Self-Deception In Spiritual Circles – Shantam Prem opens a discussion

Shantam writes:
I think self-deception in spiritual circles, specifically in ‘New Age’ spirituality, needs to be discussed in all its variables. I can offer myself as a model to see the visible traits. For my side, I will use the life stories of professionally successful people to point out their self-deceptive traits. I also think this quality used properly is very much part of the basic flour of branded cookies!

First of all, here’s what google search says about self-deception:

“The action or practice of allowing oneself to believe that a false or unvalidated feeling, idea, or situation is true.”

Wikipedia has also an article about self-deception, two paragraphs from which I copy here:

“Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument. Self-deception involves convincing oneself of a truth (or lack of truth) so that one does not reveal any self-knowledge of the deception.

Self-knowledge (psychology)
While seeking to develop the answer to this question, self-knowledge requires ongoing self-awareness.

Deception
Deception is a major relational transgression that often leads to feelings of betrayal and distrust.

It has been theorized that humans are susceptible to self-deception because most people have emotional attachments to beliefs, which in some cases may be irrational. Some evolutionary biologists, such as Robert Trivers*, have suggested that deception plays a significant part in human behaviour, and in animal behaviour, more generally speaking. One deceives oneself to trust something that is not true as to better convince others of that truth. When a person convinces himself of this untrue thing, they better mask the signs of deception.”

*Robert Trivers studied evolutionary theory with Ernst Mayr and William Drury at Harvard from 1968 to 1972.

After these analytical and somehow academic interpretations of self-deception, let me share one Osho story. This story has stayed with me from the time I heard it in the Zen series during 1988-89:

A few monks are on the way to their mountain monastery after spending a day in the nearby city. The journey is long and steep. Surely there were no bicycles or scooters as we had during Pune Ashram days.

Once they got tired, they took a break at a roadside tea shop. The tea shop was run by a lady, and it was the first time they had noticed its existence, and the first time they had come across a tea shop run by a lady.

They ordered tea and started discussing the essence of Buddha’s teaching. There must have been someone like Lokesh who provoked others, as he does at sannyasnews (eg “What do you mean by Osho´s Work, Osho´s Vision, or the essence of Not-So-Neo-Anymore-Sannyas?”).

The lady brings the teapot and the cups but it seems as if they have forgotten even to say thank you. They must be in attacking/defensive logic mode the way it happens between Arpana and many others.

The lady notices this hot discussion among the budding priests and maybe future zen masters just like Arun or Ozen or so many others. (This Shantam too feels there is an inner calling in him to create his own ashram which will be very simple in design and approach. One can call this self-deception or a feeling of grandiose ambition, but I will say it’s a simple wish. Those who study medicine also feel a calling to have their own clinic or hospital).

In between, the tea is getting cold, while the discussion is still at boiling point. The tea stall lady intervenes by saying, “Excuse me, gentlemen, let me do some meditation among you wise people.”
The nonks feel a bit awkward, one of them asks,, “This is very new for us. We are feeling surprised. So tell us how you will meditate among us.”
The lady says, “It is very simple. One of you who is very sure of knowing the Essence of Buddha’s Teaching can initiate the tea ceremony.”
The monks look at each other…It is almost ‘catch 22′ for them.

Seeing the hesitation on their faces the tea stall lady takes one cup, fills it, sips the tea and leaves the place for the monks to drink and contemplate.

One can also say this lady is full of self-deception.

Let the discussion roll….

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237 Responses to Self-Deception In Spiritual Circles – Shantam Prem opens a discussion

  1. Arpana says:

    Shantam, if you were to actually do something about setting up a meditation centre I would be the first to congratulate you, but we both know it’s not going to happen. You’re far too stuck in whining and carping and complaining about the world around you to actually do something.

    By the way, in my mid-20s I started a project to set up an art centre where I lived, and succeeded; an art centre which began to draw in hundreds of people on a regular basis, and which lasted about four years, and this was before I’d even heard of Osho. (The project ended when I went off to India after taking sannyas). So if you need any tips about how to do more with your life than bitch about everybody around you, please don’t hesitate to ask.

    • shantam prem says:

      Arpana, may I request you to write something about your personal traits of self-deception? You are wise enough to find such traits also in the founder and subsequent leaders of the cult who gave you the new name.

      • Arpana says:

        One of the more painful self-deceptions I came to Sannyas with after a difficult childhood, and having to attend 11 schools, was that I was the worst human being who ever walked the face of the earth, slightly offset by an occasional sense of myself as superior because I read a lot.

        • Levina says:

          That’s beautiful, comically sa(i)d, Arpana!

          • Arpana says:

            @Levina 13 February, 2019 at 7:20 am.

            The word “buffoon” really stands out here. I just feel silly now, without beating myself up.

            “A sorry lack of perspective”, he added, laughing ruefully. “Somehow we know deep within our souls the direction we are to take, but very often that buffoon which we call the ego makes such a fuss that we cannot hear the inner voice.” (Marie~Louise von Franz)

      • Arpana says:

        Shantam, may I request you to write something about your personal traits of self-deception? You are wise enough to find such traits also in the founder and subsequent leaders of the cult who gave you the new name.

      • Arpana says:

        Then, Shantam, there was my delusion after I returned from Poona the first time, that I was an exceptionally outstanding sannyasin, but that only lasted 2 or 3 months because I was rather taken with the other Osho people I was mixing with, and I fairly quickly felt ashamed to have such a shifty attitude to people I liked so much. Unlike your delusion you are Osho’s successor, which has now been going on for 30 years.

  2. Arpana says:

    ” The lady brings the teapot and the cups but it seems as if they have forgotten even to say thank you. They must be in attacking/defensive logic mode the way it happens between Shantam and many others.”

    • shantam prem says:

      Arpana,
      Print this article and your comments and dare to show them to any psychiatrist. I am sure NHS offers psychoanalysis too.

      Two years ago, I have taken 22 sessions because of difficulty to adjust in the real day-to-day life of a foreign country after spending years in an international community around a charismatic Indian mystic in my own country.

      Few months after my psychoanalysis, I got the job in a leisure park. I think many of the sannyasins need to work for their livelihood like all the masses and commoners.

      • Arpana says:

        You don’t need psychoanalysis. Shantam.
        Just stop being such a pompous, self-important prick.

        I got over the difficult childhood with the help of Osho and meditation years ago.

        MOD:
        Post edited (point made in your previous post, Arpana – give him time to respond!).

        • satyadeva says:

          I think you might underestimate what Shantam’s had to cope with, Arps. Good that you came through ok, but everyone’s different and Shantam’s background and circumstances were very different from yours.

          Your dismissive attitude almost smacks of our parents’ generation’s “You lack moral fibre, snap out of it!” approach, which, as you well know, had its, er, considerable ‘drawbacks’.

          • Arpana says:

            I’m pretty sympathetic to anyone’s life difficulties, SD, and I don’t deserve that remark.

            Believe you me, mate, I am not some macho dickhead; but really, we should allow a guy who believes himself to be Osho’s successor, who is a racist who criticises and dismisses all white sannyasins, to get away with the self-serving, self-deluding shite he posts?

            I’ve taught art students with more self-awareness than he has, and believe you me a lot of art students take the biscuit when it comes to grandiose self-importance, but they are late teens, early twenties; not a man around sixty, who I reiterate believes himself to be Osho’s successor.

            Although if you are saying Shantam is mentally ill and you are making a plea for an extremely high level of tolerance for him?????

            • satyadeva says:

              I do realise you’re not any sort of “macho dickhead”, Arps, which is why I’m surprised that you seem to find no vestige of empathy/understanding of what he’s had to cope with.

              It sort of reminds me of how you respond to Lokesh, a kind of ‘blanket’ negativity.

              So what, for you, is the common factor behind how you view both Lokesh and Shantam? What really is it that presses your buttons so violently in both cases? I ask because I think it might be very similar, or the same cause.

              • Arpana says:

                I only just found out about Shantam’s difficulties, SD, and as for Lokesh, the man who routinely denigrates anyone who puts up with him, you think he needs defending by you?
                Seriously!

              • Arpana says:

                What Shantam and Lokesh have in common?

                Easy…

                Grossly over-inflated sense of their own importance. Gross double standards, allthough Lokesh has at least done something with his life that deserves respect.

                • satyadeva says:

                  I mean something in you, Arps, the source of your hatred, not its object, we know all about that by now.

                • Arpana says:

                  @satyadeva.12 February, 2019 at 2:11 pm.
                  I am not sure to what you are alluding. Psychoanalyse me freely, and post your conclusions, but also think about why you are so defensive of them.

                  If you are trying to spare my feelings, don’t worry about it. Say your piece.

                • satyadeva says:

                  No time until probably tomorrow, Arps, but re being “so defensive of them” I simply find it very interesting, fascinating.

                • frank says:

                  SD takes Arpana for his weekly psycho-analysis session:

                • satyadeva says:

                  Very nice, Frank, an excellent portrayal of the situation (both characters representing two conflicting yet somehow psychically interdependent elements within each of the protagonists, of course, don’t you think?).

                • frank says:

                  Exactlich, mein herr Doktor!
                  Some autonomous complexes arising from der defence mechanisms constellating in a confrontation between repression und der ego-ideal in der unconscious, ya?

                • Arpana says:

                  @12 February, 2019 at 3:38 pm

                  I can go along with “fascinating”. It’s slightly voyeuristic (not intended as an insult), bit like watching a play in the theatre. Things go on here which I find riveting.

                • satchit says:

                  Two monks shadow boxing (Jungian style). No tea available.

      • satyadeva says:

        Shantam, was it actual psychoanalysis or psychological counselling that you received in Germany?

      • Arpana says:

        Shantam,
        Meditate for an hour a day for a month.
        Go on. I dare you!!!

      • satyadeva says:

        What makes you think “many of the sannyasins” don’t (or didn’t, before retirement age) “work for their livelihood like all the masses and commoners”, Shantam?

        Do you now regret not doing this yourself instead of hanging out in Pune all those years? (Yes, I know you worked a bit at the ashram but that’s not the same as being ‘out in the world’, is it?). Do you regret not practising law, perhaps?

        Strangely enough, this comment of yours remnds me of Arpana’s “You don’t need psychoanalysis” post, there’s more than a whiff of a similar tone of impatient, parental-type, authoritarian hectoring (‘What are you, a useless wimp? It was good enough for me, so it’s good enough for you, my boy!’) in both his and your comments. Perhaps you have more in common with each other – at one level – than you both realise!

      • swami anand anubodh says:

        Shantam Prem,

        When you were evicted from your comfortable lifestyle in the Pune ashram, did the Resort management’s power also extend to being able to evict you from India as well?

        Or was the traumatic culture shock of living in a foreign land a result of you freely choosing to leave?

        Would you please clarify.

      • Levina says:

        Is this a joke, Shantam?

  3. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    You say, Shantam Prem, “I can offer myself as a model to see the visible traits.”

    Thank you very much for your offer, I’ll take it.
    And I am looking forward ahead patiently to your further finding manifold proofs you promise to deliver re other “professional successful people” being in “self-deception”. As a true expert from the inside-out.

    Thanks in advance,

    Madhu

  4. frank says:

    Self-deception is like acting but becoming the part that is being acted. That is, forgetting that it is a part and identifying with it.

    The quality of the acting doesn`t even have to be that high, the important part is that the actor is convinced/believes himself. Sometimes this convinces and attracts others because many people would love to lose and forget themselves like this and have such belief/self-belief, but can`t do it.
    To others it just looks absurd (see Swami Brian and Dhyanraj etc.).

