On November 18th, 1978, a man calling himself Rev. Jim Jones (though in fact he was a communist – his community in Guyana was lauded by Soviet visitors and writers at the time), led his intentional agricultural community called the People’s Temple in an act of mass suicide, or as some have argued mass murder. The greatest number of US citizens died in such a single event (914) until the twin towers attack of 9/11 overtook that figure. Those who left suicide notes left all their money to the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.
My interest in this devastating event is not so much the personality of Jim Jones, but those who followed him in such an anti-life demonstration, and with such conformity.
Jones himself said things like
“Ever since as a child I saw a dog die, I wanted to kill myself”.
“All you who are in love are in trouble”
“I was the master of revolutionary sex, able to copulate 15 times a day, but now all I want is the orgasm of the grave”
What is startling about Jones is not his bizarre and arguable “mad” views - but what is not explained which was his power over others. This power was not confined to those who died alongside him sipping cyanide, but leading politicians of the day, including Jimmy Carter’s wife. As a young man I did meet professionally a few people who were labelled psychopaths, but who were extremely charming and charismatic – if one did not know the diagnosis, so there clearly is some constellation of mental illness where this happens. . However it seems very odd, that many, what were in other terms idealistic middle class young people, as far as I know, took their own lives at the behest of someone else, and in the name of a political movement.
(A US Congressman, Leo Ryan, who represented part of California was shot when leading a group trying to enable those who wanted to leave the settlement to do so, which precipitated the mass suicide. A few years later one of his daughters Shannon Jo Ryan became a sannyasin. Her name was Amrita Pritam. Anyone know what happened to her, and her story?)
The psychology of the “follower” is to me more interesting than the psychology of the charismatic mad leader, and it should be fully explored. Hitler would be a much more enormous figure with this type of personality, and look what hell he propagated. Do SN punters have some views?
Parmartha
We normally need to follow someone because we are scared of the world , which is too big, full of unexpected situations, then we can become blind believers, as in all the religions happen. As Osho says, a master wants to destroy any ideology in you, wants to decondition you, to make you free from yourself. A teacher, a priest, wants you to stick to his ideology, because he is in an ego-trip. Now, i cannot blame teachers, fake masters, priests, because people want them, they exists because of the people. It is not a case that a blind believer choose a priest and not an enlightened master. A master is too much for this person, because with a master you have to face yourself. Anyway also in the Osho environment is full of people, therapists, playing the role of the master and they are full of followers.
I don’t know about having an opinion but from memory I know that Jim Jones and Osho were picking followers from completely different strata of society.
There are no leaders. In general a clever person ‘personifies’ an idea that is already in the would-be followers head. It’s called standing in front of a crowd.
I find it difficult to compare Jim Jones to Osho or even compare their followers. It’s yellow journalism. Especially when old Adolf is thrown in the mix. There is a Xtian propaganda mocumentary called Fear Is The Master which does just that and badly. Comparing Jim Jones to Osho or their respective followers is like comparing a horse cart to a car. Yes they both have four wheels … but that is where the similarity ends.
PS I always thought that the laying down stage of the mystic rose was a Jim Jones wind-up … any opinions on that?
I am not comparing Osho and Jim Jones !
It seems disciples/followers are moulded in such a way, that they see all bad in the humanity surrounding them, I think because of such attitude, sooner or later they and their messiah’s work ends up in the foot notes of the history.
Shantam, are you feeling a bit depressed today?
Is it possible?
Surely with Shantih pants on, you are always in ‘deep rest’ (aka Samadhi)
I wonder a certain kind of personality become involved with people like Osho.
People who want a meaningful life, rather than happiness, or are pleasure
seeking, and then at the beginning, speaking personally, falling in love, but without the lust
http://www.nscblog.com/personal-growth/the-pleasant-life-the-good-life-and-the-meaningful-life/
The Meaningful Life: Happiness comes from a deep sense of fulfillment by living for a purpose greater than oneself.
(Martin Seligman. )
Arpana says:
>> I wonder a certain kind of personality become involved with people like Osho.
I don’t think personality is a good measure. I am always surprised by the different types of ppl who get attracted to Osho, from professors to loonies. And then there is the other lot, the ones who get attracted to sannyasins.
And then there is the other lot, the ones who get attracted to sannyasins.
Yes.Good distinction.
Fair enough, but I still wonder if a certain type, who might work as a loonie, a professor, a barman a social worker. Something deeper than employment..
I’m sticking with wondering about those who seek a meaningful life.
Every one here who seems most into Osho, I would suggest wants a meaning full life.
(Don’t make to much of this. Be so much easier in a pub. Existence is just musing through me. Snigger . )
Arpana says:
>> I’m sticking with wondering about those who seek a meaningful life.
Every one here who seems most into Osho, I would suggest wants a meaning full life.
(Don’t make to much of this. Be so much easier in a pub. Existence is just musing through me. Snigger . )
Ask anyone in the street and they will say they want a meaningful life so nothing special about sannyasins there. And whether a meaningful life is the purpose of existence is a debatable issue and also worth working on, but the particular point I want to tackle here is that … what brings people to Osho is not necessarily what keeps them there.
