UK Sannyasin makes Success of Mindfulness Enterprise

 

MEDICATION TO MEDITATION:  AND THE OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH MINDFULNESS

 by Swami Vivek (John Knap)

‘Medication to Meditation’ was the first of Osho’s books that I read, around 2002. It made a profound effect on me, and I have made it my campaigning slogan. Furthermore, mindfulness meditation has now been checked for cost effectiveness and approved as an 8 week course called ‘Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy,’ by the UK government’s National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE)

 

This is the gold standard of evidence in the UK, and means that this course can be paid for from taxation in the NHS, and patients have the statutory right to it under the NHS Constitution – if their doctor says it is clinically appropriate.  It is also classed as a talking therapy under the Improving Access to Psychological Therapies (IAPT) programme, which in 2006 was introduced to ‘end the Prozac nation,’ with Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (CBT)

 

However, antidepressant prescribing has since doubled from 30-60 million monthly prescriptions pa, and 5 million UK patients are on them, despite the evidence that they don’t work to cure depression. Virtually all these patients are statutorily entitled to be offered a MBCT course, which is 100 times more cost effective than one to one Cognitive Behaviour Therapy,  as 15-20 patients can be trained by one or two facilitators, and Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy is effective for 2 out of 3 patients, whereas CBT is only effective for 1 in 10.

 

In March 2012 the Health and Social Care Act was given Royal assent, which devolved £65 million to “The British NeuroPsychiatry Association”.    It also established Health and Wellbeing Boards (HWB) in every council, to whom the Care Commissioning Groups are accountable.

 

There is now a market opportunity for experienced meditators to teach the 8 week MBCT course to patients on GP referral. I have set up a company called the Social Enterprise Complementary Therapy Company (SECTCo) which runs a meditation centre at 3, Boundary Rd Hove BN3 4EH (near Portslade station, 4 miles west of Brighton) with the following programme, for donations.

Meditation Time Days available
Dynamic 8-9am Every day
MBCT course 930-12 Every Monday and Tuesday
MBCT facilitators course 930-12 Every Thursday
Kundalini 12-1pm Monday, Tuesday and Thursday
Family constellations and other meditations 2-5pm Monday, Tuesday and Thursday
Family constellation groups 10am-5pm Every 4th Sunday of the month

We are seeking public funding by contract from the CCG and HWB to provide these meditations on GP voucher prescription. I would be pleased to hear from anyone interested. For further details see www.sectco.org.uk, and my papers on section 9 of www.reginaldkapp.org, or contact me Vivek (John Kapp), 22, Saxon Rd Hove BN3 4LE, johnkapp@btinternet.com, 01273 417997.

 

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63 Responses to UK Sannyasin makes Success of Mindfulness Enterprise

  1. shantam prem says:

    “UK Sannyasin makes Success of Mindfulness Enterprise”

    Has Guardian or Independent written an article about this successful enterprise?

    • lokesh says:

      El Chudo enquires, “Has Guardian or Independent written an article about this successful enterprise?”

      SN has, which is more than can be said for Chud Meister’s failed crusade.

      Interesting article that makes sense. Bravo!

  2. Parmartha says:

    At least this article answers some criticisms that SN is locked in the past. Vivek must have done a lot of work in present time for this to have passed the UK NHS, NICE criterion, and will have done a lot of people a favour, both patients and practitioners in present time.

    I say good luck to him.

    My only comment is that when the likes of us old’uns met the Osho meditations I don’t think on the whole we were coming from a place of need, but of youthful experiment. Yes, of course the meaning of life thing was behind it, but don’t think so many of us felt heavily ‘disturbed’. Then again, it is true that a number of people I met even in those days were no strangers to depression.

    The people that Vivek will reach will be people who have been assessed by a GP as suffering depression, and with the possibility of doing his mindfulness programme, rather than sitting there for days, months and years, taking the drugs. That can only seem a good thing to me.

    • Arpana says:

      Interesting though, how they who are most critical of SN, and living in the past, are the posters who most live in the past.

    • Kavita says:

      Yes, Parmartha, “youthful experiment” was where I too got attracted to such a way of life: meditation rather than need.

      Now I realise Osho has been the main catalyst for where I am now, somehow I feel that he (that/this energy) has managed to bring out the Einstein in & out of all his disciples!