    It has ‘evolutionary biology’ advantages because if you are enlightened, the ex-heavyweight champ or whatever, people will give you kudos, money, their bodies or at least buy you a drink!

    Humans get well-fed by deception of course. First with animals then with each other. Look at fishing, using traps, nets, social systems, structures etc., but how can a `self` deceive `itself`? It`s paradoxical really.

    “To believe is to know you believe and to know you believe is not to believe.”

    We all have to act parts in life. It`s totally normal and necessary. The issue is how much do we feel we need it and how much can we let go of it? If you ask these questions you may be inoculated a little from the worst of the illness of self-delusion.

    • Lokesh says:

      “If you ask these questions you may be inoculated a little from the worst of the illness of self-delusion!”

      Very concise and somewhat poignant conclusion from Senor Frank.

  5. I always struggle to understand the English-German-Punjabi humour of Shantam, but where he speaks of self-deception by attributing to Lokesh the role of provocateur of those who are afflicted by it, then it is difficult not to laugh.

    That is, he puts at the same table about twenty smart guys (including SP and Lokesh) to talk about the essence of the Buddha, deciding before that the only one who does not deceive himself is the one who believes that there is no Buddha, and consequently no essence to talk about…

    Then, I Definitely am self-deceiving about Osho.

  6. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Friends,
    Just very recently I listened to the radio to a story coming from South Africa:

    It happened in a remote village…
    A bunch of people, trying to find a solution to cope with the utter harrassment one of the youngsters (a sixteen year-old boy) who was acting out towards most of the villagers.

    The villagers gathered for counsel and decided unanimously for the following punishing treatment: the boy had to sit for a whole length of a weekend in the middle of a circle gathering of all the villagers, who were from their side calling out loud, “We love you, we really love you.”

    The radio report then informed more about the African Philosophy of ‘UBUNTU’.

    I recommend the following TED talk to shed more light* onto that:
    https://www.ted.com/talks/boyd_varty_what_i_learned_from_nelson_mandelautm_campaign=tedspread&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=tedcomshare

    For whosoever here who wants to open up to such stuff.

    Madhu

    * Belongs to the thread topic, believe it or not,

    • Levina says:

      Yes, Madhu, thank you, also in my experience, after many roundabouts, to love the deception (with clarity) is the way out of it!

  7. Lokesh says:

    Self-deception permeates not only our psyche but also our society. “Buy this AMG Merc and you will be king of the road. Put on these designer label, hippy-chic clothes and you’ll be queen of the underground. Drink our Detox special and you’ll never get cancer.” Of course, it’s a fucking con.

    In the eighties I became enchanted by Mercedes classic coupes. Made some money and bought one. As soon as I drove it out the garage I thought, “What the fuck is this all about?” Sold the car a few years later after I was showing off to a couple of sannyasin friends what a fast driver I was. Overtook a line of cars at 180kph and missed an oncoming bus by a few centimetres. The guy in the back seat complimented me on my driving skills. I swallowed hard. We’d missed death or serious injury by a finger length. I could not deceive myself. I was an irresponsible asshole and there was no denying it. Sold the car a couple of weeks later for half what it was worth. Lesson learned. Self-deception can be dangerous.

    I think it was Arpana who mentioned the other day about how Gurdjieff used to talk about people’s main characteristic, and how it was your task to find out what your one is. ‘Chief feature’ is something we all have. Peculiar thing about it is nobody can tell you what it is, because you will either resent them for pointing that out to you or you simply will not believe what they are telling you is true.

    You see plenty of that here on SN. It is very human to point personal traits out in people but it is rare for anyone to take your pointers on board. And so we stumble along in the darkness, unaware we are doing this, being that etc., while those around us think why can’t he, she see what an absolute fool, bigot, asshole they are being? It is never-ending, because our self-deception knows no bounds. It is limitless.

    Therapy is one way to cut to the chase. I remember Veeresh once saying to me in an Aum Marathon, “If twenty people are telling you that you are a donkey it might be time to start wearing a saddle.’ In Gurdjieff’s teachings he talks about taking psychological snapshots of yourself.

    There are many ways to work on your self- deception. You have to find what works for you and if you are smart you will want to work on it because self- deception inevitably brings you into trouble, even if you have to wait until you are on your death bed to face the music, sooner or later it catches up with you.

    But who is this self that is fooling itself? If you go into Advaita Vedanta you will find there is no real self to be deceived. If you go into Mr G’s work you have to ask what self of the legion that inhabit your being is deceived and so forth and so on.

    I’ve heard it said that if you wake up with some form of conscious shock and see the extent of the deception you are living in the impact might well drive one insane in the ultimate dark night of the soul. Yes, I have seen things that make me conclude that there is a lot of truth in that.

    I see a lot of self-deception going on in sannyasins’ imaginary relationships with Osho. When Osho was alive and you could sit in front of him, speak to him, communicate with him, there was no kidding yourself on about what was happening, because the old man would have caught you at it and pulled you up in your tracks big time. Now he is dead and gone, gone, gone and when the cat’s away the tricky mice will play.

    And so it has happened that we have all manner of interpretations of what Osho is about from people who never actually met him and breathed in what was being emanated from Osho’s being while he was alive. It was a tangible transformative force. If you never experienced it first-hand there is no way on earth you can know what I am talking about. Osho had an inbuilt bullshit meter that would have been in the red were it directed at the crap that is being perpetrated in his name today. And then…he would have chuckled, because he really knew that ultimately nothing really matters. Yeah, nothing really matters. I like that.

    If friends start telling you that you are fucking up it might be time to sit down and have a look at what they are talking about, otherwise you are just another stupid shit among many. Probably one of the best tools I have at my disposal for dealing with self-deception.

    There is a reason that we deceive ourselves. We just do not want to look at the naked reality of who we really are, because it is probably pretty terrible, at least in the beginning when one first discovers how false and manufactured our outer crust is. Good news is we can do something about that. We can work on it by bringing awareness to our psychological darkness. We are not who we think we are. A simple sentence that says so much about our self-deception.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      “I remember Veeresh once said to me in an Aum Marathon, “If twenty people are telling you that you are a donkey it might be time to start wearing a saddle.” (Lokesh)

      For me, Lokesh, Veeresh was just telling you to go get that fucking saddle, otherwise he would contradict the moral in The Ugly Ducking’, an invitation to follow the majority, and not your donkey nature.

      • Lokesh says:

        Veet, you presume. Veeresh was talking to me, not about me.

        You only seem to know how to be on the attack, which blinds you to what is actually being said and realizing there may be different perspectives to be interpreted. Like a wee bull charging a red blanket with a boulder behind it.

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          Lokesh, reread what you had written before, you were just using Veeresh’s phrase to support the thesis ‘feedback: true/correct’.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        I second your second paragraph (12 February at 11:41 pm) here; Veet Francesco.
        There have been very good reasons that Veeresh has been honoured with these very rare private meetings with the Master in Pune II.

        Re addiction and delusion-marks in terms with addictions, late Veeresh, one of the former very venerable Therapists has been the one (with a life story even before Sannyas as a practising profound expert) who
        couldn´t be deceived by almost all the masks addictions of any kind can take.

        Veeresh´s discerning capacities re symptoms of drug abuse were pretty much as clear as discerning symptoms of fanaticism as well. Knowing that the latter also leave their traits in inbuilt physiological substances with similiar effects on the psyche and the mental structure, not unlike those due to biochemical abuse!

        So – Veeresh has been one of the very rare Individuals opposing some ‘Ranch-Rules’ YET staying connected with the whole and with the Master, so to say, and that with Love.

        Encouraging many fellow-travellers, looking after ‘Being’ themselves, and getting stronger re that Issue.
        As always, in any case, He (Veeresh) was often imitated by his entourage or fan club, one can say.

        The way (Path) to embody Being will always be a very unique and individual one in the end; using at best the wisdom and help we got (we´re getting) if we are fortunate) here and there.

        Courageously and NOT knowing what may be the outcome, if we so dare.
        No guarantee – not unlike ‘Life’ as such, more simply said.
        A present – a ´Prasad´.

        With Love

        Madhu

        • frank says:

          Madhu, you say:
          “Re addiction and delusion-marks in terms with addictions, late Veeresh, one of the former very venerable Therapists has been the one (with a life story even before Sannyas as a practising profound expert) who
          couldn´t be deceived by almost all the masks addictions of any kind can take.”

          Much as I enjoyed my visits to the Humaniversity back in the late 80s, staying up all night for a week dancing, shouting, working, shagging, partying in the Boozeria, hanging loose in the sauna, running naked en masse into the North Sea at 5 in the morning and all the rest of it, I really cannot agree that Veeresh`s track record with treating addiction was anything to write home about.

          Right here on SN our venerable Lokesh has described how a Veeresh weekend in the 70s turned him into a decades -long tobacco addict. This story is very much par for the course in my experience. Most people I knew came out of Humaniversity doing more gear than when they had gone in!

          Read Veeresh`s interview with Osho on the Ranch in 85(?) it`s one of the most nonsensical things I have heard in the Sannyas scene. Osho saying “Don`t bother about getting people off the drugs first, just teach them to meditate and the drugs will drop” and Veeresh mumbling “Wow!” . What utter nonsense!

          And did you hear Veeresh`s interview with Johnny Walker on Radio 2 in 2006? (It`s prob still online somewhere) My God, he really sounded like a deranged cult-leader. Describing (his rehab technique?) how he had kept his son off heroin by threatening to break his legs if he ever caught him doing it. And trying to butter up Johnny Walker with “I really like your voice, man.”

          He ran a fantastic, in-yer-face, rock `n` roll, blow your mind, spiritual gangster therapy entertainment show with plenty of the old Ian Dury over there, but getting wasters clean and removing people`s delusions?

          Nah.

          • Arpana says:

            Frank.

            Do you think you were born with the ability to track down stories, have experiences, that enable you to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that pretty much everybody, but you and Lokesh, is a piece of shit, or is that the outcome of years of dedication to your craft?

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            Thanks for adjusting my post by putting your experience onto the table here, Frank.

            I´m taking that in.

            Have never been part of the Humaniversity tribe myself.
            However, knew some of those here – other than you – who came out of it quite succsessfully, enjoying Life, Life – as it is.

            Madhu

            • frank says:

              Arps,
              Like all genius: 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration….

              • Arpana says:

                Frank, I have always, also, admired your unassailable aplomb. (ツ)

              • satyadeva says:

                You’re a throwback, Frank, to the glorious days of the modest, mild-mannered English hero. You know, think Stanley Matthews, Billy Wright, Denis Compton, Peter May, the Bedser twins – and, of course, the greatest of them all: Biggles! A true generation-spanner (-in-the-works)!

              • Lokesh says:

                Hi Frank,
                Last time I saw Veeresh was on Ibiza a couple of years before he died. We spent an afternoon together getting artist’s supplies so he could paint while on the island. I enjoyed seeing him and being with him in a normal life situation. On that level he was a sweet man.

                Back in the day, I always wondered why Osho gave him so much juice…I think he saw Veeresh as a good herald for his cause. I lived in Poona from ’74 to ’81 and watched Veeresh come and go and alwys receive special treatment from the old man. Beats me. I just saw Veeresh like everyone else…just another fish in the tank.

