East and West: A False Dichotomy

WE ARE ALL THE SAME:

Divisions between Indian and western sannyasins: time to say goodbye

One is not sure when people began talking about Osho’s “Indian Sannyasins” and “Western sannyasins”. In 1974 when arriving in Poona for the first time, I dont remember it at all. I consider the talk of such a dichotomy largely began after Osho died, but am happy to be corrected.

imagesAn International Commune

Of course before 1970 most of Osho’s talks were in the Hindi language.  At first Jains, but then the wider spectrum of those from all Indian religions came to see him. Many came and left, but so was the case later with Europeans.

After 1970 Osho started speaking by equal measure in English and Hindi,  and many people came from Europe. During the meditation camps Osho talked in Hindi and English alternatively. Osho talked of his interests like tantra and living outside of mainstream society  – subjects not so palatable to the Indian consciousness at the time, but it certainly did not drive all Indians away.

By the year 1974 sannyasins from other countries began to outnumber Indian sannyasins in the Pune commune, but there never seemed to be any debar to what I perceived and experienced as an “International” commune, and that felt just right. And also that was how Osho as I recall described it.  By the year 1980 the number of  sannyasins from abroad reached around 90% of  visitors to the Pune commune.  Many Indian lay sannyasins were not at all concerned with these changes. Their relations with  all other sannyasins was loving and harmonious.  Indian sannyasins still occupied the main administrative positions, including Osho’s then Secretary,  and this continued even when Osho was in America between 1981 and 1985.

I still continue until today to see in many quarters individual relations between Indian sannyaisns and those from abroad that have all the outstanding hallmarks of equality and respect. One hopes that at the grass roots this continues to grow.

Where the politics of talking about Osho’s “Indian” sannyasins being separate from the rest of the International commune arose, – well it’s all nonsense, and where finally politics needs to be ditched.  The nation state is just a myth, we are all world citizens, and if Osho would have had his way, passports would have disappeared long ago.

Parmartha

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31 Responses to East and West: A False Dichotomy

  1. shantam prem says:

    As long as the ringleader is in the circus there is no dichotomy, lions and the elephants can walk together, can even take the food together.But yes, as long as ringleader is in the circus and has the whip in the hand!

    Parmartha, when someone is close to 70´s it becomes almost impossible to doubt one´s own cherished beliefs. There are many rosy pictures in your brain. Can you accept the fact, Osho died or left the body on 19th January 1990? After that day, he has not given any discourse!

    Realities change when charismatic leaders die and there are no replacements.

  2. simond says:

    Rather than see that there is a division between western or Indian sannyasins, I’d suggest that there is no such thing as a sannyasin today. It’s an outdated notion, with its roots primarily in India, and introduced to the West by teachers of the East, and in particular by Osho.

    He used this tradition of the sannyasin as a means both to reach and introduce his teaching to fellow-Indians and eventually to westerners. Osho acted as the master or guide and we were the seekers, devotees, disciples or students. We ‘followed’ him, we were instructed by him; we listened and learned from him. The whole master – disciple relationship was a means, not the end. The ‘destination ‘ was to realise we no longer needed a master anymore.

    Furthermore, the notion of the sannyasin as I understood it was always only relevant when the master was alive. After the death of the master, unless we enter the realm of a fanciful imagination, the relationship is ended.

    Of course, for others, the relationship between master and disciple, as well as the notion of the sannyasin, has continued, developed and matured, perhaps further than I had could ever envisage. Each to his own. It is outside of my experience.

    The division between West and East within the Sannyas movement, and in particular the debates on this forum, reflect to me the varying understanding between the two sides about who and what Osho’s teaching is truly about. It highlights a difference in approach that Osho himself recognised and was unable to solve. The eastern approach is far more reverential and passive. The western far less so, we don’t turn our gurus into gods.

    I would add that this difference in approach is not purely based on whether the individual is originally from the East or West. The eastern approach can exist in a western body and vice-versa.

    From the recent correspondence it is a real division and one doesn’t look like it either needs to be or can be ‘solved’. It’s simply a different way of looking at life.

