Sex, Love and Relationships in the West

Some notes on Sex, Love and Relationships in the West, from the perspective of Shantam Prem, an Indian who, since leaving Pune, has lived and worked in Germany for many years. Full of hidden dangers, it’s like a ‘minefield’, he says, but for which there’s one sure solution…

Between man and woman there are a whole bunch of feelings, not just attraction and love. With men and women becoming independent entities, all these feelings surface in modern-day love stories.

In a way, attraction and love lead into the world of hidden feelings. It´s these hidden feelings which create havoc and make life a real life Love Story, where a happy ending is not guaranteed. The beauty of a real-life story is that the script and dialogue are not pre-planned, two people have to act and direct simultaneously. To be part of one´s own Love Story is a very creative adventure, It is also a scary encounter with buried feelings like landmines hidden in the unconscious, waiting to come at the slightest provocation.

Nothing is more alluring and hypnotic, transformative and destructive than this four-letter word, ‘Love’, implying such a wide range of feelings.

I was telling my friend the other day that to leave a job one needs six weeks notice but a years-long relationship one can leave any time, any day. Man/Woman Relating has become almost a day-to-day contract based on mutual satisfaction and trust.

Because of such hectic love lives, the West is full of doubting people with broken hearts who have to become as expert as predators to avoid further betrayal and abandonment. Psychological rehabilitation resorts have waiting lists of preyed-upon lovers who opened their heart for New love and found out later they were one of many in the harem of a charming person.

An interesting theme is emancipated women who never compromised in their youth and left their phlegmatic husbands, who suddenly become scary with wrinkles on the face and hairs getting white down there!

Call it Nature´s miracle, men in their 40s and 50s become more powerful in the West compared to ladies. From time to time I’ve come across stories where one man is flirting and sexing with various women and these women become ‘sisters in distress’ with the hope that one of them will be chosen as ‘Queen Bee’…

Most of such men have no children or have been kicked out by their wives because of ‘over-the-counter’ flirting. The loss of youth and the natural desire for attention makes women susceptible to various kinds of therapies, seminars, gurus, satsangs and whatnot. Main theme though is very simple: “Love me again as my parents did or show me the feeling of first love.”

Based on such a theme, I have just come across a banner about online expert coaching for creating “strategies” to avoid the pain of betrayal and abandonment and be more happy, loving, caring, blah blah…

It is a sad state of modern western life where the life motto is ‘freedom of instincts, at any cost’. Humanity is forgetting the value of sacrifice and sublimation.

I am equally responsible for broken relations and broken families although I can make an alibi: “It was for Research Purposes.” Yes, I have become expert in ‘How Not To Fuck Up Loving Relationships’.

One thing is very, very clear: the wounds of love can be healed only by love. Two wounded hearts can heal each other or spray salt, because this is what one has got; here the choice is in human hands. It is all a game of lower mind and higher mind and beyond mind.

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231 Responses to Sex, Love and Relationships in the West

  1. satchit says:

    Why not make it personal instead of making general statements, Shantam? You came here to the West with a love-relationship. And here the relationship finished – was it like this?

    Would the relationship still exist if you both had remained in India?

  2. shantam prem says:

    Satchit, would you be courageous and man enough to tell something about you, your age, your marital status, your race etc?

    I expose enough of my life because I live honest and clean and offer my life story for the study purposes; most probably, my body too will be given for scientific study, specially the brain.

    May I request contributors be honest and factual. This is not a political thread but part of everybody´s longing and the obstacles on the way.

    • satchit says:

      Shantam, nobody did force you to expose anything of your life. It’s all your freedom, maybe you have some exhibitionist behaviour. Do you really think that science is interested in an Indian brain that lives in the West?

      My age is 66. A relationship functions if people don’t move in different directions.

      An Indian man, a German woman:
      Different conditioning.

  3. anand yogi says:

    Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

    Swami Bhorat and myself have been studying your astrological chart in great depth and it is utterly clear that the influence of the two malefic orbs circling in the region of Uranus have been the source of many relationship problems!

    It is certainly a miracle that amongst the manifold depravities of the West that you describe with such wisdom, that a handsome young buck such as yourself has escaped the prurient attention of the perverted sausage-eaters of Germany!

    Nevertheless, Shantambhai`s inherently spiritual inclinations and sense of entitlement has not saved him from taking on the bad karma of the West by being forced to accept the fate of being victim of “emancipated women who left their phlegmatic husbands, who suddenly become scary with wrinkles on the face and hairs getting white down there”!

    Fortunately for you, bhai, and the whole of humanity, the spiritual wasteland of the West is finally ready, as per the plan of the famous esoteric society, ‘Nine Men of Mighty Bhorat’ (who, according Osho, were behind the rise of Adolf Hitler and the mission of Krishnamurti), to receive the third and ultimate phase of the plan!

    For this phase, the Nine Men have been seeking tirelessly for one who could fulfil the necessary role: One who was born on the browned and hallowed turf of mighty Bhorat, suckled on the mighty mammary of holy Bhorat, been a major player in the pumping phase of Osho`s vision (88-90) and then spent years researching XXXX sites at expense of German govt., ejaculating ceaselessly at computer, lurking around nudist lakes and going to naked saunas, admiring six-packs of football managers and who has become an “expert in how not to fuck up relationships”!

    It seemed like a tall order for the Nine Men, but through God`s grace, search is complete!

    Shantambhai, you are certainly the man to deliver the much-needed message: “It is all a game of lower mind and higher mind and beyond mind”.

    And remember, in the matter of words it does not matter if underpants are outside the trousers!

    Yahoo!
    Hari Om!

  4. Lokesh says:

    Shantam’s latest article lacks coherence. Kind of difficult to figure out what his point is. Sounds to me like a verbal catharsis.

    I read his concluding paragraph and see the following: “One thing is very, very clear: the wounds of love can be healed only by love.” Thing is, it is not ‘very, very clear’ at all. For a start, it looks at emotional healing from an extremely limited perspective. Hurt can be healed in many ways. Time can heal. Throwing oneself into a creative outlet can heal. Being with friends and wise people can heal. Standing on the ocean’s shore watching a beautiful sunset can heal. The company of animals can heal. The list goes on.

    Then we have, “It is all a game of lower mind and higher mind and beyond mind.’ Which all sounds like a mind trip to me.

    Go back a few lines from the end and you find this bit of nonsense: “It is a sad state of modern western life where the life motto is ‘freedom of instincts, at any cost’. Humanity is forgetting the value of sacrifice and sublimation.”

    The same old East-West bullshit Shantam has been coming away with for years. “The value of sacrifice and sublimation”? What great sacrifices is Shantam making for humanity, I wonder? The same goes for sublimation. By the sound of it the only process of sublimation going on in his life is the production of hot air, both verbal and that created by flatulence.

    • satyadeva says:

      “Hurt can be healed in many ways. Time can heal. Throwing oneself into a creative outlet can heal. Being with friends and wise people can heal. Standing on the ocean’s shore watching a beautiful sunset can heal. The company of animals can heal. The list goes on.”

      Lokesh, by “love” (last paragraph), Shantam might well be referring to intimate relations between two people (is that correct, Shantam?) but still, aren’t all these instances you list forms or ‘offshoots’, ‘octaves’ even, of love (except the passing of time, although even that might be said to be an instance of the natural protective benevolence of Nature, there to nurture survival first and foremost but still a kind of love in itself)?

      So in a wider context Shantam’s statement is pretty well on the right lines?

      • Lokesh says:

        SD, I do not agree.

        • satyadeva says:

          Ok, so if these means towards emotional healing aren’t ‘octaves’ of love, what exactly are they?

        • Lokesh says:

          Nature is the last place to look if in search of compassion. Good place to look if in search of unity.

          The other day I read a Ramana quote. Someone asked him about other people. Ramana said, ‘There are no other people.’

          • satyadeva says:

            Yes, ok, good point re Nature.

            Ramana’s quote reminds me of BL’s oft-repeated, “I (meaning ‘I’ there in that body hearing these words) am the only ‘I’ in the universe, because I am the only one who knows if I’m lying when I say “I love you.” “

            • Arpana says:

              I’m not actually disagreeing with the broad point about Nature, as in “nature red in tooth and claw,” but in fact, as a slight caveat, elephants apparently regularly show signs on their behaviour, along with whales and dolphins and other mammals, dogs and cats included, which is difficult not to construe as compassionate, caring, kind, putting themselves at risk for other entities.

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            Yes, Lokesh – Ramana…

            Point is that a Being like Ramana would have been deported here in this culture (or even in ´India-Today’) – deported into a mental asylum. By so-called ´well-wishers´, btw.

            Good to be updated to the winds of change, isn´t it?

            Madhu

            • satyadeva says:

              Would he, Madhu? How can you be so sure?

              Do you want to believe that? If so, why, I womder?

              • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                The winds of change are experiential, Satyadeva. No proof possible.

                And I meant a living-in-the-body Being, not some respectful remembrance of the holy places and spots happening after a demise of suchness, with kind of traditions happpening then after…and please, don´t get me wrong; just seeing the eyes of the Being – called Ramana – did and does reach my soul and so do some testimonials of His contemporary – also late – Lovers (who meanwhile have also passed).

                The eternal, the universal wisdom which is very rare re ´expression´; the latter, however, always exposed to the winds of change.

                (Only seems to be a paradox, I´d presume).

                It’s a good question, you put up here, Satyadeva…

                Byron Katie would kill it with her first question of Her questionnaire, wouldn´t SHE?

                But I would insist…maybe I´m stubbern…It´s something happening in my guts (is that the right English word?).

                I would insist experientially re ´the winds of change´.

                Madhu

                P.S:
                Anyway – stuff that may not be of any interest for the majority of posters?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Madhu, from what I’ve been told about Glastonbury (a small town in the west of England, famous for its annual pop festival) by a friend who moved there last year, I reckon someone like Ramana might be perfectly acceptable in that milieu, given the numbers and range of weirdly dressed, strange-looking characters of all manner of psycho-spiritual persuasions roaming around its streets!

                  Then in London there’s Camden Town, of course, where I lived for many years until mid-2015, a playground-cum-refuge for the young and ‘alternative’ types of all ages and nationalities – he’d surely find a niche there too, somewhere or other.

                  And I mean, if Eckhart Tolle can manage to become an online/media superstar then the likes of Ramana would surely have plenty of potential, no problem. And what about Braco from Croatia, the ‘Gazer’? He pulls in the punters by the hundreds just to see him standing still for a few minutes in person, and by the thousands online for the same deal.

                  As you say, one really must keep up with “the winds of change”, you know….

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  “Winds of change”, I mentioned, Satyadeva, couple of days ago, and I feel a need to add some more information about what I meant and mean re that Issue (as it was not understandable, obviously, calling up then hippie fantasies/provocations and similar of that kind). And some mean and irrelevant (and stupid) posts about Beings like Osho, Ramana and their Sharings.

                  We are crossing some borderlines re consciousness, individually and collectivly too, and that IS tangible, evident – not the least by its reactionary (and futile) consequences, like trying regressive kind of very tribal stances with its implications to getting into war-kind of patterns and attitudes against one re ´the other´.

                  The sharing and mutual support of one another we´ve been once invited to by some of the Sages, doesn´t seem to work anymore (re peace and love and relating) the way their invitations surely did – for the time being…Mostly, reactions to that are anger and worse than that (utterly destructive reactions).

                  But there are invitations too to an at least a more contemporary understanding about these winds of change. And invitations for a more concious and hopefully more peaceful coping with that.

                  The Wisdom of a Ramana, of Osho or of any effort to invite to a universal consciousness is not at all diminished – on the contrary; but in these Technical Times of informal-exchange it needs contemporary expression.

                  Took me some time to find on the ´Net´ English-speaking protagonists of this New Technical Age and its inhabitants and their conditioning. One of these humans is Yuval Harari, an Israeli Historian.
                  Inviting for more contemporary consciousness to better cope (ethically) with the times we´re living in.

                  Maybe you, Satyadeva, or anybody else here, likes to listen to ( one of) the Q&A I found ( and appreciated):

                  https://youtu.be/4ChHc5jhZxs

                  It’s one of the kind of antidotes for so much hostility happening (like rape and data rape and fights etc.), so to say, which are happening any moment: ´Feeding the wrong seeds´ (the Buddhists say).

                  Sunday today.
                  The trees are waiting to open up…

                  And me, I dedicate this Sunday morning post to RESILIENCE.

                  Resilience and understanding re the Love and Togetherness and the relating we are born into and for in the NOW_HERE_TIMES. As relating is all we can really do. (No speaking of any ´ship´ here…please – such with some consequences of getting anybody heavily ´seasick´… with all its melodramatic (fake-romanticism mind-patterns of days – long before yesterdays…).

                  With love re relating,

                  Madhu

          • shantam prem says:

            “There are no other people” sounds good, very good. If we take it as inner state of the person after meditation or drug-induced oneness, it is a joyful state.