                I met Meera one day in downtown Amsterdam. She asked me where my centre was. I patted my breastbone and said, “Round about here. How ’bout you?”
                She says, “Humaniversity.”
                I laughed and she asked me why.
                I replied, “Humaniversity is the last resort. That’s where you go if you’re really fucked!”
                She seemed a bit taken aback.

                I did like her paintings. I was surprised how normal she was that day…kinda straight arrow.

                • frank says:

                  Hi Lokesh,
                  Good to hear that he was a nice chap 1-to-1.

                  Actually, Humaniversity was probably the last resort for people who wanted to get really fucked!

                  Arps,
                  I wouldn’t have made it as a cult leader as I never really developed a taste for women half my age! I tried it a couple of times but they act like you`re their dad and then you end up acting like their dad! Weird! I`m more of an even-stevens/take your chances with getting a rolling-pin on the head type of guy!

                • Arpana says:

                  Frank,

                  You told me before about your love of rolling pins, and rolled-up sleeves, northern girlfriends like “Benidorm Janice”.

                  I laughed my socks off.

                • frank says:

                  Yes, and I also stand by my opinion that if Osho had got himself a proper no-nonsense northern girlfriend none of that anch nonsense would ever have happened!

                  “What time d`ye call this then, and where the bloody `ell have you been?
                  The dentist? Again? That’s the 6th time this week, no one`s got that many teeth in their `ead! I`d say he must be the first dentist to be corgi-registered…
                  I don’t trust that doctor of yours either, are you sure he’s got your pills right? I saw him staggerin’ about legless with an empty bottle of gin and a fag hanging out his mouth t`other day, dunt seem very `ealthy to me…
                  Oh, and that secretary of yours called round today, summat about rewiring the place…she`s a a mardy cow, that ‘un, an` bent as a nine-bob note, an` all that one, I`d show `er the door if I were you…
                  And have you seen the state of those disciples o` yours? Daft as a brush they are…
                  You need to get out more, I don’t know…sitting round the `ouse all day watching telly, and what’s that you’re watching now? ‘Patton’?
                  Again? While there’s trouble at t`commune?
                  Give me strength, I don’t know why I bother, I really don’t…
                  That’s it….Get out there and sort out your bloody commune, or yer dinner`s in t`bin, Chucky, and that`s final….”

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Frank, are you saying that the intensity of that week in Egmond A.Z. has not created a gap in your routine, from which you then started at least more energized and more stable on your legs than before?

            I just ask that because I don’t know what an “efficient therapy” is for you, the one to snatch the sneer on the face of your comfort zone.

            • frank says:

              Hi Veet,
              “Efficient therapy” – that sounds like a euphemism you`d find in some totalitarian set-up!
              But I guess what you are asking is did the therapy work?

              I can`t give a definitive answer to that.

              In the case of someone who is suicidal becoming life-positive or of an addict becoming clean, it`s relatively possible to talk of effectiveness of therapy. Otherwise, it`s effectively story-telling.

              I leave everything open. If the future is not fixed then nor is the past.

              So Humaniversity, for me, was/is great fun, eye-opening and a breath of fresh air that left me more energised, although after free drinks all night at the Boozeria, probably not “more stable on my legs than before.”
              It was/is also a cultic delusion, something to be seen through. And a load of other things beside.

              “Being in uncertainties, mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason” is quite therapeutic.

              Btw, did you know that the origin of the word ‘therapeuts’ was the name given to helpers at dream incubation temples in Ancient Greece, the Asclepieium, whose job was to look after the people who came there to get healed by having a big dream or vision? They didn`t offer advice or interpret their dreams. They just made sure the dreamers were ok.

              Sit with the dreaming and let it come through is what I would say.
              That`s what I do. But then, I`m 60 now,and I was about 30 then.

              • satyadeva says:

                Ah, yes, “negative capability” – the world could do with a lot more of that…Takes me back to those highly stimulating Eng. Lit. classes. Good to know your expensive education wasn’t totally wasted, Frank…

                https://qz.com/938847/john-keats-theory-of-negative-capability-can-help-you-cultivate-a-creative-mindset/

                • Arpana says:

                  Give us a quick precis of negative capability, SD. I would be interested to hear a summation from you.

                • satyadeva says:

                  It’s all at the link, Arps (my post, 11.40am).

                • frank says:

                  Hi SD (well spotted, by the way),
                  You say:”Good to know your expensive education wasn’t totally wasted, Frank.”

                  I wish…I wish…

                  I found out about `negative capability` and Keats several decades after school.
                  I did go to a ‘good’school but I got booted out before I had a chance to read any decent stuff.

                  So I am a bit of an auto-didact, really.

                • Arpana says:

                  I know about negative capability, and I’ve read the article, and I am interested as to how you might sum the concept up, but if you don’t feel up to the challenge I won’t press you.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Arps, sorry, I have no time, I’ll soon be out until lateish.

                • Arpana says:

                  SD, have a good day.

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Thanks, Frank, I subscribe.
                My vision as a therapist, working above all with myself and indirectly with the people around me, is that we can “function” as an open system, sensitive to interactions with the multitude of other open systems, accepting this complexity is a symptom of health , that is, not feeling alien compared to other men, and more often love each other.

                From what I remember of my training as a therapist, the technique with the highest standards of efficiency in achieving the goal, placed before as part of the session setting and shared by client and therapist to prevent any on the road totalitarianism, is the one that use induced sleep.

                Being for me the meditation necessary to give the correct existential perspective to therapy, otherwise it would be just an improvement of the “horizontal system performance”, in this sense, and to paraphrase the old guy, the “Meditation is the first and last induced sleep” , the last conscious self-deception.

                • frank says:

                  Hi Veet,
                  I am struggling with your second paragraph re,”the technique with the highest standards of efficiency in achieving the goal…is the one that induced sleep.”

                  It`s not clear what that could be: Sex? Hypnosis? Sleeping pills? A joint? A few drinks? Something else?

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Ciao, Frank, I was talking about Milton H. Erickson, and the suggestion to induce the trance “one, two, three …this is the first and last freedom.”

                • frank says:

                  Veet, I see. It wasn`t totally clear.

                  The one thing I always wondered about Milton Erickson was: did people really go in to trance and do what he said because his techniques were so slick, or did it have a lot to do with the fact that he was a doctor in the US in the authoritarian 1950/60s when both his clients and his students would have found it difficult to not obey him due to the status of a doctor at that time?

                  How much of the success of his hypnosis was really predicated on the authoritarian nature of the therapeutic relationship?

                  Tests also show that people are more likely to report hypnotic experiences with famous hypnotists than random people even if the random person is a trained hypnotist, in the same way that people laugh more at the jokes of a professional comedian than some guy they`ve just met.

                  Having status is the name of the game.

                  Look at SD. An enlightened guy told him to go chill and cruise for talent on a sunny beach, and he takes it as a stroke of genius. If some bloke down the pub had offered the same advice, he probably would have scoffed and said: “I`m too much on the path of enlightenment for that sort of thing.”

    • shantam prem says:

      Yesterday evening, after Sauna wellness, I have read this wisely sweet post of Lokesh. Before sleep, the pictures were coming to the surface of three, four hours with him. Resources are limited, so much new is there to see, so I don´t think one time more Ibiza will be visible, so last Ibiza visit will stay, the way Lokesh has memories of 1970s Pune.

      After Pune disillusionment, Lokesh has really chosen one of the nicest place in Europe where all the elements of life are more or less in harmony. Many times 20 expats create a better network of extended family feeling which is not possible in a big metropolis. My friend lives in a village of few houses, neighbours already know Christina has someone in her life. In a small village one is part of the pot, in a big city everyone is on their own. Still the big cities have their own charm. I will prefer to be in Freiburg, the Oxford of Germany, there is electrifying energy of intellect and innovation.

      From the time of tribalism, creating a network of like-minded people is a human necessity; few get good connections, few not that good. For this, one does not need Osho.

      Osho tried to create a new configurations of global networking. Whether it enlightened the world or the bulb got fused is a matter of discussion. I am not that sentimental to think fused bulb is not fused because packing box has a photo of a Buddha looking with wonder at Phillips bulb!

      Fact is, once Osho died His people became responsible for His work. To think Osho is coaching Jayesh or Shantam, Arpana or Lokesh, is a fine example of religious self-deception.

  8. Arpana says:

    Interesting post.

    “I see a lot of self-deception going on in sannyasins’ imaginary relationships with Osho.” Regarding this remark:

    Osho on a number of occasions said he was setting his work up so that ‘we’ were not dependent on his physical presence (I’ll research this eventually).

    Outside the ashramites in the 70s in Poona, no one had that much contact with him; and then an even smaller number had really personal ongoing contact with him.

    Then an enormous amount of what goes on with others goes on in the imagination anyway, even those closest to us whom we see regularly, because we internalise people, they take up a place in our imaginations, even if we are not aware of this.

    I would argue that Osho actively set out to make use of the human propensity to internalise others and that 99.9999999% of what went on for us while he was alive was with him whon we had internalised (I obviously can’t prove that. Just a viewpoint).

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Interesting post from your side, Arpana re the topic (yesterday at 6.52) too. Hidden in it, what Tibetan Buddhism is calling ‘Guruyoga’ – a mental, psychological and spiritual pratice to melt with the spirit of the Master.

      Lama Tsomo, US/California (interviewed in Batgap.com last year) sheds Her warning if disciples are either not mature enough to deal with that practice nor have personal (!) guidance by the Master themselves, while practising that, when entering borrowed realms, so to say: quite a big delusionary realm, where the seeker (withoud guidance) can be lost in some megalomaniac fantasies about himself or herself or whatsoever even worst of effects for him or herself, or even more collective surroundings.

      In an outrageous, courageous way (paradoxically too, as long as He was capable to deal with individuals amongst His disciples) Osho, The Mystic, did invite His Lovers and disciples for ‘Guruyoga’ as well as pointing out its delusionary impact.

      Strong teaching! The paradox, I mean.

      I´m reminded of some of the “therapriests”, as Prem Martyn called them (sometimes here in the caravanserai) who went quite astray when their work was not surveyed by the Master re some megalomaniac claiming to ‘do His work’. Now, there happen to be unfortunately some of the ´Satsang-´Givers´ who are taking advantage of the naivete of seekers and their longing to love and to be loved in similiar ways.

      You made up a (maybe THE) core issue, Arpana, re the delusionary aspect of being on our life path while creating it step-by-step (some call it “The Path of Love”).

      It’s a loser’s game re the delusionary aspects we´re facing. ‘Only the Loser Can Win This Game’ was a Darshan Diary in the seventies.

      And I´d like to add that at any time, friendship amongst those who walk and talk their path plays a major role amidst taking the challenges delusion provides.
      .
      We used to call it a Sangha.

      Thanks for your inspiration yesterday morning, Arpana.

      Madhu

      • Arpana says:

        Madhu.

        I think of Sannyas a trial and error life,with, certainly in my case, Osho always having something to say to me that fits where I am at at any given time; along with the mirroring process; and the fact that hes never made me feel I am important in a good or bad way.

        Addendum.

        When I say mirroring, I mean stories such as the following, which I first came across in 1981, and regularly recall anew, and which addresses me anew regularly:

        THE TENTH SAYING
        JESUS SAID: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A MAN TO MOUNT TWO HORSES AND TO STRETCH TWO BOWS; AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A SERVANT TO SERVE TWO MASTERS, OTHERWISE HE WILL HONOR THE ONE AND OFFEND THE OTHER.

