Priortise working on oneself

Working on oneself the Priority – not the so-called “Work”

Particularly from the year 1984,  Osho seemed unconcerned about getting people to engage in so called  “spreading of His message”.  A phrase that is still often found on the lips of some older sannyasins,  who seem consumed by that matter.

Osho was very much aware of the fact that people engaged in spreading His message may end up by being a bit like Christian missionaries. Even in the earlier years i.e. sometime in 1969 or 1970 he had made it very clear to the people who were involved in his work, that their individual development should be the first  priority and that spreading his message should be secondary.

He did not want that his sannyasins should spend their valuable time for this work ignoring their own development.

We give below the early extract of one of Osho’s discourses in ‘Anant Ki Pukar’ which were delivered sometime in 1969/1970:

“You have to remember that no matter how involved you become in this work; it is not the most important thing. The most important thing is that bliss and light descends in your life. If you have that, you will be able to share. If you don’t have that, you will not be able to share.

So we do not want a functionary who is not a seeker. We don’t need such functionaries, because if not today, then tomorrow, that functionary will start suffering. He will get into trouble and he will throw the whole responsibility unto us: “They got me entangled in some work and I lost everything.”

“A friend, Manik Prabhu, who is himself from Pune, went to Vinoba.  He first went to Ramkrishna Mission and they placed him to work in a hospital – so for three or four years he served in a hospital. Then he felt, “This is okay, I could have done this work in any hospital, but what has it accomplished? It has not taken me anywhere. I am still where I was before.”

“He left and went to Vinoba. Vinoba said,” For ten years, walk around the whole country taking my literature to every village.” 

”The poor man started going from village to village with his bag of publications. He has been traveling around for two years now.

And about three days ago he came to Jabalpur and came to see me.” 

”So I said to him,”Now a second hospital round has started!” “It is good that he has realized this after a just few years: “This is a hospital, all fine and good, but what has this changed within me?” 

”What will he get by selling Gita Pravachen – Vinoba’s book?

Or if I take Gita Pravachan away from him and instead give him my Perfect Way or Seeds of Wisdom and ask him to go around selling them from village to village for ten years, what will that do for him?”

“So I told him, “If you have no idea that this is secondary and that something else, which is not to be forgotten, is central, then just as those hospital days went to waste, so will these ten years. Otherwise what will you  bring to the people? And from where does this question of ‘bring to the people’ even arise?” 

”So the seeker becomes first, his being a worker is absolutely secondary. And if you have to lose one of the two, let go of being a worker, not of being a seeker.”

“You will find many people ready to work immediately, but remember: only if in so doing this takes them to non-doing is it meaningful, only then is it spiritual; otherwise not. The centre that we are going to create is for teaching non-doing. So don’t let it happen that you become just a worker. Then the whole point is lost. What would be accomplished through building such a centre? It would be futile, it would have no value.”

(SN)

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100 Responses to Priortise working on oneself

  1. Kavita says:

    For me, working on myself is a better option than working. Thank you, Existence, for doing the needful!

  2. samarpan says:

    SN: “Even in the earlier years i.e. sometime in 1969 or 1970, he had made it very clear to the people who were involved in his work that their individual development should be the first priority and that spreading his message should be secondary.”

    Yes, once again we have evidence that Osho was completely consistent in his essential message. There are no quotes to be found ‘in the archives’ where Osho says he wants sannyasins to be missionaries. Osho cannot be made to contradict himself.

    In 1969/70 he said: “The most important thing is that bliss and light descends in your life.” Throughout the 70s and 80s he said the same thing in many different ways. But he never contradicted himself on this.

    Osho cannot be quoted against himself, in one place saying not to be missionaries and in another place saying to be missionaries. Osho has complete message consistency against being missionaries.

  3. shantam prem says:

    What a mental churning. I have always the feeling, people who run Sannyasnews, their life with Osho ended after the collapse of Rajneeshpuram.

    After this phase, they are drawing conclusions like the newspaper readers, “Lady Diana’s death was an accident or conspiracy.”

    Is it really so that intellect gets stuck after certain years of age? One becomes protective about the past, one’s own past?

    • Arpana says:

      What a mental churning. Shantam, his life with Osho ended after 1990.

      After this phase, he is drawing conclusions like the newspaper readers, “Lady Diana’s death was an accident or conspiracy.”

      Is it really so that intellect gets stuck after certain years of age? One becomes protective about the past, one’s own past?

      • shantam prem says:

        There are hundred-plus posts at sannyasnews, where one Greek swami and gentleman known as Arpana uses much contents of my posts to release his anguish.
        I take it as a compliment.

        Santa, “I have seen your sister speaking with some unknown person.”
        Banta, “So what? I have seen your wife speaking with some unkown person.”

        Sometimes I wonder why the in-house psychologist called Satyadeva does not analyse our devoted friend.

        • Arpana says:

          Many children are more capable of a bit of honest self reflection than you Shantam.

        • satyadeva says:

          Yes, this must indeed be a baffling conundrum for you, Shantam.

          As I’m extremely busy with patients and because I favour ‘self-discovery’ rather than giving my clients ‘answers’, all I can suggest is that for the next three months you make it a meditation, a constant question during all your waking hours, as in: “Why does Arpana repeat my very own words to describe me?”

          So, carry on wondering….

      • Lokesh says:

        El Chudo poses the simple question, “Is it really so that intellect gets stuck after certain years of age?”

        What is puzzling is why such an obvious example of getting stuck at a certain age asks such a thing, seeing as how the chud producer is stuck at the certain age of twelve…although still failing to complete his potty-training course.

  4. shantam prem says:

    Spreading of his message, doing of Osho’s work; at least in Indian subcontinent many good samaritans are engaged into. To do this kind of work you need to grow beard, wear weird kind of robes. Also, it requires a chair and easy to install microphone.

    In the West, group leaders sometimes get internal satisfaction to mention the work. After all, to pour lemon juice on dry salad is a work!

  5. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    One thing for sure, Samarpan (and maybe others), Osho has been strictly against missionarism, in whatsoever ´name´, whatsoever.