The single biggest secret attraction of Osho and his sannyasins is laughter. You can’t think and laugh at the same time. A taste of no-mind has been subtly introduced into the buddhafield below the conscious perception of the participants. Love-bombing did the rest.
(Even on the personal level my favourite Osho is when he is laughing.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v83/abraxas/no%209/laugh_zpse1b6fae3.jpg
What keeps them in sannyas is not being prepared to admit that they have been fooled (laughing and no-mind can’t solve your problems) … just joking.
There is no meaning to life. But one can create a meaning. Most pick from what is around them. Some are looking for something special and go to India or Tibet or Osama Bin Laden. I reckon the religious fanatics are the most satisfied. It’s a fool’s game and it needs to be played well. If I were to identify a single characteristic of sannyasins I would say, creativity. If you don’t know what to do, make something up (Lokesh does it all time, hehe) and then make it the purpose of your life. That’s the ‘totality’ part we were talking about the other day.
BV, Said.
Ask anyone in the street and they will say they want a meaningful life so nothing special about sannyasins there.
Shantam type sweeping statement.
BV said.
The single biggest secret attraction of Osho and his sannyasins is laughter.
Shantam type sweeping statement
BV. Said.
There is no meaning to life. But one can create a meaning.
Yes I agree.
BV, Said.
Ask anyone in the street and they will say they want a meaningful life so nothing special about sannyasins there.
Arpana says:
Shantam type sweeping statement.
Ok, I’ll try again only this time I’ll use a different word. Justification. Justification offers validity. Even people on death row have justification for their actions. Looking for validity in meaning (when there is none) with a mind that doesn’t accept no as an answer, is perilous ground indeed. But I am sure you can justify your existence even though you might choose not to give it meaning.
The meaning of my life is to understand because existence has decided to understand itself. I also hold a version where I have created everything for my amusement. I am a bit stuck with that one because I am not clever enough to have created Osho. Boom boom. Can you hear the bells too?
Assumption and rationalisation.
Better than Shantam this time, so keep up the good work.
MEANING!! LIFE!!! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc
~ The Laughing Buddha
Quotes not permitted at this level. Speak for yourself. Does the noise in my head bother you?
There is another Zelig man from Woody Allen’s comedy the chameleon-like ‘Zelig’ 1983.
Leonard Zelig: I’m 12 years old. I run into a Synagogue. I ask the Rabbi the meaning of life. He tells me the meaning of life… But, he tells it to me in Hebrew. I don’t understand Hebrew. Then he wants to charge me six hundred dollars for Hebrew lessons.
[Zelig thinks he's a psychiatrist.]
Leonard Zelig: I worked with Freud in Vienna. We broke over the concept of penis envy. Freud felt that it should be limited to women.
Bruno Bettelheim: The question of weather Zelig was a psychotic or merely neurotic was a question that was endlessly discussed among his doctors. Now I myself felt his feelings were really not all that different from the normal, what one would call the well-adjusted, normal person, only carried to an extreme degree, to an extreme extent. I myself felt that one could really think of him as the ultimate conformist.
Perhaps one has to start with the ‘moaning’ of life (as in the scary four noble truths of Boo!dhism) to get to the ‘meaning’ of life.
Naturally there is externally oriented fulfillment, but is not (causeless) joy our true nature, (or so she tells me) ?
Further to the Pos Psych ensemble, how can anybody read a book called “Flow” by an author called “Mihaly Csikszentmihaly”, do so, without being doubled up with laughter ?
Just my six cents (Csiks zent) ha ha ha…
suicide has a long pedigree in human history.
“the ultimate sacrifice” has consistently been a matter of pride,not always shame.
probably all societies have glorified some versions of it,
religious or martial.
if you want,google,`the history of suicide.`
theres a remarkably familiar list of names on the role-call of practitioners there.
defeated warriors of the ancient world
sati in india
fast unto death
jesus christ/Christians
suicide as political acts all over the world
self-immolation
kamikaze pilots
suicide bombers
all kinds of characters making all sorts of points as well as being just plain desperate.
jones and his crew obviously had their social/political/religious reasons to make the act meaningful.
“man would rather will nothingness than not will”
—-freddie N
One Autumn morning in 1974 I got up before dawn and climbed with some companions a small mountain near the dead sea. I think it was called Messina, or some such. It was where the remaining Jewish fighters in the uprising of AD70 all committed suicide in the face of a Roman crackdown.
It was an inspiring dawn, but I must confess I could not understand either the fight these guys embarked upon, or their mass suicide.
Likewise I find it hard to explain why currently more young men in the UK commit suicide than are killed in road accidents.
I suppose suicide is like marmite.
you either get it or you don’t.
like albert,i thought about it,but decided to give it a miss.
Yeah, frank, probably best to ‘leave it out’…It’ll all be done for you soon enough anyway…You know, by Shivamurti’s old mate, ‘Existence’….
What ever you , keep an eye on him.
Marmalite (shudder)
Satyadeva
I never did say Existence and I were friends, its more like car pooling
Existence would appear to be using SD to take the piss out of you Shiv. Hmm!!
Arpana
I am a sharing guy,if someone wants my piss, who am I to say no.
