic quest, how to differentiate fake-phoney teachers from those who might be ´worth their salt´?

    I simply don´t get it.


    • frank says:

      The whole Kali Yuga/Satya Yuga thing is, in Western terms, apart from a few burnt-out old hippies and plenty of brainless yoga students, fast becoming the currency and property of the alt-right.

      Oddly enough this ties in with the last thread about Hitler and the Nine men.

      Savitri Devi (1905 – 1982), was a militant nazi zealot infamous for her blending of Hitler-worship with Hindu traditions into a new religion known as “Esoteric Hitlerism”.

      Born Mazimine Portaz in France, Devi moved to India in the early 1930s. Devi embraced Hinduism as an authentic “Aryan” paganism and became obsessed with preserving the Aryan bloodline of Brahmins (members of the highest caste in the Indian system, made up of priests, scholars and teachers).

      Devi came to view Hitler’s Third Reich as the rebirth of Indo-European, Aryan paganism in the western world, and believed that Hitler was in fact the penultimate avatar of Vishnu, sent to battle the demonic materialistic forces of the advanced Dark Age (which Devi calls the “reign of the Jew”). The untold misery caused by Hitler upon Europe’s Jewish population was in fact clearing the ground for Vishnu’s final incarnation, Kalki the Avenger. This notion handily reframes Hitler’s miserable failure as a spiritual triumph.

      Amazingly, this person is undergoing a resurrection amongst young western white supremacists, her works recently translated into English. The dejected, angry white men desperate for status and identity are picking up on and imbibing an Indo-Aryan mythology that connects white men to a “superior” bloodline with a glorious history, and the mythological Kali Yuga and the coming Kalki who many believe to be Donald Trump, ready to save the pure tradition that is under threat from liberals, muslims and immigrants.

      That is, put an end to Kali Yuga and usher in Satya Yuga.

      You couldn`t make it up!

      Hare Om!

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Could well be, Frank, that you helped Swamishanti out (?) with your amazing bits and pieces about the -(nowadays) alt-right alt-esoteric ideological ‘basements’?

        Amazing – your every now and then digging into history(ies) and teachers who are truly NOT worth their salt – not a surprise that you chose a woman (this time a French one) to stir the pot!

        Thanks for the intro-info, will meditate about it.


        And do you know about contemporary aspects of the same ´thing´?

        • frank says:

          Hi Madhu,
          As far as contemporary aspects of the same thing is concerned, I have the impression that most of the Hindu gurus are pretty nationalistic to a disturbing degree including the ones with a western following. For example, Amma backs Modi and has given speeches lauding Hindutva at RSS headquarters. I don`t think it`s too far off the mark to compare RSS with KKKlan. Savitri Devi`s philosophy was identical to RSS beliefs . The BJP ruling party only split from RSS in 1980.
          Here on SN we had an article where Arun was claiming that talk of Modi being anti-muslim in Gujurat was American propaganda!

          Btw, on`t try to broach the subject with an Amma freak unless you want to get a reaction similar to the one you would get by offering a rabbi a bacon sandwich at the Wailing Wall!

          It`s all a far cry from the hippy trail when gurus in blankets were necking huge doses of acid, neo-sannyasins were getting their rocks off, Shiva was toking his chillum and skinny-dipping while Ganesh the psychedelic elephant stood grinning in the background….

          “Things standing shall fall
          but the moving ever shall stay….”

          • frank says:

            Klaus mentioned Sakyong Mipham, ChogyamTrungpa`s son who got accused of some kinds of abuse recently. Fact is, his father Chogyam and himself both ran an organisation that was run like a medieval fiefdom roughly based on the Tibetan feudal order, complete with lugubrious sounding titles for the potentates and solid hierarchical structure including many old feudal favourites such as `droit de seigneur`.

            It`s an odd thing to see, a bunch of modern-thinking, mostly middle-class liberal types with relaxed attitudes about gender and sexuality signing up for an authoritarian, semi-feudal semi-theocracy with all of its lurking baggage of mysogyny and entitlement etc. I can see how that happened say, 40/50 years ago, but nowadays one would think it might have gone out of date.