    I remember Him once telling a joke about what happened when three missionaries fell into the hands of a cannibal tribe and were tortured (as entertainment for the whole tribe) and then slaughtered one by one – like cannibals like to do. Then the dinner party…

    The Silence after this ´joke ´was very profound. And it was one of the toughest jokes I ever heard Him tell us, by the way.

    You, Samarpan, and – if I remember that rightly – didn´t meet Osho in his bodily Presence also, but you seem sincerely to have got hooked by that which He has to share, don´t you? At least I feel it that way, when reading some of your last postings here.

    It´s kind of difficult for me to separate ´working on oneself´ and being worked ´on myself´ by Existence, all the time, moment to moment, feeling more a particle in a wave, so to say; the ´ocean´ not something far away and a target to go for.

    And that has been the ecstacy peak conscious moments in the Sangha too. AND HIS Presence.

    To let go of those moments, to make space for the next ones, quite something to learn (or to unlearn), however you like to put it.

    However, His teaching-no-teaching of letting go of ANY moment, to face Life with fresh eyes and senses, has been for me the most profound; and I am always a beginner (and a failure in this so often too).

    I loved to read what you wrote on this issue, Samarpan, as you seem to have more than a glimpse on essential issues, concerning the long, long time and phases and His Responses to the latter. And to us in the Sangha too.

    When I get stuck, and I get stuck quite often, I get stuck because of trauma, and for me indigestible experiences in inter-human traffic affairs, one can say.

    I do not like the word ´work´ that much, although it´s very common to use it – see alone the Gurdijeff stuff or the Enneagram ´work-through’…

    Maybe I am less ´German’ this way than Prem Martyn proposes it…

    There are as many ways and as well even as many steps on the way as people.

    And to dignify that, Osho did much more ´than a good job´, to share. And in THIS, my love affair to Osho is rooted, I can´t help it.

    And, Shantam Prem, that doesn´t mean AT ALL not to appreciate other wisdom whisperers of other times or contemporaries who trigger this Inside-Outside flavor of SPIRIT.

    Spring Sun out here, when I look out of the window, trees, bushes, and the lawn giving brilliant signs of LIFE, in spite of us humans – how wonderful that is.

    Madhu

    • frank says:

      Maddy,
      I`m glad you mentioned the old bunga bunga joke.
      It`s one of my favourites too…

      Three missionaries were on a mission looking
      for potential converts on a remote inland in the South Pacific.

      Over time, all three were captured by a tribe of headhunters.

      Some of the tribe’s warriors wanted to eat the missionaries immediately, but the village elders demanded that the normal protocol be followed, and the three were brought before the Chief for judgment.

      Looking to the first missionary, the Chief asked, “Death, or Bunga Bunga?” The missionary thought for a moment and then said, “I’ll take Bunga Bunga.” The Chief gestured to the
      warriors, and the first missionary was led away into the jungle.

      Soon thereafter, the other two missionaries heard a lengthy series of blood-curdling screams, followed by silence.

      The chief turned to the second missionary and asked, “Death, or Bunga Bunga?” The second missionary looked at the third missionary, who could only shrug his shoulders. The second
      missionary said, “Give me Bunga Bunga.” The second missionary was led into the jungle as was the first. Again there came a long sequence
      of screams that shook the third missionary to his core.

      The Chief now looked to the third missionary and asked in his sternest voice, “Death or Bunga Bunga?” Fearing the screams that had followed the other missionaries being led away, the third missionary asked, “What’s Bunga Bunga?”

      The Chief grinned and said, “Bunga Bunga when warrior with biggest dick bend you over log and Bunga you Bunga!”

      Deciding that Bunga Bunga was an ordeal worse than death itself, the third missionary said, “I’ll take Death.” The Chief grinned hugely, and then said, “So be it, as you wish:
      DEATH BY BUNGA BUNGA!”

    • Lokesh says:

      “The Silence after this ´joke´ was very profound.
      Perhaps that was because nobody got it. Death by bunga bunga…very deep.

      • frank says:

        That’s not the “toughest joke” he told.The sickest one was (anyone have the ref?):

        A man is late for his son’s birth and when he arrives at the hospital the doctor calls him. The doctor picks the babe out of his cot and then suddenly and violently hurls the baby at the ceiling. The kid bounces heavily off the ceiling and when it bangs down hard on the floor the doctor proceeds to viciously stamp both of his feet into the head of the child as he jumps up and down on it.

        Paralysed by this astonishing scene, the father mumbles, “But…what are you doing…my baby…”

        The doctor then picks the baby up, smiles at the father and says:
        “Come on, can`t you take a joke? He was stillborn.”

        • Arpana says:

          In theory, anything is suitable for a joke.
          In practice, that makes me feel sick.

          Can’t find a reference to it.

        • Tan says:

          Frank, I remember this joke and I remember thinking when I heard it that the guy whose question he was answering totally deserved it! Cheers!

  6. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Frank,
    How different results can show up, when listening to a joke, isn´t it?

    Maybe you should look to reach some very remote places? Where you can outlive stuff which came out of ‘mode’?

    Madhu

    MOD: MADHU, WHAT DOES THIS LAST SENTENCE MEAN, PLEASE, ESPECIALLY ‘out of mode’?

  7. Lokesh says:

    I have two of Osho’s worst jokes in mind:
    The swami with menstrual blood on his beard answers the door and his mate says, “Your girlfriend has her period.” The swami thinks his pal has developed psychic powers.

    And the one about the pervert father who makes his 12 year-old daughter give him a blow-job to get money for the movies. His daughter does the job and complains about the taste of shit. Pervo dad smiles and asks, “How do you think your little brother, Johnny, made the money to buy popcorn?”

    Everyone laughed at the time, separate discourses, but I remember thinking that the old man was really pushing the envelope with those ones.

    Arps can check, must have been round ’79 or ’80, but not 100% sure. I rarely read Osho books and have never come across those jokes in print…would not be surprised if they had been edited out, which would be quite understandable.

  8. Tan says:

    Arps, my dear, you are very polite, thank you very much! No, I am not a Brit, are you? I ask because you are a gentleman and a very British one! X X

  9. Tan says:

    No, Yogi, I didn’t know hanky panky is derived from the Hindi. Thanks and I will check. Cheers!

  10. prem martyn says:

    As long as its not working-class on oneself, I’m not bothered.