  3. Simond says:

    Being an outsider of sorts, I have no idea who is criticising SN for being in the past. Yes, there seem to be the same rather few contributors to the threads. Which is a shame – where are the newer sannyasins? Or why do so few people contribute? Why is SN seen by some as outdated? Contribute and make it a forum that you feel part of, rather than criticise from afar.

    As to the mindfulness course put together by Vivek, it sounds like a brilliant idea, and like others before me I congratulate him for his obvious hard work and dedication. Anything that helps depression is to be lauded. Brilliant idea to put together such a course.

    • Arpana says:

      1% rule (Internet culture)
      From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      In Internet culture, the 1% rule is a rule of thumb pertaining to participation in an internet community, stating that only 1% of the users of a website actively create new content, while the other 99% of the participants only lurk.

      Variants include the 1-9-90 rule or 90–9–1 principle (sometimes also presented as the 89:10:1 ratio),[1] which state that in a collaborative website such as a wiki, 90% of the participants of a community only view content, 9% of the participants edit content, and 1% of the participants actively create new content.

      Both can be compared with the similar rules known to information science, such as the 80/20 rule known as the Pareto principle, that 20 percent of a group will produce 80 percent of the activity, however the activity may be defined.

      • Simond says:

        Arpana
        This makes sense mathematically and so on. But does it truly explain anything to you? Are you satisfied by this? Why are so few people responding to this site? Is the answer in maths?

  4. lokesh says:

    Simond enquires, “Or why do so few people contribute?”
    Basically, strangers are afraid of SN because of bullies like Madhu and Shantam. They just beat up newcomers.

    Madhu is the worst. She sucks in innocents, chews them up and then blows them out in bubbles.

    Shantam employs secret detective tactics to find out people’s true identities. Once he finds them he covers their Facebook walls with chuddie pictures…euch!

    PM (Prime Minister Parmartha!) is pretty mean too. He smothers innocents with charm and gentlemanliness and then bludgeons them with censoring. Shocking, I know.

    Somehow, Simond, you have run the gauntlet created by this axis of evil. Perhaps my saintly vibrations have reached you. I pray for your well-being every night. His blessings….

  5. shantam prem says:

    Over-confidence of Lokesh shows more often a symptom: the lack of living master and a living community where he is just one of the many.

  6. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Lokesh,

    And how do you see yourself?

    Madhu

  7. shantam prem says:

    I don’t think Lokesh has ever looked at the mirror. He is so much used to the adoraion of his German wife.

    Too much sugar creates Sugar!

    If people don’t dare to write at Sannyasnews it’s because of cold and brutal assassination of their fragile feelings because of bullies like Lokesh and his small gang around.

    Rajneesh and his people are the example. They are no more here because of them.

    And from my side, I say it with hand on the heart, if anyone does not share their thoughts because of me, I will withdraw myself from here.

    I am an Indian disciple of Osho, therefore know how to make space for His people. I am not elite disciple from the West of a small town Indian guru!

    • lokesh says:

      El Chudo delivers the tragic news, “Rajneesh and his people are the example. They are no more here because of them.”

      I would say, thank fuck for that, but I won’t because I don’t want to upset any Osho lovers, or the PM for that matter. Phewee!…Talk about walking on egg shells.

  8. Shantam prem says:

    Sectco…
    I have wasted so many minutes on their website, just to see whether a single time the word OSHO has been mentioned or not.

    From this I remember, few years before, my ex. became interested in one para psychology institute in Switzerland. As per their catalogue, one day she went for one meditation with some generic name.

    Then she tells me, “What a cheat these people are. It was simply Nadabrahma meditation!”

    • frank says:

      Shantam,
      You mentioned on SN some time back that you had taken a course of Prozac.You didn`t say how long you took it for.

      What was the diagnosis that led to that?

      If you are still having trouble with the symptoms, maybe mindfulness would help?

      • shantam prem says:

        Frank, if you are not saying this to make fun of me, I am willing to write a small thread about my few weeks’ experiment with anti-depressants, ‘Meditation and Anti-Depressants.’

        If Parmartha makes the editing, I will be glad to write something essential and not always politics in the name of Meditation!

        God willing, I will be able to do it.