Existence plays hard and deep, SD is just being entertaining. To themselves.
One night in my last month in the jungle, I had gone to the river. Lighting up a cigarette I turned and 15 meters away a Bengal Tiger stood up and started growling at me. I finished my cigarette and walked back to my cave, so I doubt these guys are going to worry me much.
I ‘m beating my chest. Existence is alive and listening, These guys are honest , they have said their experience with existence has been minimal. I respect that. SD called me “Blessed”, I said I was more damned, I do not know all of the stories, but many who transformed might say damned. When it wants you, it takes you, it doesn’t seem to do it halfway. To have some guy ridicule me on the internet at my bidding is not painful by comparison. Let’s see what this brings. Mother Kali. I am sure in anything I say there is room for sarcasm, my truth is unbelievable as is my life
‘To have some guy ridicule me on the internet at my bidding is not painful by comparison.’
If I was younger I would say something like cool. or awesome, or rather existence would say that through me.
You never let anything go by do you., or existence doesn’t let anything go by you who are not.
Arpana
I am not sure what you mean by go by. and the difference is not so much a matter of not being as no tension. That is consistent. There is quite a difference between being here and not, but if one subtracts all the senses it would probably be the same either place
I’m beginning to wonder whether this is a spoof, Shivamurti…I mean, all that Red Indian drama, all this talk of ‘Existence’, of being yet not being etc. etc…
Even if it isn’t, it’s certainly richly worthy of comic interpretation…
I hope you do realise how absurd it all sounds.
Satyadeva Oh gee you are about to catch, gee what should I do now?
Do you think it is so clever that you doubt me.
So lets see I say all this so you can have honor of discrediting me.
Sorry Satyadeva, every word is truth, and what I have covered is such a small portion of my life. Unless you know me, and just hear me speak of my life it seems unbelievable,
I do not care if you believe me, you have minimal experience, that you believe your self to be a my critic is a joke , we are not on the same page, so keep making your sneering little comments. Apparently people think highly of you here, I give you the same courtesy I give anyone, the idea you have of entertainment is not spectacular. Ridicule is the lowest form of ?
I am still am not angry, but I will deal with you.
I have had a mystical life, sorry you have not, but do not try to bother me with your crap mind, it is redundant to do so. My friends know I am a mystic, you are not my friend, how would you know? So do not be petty. So SD I will stick to the truth, and like I said in my previous letter “Let’s see<<<"
Well, Mr Realisations, that’s what I call a thoroughly humourless little hissy fit!
Your po-faced self-importance simply piles on the absurdity.
You wouldn’t be Swami R in disguise, by any chance, would you?
Either him or an otherwise unemployed humourist…
Right now, I’d vote for the latter.
SD
took me some time to get back, would you like proof. Hmmm what kind of proof can I offer you, you say you have had little experience. I have to ask, What do you think Buddha and Lao Tzu and Bhagwan are talking about? They are talking about Existence. When any of them say they are doing nothing what do you think it means. If they, people like you go through transformation and then say they are doing nothing, and yet there is still action,what is doing this action? Ex. When Lao Tzu is flowing without effort, what chops the wood? This is basic.
one does nor do anything, Ex. does it. It is the same with the mind. That you perceive you as doing it defines the illusion. That you cannot free yourself of the mind defines the illusion. If you control your mind STOP IT. And you cannot and you know it. I can. I did not do anything to get here, just risked,and I did not work for it or expect it.
So what can I prove “Nothing”
Let’s see ther Ghost dance.
Take Interstate 90 across South Dakota (west) till you get to Wanblee (which means Eagle) go left stay on main road past Eagle Butte ( Crazy Horse is buried there though only the Chipps know where) go around the big curve and on your left about 2 mile you will find the Chipps farm. Charlie and Godfrey Chipps, both medicine men of the Lakota. You can look them up on Google , they may even be in Loki’s book. I am not sure if they are there, when I left in 2011 I was sitting with Grandma Chipps ( she was supposed to be the real power, she died shorty after I left, she has a book of prayers she wrote) , Anyway last time I was there Godfrey was still in jail in Minn. for murder (knife fight), and Charlie was in jail for child molestation. So if they are not there in July probably some Comanches from Texas will be happy to lead you thru the Ghost dance, that is if the Indian council is letting any white people do it these days after that dummy killed those 3 people in 2011 in a sweat lodge. If they will let you and I am in the States I will be happy to take care of you for the ceremony. Oh Grandma Chipps father was medicine man to Crazy Horse in the battle against the 7th Calvary at the Little Big Horn. Say hi to Debbie and do not give any money to Charlies daughter.
All it takes is balls.
You might die, it happens, you might never recover from it, you might have a mental breakdown. Gamble. Something very nice might happen.
You remember Bhagwan saying of those who become enlightened 60% die, 37% go insane, 2% never speak of it, and 1% speaks. For me all this is an adventure. I was with Fanatic sannyasins in the East, and here it is mindful sannyasin s in the west. It is lovely.
Didn’t Osho (and others) say most people get ‘enlightened’ at death rather than when alive? That so-called 60% is about that, isn’t it, not after ‘enlightenment’?
And as for going “insane”, well, that’s surely where having a proper teacher comes in, to render that outcome far less probable.