            Around 2 years ago, my bicycle slipped on the frozen water. I had minor surgery for my fractured thumb. Post-surgery, when pain was getting 7 on the scale of 1 to 10, nurse gave me an injection. Within 15 minutes pain was gone, I was walking in the hospital corridors reciting evening prayer from my Sikh roots, went to the church and the feeling of simply Oneness is unforgettable.

            Maybe it was opioid injection, something which is not OTC* product.

            Ground reality is different. If there are no other people, someone can send me just 2000 euros for an Ibiza trip.

            Popcorns are not food but quite delicious while watching a movie.

            *OTC: over-the-counter (as in a shop)

  5. swami anand anubodh says:

    I read recently: “Love can hurt more than loneliness…” – probably worth a thought.

    • satyadeva says:

      https://youtu.be/G_1LP3Z6pW4

      What a song – and over 44 million hits!

      Btw, what’s the purpose of the pain, anyone know? What, for instance, did Osho have to say about this ‘ordinary’ human love we all seem to have to go through? Did he say anything helpful?

      • swami anand anubodh says:

        Nice vid, SD, I remember seeing Nazareth playing support to ‘The Alex Harvey Band’, many years ago.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Yes, Anand Anubodh.
      Only Love can ‘do’ that; better to say probably, ´only Love can make that happen.´

    • shantam prem says:

      Swami Anand Anubodh ji from Nepal, are you happily lonely or married with all the nuts and bolts tightened by the social convictions?

      MOD:
      Shantam, Anubodh’s a Londoner!

      • shantam prem says:

        Thanks, mod.

        London is full with all types of Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Nepalis, so if someone is not white Britisher living in London I won´t consider them as Londoner.

        If it is in my hands, I will surely request western countries not to give passports like toys to foreigners. Living is one thing, passports should be only for the natives.

        • satyadeva says:

          There’s a job for you at UKIP*, Shantam. Or you could drop Tommy Robinson^ a line, you sound ideal material for his benighted outfit.

          MOD:
          * UKIP: The UK Independence Party, known for its right-wing views, particularly on immigration.

          ^ Tommy Robinson: A British far-Right activist/agitator, political adviser to UKIP.

  6. frank says:

    “What’s the purpose of the pain, anyone know?”

    Ah! It`s multiple choice quiz-night at the ‘Finger and the Moon’ philosophy theme pub, again!

    1. Punishment from God for getting your end away
    2. Opportunity to ripen the soul
    3. To prove that life sucks
    4 Same reason a rose has thorns
    5. To get poets writing verse and singers singing songs
    6. To make stories more interesting and poignant
    7. To give you a kick up the arse on the road to enlightenment
    8. No purpose

    • Arpana says:

      The purpose of pain is about survival, surely, Frank, at the bottom line.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Hmmmmm, Frank,
      We could go on and on and on here, couldn’t we? nRiding on the clerical or otherwise conceptual-wave, you (and Anand Yogi?) stirred up to your best. Would lead us to a smile here and there or even some laughter (from well recognizing some old ghosts in some even older closets).

      Bright sky here today, spring warmth, the trees, the bushes and the lawn with its sprouts are getting ready.
      Yesterday – having a walk – I saw the tiny little yellow and white and violet shiny little flowers on some lawns elsewhere.

      Wheel is turning, if we see it. Or not.

      No purpose. Just – like – this -

      Madhu

  7. shantam prem says:

    This photo (below this post) is the basis of this article. There is a one week online course about abandonment and betrayal by a few of the professionals in this field. One can guess designed course is not Made in India or China but by American or Europeans.

    It is a nice coincidence that while I was reading this course description and started writing the piece, my friend (now ex.) was on the way to create a fling with an old flame.

    Theme is more than personal. It is Osho commune theme, one of the reasons for the rise and fall of sannyas lifestyle.

    Humanity wants to live in trust of man/woman, just like Lokesh and his Mrs. How many wise guys and ladies on this site have stable marriage?

    • frank says:

      On the one hand, repressive extended family:
      Obligations, `honour`, misogyny, group identity, non-acceptance of individuality, especially sexual – not lonely but like a prison, a holding cell (a crowded holding cell).

      At the other end of the spectrum:
      Free self-expression, individuality, unfettered identity, gender fluidity, shameless.
      In the end, lonely, also a prison, this time solitary confinement.

      A zen koan maybe.
      Aim of the game:
      How to tread carefully in the sweet spot of the spectrum without ending up in jail!

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Thanks, Frank.

        My email of this evening responding to Satyadeva and Lokesh too just now was ‘sucked’, so to say. So you get some credit about what I´ve had to say (amongst other stuff) about “winds of change”.

        Madhu

        P.S:
        And to forget that the mind-market-data place and somne winds of change in that don´t spare any area (Chats included). That´s the way the wind goes….

        MOD:
        We deleted both Lokesh’s post and your response, Madhu, to avoid getting into more pointless stuff.
        But if you want to put up your one again anyway, with ref. only to Satyadeva, then by all means re-post it.

    • Arpana says:

      What you can’t seem to grasp, Shantam, is that your values are not the values against which our success or failure as human beings, or people who are interested in Osho, is measured.

      Your values are not the template against which all of humanity measures itself, or aspires to succeed at.

      We don’t want your approval, Shantam, it is worthless, and your freely given disapproval is just utterly boring.

    • satyadeva says:

      Shantam, in your article you say:
      “I am equally responsible for broken relations and broken families although I can make an alibi: “It was for Research Purposes.” Yes, I have become expert in ‘How Not To Fuck Up Loving Relationships’.”

      Would you care to reveal what you’ve learned to have become such an “expert”, please?

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Hi Shantam Prem,

      Thank you for adding some background info to get the possibility to the choice of the thread topic words. Much easier to relate then.

      Otherwise, I´d say that these kinds of online ´counselling´ from ´online professionals’ bear the danger that you may be trapped in (by yourself) very well-known patterns of bitterness and even rage. As some of these ´online experts´ haven’t healed themselves before trying to heal other miserable humans.

      Btw, what is a “stable marriage” in your understanding? I don´t know what that is (never married).

      But I see some of the small families here, growing in-and-up together with their kids, and they are not at all talkative with a single woman without kids etc.
      So – I´m looking forward to your description.

      Thanks,

      Madhu

      • shantam prem says:

        Madhu, if you write in this tone nit will be joy to communicate with one of the fellow travellers. If not the whole world, at least we the people who travelled with the ship called ‘Neo-Sannyas Titanic’ have some empathy with each other.

        Every average sannyasin is wiser and softer and lonelier than any other average person from any other new age cult.

        “Stable marriage” I have used as generic term for steady and stable relations also, relations which pass ‘seven year itch’.

        • satyadeva says:

          “Every average sannyasin is wiser and softer and lonelier than any other average person from any other new age cult.”

          Do you have the relevant figures from an in-depth survey on this matter, Shantam, please? If not, this sounds like another of your throwaway generalisations which you imagine to be true as they suit your personal perspective but which have little or no basis in reality.

          • shantam prem says:

            Satyadeva,
            I have lived more in the analytical West than any of the Indian gurus one talks about. Common sense and eyes of wonder to observe are important to create unofficial survey.

            Let us start from Sannyasnews. Is there a single participant below 50?
            No. It means Sannyas is a one generation phenomenon in the West as 8 out of 10 regulars seem to be western.
            Out of these ten, how many are in stable relations?
            How many out of ten have children and grandchildren?
            Out of ten, how many have earned their salary without being dependent on social security?
            One thing is clear:
            All ten are very wise and broadminded in their outlook.

            • satyadeva says:

              “Common sense and eyes of wonder” you like to think, Shantam. But what you most conveniently leave out of the mix is your strong tendency, observed here for over a decade, to concoct conclusions based upon what’s convenient for you to believe, your self-created view of your world, in order to minimise your personal suffering. Very often along the lines of “I’m not an unusual case, so many people are as lost, lonely and as unhappy as me.”

              This is by no means an uncommon trait in people, but I suggest that you, as a supposed ‘seeker’, might make an effort to look at this ‘coping strategy’ and ask yourself whether you’re simply dreaming a convenient dream in order to avoid facing a possible nightmare.

              • satchit says:

                SD, I think you waste your time in trying to convince ‘Osho-disciple’ Shantam.

                Only he knows what Sannyas is, and what not.

                And only he is capable of writing this famous bestseller, ‘The Rise and Fall of Neo-Sannyas’.

              • anand yogi says:

                Perfectly correct. Shantambhai!

                ‘Neo-Sannyas Titanic’ is certainly sunk, despite heroic efforts of Shantam to save it by escaping sinking ship in life-boat heading for Germany with Kate Winslet lookalike but finally drowning in icy waters of local nudist lake!

                In last scene hero throws mala into sea, falls fast asleep and dreams dream of life of freedom and adventure that might have been with Kate Winslet lookalike on decks of Neo-Sannyas Titanic!

                Yahoo!
                Boohoo!

                MOD:
                Shouldn’t that be “throws mala into lake”, Anand Yogi? Unless, of course, the nudist lake is quite close to the sea?

                • anand yogi says:

                  Again, the insistence of the rational baboons of analytical West for sentences that actually make sense destroys possible spiritual understanding of the truths of mighty Bhorat that are below mind, above mind and beyond mind!

                  It is common sense and eyes of wonder to observe that create unofficial survey that establishes clearly that baboons will never understand words of man, who has spent longer in West than gurus, wandering round hospital corridors whacked out on opiates whilst singing Sikh hymns from hymn-sheet kept in 400 year-old chuddies!

                  Yahoo!

                  MOD:
                  Please see my revised query under your post of today, 8.55am.

                • Arpana says:

                  Keeping abreast as you do, Anand Yogi, of modern philosophical trends, I am sure you are aware feminists and social justice warriors have declared logic, rationality and articulacy, the ability to form cogent, lucid sentences, is just a tool the white male patriarchy uses to oppress women and minorities.

            • swami anand anubodh says:

              Shantam Prem moans: “Let us start from Sannyasnews. Is there a single participant below 50?”

              Yes, all the young firebrands who had bigger mouths than brains, exemplified by them following Ozen make-believe to the promised land of Mexico.

              This means that your assertion: “Sannyas is a one generation phenomenon”, is wrong.

              Admittedly, they have long since departed SN – as did your last scintilla of cogency.

            • satchit says:

              And what, if “Sannyas is a one generation phenomenon in the West”?

              These questions have been asked already 40 years ago.

              “Bhagwan what will happen to your commune when you are gone?”

              “It will disappear like a balloon disappearing into to the sky.”

              Beautiful.

              • satyadeva says:

                Yes, Satchit, and there’s another factor, invisible except to the esoteric elite, such as myself. Which is that what Osho has said, his books and videos, and particularly his impact, great and small, upon many people, all influences the collective human psyche, with probable far-reaching consequences for the human race in times to come.

                Let’s not forget that this degree of mass exposure, thanks to sophisticated communications, has never happened before in human history. Sure, “only Now is real”, but whatever the current ‘state of Sannyas’ let’s just wait and see….

                • Arpana says:

                  SD declaimed:

                  “…and there’s another factor, invisible except to the esoteric elite, such as myself.”

                  ‘Bout time you came out of the ‘only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest’ closet.

                • satyadeva says:

                  You’re so right, Arps. Having considered your well-meaning (though rather typically, quite bluntly put) suggestion for several hours I now propose to provide a series of at least 6 discourses based on my personal esoteric understanding (with reference to relevant influences, of course).

                  It won’t be free though, I reckon on charging, say, £59.99 per lecture, or £336.96 for the whole lot. Would that be fair, do you think?

                • Arpana says:

                  @satyadeva. 28 February, 2019 at 9:57 pm
                  I have many years of managerial experience, along with, as you know, a finely tuned spirituality, so when you need an agent, please allow me to offer my services.

              • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                “Nothing ever is a one generation phenomenon”, I´d suggest, Satchit – neither in the West nor in the East.
                (Neither the seemingly fabuluous, miraculous, mysterious stuff included, nor the opposite of it all..).
                One does not need to ´be´ an elite “esoteric” to know that, I´d say.

                Just some understanding of transmuting and transformative processing will do. Up to that understanding which brought some extraordinary-ordinary Beings some pinnacle of consciousness – to confer to their Lovers: “Nothing ever dies.”
                Or, “Where can I go? I will be here.”

                However, we have to read and to get some understanding too about Anand Anubodh´s contribution:
                “Yes, all the young firebrands who had bigger mouths than brains, exemplified by them following Ozen make-believe to the promised land of Mexico.”

                And maybe the older ones here remember the time when they were young, living that passionate longing to belong to a community of friends, some ´Utopia´ of loving, living and working as worship to celebrate life.

                That´s beautiful – not unlike an open Sky (without balloons…).

                Madhu

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, Madhu, as I see it every ‘Utopia’ fails.

                  But still celebration is possible.

                  What a beautiful NS-Titanic-iceberg-crash!