            Is it any wonder that such set-ups are breeding grounds for various types of power abuse, even `fascism` of various orders?

            We have had Prabhupada`s (founder of Hare Krishna) vile sexist, racist, rapist, supremacist quotes (another occult Hitlerist by the sound ofit) here on SN. Does their availability on the net damage the Hare Krishna subscription numbers? Doesn`t seem to.

            To get back to the satsang subject:
            There`s one guy (or woman) on the throne, holding all the power. Its like a pyramid. The top dog has maximum control over power and money with all the inferiors battling between themselves for crumbs of power from the master/mistress` table.

            They are organised into the inevitable hierarchical power structures where loyalty (however it is framed in religious language) and closeness to the chief are the only things that really matter.
            It`s not rocket surgery to realise that kind of set-up leads to fascism or at least crypto-fascism on a fairly regular basis

            `Satsang circles` invented by Satyam Nadeen sounded interesting. Didn`t Big P participate in that? Anyone else here have experience of that? I never heard any detailed reports.
            Apparently, the participants took it in turn to be the one in the chair answering the questions. Everyone had a go at being the guru once in each group with the others as disciples.

            Sounds like an interesting piece of spiritual theatre.

            • frank says:

              I had forgotten. SN co-founder Sam/Paritosh who wrote about Satsang circle:

              • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                The then following row…a little bit ´later´, Frank, is hopefully a grandezza BIG HOMMAGE to Terry Jones and the Monty Python gang…
                (As such in suchness)…

                Just to say, that if someone like Terry (who just made his round fully) and who had creative ideas in abundance did leave living sparks!


                • frank says:

                  Good call, Madhu.

                  I remember getting dressed next to Terry Jones and Michael Palin after a meditation, in the changing rooms of the London Centre, which, bizarrely, was also a posh squash club that they were members of, back in the red days (84/85?). They were obviously good mates.

                  Neither myself or anyone asked him for an autograph or if he would like a “wafer-thin mint” or anything like that, which I would like to think they appreciated.

                  Also didn`t ask him what he thought of Bhagwan but no doubt he would have said, “He`s not the messiah, he`s a very naughty boy.” And he wouldn`t have been far wrong!

              • Klaus says:

                Ohh. That was already in 1998!
                Credits to Satyam Nadeen for abolishing the hierarchical method at that time!!

                Plus I like the distinctions made by Sw. Paritosh:
                1) Does it come with therapy?
                Which methods?
                2) Is it a group meditation? Any preferences?
                3) Are group dynamics the only ‘driving force’?

                Good points to consider in advance….

                • swamishanti says:

                  The thing about advaita is it can be very effective if read from a book, Satyam Nadeen had an awakening in prison whilst reading lots of Ramesh Balsekar.

                  I’ve got a couple of Nadeen’s books and they are a good read.

                  He is a big believer in destiny, which he got off Ramesh.
                  He writes that everyone awakens from the dream of life at death anyway.

                  Advaita can work if read from the page of a book, but also, it is so simple that like in the satsang circles, anyone can do it, you don’t have to be enlightened to behave like a teacher.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Whilst Christian monks buggered each other and strived for union with God for years in the monasteries, several sannyasins have also been imprisoned and had powerful awakenings, but unlike the monks they then went on to have a pretty good old life afterwards.

                  God Dieux is another one who found enlightenment after spending years in a Japanese prison meditating on a box.
                  But he did spend years with Samdarshi before that.

                  I have enjoyed his book ‘The Seed’, too.

                • frank says:

                  Enlightenment or buggery? Another of those choiceless choices that seekers down the ages have had to make.

            • Klaus says:

              My thoughts, also. Thanks @Frank for the clarity.

              This hierarchical thing in my opinion is fully outdated.

              But it seems to be difficult to fully relinquish it.

              The Dalai Lama proclaimed the end of succession of this function: as it is an expression of hierarchy.

              So be it.

          • frank says:

            Nazi chic is getting bigger in India and other parts of Asia too.

    • swamishanti says:

      I live close to nature, so over years I have become very aware of the cycle of seasons.

