The SN board only technically supports consecutive posts up to 100, and then sometimes goes hay wire.
Below is the outline of a discussion between Parmartha and Dhyan Raj over the New Year which got leaved in the wrong way – towards the end of the Mexican commune string.
Parmartha:
DR, The point is that if such a state (enlightenment) exists it is not ‘protective’. All human beings make mistakes, and that includes the enlightened, if you have to use that term.
It is a sad fact for many from the sub-continent that a much better division of men is those who can acknowledge and see their own mistakes, and who attract those around them who are of like mind. Then that elusive ‘flavour’ of real communication begins to come through.
My own view is what Rumi and others were talking about when they referred to “Sorbet” was close to this, and in any case one might call such a definition a “Modern Sorbet”.
A truly spiritual ‘conversation’ needs that, and of course it is elusive. Much easier to simply sit at the feet of a Master who thinks for you, and with whom no conversation of this type takes place.
Dhyan Raj
I don’t understand what you are saying, Parmartha – enlightenment is not ‘protective’, you say? Spiritual conversations? Acknowledging mistakes – what does any of that have to do with moving into no-mind, eh?
Since I am enlightened I will tell you and for free – absolutely nothing!! It’s all intellectual bollocks.
Then you rubbish the relationship of masters with their disciples, masters who you say think for you and you become a robot slave, I suppose you mean to imply – all rubbish, Parmartha.
I don’t know anything about Rumi or his “sorbet” – what I have experienced is the energy created around Osho and his buddhafield, and lately around Rajneesh and the new buddhafield. My God, Sannyas News intellectuals will make mind stew out of simple stuff – can’t you understand no-mind?
This is why I never became a guru, Parmartha, after my enlightenment: people are simply too stupid and only deserve a good kicking in vain attempt to awaken them – and even that will not work, I know.
Parmartha:
Hi DR, On the subject of mistakes, Osho himself answered me once, he said it was good to recognise that they were the ways humankind advanced in all fields. The point was to make as many mistakes as possible, and as quickly as possible. So I don’t think this domain of discourse about mistakes should be debarred.
I am interested to read ‘you’ are now self-declared enlightened. Don’t forget one of Osho’s whole books was called ‘Beyond Enlightenment’.
I saw that book at the time as Osho trying to shift the focus from enlightenment.
If in one paradigm people want to talk of being enlightened, etc, fair enough. But there is nothing ‘intellectual’ about common sense.
My take on it is that the Master/disciple paradigm is something rooted in history, and basically a zen thing. Whether it really fits here and now, I doubt.
“My take on it is that the Master/disciple paradigm is something rooted in history, and basically a zen thing. Whether it really fits here and now, I doubt.”
Parmartha, as a man from the West, you have to tell what fits with your collective mind of here and now. Master/disciple thing was never ever part of western world. The spiritual and religious export to the West by Indian masters of last century was a rare opportunity, I don´t think it will happen again that big. In reality, that big too was a small ripple in the big pond.
In my understanding, western seekers have to find their own paradigm, Indian model suits only to the overly sentimental types.
….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJaaq2x9sOM
Marty, how & where on Earth did you find this?!
Kavita…
At the Beethoven ‘Jerusalem Overture ‘ Music Theme Souvenir Shop, where you can buy stuff originally dedicated to a revolutionary Napoleon, until Beethoven realised he was Cuckoo.
The chess set includes a full set of instructions for the Mexican-defence opening chess move, first established by Pancho Villa El Rojo Zapatero de Cancun Y Pune (nicknamed El Bonkeros).. which includes being able to spontaneously switch sides and play the game from the opposite point of view.
This move is usually ignored by many inexperienced players and even El Bonkeros never actually performed the move in public, or at all, ever, not even privately, or amongst friends, because he didn’t really get close to anyone…well, he did once…but then she…
Erm, that’s another story….
Only one Champion finanalist allowed of course…
per game.
That is so cool, Marty!
How are you doing, cool digital chess player called cool ´Marty´?
Just curious -
Madhu
Hello Madhu..
A quiet online start to the New Year, with a last-minute rush for shares on Santa Sannyas share index.
Mallorca is silently natural in all the right places at this time of year. Also, my friend is helping me enjoy herself here.
With Kavita and yourself, Madhu, I realise I am now ‘two’ cool for this blog and am lost for words.
It’s probably just a winter chill and I might have to ‘blah blah blah’, but it’s unlikely anyone will notice the difference.
Congretulations, Prem Martyn, you´ve had a really good choice, sounds good.
Madhu
Big P, you said that the “Master thinks for you”. A Master doesn’t think. Not at all. Not even for himself – what to say for others?
Dhyan Raj, what do you mean “moving to non-mind”? There is no movement from mind to non-mind, it is a jump. By the way, I don’t mind to have my ass kicked to wake up. You kick mine and I will kick yours – deal?
Dhyanraj said somewhere that mind is “all intellectual bollocks”.
And he`s right, it’s all balls, of course. Nothing to do with “no-mind”.
The thing is, even if you manage to get enlightened you will still have to use these “balls” to communicate with others, and function in this world.
People may get enlightened, but it doesn`t mean they will have the kind of brilliant mind and intellect that Osho demonstrated. Their minds, that are are left over with their bodies, may just be balls.
These kind of enlightened ones may be better off just saying nothing, or just sitting silently with other meditators.
The enlightened energy will do the rest.
That would be a cheaper, smaller version of it then?
Enlidlment?
Yep, book your place now, Herrshree Shanteim. It might take some time to get to the checkout…have you tried their own-brand copy version? It looks the same and nearly does the job and you save lots….