              • Lokesh says:

                Prescience was something Osho was not very good at.

                • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                  Well – yes Lokesh,
                  we read that already from your side, where Osho´s prescience was ´not good´ at´ ( HIV-precautions for example and other stuff, you added – true…)

                  But there was one of the precscience Issues , he was absoliutely accurate in:
                  and that was to see , that anybody´s
                  love to the Master ( and His wisdom) or/and his or her love towards one another or/ and loving oneself – to break it down to that happens according to the level of conciousness one is in. Or not.
                  So He foresaw some of the revengefulness flavours of mushrooming ´Gurudoms´of people´, who would come on stage to sit on a chair then, lecturing others, when He would be ´gone.

                  And He did that lovingly and in good humour.

                  What we call Love always happens at the level of conciousness we are in.

                  It´s a never ending storyboard.

                  And sure enough, Sannyasin don´t make any exception of also breeding fundamentalists or any other partial appearances of distorted stuff of unconciousnesses like being stuck in a war kind of attitude towards one another.

                  And just now, we ´re having cyberwars too, isn´t it ?
                  Or all these misunderstandings of a Tantra-Wisdom, or the Wisdom of a DAO -Teaching, taking the latter as an excuse for a ´Selfie´, and broadcasting that ,to feel power ( over other human beings…)

                  Never ending stories.
                  Ours here on SN/UK is one of that.

                  And it´s beautiful after all, as it also shows at least the longing of a coming together as peacefuk as only possible and share. And grow. And have friends while living that.

                  Madhu

    • satchit says:

      Seems you had no stable relationship, otherwise this would not have happened with your friend, Shantam.

      Blaming things on Sannyas don’t help, this could have happened in every relationship. Maybe not in India with an Indian girl, because of different conditioning.

      • frank says:

        The only stable relationship that Shantam has had is trying to shut the stable door after the dead horse he has been flogging has bolted!!

        • Arpana says:

          The problem with all this attention given to Shantam is that it feeds his ‘I am a great martyr to the cause of Sannyas” ego.

          As in suffering at the hands of the evil white bastards who have ruined Sannyas, in his attempts to right the wrongs they have committed.

          However, if he is ignored that just feeds his “I am a great warrior” ego. As in “I have defeated the evil white bastards who have ruined Sannyas, and one last push and I will be running the ashram in Poona, and restore the place to its former glory, when hot white chicks would be willing to have sex with me occasionally.”

          • frank says:

            Arps,
            It`s a common number these days.

            People come up with viewpoints, opinions and arguments that are completely ludicrous and entirely untenable. It can be alien abductions, the fact that Trump and Putin are working together to undermine the deep state, chemtrails or a host of other nonsense.

            As you say, if people say nothing they must agree.
            And when people get irritated or have an obvious negative reaction, that is seen as proof that the nutter is onto something, otherwise, why the reaction?

            It`s a win-win strategy for whackjobs!

            I suspect that what may be needed in these situations is not serious opposition but lack of seriousness altogether!

            • Arpana says:

              Been around longer than “these days” methinks, Frank; but yeah, lack of seriousness is probably about right. Let the taking the piss roll.

        • shantam prem says:

          Frank, your funny comments, like Anand Yogi’s, are ok, but to write personal comments, etiquette requires one comes out as real individual from out of masked identity.

          In Hindi, there is a saying, “Hunting from behind the shit pie.”

  8. Lokesh says:

    Yes, Arpana, perfectly correct. I was talking about Nature taken as a whole.

  9. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Thanks for your sharing, Shantam.

    Before commenting, I read a couple of times to see if the sense of bitterness mixed with moralism that I perceived enveloping your words was not my interpretation.

    I very much suspect that today there are such great differences between East and West, comparing the social classes that you have taken into consideration. I think, however, for an Indian today it is still possible to have a stable relationship, thanks to the Indian wife’s sense of sacrifice.

    The only problem is that you claim to be also an Osho sannyasin and you can not contradict the basis of his teaching on relationships: love based on trust and mutual freedom to be oneself.

    • satyadeva says:

      Veet, you wrote to Shantam:
      “The only problem is that you claim to be also an Osho sannyasin and you can not contradict the basis of his teaching on relationships: love based on trust and mutual freedom to be oneself.”

      Sounds pretty standard sannyas stuff on the surface, perhaps – but “mutual freedom to be oneself”: what does that actually mean, and how have sannyasins ‘translated’ it into the practicalities of their relationships?

      For me, the main confusion implicit in this phrase concerns what exactly “to be oneself” means. Because almost any behaviour, emotion or personal characteristic can be construed, interpreted, justified, explained away or excused by considering it as ‘being oneself’: getting ‘drunk and disorderly’, picking a fight or a quarrel, being rude, insulting, being all ‘sweetness and light’, insensitive or tender, showing off or hiding away, angry or compassionate, loving or hating, open and welcoming, or closed and resentful, being a friend or enemy (eventually ‘condensing’, perhaps, into Nazi or ‘Free World’, Islamist terrorist or Western Democrat) – not forgetting, of course, the crucial sexual ‘biggies’: ‘horny’, promiscuous or celibate; monogamous or polyamorous etc. etc.

      Surely then, the injunction “freedom to be oneself” is problematic, for the individual and even more so for a relationship as many of these instances, given free rein, indulged (as ‘self-indulgence’) are not exactly guaranteed to provide a happy ride for the other person, and are likely to undermine or destroy any chance of maintaining something worthwhile.

      I suggest that the “freedom to be oneself” (often, by the way, encouraged in therapy, and not only in the beginning when a client might well need to express a great deal rather than hold everything in, but also long after as a sort of end in itself) has been used to justify all sorts of irresponsible, damaging (to self and others) stupidity – giving the word ‘self-ishness’ a bad name, as it were.

      Because ultimately, the ‘self’ is the problem, not the solution, isn’t it? Isn’t that why masters and teachers exist, to show us we’re more than just a load of psycho-physical conditions, contradictory impulses and fixed (or even relatively fluid) beliefs?

      So, Veet, how about altering your description of Osho’s teaching on relationships, changing “mutual freedom to be oneself” to something more in tune with the context of his entire work?

      • Arpana says:

        Do whatever you want, as long as it’s not at the expense of the other, anyone else; although not always easy to be clear about where to draw the line on that.

        Necessary to set boundaries for the other, others, but also for ourselves.

        Really interesting post. Post this as a discussion topic.

      • satchit says:

        Interesting subject, SD, “freedom to be oneself”.

        As I see it, it is always freedom against the other.
        Against the lover, the partner, the parents, against the society. It is a kind of freedom in a prison cell: This corner belongs to me, that other corner belongs to you.

        But what is it, if Ramana is right?
        “Ramana said, “There are no other people.”"

        What kind of freedom exists then?

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUOtCLOXgm8

      • shantam prem says:

        Satyadeva,
        What is “Osho´s entire work”?
        Some Papegaai* will say, “Going Inside. Meditate.”
        Majority of sannyasins have this notion no one was meditating before their Osho talked about it.

        *Papegaai – the German word for parrot.

        • satyadeva says:

          Well, what do YOU say then, Shantam? After all, you were in his orbit for quite a few years so surely you should have some idea what his “entire work” was/is all about?

          If you think it was/is all about creating a large commune then I disagree. That might have been one of the means towards an end but it wasn’t an end in itself.

          Oh dear – ‘Groundhog Day’ is creeping up again….

          • shantam prem says:

            Satyadeva, it is long overdue someone writes an elaborate article, ‘What is/was Vision of Osho?’ for the brain storming purpose. Outline of this article is already in my brain.

            As far as little followers of late big guru abusing my work, I feel like Acharya!

            Murphy went to Casino with a 5 pounds bill and came home with 11 pounds after enjoying the gamblers´s first luck.

            That is it! 30 years later, Murphy still believes, “It is easy to win, most of the people win in Casino!”

          • shantam prem says:

            “Majority of sannyasins have this notion no one was meditating before their Osho talked about it.”
            When someone reads such sentence, it is better to see in the whole context whether it is said as statement or irony.

            In literature I think it is practice to add exclamation mark at the end of sentence rather than just full stop.

            It seems majority of sannyasins have stopped reading anything else after reading Osho or similar pop spirituality!

            MOD:
            If you want an exclamation mark, Shantam, then put one in!

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          You don´t know a thing about the “majority of sannyasins”, Shantam Prem: your filter-bubble is too small, as well as the glasses on your eyes too much coloured by your grief and bitterness and whatnot.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Dear Satyadeva,
        I answered Shantam with all his cultural conditioning implicit in his idea of ​​relationships with women, but with men he is not much better.

        Shantam treats me like a parrot because I’m not a sannyasin of the first hour, while the sannyasins of the first hour who are treating him like a hen are treated by him as heroes.

        It seems to me normal that an eventual wife, in order to remedy such a paradox, treats herself as a bitch. With “be oneself” I’m telling him to be ‘someone else’; anyway, progress compared to being a cuckold.

        Write about your idea of relationship, SD, and I’ll answer with something in tune with my vision, which Osho helped bring out and focus on.

        P.S:
        Your Barry uses the word “truth” a lot, my Raji insists that the nature of man is Love, to be oneself is to realize this nature, one’s own wholeness, one’s own holiness.

        Usually, the behaviour of those who realize this nature are unpredictable, they have a grace that moves to tears.

        People, when they are not flattened by a Punjabi perspective, with its control mania and one-sided self-indulgence, could consider the vertical perspective the centre of the spiritual life around which everything else revolves, including eventual relationships.

        • satyadeva says:

          Veet, what exactly does your final paragraph mean, in terms of ordinary, everyday living, ie what does considering “the vertical perspective the centre of the spiritual life around which everything else revolves, including eventual relationships” actually imply, in practical terms, eg when dealing with the difficulties that tend to arise in relationships: lust for another, jealousy, moodiness, indifference, resentment etc. etc.?

          I also wonder whether Shantam understands what your ‘advice’ to him implies, as it’s a little difficult to unravel exactly what you mean in the 3rd paragraph.

          As for your comparison of BL and Osho, well, their ways are very different – thankfully, one of each is enough! But you don’t appear to realise that BL placed great emphasis on intimate relationships*, he was just as concerned with love (and its absence) as Osho, it was a key element of his teachings (informed, btw, by much personal experience) although, like a typical Aussie, he downplayed ‘glamour’, focusing on the essentials (while, perhaps as a typical Italian (?) you’re seduced by “the “unpredictable” “behaviour of those who realize this nature…they have a grace that moves to tears”. Different strokes…but why not appreciate both?).

          And btw, I don’t see Shantam treating his contemporaries here as “heroes”!

          *Eg his ‘Making Love’ talk, and much else besides.

          • frank says:

            Unpredictable Italians faffing about like prima-donnas?
            Reasonable Englishmen fair-mindedly exercising common sense?
            Down-to-earth Aussies looking askance at glamour from under their cork hats?

            I love those old national stereotypes.

            I bet BL`s favourite joke was:
            Q. What`s an Aussie`s perfect girlfriend?
            A. Three foot tall, no teeth and a flat head to rest your beer on!

            • satyadeva says:

              Yes, but…

              Is Veet an emotional Italian who loves “unpredictability”? Mama mia, si certo – ovviamente!

              Did the average, barely educated Aussie, born between the wars, rest his beer on his Sheilah’s flat head? Too right he did, you better bet he did, mate!

              Am I myself a fair-minded English umpire type, exercising common sense and raising my index finger to signify “out” when faced with abusive comments at this site? Of course I am, my good fellow!

              So are you some kind of trouble-maker, or what, Frank, eh?

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Why don’t you tell us something about yourself that does not fit into stereotypes, frank? I promise that I will not “faff around” predictable things about your ideal girlfriend, not even on her distance from the real one, the one who you cling to when you struggle to distinguish the toilet door from the fridge.

              Satyadeva, before answering, let me give satisfaction to the brave frank who escapes all criticism by wearing a white mask made by the precious material evacuated by a Varanasi cow on a moonless night, shaped thanks to the embers of dozens of chilums of the same material.

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Satyadeva, the behaviours you speak about, such as “lust for another, jealousy, moodiness, indifference, resentment etc.” lived in the absence of the vertical dimension are managed according to the canons of the morality, when available, or using the power, the law of the strongest.

            The problem with Osho, if you’ve learned to be the witness of your life from the unbearable lightness of your emptiness, is that it takes a lot of energy (the self-deception option) and when you act like an asshole it costs less energy to apologize or cry than wanting to be right, though I trust you if you experience a prevalence of masochism, preferring to justify yourself with self-indulgence.

            The third paragraph is an ethological koan – ask your wife if she knows Italian birds.

            Btw, where do you read that I do not appreciate your Barry? And how can you rule out that I can not listen to BL as an Englishman would do, sipping whiskey with cold rationality?

            • satyadeva says:

              Ah, ok, Veet, what you mean by “the vertical dimension” is now clear enough…Although I’m not sure why you felt you had to also add “…though I trust you if you experience a prevalence of masochism, preferring to justify yourself with self-indulgence.”