      Right now I can feel the different vibe that is in the air, the birds are singing different songs to what they were singing in the death phase of December, and the gradual process of winding things down, dropping leaves and dying off of the Autumn months.

      Right now signs of new life, small green buds are appearing on the trees.

      Whether there are also different cycles and seasons of spiritual growth and consciousness for life in this world, who can really know?

      Whatever kind of intelligence Maitreya Ishwara was talking to and receiving messages from, I don’t know. Whether extra-terrestrial being, that rascal Shiva in disguise, a cheeky joker-type spirit, or the Source itself.

      Whatever it was, I thought the message of a global unifying and accepting different approaches to raising consciousness in his book ‘Unity’ did make sense on a lot of levels, especially for narrow-minded fanatics of any spiritual group or religion, including catholic sannyasins .

      But like Parmartha, I also felt and experienced that he stood out as being authentic amongst the influx of wannabe satsang wallahs of the nineties and 2000s.

      Samdarshi suggests that a big game changer arrives once around every 2,500 years, such as Osho or Gautama the Buddha, shakes things up a bit, and a new meditative tradition grows out of that.

      Both Osho and Gautama Buddha spoke with a clarity of different types of enlightenment and both spoke about the possibility of moving ‘beyond enlightenment’ too.

      Whether there is a God, a creator that is dreaming and creating this unfolding dream of our existence, or whether our apparent lives on this planet are pre-programmed, here in this particular solar system how many cookies are used, which coding language was used , or whether there is actually no intrinsic destiny here and it’s all perfectly meaningless, who can tell?

      It’s a lot more complex than just hundreds of thousands of groups of cycles of light and darkness, if that wasn’t complicated and sophisticated enough.

      There are also many other solar systems with blue and green planets similar in composition to this one, suitable for humans to live and breathe, and that is only in this galaxy out of billions of other galaxies.

      It is a big picture.

      • frank says:

        Hi Shanti,
        Feeling the change of seasons in nature is an embodied experience.
        Positing cyclical yugas which are based metaphorically on the changing of the seasons is conceptual.

        It seems to me that the Seasons and the Yugas are not events/realities of the same order; Yugas are a metaphor. The experience of the earth is not.

        Of course some will say:
        “Yes, but to those with eyes yugas are as real as seasons.”

        To me, other than the obvious inherent power grab, that`s the same kind of literalism that is used to back up the caste system, the bad karma of the cripples, women, the unlucky and all the rest.

        I ain`t having it!

        • Klaus says:

          Also, for clarity’s sake I would like to state for myself that my use of word/concept/idea of “Yugas” does not imply support/ endorsement of any right-wing and/or anti-human ideology attached to it.

          Limiting one’s mind/consciousness to some kind of “nation” to me indicates a thorough stuckness.

          “What is the need of nations?” (Osho)

          • swamishanti says:

            Perhaps it’s just the same story going round and round again, just the yugas become slightly better each time.

            Perhaps next time round in the same cycle, Labour have just won the last election, we all have free wi-fi and instead of having to eat bacon and eggs I can find good quality tofu in my local supermarket.

            • frank says:

              I guess we all want things to get better.
              How to be sure, though?

              It reminds me of someone who said that people voting for Brexit are like a guy in his 50s who divorces his wife after 30 years of marriage, thinking he`s going to get to pull loads of 20 year-old women but ends up washing his underwear in his blocked sink in a crumbling bedsit!

        • swamishanti says:

          Yeah, the traditional Indian idea that God creates cycles of consciousness and is ultimately responsible for everything that happens, certainly has been used to justify the caste system, bad karma of cripples, and everything else.

          It does make Indians generally much more relaxed and laid back than neurotic `only one life` Westerners are though.

          I remember, coming back to the subject of phoney spiritual teachers, Mother Meera being asked about the huge amount of `awakened` satsang-givers: are they enlightened? She replied along the lines of, “No, that is something else. Enlightenment is rare, and when it happens the soul finds it difficult to stay in the body.”