    Toodle pip.

  11. Shantam prem says:

    Pussy, cunt, machinery, dick, blow-job, fuck, screwing; Osho has spoken these words available in his urban dictionary of his time. The whole Zen series spoken in the end phase of his life has the videographed evidence of playboy jokes.

    Why he was pushing the enevelope to his maximum? Why in his ashram all kind of sex and romantic love-based relations were encouraged? Was Osho trying to win the loyalty of those few thousand people available by pimping for them?

    It will be a very misfortune if we don’t accept Osho was not one of those hundreds of Indian gurus who have the similar Ayurvedic approach to Life.

    • satyadeva says:

      Without the ‘sexual freedom’, would you have bothered, Shantam?

      Come on now, let’s have an honest answer. Come on, ‘work on yourself’, man!

      • shantam prem says:

        How people look like, who have worked on themselves?
        Do they get horns?
        It will be clear after seeing who this gentleman Satyadeva is?

        • satyadeva says:

          By failing to provide a straight answer, Shantam confirms that, yes, if it wasn’t for the ‘sexual freedom’ he wouldn’t have bothered. (But of course, he doesn’t realise that yet)…

          Meanwhile, he’s busy writing a book, ’1001 Ways to Avoid Answering Difficult Questions’…

          Yes, it’s true, a thoroughly mediocre career in ‘spiritual politics’ awaits….

          • shantam prem says:

            I am always willing to answer but to real people.

            People who are so coward, so calculative to hide their face for no apparent reason deserve no answer.

            How one can discuss deeper issues of life with dummies?

            • satyadeva says:

              Just more transparent bullshit, Shantam. The truth is you’re NOT in the slightest “always willing to answer”, you’ve avoided issues countless times here at SN, you’re renowned for it.

              In fact, I doubt whether you even bother to properly read many posts addressed to you as soon as they appear potentially ‘difficult’.

              This photo nonsense is simply a convenient excuse to slide away from having to deal with another particularly tricky point.

              So, as I said, your non-response indicates that you wouldn’t have bothered with Sannyas if it hadn’t been for the so-called ‘free sex’. In other words, your silence speaks (and has spoken) volumes.

  12. prem martyn says:

    No, Shantam, he wasn’t pimping, he was sponsoring what the daily grind doesn’t.

    Unfortunately, some twats turned it into a form of obligational, dislocated association of an un-nourishing ideology around mortal needs (through distorted language and ideation) with so much interference that it became impossible to create any model of relational involvement that was both affectionate and reliable, as a result of dysfunctionality in the human realm – one of the biggest toxins known to humanity- with neither adolescent nor mature versions of ‘agreements’ in relationships existing unquestioningly. And with opportunity a-plenty for investigation, biodynamic stress positions and non-objectification of lust.

    The main focus was always singular/ devotional/ideologically non-invested mortal relating, with emphasis on creating space for the gaps in presumptions.

    Add to that the vital needs for either offspring parenting, economic stability, professional development, integrating into a sponsored peer group in the West and developing one’s latent dynamic talents whilst absolving all other negative influences of any historical family legacy with compassion and fluency, whilst under the age of 30…and you get..?

    Solid Piss-Taking, because someting has to blow.

    Apparently, you can do it all in one life whilst being Vegan too.

    Thanks, Osho, for trying.

    If anyone missed, here’s the next throw of the dice (reduced scale, after the pub).

    http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/omg-how-the-orgasmic-meditation-craze-has-got-london-in-a-frenzy-10087384.html

    • Tan says:

      Great post, Martyn, this time I’ve understood, maybe because I can relate to it. And thanks, your references are really interesting, first the “Vaginal Kung Fu Course”, now the “Orgasmic Meditation”. I wonder what will come next? Cheers!

      • prem martyn says:

        Thanks Tan, you’re welcome.

        Orgasmic Meditation…mmm, tangentially speaking, includes Breathwork – I mentioned Leonard Orr a few posts back…

        And just found this reminder about how Osho’s work substantially connected the breath with changing state.

        These links connect Breathwork, through the Czech renowned researcher Stanislav Grof, LSD, Albert Hoffmann and orgasmic states.

        Ohhhhh, yessssssss yesssss…

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uxvwiwY2OU

        http://reset.me/story/entering-psychedelic-state-without-psychedelics-inside-holotropic-breathwork/

        • prem martyn says:

          It’s not a brilliant documentary, though the opening and the first minutes have some charming interviews with Hoffman and Grof, and dotted occasionally throughout(eg 34.01 &gt).

          There’s a better one called ‘The Substance’ and made in 2011 by Martin Witz, to buy or stream online (or, I suggest meekly, ask Lokesh for his memoirs :-) . (I don’t like to give out the free stream but its findable). Enjoy.

          • prem martyn says:
            • frank says:

              I see the much maligned and previously sacked-by-the-govt. drugs expert Professor Nutt (no, really) is in the news again, campaigning for various uses for LSD.

              He likens the attitudes of the authorities to psychedelics to the banning of Galileo`s telescopes by the Vatican back in the day when they didn’t want anyone to find out that the world was round.

              He has a point.

  13. Lokesh says:

    El Chudo enquires, “Was Osho trying to win the loyalty of those few thousand people available by pimping for them?”

    No, he was not. What he was doing was promoting promiscuity in his commune, which is quite the opposite of what traditional gurus do, ie separate the boys from the girls.

    The end result is the same. It becomes difficult to form deep emotional bonds with members of the opposite sex. Thus the emotional energy normally devoted to forming opposite sex relationships is directed towards the guru.

    • frank says:

      Yes, there were quite a few widows and widowers after Osho split the planet.
      Some of them went on to form Sgt.Papaji`s Lonely Hearts Club Band…
      Some took the Long and winding road…
      And some just Let It Be…

      But I guess in the end, the love that you take is equal to the love you make….

  14. shantam prem says:

    Working on oneself!

    Is this the copyrighted, trademarked line of Osho Sannyas Unlimited?

    Many times one gets the impression as if nobody prior to us meditated and worked on oneself.

    It is like Osho is the finest discourse speaker, but surely not the first one and not the last one.