  9. anand yogi says:

    Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

    Not only has our ashram has been taken over by white-skinned elite baboons, now, also Sannyas News has been taken over by a small group of white-skinned elite disciples!

    There is a clear pattern here and only one who was born in a place where we understand how religions evolve could notice it! Indian disciples, like you and I, bhai, are able to make space for his people, not like elite western disciples.

    Therefore it is clear that in the matter of humility, we, the true native representatives of mighty Bhorat are vastly superior!

    The white-skinned members of the Western mind simply cannot understand the sublime sentiments of those who wish to depart from this world wearing their ancestors’ holy underwear in the manner of their forefathers!

    They have also chased away those other representatives of Osho’s Vision, Swamis Rajneesh and Dhyan Raj, and the intelligence of these great buddhas shone though for all to see! They were not at all aggressive in their approach here and were not trying to bully their way into free advertising here on SN! Not at all!

    And for their humility, as you point out, they were brutally and coldly assasinated, hung, drawn, quartered, shot, knifed, disembowelled, beheaded, electrocuted, suffocated, trampled by elephants, gassed, murdered, their testicles crushed and thrown into a freezing river without a hint of exaggeration, by white-skinned elites!

    And it may be that Lokesh has a wife who loves him and you do not, but that is the sacrifice that a true devotee of Bhorat is willing to pay!

    Chairevedi!
    Hari Om!

  10. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Lokesh,

    The question was, if you use a mirror to look inside, instead of ´employing´ it.

    Madhu

  11. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    P.S:
    You may have seen the moment and the one of your posts I was referring to, that you yourself are a bullying champion yourself, so to say.

    And I don´t refer here to all your posts, just that one where you again took me under your ´bul(lying)locks’!* (To be read in black and white so to say…).

    Madhu

    *As in bullock-cart!

  12. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Parmartha, Kavita too,
    “Youthful experiment”? I don´t know for all, of course, but I have been just meeting many of my generation at that time, who went in NEED to look for ´another way´, having been checking out much before on the ´peace-train´ and feeling the utter failure of so much.

    Look, same is happening today with the downgrading of the ´flower power´ movement, or hijacking a whole generation to make many innocents responsible for former terror acts. It’s a stupidity never ending, it seems.

    However, I agree with the direction of what Kavita is posting, although I really wouldn´t dare to bring “Einstein” in that context.

    But as it was, in former days, I really felt I happened to be gracefully joining one of the heart´s most intelligent sanghas I could have imagined and was longing for. It felt for me like ages and ages I had been longing for This. And that was the reason too, that I have been willing to commit, so to say. And be aware that He never promised a ´Rose-Garden`.

    What I have been meeting AND still am meeting as ´obstacles´, so to say, as the difficulty to let go of so many dreams and delusions, are ongoing life chapters. So – very rooted in the ever-existing present. Including that moment to write to fellow-travellers.

    And you can hit me again and again, but the love to see it that way is happening when I start to post and use the keyboard of the technical manual nowadays. Otherwise I wouldn´t give it a try.

    See you soon ?
    I am not kidding.

    Madhu

  13. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    “Being an outsider of sorts” -

    Simond, why and for what are you saying that?

    Madhu

    • Lokesh says:

      Ma Madhu, here you go again picking on Simond, because he shared his feelings. Please leave Simond alone or you will scare him off with your thuggish behaviour. Just because you are further along the spiritual path than the rest of us here on SN doesn’t mean you can terrorise people.

      Try picking on someone your own size, like El Chudo, and see where that gets you. Chudo is Indian and a Sikh wallah, therefore very advanced on the spiritual path, just like you. He is a suitable match for you, not poor Simond. Have you no shame?

    • Simond says:

      Madhu,

      I was simply referring to the fact that I have only just started contributing to the website and therefore feel myself to be an ‘outsider’. I have no knowledge or experience of the debate here about the criticisms that SN is stuck in the past.

      Happy Christmas!

  14. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    “Talk about walking on egg shells”

    Uuuhhhh, THAT really PAINS.
    Although you haven´t addressed it to me -

    But that really pains.

    And I can´t give a ´rational reason´, so don´t hit, if you please.

    Madhu

  15. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Anand Yogi,

    Sometimes I am just in awe to see you obviously being so at ease, playing with your keyboard.