No, not a cheaper, smaller version of it, just more silent sitting and less talking…just listening to the birds and the trains whistling without the Master banging on about “Egyistenssss…”
Perhaps some singing or some dancing…
Once I met a lady mystic who would dance and sing in the street…she would only talk in gibberish, which made things confusing – plus she was speaking a mix of Bengali, Urdu, Hindi and other languages…
But her point was to leave the mind behind. I don’t think she was enlightened though….
In the future in the West, when we have a more enlightened society, stupid satsang teachers, who are known to not really know about anything except for “the One”, can still get some kind of employment to sit in halls, as a sort of job, from nine to five, just sitting silently with meditators and doing nothing (but they won’t be allowed to say anything).
Of course, lunch and tea breaks will be provided, as well as some kind of salary.
Diane Rage,
You’re not confusing getting your OAP bus pass with enlightenment are you, by chance?
Not the same thing, you know.
I wonder why Martyn does not sue Osho foundation International in consumer court. He is one such customer who did not get worth of its time and investment from the product called Sannyas.
Basically, all the religious products offerings have also smallprints written on the empty pages: “Investment is subject to market risks. Company takes no responsibility for any loss.”
@satyadeva 2 January, 2016 at 7:22 pm
I agree. Looks fantastic; and clearly, not everyone involved has their heads all the way up their own bottoms.
MOD: WRONG TOPIC, ARPANA!
This is a response to SD’s reply to me, old bean?
MOD: WHAT’S THIS ABOUT, PLEASE, ARPANA?
Perhaps a gentler way of putting this, to those who so oppose the “mind”, like Dhyan Raj, is a reminder about Socrates, regarded as enlightened by Osho, but who himself would have been totally unfamiliar with the Buddhist tradition of enlightenment.
The Socratic ‘method’ was always one that used question and answer, so his talks were nothing but a series of difficult questions.
As for Shantam Prem’s over-simplistic view that the master/disciple relationship was solely an eastern thing, actually those who followed Socrates and who stood with him to the end when he was forced to swallow poison, were called disciples. As were the followers of Jesus, who, according to the English Bible translations from the Greek, called him “Master”.
I found his statement that he is enlightened interesting, although I have no idea if this is so, nor do I know if Osho is, I should add, but I don’t care one way or other if Osho is. He has been and remains a luminary for me.
Most interesting for me is that Dhyan Raj’s claim gives him no credibility, for me, nor do I feel particularly negative towards him, I want to add.
Brian doesn’t impress me either, and in fact I just feel completely dismissive of him, the way I do towards Shantam, as although the latter doesn’t claim enlightenment, he obviously believes he is, or at the least that he is Osho’s successor.
Have in fact come across a Chilean woman who is enlightened, apparently, and to me she did have, does have a certain credibility, or I could say I felt open to her. (I don’t want to be her follower, or anything like that, but I felt anything but dismissive of her, and was gently impressed/touched/warmed by how she came across, online, at least).
P.S:
That chap who died recently. Forgotten his name. I felt open to him, and now I think about it, that Canadian guy, who says he got enlightened in prison. Felt open to him as well. He posted here. (To my surprise, actually. Young bloke. Forty at most).
P.P.S:
Actually, Brian’s got way more credibility than Shantam. He did at least get off his arse and take action, as opposed to sitting around, whining and carping all the time.
Many times people avoid stupid and arrogant posts. Such posts even stop the flow of creativity in the people who read them.
MOD: POST EDITED. SHANTAM, PLEASE RELATE YOUR REMARKS TO SPECIFIC POINTS IN SPECIFIC POST(S).
Yep, love that Socratic method.
Originally involved writing the question on a clay tablet, sending by DonkyiosExpressi, avoiding Sparta and Thermopylae, then waiting around inside a large wooden horse for a bit, by the river Meander, ensuring that the question (and reply) was then vetted by an expert team of Socratic postal workers on overtime (lots of sitting around wondering, not much work)then passing the reply to a youthful, muscular adonine runner who could cover the last 100 leagues on foot by nightfall, before the city’s gates closed. Then reading the reply and, waxing lyrical under a starlit night sky, considering the verses:
“There is the heat of Love, the pulsing rush of Longing, the lover’s whisper, irresistible—magic to make the sanest man go mad.”
Then fish out the clay tablet again, hand it back to the juvenile and rather handsome panting boy, offer to oil down his lithesome body, pay him three silver lacunae to return to the ferry at Volos by sundown and bid him farewell with the entreaty to avoid the staring of the Cyclops, Polyphemus, whose singular eye of perception has been blinded by Odysseus and now in revenge sits blind at the cave (of the subconscious) attempting to prevent unwary men from leaving and continuing on their Odyssey across Poseidon’s turbulent sea of understanding to Ithaca and home to the welcoming security of their loving spouses who awaited their brave….
Written by Homer, of course….
Enlightenment…
God´s grace, it has become one of the most used word by the people who walk a mile and call it a world travel.
“I am enlightened” – what does it mean?
Does it mean donkey has finally realized he is not a horse?
Somewhere, something has gone fishy with the term ‘enlightenment’. Those who should have been in the priestly occupation seem to use ‘enlightenment’ as an up-gradation.
MOD: up-gradation MEANS WHAT, PLEASE, SHANTAM?
Up-gradation:
I think this word is used in air travel industry. When someone requests a shift from economy to business class.
If this helps…
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=upgradation
Thanks Anubodh, the link is a good English teacher.
It also feels good to know how Indians modify the language!
“Such posts even stop the flow of creativity in the people who read them.”
seems this post may have stopped a readers creativity but it sure has got out your best!
Few people prefer to be bitchy! This is their way of getting attention.
Seems you excel in that field!
For me, it is first time seen photo of Osho.
Choice of the food tells, Osho is an Indian. “His body is an Indian” for the sensitive emotions of global disciples!