              Sounds like another of those little (or largeish) barbs you like to stick on the end of otherwise reasonable enough arguments or statements, which tend to come across as unecessary hostility. Guess you’re a Scorpio?

              I still have no idea what you mean by your earlier 3rd paragraph, as you seem to like to speak in rather convoluted ‘riddles’ at times. I wouldn’t call such things ‘koans’ though, as that would be erring on the pretentious side.

              As for whether BL is for you or not, well, if you need whiskey to enjoy him then forget it – stick with what you’re good at, what comes naturally!

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                No, SD, unfortunately you started by labelling what I had commented about SP as “standard sannyas stuff”, judging my phrase “implicitly confusing”, explaining from your point of view why it was such, making a list of all human behaviour included in my “being oneself”, then you continued with the fact that I am “Italian”, then “emotional”, then “Sagittarius”…

                Note my fair play in venting with your wife, since you’re not as emotional and jealous as an Italian.

                The ethological koan unveiled to your wife was “the parrot is out, the parrot is in..in, out, in, out…”.

                When you find something I write unclear, ask me, but if it is irresistible for you to confine me in a stereotype then I will have fun just to make your job less boring in its predictability.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Veet, I think you’re over-reacting, too easily taking offence, again.

                  Your previous post needed to be clarified, which you did, so what’s the problem?

                  You’re Italian, and, like many Italians (and from much evidence here at SN) you give the impression of being – whatever else you may also be – quite an emotional type (not least because otherwise the Humaniversity would have held little attraction for you). What’s the problem?

                  I’m afraid the second and third paragraphs of your latest post are just boring. And, of course, if one has to explain and/or justify ‘jokes’ then that’s usually a sure sign they’re of inferior quality.

                  Btw, check facts: I suggested you might be a Scorpio, not a Sagittarius!

                  Anyway, why waste any more time and energy on such relative trivialities? How about writing an article or two here?

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  P.S:
                  About the difficulty of communicating with you English, listen to what this journalist says at 25:35 mins. Yes, you Brits have a bit of haughtiness with those who do not use your codes; a little patience and I will try to learn them, since the humility necessary to learn the codes of others is not your national trait.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1536&v=VwmvXLamkto

                • Arpana says:

                  VF expostulated!!
                  “Yes, you Brits have a bit of haughtiness with those who do not use your codes.”

                  Egregrious stereotyping. You should be ashamed of yourself.

            • Lokesh says:

              Veet explains, “The problem with Osho, if you’ve learned to be the witness of your life from the unbearable lightness of your emptiness, is that it takes a lot of energy….”

              Not too clear at all. Apart from that, the whole witness number that Osho preached was good…for beginners. If you believe being a watcher in the hills, witnessing this and that, is the end-all of spiritual insights you are kidding your self.

              • satyadeva says:

                To be fair, Lokesh, Veet did add that this referred to “the self-deception option”, ie saying that once one is “the witness of your life” it takes more energy than it’s worth to carry on deceiving oneself (and others, presumably), meaning, as I understand it, by indulging in modes of being that one knows create suffering.

                • Lokesh says:

                  How can anyone not be a witness of their life? Is that not a normal human condition?

                  Thing with Veet is that he fleshes out what he says with intellectual bumpf. Half the time he sounds like he hasn’t a clue what he is talking about. A headtripper…a one way rider, yeah….

                • satyadeva says:

                  Yes, sure, but ‘working on oneself’ helps to give more insight into the sources and effects of hitherto unconscious motivations and behaviour (or at least, that’s the general idea, isn’t it?).

                  Otherwise, why bother?!

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                I know, Lokesh, it’s not a good moment for you, Satyadeva just asked me to write a couple of articles.
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wADRRYNHhOA

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Yes, Arpana, as an Italian I am ashamed to have discovered (the video that I have linked above) that you English people can give us lessons on Mafia.

                Now I understand why when Shantam talks about “trust & tax havens” all of you are grinning behind him.

                MOD:
                You need to clarify what you mean here, Veet, please, or we’ll delete it.

                • Arpana says:

                  @VF:
                  What?!!!!!!!!

                • Arpana says:

                  @ VF.
                  You are getting far too serious about this, mio amico.

                  Frank was ‘scherzoso’. He does it to everyone.

                  SD was actually trying to communicate with you; and Lokesh doesn’t know who he is unless hes sneering at someone.

                  I posted the Italian video as a joke. I would be delighted to speak Italian as well as you speak English, but English is your second language, and you don’t speak English as well as you speak Italian. Misunderstandings happen because of that. We are not your enemies.

                  MOD:
                  Post edited.

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  @MOD & Arpana:

                  What’s going on with you English friends – touchy?

                  I can not play with the stereotype of the English Mafia man, when it was thought that the Mafia was an Italian phenomenon. If you do not know what I’m talking about, watch the video or go to some pubs in the City of London.

                  But above all relax or, if you can not, censor me.

                  MOD:
                  We haven’t a clue what you’re talking about, Veet, so we’re going to stop this now. Perhaps you could try taking your own advice and just “relax”?

                • anand yogi says:

                  Perfectly correct, Veet! No wonder the British mafia baboons of SN are getting touchy!

                  You have finally exposed the reality of these exploitative, repressed, rational, whisky-slugging and Barry Long-listening, haughty, unemotional Brits who have been sitting here grinning, drinking tax-free champagne, watching their accounts in Belize and Jersey rise and rise like erections of disciples who met Osho, and laughing whilst quasi-Marxists and spiritual immigrants and true Osho devotees such as yourself and Shantam clean their toilets!

                  Beloved Shantambhai has also had his life ruined by the same clan of Anglo-Saxons who have stolen his religion from him in broad daylight!

                  What can he do, but sit in naked sauna and scoff at enormous erections of sannyasins who met Osho whilst nursing a floppy and using spiritual Viagra to move in a vertical direction in attempt to relive glories of pumping phase (88-90)?!

                  It is certainly an ethological koan with ornithological overtones!

                  Yahoo!

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Lokesh asks how it is possible not to be witness to one’s own life.

                Well, for example, when a betrayed man kills his wife who fucked with his best friend usually, then tells the police that he has not seen anything.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yeah, sure, Veet, but the killer still is a witness to what he has done. Anyway, that was a pretty poor analogy.

                  If you do write an article keep it simple for us non-intellectuals or else we will not understand what you are waffling on about. Sneer, sneer.

                • frank says:

                  Veet,
                  I think you might be mistaking Lokesh for Inspector Montalbano.
                  It`s an easy mistake to make, mind….

                • Arpana says:

                  Lokesh said,
                  “the killer still is a witness to what he has done.”

                  “He told a beautiful story that I myself have told many times; it is so beautiful and so indicative. Inaugurating the conference, he said that ten blind men were passing a stream in the rainy season — the stream was flooded. They held the hands of each other. It was not very deep, but the current was very strong; so holding each other’s hands they reached the other side.

                  And then one of them said, “Let us count whether we all have come, because we are all blind, nobody can see; if somebody has been taken by the current we will never know.”

                  So they started counting, and of course the number always came to nine because the person who was counting never counted himself. He started with the others and ended with the last man.

                  A very simple fallacy — the scientists are doing it all over the world. All blind! The scientist counts the whole world; believes, trusts, accepts its existence, except the scientist’s own self — that is left unaccounted for.

                  Osho
                  ‘From Darkness to Light’
                  Chapter 12
                  Chapter title: ‘A Single Humanity Rejoicing’

  10. shantam prem says:

    ‘Breaking Free From Abandonment And Betrayal’ – This is the facebook group about coaching. Just seen one comment, which can summarise the feelings: “Abandonment and Betrayal are major wounds for me and at 58 years of age, I cannot wait to break free from them!”

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      You’re wrong twice, Anand Yogi.

      I do not think the English people here have any reaction if someone tells them to have a butler’s mentality, at the service of the heart of the true global mafia system, in fact you did not feel yourself exposed.

      I do not know Shantam, but for my part no envy for the material wealth of the City mafia boys, I like the humble jobs I’ve been doing since I was young. In ’97, in London, I was very happy with my broom, sweeping streets with leaves.

      The only problem was the time of payment, finding that 20-30% of Onyx’s basic salary was missing. A week before I had entered a gate, ringing the intercom of the Onyx, then a courtyard full of Onyx Trucks, with people in Onyx uniform, finally getting into a caravan parked among the Onyx garbage cans to talk to a guy with a rat face, who tells me to come back the next day with the anti-accident shoes.

      I know I made my presence felt in all the glory of the most trivial, predictable, emotional, stereotypical behaviour I could employ, protesting with some vehemence at some boss who looked at me scared inside the offices of Onyx, while I screamed at him: in Italy. this shit we call it ‘Mafia’!!!

      MOD:
      Ok, thanks, Veet.

      After enough diversions, let’s get back to stuff relevant to ‘Sex, Love and Relationships in the West’ now, please.

      • swami anand anubodh says:

        A lady told me once that she would like to keep me in a little box, and take me out whenever she wished.

        Perhaps the ideal relationship (unless of course, you’re the one in the box).

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          How small is the box, Swami Anand Anubodh, like that of believing to rule the world with the subtle codes of the Mafia’s butlers?

          I do not think it was, and too much freedom could shock, like dreaming of driving the car on the wrong side of the road.

          True, freedom in relationships also has a horizontal component; the important thing is not only that it does not interfere with the vertical one but also that the latter has the possibility to express itself.

          If you loved that woman and that was your way to express your verticality, what better to ask than being in that box?

          The world out there is not as fair as in the British Caribbean islands.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Ok, MOD, thanks.

        What to add to what has already been said, by me and others? The problem is that here, whatever I say, there is always someone who refutes what I say with the argument that not having experienced the presence of a living master then the things I say do not have an existential basis, so I’m always finding myself in a corner to defend myself from intellectual attacks.

        This does not invite to open up. Otherwise I would share what for me is the bible of relationships: ‘Osho Co-Dependency’.

        MOD:
        Sounds most interesting, Veet. Please do write about this.

        • shantam prem says:

          Veet, you seem to be more alive and honest and inspiring a seeker than many of those high school drop-outs who were licking lollipops given directly by Bhagwan Shree.

          None of these people have had any walk and talk with Osho. They are simply calling their Bhagwan the Osho. Smuggy Swamis.

          • satyadeva says:

            Shantam, you make a false claim here (and a rather stupid closing comment) (2nd parag.) as several SN regulars had a fair amount of personal chat with Osho, albeit in a darshan context. I talked with him nine times, for instance, and others had far more than that.

        • satchit says:

          Veet, having been in the physical presence of Osho is not needed. People have been in his presence and are as stupid as before.

          Maybe now even more, because of having the pride of having been in his presence.

          • Arpana says:

            Swami Satchit, regarding Poona 1:

            What good Karma we had, to have been in a position to have been in that place at that time, plus the money to get there and stay there; and courage as well of course.
            ✌(-‿-)✌

            Can you imagine the regret cowards who could have gone there, and didn’t, must feel?!! ☯

            • satchit says:

              Swami Arpana,

              I would not judge somebody else as coward. Maybe time was not ripe for them.

              What does one know?

              People become attracted to him after his death. People become attracted without having seen him physically.

              So it is basically a heart-to-heart meeting, beyond time.

              • Arpana says:

                That’s really big of you, Swami Satchit. Sadly, you’re wrong, but that’s ok. We are all human and can get it wrong sometimes.

                (Well, no. Certain people are never wrong about anything, ever. Can’t happen, but ordinary people like you and me can be wrong).

                • satchit says:

                  Swami Arpana,

                  You can judge me 1000 times as wrong.
                  As long as I know, I’m right, everything is fine :-D

                • satyadeva says:

                  “(Well, no. Certain people are never wrong about anything, ever. Can’t happen, but ordinary people like you and me can be wrong).”

                  I take it you’re referring here to Osho, for example, Arps? In which case, I disagree.

                • Arpana says:

                  @Swami Satchit.
                  LOL. ✌(-‿-)✌

                  It is a great skill to use language, especially given English is your second language, to disarm.

                  ✌(-‿-)✌

                • Arpana says:

                  @satyadeva: 3 March, 2019 at 2:37 pm

                  I can not imagine Osho would disagree with you.

              • satyadeva says:

                I tend to agree with this, Satchit. Too easy to judge someone – how can anyone really know what’s going on in another, all the factors involved, past and present, let alone what’s appropriate for him/her? Enlightened masters included, by the way.

                • Arpana says:

                  Saint SD.

                  You have called the village idiot out even more often than I have; at greater length, and considerably more forcefully. ┐(‘~`;)┌ ✌

                  https://youtu.be/k9olaIio3l8

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ah yes, perhaps so, Arps, in the past, replete as it was with youthful follies…but now, rather like Prince Hal in Henry 1V (Part 1) secrely planned,* at a particular point in life has come a certain, er, ‘sobriety’ of thought, feeling, sensibility and manner, and, as long envisaged, I have foresworn such immature youthful ‘rioting’ in favour of the heavy weight of ‘office’, with its responsibilities and obligations to all of my fellow-citizens of SN. Are not you amazed, in wonder at such a transformation?!