    A question that´s working in me since we – more than less (MOD: DO YOU MEAN often, MADHU?) – entered this kind of ´connecting´, is:
    What can be said about karmic stuff NOWADAYS?

    Times when sometimes a digital MOB, so to say, is interfering in a debate, a discussion or whatsoever, up to love-letters posted (MOD:WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU MEAN HERE BY up to love-letters posted, PLEASE, MADHU?) intruding AND acting (on the streets) the way a MOB is interfering.

    Plus the ways those who either confirm that they are never part of destruction (mostly a lie) this way start so-called counter-strategies (´good hackers´, ´bad hackers´ – that whole programme), including invading civil life as such, as if it’s a playing field of GAMES.

    Is the individual as such ´outdated´?

    And when (MOD: PLEASE CLARIFY, MADHU) how to cope with it while being in a body?
    And how to cope with that, while being in a female body?

    I am posting these questions to your heart, Anand Yogi, as you are seemingly (for me) so relaxed with all that stuff. I am not.

    Madhu

  16. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Same is valid for you, Lokesh, as you may have willfully misunderstood my question and a question I asked somebody else. And was genuinely interested.

    Otherwise, I am not ´further´ than anybody here, neither have ever been.

    Especially not in the realms of virtual postings.

    Madhu

  17. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Thank you for answering, Simond.

    Happy Christmas too.

    Madhu

  18. Kavita says:

    Madhu, sometimes I dare unintentionally (it does not mean that I am always daring), just to clear myself.

    Seasons Greetings to All!

  19. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    “I spent 6 months in DE.
    I could have done with some decent drugs myself.
    I have never met so many uptightisch folks in my life.”

    Thank you for clearance, Frank.

    Madhu

  20. Kavita says:

    “And for their humility, as you point out, they were brutally and coldly assasinated, hung, drawn, quartered, shot, knifed, disembowelled, beheaded, electrocuted, suffocated, trampled by elephants, gassed, murdered, their testicles crushed and thrown into a freezing river without a hint of exaggeration, by white-skinned elites!”

    Anand Yogi, first of all, as for Swami Rajneesh, if maybe I know Swami Rajneesh a little more than you do, I think & feel that he is more into real constructive work & not so much into virtual/digital – destructive/constructive work, if I may say so.

  21. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Please, leave it like it is, moderators; your comments within my trial.

    For you or anybody else who likes a very well-written crime story I recommend the book of an Austrian writer, it’s called ‘ZERO´ and the writer is Marc Elsberg. It´s a very good read and gives an even better insider look on realities we all face.
    Some blissfully unaware of it, some less.

    Merry Christmas to all of you.

    Madhu (‘uptightisch’)

  22. shantam prem says:

    “Anti-depressants don´t work”…
    Are millions of people fools who take them or prescribe them?

    Many times followers of alternative therapies speak too much and that too with their foot in the mouth.

    Human mind and life situations have gone so complex that any particular branch of therapy won´t work fully. But in comparison, classic mainstream systems offer more healing, go through more rigorous clinical trials than the alternative placebos.

    • Lokesh says:

      “Foot in the mouth”? I always thought that was a disease that only affected animals.

    • satyadeva says:

      “Millions of people” may or may not be “fools”, Shantam, but they think there are no viable alternatives. Or that it’s just too much like ‘hard work’ to look into possible alternative measures.

      As there are different types or levels of depression and as people are different anyway, no single method is going to suit everybody, but in fact, homeopathy and herbal medicine both offer treatments that can be effective in many cases, eg St John’s Wort (for mild/moderate depression), and acupuncture can also be very beneficial. Also, ‘brainwave entrainment’ programmes on cd’s can be extremely helpful, as long as one is prepared to face whatever arises and work through it. Then there’s exercise, eg aerobics, swimming, running, walking, dance etc. etc.

      I know all this from my own personal experience, having been in depressive states or conditions well over half my life, although the only time I took an anti-depressant, Prozac, I had one of the worst nights of my life, a peak of high anxiety! Funny now, but appaling at the time. Age 21 I took valium for a couple of weeks, but dropped it as I didn’t like the drowsy, debilitating side-effects.

      And there are many such instances where the wrong remedy or dosage is prescribed, it’s very hit-and-miss, far from being the exact science that you, Shantam, and the vast profit-making pharmaceutical industry would like to present it as.