    For me, there is no real sannyasin movement, and there never truly was. When Osho spoke of some collective understanding or commune, it was a simplistic approach, naive even. We may share an understanding, love and laugh together, we may have profound physical or psychic meetings but we are using our imagination (as powerful as this is) if we believe ourselves to be part of any movement at all.

  3. samarpan says:

    Simond: “I’d suggest that there is no such thing as a sannyasin today.”

    Osho dissolved into Existence and is now more accessible than ever (this is not a question of imagination). Why should Osho leaving the body change anything? Osho is not our father. Osho is not our babysitter.

    Osho is more a midwife. Sannyas initiations are spiritual births, still happening around the world. Sannyas is just that: an initiation. A beginning. A spiritual birthing. No one starts worshiping and following their midwife. Certainly no one thinks their midwife is ‘perfect’ or ‘infallible’. But one can feel a lifelong appreciation for a midwife, even without a physical relationship.

    If there is no more sannyasin movement, then how to explain the week-long to three week-long meditation camps still ongoing around the world? The Sannyas magazines with contributions written by sannyasins? The Osho centres around the world? There are sannyasins and they are in movement.

    If there are no more sannyasins, how to explain the Osho Festivals? Like the one in Portugal, 2-5 July, 2015?

    If there are no more sannyasins, then how to explain the Osho Fest celebrating the 25th Anniversary of Osho’s Mahaparinirvana? Like the one in San Diego, California, USA, Oct. 29 thru Nov. 2, 2015? There will be Music Group with live music featuring Milarepa & The One Sky Band, Osho Zen Tarot, Yoga and Bodywork, a 30 year Rajneeshpuram reunion, Sannyas celebrations, lots of hugs and laughter, etc. with healthy representation of both eastern and western sannyasins.

    Here is more evidence of Osho neo-sannyasins:
    http://www.sannyas.org/index.php?title=Welcome_to_the_Sannyas_Wiki

    Sannyas is alive and well. The following is just as true in 2015 as it was 1980:

    “Around Buddha there were only Indians, around Jesus there were only Jews, around Mohammed there were only Mohammedans. Around me there are all kinds of people – theists, atheists, materialists, spiritualists, Catholics, Communists, Jainas, Jews, Italians, Indians, Germans – all kinds of people, and they have all developed different sides of humanity. No country has developed the whole human being, only partial human beings. We can create the whole human being, multi-dimensional, immensely rich, rooted in the earth and yet longing for the stars.”

    Osho, ‘Come, Come, Yet Again Come’, Chapter #12

    • simond says:

      Samarpan,
      Of course there are social events, festivals and meditation camps under the banner of Sannyas all over the world.

      The movement may indeed be growing in numbers, or not, with new initiates, as you describe.

      I may be quite wrong but I sense these initiates are primarily from the East, not many westerners are taking Sannyas. That’s not to say that the young in the West aren’t interested in Osho, but they don’t largely wish to be apart of a movement or religion. He’s a historical figure, useful as a source of information, like many other teachers.

      As far as I see it, some but not all these events indicate the growth of a new religion; with priests like Arun and codes of behaviour (compulsory references to love and laughter, for example).

      Group activities of almost all kinds tend to become tribal and focused on the needs of the group, and not the individual. This was always a contradiction of Sannyas.

      I don’t doubt the value of the shared experiences of the collective, the highs, the joy, the feelings of lack of separation. In many ways we all wish to be part of a group, we are social creatures after all. We all wish to be loved, and to feel love. These are fundamental needs.

      My point isn’t that there is anything wrong with all this.

      It is just that any movement or collective has within it the latent power and tendency for hypocrisy, corruption and violence associated with all religion.

  4. Kavita says:

    Frankly, for me I was introduced to westerners very early in my life, due to a part of our family being exposed to the West, one of my paternal aunts was married to a German, so I was never taught to differentiate. To me, we were all one big family, which I think was a very harmonising factor for the family. Also, I had & have some very close friends who had western parents but were born & brought up in India so I wholeheartedly know for myself that this divide is a cause of conditioning.

    When I came to the Osho’s International Commune & saw the east-west divide it was a cultural shock for me. I did make some very deep friendships with a few westerners as well as other eastern countries in the commune, and of course when I heard & read Osho about his encouragement of east-west mingling I could relate to it very clearly .