Besides, this “gamble” you go on about – apart from the, er, ‘questionable credentials’ of the two guys running the show – smacks of utter recklessness, total stupidity. If you’re really for real, then you’re an irresponsible fool to even think of recommending such a course of action to anyone. Don’t you realise the importance of preparation, of only venturing into certain areas when the time is right?
I’m now beginning to think you’ve more than a screw loose.
satyadeva says:
>> Well, Mr Realisations, that’s what I call a thoroughly humourless little hissy fit!
>> Your po-faced self-importance simply piles on the absurdity.
Don’t encourage him. He is too scared to commit suicide and he wants to be crucified (he says sarcastically) hahaha.
good drivers , bad actors
How about Boredom?
Tilled the garden for the last time, not ready to face another dynamic
My eight-year-old grandson is going through a ‘I am bored’ numero. Couple of weeks back I told him that the most boring people are the ones who say they are bored. A few days ago I asked him who the most boring people are. He replied, ‘The people who say they are bored.’
I told him that’s the right answer and gave him five euros.
Yestrday he was pissed off because him mum would not let him play games on her new i-pad. Noticing his long face I asked him what’s up. He answered, ‘I’m bored.’
Some people just don’t get it.
Psychology of the follower is really a subject worth of studies in universities. This aspect is ignored till now.
As a initiator of this thread, why not you share your personal experience, Parmartha, what prompted you to become a life long follower of Bhagwan aka Osho.
Shanty pants declares, ‘Psychology of the follower is really a subject worth of studies in universities. This aspect is ignored till now.’
This is uninformed bullshit. There are tons of articles on this subject, whole books even. Suggested reading ‘The Guru Papers’. This is a must read for anyone who has been involved with a spiritual master, for it lays bare the nuts and bolts of the guru business.
Yes required reading on this subject. Free chapters online at authors’ site, interviews,videos etc.
http://www.joeldiana.com/guru_papers.html
Dominic, thanks for the link. I lent the GPs to someone and that is the third copy that went AWOL. Shantypants and a few other tontos on SN need to get with the picture and check the GPs, but I kind of doubt they ever will. Heap powerful medicine…ugh!
Ho! For “It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand.” – Apache.
Also been reading of late “Spiritual Bypassing”
For “Those that lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.” – Blackfoot
http://robertmasters.com/writings/spiritual-bypassing/
Now thats a great revelation Lokesh , that this GP you are referring to , is read by few tontos ! I hope you keep the forth copy for yourself , this time !
‘Forth’? Kavita is this an oblique reference to the River Forth in Scotland; an effort to make me long for the mountains in the north? Or could it have something to do with Turiya. Or maybe you are simply tonta talking tontarias.
Oh ! how we love jumping to conclusions !
‘fourth ‘, it’s just a simple slip of the spelling .
“A simple slip”.. Ha ha.
“Forth”and”copy”
It’s a subliminal message. As in “Go FORTH and multiply”, it’s most famous usage.
Go Forth and Multiply
One day, God and Adam were walking in the Garden of Eden. God told Adam that it was time to populate the Earth.
“Adam, you can start by kissing Eve.”
“Lord, what is a kiss?” asked Adam.
God explained, and then Adam went over to Eve and kissed her.
A little while later, Adam returned with a big smile and said, “Lord! That was great! What’s next?”
“Adam, I now want you to caress Eve.”
“Lord, what is caress?’” asked Adam.
God explained, and then Adam went to Eve and caressed her.
A little while later, Adam returned with a big smile and said, “Lord, that was even better than a kiss! What’s next?”
“Here is what gets the deed done. I now want you to make love to Eve.”
“Lord, what is ‘make love?’” asked Adam.
God explained, and then Adam went back to Eve.
A few minutes later, Adam returned and asked, “Lord, what is a headache?”
There is also this …
Osho Rajneesh and His Disciples: Some Western Perceptions
http://tinyurl.com/o3z8qsl
I’ve got a copy of that, but I never got round to reading it.
Might be a good idea for you to xheck it out, Arps.
I have reached the conclusion that we are no longer known. What I assumed to be public maturity is just plain ignorance. This can a double edged sword because on the one side it leaves the field clear to filled by the correct content but I am also prepared that some (many?) might also resort to the net to fill the gaps in their knowledge.
Osho, the zen rascal he was, never made it easy for us.
We the Osho followers feel insulted when someone does not recognise as disciple but categorised as follower.
How we can be followers, we are individuals who chose their own path.
I think in dictionary both have the same meaning. I think there may be a very subtle difference. For example, if some man is married to a high earning woman, he knows, it is not as easy thing to expect head from her!
She gives but with a pride.
Academically built followers are like this!
I don’t know where you get your info about high earning women from,shantam.
but you sound like an academic to me
it might be true re..your heroes the queen and prince philip for example.
but I once went out with a high-flying millionairess (I was just an unemployed bum at the time)and her lips were virtually super-glued to my dick…
suicide is what people these days call a “lifestyle option”.
maybe if you were to discover why people commit suicide and why they let psychopaths pull them into it,it might be quite the same kind of thing as working out what is the point of staying alive(meaning of life)is?