      Just very recently, a friend of mine was given anti-psychotic medication for quite a few weeks, reducing him to a sort of helpless ‘zombie’ who wanted to die, before his plight was such that a psychiatrist who hadn’t previously been involved, stepped in and said a major mistake had been made, as my friend wasn’t psychotic at all.

      That’s the problem with anti-depressants, although they no doubt serve a useful, perhaps life and (relative) sanity-saving purpose, they have adverse side-effects which tend to affect one’s physical health if taken long-term. Often, you can tell if someone’s on them by the state of their face, which has a sort of ‘dulled’, unconscious look, as if whatever’s troubling them is being held back by a bio-chemical compound – which is exactly the idea, isn’t it? All very well for a while, but ultimately a recipe for relatively lifeless mediocrity.

      As for Vivek’s initiative, well, as someone whose quality of life, possibly even whose life itself was saved by regular dynamic meditation in my mid-20′s, I’m all for it and good luck to him. It’s about time that dynamic (and even kundalini) played a role in the health services as it’s, well, ‘dynamite’, able to give a depressed person’s vital energy at least a ‘kick-start’, often very much more.

      However, it’s not necessarily a ‘cure-all’ or appropriate for all, eg when someone’s particularly vulnerable and/or physically simply not up to it, or has had enough of it. Again, I know this from my own experience, a hard lesson to learn at the time, having relied upon dynamic to create well-being until it simply didn’t do it for me any more (which, oddly enough, happened after my time in Pune 1).

      Also, there are other effective cathartic methods that are nowhere near as physically demanding as dynamic, in particular Somendra’s (Michael Barnett’s) ‘Dr. Body’ method, which is basically very slow latihan, not pushing anything but ‘co-operating’ with how the body wants to move and with any emotional expression that naturally arises.

      I’m told that teachers of ‘cathartic’ Chi Kung don’t allow those they consider ‘disturbed’ to take part and presumably, potential participants in Brighton will be similarly assessed by whoever refers them?

      Anyway, apart from the techniques on offer, I imagine much of the benefit of the course will be participating with others who are ‘in the same or a similar boat’, especially as depression is such an isolating condition, and I’m sure it will help many fortunate people who take it.

    • Simond says:

      Shantam Prem,

      You seem to suggest that because millions of people take anti-depressants that it is working. Is that correct? Or have I misunderstood?

      Because of these clinical trials and tests we can now safely accept these wonder pills?
      Look around you! Sad, lonely people, getting sadder and more lonely and more depressed. Drugged up, losing their minds. The drugs are intended to keep people quiet, put them in their place, keep them sufficiently deadened that they question nothing.

      Of course there are exceptions, and of course any drug that can help in the short-term is good, but we in the West have a long-term problem of people on all sorts of drugs, including anti-depressants, which isn’t doing any good at all.

      As to whether alternative medicine or natural methods of healing or even meditation can help…well, I’d prefer to see more funding here than in more funding by pharmaceutical companies that only have profit as a motive.

      There is a conspiracy, Shantam, there always has been – a conspiracy to keep intelligence and self-enquiry under control, by religions and priests and politicians. Pharmaceuticals are just another expression of that conspiracy.

  23. shantam prem says:

    I am sure the Sectco org. who has put forward this string will soon get a legal notice from Osho Foundation International for using Dynamic and Kundalini Meditation in their business model without getting prior permission and signing profit-sharing agreement of some kind.

    On the other side, I am 100% sure The Sectco has not told the NHS authorities that the meditations used in their healing model are being designed by Osho aka Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

  24. Parmartha says:

    The point is, Shantam, sometimes to get these things into the world one has to dance around a bit. If the NHS thought that these meditations were from Osho, then Vivek’s programme would not have been accepted. Once the foot is in the door, and one can show they benefit some people by their own testimony, then that shifts the whole matter along.

    To make real changes in the world one often has to operate in what some would see as an underground manner. Osho himself told us in 1985 to “go underground” at the height of the Ranch collapse.

    As for OFI, they can go and sing for their supper if they concern themselves with such small things.

  25. Parmartha says:

    My own experience of working as a professional with those suffering something labelled ‘depression’ is that the main dividing line is between those who are ‘paralysed’ by their mental states and those who somehow find something within them to be proactive and to change.