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            Mother Meera is right, Swamishanti, good that you brought that in. Appreciate that, what you brought in here, as I´ve been able to sit in Her Presence back times ago…

            Not easy, btw, ALWAYS when meeting some rare Beings, inviting for a sharing of whatsoever they have to give.

            Not easy to learn to be on the receiving end and avoid that egoic atmoshere of greed, which is often tangible in the audience, and what our Friend Frank is up here to explore, research, and describe – quite correctely, I´d say.


          • Kavita says:

            ”Mother Meera being asked about the huge amount of `awakened` satsang-givers: are they enlightened? She replied along the lines of, “No, that is something else. Enlightenment is rare, and when it happens the soul finds it difficult to stay in the body.”

            Now, SS, I am wondering if it’s better to remain un-enlightened!

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              You say, Kavita: “Now SS, I am wondering if it’s better to remain unenlightend!”

              There´s something I love about your contribtions sometimes like now – it´s a kind of tongue-in-cheak-humour…

              My own experience throughout these decades is that ‘female approaches’ in meditation meeetings have different issues re greed and amibtion than ‘male’ ones.

              I know this sounds a pretty rough distinction, more so as any being has a female as a male side (inside).

              But bragging endlessly about ´Enlightement´ as an (illlusory, I´d say) ‘end’ of a life´s spiritual journey has very rarely – if ever – happened, when I´ve been meeting with ‘sisters’, so to say.


              • Kavita says:

                Madhu dear, somehow I think what you say is somewhat true about ”But bragging endlessly about ´Enlightement´ as an (illlusory, I´d say) ‘end’ of a life´s spiritual journey has very rarely – if ever – happened, when I´ve been meeting with ‘sisters’, so to say. ”

                But frankly, I have more male friends, so I many times do forget I am in a woman’s body.

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  Your yesterday´s response, Kavita, addressing me with “Madhu dear” couldn’t be more appropriate and convenient for waht I´had been trying to convey/share. (Guess you´ve have had quite a British education?).

                  And your words: “But frankly, I have more male friends, so I many times forget I am in a woman´s body”, pointing out same, same…

                  I´m grateful though as ever and ever again, exploring the Issues of dissociation and imagination Disembodiment vs. evolving re (re-) embodiments of traumata, especially the quite early happenig ones in our lifetime in the body.

                  It´s a virtual Chat here after all; so it´s quite difficult if not sometimes impossible to find out if somebody participating is speaking his/her relative truth ‘of not being the body’ or just reliving as a freelancer, one can say, his/her disembodiment-traumata in a by definition dis-embodied area.

                  I´m writing this having read a lot of angry and partially bitter bits and pieces (of times and times ago) and very understandable re the topic : ” False vs not false teachers or facilitators in or of Satsang circles or/ and synchronistic historical happening in societies at ´large”.
                  Thank you, Kavita, for the inspiration to go for another of my research here at my place, visiting the website of Science & Non Duality (SAND).

                  And again, found beautiful helping takes* of talks there which I recommend to readers & writers here.


                  *Of a woman facilitator/meditator/therapist/human being.

                • Kavita says:

                  In my case, Madhu, I can say it’s my relative truth.

                  Btw, I have had a Roman Convent schooling. Speaking about my English being British, it’s obvious as India continued with British Education system even after they left.

                  Also my paternal family spoke more English due to their educational & travelling exposure, so I think my formative thinking process was in English.

                  * (Disclaimer – only stating my fact).

            • swamishanti says:

              Yes indeed. Full enlightenment is rare.

              That’s why I recommend Swami Buntar, who is visiting London soon:


      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Thanks, Swamishantiat 11.44 am),
        Good to come to know a little bit more and better where you are coming from when describing your glimpses of ´the big picture´, as you say.

        As far as I am concerned, I don´t take it as a metaphor when Carl Sagan said we are all ´star-dust-born´ – and –
        more experiential-wise – watching the few (three or even four generations) their growing up in my lifetime, seeing them coping quite differently with conditioning given and ever, ever changing.

        Change is all there is – and you are quite fortunate, I´d say, to be able to live close to Nature, yet finding space and opportunity to join this virtual website-chat.