I was in a bar on the left bank of the seine with albert camus one day…
albert turned to me and said:
“you know, there is only one serious philosophical question, and that is suicide”
“yup” I replied, as I took deep drag on my gauloise,ordered another round of large café cognac and called the two blond girls sitting at the next table over to join us..
“it`s worth thinking about”
Guy #1: He’s not down with it.
Guy #2: What do you mean, he’s not down with it?
Guy #1: Don’t worry, he’s going to be down with it.
Guy #2: How’s he going to be down with it?
Guy #1: We’ll make him down with it. –Ave. A
Arpana
Osho spoke about Jim Jones at some point in Poona one, do you have the resources to track down the reference, and give the link? Thanks if you can.
About fifty quotes Swam.
If you want more letme know.
What happened in Jonestown was absolutely Christian, but not even a single person in the world has talked about the fact that it was a Christian phenomenon, that Christianity was its background, that Jim Jones was a reverend, that he was a Christian priest, and the people who followed him simply followed according to the Christian ideology.
Of course, they went to the very logical end. Jesus says to his people: “After death there will be judgment day, and I will be there to pick my people. And only those who are with me will be saved; all
others will be thrown into the eternal darkness of hell.”
Reverend Jim Jones was continually teaching the BIBLE, Christianity, and of course he was teachingthat real life begins after death. And if he convinced those fools, one thousand fools, it is nothing to be
surprised at: they were all Christians. The gospel was Christian, and if he convinced them to die with him … why wait for the judgment day?
And on the judgment day there is going to be so much of a crowd — poor Jim Jones, how is he going to find his one thousand followers?
It will be really difficult. The best way is: Jim Jones dies and with him his followers die. And they will reach the gates of heaven with God and Jesus Christ and all the apostles shouting, “Alleluia!” This is far better, quicker.
Osho.
From Darkness to Light
Chapter #12
Chapter title: A single humanity rejoicing
Reverend Jim Jones managed to convince one thousand people that if they died with him, he would take all of them into paradise. He went a little farther than Jesus Christ. Jesus was saying, “At the time of judgment, the final day of judgment, I will choose my sheep and take them into paradise.”
Reverend Jim Jones is more progressive, more speedy, more American. “Why wait for the day of judgment? I am going, come along with me.” And all those people — most of them black, uneducated, uncultured, knowing nothing about existence, its experiences — they had heard only this fool, Reverend Jim
Jones. They had followed him out of the country; then finally they followed him out of life.
And it is a surprise that nobody criticized Christianity for it. Nobody could see a simple connection: that what Jesus was saying, this poor fellow, Reverend Jim Jones, was practicing, of course with more modern techniques. The people who died in Jonestown, they were given Kool-Aid to drink which was full of poison.
Really contemporary! Jesus cannot be thought to have known anything about Kool-Aid. It was tasty, and death was not a fear because the leader, the shepherd, was going with them, and he
knew the way, he had a direct communication line with God.
On the contrary, Christians criticize me; they say that I am creating another Jonestown. They are responsible for Jonestown. They are responsible for so much violence in the whole history that it would have been a great blessing if the holy ghost had missed his target. The world would have been in a better condition without Christians. It will be, one day, in a better condition without all religions. In some way or other, they are all suicidal. A few, like Reverend Jones and his followers, do it quickly.
Osho.
From the False to the Truth
Chapter #32
Chapter title: God: the need of the old man
@Parmartha
Have a look at The Rajneesh Bible, volume 1, discourse 7, “From Crossianity to Jonestown”.
Thanks Arpana and Tan.
“but I once went out with a high-flying millionairess (I was just an unemployed bum at the time)and her lips were virtually super-glued to my dick…” Mr. Frank
Was this millionaires was saying after tasting the candy, ” Hallo Swami, I want to have your baby. I want to introduce to my parents?”
Sometime life imitates movies. Any way, porn movies have limited story lines, for example, woman living in a villa tastes the handy man´s coke!
Coke which has miles long truck with a depth of an inch! (Ok 5 Inches)
Sometime I wonder, compared to all the gurus of last century, Osho really speaks “Scientific”, no hocus pocus, no belief system, no renunciation of any kind, no moral dilemma about cigarettes, wine, condoms and pills…
One in-house book writer even wrote a complete book that even Nostradamus has seen New world teacher will be exactly like Osho, at that time it was Rajneesh, the full moon!
Through this present article also one gets the feeling, sannyasins want to portray their moon among the black clouds.
And to be true, I also feel from all the angles Osho through His theoretical talks and ashram creation has tried to revolutionise the world of religions. Why it has gone confined to the five books in a lower shelf of a vast book store is a question worth discussing, one time, two times and again and again.. after all it is the psychology of the followers which makes all the difference..
Followers are like the construction crew…
‘On the surface, he’s profound, but deep down, he’s superficial.’
shantam prem says:
>> Why it has gone confined to the five books in a lower shelf of a vast book store is a question worth discussing, one time, two times and again and again.. after all it is the psychology of the followers which makes all the difference..