    Only the latter category is likely to benefit from these laudable programmes of Vivek.
    The other guys – that is where human tragedy really kicks in.

  26. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Parmartha,

    Reading your lines this evening, I wish you very well recreation days around Christmas, the nourishing that is to be amongst good friends, who are not needy.

    About what you call ´a foot-in-the-door´ practice, the way you combined it with the thread´s issue, I can understand how you put it, but would question that by my own life experiences. I experienced quite often that an essence of ´teaching´made it not through the door (with the foot). But that is the way it is.

    As ´underground´ is concerned, I felt it has been always happening. There is no proof about that, what Silence has been transferred and does not die with the death of forms. That´s good news, isn´t it?

    Madhu

  27. Kavita says:

    After reading SD’s post I have gathered the courage to go (publicly) into my experience of twice (once in 1999 & then in 2010 ) being sleepless for nearly three weeks, which has been interpreted by medical practitioners as depression, although frankly, I still don’t quite agree that that was depression, it was simple lack of sleep, according to me .

    Anyhow, when I went through this sleepless state I was given medication to induce sleep, but when I was conscious/awake I did not want to consume any such medication, so my friends & family would secretly mix it in my food, but once I had come to my normal sleeping pattern & I became aware that I was given medication for sleep I asked them to stop any/all medication.

    In fact, when I was told about being given medication I felt very guilty for being given/taking medication during that time, but now I guess there was no other alternative for my near & dear ones.

    Now I have become very conscious about my sleeping pattern & try to sleep at least 8 hours, my guess is regular natural sleeping pattern is very crucial for my/the body- mind mechanism. Of course, each one’s experience is different & cannot be the same, but at least we can relate to it from wherever we are.

    Thanx, SD.

    • Parmartha says:

      Good, honest and moving post, Kavita.

      Osho was luckier than you. His father resisted all the doctors who said he should be given medication during his breakdown when he was 19/20.

      He sure was lucky with the father he was born to. Running eight miles morning and evening helped him greatly at this time, and probably guaranteed some sleep!

  28. Prem Martyn says:

    Only two more Xmas shopping days to get what Shantam hasn’t got yet.

  29. shantam prem says:

    MEDICATION TO MEDITATION…
    It is cliché, a gimmick.
    In reality, it can be Medication And Meditation….

  30. shantam prem says:

    Just saw one banner at facebook. I think it fits with the theme of medication and meditation. One can add mantras too! Sannyasin mantra singers too can get the piece of cake from NHS!

    Strangely, everything works. For few it can be cow urine, for few it can be Golden Showers!

  31. karima says:

    If I totally believe that I am a separate identity, then the only intelligent reaction is that I become depressed! And that can be a stepping stone for inquiry and seeing who I really am.

    Otherwise I am just trying to adapt to the nuthouse, where the happiness drugs in all forms are pushed to the limit and people try, but cannot live up to those false standards, hence depression, plus feeling guilty about it and therefore wanting to get rid of it.

  32. shantam prem says:

    HAPPY CHRISTMAS to world´s most innocent/snobbish spiritual seekers….

    • karima says:

      Yes, shop till you drop and hang like Jesus…the ultimate depression and suffering!

      But what was his shopping when he uttered the words “Father, why has Thou forsaken me?” Hope that there was a God who would save Him?

      • satyadeva says:

        Profound spiritual crisis, Karima, he wasn’t sure whether his consciousness/Life Itself (“MY God”, not any external ‘God’ – and certainly not his body-mind) would carry him through…

        Apparently though, it did.

        I really wouldn’t know, of course, but anyway, that’s my interpretation, based on what I’ve heard.

    • Lokesh says:

      Dear Chud Buster, keep taking your medication and get well soon.

  33. shantam prem says:

    i am really trying to imagine the grin of all those Americans, British, Canadians, Germans who changed their names under the influence of an Indian guru and now will be eating Christmas meal with their near and dear ones and singing Happy Birthday, Jesus Christ, our Lord, our Saviour!

    Maybe when others will make cross with their index finger, these swamís and mas will make a kind of round – pt means locket in the mala and also O!

    • Lokesh says:

      Chudo, what you miss is that for most, Christmas has nothing to do with JC’s birthday and everything to do with having a good time with family and friends. What is it you wish? Oshomass on 11 December? You need to lighten up.

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