  15. shantam prem says:

    Working on oneself or working on others…
    Here is a picture:
    M/s Jain Bros.
    Wholesale and Retail sellers of high-class spirituality.

  16. Parmartha says:

    Happy Holi to all our Indian bloggers!

    A few sad facts that should make you become an internationalist, rather than a nationalist. Being an internationalist is at least a first step in self-development.

    1) India imports more arms than anyone else except for Saudi Arabia. In a country with such poverty it makes me shiver.

    2) Modi is now starting a campaign for more public toilets in India as he thinks that this will improve public health. I have been in quite a few public toilets in India – my God, give me a trowel and bush anytime. No chance there of improving public health.

    3) The Indian govt. have banned a BBC film, ‘India’s Daughter’, about the poor 23 year-old female medical student that was raped and left for dead in Delhi a while back. Yes, a very enlightened government, would you not say?!
    Lets hope you can receive this film from this link, in India. Let us know:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05534p0/storyville-20142015-19-indias-daughter

    • prem martyn says:

      The BBC cannot be streamed outside of the UK due to licensing laws. But you can use a proxy server, which of course I am not endorsing, which would indicate that one’s computer is in the UK, although it might well not be – because it is being served by a proxy that is.

      No recommendation intended, of course.

      http://whatismyipaddress.com/using-proxies

      • Parmartha says:

        Thanks Martyn. Lets hope our Indian friends can use your link.

        The documentary disturbed me, but it’s important that the Indian Government are not allowed to get away with such censorship.

  17. shantam prem says:

    1) “India imports more arms than anyone else except for Saudi Arabia. In a country with such poverty it makes me shiver.”

    India’s population is more than the combined population of European Union. India’s military budget will look like peanuts with the budget of European nations. Also, India is surrounded by two hostile nations. Robust army is a deterrent agianst mischievous misadventures of NaPak(istan) and China.

    2) “Modi is now starting a campaign for more public toilets in India as he thinks that this will improve public health. I have been in quite a few public toilets in India – my God, give me a trowel and bush anytime. No chance there of improving public health.”

    Again, it is a heresay and full of old memories. Level of public health is improving year by year. One can read about the increase in average lifespan of Indians.

    Parmartha, my suggestion is please visit India before winter of old age makes it impossible. India has changed remarkably in infrastructure development during last 10, 15 years.

    The idea to build millions of subsidised toilets in private households is a step forward towards modernity.

    3) “The Indian govt. have banned a BBC film, ‘India’s Daughter’. Indian media and public opinion is up against this stupid and ill-advised decision.”

    I must say, Indian press has got its teeth from the glorious British press.

    On one level, India is step ahead because it has no monarchy. On another level, India is many steps ahead from Osho’s Sannyas movement too. Why I think so? Maybe in the next post.

    • anand yogi says:

      Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
      The ignorance of the western baboons about the glorious religions of mighty Bhorat is now matched by their complete lack of knowledge about Indian public toilets!

      Of course, as Modi has made clear, public toilets were in fact invented in India, in Vedic times, long before the Western science, at the same time as plastic surgery and stem-cell technology and the Vedic science of starsigns by a holy sage known as Bum Shanks, whose yogic feats included sitting in a squatting position for many years in a cubicle in Rishikesh.

      The public toilets of Vedic science were built with exact astronomical information and designed with the astrological movements of the heavens in mind. Thus the movements of the people were perfectly synchronised with the movements of the planets!

      It was absolutely necessary for the angle of Uranus to be positioned at exactly the correct degree to avoid large orbs of malefic dark matter from splashing on the quintiles and the floor tiles!

      The reason that modern Indian toilets are now in a less than satisfactory state is because this advanced knowledge was destroyed by successive invasions of Mughals and British and eventually left the inhabitants of mighty Bhorat with no choice but to crap on their own doorsteps or down by the railway line!

      This is why it is absolutely necessary that heros like yourself, Bhai, should battle to re-ignite the religions of mighty Bhorat which must be wrestled from the hands of those westerners who have hijacked our mighty shrines for their own ends!

      With Modi’s efforts and your priceless work in contacting the invisible readers, it will be soon possible to realise the dream that every Indian should have access to both a computer and a public toilet, thus enabling unlimited downloads in the comfort of the own home!

      Yahoo!
      Hari Om!

  18. Parmartha says:

    Shantam,
    The correction to my point two above – accepted. Not sure what “public” toilet was meant to mean in the press report I read, but if the toilets are in-house, then that makes sense if they are giving grants to make those.

    I felt very sad when I watched the film ‘India’s Daughter’. I myself, even in 2000 when last there, always felt that India was a sort of ‘safe’ country, but clearly things have changed. The government of India is mistaken in banning the film.

    Frankly, I am mystified as to why they would do so. It is clearly a good documentary based on solid work and research, and meant to show up the tragedy of modern Indian society which cannot still allow young educated Indian women the right to run their own lives.

    Now, Shantam, I do wonder if you yourself have actually seen the film?

  19. shantam prem says:

    I have seen the excerpts of ‘India’s Daughter’ and read the contents of many talk shows. I feel it is a very sincere effort by the BBC reporter. Many educated elites have expressed their opinion that “It is a must-watch documentary for every Indian.”

    Modi-led government is very narrow-minded. Osho would have kicked on their butts, he was doing it already as the parent organisation RSS is fully devoted to Hindu cause.

    I think every Indian observer must keep in mind, “India is one such country where all the centuries live together, there is a clash of cultures in between the society.”

    As modern Indian woman is changing faster than the male counterparts – even the girls in the villages wish to wear jeans – some kind of side-effect is bound to be created.

    But overall situation is not bad. Stastically, crime rate in general is still quite lower in comparison with many Latin American countries.

    By nature, Indians are warm-hearted and helpful, though I must confess, here the curve is in downward way. Lack of civil courage is very much in discussion in the talk shows.

  20. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    I can confirm, Parmartha, that chauvinism and sexism and sadism and violence against the female sex are indeed – here, in the western rich industrial countries – pretty much ´invisible´, and rather rarely acted out the way we hear and see that looking at India in that documentary (and India not as the only country of such barbarism).