    Of course, what happened/happens cannot be summed up as we are part of such a big collective, I guess.

  5. shantam prem says:

    Very thought-provoking post from Simond. I hope some devotee type holds the bull by his horns. Will be quite a difficult task! Maybe some regular writer at Oshonews can deal with Simond´s post.

    One can counter the hard facts with flowery poetry. For example’s sake:
    “Sannyas is that longing in human heart which is beyond time and space. It was always, it will be always. Only expressions change.”

    One sentence I will really like to take care. It shows the personality of Simond:
    “For me, there is no real sannyasin movement, and there never truly was.”

    If you have not bought the shares of Tesco, will it affect whether it becomes blue chip or penny shares company? Will the milk smell other if you buy in Aldi?

    It is clear Simond has never invested his energy, time, passion and money in the product developed by Osho called Sannyas. Maybe he can tell how many days he has spent around Osho? Did he leave his job or profession to take full-time interest in Sannyas?

    For me, Sannyas was truly a new spiritual movement. After founder´s demise it went very fast to extinction, as far as mainstream West is concerned.

    If one looks at the videos of Osho´s last months, he has deep satisfaction in his words. Something similar still rings in my ears:
    ” I am the most blessed master who has found his people from around the world. Buddha´s disciples were only from a small area called Bihar. Jesus had only 12 illiterate people around.”

    Surely mathematics says, “Sannyas movement will spread like paypal, airbnb or uber.”

    To deny the existence of Sannyas and its noble intentions is very mean.

  6. Lokesh says:

    An interesting thread.

    El Chudo obviously takes everything Osho says as God’s honest truth, which it is not. Particularly in relation to biblical references. Osho was never too hot on Jesus, although in my opinion ‘The Mustard Seed’ is a very good book. Nonetheless, Osho’s biblical research was not on a par with, say, what he knew about Buddha.

    Take Osho’s statement about the twelve disciples. It is misleading. “Jesus had only 12 illiterate people around.” As if to say being educated to some degree is relevant to the enlightened state. I do not believe that to be true. Furthermore, those 12 illiterate people went through a massive transformation due to spending time with Christ and went on, after his cruxifixion, to do much in terms of spreading the good news.

    I believe that is an important point that Osho does not address. Why? Because it did not serve his purposes at the time. From time to time Osho buttered up his people…the effect being that it made one feel great to be part of it, special, the chosen ones etc. Whether any of it was true or not is debatable.

    Sammy toes the party line along the lines of “Osho dissolved into Existence and is now more accessible than ever (this is not a question of imagination).”
    Imagination is a powerful force. How can Sammy be sure his beliefs are unfettered by imagination – a very rare occurence indeed?

    The ways of the mind are as infinite as grains of sand on a beach…Yes, and I prefer the wisdom of insecurity as opposed to the security of unfounded belief. It is a very personal matter, but I doubt Sammy really knows what he is really talking about…all fired up with enthusiasm and undoubtedly taking on board certain exciting ideas that he does not really understand existentially, sounds about right.

    Simond coming away with some statements that sound good enough but certainly provide fuel for debate, such as, “Furthermore, the notion of the sannyasin as I understood it was always only relevant when the master was alive.” This sounds like nonsense to me, both on traditional levels and in relation to Osho’s neo-Sannyas.

    Simond ventures into the realm of the preposterous by saying thefollowing: “For me, there is no real sannyasin movement, and there never truly was.” The first part is debatable, the second is nonsense. Osho’s Sannyas was a very real movement and will be remembered as such historically, although it won’t be seen in an entirely positive light, to say the least.
    Kavita supplies us with a down-to-earth, feminine perspective. I appreciate that. Sweet.

    • avinashi says:

      “!esus had only 12 illiterate people around. As if to say being educated to some degree is relevant to the enlightened state.”

      All above stuff is said by Osho himself. A mere Osho student cannot have this much understanding. But Lokesh is a good student after all.

      • Lokesh says:

        I wonder if those 12 illiterate people Osho was referring to also spoke about stuff and stuff like that. Did Osho actually say all that stuff? I wonder about some of the stuff people write on SN.