                  *”So, when this loose behaviour I throw off
                  And pay the debt I never promiséd,
                  By how much better than my word I am,.
                  By so much shall I falsify men’s hopes;
                  And like bright metal on a sullen ground
                  My reformation, glittering o’er my fault,
                  Shall show more goodly and attract more eyes
                  Then that which hath no foil to set it off.
                  I’ll so offend, to make offence a skill,
                  Redeeming time when men think least I will.”

                • satchit says:

                  @ satyadeva 2:45

                  Yes. As I see it, the Master creates only the situation.

                  The inner soul makes the decision when the time is ripe. And it is always the soul or call it real self, or whatever.

                • Arpana says:

                  @SD.
                  If I may paraphrase myself,,,

                  LOL. ✌(-‿-)✌

                  It is a great skill to use language to disarm…

                  ✌(-‿-)✌

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Arpana, what does courage have to do with having good karma?

              What do you say about the courage to do without the support of a Master?

              Osho was a coward?

              • Arpana says:

                @ 3 March, 2019 at 2:00 pm

                VF:
                No!!!!

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  I appreciate your honesty, Arpana. You do not have the common avoidance reflection of humans, when they realize they have said bullshit.

                  Did you say some bullshit recently?

              • Arpana says:

                @ VF.

                Can take courage to take up an opportunity, ride the wave of good Karma. We can co-operate with our Karma, or not!!!

                “A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

                Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, “Jump in, I can save you.”

                The stranded fellow shouted back, “No, it’s OK, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me.”

                So the rowboat went on.

                Then a motorboat came by. “The fellow in the motorboat shouted, “Jump in, I can save you.”

                To this the stranded man said, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

                So the motorboat went on.

                Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, “Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety.”

                To this the stranded man again replied, “No thanks, I’m praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith.”

                So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

                Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, “I had faith in you but you didn’t save me, you let me drown. I don’t understand why!”

                To this God replied, “I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?” “

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Are you saying that Osho was an irremediable idiot who preferred to pray to God rather than go along with the law of karma?

                  But God and karma were not on the same side of the belief system in which cowards, who do not like solitary roads, find refuge?

                • Arpana says:

                  @sw. veet (francesco) 3 March, 2019 at 2:52 pm

                  Is this deliberate obtuseness?

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          This is my sharing about couple relationships that MOD ask me to write.

          A few years ago, unemployed, a bit depressed and also exposed to metabolic diseases, I met a sexy and tender girl (23 yo) less than half my age.

          She had a boyfriend but I flirted with her, in the context of a Meditation Centre, we became lovers, at first secretly, and after the discovery by the boyfriend, who threw her suitcases out of the window, openly.

          For me to live that story, which lasted a few months, was to contradict many wise things I had crystallized from my numerous, compared to her, experiences. In retrospect, I am not at all proud of having tried the way, then reached, of intimacy with her.

          Normally, when I decide to flirt it is because I feel good at different levels, and without problems of survival. In that case, instead, through her I felt that I would recover my lost vitality.

          Ok, some justification.

          Her boyfriend, a worker who in his free time preferred to play football than to meditate with Osho, made her complain about the absence in him of the vertical dimension.

          Although without money, I did my best to be kind and helpful to her, for example with her continuous removals and relatively small domestic repairs, then I cooked for her, sang for her, I supported her with my experience to extricate herself from the small and big problems that cities like Rome can create for a South American student – but it was not enough, she was far away much more present, with her grace, her light, her poetry, her paintings…

          I still felt not only in debt but also guilty about her, because she felt guilty with her ex-boyfriend.

          Ideally for me, a love story, as I claimed that was, and not a simple and conscious flirtation of mutual sexual gratification, does not arise from one or more needs to be satisfied but from the abundance on both sides, of already satisfied needs, to be celebrated together.

          In that case I felt intimately, thanks to Osho, the usual prince of the vertical dimension, but tired and miserable for all the frustrated, practical and daily horizontal needs; this is the other aspect of my sense of guilt, not having been able to give my lightness for an invitation to the restaurant or a trip to Florence.

          Initially, I had little conviction about the possibility of being able to satisfy her hormonal needs – unlike me, in full explosion…instead, after some tepid session I found again my manhood, the normal one until a few years previously. I still feel a deep gratitude for the fire that she rekindled in me, and increasingly in debt.

          Someone takes for granted the ability not to identify with the roles that in life and in relationships we play, but in the past, before Osho, what I have just described would have seemed to me an easy game to play, while today it does not seem like that at all, and if it were to look that way it would not be love at all.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      For me, Lokesh, the killer has no distance from betrayal, it is a compact core, so without any space for the witness.

      The killer is honest when he says he has not seen anything, in fact he was blinded by anger.

      I hope it’s not too intellectual for your “sneer sneer” brain.

  11. shantam prem says:

    It is so easy to bullshit about jealousy, freedom and all that stuff. I know one thing: if a follower says to His guru that I was with some other guru for an experience, the real guru will maybe give a hundred sermons full with venom and compassion.

    Who wants to read or listen to nonsense which is just mental? Real humans have real experiences and they make real stories. In every real story, various life forces work in harmony or out of the way.

    • Arpana says:

      Shantam declaims:
      “I know one thing: if a follower says to His guru that I was with some other guru for an experience, the real guru will maybe give a hundred sermons full with venom and compassion.”

      You don’t know this at all. This is just another bit of crap you’ve invented because it fits another of your fucking prejudices.

      Let us not forget, Shantam, you have never been close enough to Osho to speak to him face-to-face, or listen to him speak directly to another human being.

  12. Shantam prem says:

    There is too much myth about being near the living master. Moreover, to write present tense with departed master is a sheer poetry. Poetry created by the selfish, sentimental disciples who are going to play clergy.

  13. Shantam prem says:

    Many people who came to Osho during his shop opening years quite often show their ego erection by asserting, “You have not spoken with Osho, he has not touched you whereas I was initiated, directed by him.”

    I wonder what kind of nonsense is this.

    When He left the body one quotation was doing the rounds: “Once you are with a living master you are always with a living master.”

    I think two, three years later its circulation stopped. Bosses must have felt such words are dangerous for business expansion.

    Comparing oneself with Buddha or Jesus sounds great; fact is, humanity is not that ignorant any more. Moreover, people closer to Osho have shown from their life, it makes not much difference.

    • Arpana says:

      Shantam, is there anything you don’t get jealous about?

      You could have met Osho. You could have talked to Osho, but because you are such a coward you arrived too late.

  14. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Shantam Prem has been quoted by Satyadeva a few days ago – to open up a topic about ‘Sex, Love and Relationships’, including the following:
    “Full of hidden dangers, it’s like a ‘minefield’, he says, but for which there’s one sure solution…”

    Obviously inviting hate speech, mutual contempt, mutual arrogance, speech like it’s been taken out of a maso-sado cabinet, and more of such calibre. “A minefield” – the right word for that what was about to come, much more than less.

    Evidence is that this kind of invitation was taken (much more than less).

    What inconceivable rubbish happening in this Caravanserai these days.´Freedom of speech´? You´re out of your senses! Not to speak of out of any sensitivity – both in yourself and towards the readers!

    • satyadeva says:

      Madhu, you say:
      ““Full of hidden dangers, it’s like a ‘minefield’, he says, but for which there’s one sure solution…”

      Obviously inviting hate speech, mutual contempt, mutual arrogance, speech like it’s been taken out of a maso-sado cabinet, and more of such calibre.”

      Presumably, you’re being ironic here, Madhu, suggesting the article intro was “obviously inviting” all that?!

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Yes, you are right here, MODs; however, a British flavour and British taste of ´irony´ was not my intention, neither am Ivery talented at that expression.

        Simply really wanted to express: “Enough is enough!” and that´s it.

        I would also suggest, the way (and content) a topic thread is put out has indeed some invitations (included) and works then (mostly) according to the state of being, the level of consciousness and life experience contributrs are in. Or even gets lost and gets totally out of the rudder…or is even boring sometimes…

        Some magnetism happening. Very much more so on the viral planes.

        Sometimes, and for quite a while, I’ve felt that moderation too is happening with double standards; and what to do but surrender to that, trying the best to cope and yet express.

        No surprise for me, but heavy then, the (immediate) attack of Arpana, whom I´m sometimes missing as a human being with flesh and bones (embodied on the keyboard, so to say – amidst his lines (besides his quoting the Master, of course! Which I appreciate).

        Don´t at all regret putting out from my side, after these years, what wanted to be shared. I took my time to release it.

        Sincerely -

        Madhu

  15. Lokesh says:

    Why is there so little hate speech on SN?

  16. Arpana says:

    SD,
    It’s a fairly standard thing on internet chat rooms that 90% of the content is provided by 10% of the posters, even true of mumsnet apparently, where people are ever so nice generally and behave the way you know who thinks we should, although it does kick off there at times, and gets heavy.

    If you have any hang-ups or self-doubts the internet will force you to confront those hang-ups, or do what most people do, which is blame everybody else. We are not responsible for the fact that people who want to post here don’t. They are.

    Bear in mind there is almost certainly a lot of vitriolic and abusive criticism going on in some of the heads of some of the readers, and they don’t say anything because they know they won’t get away with it. (I know you read this blog, Tony, yah big wally).

    Last point:
    SN is the only internet site for sannyasins which is not moribund.
    What is being done right here is a better question.

  17. shantam prem says:

    As a concluding paragraph to the article, I wish to add thatguilt is one feeling which distinguishes humans from other animal species.

    We humans can feel guilt through capacity of retrospection, therefore develop all kinds of ways towards redemption.

    As one can observe, Guilt was not part of Neo-Sannyas way of life. Result is also clear.

    In the present western world there are rules and laws and regulations but no visible moral code of conduct; quality of guilt is being ignored or made repugnant by “meditate, all will be fine” kind of quick-fixers.

    • Arpana says:

      In the present Shantam world there are rules and laws and regulations for others, but no visible moral code of conduct for himself. The quality of guilt is being ignored or made repugnant by Shantam’s ugly, self-centred elevation of his personal whim as the ultimate moral expression.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, this really is unadulterated bullshit. Guilt is not a Western phenomenon. It is universal. Your concluding sentence would apply to India more than anywhere else.

  18. Lokesh says:

    Veet says, “except when I duel with Lokesh.”

    Sorry, I must have been out for a walk and missed that.

  19. shantam prem says:

    Veet,
    Why don’t you search and share days and months with some living master of 2019? Almost all the participants here were with living Osho during certain phases of life happening around him.

    Lokesh is very right to point out, Patriarch is no more.

    Really take it as sincere advice and start a voyage.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Lokesh right? An oxymoron.

      But thanks, SP, the points of reference on the path are important, also to avoid walking where the dogs have marked the territory.

      If you were not so satisfied with the presence of a living Master seen from the last row, to whom would you go? To Mini-Osho in Mexico?

  20. Lokesh says:

    Veet, you really do not know what you are talking about half the time. How you react to others is due to karmic consequences, and the same goes for everyone else, including myself.

    Shantam caught my transcendental drift. You did not. Which in a way is a pity because there is something happening and you just do not see it. It is a good example of what Arpana brought up recently in relation to Gurdjieff and people’s chief feature. Your chief feature is usually quite apparent to some people, but if they point it out to you, you in turn will either not believe it or resent having it pointed out to you. It really is your business to work it out for yourself.

    You make a few comments in your above diatribe that are completely untrue and basically coming from a pretty confused and fucked- p perspective. Once again, that is your business. I do not have the inclination to argue the point with you, or prove in some way that I am right.

    If you were to ask for my advice, I would tell you that you need to get out of your head and lighten up. You take life too seriously and trying to work it out with your mind will get you nowhere.

    I suspect one of the reasons for this is that you are not engaging enough in physical activities or not enjoying an active sex life. Maybe I am mistaken about that.

    I am sure you miss the point quite often and I really do not see it as my business and therefore will not engage with any more of your comments for a while because it is boring to do so, basic stuff, a head-trip.

    • Arpana says:

      “Gurdjieff used to say to his disciples, the first thing, the very, very first thing, “Find out what your greatest characteristic is, your greatest undoing, your central characteristic of unconsciousness.” Each one’s is different.

      Somebody is sex-obsessed. In a country like India, where for centuries sex has been repressed, that has become almost a universal characteristic; everybody is obsessed with sex. Somebody is obsessed with anger, and somebody else is obsessed with greed. You have to watch which is your basic obsession.

      So first find the main characteristic upon which your whole ego edifice rests. And then be constantly aware of it, because it can exist only if you are unaware. It is burnt in the fire of awareness automatically.