    I can also confirm hat the very sophisticated ways and means female existence and expression is destroyed here in these realms is rarely evident, yet is in progress. Mainly (at least mostly) by other means than the raw and obvious violence on the female body.

    So, especially on this very male-oriented website here, which includes facing a lot of sexism and open contempt about female expression; in expressed fantasies, fantasies indulging in hardcore violence concerning sex-life in general.

    I´d like to remind contributors to maybe investigate their ‘tears’ about a lethal rape on a woman and their ´maybe´ imagination to be like light years ´above´ or beyond those cretins who claimed (not only in India, by the way!) that this woman ´deserved´ the treat.

    You can find that here also, yet under loads of hypocrisy. And sometimes even with a clerical stink about the latter. Or some spiritual ´mantra´. Or some ´instant-karma´ logos one has borrowed from other cultures as an ideological legitimation to show up with indifference.

    I am speaking out of my life experience, and my experience is my authority about such matters. Besides that, I know, that as a woman I am not alone with that knowing.

    The way the big dream I had, when entering the Sannyas realms, has been crushed, has been utterly painful; a dream that in a meditative Sangha around Osho I would be spared of rotten chauvinism and also violence (including heavy abuse).

    And the ways just this UK website is often refreshing some trauma re these issues, is the reason I write this down tonight.

    And I also write this because of all this ´inner man/inner woman´ stuff workshopping experts, who, I presume, are partly present here. Either as trainees (maybe workshop leaders) or as participants.

    Madhu

    • Tan says:

      Great post, Madhu. You are a very brave woman. Cheers!

      • Tan says:

        Satyadeva, my dear, I don’t know if Madhu is lonely, isolated or is suffering for missing love. I’ve just said that she is very brave for her post and she is! I am sorry about your friend and I can guess that he was living in UK?

        Now, I agree with you about the psychic inheritance. Cheers!

        • satyadeva says:

          But you don’t explain why her post is “very brave”. Perhaps you come from a place where women hardly dare to say anything remotely ‘challenging’ or explain in detail how unhappy they are?

          Over here in western Europe, it’s really nothing out of the ordinary to hear or read such detailed statements of anger and pain, either for public or purely personal consumption, it’s ‘par for the course’, as it were.

          • Tan says:

            Satyadeva, my dear, she is very brave because she exposed herself, without fear. Couldn’t you see that?

            Right now I am over here, very much near you, and all this stuff about women’s anger, pain, etc…you should read Madhu post again. Give another try! Cheers!

            • satyadeva says:

              As I’ve said today, if Madhu says it took courage to write what she did then fair enough, I accept that. Didn’t you see my post to that effect?

              But being “very brave” implies doing something despite fear, not its absence. Perhaps though, that’s what you mean but haven’t made clear?

              Btw, I’ve read Madhu’s post several times and as I said before, I don’t really find its content surprising, having heard similar often enough before, including some from Madhu herself.

              It’s also amazing what sheer, unadulterated anger – or desperation – can do at times in terms of overcoming normally held inhibitions, self-restraints. Something we all surely know from our individual lives, in and/or out of Sannyas?

            • satyadeva says:

              Why not say where exactly you come from, Tan?

              P.S: I am not your “dear”!

              • Tan says:

                Sorry, Satyadeva, no “my dear” anymore! Nowadays, I am Welsh!
                And I was born in the Dolomites – satisfied? Cheers!

                • satyadeva says:

                  No, because you haven’t answered my question: Which country do you come from, ie where were you brought up and have mainly lived, especially in your formative years?

              • Arpana says:

                BET you’re in Pembrokeshire, aincha’, Tan?

              • Tan says:

                Satyadeva, let me remind you, here is Sannyasnews not ‘This is your Life’, but I will satisfy your curiosity. I lived in Brazil and India, but my choice between the two was Brazil. And is where I live and will die, I hope! And that is enough! Bye!

            • Arpana says:

              Tan. I lived down that way as a teenager. That’s where all the ‘hippies’ and ‘bohemian’ types usually end up.:))

          • Arpana says:

            @ satyadeva 13 March, 2015 at 4:43 pm

            Sannyas News is a lot more a bear pit than a teddy bear’s picnic, yah know, SD.

  21. Kavita says:

    Very sadly true what Madhu expresses. Thank you, Madhu, for being a catalyst for such a real discussion.

    I sincerely feel & think that this issue cannot be dealt with only by discussions & government reforms but with actual/real introspection by both men & women in one’s own relationships with each other. Sorry for sounding preachy.

    These matters are much deeper than we may think & the solutions cannot be instant, the only feasible solution has always been educating the born children of both sexes in a free environment; unfeasible solution is not having children.

    I feel & think we cannot expect quick results from any governments & there is no sense in blaming one another for such kind of situation.

    • frank says:

      Madhu,
      you say:

      “So, especially on this very male-oriented website here, which includes facing a lot of sexism and open contempt about female expression; in expressed fantasies, fantasies indulging in hardcore violence concerning sex-life in general.

      I´d like to remind contributors to maybe investigate their ‘tears’ about a lethal rape on a woman and their ´maybe´ imagination to be like light years ´above´ or beyond those cretins who claimed (not only in India, by the way!) that this woman ´deserved´ the treat.”

      Is that so?

      SN contributors express hard-core sexual violent fantasies and believe that the rape victim was asking for it and deep down would have enjoyed the idea of it?

      Really?

      No doubt you will construe it as another “sophisticated way and means female existence and expression is destroyed here”
      if I say that these claims represent your own fantastical and distorted view of things.

      • Kavita says:

        “SN contributors express hard-core sexual violent fantasies and believe that the rape victim was asking for it and deep down would have enjoyed the idea of it. Really?”

        Can you, Frank, PLEASE let us know how you inferred this? As I have not been so aware as to infer this.

        MOD: KAVITA, FRANK IS QUESTIONING MADHU’S STANCE, NOT ‘EXAGGERATING’ IT.

        • frank says:

          Kavita,
          Madhu wrote:

          “I´d like to remind contributors to maybe investigate their ‘tears’ about a lethal rape on a woman and their ´maybe´ imagination to be like light years ´above´ or beyond those cretins who claimed (not only in India, by the way!) that this woman ´deserved´ the treat.”