  7. frank says:

    Sannyasins are people. People disagree, argue, have fights. Difference is the cause. That’s life, chaps and chapesses…

    When it comes to ‘enlightenment’ and ‘religion’, you can forget all yer “we all love each other” nonsense and get yer bovver-boots on…

    Remember the enlightened ones themselves are the biggest bunch of bitchy scrappers you can find and their playground tactics were all hair-pulling and scratching…

    Osho on Krishnamurti: “He is a solo flute to my orchestra. Wasted his life.”
    Krishnamurti on Osho: “He has lost his enlightenment and become criminal.”
    UG Krishnamurti on Osho: “The greatest pimp of all time.”
    Osho on UG: “Pah. He is just ordinary.”
    UG on J. krishnamurti: “The greatest fraud of 20th century.”

    And remember “Muktananda Sewage Lagoon” and all the rest, etc., etc., etc?

    Get real!

  8. shantam prem says:

    Investing energy into Indian Masters project is similar to investing in the share trading. When everyone starts buying, it is the time to sell. Lokesh, Simond and Co. have mastered this art.

  9. shantam prem says:

    Indian sannyasins still occupied the main administrative positions, including Osho’s then Secretary, and this continued even when Osho was in America between 1981 and 1985.

    Parmartha, what happened after 1985? During these 30 years, much has changed in the world of Osho, in world in general. 30 years is a long time for a human being.

    I really wish someone like you will look at the history of these 30 years in dispassionate way, as journalist looks at the story, as meditator looks at the inner movie without taking sides.

    I have heard, truth liberates. It must be truth and not heresay.

  10. Parmartha says:

    The tradition of being a wandering person throwing oneself into the arms of God for care and direction was a western, as well as an eastern tradition. Those western mystics and friars always existed under some name or other. In the West, climate played its part – so monasteries or hermitages played a greater part for shelter. For a sannyasin living in India this was not a problem – and the three day rule of only living in one place for three days was easy to accede to, as to rest under the open sky in a warm climate was a simple matter.

    So the call to the spiritual homeless life was a human call, not defined to one time, place or nationality.

    An Osho neo-sannyasin, which I still call myself, was an update on the old concept – Osho did not like poverty, chastity or obedience! But it is a life, when lived best, without personal forward planning, and just being guided by God through Osho.

    Hence partly why I started this string – an Osho sannyasin has the same bone and marrow which transcends any nationality. And that is what I always heard, and felt from Osho too, in his dealings with all of us.

    This way of life is not dependent, as Shantam and others seem to think, on the Master being alive.

    • Arpana says:

      I wrote to Bhagwan about something or other, when at the ashram; and he wrote back, or someone else wrote the message he dictated, “Wherever you are, put your total energy.”

      That message has always been with me.

      • Lokesh says:

        Arps, perhaps Osho never actually read your letter and it was perhaps Laxmi who replied, using a list of handy sayings tailor-made to your requirements.

        I once met a crazy baba on the Goa ferry, if I remember correctly the ship was named Shakti Konkin. I had ingested a powerful psychedelic and sat on the deck staring intensely at the setting sun.

        The baba asks me, “What are you lookng so worred about?” I replied defensivly, “I am not worried. I am just thinking.” The baba chuckled and said, “Same thing.”

        That message has always been with me. I don’t believe it is who says it to you that counts, but rather your openess and receptivity to hear what you need to hear in a given moment.

        • Arpana says:

          I have thought of that, but it still stayed with me, and I definitely agree with your last two lines.

          (Snatches of conversation overheard in supermarket checkout lines have led to moments of understanding).

          Wherever is the key word, rather than here in this special place.

          ,

    • shantam prem says:

      Parmartha, this piece I have read now third time. Leaves some kind of taste in the brain nerves.

      I wonder why you spoiled the mystery by dragging my name unnecessarily.

      • Lokesh says:

        Chudo has a brain. I do not believe it.

        • shantam prem says:

          You are allowed to say, Lokesh, but not Arpana!Same words spoken by different people create different vibrations. When Osho talks about meditation, they inspire. When the bookworms speak, one gets the desire to watch porn!
          Authenticity matters.