        Everybody is already mounted on two horses, everybody is stretching two bows — not only two but many. That’s how anguish is created, that’s why you are constantly in anxiety. Anxiety shows that somehow you are mounted on two horses. How can you be at ease? Impossible, because the two horses are moving in two directions, and you cannot move anywhere.

        With one horse movement is possible, you can reach somewhere. With two horses movement is impossible, they will negate each other and you will not reach anywhere. And this is the anxiety — that you are not reaching anywhere. Deep down this is the anguish: that life is slipping out of your hands, time is becoming less and less, death is coming near and you are not reaching anywhere. It is as if you have become a stagnant pool, just getting dryer and dryer and dying. There is no goal, no fulfillment. But why is it happening? — because you have been trying to do the impossible.

        Try to understand the mind as it functions in you, then you will be able to understand what Jesus means. You want to be as free as a poor man because only a poor man can be free — he has no burden, he has nothing to protect, you cannot rob him. He is unafraid. You cannot snatch anything from him because he has nothing; with nothing, he is at ease; with nothing as his possession, nothing can be stolen from him. Nobody is his enemy because he is not a competitor at all, he is not competing with anybody.

        You want to be as free as a poor man, as a beggar, but you also want to be as secure as a rich man, as safe as an emperor. The rich man is safe, the rich man is secure, he feels more rooted. Outwardly, he has made all the arrangements, he is not vulnerable: he has protections against death, you cannot murder him so easily, he has an armour. And you would like to be free like the beggar and to be secure like an emperor — then you are mounted on two horses and it is impossible to reach anywhere.

        You love a person, but you want the person to behave like a thing, completely in your hands. But you cannot love a thing, because a thing is dead and cannot respond to you. So if the other is really a person he cannot be possessed, he is like mercury: the more you try to keep him in your fist, the more he goes out — because to be a person means to be free. If he is a person, you cannot possess him; if you can possess him, he is no longer a person and you will not be able to love him. Then he is just a dead thing. Who can love a dead thing?
        You are mounted on two horses. You want a person like a thing, which is impossible! A person has to be free and alive, and only then can you love him. But then you feel difficult, you start possessing, and then you start killing him; you are poisoning. If he allows you this poisoning, sooner or later he will be just a thing. So wives become decorative pieces in the houses, husbands become just watchmen — but love disappears. And this is happening in all directions.

        Osho
        ‘The Mustard Seed: My Most Loved Gospel on Jesus’
        Chapter 10: ‘Just Enjoy Yourself’

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          Thanks very much for the quote, Arpana!

          Btw, have you finished reading ‘Beyond Psychology’ – his talks in Uruguay, 1986? You mentioned being busy with it recently, didn´t you?

          And I mention it because all of such has been and IS a ´living thing´- up to this very day…

          Thanks again for the move and the effort to share some of the ´moving´.

          Madhu

        • satchit says:

          @ Arpana 14. Feb. 1.11 pm

          The problem with these quotes is they are only half-truths. Where do you want to reach sitting on one horse?

  9. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    This is only an opinion of a tourist who has visited the ashram of an Indian mystic, when by then his legacy had been dispersed in the great heads of his devotees of the first hour, to be then mediated with the legacy of masters known in the books, and finally be centrifuged* with plenty of sangria:

    Self-deception involves two things:
    1) A little/very dialectical relationship between at least two parts within the man (the reason for the fighting on SN is due to the different levels of intra-psychic dialogue, between those who talk a lot with themselves and those who talk a lot about themselves).
    2) The moment in which reality breaks and presents itself different from how the ‘prevailing part’ had imagined it; this part goes into crisis, not receiving the feedback that supports that identity. It can resist, disappear or return to the shadows, leaving space for a new part that prevails over the others and that is perceived at that moment as more real/true/authentic, the reality having provided a new mirror and the community having provided the frame, from which one can not escape or can not break.

    In the particular community called Sangha, self-deception is the ego, and therefore self-deception is always a phenomenon in retrospect, every time someone recognizes the ego at work.

    If there is not a phenomenon in nature (measurable, if this could be a criterion for deciding what is real) called Enlightenment then the Sangha is all a self-deception game, both when someone declares his/her achievement and when he/she wants to drop the ego.

    *centrifuged:
    https://context.reverso.net/traduzione/italiano-inglese/centrifugato
    http://www.centrifuga.eu/

    • Lokesh says:

      The ego talking about dropping the ego. It’s an old loop, long past its sell-by date.

      • shantam prem says:

        “The ego talking about dropping the ego. It’s an old loop, long past its sell-by date.”

        MOD:
        What’s the point of this, Shantam?

        Shantam:
        Repeating the sentence without changing its original contents is kind of appreciating the original, underlining it, sharing it.

  10. Kavita says:

    Shantam, pn my experience self-deception can happen only to a dishonest self. Otherwise. one knows where one really does/does not stand.

    Example, I have become obese over the past ten years or so, mostly due to inactivity & love for variety in food, which I was enjoying, but during taking care of my mother my body was feeling tired, so in August I started a healthy diet plan on my own, but later thought & felt I needed some outside support/guidance. After my mother’s death I decided to go for it, so now from the 28th of January, 2019, I have enrolled myself in a local Nature-cure centre & Ayurvedic centre for support/guidance for my fat loss programme.

    I have been quite busy & active these days, which I am also enjoying now.

    Shantam, also it was good talking to you on the phone after my mother’s death.

    Somehow my self-realization is even though there may be difference of opinion between individuals, love never dies!

  11. Arpana says:

    Shantam’s biggest self-deception is, of course, that everyone else suffers from self-deception but not him.

    • Lokesh says:

      Maybe what you are saying about Shantam is true, Arpana. Maybe it is not. What I ask myself is why does it bother you so much? Why not accept the way people are, be done with it and move on?

      f you are unable to do that it simply means you are stuck with something. Being stuck with Shantam’s stuckness. Hey, man, haven’t you anything better to focus on?

    • shantam prem says:

      One of Shantam´s biggest self-deceptions can be his opinion that masters are not implanted by the Existence, they too are the product of socio-economic, religious vibes of a country or a continent.

      Shantam thinks of spiritual masters as another kind of entrepreneurs. Few rise high like Amazon boss, few remain stuck in a corner shop.

      Shantam also wishes, one fine day he too will be a small entrepreneur. Illusion of one´s great calling is in many of us. Those who don´t listen to it, they can remain happy as obedient customers of M/s* ABC & Bros., DEF & Sons, Late Mystic & His Doctor Private Limited!

      * M/s meaning:
      I have seen this when the company name includes the names of the owners/partners in the business, for example: M/S Smith, Jones and Brown Publishing Company. In this case, M/S is the abbreviation for Messrs., the plural of Mr. and is a form of salutation.

      • satchit says:

        If Shantam wants to become a small spiritual entrepreneur he has to make a decision:
        Under what flag does he want to sail?
        Under the flag of his master? This will not work.
        He has to sail under his own flag.

        Being an Indian in Germany is not a bad beginning for this enterprise. Ever thought about giving satsang in Europa-Park? Maybe would be an interesting new attraction there.

      • satyadeva says:

        “Shantam also wishes, one fine day he too will be a small entrepreneur. Illusion of one´s great calling is in many of us.”

        Shantam, there are one or two things regarding your personal wishes that need to be clarified.

        The other day you declared you’d like to set up your own “ashram”. Arpana interpreted this as creating a “centre”, a totally different sort of thing.

        Please clarify the precise nature of this ambition of yours.

        Also, could you please say whether you do, in fact, regard yourself as “Osho’s successor”, as Arpana has stated (or rather, accused you of). And if not, what exactly do you envisage as your ‘ideal’ role in the Sannyas movement (should that be possible for you to fulfil)?

        • shantam prem says:

          Satchit and Satyadeva,
          It will be an interesting article on its own. What I feel in this sense I can try to write honestly. Maybe I get some much needed push to turn calling into reality.

          Being the founder of ‘Nameless Community of Global Seekers’ can be just a daydream, still I cherish it.
          Osho can be described as grandfather of this project but surely, not at all it will be his baby.

          • shantam prem says:

            It is the height of blind following to abuse me as if I am carrying the notion to be a successor of Osho. It is a Taliban shit to shoot someone. Arpana is stupid in this sense, he won´t even feel remorse.

            Osho has not left any successor, any medium, any bloody channel. He left a set-up of 21 people to run His place with the best of their ability in a democratic way of discussing and dealing with day-to-day operations and obstacles.

            That is it. I am simply asking for the restoration of that set-up where disciples feel engaged.

          • satyadeva says:

            Ok, Shantam, thanks. So it’s not a mere ‘centre’ you’d like to set up, but something far larger in scope, closer to an independent ‘ashram’ in fact? The purpose being, presumably, to replicate, as far as possible, your experience of the Pune commune – but without the, er, ‘inconvenience’ of an actual living master in charge of it all?

            • shantam prem says:

              A facility for around 30 residents who are not looking for a master but fellow-meditators. I can be called mentor who has invested his own money and wisdom without claiming to be some kind of enlightened.

              With my resources, it is possible only in India, also westerners can live comfortably with 700 euros per month. Living costs in India have become very expensive, still cheaper compared to developed western nations.

              • satyadeva says:

                I don’t necessarily want to discourage you, Shantam, I’d rather say, go for it, see where it takes you, and good luck with it too. But what do you think is the realistic chance of this imagined project actually manifesting? Can you give an honest rating, eg a % chance? And, crucially, are you taking any action to real-ise this personal dream?

                If the chance is low then can you see that this is just a mental trick, a way for you to carry on hoping (hoping against hope) that, one day, you’ll ‘get there’, where you want to be (according to you, where you ‘should be’), where, finally, you can be ‘happy’, just like ‘the good old days’.

                Something to prevent despair from creeping in and taking over, a sort of mental anti-depressant?

                In other words, a sort of self-deception that’s so common it’s probably in everyone’s experience, something like “when I win the lottery…”, or “when I find a winning betting system…”, “when we’re in power…”, “when I meet Mr/Ms.’Right’…”, “when I’m finally free of all my fears and hang-ups…”, or “when I get enlightened….”

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Shantam, what kind of sexual morality will be applied? Will it be possible to go around naked and in case meet other wet genitals in public spaces such as the kitchen or the zennis field?

  12. Lokesh says:

    Why research it, Arpana? You either know it or you do not. Just because Osho said something does not mean it is true. Might have been a device. Or maybe he had a headache. Unless you know a thing existentially I really do not see what use researching will do you, except perhaps to create another mind trip. Perhaps I am missing something. If so, could you explain?

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Feel a need to switch in here at this point, Lokesh.

      After the read of your indeed remarkable and long contribution yesterday, which I enjoyed, I see you appearing here this morning in quick and and mostly demeaning stances re other contributors. A lion´s roar? I don´t sense it like that.

      What others would name ´research´ could have the same meaning as you would (maybe?) call your investigating stances re self-deceiving clichés, which you clearly mentioned in your contribution yesterday.

      You found out that the situation changes if you spend some valuable time (face-to-face and in the body) with someone here from UK/SN, like you did with Shantam. And don´t get me wrong, I enjoyed that too.

      When you are asking, “Am I missing ´something?” I´d respond:
      Yes, sometimes you are missing something: to take your time for re(a)specting strangers beyond your small or even “extended family”, as you put it.

      Years ago, I had the delusion that one day or the other, we (contributors here) would meet in the flesh, so to say. It was a nice dream. As some of us (and me too) are enjoying commun(e)ication.