          It`s badly written, which fudges the clarity of the meaning, I grant you. For example: “‘tears’ about a lethal rape on a woman and their ´maybe´ imagination to be like light years `above` or beyond those cretins” is a pretty bizarre turn of phrase, to be sure.

          I take it to translate as something like:
          “To those on SN who are speaking against the rapes in India, I would like to remind them that maybe they are not so very different (light years above) to the perpetrators.”

          It`s essentially saying, “all men are rapists.”
          If you are happy with that, then I wish you good luck for your future relationships.

          • prem martyn says:

            Frank, we are all potential therapists. Anyone lying on their back for no particular reason whilst exchanging payment is in danger of being worked on by forces beyond usual control for the purposes of growth.

            I speak from my own experience.

          • Kavita says:

            Frank, according to your reference, what I received is Madhu is conveying that all over the world & not only in India, there is always a dominating male energy and not always a submissive female energy. And for her, that most dominating energy is the rapist/violence – this is my inference.

  22. shantam prem says:

    “The way the big dream I had, when entering the Sannyas realms, has been crushed, has been utterly painful; a dream that in a meditative Sangha around Osho I would be spared of rotten chauvinism and also violence (including heavy abuse)”

    Very rarely someone expresses the anguish of being closer to Osho and his people. Under the soothing words of patriarch much exploitation and high-headedness has taken place.

    Howsoever I miss the ashram, deep down I know it was supposed to die prematurely. If someone takes substance with bio apple juice, does it mean it won’t be counted as substance abuse?

    Not for its titiliating effect or condemning someone in particular, if Madhu takes the courage to explain the reasons behind the disappoitments, it can be one more step towards healing the past.

    From the young age, it is not difficult to imagine, Madhu must be one young gorgeous Ma in the prime of her youth, when she became part of Osho collective head-on.

    • satyadeva says:

      Shantam is heartened to find someone whom he sees as a fellow-sufferer, a fellow-victim of ‘Sannyas Evil’.

      Yet another misconception though, as here, in all probability, he’s more part of the problem than the solution.

      • shantam prem says:

        You are full of idiocy and prejudiced mind, Satyadeva. If you have a little eyes to look at the world around, people who stand for some cause worthy of fight are not the first-hand sufferers.

        One requires some kind of inner and outer richness to stay for a cause worthy for their interest.

        • satyadeva says:

          Your response is incomprehensible, irrelevant rubbish. Get to the point, be specific, you blustering, self-deluding nincompoop.

          Clearly, you joined Sannyas mainly for the so-called ‘free’ sex. So, you’re part of the ‘problem’, ok?!

  23. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Yes, Frank,
    I already saw you preparing your reaction in progress and you clearly don´t belong to the hypocrisy part of the tribe, concerning matters of misuse and abuse, but are indeed in your way having been yourself a target of such.

    However, your way to deal with that on this website, I experience more than less with very little exceptions as vomiting into a garbage container or pissing off others – and also the way I described it and complained about in my former post.

    I again repeat that I speak with the authority of my experiences; it’s not something I have to discover in books or not even in documentaries of other female victims of heavy abuse and perpetration and/or simply very bad taste, being called ´humour´sometimes.

    (That’s what the Moderators called “Madhu´s stance”, which had been questioned).

    The latter, by the way, are NOT editing heavy male bullying bullshit on this website and this is my experience too – this more than the last years.

    Sometimes, when I am quite discouraged, I scroll and read former and even again former posts and realize that some habits and role-takings are pretty much stuck.

    So, Frank, I am NOT surprised reading your reaction and also by distorting my original text to do so.

    However, also I am remembering having been touched very deeply, not long time ago, when meeting your pain unmasked in a long and very honest contribution to another thread and to another issue.

    You, Frank, got there then support by Lokesh, the best way possible on a website. And I got the chance to see behind the curtains or masquerades.
    And have been still.

    The point I referred to in this issue in this thread is though not disappearing by simply getting a reactionary hit of yours and by distorting my original text.

    Otherwise, I am open to hear and read YOUR story (stories), Frank, but take care not to mix it up, like you did!

    Madhu

    • frank says:

      Madhu,
      I have not misrepresented you, I quoted you. You wrote:
      “So, especially on this very male-oriented website here, which includes facing
      a lot of sexism and open contempt about female expression; in expressed fantasies, fantasies indulging in hardcore violence concerning sex-life in general.”

      Examples, please.

  24. shantam prem says:

    The psychology of people like Satyadeva also amuses me, as one know a bit about this highly secretive man who is not hesitant to peep into the psychological make-up of other people.

    From my side, I am one such person if I go to other masters I won´t feel like willing to write for my ex- master´s work. Why to ask for the price of rice in a village you are not living any more?

    I wish to communicate about Osho with people who have invested their life into. Getting the dividend or losing the basic investment is not a theme, sincerity of the purpose is.

    Also, I wonder why SD has not found some virtual group with people like him, singing and writing praiseful prose about Ramana, Barry Long, Meera, Eckhart Tolle, Moji and others.

    One of the reasons can be, followers of others may not have interesting life stories and therefore ways of expression.

    • satyadeva says:

      You’re not ‘amused’ at all, Shantam, you’re simply finding another way to excuse yourself for being unable to find a proper answer, so as not to feel too humiliated.

      As I said, you’re the prime exponent here of avoiding difficult issues, usually, of course, by deliberately ignoring them, like an utterly thick, self-deluding dick-head (perhaps a most appropriate term?!).

      If that’s a measure of how you carried on your private life, then no wonder you’re like a ‘lost soul’, stranded, far from home (in all senses of the term), out on a limb over there in Germany.

  25. shantam prem says:

    Today is the day at Sannyasnews about Madhu´sassertive and heart-felt writing.
    She is the writer of the day.

    • satyadeva says:

      Yes, Shantam, together with your own part in what she’s highlighting?

      Just as westerners tend to be totally mesmerised by ‘the mysterious East’, so easterners tend to be likewise totally seduced by what one might term the ‘western’ sexual free-for-all.

      Don’t try to slip and slide your way out (!), please, I know you’re in there!

  26. shantam prem says:

    SD, I am quite sure about little etiquettes which one needs to follow in the dialogues and discussion: the willingness to be open and not hiding behind faceless facades.