Spot on observation there Shantam and in my neck of the woods we are going to remedy that as soon as poss. Osho’s contribution to the development of human self-awareness was revolutionary when it was brought to the west in the ’70s and 80s and it is still revolutionary today. All it needs is to be presented properly and using the correct language of the present time. For example, words like enlightenment are meaningless today. I am working on the language of experience as we speak. How about words like, developing a spiritual attitude?
>> Followers are like the construction crew…
Can you elaborate on that please? It does not compute.
Shantypants declares, ‘Osho really speaks “Scientific”, no hocus pocus.’
Sounds like hocus-pokus to me.
No-one as yet really has come up with an answer to my question, why are a small minority of these “leaders” also psychopaths, and why do the followers still follow them in such numbers? Maybe millions of ordinary Germans literally worshipped Hitler, and arguably died in the end because of his hold on them.
Restricting ourselves to spiritual life the paradigm of the guru/disciple has to be finished – to really create the new man. It doesn’t matter if the teacher is “good” “bad” or someone who considers themselves to be “beyond good and evil”.
It is the paradigm itself which is rotten cos it traps the psychology of the follower into someone who finds it very difficult, when suddenly catapulted into a real crisis, (like those poor followers in 1978 in Jonestown) to think, feel or be for themselves.
Psychopaths, and I quote, are incredibly plausible.
I call it the plausibility of ignorance.
Listen to Kelvin McKenzie and Michael Gove.
Both ignorant and uninformed bigots, but unbelievably plausible.
Some people who don’t know are taken in by those who appear to know. Who provide explanations. Have certainty.
Good point, Arpana.
Parmartha says:
No-one as yet really has come up with an answer to my question, why are a small minority of these “leaders” also psychopaths, and why do the followers still follow them in such numbers?
Words can be confusing. The medical terminologies can be misleading when one tries to comprehend the condition from the verbiage.
A true psychopath is a person who is uncomfortable with his psyche (i.e. his history) AND who is also very good at covering it up. Therefore what you get is a manufactured persona (which of course by not being real can be very appealing) overlaying a scarred psyche waiting to burst through the very second the delicate false persona cracks. Invariably psychopaths are also sociopaths.
One in 25 business leaders may be a psychopath
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/01/psychopath-workplace-jobs-study
Most people are normal and boring. Psychopaths can be interesting because you never know where you stand with them. They can switch from positive to negative and back again for no apparent external reason (because all the conflicts are within). That’s why women like communicating with serial killers. Extreme violence is always accompanied with extreme delicacy. It’s the, “If the devil looked like the devil, you wouldn’t let him in the door” philosophy.
If you are looking for the average psychology of a follower … a bored individual looking for a bit of fun and who has bitten more than he can chew.
Are You Dating a Psychopath?
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PM asks, ‘No-one as yet really has come up with an answer to my question, why are a small minority of these “leaders” also psychopaths, and why do the followers still follow them in such numbers?’
I think the answer to that is very simple. They are fucking stupid.
Well the guru papers is subtitled ‘masks of authoritarian power’ and shows how authoritarianism is built into 99% of spirituality and societal structures.
We are disconnected from ourselves early on, and we adapt in order to survive.
No good saying stupid followers, psychopaths, that’s not us, if that’s alright with you. Don’t want to rock the boat here…you might not like me…sorry if I’ve offended anyone…I just want to fit in…pretty please…
I’ll be good..
shantam prem says:
>> Why it has gone confined to the five books in a lower shelf of a vast book store is a question worth discussing, one time, two times and again and again.. after all it is the psychology of the followers which makes all the difference..
Might be something to do with the fact that during the seventies.
NO INTERNET. No AMAZON. NO E-BAY.
You see, what people do these days is switch the computer on and type Osho into the search engine, (that’s part of the internet by the way.)
I just did it.
Videos. About 233,000 results
Web search. About 16,000,000 results.
You can do this any where in the world that has a computer.
If the place doesn’t have internet access it probably doesn’t have a bookshop.
Oh Dear.!!!
Arpana says:
>> You see, what people do these days is switch the computer on and type Osho into the search engine, (that’s part of the internet by the way.)
The $64 million question is, why would anyone type Osho if they don’t know of Osho?
Allow me to rephrase, what should they be looking for to bump into Osho?
And I will rephrase again, the people that should be into Osho, where are they now, instead?
I dont want to play last word game with you.
I don’t think you know the answers.
Is that supposed to make me feel bad?
rotflmao
Oh dear,
world is so full of love.
Just typed Love and there are about 7,540,000,000 results.
Exactly, world population.
It means everybody is loving every body else.
Type the word Sex and there are 3,150,000,000 results.
almost half of love.
It proves two people are needed to make love.
let us take the study further..
Paulo Coleho
27.500.000
Osho
16.000.000
What does it show??
I think Dr. butcher Assad needs a new spokes person, who shows statistically, Syria is a peaceful land!
BELOVED MASTER,
WHY DOES EVERYBODY WANT TO PROVE AND TO ASSERT? WHAT IS THE PSYCHOLOGY BEHIND PROVING AND ASSERTING ONESELF?
PLEASE EXPLAIN.