      Madhu

      • Lokesh says:

        Madhu, what you are perhaps missing is that different people on SN require different responses. I have always been a chameleon, a shape-shifter, equally at home with sophistocated people I meet and having a friendly chat with the sweet man whose job it is to sweep the streets clean in my local village. Please do not ask me to communicate in the same way with everyone, that would be disrespectful – to whom I leave you to guess.

        That the regular contributors here on SN should meet in the flesh – I doubt it. I have met three so far and I enjoyed each meeting in its unique way. Lovely people.

  13. Arpana says:

    “I love the evil man who knows he is evil more than the righteous man who knows he is righteous. Of the evil people who consider themselves righteous, however, the following is said: “They do not even turn away on the threshold of the underworld, for they imagine that they are being led to Hell in order to redeem the souls there.” (‘Tales of the Chassidim’)

    • shantam prem says:

      This is a very good quotation, as if it is written after seeing people closer to Osho who were chosen to run the show, who are still running the show.

      To accept stink is arising from one´s own home is more more difficult to accept than to say it is Christian or islamic or Sikh conditioning!

  14. Lokesh says:

    ‘One of Shantam´s biggest self-deceptions can be his opinion that masters are not implanted by the Existence, they too are the product of socio-economic, religious vibes of a country or a continent.’

    A very sad reflection indeed. It is also utter nonsense.

    • shantam prem says:

      Lokesh, what you call an an “utter nonsense” and “a very sad reflection” is very much based on one wonderful Osho talk in Hindi.

      You can ask any Indian, Osho´s content in Hindi is hundred times more deeper and wise. It is almost like university books in comparison to kindergarten stuff in English.

      It is not racism but a fact, the time of Beatles meeting Mahesh Yogi was a transition phase in western civilization, Indian gurus/western followers was not like planned development of a city but camping place of refugees.

      No harm to look at the whole thing with a bit of objectivity.

      • Kavita says:

        “You can ask any Indian, Osho´s content in Hindi is hundred times more deeper and wise. It is almost like university books in comparison to kindergarten stuff in English.”

        Shantam, in my first 15 years or so of sannyas life, I thought so too, until I really listened to Osho’s ‘Book of Wisdom’ vols. 1 & 2, then realized I was wrong about this notion you mentioned.

        Probably we Indians really listen only to Hindi discourses. Actually, I had discussed this with a few Indian sannyasin friends and after listening to these discourses I mentioned they also thought so.

        Somehow maybe this Osho mystery school created by Existence does work for many of us!

        Shantam, hope you consider me an Indian?!

      • Lokesh says:

        Yeah, Shantam, I understand where you are coming from…maybe Indians deserve or need a hundred times deeper and more wise talks in Hindi. I’m fucked if I know.

        In the early days with Osho, his words were certainly a hook, not so deep or not so wise as Hindi talks, of course, but for us in the kindergarten in seemed to work.

        Then I began to take on board the fact that all his words were just a tactic, device, to go beyond the need for words. Today, I very rarely read anything by Osho. There are other books I am much more interested in, from novels to study.

        So you guys can rejoice in having your deeper and wiser Hindi discourses. Good luck with that.

        MOD:
        Lokesh, “from novels to study” – maybe missing something?

        • shantam prem says:

          Lokesh, if someone offers me any Osho book, I will look for Bible or even Koran.

          My point is not about books but the fact Osho has explained in a certain talk why Buddha and Gandhi are possible only in India and why not in Europe or America.

          In the same spirit I can say, Steve Jobs or Elon Musk are not possible in India.

          People who grow mango orchids also have to buy apples. What is wrong in it? It does not mean at all some Indian Shantam has more chance to become awakened than Scottish Lokesh.

          Still, in the business of spirituality no westerner can beat junior Rajneesh, the most successful Indian mini-guru among the white race.

          • Lokesh says:

            Shantam, I do not agree with your idea that the really enlightened guys all came out of India. Do your homework, man, ’cause you are talking bullshit.

        • Lokesh says:

          MOD, I’m not into porn.

          MOD:
          Not sure what you’re amswering, Lokesh!

  15. Kavita says:

    “One of Shantam´s biggest self-deceptions can be his opinion that masters are not implanted by the Existence, they too are the product of socio-economic, religious vibes of a country or a continent.”

    Shantam, sometimes I do get your sarcasm!

  16. Levina says:

    We are all deceiving each other:
    I pretend I cannot stand you, or I pretend I cannot stand myself. In the first case I project a thought believed on somebody else, and in the second case I project it on myself. It’s easier and feels safer to project it on others, but if there is only me, then it’s like a ball I throw to an object and it bounces back again to the subject.

    If I believe the first thought that I am separate from existence, and therefore feel rejected, a cast-out, not loved etc. I deceive myself. If I am honest about the deception and see it as a given or as a door, then the deception might evaporate.

    If I, however, have a judgement about that, or see it as a problem, then that’s a double deception. If I then start projecting the judgement on “others”, believing the thought “it’s their fault” in numerous ways, then I am triple-deceived.

    Not knowing who you really are is from my own experience very painful. To mask that pain in 1001 ways we have plentiful examples of, living in today’s world. I myself am not exempt from it.

    But if the deception is accepted for what it is, then it becomes very humorous: God pretending to be human being in all its deceptive diversions.

    • satchit says:

      As I see it, self-deception is much related to comparing.

      People think being a sannyasin is better than being a non-sannyasin. Others think moving on is better than staying a sannyasin. People think being rich is better than being poor. Poor ones think they are only humble and blessed.

      Nobody is interested in facticity.

      • Arpana says:

        @Satchit.

        No understanding without language!!
        No understanding because of language!

        Without language, Ignorance!
        Because of language, Confusion!

      • Lokesh says:

        Nobody is interested in facticity.
        That is because nobody knows what facticity is.

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          A new concept for me too, Lokesh.
          Satchit, could you explain how to apply it to what we are discussing?

          • Arpana says:

            @VF.
            The first and only time I’d heard the word, until yesterday, was about twenty-five years ago, used by an art tutor, at art school, referring to the quality of the paint on the canvas: how the paint was present physically, moulded, applied, rather than what the paint was part of representing.

          • satchit says:

            @ Veet

            It’s not a concept. It’s the result of non-attachment. Don’t be lazy – make your own thoughts!

      • shantam prem says:

        I think Osho was not aware about the word ‘facticity’, as I understand he would have used it more than one time.

        Checked at google. It can be added to spiritual lingo! It is a word from German philosophy.

        To hear “philosophy”, the automatic memory of many Christian-minded sannyasins will scream that Osho has said ‘this, this, this’ about philosophy. They all will forget he has done M.A in Philosophy not M.Sc. in Physics!

    • frank says:

      Levina,
      It reminds me of a story I heard about a very famous bigshot businessman who was passing through a major airport. He pushed to the front of the queue and demanded to be let through. The clerk behind the counter said she couldn`t do that. The guy got angry and puffed up, saying: “Do you have any idea who I am?”
      The clerk, quick as a flash, made an announcement over the tannoy:
      “Emergency call for a doctor at gate 7, there`s a guy here who has got no idea who he is!”

  17. Kavita says:

    “My point is not about books but the fact Osho has explained in a certain talk why Buddha and Gandhi are possible only in India and why not in Europe or America.

    In the same spirit I can say, Steve Jobs or Elon Musk are not possible in India.”

    So what is the problem with this, why expect otherwise? Osho’s Steve Jobs (Amrito) is still in the ‘being’, so wait, darling, let him take his own pace to ‘non-being’!

  18. Arpana says:

    I came across this (certainly to me) interesting passage in a book I am reading. Self explanatory, I think:

    “At the Jung Institute, too, we are in a way much nastier and more difficult to get along with, than, say, a society for breeding dogs or hares, or a club for fishermen. There the social contact is in general on a much more conventional level, and it appears to be more civilised; but the truth is simply that at the Institute and the Psychological Club we tend not to cover up what is going on underneath. In most other societies or groups the inferior function is covered and plays havoc under the table; underneath there are all these difficulties, but they are never brought up to the surface and discussed openly. The assimilation of the shadow of the inferior function has the effect that people become socially more difficult and less conventional and this creates friction, but on the other hand it also creates a greater liveliness, it is never boring, there is always a storm in the teacup, and the group is very much alive instead of having just a kind of dull, polite surface.”

    ‘Jung’s Typology’, Marie~Louise Von Franz

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Is saying always better than containing words? Maybe, Arpana.

      It reminds me when I was young and I betrayed my girlfriend; if she asked me I did not deny, because I pretended to be honest.

      Today, if I had a girl who goes fucking around, if she tried to save appearances I would find this a concern for me.

      Happy Valentine’s Day.

  19. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    @ Frank ( 14 February, 2019 at 9:00 pm )

    Hi Frank,
    that´s what can be called a St. Valentine´s call up from your side ; finally (!) ( late as late can be ) and sure enough:
    You did it YOUR way – and only after haveing had support by two of your favorite buddhies or some ´eau de vie´……

    I´m grateful to the pain in my body what got me up again from the bed , turned on the computer , to enjoy that scribbeling and won´t even look into the ´urban dictionary for this or that.

    There´s still `Luft nach oben´( german idiom* what I´m unable to translate to your mothertongue re your friendship to women ( at least probably same age or older than you ).

    Madhu
    * idiom meaning ? …kind of: ” there are still some possibilities to grow…. without and beyond – prejudices , fired up like with a gun “.
    Same goes to other buddhies here… or peeping ´Toms”

  20. shantam prem says:

    Do enlightenment and beyond enlightenment people also get a state of self-deception and self-delusion, or only followers have this privilege?

    I wonder when universities will undertake research projects of such nature?

    • satyadeva says:

      What do you understand by “enlightenment or beyond enlightenment”, Shantam?

      • shantam prem says:

        Enlightenment and Beyond Enlightenment have been in circulation like cryptocurrency. They don´t impress or inspire me.

        • satyadeva says:

          That’s not an answer to my question, Shantam, which is:
          What do you understand by “enlightenment or beyond enlightenment”?

          In other words, in what context are you assessing a capacity for self-deception or self-delusion?

          • shantam prem says:

            Discussion about elusive terms end nowhere.

            When Osho talks about enlightenment and beyond, it feels reliable. When copycats talk it feels new conditioning therefore delusory by nature and design.

            • satyadeva says:

              So what’s the problem with taking Osho’s “reliable” version, Shantam? According to that, what is your understanding?

              If you can’t (or won’t) provide an answer then your question is pointless and any proposed research is impossible.

              • shantam prem says:

                I have no answer but if I get the temptation of being enlightened myself, surely I will be open for brain mapping and other possible neuropsychological tests.

                As a student of astrology, I can say this whole spiritual kick can be a certain combination of Sun, Jupiter, Neptune.

                Liz Greene has written a wonderful treatise over this, titled, ‘Neptune: The Quest for The Sublime’.

                • shantam prem says:

                  ‘Astrological Neptune: The Quest for Redemption’.

                  MOD:
                  Is this Liz Greene’s book you referred to just before, Shantam?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shantam, I had an excellent private 90 mins. session (recorded on tape as well) with Liz Greene in London, many years ago. Her depth of perception in studying my birth chart was most impressive and convinced me of the value of ‘psychological astrology’ practised by an experienced, well-qualified person, as, with uncanny accuracy, she described my parents and the family situation, together with most useful, surprising insights into each person and the particular dynamics that had affected me, plus revelations as to the hows and whys of my make-up, current and future influences, and one or two practical suggestions re how I might best deal with my particular difficulties/challenges.