    At least I don´t discuss with people who give the impression they know the answers already, moreover hide their presence behind Hijab. Not my kind of people.

    So please, don´t waste my energy by pointing discussion at me. Without the conditions met, I will ignore your posts.

    • satyadeva says:

      “SD, I am quite sure about little etiquettes which one needs to follow in the dialogues and discussion: the willingness to be open and not hiding behind faceless facades.”

      Oh, really? I thought you were rather keen on ‘invisible people’ – you know, the scores of unseen ones who hang on every piece of utter nonsense you perpetrate at SN.

      You’re such a complete tosser, Shantam, that you can’t see what’s blindingly obvious, ie that you are incapable of making a half-decent response, because – although you’ll never admit as much, even to yourself – you know anything you can say is going to be an unconvincing rationalisation, aka sheer bullshit, aka a lie.

      So, total twat that you are, you just run away. Good riddance.

  27. shantam prem says:

    There is one Satya Deva at facebook-

  28. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    “Over here in western Europe, it’s really nothing out of the ordinary to hear or read such detailed statements of anger and pain, either for public or purely personal consumption, it’s ‘par for the course’, as it were.” (Satyadeva)

    Yes, that´s true, Satyadeva, ” ‘par for the course´, as it WERE”.

    Your psychiatric diagnosis and kind of comments to a statement is – in all eloquence – more than common here in these areas; medications of all kinds available and recommended, to ease some pain.

    The small social and cultural ´gaps’ happening in former decades, which opened for a chance of better understanding and/or going for a change deserving this word, closed again.

    However, in the world of entertainment, we have indeed spots and places in abundance where females are free to perform like n a kind of ´freak show´; free to enter as female performers and/or auditories. (MOD: auditories?)

    Not to speak about the innumerable offers on the wellness and therapeutic market, where – not rarely – one can find male seminar leaders who explain then what female issues in inter-sexual affairs are all about, and how to solve it (understand it all).

    As you are doing it here.

    This special UK website though is loaded with resentment against female Sannyas protagonists (some sad and saddening ´celebrities´) in Commune Affairs and I find it more than timely to remind some of you buddies here that not only male sannyasins suffered in that time; and have been and are suffering male acts of vengeance camouflaged as ´expert’ debate, ´elite clubbings´.

    It took indeed courage to write what I have written on the issue of abuse and perpetrators issues here at this UK virtual chat-spot.

    Overcoming not only my memories of ´Lady Fresh´ (MOD: WHO?) as well as the loads of contempt I received in the first months of my contributing here, including the stuff Lokesh even wrote in a private email then to me, with the recommendation just to fuck off from the open chat.

    So I have been surprised indeed and have enjoyed Tan´s and Kavita´s responses.

    And maybe, all in all, there can happen little ´winds of change’?
    Climate changes?
    Who knows….?

    Madhu

    • satyadeva says:

      Ok, Madhu (and Tan) if you say “it took courage” to write your previous post, point accepted.

      Although, as I said, it’s also true that this is far from the first time I and others have come across such an outpouring of female anger and pain, so it’s not exactly ‘new’ or even particularly ‘surprising’.

      For instance, I imagine every male has at some time(s) been at the receiving end of similar diatribes from their partner(s), where the intensity of the woman’s rage seems to express the pent-up historical grief of the female sex, not only her individual slice of that pain.

      I can get that, in the light of such a vast burden, my suggesting you are lonely, isolated, missing love and therefore unhappy might perhaps sound somewhat simplistic, even patronising, an inadequate description of your situation, although is it not also true and does it not ‘colour’ your perceptions, intensifying your anger at ‘the world’, specifically at men, and even at Sannyas, including contributors at Sannyas News?

      Regarding Sannyas, wasn’t it incredibly, childishly naïve to imagine everything was going to be fine there, that it would be a sort of ‘escape’ from the wicked, oppressive outside world, the ‘perfect family’ most of us had never had? As I said, our generation inherited the opportunity to heal or attempt to heal enormous, deep-rooted psychic wounds, but these don’t necessarily disappear ‘just like that’, in many cases not even in a whole lifetime (that I know from my own experience).

      And, just a couple of thoughts:
      As an already particularly vulnerable person, perhaps you were further ‘damaged’ by the Sannyas ‘sexual free-for-all’? Did you simply enjoy that or did it ultimately not suit you? Do you include all that as an instance of ‘male oppression’?

      Along with any ‘therapy abuse’, perhaps? Re which, this week I heard from a most reliable source that the likes of Teertha (Paul Lowe) and Somendra (Michael Barnett) were extremely heavily criticised by many in the Human Potential Movement (eg via their magazine, ‘Self and Society’), which cited “hundreds” of complaints of psycho-sexual abuse in the name of ‘spiritual therapy’, ‘Sannyas therapy’ (and, of course, of Osho).

      • Arpana says:

        One of the more difficult issues to come to terms with as a sannyasin is learning that some people with sannyas names have to be kept at a distance. I struggled with that for a long time and felt defensive for years because I wasn’t into every one who was connected to Osho (talk about misery-making expectations).

        Have met some ratbags amongst people with sannyas names and some really good eggs, whom I am happy to have become involved with, men and women; and fortunately, never anyone whom I see as seriously bad news, although a few who didn’t take kindly to my boundary-setting behaviour.

        I have learned to draw lines in the sand, set boundaries, live mostly somewhere between aggression and submission because of my dealings with individuals, male and female, with sannyas names, and long ago got past the idea we were all going to be bosom buddies, which pretty everybody appears to go through in the early days of Sannyas, and in my view many remain stuck there and quit because they cannot resolve the problem of their unrecognised expectations.

        Sannyas in my view is only collective in the beginning. If we keep working on ourselves the road is travelled more and more in solitude, not absolutely, but certainly more and more.

        • prem martyn says:

          Gotta say that’s a jolly decent post and useful for any newbies experiencing Sannyas, too.

          Human nature given permission is much more capable to resolve its vicissitudes, in creating human beings and treasured experience, than permission alone and being divorced from others do.

          Being valued, valuable and valuing is always full of mutual recognising permission, but not as an intention to crave ambitious growth through temporary, if even insightful, peer groupism, unless that association has a more deliberate intent than one’s own growth per se. By growth is meant the ability to flourish.