      And remember, remember always, that you are not to cultivate the opposite of it. Otherwise, what happens is a person becomes aware that “My obsession is anger, so what should I do? I should cultivate compassion.” “My obsession is sex, so what should I do? I should practise brahmacharya, celibacy.”

      People move from one thing to the opposite. That is not the way of transformation. It is the same pendulum, moving from left to right, from right to left. And that’s how your life has been moving for centuries; it is the same pendulum.

      The pendulum has to be stopped in the middle. And that’s the miracle of awareness. Just be aware that “This is my chief pitfall, this is the place where I stumble again and again, this is the root of my unconsciousness.” Don’t try to cultivate the opposite of it, but pour your whole awareness into it. Create a great bonfire of awareness, and it will be burned. And then the pendulum stops in the middle.

      And with the stopping of the pendulum, time stops. You suddenly enter into the world of timelessness, deathlessness, eternity.”

      Osho, ‘The Book of Wisdom’
      Chapter 9
      Chapter title: ‘Watching the Watcher’

    • Did I already tell you that I like you, Lokesh? Well, I have nothing against you, in fact, again, I like you.

      If you want to try to be even more so, when you give me some advice do not put it in a generic astrological or karmic tale about who I am.

      Ask Gurdjieff if now my legion in charge is the reactive one.

  21. swami anand anubodh says:

    Shantam Prem,
    How is the book coming along? Any progress?
    You’re not still sitting in front of a blank page, are you?
    To be fair, I have heard the first word is often the hardest.

    I thought it rotten of Satyadeva, Lokesh and Satchit, to spurn an opportunity to waste some time from their lives by rejecting your offer to collaborate, and also the chance to nickname y’all ‘The Beatles’ has now frustratingly been lost. Thanks, guys!

    A book about ‘Neo-Sannyas’ is long overdue, and written by someone who has never met Osho will be an interesting challenge for the marketing dept.

    If you are suffering from ‘writer’s block’, then let me suggest that elusive opening word – it may help kick-start the creative process…how about: “Once”?

  22. Buongiorno Seniors, Shantam and Satyadeva, taking advantage that there are no tunnels in the proximity I entered your compartment and I listened to your conversation.

    If you want, I would have something to say on the subject…otherwise I would be very sceptical about your athletic constitution of seniors to be able to prevent me from saying it.

    For the moment, only the title, because my pseudo-intellectual habit of going to the gym (3 times: Pilates, Ashtanga Yoga) does not give me enough time now.

    In my opinion, the theme is to distinguish between authority and authoritativeness: the power to occupy a position granted by the hierarchy of an existing structure or the power to occupy a position granted for the recognition of the value of the senior/junior starting from empathy that he succeeds to create.

    I forgot, after the gym and its testosterone discharge, that I will look for a woman to apply the advice of the Senior of the Seniors, Lokesh, and if I’ll be late due tp a good cause, I’ll write tomorrow, or in the night, if I do not sleep, in the company of Greek wine sent to me by meek (except with me) Senior Arpana.

    • @MOD:
      In case it is not something done on purpose, that is to marginalise my inestimable intellectual contribution to the definition of the correct Oshoistic hermeneutics, please place this comment where I intended to position, at the bottom.

      MOD:
      Veet, did you read my note a day or two ago? We have no control over where a post is placed, it happens automatically.

    • satyadeva says:

      “…I would be very sceptical about your athletic constitution of seniors to be able to prevent me from saying it.”

      MOD:
      Don’t count on that, Veet, we have finely-tuned forefingers that can sweep away an unwanted, irrelevant and/or abusive post within split seconds. (And some of us even do as much or more than you in the physical realm, despite verging on almost obscenely advanced years).

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Thank you, Satyadeva, to recognize that I am one of the few who has not been censored, being able to stay within the standards of relevance and good education required by SN, in fact such a censorship would mean that Osho would stop inspiring me (or the MOD in you).

        Btw, I appreciate your tribute to the Italian spirit, such a fire, such a passion….

        MOD:
        You’re most welcome, Veet. But please remember all are treated equally here, no ‘special cases’, you included. Perhaps you can now focus on the topic(s), eg how about allowing your anecdote to be put up, which is actually relevant to the current topic rather than being a separate one?

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          @MOD:
          The art of relating, right? Naturally, I’m doing it, I love myself and I love you, SD, thanks to Osho.

          I know it is not very complex, but love is very simple.

          Complicated at times it is to identify and remove the obstacles against its natural flow, distinguishing them from the limits necessary to defend it.

          MOD:
          Veet, your interesting, longish anecdote re a particular love relationship you had has now been put up (see under March 3, 6.40pm).

        • Arpana says:

          We are actually not all treated equally here, SD.

          MOD:
          Arpana, in a place like this there’ll always be ‘hard done by’ complaints. We aim to be 100% fair and if we get, say, at least 80% (hopefully more) right then I reckon we’re doing ok, because, as Shantam says, it’s a ‘minefield’ out here…

          But anyone’s welcome to challenge what they think is unjust treatment.

  23. Arpana says:

    You’ve eviscerated my authentic rant, SD.

    MOD:
    Post edited.

    As if you don’t know the SN ‘ground rules’ by now, Arpana!

    Besides, one person’s ‘authenticity’ is another’s over-the-top self-indulgence.

  24. Lokesh says:

    Something for Satchit and Arpana to help raise their energy levels.

  25. shantam prem says:

    Catty fight between the two; my support is for Satchit. He writes intelligently and raises questions logically.

  26. swamishanti says:

    Glastonbury is a place with a very high ratio of hippies, SD, unlike anywhere else in the country. I know that from my own visits there.

    Of course they wouldn’t mind a visitor like Ramana, especially with his naked style and sporting that big nappy.

  27. Arpana says:

    So your hate speech and spiteful condemnation of others is virtuous and good, Madhu!!?

    MOD:
    Would be good to ground this with examples, Arpana, as otherwise this could easily descend into yet another slanging match that doesn’t ‘solve’ anything.

  28. Arpana says:

    The point I’m trying to make, SD, is that criticism and disapproval is just that. We all criticise and disapprove of others because we all have expectations of others. If we are here doing so we are not above all this; and Madhu, like Shantam, is highly critical of others, although in fairness Madhu is not in Shantam’s league when it comes to being critical of others, and both have severe problems handling criticism.

    MOD:
    Yes, of course, Arps, but the evidence over the years here is that blanket condemnation of someone or of their views, without going into specific details, points, arguments etc. doesn’t seem to achieve anything, does it, apart from releasing a certain amount of tension?

    It’s down to one of the deficiencies of the medium, I guess, ie the lack of ’3-D’ human contact, which is why Parmartha was determined to limit personal abuse and encourage more ‘civilised’ communication, exchange of views. Not necessarily easy but a goal worth pursuing, isn’t it? Or do you think it’s an impossible, or even not a worthwhile aim?

    Why are there not more contributors here, do you think? Might well be because people are put off by the prospect of their thoughts, feelings and hence (rightly or wrongly) ‘themselves’, being pounced upon, attacked, jeered at and abused by what they might perceive as a bunch of pseudo-spiritual hooligans! Ok, that’s being extreme, but I reckon there might be some truth in it.

    Btw, I’ve been considering contacting the quite large list of registered members of SN to invite them to ‘join the conversations’ and/or write articles. Would be interesting to see the response and any reasons given for decining the suggestion. I suspect the degree of ongoing personal antagonism and vitriol here might well be a major factor for preferring to remain silent.

  29. Arpana says:

    SD,
    I take your point, but a rose is a rose is a rose, and a spade is a spade is a spade; and some people don’t deserve to have their nonsense treated as anything else but the rubbish it is.

    Calling people out is boundary-setting.

    If a child routinely pouts and sulks, in an attempt to get his or her own way, is it cruel and wrong to persistently attempt to set boundaries?

    I can’t imagine you as a teacher put up with much crap from brat kids.

    MOD:
    But has such “boundary-setting” ever succeeded here, Arps? I don’t think so – especially when those attempting to set the boundaries routinely go over them themselves while trying to erect them!

    The only viable “boundary-setting” would seem to be an editorial policy of restricting levels of personal abuse, while allowing personal criticism of course. Not so easy in practice, we find, as you can’t please everyone all the time.

  30. frank says:

    You`re right, MOD.

    SN is like a hoo-hoo hooligan pub that any sane sannyasin would avoid like the plague.

    Roma ultras who have graduated to Poona ultras trying to stab you in the buttocks, Birmingham bootboys race-rioting with Punjabis and the occasional Munchen mad-dog trying to get a bite of the action. Even the Glasgow razor boys are keeping a safe distance these days!

    It`s time to step in and snuff it out before it gets completely out of hand, Sgt. MOD.

  31. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    @MOD:
    If I can afford to add something to the reasonable things you two said, I would say that another thing to consider, together with the number of people writing on SN, is the number of views.

    In the case that they increase, it could be because of the fact that both readers and writers have been better selected.

    If someone writes things better than me, the same that I would like to say, my point of view, why repeat the concept in a worse way?

    Then consider that perhaps with increasing age, being at the pc could be more difficult, like staying alive and healthy.

    So only after having this kind of information can we understand something more about the social effects of the show that we give on SN.

    MOD:
    Good points, Veet, first time we’ve heard this.

  32. Arpana says:

    A video of Frank causing trouble outside the pub on Saturday night.

    https://youtu.be/LLjpDyXjYa0

  33. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    The knife is too much technology, Frank, and hitting behind is not fun.
    The club* is more amusing.

    Sometimes it seems that Arpana, trying to interpose in duels, does not grasp the funny nuances of the comparison between foil and bear’s femur, giving me lessons in fencing, except when I duel with Lokesh.

    *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Club_(weapon)

  34. Arpana says:

    I’m not that much of an ideologue, VF.
    I say things, don’t say things, act, don’t act, because to do so feels appropriate, ok, at the time.

  35. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Arpana, when I have no arguments I find it appropriate not to do or say anything; at most I apologize or reflect, rarely insult.

  36. Arpana says:

    @sw. veet (francesco) 3 March, 2019 at 4:44 pm

    I don’t understand the point you’re making.

  37. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Arpana, you try to say things that you feel appropriate, having already said that you suspect that the point I am making is obtuse, so it is false that you do not understand it. Decide if you are rude, a liar or a slightly confused hypocrite.

    When in relations one arrives at this type of impasse, where neither of the two retreats from the self-referentiality of their opposing positions; a neutral mirror is then necessary through which to look at the whole dynamic.

    The complication in the relationship between two sannyasins is that sometimes everyone pretends it to be more ‘appropriate’ to use their own mirror, as not doing so would imply that it was a bit dirty.

    On your mirror I clearly notice the traces of jam perfectly ordered by the lines of your fingerprints.

  38. Arpana says:

    I asked you a question because I don’t understand what you are saying, to understand what you are saying. You reply by telling my you do know what I am about, and it’s all bad; that I am rude, a liar or a slightly confused hypocrite.

    Ok, VF, if you say so!

  39. frank says:

    Yes, I see what you mean, Veet, but in order to rule the world with the subtle codes of the Mafia’s butlers, who say that Osho was an irremediable idiot who preferred to pray to God rather than go along with the law of karma, were not on the same side of the belief system as those who do not find refuge in the solitary roads between the obtuse relationship between the fridge door and the toilet.

    True, freedom in relationships also has a horizontal component; the important thing is not only that it does not interfere with the vertical one but also that the latter has the possibility to express itself in horizontality and verticality in the context of jammy fingerprints in the presence of a living master.

    The world out there is not as fair as in the British Caribbean islands where Mafia butlers become killers at no distance from betrayal and its compact core which leaves no space for the witness to express his verticality.

    The problem is that here, whatever I say, there is always someone who refutes what I say with the argument that I do not have an existential basis, so I’m always finding myself in a corner to defend myself from intellectual attacks.

    When one arrives at this type of impasse, self-referentiality retreats to opposing positions in a necessary neutral mirror through which to look at the vertical dynamic, in order to decide if you are rude, a liar or a slightly confused hypocrite, or just a pretentious, failed pseudo-intellectual with the morality of a Caribbean Mafia butler and the verbosity of a Punjabi on Prozac.

    MOD:
    Er, Frank, the first paragraph doesn’t make sense.

  40. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Ok, Arpana, now I feel to hug you – can I?

  41. Arpana says:

    @frank 3 March, 2019 at 6:41 pm

    Thank God for a true wordsmith. Awe-inspiringly lucid and cogent.

  42. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Do you understand, frank, why I sometimes use the club with all you butlers?
    Copyrights must be protected!

  43. frank says:

    MOD,
    Your misunderstanding stems from you being in the club of unemotional Britsh butlers serving the interest of Caribbean Mafia, drinking whiskey and listening to your Barry so that when a betrayed man kills his wife who fucked with his best friend usually, then tells the police that he has not seen anything, therefore it is my fair play in unveiling an ethological koan to your wife, who is not as emotional and jealous as an Italian. “The parrot is out, the parrot is in…in, out, in, out, shake it all about….”