                  However, it seems to me that your claim that “this whole spiritual kick” (whatever that means) boils down to “a certain combination of Sun, Jupiter, Neptune” is pure, self-deceiving nonsense, the old deception of trying to explain ‘everything’ by explaining nothing! (While, of course, implicitly raising, in your eyes, your own self-important significance as an astrologer who ‘knows such things’).

                  I recall that Barry Long earned his living for a few years writing a syndicated high-circulation magazine column on astrology and said it was the best, most comprehensive map of the human psyche we have (if used properly) – but was nevertheless not ‘the Truth’ (capital ‘T’) as it knew next to nothing about ‘enlightenment’, the journey to the end of the psyche and beyond (my paraphrase)…

                  I have the impression that you’re feeling a sense of ‘failure’, disillusionment, which pervades many of your contributions here, and that consequently you’re looking for anything to downplay, disown, even to sort of ‘degrade’ what you might have spent many of your earlier years (uselessly) dreaming about, imagining, like the UK National Lottery ads say (or said) that “it could be you!”

                  And btw, if you’re feeling so ‘lost’, not to mention not having a clue about the final purpose of it all, how come you imagine (that fateful word again) that you’re a fit person to inspire and manage a commune of 30 ‘seekers’? Wouldn’t that be ‘the blind leading the blind’, ie more self-deception and deception? (Although I’d still support you going for that instead of hanging around complaining most of the time).

                • satyadeva says:

                  Also, re “I have no answer but if I get the temptation of being enlightened myself…” – what a strange thing to say, “temptation”?! Perhaps you meant something else?

                  As BL once said to me when I asked him, quite (but not overwhelmingly) earnestly, whether I should do an enlightenment intensive during one holiday period, back in the 80s:
                  “Well, I’ll tell you one thing: you’re not going to get enlightened doing that. Why don’t you go to Spain or somewhere with plenty of sun, find a beach, lie on it, find a girl, relax and enjoy yourself?!”

                  Once I got over the (admittedly mild) shock of hearing I wasn’t a candidate for ‘enlightenment’, I found that piece of advice liberating and thought, “Now that’s what I call a common sense, no bullshine, Aussie master! Vamonos!”*

                  *Spanish for “Let’s go!”

                • frank says:

                  Hi SD,
                  “Find somewhere with plenty of sun, find a beach, lie on it, find a girl, relax and enjoy yourself?!”
                  Did BL say that?
                  He`s gone up in my estimation!
                  Mind you, I could probably have given that advice for free, too!

                  So, did you fly to Benidorm the next day and go on the pull?

                • frank says:

                  Btw, SD,
                  Reading newspaper astrology columns and flicking Shantam`s ears at the back of the class is great fun, I know, but where is your essay for Mr Arpana on ‘Negative Capability’?
                  You don`t seem to have handed it in.

                • Arpana says:

                  Don’t pay attention to Frank, SD. He’s such a stirrer. If you don’t want to hand in your essay, then don’t. I won’t think any less of you.

                • Arpana says:

                  Thanks, Anubodh. Fantastic. Did you see Half-Life-Sista fill up? They are all so into the song.

                • frank says:

                  Far out the Floyd!
                  They be will rockin` the people long after us lot have gone up to the great gig in the sky!

              • Lokesh says:

                SD, Shantam will not supply an answer in relation to what enlightenment is, because he has not a clue about it, even to the extent that he does not understand what enlightenment is not. His understanding is based in book reading and what he has heard. He is stuck with the extremely limited idea that the exalted state is something to be got, something to be had.

                Really, this is kid’s stuff. Being a disciple of Osho, Shantam should at least know by now that enlightenment is not a shiny chestnut to be kept in a toy box, like a cherished possession.

                That’s the thing with many sannyasins, they think that Osho was a reliable source of information; gathering that information they think they know it without actually owning it.

                I find writing about enlightenment tedious. I’ve begun so I might as well sum it up.
                Enlightenment has at its central core ego death. Death of the ego is not something that normally happens in day-to-day life. It has to be brought on. There are various paths to this process. If you do not know what I am talking about then what to say of knowing anything about enlightenment except book knowledge and bullshit?

                • shantam prem says:

                  If you know not how to make fun of your own wisdom, your enlightenment is the greed of a high school drop-out who dreams to have doctor title.

                  Lokesh and SD can ponder upon this, there seems to be much generation gap between us, Sirs!

                • shantam prem says:

                  Basically, Lokesh and Satyadeva should go for a joint search to look for a living enlightened being and bring that person’s hair to some lab. for further research.

                • Arpana says:

                  So you’re claiming to be enlightened, Lokesh; and if you are not enlightened this last paragraph is as much bookish crap as anything Shantam says, or any of the other sannyasins you so routinely denigrate for that matter.

                  P.S:
                  Before you start mouthing off at me, I am only using the word as a response to your use of the word.

                • anand yogi says:

                  Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
                  It is certainly time for you to retire to Himalayas with select few in order to try to salvage something from the wreckage of Osho`s vision!

                  The buffoonery and baboonery of the male species of the ex-sannyasin whiteman has fallen so low that now they have gurus like Barry Long (who cunningly chose a name that rhymes with Hari Om in order to steal customers from brownskin CEOs) prescribing all-inclusive holidays at the Solana in Benidorm as a path to enlightenment!

                  Others are sitting for days on end watching test matches with LBW Papaji and his team in order to simply find out that nothing ever happens!

                  You must understand, as an astrologer yourself, that “the whole spiritual kick” needs to be in Uranus and not in Sun, Jupiter and Neptune!

                  As you rightly say, bhai, surely your brain will be mapped and other possible neuropsychological tests, so do not worry, bhai, when you leave your body we will sell brain for good price on account of it almost never having been used!

                  Yahoo!
                  Hari Om!

                • Lokesh says:

                  Arpana says, “So you’re claiming to be enlightened, Lokesh?”

                  Just the sort of reactive bullshit that Arpana is so good at. I would not be so stupid as to claim to be enlightened. How twee would that be? I find the whole enlightenment thing uninteresting.

                • Arpana says:

                  Grow up and take some responsibility for the rubbish you come out with, Lokesh.

                  Talk about double standards.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Arpana, if you are an example of what being grown up represents, I wish to remain down in the playground with the kids.

                  You need to loosen up, man. You are as stiff as a board in all the wrong places.

                • frank says:

                  Hey, cool it, guys, and kick back to some good sounds…
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbhYqV17CoQ

                • swami anand anubodh says:

                  Here is a video that captures an Indian actually experiencing ‘Enlightenment’…

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzWnKC8Ypmk

                • Lokesh says:

                  Something for Arpana.

                • Arpana says:

                  @Lokesh. 10.49.
                  Old people projecting. Hilarious.

                • shantam prem says:

                  Arpana kind of people come out from their reactive mind only if they find other enlightened – real or imaginary plays no role; dad must be super-Casanova.

                  Those who lick sugar daddies find others below taste-level level.

                • Arpana says:

                  Shantam kind of people come out from their reactive mind only if they find other enlightened – real or imaginary plays no role; dad must be super-Casanova.

                  Those who lick sugar daddies find others below taste-level level.

                • Arpana says:

                  @ anubodh.16 February, 2019 at 10:15 pm.
                  Cracking video.

                  Album still sells about 5000 copies a month, apparently.

                • swami anand anubodh says:

                  SD, Arps,

                  I think the reason Floyd are selling well today may have something to do with YouTube ‘reaction’ vids, it seems there is a generation discovering 70s music for the 1st time.

                  Music – in hindsight – we probably took for granted.

                  For these first-timers hearing Pink Floyd is almost like a darshan…

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQtng2hZ0Gg

                • satyadeva says:

                  I think you’re right, Anubodh, we tended to take it for granted, it was so much part of the times.

  21. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    @ Frank (16 February, 2019 at 5:05 pm)

    Both of it, Frank, I´d suggest re your first paragraph´s questions, pondering about Erikson.

    And at the base of it, in old as unfortunately also ´new´ traditions (trade-markets), using the mind, sophisticated as one dares to say nowadays, like an electro-physiological machine (bot).

    So rare, isn´t it, that a Human Being happens to step out of such frame, isn´t it? We either call him a Mystic then – or he´s murdered in the one or the other way.

    Madhu

    • frank says:

      Hi Madhu,
      You say: “So rare, isn´t it, that a Human Being happens to step out of such frame, isn´t it?”

      You must have a least a few toes outside that frame even to be asking the question, no?

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      You didn´t get it, it seems, MODs, that in my post (8:14am) I avoided, the best I could, naming a fixed sexual identity. As conciousness – the level I tried to name it – has NO gender.

      If such would be realised, such a lot of puffing and fighting here as elsewhere would be avoided too; better said, would become absolutely irrelevant.

      Sincerely,

      Madhu

      MOD:
      Madhu, we don’t see how what you say here relates to your earlier post. Are you referring to changing “electropsysiolofical” (in your original post) which isn’t a recognisable word: do you mean ‘electro-physical’, or ‘electro-philosophical’, perhaps?) and not “electro-physiological”?

      Please clarify!

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Well, MODs, in my original posting, I stated (quite clumsily) “it” (the Mystic(al) energy) instead of ‘him’ or ´he´ – and understandable that “it” (via moderation) was given a kind of personal impact, but in a way, fatal

        Thanks for a compassionate read of my stutterings…

        Sometimes, you know, poets get the drift…by chance….

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          @ MODs
          PS:
          You asked for clarification in terms of the scientific bias, about the bio-neurological, bio-physiological etc. (measurables).

          Well, for that you probably have to ask a scientist, to get it correct. I´m not a scientist that way. Not even a kinesiologist* who seemingly are situated somehow in the so-called behaviourist section.

          * I had own experience as a client, in the unfortunate (not successful) trials, to cope with my post-traumatic stress disorders times and times ago….

          MOD:
          No, Madhu, we only wondered which word was best for what you meant.

          Madhu:
          NOT personal, YET a personal expression – a paradox in the paradox…What to say?

          And thank you for responding as we also share amongst so much else, helplessness, and also kind of longing to relate- there´s Beauty in That.

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          Could you be so kind, Arpana, as to tell me what you intentioned when showing me (addressing o me) that instagramm madness on the net?

          I mean, what has such to do with you and me (us) in the SN/UK Caravanserai Chat re the topic issue here?

          Madhu

  22. In Italy they are trying, in vain, to expel the authors of astrological self-deception from television:

    “Stop the horoscopes and give more space to scientific divulgation.” This is, in extreme synthesis, the appeal of the Italian amateur lovers of astronomy, the UAI, who have published an open letter to “limit the unstoppable diffusion of astrology and other pseudo-sciences.”

    To overflow the drop from the vase of lovers of stars, comets and planets, was the orgy of forecasts for 2004 that at the end of the year invaded newspapers and television programmes. “Even more serious – the letter reads – the hammering of forecasts this year has even landed on the news and in the radio newspapers. It is aberrant to create confusion in the audience, mixing news and information of an objective nature with arguments that have no value from the point of view of truth and verifiability.”

    However, the UAI does not stop there. “We consider it grossly unethical to propose to the public a form of exhibition that explicitly rewards the spread of falsehood,” he thunders. The only merit of the astrologers is “to be good story-tellers and to have a seductive approach to the public, without having to answer for what they say. No major event of 2003 was predicted in the television broadcasts of a year ago, and yet all the known faces of the esoteric sciences have been brought back to the public every year.”