The psychology behind assertiveness, behind proving oneself, is very simple. Every child, from his very beginning, is told that he is not what he should be. Disciplines are given, commandments are given; he has to fulfill them. If he cannot, he starts feeling inferior. It seems that others are fulfilling them, only he is not capable. And the inferiority complex is the basic mind disease out of which many diseases arise.
No child is born with an inferiority complex. It is the parents, the teachers, the priests, the society, the culture, which are responsible for creating the inferiority complex in the child. And the only way for the child to get rid of it seems to be to prove himself worthy according to the expectations of others. It creates a very miserable situation. He is not growing towards his own potential, he is following guidelines given by others. He will become somebody else that he was not by his nature supposed to be. He will never be happy; misery is going to be his lot. He may be able to assert himself; he may not be able to prove he is worthy, or he may be able to prove he is — whatever the case, misery is going to be the end result.
If he proves worthy in the eyes of others and becomes respectable, he will smile — but in his being there will be no flowers blossoming. He will show that he is dignified, but deep down he knows he has betrayed himself. He has committed the greatest crime possible: he has betrayed his own nature. He has gone against existence and listened to all kinds of idiots.
If he succeeds, then he is miserable. If he does not succeed, of course he is going to be miserable; he has failed. Others were right, that he is basically inferior, that he does not belong to the higher class, that he belongs to the lowest. It hurts — because no individual is higher and no individual is lower.
I do not mean by that that everybody is equal. I am not a communist. Communism, to me, is out of date. It is as dead as Christianity, Buddhism, Mohammedanism. My approach is totally different. In the past these were the only two alternatives: either man is equal — equality of all human beings — or people are unequal. I have a third alternative: people are unique, incomparable. They cannot be compared, so how can you say who is inferior and who is superior? Is the flower of the marigold inferior to the rose?
But how can you decide? They are unique in their individualities. The whole existence produces only unique people; it does not believe in carbon copies. So the question of equality or inequality does not arise;I cut it from the very roots.
Osho.
From Bondage to Freedom
Chapter #31
Chapter title: Democracy means mediocracy
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I just watched the longer version of the video. I didn’t feel she had the answer he was trying to extract from her.
It made me think that it was in the ’70s when they started using the TV soap operas in order to educate people on how to respond to stressful situations.
It made me think that it was in the ’70s when they started using the TV soap operas in order to educate people on how to respond to stressful situations.
Is that serious?
Arpana,
From you got the Osho apps?
I mean with a friction of a second, you can copy paste Osho contents on any topic, almost like a drone missile!
“Friction of a second” eh?
Are you wearing new chuddies (aka Shantihpants) and they are a little tight, causing chafing and constriction. Try the new samadhi pants, they are a little looser and forgiving on the muladhara.
Gandhoo surmises you are “depressed” but I say, only in “deep rest”.
The last post, from Bondage to Freedom, was a serendipitous find.
What like handcuffs, whips and chains? Kinky devil!
What was Jim Jones appeal?
I was meditating upon it, then it hit me….ALLITERATION! With a catchy name like that I would have died a thousand deaths. Think about it….
Imagine had he been called Algernon, Percy or Gaylord, or even Herbert, Volkard, Cecil or Leslie…I mean LESLIE! Who would have followed? Not I. Jack Jones would have been good too, but I’d probably have to pass on Julian.
Here we are joyously jabbering with every Jane and Joe, about Jack and Jill joining the jerk Jim Jones. What juju and junk. Just joking…but it’s juicy and jiggy, ja ? Or is the jury in the joint in a jam? Jeez, (how do I turn it off?)
Normal service will be resumed asap….Just a jiffy…
I can confirm Osho’s insights with findings from my own top-secret research facility.
It’s a classic example of Unsafe Sects!
Jim & co were probably waiting for the second coming, got so disappointed it never came, that they went.
Lardy Lardy, Crossty-insanity is a death cult so is Moha-mad-ism drinking koolaid from the allah-hoo crapbar, it’s shi’ite!
We all drink the koolaid from when we are born really, then the skoolaid, the ruleaid, the foolaid till we are (hee-haw)…muleaid.
Humans are not the only species who are lemmings, following eachother off the cliff, just perennial favourites and gold medallists.
Homo S.A.P.(sad & pathetic)-iens as the default setting.
Is it so bad that the sheeple natural deselect themselves from the gene pool?
Obviously Jesus had issues coming from a single parent family and all (“Son, you’re dad’s a ghost”), and I think that’s the root of it all, not enough love, or the right sort of love from mama/papa then slavery, followed by a long slow nervous breakdown…
Hee-haw and meeehhh….
So kids the moral of the story is always practice Safe Sects with lots of
ejoke-ulation, carry protection, pull out when you need to, and watch out for kinky S&M practitioners.
*Religion – clinically proven to mess with your mind, available at all out of date stockists.
‘ ‘watch out for kinky S&M practitioners.’ I hear you, Dom. That dirty devil Arpana is raving on about bondage and freedom. I think he should keep his sexual practices to himself. This is, afterall, a spiritual blog site. Lets stick to the thread and discuss the alarming similarities between Jimmy Jones and our beloved master, Osho. Did Jim Jones mix up his LSD stash with rat poison? Was it all a strange game or a little insane? We’ll get to the bottom of this yet, without having to pull our shanti pants down.