    If you’ve learned to be the witness of your life from the unbearable lightness of your haughtiness (the self-deception option) it costs less to experience a prevalence of masochism, preferring to justify yourself with self-indulgence.

  44. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    @MOD
    In almost all the blogs of my Italian friends there is a counter of views, of the single page or the blog, the graph of the monthly trend etc. I think it’s a devil to download.

    MOD:
    Similar exists at SN, Veet, in the form of a map of the world showing where the ‘hits’ are from, although it only records the total number of visits to the SN site. Worth a look, it’s at ‘Who’s Online’, on the red strip just above each article.

  45. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    See, Arpana, how many sincere colleagues in white gloves do you have?

  46. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Fuck you, Frank, but I am not looking for disciples who cling to my words.

    Actually, it is emotional that your philological effort culminates in personal attack without any construct, in fact it surprises me how the MOD allows it, which usually treats the gratuitousness of the attacks as trash, that is, ends in themselves; that is, they do not contribute in any direction other than a bigger fight.

    I will wait as a Zen monk on the river bank till Frank kisses my ass or ask that his shit is flushed away from the toilet of the web.

    Or I will evaluate whether to proceed with the club, obviously not against frank, who has no accountability, except for his mask of cow shit, doing what I usually do with those who do not have arguments against what is said, who fall back on personal attacks against the person who said it.

    MOD:
    It’s unfortunate you don’t grasp the humour of it, Veet; it’s not a serious “personal attack”, just a bit of fun, albeit at your expense. Maybe it’s difficult for you due to the language issue?

  47. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    @MOD
    No, MOD, it does not work, not anymore.
    You can not put in the same sentence “It’s unfortunate you do not grasp the humour” with “it’s not a serious personal attack” with “just a bit of fun, albeit at your expense.”

    For me, what you see from your point of view as “just a bit of fun”, repeated over time, shows something else.

    You here with your butler friends, as it is already some time that I’m insisting, you have the advantage of shared codes that provides a game, “just a bit of fun”, but always at the expense of those who are not part of the gang of old pensioners in white gloves, a game that evidently after a while pushes away those who are not so bored and cynically self-satisfied to play in this little box, where perhaps Osho is just bait.

    Evidently, if so, the background of this game “just a bit of fun” at the expense of sincere sannyasins, would not be appreciated by me. (Btw, do not publish my article, rather delete it, in case waiting to change my mind).

    The first thing I asked Parmartha about was the meaning of “welcomes all sannyasins”.

    And if this suspicion continues to reappear before my eyes then it is possible that it has happened to all the others who stopped publishing here, and then I would like to see clearly, maybe behind the mask of cow shit, that there is some Canadian jerk by Pune – it would make me pissed off even more.

    A compromise would be to change the bait like this: “Welcome to the butlers who like to take a club in the ass”, then you could show all the self-irony you want, without the use of thin codes or vaseline.

    MOD:
    You often enough have interesting things to say, Veet, and you bring your own unique perspective to SN, but in this case we think you take yourself far too seriously, believing yourself to be the victim of an ‘unspeakable’ outrage.

    It’s a shame you seem unable to even partially appreciate that such a reaction merely tends to make you seem rather self-importantly mean-spirited, humourless. (And you’re still welcome here).

    Normally, the last paragraph would be deleted but it’s been left in to show the degree of rage with which you’ve allowed yourself to be possessed. Frankly, a more than considerable over-reaction. No more in similar vein will be published. (And you’re still welcome here).

    Btw, the suspicion that Jayesh might have any influence over SN is utterly laughable, demonstrating how judgment can become easily impaired by emotional imbalance. (And you’re still welcome here).

    Re your “article”, it really belongs as a post – and a good one – at the current topic. So let us know if you change your mind and want it to be put up. You’re still welcome here….

  48. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Quiet, MOD, I play the role of the crazy one just to frustrate your waiting and need of idiots, useful not to feel too bored without anything to talk about.

    There is more than a structural asymmetry in communicating here, beyond those already mentioned, such as the lack of three-dimensionality, the difference in language and cultural conditioning;

    There is also the one, for me fundamental point, about people who speak from outside the Sangha and yet are welcome to “have a bit of fun” at the expense of those who claim to be part of it.

    I think if you really want this meeting place of Osho lovers to thrive in its light then you could begin to face the problem, even if this could end your harmony tested by years of sneering, with the perfect comedic times to which each of you SN veterans contributed, pleased with the accuracy of its operation.

    Since I perceive the ticking of the mechanism more and more clearly I enjoy striking with the club on it, especially when the sound comes from the direction of ‘Osho hater’, but you seem to know each other perfectly.

    I do not like the game, nor the role of an idiot, nor that of a villain who mocks him.

    No drama, there are more important things that unfortunately seem to approach, far from the mental horizon of the butlers.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuu4VKSmOs0

  49. frank says:

    Pomposity:
    the quality of being pompous.
    pompous parading of dignity or importance.
    an instance of being pompous, as by ostentatious loftiness of language, manner, or behaviour.

    pompous
    /ˈpɒmpəs/
    adjective
    adjective: pompous

    affectedly grand, solemn, or self-important.
    synonyms: self-important, imperious, overbearing, domineering, magisterial, pontifical, sententious, grandiose, affected, stiff, pretentious, puffed up, arrogant, vain, haughty, proud, conceited, egotistic, supercilious, condescending, patronizing.
    informal: snooty, uppity, uppish,
    bombastic, high-sounding, high-flown, lofty, turgid, grandiloquent, magniloquent, ornate, overblown, overripe, inflated, rhetorical, oratorical, declamatory, sonorous, portentous, pedantic, boastful, boasting, bragging, braggart,
    highfalutin, windy;

  50. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Cynic, iconoclastic with a butler’s soul:

    The cynics professed a stray life (like dogs that shit in public without shame) and autonomous, indifferent to the needs and passions, faithful only to the rigour of the aesthetic aspects;
    A disposition of disbelief in the sincerity or goodness of human motives and actions;
    Critical, unscrupulous and irreverent towards those who have not studied in Cambridge, motivated by an indiscriminate, destructive controversy but who then supinely adapts to the opinions, tastes and life system of the royal family or the directives of regime intellectuals.

  51. Lokesh says:

    Veet declares, “I do not like the game, nor the role of an idiot.”
    Then why play the role?

    Your problem is, Veet, that you shroud yourself in a cloak of intellectualism, while claiming you are part of a sangha that was created out of a non-intellectual practice. That is why Osho was all for the feminine. Women do not need to think as much as men. They just feel what is happening and take it from there, and they are often right. Your last post, “cynic”, looks like it was copy-and-pasted with a couple of add-ons, which does not help it become any the more interesting. It’s boring head candy.

    You recently spoke about how it’s a drag that people hit you up about never having actually met Osho, and how it frustrates you to be on the receiving end of such comments. That is understandable. What you miss is that there is something behind those comments you simply cannot get.

    Personal contact with Osho was really a special experience that took you out of the need to intellectualise anything in life. It was a state of being that the mind cannot grasp because it was never intended to do so. Of course, it is history now.

    When I look back on the years I spent with Osho it has very little to do with anything he said to me. It was more to do with how I felt being round him. He had the remarkable capacity to lift one out of their mindset into a beautiful space. He is gone now.

  52. shantam prem says:

    Wonder why the hell Osho allowed his talks to be in circulation after his death.
    He should have walked his walk, said, “Shred my words once I am gone, otherwise they will be used to exploit humanity.”

  53. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh is a very clever fox who will never interfere when few faceless ones do their bully work. Has he ever encountered faceless frank?

  54. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Thank you, Lokesh, for your valuable advice on how to be more convincing in the role that is natural to you.

    You know that I love you and I can forgive your lack of intellectual rigour, compensated by your humble devotion to yourself. I know what you’re referring to, in these last days of little presence in the debate your discreet female presence was very perceptible.

    But let me say that for me, no-mind does not coincide with intellectual dishonesty, and, in this case, revealing this misunderstanding requires intellectual work.

    You take it for granted that everything that happens here is inspired by no-mind = intellectual honesty?
    Do not try to prove this, you would take too much energy from activities that you can do better like milking the bull.

    I know the concept of “asymmetry” can be difficult for you, I’ll try to clarify:
    Here you and some of your friends have the advantage of a language with common codes that forces you into precise patterns that give you a comfortable feeling of power/control over people who, unlike you, have a love affair with Osho, although in a foreign language.

    Note that the question “why write here?” you address to me and not to some friend of yours, proud as you to deride Osho and his Sangha.

    P.S:
    Speaking of patterns and control, and not taking into account that some of your friends (not you) do not respond to requests for clarification by the MOD, a recent example is one of my comments written last night and published after a comment written many hours later, and in the end discover that it was positioned to suggest glossing my comment.

    MOD:
    Post edited. As we said yesterday, no more ultra-hostile profanities, Veet, enough is enough.

    Re the positioning of your post, that’s something we have no control over, it’s done automatically. So please cross that off your ‘hard done by’ list!

  55. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    @MOD
    Thank you for your loving attention, but I am not such an irreducible rebel, daring to challenge the rules of this beautiful house.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hOVjGggewE

  56. shantam prem says:

    Love, Sex, Relationship etc. in Sannyas! Let us go into Art of Love group at Corfu, Moskau, Pune, Dharamashala!

    In Sannyas, group leaders know everything better than anybody else, whether it is life, love, death.
    If nobody is fully psychoanalysed, nobody has done enough groups.

    When I look back, I wonder, how cosy it was to sit on the boat created by talks. Power of retrospection is surely not part of mass-floated definition of meditation.

  57. satyadeva says:

    Shantam, I get that you’re highly sceptical of the value of groups. But I don’t get what you mean by the last paragraph.

  58. shantam prem says:

    Satyadeva,
    I am not very sceptical about the value of groups, but only sceptical as their power point presentation is more impressive than the contents and end results.

    Also, they are too expensive for the common seekers, a kind of premium product with teeth-whitening promises.
    I think the time-tested way is when seekers help seekers; the concept of commune fits with this. In other established schools, senior seekers give their wise advice to the juniors in an atmosphere of trust and respect.

    Groups during Osho Commune phase had also a financial purpose. They were the cash cows for the development and expansion of the property. In my rough estimation more than 85% of Pune property is from such money.

    Last paragraph is simply a hilarious irony. At a certain time, I was also thinking, maybe like most of the disciples, what Osho says is a voice of the Cosmos.

  59. satyadeva says:

    Ok, Shantam, so you’re not “highly sceptical”, just “sceptical” about the value of groups. Sceptical enough to suggest that they should be replaced by “senior seekers” giving “wise advice to the juniors”.

    Which, of course, raises questions as to what constitutes a ‘senior seeker’. Surely not age alone? And who would decide who such ‘seniors’ would be? Or would you just leave that to happen spontaneously? Would you, btw, regard yourself as one of the “wise” seniors? Or even, perhaps, as just another ‘junior’?

    Perhaps so-called “juniors” might already ‘know’ more than so-called “seniors”. In which case, would you be prepared to be ‘advised’ by them?

    Not to mention that newcomers or relative newcomers might resent, dislike or mistrust the “seniors”, either individually or en masse. How to guarantee “an atmosphere of trust and respect”? After all, Sannyas attracts rebellious types, not ones all too ready to accept others’ superiority; would-be icononclasts rather than meek conformists.

    Moreover, if you believe the value of the experience of being in a good group can be replicated or somehow bypassed by mere words of advice then you simply demonstrate your ignorance – not surprisingly as you have no similar experience yourself. And yet you’re the one who often likes to trumpet the superiority of ‘real life’ over books, heavily criticising ‘the regime’ in the process!

    And, who knows, any scepticism from “the juniors” might partly arise or be confirmed due to some “seniors” being sorely tempted to take advantage of their’seniority’, exploiting any naivete for their own ‘ends’ (as it were)…Old ways and habits die hard, don’t they? Such relationships might well be full of “landmines”, to use a term from your current article…

    Basically, it’s your conditioned respect for hierarchy I hear operating behind your words, Shantam. And the personal wish for status and a degree of power that has otherwise eluded you.

    I also suspect that your scepticism re the value of groups contains more than a hint of apprehension that participating in even one might be rather too unsettling, taking you right out of your habitual comfort zone where you can dream along quite (un)happily, imagining yourself to be ‘somebody’ in the world of Sannyas, if not ‘the world’, though unfortunately, as yet unrecognised by anyone other than yourself.

  60. anand yogi says:

    Again the absurd baboons fail to understand!

    Osho did not do therapy!
    Mahavira did not do therapy!
    Buddha did not need therapy!
    Guru Palak did not need therapy!
    As one who hails from holy turf of mighty Bhorat, Shantambhai does not need therapy!

    Why should he go to Humaniversity and pay extortionate rates to jump up and down like a rabbit in underpants with cock hanging out?
    He can do at home for free!