  29. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Re your just a couple of your thoughts, Satyadeva:

    I did not join the Sannyas sangha, attracted – as you put it – by ´ sexual freedom´, nor for enjoying a drug-free zone for drug experiments in an exotic surrounding.

    Neither I had much of what you defined ´childish expectations` in terms of a ´celestial ready made utopia´ just ´waiting for me´.

    True may be that I have been indeed ´mesmerized´, as you liked to put it, by a Presence, a Being, like this Master and a climate which, how I see it up to today, has been unique in my eyes and heart – .

    And – at least for a time being – I felt like connected in a venture to live up to an ´Intelligence of the Heart´ and the latter not in terms of being a lonely-wolf woman or a rebellious spirit to be singularly so easily crushed. As I had experienced it already in professional psycho-social works and projects.

    Have been in my end of twenties´when I came in touch with Osho´s ´orange people’, long ago, His books, the climate of celebration in it all.
    So-called ´freedom´ experiments had left me pretty unfulfilled. Also on a personal level. Before Sannyas.

    There was truly something missing here in the West for me, and although it is missing up to now, I would say we are all by now in quite another historical phase, by globalization on all measures and great and challenging changes. Also on very personal levels.

    Changes of growing anonymity in communication, facing total insecurity of knowing whom you reach (if at all) with your words or sometimes even gestures, when you meet in the body.

    I don´t know just now who expressed some of this, maybe Parmartha (?), who reminded us all that in times of the Master Living, all has been in constant change (also some rituals) or ways to be together;
    the Silent Sitting together though has been a reliable frame. Always.

    I never felt it easy to relate to your contributions, Satyadeva, although your eloquence has been mostly quite convincing.

    I do not look out for a therapist and expert here, I look out for friends and fellow-travellers.

    And I am not as shortsighted as you may be presuming, to be on a
    hardcore ´feminist´ trail, as also such would not at all go together with an `Intelligence of the Heart´.

    I am as much shocked when male participants abuse each other verbally or are verbally violent against each other as I am shocked when this kind of energy is showing up towards a female contributor (and those are rare). And all that kind of catharthing in an OPEN Sannyas chat space.
    Open for pretty much anybody who is able to log in…

    There are other websites to serve some porn and violent habits, aren´t there? The so called Inter-Net is full of rubbish. In abundance.

    True is, Satyadeva, that I feel deprived of feedback relating with former Sannyas friends.

    True is also that some of the issues and threads being opened up here in this UK Area amongst sannyasin and friends are touching me inside.

    And true is that I don´t chat elsewhere about such and have no Facebook or other account and also don´t want to.

    The latter refusal also makes me somewhat quite isolated. That´s the way it is. Meanwhile.

    Madhu

    • satyadeva says:

      “Intelligence of the Heart” – sounds wonderful, but isn’t that just another description of Love?

      I’m not at all sure an online blog, Sannyas-oriented or not, is the ideal place to expect such treasure…

      Sure, ‘bits and pieces’, here and there…but perhaps not enough to feed an isolated, lonely, stressed-out heart starved of in-the-flesh friendship and mutual care….

  30. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    ´“Intelligence of the Heart” – sounds wonderful, but isn’t that just another description of Love?´

    Yes, Satyadeva, and there are more easy places than an online blog chat . true.

    But there is no ´ideal’ place for such. Although seemingly more ´easy’ places or situations.
    But any place is asking for essential quality. And if an important quality is missing of interrelating, why not name it?

    And give it a try.
    Even online-here.

    Not perfect.
    Just a reminder – for myself as well – as maybe, to others.

    Madhu

  31. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Sorry, Arpana,
    I don´t know how to manage to find the right loop (like Frank).

    But I have just seen a little feature here in 3 Sat tv about Terry Prachett´s departure as about the gift his living has been, and is. More than a `Sir`.

    Big, long Hug on the virtual line to you as to others (whom it may concern).

    And it is always difficult to say goodbye, isn´t it?

    And to ´just´ feel grateful for the many gifts given, keeping the gifts given inside alive as best as possible.

    Nobody replaceable. Not you, not him, not anybody.

    Madhu

  32. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Another P.S:
    A quote for Arpana:

    “I find myself raging too: at the injustice that deprives us of – what? Another 20 or 30 books? Another shelf-full of ideas and glorious phrases and old friends and new, of stories in which people do what they really do best, which is use their heads to get themselves out of the trouble they got into by not thinking?

    Another book or two of journalism and agitprop? But truly, the loss of these things does not anger me as it should. It saddens me, but I, who have seen some of them being built close-up, understand that any Terry Pratchett book is a small miracle, and we already have more than might be reasonable, and it does not behoove any of us to be greedy.

    I rage at the imminent loss of my friend. And I think, “What would Terry do with this anger?” Then I pick up my pen, and I start to write.”

    Neil Gaiman, close friend of Terry Pratchett, end of the year 2O14.

  33. shantam prem says:

    People who gave their youth, their profession, their life for Osho´s vision of Commune are living a solitary existence. Those who left their countries and families are being supported in their autumn years by the same countries and same families, they were thinking out of date.

    No wonder, as a sign of remorse, as a sign of repentance, few of these people are reverting back to their original names; their Christian names…

    I wonder, how long sad reality will be covered by the glossy paper of O books.

    • satyadeva says:

      Shantam drones on, complaining yet again, lamenting his own self-created plight, while comforting himself with the delusion that his is a fate shared by many.

  34. shantam prem says:

    A story dedicated to bulls who shit the wisdom:

    As it happens in the working environment, one young girl was sexually and emotionally abused by her boss, just like in Geetika Sharma and Gopal Kanda case. She was feeling suicidal.

    By chance she came across a wise meditative man who convinced her to go on living. He even showed her silver lining in the dark clouds:
    “You can still consider yourself lucky. The boss was taking you to the most expensive hotels and on foreign trips. Could you afford that without him?
    And think, there are women who are raped in the middle of the roads in the moving cars. You were always on the comfortable beds.”
    The meditative wise guy even told her, “Past is no more. Be Here and Now.”

    Working on oneself should be the priority!