    Here are the remedies: First, no horoscopes in information spaces. Secondly, to emphasize explicitly that astrology offers no certainties nor scientific foundations.

    “A meritorious initiative that should be followed and publicised as much as possible”, comments Piergiorgio Odifreddi, professor of mathematical logic at the University of Turin. Odifreddi has no doubts: astrology is not a science. And it is not for five good reasons.

    “First – says the mathematician – constellations are only images built by man, but they do not really exist: the stars that compose them are very distant from each other.

    Secondly, the constellations are so many. The classic ones are about sixty. Western astrology considers only twelve, while the Chinese examines the polar ones. The mathematician does not stop there.

    Astrologers should explain why they use only twelve constellations, while those on the ecliptic (the imaginary plane that passes through the Sun) are thirteen. The Ophiuchus or Serpentary is useless?”

    And yet he points out that from the astronomical point of view it makes no sense to think that in the course of a year the Sun remains in the constellations for a defined period of time. Sometimes it is more in a constellation and sometimes less in another.

    Finally – he concludes – there is the problem of the precession of the equinoxes: every two thousand years the Zodiac moves by a sign.The astrologers take it into account?”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piergiorgio_Odifreddi

    http://astrocultura.uai.it/astrologianograzie/letteraaperta/paginemessaggero.htm

    • frank says:

      Veet,
      Yes, Astrology is largely nonsense. Character analysis astrology can be a fun game, for sure. Predictive astrology is a scam but mostly simply for idiots who, for them to think it `works`, must have either the recall of a mentally sub-normal dinosaur with learning difficulties or the powers of self-deception of Walter Mitty on Ketamine…or both.

      I say that as someone who actually studied it for a while many moons ago and read people`s charts for a while.

      Indeed, I once prepared a chart for a guy I knew and gave him an in-depth reading of it. He was well pleased and said it was bang on. A little time later, he discovered that he had actually got his time of birth completely wrong,messing all the conjunctions and whatnot!

      As a way of creating an unusual type of conversation between people it can have some value but all in all, the criticisms of the scientists. inaccuracy relating to astronomical knowledge, precession of the equinoxes, etc. are completely valid. And it is up to astrologers to explain this clearly, which they never do, or can.

      It would be better to read tea leaves, throw dice or do Tarot etc. because with those you can just say this is a spiritual game I made up, it’s magic, art or whatever, not science. Like that, you can enjoy yourself without the scientists weighing in `cos you`re on their turf!

      • satyadeva says:

        Yes, Frank, I agree that, as commonly understood and presented, eg ‘fortune-telling’ etc., “astrology is largely nonsense.” However, from personal experience, notably the Liz Greene reading I mentioned a few days ago, but also instances where I’ve been advised of certain transits eg ‘Saturn Return’ (about 2 and 1/2 years centering around ages 29 and 58) and ‘Saturn in the birth sign’, I’ve found ‘Psychological Astrology’ an invaluable tool for negotiating very tricky periods of my life, providing a deeper understanding of what might otherwise have been scary, even perhaps overwhelming, and therefore a certain degree of power in the situations, plus a conviction that eventually the pressure would reduce and evaporate, which it did – right on time, every time.

        So, while it would be foolish to term it an ‘exact science’ my sense is that there’s more than enough in it of great value that deserves recognition and respect rather than the blanket rejection of scientists and others who place such faith in the ruling belief of the age, intellectual materialism.

        I’m all for scientific rigour, but how many of these scientific critics, for instance, have ever bothered to seek out a recognised expert in astrology for an in-depth personal reading? Very few, if any, I imagine.

        P.S:
        Don’t shoot me, I’m just the messenger here…
        An interesting perspective I’ve come across (no doubt pure anathema to the strictly orthodox scientific mind, and others only too willing to jeer at anything that seems to challenge their ideas of ‘common sense’) is that, ultimately, it’s the perception of the human brain that has created what appears as the ‘universe’ outside it/us, which is an exact mirror-image of the entire human psyche. As without, so within…

        Through the ages, we’ve inutuitively recognised this extraordinary connection, and with the wonders of astro-physics revealing more of what appears ‘out there’, perhaps it’s time for astrology to ‘upgrade’ itself a bit, by including the new, particularly as, apparently, significant ‘external’ discoveries are inevitably and often simultaneously matched by parallel openings of perspectives and understandings within us human beings.

        All in all, I’m reminded of Hamlet’s famous words to his more stable, conventionally-minded pal, Horatio:
        “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

        And maybe ‘enlightenment’ is ‘simply’ (!) realising what’s behind it all, what’s holding it all together? Aka ‘No-thing’!

        • frank says:

          Hi SD,
          Astrologers use a map of the universe which is not a map of the universe according to science. That is the problem.

          Astrologers need to accept this fully and say: We play with it and interact with this imaginary map and amazingly – this kind of game works! It works to create unusual subjective inner experiences that we find to be valuable.

          Actually, this is the truth of the matter in astrology right now despite any claims to ‘scientificness’. Astrologers should admit this. It`s not a science at all. It is imagination. A game of imagination, artistic imagination of a specific kind. This kind of game is maybe what scientific materialists need as much as everyone else. Not pseudo-science, but a spiritual game.

          Astrologers won`t do this. They still want the authorisation that it is conferred by the literality of the map. That`s actually materialism in a different guise.

          • shantam prem says:

            Sometimes I wonder, “Is Frank one of Osho´s doctors?”
            These shadowy people are too wise in their own self-assessment.

          • satyadeva says:

            As you seem to inply here, Frank, ‘real’, in-depth psychological astrology works, even if ‘the map’ doesn’t exactly correspond to the external reality science has discovered. In fact it’s worked very well indeed for many people, myself included.

            However, as I said, it might be that astrology will have to expand its domain to include at least some of the new findings, as it did when Pluto appeared to us, in February, 1930 (89th anniversary tomorrow, special celebration at my place, bring your telescope and date and time of birth!).*

            That planet is often linked to personal and collective issues of ‘death or transformation’ (it certainly felt that way to me during its long transit through my birth sign), which does seem synchronistic with the ongoing plight of the human race these last nine decades. Interesting, eh, Horatio…?

            * And indeed, Chiron, discovered in 1977.
            https://youtu.be/w_e3cOWS_eI

            • shantam prem says:

              There is enough stuff written on astrological Pluto. Jeff Green has amazing books.

              Because people working in various fields don´t claim to have activated E-point in their crown chakra, for the neo-religious-minded people they are just mortal beings bound by the life/death wheel like everyone else. One wonders will these people post-demise get an airlift taxi in Air India?

            • SD, you are really lucky that Shantam can not apply to you the formal logical rigour that you apply to his aporia*, having both of you the same astrological destiny.

              Signed,

              Born on 10 July, then a Capricorn

              *aporia: an irresolvable internal contradiction or logical disjunction in a text, argument, or theory.
              Eg: “the celebrated aporia whereby a Cretan declares all Cretans to be liars.”

              • satyadeva says:

                Veet, perhaps you need to remember that “100% formal logical rigour” isn’t necessarily appropriate in all cases. Reflecting a little, for instance, on life, love and laughter, intuition, poetry and meditation, you might just begin to get the idea….

                • In fact, SD, 99% of that logical rigour would be wasted with Shantam, he loves provocation.

                  But lowering your seeker standards about the maps of existence is good for you, the paradox is that it happens by commenting on a post about ‘self-deception’.

                  The passion in defending your personal agenda is an Italian quality that I did not suspect you could have, but at the same time you are still a polite and pragmatic Englishman who knows how to go straight to the goal…a good reason not to travel in your own train car.

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivSMNbaXRSE

                • satyadeva says:

                  Thank you, Veet, for telling me who I am, the anxiety of not knowing was beginning to really get to me.

                  Thanks, too, for keeping out of my way – your compassion knows no bounds, obviously.

                • shantam prem says:

                  This is one nice one, Satya.
                  Reflections are shadows of invisible software programming.

                • anand yogi says:

                  Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
                  It is certainly a proud day for Swami Bhorat to witness the moment when the rational baboon SD finally loses his ’100% formal logical rigour’ and collapses on the marble, banging his head at your feet in obeisance to the ultimate truth of the ancient Vedic science of sunsigns!

                  The absurd and arrogant scientists of the West have managed to put a man on the moon and are now heading for Mars, but in ancient Bhorat the sages and Vedic scientists had already discovered that with a few well-placed banana-skins it was possible to land on Uranus!

                  There can be little doubt, bhai, that just by having meditated in the proximity of one such as you for these long years on SN, by process of osmosis, this particularly logical baboon has been influenced by the flow of wisdom, known as trickledown, that has quite clearly come directly from uranus!

                  SD`s famous mind has finally collapsed and has synchronistically developed a ‘parallel opening of perspectives and understanding’ to you and he is thus beginning to spout illogical nonsense at a rate normally reserved for VIPs born on our hallowed and browned turf!

                  It is certainly a great day in the history of consciousness!

                  Swami Bhorat has been looking in your chart and at the akashic records and he tells me that in next life you will be corner-shop cult leader with 30 or so disciples and Satya Deva will reincarnate to be your chief disciple!

                  Your ejaculations have not been in vain!

                  Yahoo!
                  Hari Om!

                • Arpana says:

                  SD,
                  Have you ever got into Tarot? Because it sounds to me as though you use astrology in a similar way to how I have used Tarot, as a ‘mirror’, that informed astrologers provide you with an ‘image’, a verbal image (as Osho still regularly does me) that reflects you back to you.

                • satyadeva says:

                  No, Arps, not really, apart from a handful of readings over the decades.

                • frank says:

                  That`s one of the points I was trying to make.

                  Tarot has no basis in science. Nor does Kabbalah, for example. They are psychological systems/games. The players, myself included, don`t worry about scientific evidence of any sort, just subjective sense is enough. Like with art.

                  Astrology is the same type of thing. It works because it is a game and an art, albeit a psychological or even spiritual one. It doesn`t work because, for example, Pluto really does exude some influence on your life which is, as Anubodh has pointed out, unverifiable therefore a matter of faith. You believe in it or you don`t believe in it, like God and Allah and all the rest. It’s like old-time religion, essentially: If you believe, you scoff at the idea of it being provable by anything other than by experience.

                  Yet, the trouble is that astrologers and adherents want to have their cake and eat it by saying that those correspondences do, indeed, objectively exist. Of course they can offer no proof.

                  I reiterate: if you think closely you will see that this is actually materialism, because they wish to reify their subjective experience. An understandable effort to allay existential anxiety, for sure. But based on a false premise.

                  I hope that makes sense.

              • Arpana says:

                @SD. 18 February, 2019 at 5:44 pm.

                Oh, right. I misread you as saying it was much more important than that!!

  23. shantam prem says:

    Rajneeshpuram:
    Was it vision or self-deception?
    Osho Commune International:
    Was it vision or a delusion?
    Osho International Meditation Resort:
    Is it pragmatism or a mockery?

  24. swami anand anubodh says:

    SD,
    Even if a sceptical scientist’s astrological reading appeared to be accurate – that would not change anything. The goal of science is to understand how the universe works.

    That scientist would then want to know:
    How Pluto, which is 27 million times fainter than Venus, 4.67 billion miles away and smaller than the Moon, could possibly affect life on Earth? And what was ‘death or transformation’ ascribed to before February 18th, 1930?

    Astrologers are unable to answer these deeper questions. You just have to believe without understanding – and that is not science.