          I hope you will enjoy the non-braininess biryani, cooked with experience, wisdom and borrowed knowledge!

  11. prem martyn says:

    If I had not brought Sannyas home to create a volcano amongst my so-called family, there would have been only utter misery and mindfucking mundanity. For me, I’m sure of it now more than ever.

    As it is my Dad recognised my urgency after I chased him round to the neighbours to get him to acknowledge and comment on family affairs that had never seen the light of day, despite there being acres of misery in the walls. All that was aeons ago on my return from Pune. He died about a year later. Don’t wait to commit is the message there from Osho, don’t let things drift if people mean something to you. You know about tommorrow?

    Sure, we say/know loads of shit went down in Sannyas, and the years have mutated us all, but there is nothing like being given such tools of the relating trade that Osho gave me. That’s not without reservations, but it is total, it’s a permission that includes everything you put in the pot.

    East meets West? I have no idea of what or where people look these days for their reality checking, but even the relatively tiny bit of intensity I exposed myself too has stayed or revealed my propensity for something bigger than me, both within and without. East and West with noise to disturb the neighbours a la Crete if necessary. Ya-bloody hoo. Especially in festering England.

    I cannot scientifically give you cause and effect.But nothing that I have heard of or been invited to had such immersion as the experiment around Osho’s energy that was West-East and you/me.

    For example, me and others here won’t have a single thing in common about wanting to connect with each other directly, but we move around notions albeit in vague tortuous writing far removed in place and time from something that for other people seems insane. Yet we do it with a degree of tenacity and vindication and self-assurance, that asks to be known by oneself if no one else.

    If this occurs easily with ready made addresses elsewhere, great. That it occurs with great difficulty even amongst sannyasins, doesn’t surprise me. But it does require the so-called balls on the table at some point.Living together tried to open the windows and listening to him and participating together did even more on the erotic unzipped emotional front.

    But like everything else, you had to have been there. It may not be unique but it is absolutely special, even with rose-coloured shades on.

    I don’t attempt to universalise this. It’s what I’m writing tonight for my own sake. If it meets another, great. But it’s not a message legacy thing.

    I saw a sign today in a cafe bookshop which read something like, “It’s not really love if you aren’t mad in it”.

    And am reminded of another one that was aerosoled on the a medieval wall in southern Italy just last year which grabbed me, to make me realise there are actually souls out there , yearning, asking, dancing, smooching with the same taste on their lips that we all have had – maybe Plotinus’ descendant wrote it…

    It simply said…(see in the photo from Benevento, Italy).

    I’m quite heavily moderated here for one reason or another, and I don’t wish to be exemplary in my posts, so please don’t ask me for a discussion on this if this actually gets through on blog. It’s just what comes tonight.

    Thanks.

    (MOD:MARTYN, ALL HERE ARE TREATED THE SAME, MAINLY ACCORDING TO RELEVANCE TO TOPIC, YOU ARE NOT A ‘SPECIAL CASE’ – ALTHOUGH YOU TEND TO SUBMIT A LOT MORE OFF-TOPIC POSTS THAN ANYONE ELSE!).

  12. frank says:

    “some kind of taste in the brain nerves”?
    Oh dear.
    Medication time!

    • shantam prem says:

      Other than the last sentence, Parmartha´s post was curry for the brainy nerves!

      Frank, Sir, thanks for reminding me for medication. Yesterday I missed my high blood pressure tablet.

  13. shantam prem says:

    East and West: A False Dichotomy
    Opinions can vary.

    Here I want to share one photo, just received.
    I hope photo will convey something fitting to the string. It will surely provoke some thought.

  14. Kavita says:

    ”For example, me and others here won’t have a single thing in common about wanting to connect with each other directly, but we move around notions albeit in vague tortuous writing far removed in place and time from something that for other people seems insane. Yet we do it with a degree of tenacity and vindication and self-assurance, that asks to be known by oneself if no one else.”

    I also wonder about this many times .

  15. Kavita says:

    Yes, Marty, so agree with you; right now I am not yet done!

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