  19. Prem Ritvik says:

    The right way to separate milk from water, phoney from original, is to go for a blood test.

    I will explain you how:
    Scientists have recently discovered that awareness causes and contains certain secretion of hormones. Not going in deep biological terms, you can relate this to the fact that when an animal is killed for food, in its defence the toxins of fear, flight or fight are being released in the body.

    The aware one in the same way has the right kind of things flowing about his blood and hence a blood test will determine whether the vocals are worth attending to or not.

    If you are still not convinced, you can see the whole study here:


    • Kavita says:

      PR, seems you are doing a Phd. in Awareness!

      So how’s the thesis going?!

      Btw, are you the developer of that website?!

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Hello Kavita,
        I am indeed doing a study on enlightenment rather than getting enlightened, that part I am leaving for later as after that, someone will get my blood test done and everybody will request me to give satsang based on test results. I may not have time for study after that.

        My study is concerned with finding enlightenment and it’s blood relation so that all those who will bear my blood will be enlightened and don’t have to strive for it.

        My dynasty will be enlightened and all will bear the surname Gumball.

        As for the website, no, it’s not my creation. It has existed before me and should exist after me if the internet never crashes. It is not what rishis of Upanishads have called dharma but still unattainable is unknown at Zombo Com. Do not meditate on this.

    • Prem Dharma says:

      Actually, the way the disciples decided Mahavira was a “tirthankara” – because his body had a certain fragrance.

      Osho talks about this.

      If doctors could test an enlightened person (where would they find one?) it is possible they might discover certain differences in body chemistry that can be revealed with a blood test (it’s a possibility).

      “You may sit in a room where no lobhan has been burnt and repeat, ”Allah” – not just ”Allah” but”Allahooh” with a special emphasis on ”hoo.” You will find that slowly that ”Allah” sound disappears and automatically only ”hoo” will go on being repeated. When this happens, suddenly you will find that your whole room is fragrant with the smell of lobhan. It was discovered that lobhan is similar to a substance that emanates from you.

      But the repetition of ”Aum” can never bring about the fragrance of lobhan. This sound strikes another centre which cannot produce this smell.

      There are separate areas of fragrance within our body, and these are linked with our thoughts and feelings.

      That is why Jainas believe that Mahavira’s body never gave out any bad odor. His body had a certain fragrance, on the basis of which it was possible to recognize a tirthankara. In Mahavira’s time, eight other people claimed to be tirthankaras, but this particular fragrance was not coming from them.None of them was less knowledgeable than Mahavira, they were of the same spiritual stature, but they were not practitioners of that system of spiritual discipline which produces this fragrance, so their claims were rejected.

      Buddha also was in no way inferior to Mahavira. He was of the same caliber and state of consciousness as Mahavira, but because he was not following the same method as Mahavira,his body could not emit the same type of fragrance. That fragrance had also emanated from Parshwanath, a tirthankara who had died long before Mahavira’s time. His contemporaries were still living and they confirmed that Mahavira’s fragrance was similar to Parshwanath’s. The ultimate result of a certain mantra process was that particular. The ultimate result of a certain mantra process was that particular fragrance.

      This was a memory-based arrangement for determining the authenticity of a tirthankara. So though Mahavira never claimed that he was a tirthankara, he was readily proclaimed to be one. Makhkhali Goshal, on the other hand, did make the claim but could not prove it.

      You may wonder at how fragrance was used as the criterion. The test had to be that deep and infallible – words cannot be relied on. The whole individuality of that person should emit the special fragrance that would indicate that a certain flowering had happened within him, that the culmination of the mantra process which gives birth to a tirthankara had happened.”

      Osho – ‘Hidden Mysteries’, ch. 1

  20. Kavita says:


    SN, received a message this morning about Swami Tathagat’s (ex- Osho Commune in-charge) death on 24th Jan at 9.25 pm. He was cremated in Lucknow at 2 pm this afternoon.

  21. swamishanti says:

    Thanks for that, Kavita. Nice to see some familiar faces up there in Osho Nisarga, including the Dalai Lama and Vinod Bharti.

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