    The scientific mind would conclude that the answers must lie closer to home.

    A stage hypnotist can be very impressive, within a few minutes the subjects are crawling around the floor clucking like chickens. But, remember the show is started by asking for volunteers from the audience. So straightaway a filter has been applied ensuring those walking towards the stage are suggestible.

    I think it is far more likely that there is a similar, subtle, psychological bias at play in Astrology, rather than celestial bodies having any influence.

    Perhaps not very complimentary to believers in Astrology, but if you wish scientific recognition then accepting potentially unpalatable facts comes with the territory.

    Arps,

    Yes, Half-Life-Sista’s reaction in the video reminded me of how people used to react when meeting Osho for the first time.

    • shantam prem says:

      Anubodh,
      What is the proof of Enlightenment?
      Is there some scientific evidence that certain kind of people are not born again?

      • satchit says:

        There is no proof, Shantam.
        Maybe ‘enlightenment’ is only a device.
        If it helps to attract disciples, fine.

        • Arpana says:

          I’ve thought that, Satchit, but I’ve also had personal experiences which have given me a sense there is something to the concept.

          • satchit says:

            @ Arpana 11:12 am

            Yes, I have also had “personal experiences”. But I would not trust so much in this. Mind is capable of creating all kind of ‘personal experiences’ (see hypnosis).

            I think ‘enlightenment’ is necessary for the Master-disciple game.

            The disciples want to have what the Master already has.

            But it is a device, a lie, to seduce kids to come out of the burning house.

            • Arpana says:

              I had an experience that lasted three days, Satchit, and was more about ‘freedom from’ than anything else. I also think in pictures, so I’m fairly certain that wasn’t imagination.

          • swami anand anubodh says:

            Arpana,
            I have learned to treat “personal experiences” with extreme caution as (for me) they originate from a subconscious ego which wants you to keep ‘chasing the carrot’.

            As a result of your experience you now seem persuaded to keep chasing the carrot.

            • Arpana says:

              Actually, Anobodh, my only thought about what you call “chasing the carrot” these days is an awareness occasionally that I don’t anymore; that I am ease with my place in the world. Enjoying love, life, laughter and being a stroppy, contrarian git etc.

              • Arpana says:

                Actually, Anobodh, my only thought about what you call “chasing the carrot” these days, is an awareness occasionally, that I don’t anymore; that I am ease with my place in the world. Enjoying ”love, life, laughter”, and being a stroppy, contrarian git etc.

      • swami anand anubodh says:

        Shantam Prem,

        We live in a world where people believe what they want to believe, any ‘proof’ to the contrary will most likely be ignored or discounted.

        No, science does not have any evidence for something that does not exist.

        Here is a recent video upload of Osho stating that there is ‘no life after death’…

        https://youtu.be/_u6WDi5qeuU?t=336

        • satyadeva says:

          Great video, Anubodh, thanks. I’ve sent it to an old friend (going back to school days) with whom I’ve always avoided mentioning my ‘spiritual side’. Hoping for a ‘breakthrough’…

          But Science is surely out of its depth in terms of investigating, verifying or denying what one might term ‘psycho-spiritual states’ or processes. ‘Enlightenment’ may or may not “exist” but ‘realisations’ at ever-deeper levels have happened within very many people for thousands of years, according to those who’ve experienced such ‘awakenings’ from relative ignorance.

          Even on a much more mundane level, how can science prove or disprove the experience of ‘love’? Let alone its ‘higher’ forms, aka ‘impersonal love’, where masters are supposed to be coming from?

          Moreover, isn’t it the case that no one can possibly ‘know’ exactly what another is experiencing, a simple illustration of our essential aloneness, which we attempt to cover up or even deny in so many ways?

          • swami anand anubodh says:

            SD,

            You begin your post by suggesting science is out of its depth when investigating, verifying ‘psycho-spiritual states’ and finish by stating: “isn’t it the case that no one can possibly ‘know’ exactly what another is experiencing”.

            You seem to be denigrating science for not doing something you suspect is impossible (a bit like getting rid of Arsene Wenger for not bringing home a Champions League trophy).

            I am a great fan of physicist Shaun Carroll. Recently on the Q & A section of his blog appeared an unexpected question. Worth a look, as it gives an insight into how scientists themselves have ‘issues’ to deal with – and are NOT beyond us normal folk.

            The question is the 3rd down: January 12, 2019 at 1:35 pm
            His reply is near the bottom: January 12, 2019 at 3:52 pm

            (Best ignore the nerdy stuff in between).

            http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2019/01/12/true-facts-about-cosmology-or-misconceptions-skewered/#comments

            P.S:
            While you are on his blog, scroll to the top and carefully consider the 19 questions scientists are dealing with at the moment, and then decide who is out of their depth.

            • satyadeva says:

              Anubodh, it’s not a question of “denigrating science”, rather a matter of recognising its limitations in terms of verifying our subjective experience. (the analogy of Wenger failing to win the Champions League is spurious, surely – but I suspect that’s a sophisticated joke for the serious football fan?!).

              But of course it does seem that science is venturing quite far towards the spiritual realm, albeit through external observation and theoretical physics. One day, almost inevitably, science will no doubt discover – or stumble upon – what’s beyond time and space, which will mark the synthesis of science and spirituality, and hence the real beginning of a ‘new age’ for human beings. A few (or many?) scientists have probably intuited as much already.

              And what’s beyond time and space? Consciousness.

              Up to now though, it seems that no one has been able to perceive or even confidently posit anything before the so-called ‘Big Bang’, before Time, as we understand it, ie for science the ‘Timeless’ is not recognized and therefore does not ‘exist’ (which it doesn’t anyway, of course, being beyond sense perception – just Being Itself!). Mystics appear to know otherwise, in their own internal experience, born out of profound self-exploration.

              Again, please don’t interpret this as ‘denigrating’ science. Because one day no doubt, what science will come up with will blow people’s minds.

              N.B:
              The above is the best brief account I can make of what I’ve concluded from hearing about what the cutting edge of theoretical science is up to and the insights of spiritual masters. Nothing is my own personal experience (believe it or not!) except the ‘ring of truth’ I’ve sensed from what I’ve heard and read here and there.

        • Lokesh says:

          Watched the first few minutes of the Osho vid that Anubodh posted. Osho sounding and looking on good form. I do not know if he goes on to describe life after death as a fiction, because I only watched the beginning.

          Thing is, Osho has suggested on many occasions that life after death is a reality. He described what is said in the Bardo Thodol as ‘reality’, something I agree with.

          Love Osho’s description of life being meaningless, yet the beauty of a rose or a passing cloud is beautiful. I can dig that. Tea break over. Back to work on the land, under the sheltering sky.

        • Arpana says:

          Great to see Osho so animated.

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          What a beautiful tongue-tip taste of TAO´s Heart’s-Intelligence you´ve shared here with us, Anand Anubodh (at 9:46am).

          And thank you for This.

          Madhu

          PS:
          And may it be of some help anmidst the pundits’ competition-lines (after truly Listening).

          • Arpana says:

            Madhu said:
            “PS:
            And may it be of some help anmidst the pundits’ competition lines (after truly Listening).”

            Would you explain this, Madhu. I’m struggling to grasp your drift.

            Thanks in anticipation of your enlightening response,

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              Dear Arpana,
              You caught my drift, I´m pretty sure. You´re not struggeling, I suggest.

              And your last sentence of your post shows how a fabulous artist that you are (and quoting expert as well – with lots of instinct also here) waits to hit back with the one or the other insult (adressed to me as a female contributor here).
              You grasped what I expressed. No need for another version from my side.

              And thank you for this.

              Madhu

        • satyadeva says:

          I think Osho is saying there’s no life after death in the sense of a new, perhaps ‘ideal’, world where we end up, pretty well as we were in our lifetime (if we’ve been ‘good enough’, say the Christians) – the great consolation people cling to in the face of the dreaded obliteration of death.

          Esoteric traditions and Osho himself have said a great deal about the mystery of what happens in and after death. I thoroughly recommend, for instance, Barry Long’s famous talk, ‘Seeing Through Death (Facing the Fact Without Fear)’:

          https://youtu.be/N7yr7pqQvVQ (1 hr 19 mins.) or: https://youtu.be/H7j5pHuI5Jg (8 mins. ‘highlights’)

          This would also be a valuable response, I think, to the question you mentioned, Anubodh, that was asked of Shaun Carroll (today, 5.07pm) whose answer, while fair enough, was also honest enough to reveal the limitations of his knowledge.

  25. shantam prem says:

    There are some wiser than wise posts about Astrology.

    If without mentioning their names, around ten participants of sannyasnews let me know their date, time and place of birth, from their birth chart it will be clear which are those seven out of ten who write undercover!

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Shantam, behind my mask I have always had a bit of melancholy that ‘envelops me like honey’. Does it also happen to you to think that the more you become old the more you will be overwhelmed by memories?
      Or is it just another self-deception?

      “And running she met me down the stairs
      almost nothing seemed to be changed in her to me.
      Then sadness enveloped us like honey
      for the time slipped on us.
      The sun going down already
      reddened the city
      The sun going down already
      reddened the city
      once it was ours and now foreign
      and incredible and cold
      like an instant “deja vu”
      shadow of youth the fog was around us.

      Stable cars were looking us in silence,
      old walls were proposing new heroes.
      Ten years to tell each other,
      but sentences remained inside us
      “What do you do now? Do you remember…?
      Our times were beautiful!
      I have written you… It’s one year…
      They told me you were still away”
      Then dinner at her home
      my new courtesy
      flatware coloured nostalgia.
      And sentences, like we were two elderly,
      trying to reach that distant time behind us.
      For the first time I saw those mirrors
      I understood pictures, ornaments and her parents.

      Our myths dead now,
      the discover of Hemingway,
      when we perceived ourselves fresh,
      things dreamed and now seen.
      My America and hers
      become in the way
      our city so sad.
      Papers and wind fly away at the station
      cold and lights on maybe just for us
      and finally in short her situation
      like a lot of our films.
      Like in a bad written book
      he killed himself in Christmas,
      but the sad story seems to be absorbed by the dark.

      Poor friend who was telling
      ten year in few sentences
      and I (was telling) mine in one greeting.
      And I was thinking swung by the wagon
      “Dear friend, time takes and time gives.
      We always run in one direction,
      but who knows what is and what sense has!
      Timeless dreams remain,
      impressions of a moment,
      the lights of homes glimpsed in the darkness from a train.
      We are something that don’t remain
      empty sentences in the head
      and the heart full of symbols.”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYcPUDNVYJM

      • shantam prem says:

        Melancholy is the mother of our innermost seeds. Sometimes seeds get sunlight in this life or maybe in the next. I feel Nature gives everyone their 15 minutes of flowering fame.

        As per Neptunian make-up, many of spiritually-inclined people have always one foot in heaven, another in hell.

  26. Arpana says:

    @Lokesh.
    Sigh!!!!

  27. Lokesh says:

    Sigh!!! Arpana are you dressing up in drag again and admiring yourself in the mirror? I’ll bet you are a Divine fan and ‘Shake It Up’ is your favourite song…babe!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAEVgs1cZYI&list=RDpd2Gzkkwe9Q&index=4

    Man, what a freak!

  28. Arpana says:

    @ Lokesh. 13 February, 2019 at 6:07 pm
    Never heard of her.
    Big fan are you??

  29. Lokesh says:

    Yeah, sure, I am a big fan. Divine is a he, not a she.

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