    When ashram in Pune is finally cleansed of whiteskin alcoholic baboons who have stolen our religion in broad daylight, Shantambhai will be elevated to rightful place of senior therapist running group for aspirants:
    “How not to fuck up relationships”!

    He will simply tell his life story to juniors and they will immediately understand!

    Yahoo!
    Hari Om!

  61. shantam prem says:

    As a hypothesis, one thing feels a big possibility, westerners with Indian names getting one birth in India to get rounding effect.

    One has to feel the soil and the water, sky and the wind to understand how Indian spiritual masters have become, what they have become.

    Inner wisdom is not like getting mangoes from Lidl but to grow them in one’s courtyard. Why shoot Ramana kind of people’s words when you can live like that?

    India gives this opportunity.

  62. satyadeva says:

    Ah, the ‘innate spiritual superiority through country of birth and nurture’ (aka sheer bullshit) card, the ‘joke(r)-in-the-pack’ from the Joker in the Pack!

  63. shantam prem says:

    Dear Steven Dyson (SD), can you tell when in history some Indians have changed their names into western names in the name of spiritual initiation?

    It is not superiority kind of thing, just matter of fact, Indian soil has some fertility in religious domain.

    Other day I was listening to youtube excerpts of Hindi discourse where Osho mentions rhat in countries too there are male and female.

    India is utterly feminine by nature therefore motherland of masters, saints, mystics. Being scientist is a very male-oriented job so West has single-handed given birth to all kind of sciences.

  64. satyadeva says:

    But, Shantam, never mind about ‘India’s glorious religious history and all-pervading holy vibrations’, that’s just another of your ‘smokescreens’.

    Instead of sliding away from the point, how about a relevant response to my earlier post (2.20pm) re your attitude to groups and your preference for “senior seekers” giving advice to “juniors” etc?

  65. anand yogi says:

    Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

    India is certainly feminine!
    That is why Saints, Masters, Brahmins, all male-oriented jobs, have been having their way with her for thousands of yugas!

    It is true West has single-handedly given birth to all kind of sciences, but do not be too modest, bhai, your single-handed efforts to solve the koan of one hand flapping have also not gone unnoticed in the Akashik recording studio!

    Inner wisdom is not like gaping at mangoes on Lidl check-out girls rack but having own supply in bedroom!

    Yahoo!
    Hari Om!

  66. shantam prem says:

    SD, that post of yours is so full with prejudice and prejudgements, it is not worth to comment on that.

  67. satyadeva says:

    So, Shantam, true to form, you’re unable to even attempt a response to any of the points I’ve raised there. As well defended as usual, you resort to the old trick of declaring it’s ‘beneath’ you to make even one comment’ – how misguidedly arrogant! – thus fooling nobody but yourself.

  68. Arpana says:

    I’m not particularly questioning the reality, but the statement is dishonest. Some pigs are more equal than others at Sannyas News.

    MOD:
    So you don’t have a specific practical problem you wish to challenge?
    We’ve been through this before, Arps, and it makes not an iota of difference, it’s purely a matter of sub-editing convenience.

  69. satchit says:

    Arpana, we are all equal. We all are born, live and die one day. But certainly one is an oak, the other is a rosebush.

  70. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    @MOD:
    Having not yet grasped the ‘editing’ reasons of convenience of SN, I wonder what you mean by “sub-editing”.
    The usual secret code of the Cambridge Skull & Holes confraternity at work?

    But above all, launching gratuitous and generic offences is not even more offensive than personally attacking someone? Since someone could feel authorized to direct them to the many sons of a bitch on SN.

    MOD, if you want, I could try, with my rhetorical skills, to disarm Arpana from his tendency to say appropriate things, and make him spit out the names and surnames.

    MOD:
    Veet, unfortunately for your tendency to look for and imagine ‘conspiracies’, slights and injustices, sub-editing is simply preparing something for publication, ie spelling, punctuation, paragraphs etc. including, here at SN, deleting or modifying any gratuitous abuse, profanities, irrelevancies etc.

    I suggest you return to the topic rather than wasting time and space* on such non-sequiturs.

    *The number of responses to each topic is limited (no one yet knows how to modify this apparent setting).

  71. Arpana says:

    Satchit’s new book is now up for review.

    Title: ‘My Life In Platitude’.

  72. satchit says:

    Now this was really mean, Arpinski.

    I know what your problem is:
    That someone gets a special treatment, and you not.

    Does it hurt your ego?

  73. Arpana says:

    Yes, Satchit, but unlike you, I have decided to go for authenticity rather than platitude and falseness.

    MOD:
    Post edited.

  74. Arpana says:

    You mean the way I’ve hurt your ego by telling you the truth about you living in your head through platitudes.

  75. Arpana says:

    On top of which, self-righteously, you wrote that because of your ego; because, like a leech, you got a little frisson of ego-inflation, you got to feel a little superior. Desperate or what?!!!!

    Go on, start work on your second volume of platitudinous bollocks.

    MOD;
    Post edited.

  76. satchit says:

    Seems a lot of anger coming up in you, Arpana.
    (MOD: “Post edited”).

    Btw, this mirroring game does not function with me and it is a bit boring too.

  77. Arpana says:

    Teensy weensy bit of ego having the last word there, Satchit.

    Anyway, spout your next platitude. Promise I won’t say anything back, and you will have won.

  78. satchit says:

    It is not a case of winning or not, Arpana.

    It’s a case of awareness. You feel inferior because somebody else, and you know whom I mean, gets a special treatment and you not, is it?

  79. anand yogi says:

    Perfectly correct, Arpana!

    Your heroic aggro-fests with Pakis, Krauts and the Auld Enemy have earned praise from all quarters and have left little doubt about who the hardest man in the Brummy Neo-Sannyas scene is!

    Swami Bhorat and Tommy Robinson have both expressed deep admiration for your style. It is certainly necessary to protect borders of home turf from invasion of foreigners who then receive special treatment at expense of straightforward, honest, authentic bootboys such as yourself!

    Bhorat and Tommy have put your name forward as honorary member of EDL (Enlightenment Defence League).

    Yahoo!
    Hari Om!
    Oi!

  80. shantam prem says:

    Maybe comment experts can try to create a mind-storming article.

  81. shantam prem says:

    Let me add some closing statement to the article of this string…

    Those who get the chance to indulge in emotional & sexual infidelity enjoy it totally. It is pure adrenaline kick, therefore creates addictive symptoms.

    The lover or the partner who bears the pain and humiliation feels left aside in the power manipulation of two versus one.

    As I see, if someone is not satisfied with the partner and also cannot channel the dissatisfaction into creative pursuits, he/she must be kind and courageous enough to leave the cosy nest and restart straight line with the hidden lover.

  82. satchit says:

    Expressing feelings is an old Sannyas habit.

    So people can say: “Look at me, how authentic I am! I don’t suppress, I express emotions!

    Looks a bit different, but still the same prison.

  83. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Shantam, in my opinion it is not always true what you say, especially today that there is a trend in vogue, ‘polyamory’, with young people who at least on sex are less messed up than us over 50s.

    Consider also that, strange but true, one can be faithful and adrenally addicted to the same substance and the same pusher for life.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory

  84. satyadeva says:

    Good point, Satchit, containment (with awareness, ie knowing what one’s doing) is surely the way forward from the emotional free-for-all which can degenerate into another sort of power-trip. Although it’s also good to have the ability to express rather than be handicapped in that area. Then there’s the matter of distinguishing between emotion and feeling….

  85. Arpana says:

    Here’s a really good book which will provide you with with lots of interesting ideas about feelings, Satchit:

    ‘The Feeling Function’, by James Hillman.

  86. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    True, Satchit, as Arpana has already said, it is important to distinguish between licentiousness and freedom, which for me means to distinguish between the need to express yourself, respecting the boundaries established with the neighbour, or challenging them.

    But not always the challenge has an egocentric reason, sometimes there can be wisdom/love in saying to someone: “Hey, you, let yourself go!”

    Conflict situations are due when we do not know each other well enough, which often coincides with when we think we know each other very well, the roles between the ‘senior’ and the ‘junior’ not being defined, ultimately a disagreement about the criteria we were talking about before.

  87. satchit says:

    Thanks. Good that you have recovered from your emotions of yesterday.

  88. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Another couple of aspects, Satyadeva, perhaps to be taken into consideration:

    One is that in the context of sannyasins we tend to take for granted the sense of tolerance (not judgment) of our interlocutor, we tend to challenge the boundaries by neglecting the importance, before doing so, of helping to create trust in the relationship, for example by talking about oneself, making one’s point of view comprehensible.

    Another reason for conflict could be related to the difficulty in underestimating the importance of the setting in a therapy session, imagining that we should use all opportunities, even in real life, to challenge our and others’ limits, as if we were in an Osho group, which on average we have all done; the result being we invite and procure invasions but with the complication that the absence of a leader will not evolve them into greater understanding and trust, as is normal in groups.

  89. satyadeva says:

    Although I suppose Polyamory might suit some people (a small percentage), I recall watching the Louis Theroux tv documentary and being distinctly unimpressed by it all. I mean, relationships worthy of the name demand full, whole-hearted attention, commitment, they can be hard work. Having more than one of similar intensity would seem next to impossible for the vast majority.

    The following notes from ‘Wiki’ confirm these impressions:

    “Criticism
    Polyamory, along with other forms of consensual non-monogamy, is not without drawbacks. Morin (1999) and Fleckenstein (2014) noted that certain conditions are favorable to good experiences with polyamory, but that these differ from the general population.[79][81] Heavy public promotion of polyamory can have the unintended effect of attracting people to it for whom it is not well-suited. Unequal power dynamics, such as financial dependence, can also inappropriately influence a person to agree to a polyamorous relationship against their true desires.

    Even in more equal power dynamic relationships, the reluctant partner may feel coerced into a proposed non-monogamous arrangement due to the implication that if they refuse, the proposer will pursue other partners anyway, will break off the relationship, or that the one refusing will be accused of intolerance.[82][83]

    To date, scientific study of polyamory has run into bias and methodological issues.

    A significant number of studies rely on small samples, often recruited from referrals, snowball sampling, and websites devoted to polyamory. Individuals recruited in this manner tend to be relatively homogeneous in terms of values, beliefs, and demographics, which limits the generalizability of the findings.[84]

    These samples also tend to be self-selecting toward individuals with positive experiences, whereas those who found polyamory to be distressing or hurtful might be more reluctant to participate in the research.[84]
    Most of the studies rely entirely on self-report measures. Generally, self-reports of the degree of well-being and relationship satisfaction over time are flawed, and are often based on belief rather than actual experience.[84][83]

    Self-report measures are also at risk of self-enhancement bias, as subjects may feel pressure to give positive responses about their well-being and relationship satisfaction in the face of stereotype threat.[84] This disparity was noted by Moors et al. (2014), who compared respondents expressing interest in consensual non-monogamy drawn from the general population to those drawn from online communities devoted to discussing positive aspects of nonmonogamy.[75]

    In academic works involving volunteer interviews, the participant is almost always a single partner of such relationships or a small group where certain partners are not present, resulting in one-sided views being recorded about the relationship.[83]

    Polyamorous relationships present practical pitfalls:

    One common complaint from participants is time management, as more partners means one must divide one’s time and attention up between them, leaving less for each.[83][85]

    Related is that the complexity of the arrangement can lead to so much effort being spent on the relationship that personal, individual needs can be overlooked.[86]

    Another potential issue is lopsided power dynamics, such as one partner having significantly more resources, being more attractive or being much better at initiating new relationships, making the arrangement clearly more beneficial to that partner than the others.[83]

    The strong emphasis on communication can unintentionally marginalize partners who are less articulate.[86]

    Finally, negotiating the sometimes complex rules and boundaries of these relationships can be emotionally taxing, as can reconciling situations where one partner goes outside those boundaries.[86][83][85]“

  90. shantam prem says:

    What about you, Veet?
    Better we speak from our own realities rather than quoting convenient cliches like, “We are all Buddhas.”

  91. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Shantam, if it is not a cliché, whom do you want to be interested in the quotations from our individual realities?

    Btw, I have already spoken from my own realities, but you, obviously, were too busy with your buddhahood and have neither read nor commented on it.

  92. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Satyadeva, to me the most critical aspect of relationships is the attachment, my or my partner’s, so I mentioned the polyamories, imagining that the new generations of talking monkeys were less attached to the instinct of the alpha male, but this type of relationship could concern only those who want to experiment with variety, since there is no previous and profound need for intimacy.

    To me today, as a satisfied single, it gives me a headache to think about the hypothesis of sharing intimacy with more than one woman, not to mention the problems of competition in case of the presence of other men.

    However, polyamory seems to support more the instinctual nature of the male than the female one, if without the presence of other active males claiming their share of cake.

    It seems that usually for women one male is enough, although the best of the pack; the problems arise when he is found not to be such.

  93. shantam prem says:

    Veet,
    Satisfied single is great state, like a taxi which is standing still. I know this very well…then came a butterfly!

    So start the stories….