Well blow me, I thought Arps was a she. Is he transgender and kinky too? Should have known, thx for the tip-off. Donner und Blitzen, tie me up and spank me, (in an SS uniform of course).
Parmartha,
tell truthfully with the hand on the heart, if Bhagwan had told his people at Rajneeshpuram , “Let we all die fighting or let we make mass departure for that planet which is more evolved, more loving, more human; how many would have resisted such a call? ( hypothetical situation)
This answer of yours will bring us back to the theme of this thread, ” The Psychology of the follower”.
shantam prem says:
>> how many would have resisted such a call?
To even be considering such a question means you haven’t understood what kind of man Osho was. He actually surrendered himself so they didn’t have to come in and get him.
Not sure of your meaning here Vartan. Osho fled the Ranch in Autumn of 1985 and was arrested in North Carolina. He did not surrender to the authorities, and whilst I have an open mind many still believe there was an attempt to get him out of the States in the hired Lear Jet and start afresh somewhere else.
Of course you may be speaking allegorically, and simply stating that Osho was in a sense already surrendered to whatever – but I was not sure.
I meant what I said. Leading up to his exit flight he was being buzzed daily by helicopters… Do you think it would have been possible to get him out from under all that scrutiny? Because if the answer is no, then we have been subjected to even more theater.
Shantam
The argument of many is that Osho avoided a blood bath simply by leaving the commune when the national guard were over the hill avoiding the need for their invasion to arrest him.
I am not qualified to comment on this view, but interested in others who may be.
I only know to answer your question Shantam that a small group of which I was one, had our emergency exit route from the Ranch planned and mapped, and certainly would not have joined any armed resistance to the national guard, but would have high tailed it out of there with great alacrity.
Shantam,
you sometimes seem uninformed, or see the whole world of sannyas history with rose tinted specs.
Sadly there were many weapons on the Ranch and there were those who had been taught to use them. Osho used to speak in lecture in 1985 with guards holding weapons alongside him…. a crazy scenario. Sheela’s doing, but crazy. For a start mistakes can so easy happen with weapons.
Sheela and her gang may or may not have put up some resistance to the National Guard, but I and my small coterie of friends were not going to wait round to find out! Boy Scouts we were, as they say, “Be prepared”…. …
We were a generation who grew up thinking of ourselves as rebels, but scratch beneath the surface and find problems with authority. Submission, rebellion. All the same thing, all on the same spectrum.
The ashram committee is such an object for people to work though authority trips, or not.
Osho (Brian) Rajneesh always struck me as someone with huge problems, unresolved problems with authority.
Arpana says:
>> Osho (Brian) Rajneesh always struck me as someone with huge problems, unresolved problems with authority.
Remember the way he send in his cronies before he came himself? I think his problems are much deeper than that and probably border on sociopathy.
If I remember correctly, the line on the weapons was that they were there as a deterrent to make any government agency considering invading the ranch to think twice, that they would have to reckon with us not being a push over. The weapons were very visible and that was a deliberate strategy. No one knows if they were to be used in a worst case scenario.
I was under the impression, to be incorporated as a city, the place had to have a weapon wielding police force.
I’m not saying your wrong. That’s the explanation I picked up!
Being a city defintley conferred the right to a police force and for them to carry weapons, whether the weapons were a obligatory part of that is an interesting point. Never the less, it would not have been nessary to make such a flagrant display of them i.e., the semi-automatics touted in Buddha Hall and on the daily drive by.
Like Dharmen,
one has to have an open mind about whether the weapons would have ever been used. And an American city might well, as Arpana says, need to have a statutory weaponed police force, but that could have been much more minimal and discreet.
The very public display of weapons at drive by and at the lectures seemed crazy to me. Sheela and her gang were paranoid, and were always thinking that Osho was a target of assasination, and I did hear that argument used by them for the weapons.
Shantam et al who were NOT around at that time really need to understand that a number of sannyasins “dropped” sannyas at that time and specifically because of the weapons. He also needs to take on board the fact that many like myself saw it as a very dangerous development.
If there were serious validated assasination plots, etc then at precisely that moment the organisation should have left American soil and its weapons culture far behind. Did you see any weapons surrounding Osho in Nepal or in Crete in 1986. No, not at all.
Was there a single preconceived notion anyone may have had about spirituality, spiritual masters, meditation etc, that didn’t get smashed, battered, challenged at tha time.
The goalposts were never in the same place on a day to day basis.
On reflection I was permanently bewildered, and worse, ( Was one of the three most difficult times of my life.) without being able to say yes to that, or own that at the time.
There are some interesting details here … like when the first guns appearing, the use of private security firm, etc. (I was looking to see if they had ‘conceal permits’ – it looks like only Jayananda did – without permits the guns have-to-be on display.)
Paranoia, weapons emerge at Rajneeshee enclave (part 11 of 20)
http://www.oregonlive.com/rajneesh/index.ssf/1985/07/paranoia_weapons_emerge_at_raj.html
Parmartha says:
>> Like Dharmen,
one has to have an open mind about whether the weapons would have ever been used.
The best part is that they were never used, and whether we liked it or not, we did get our lesson in tyranny. In time we are going to learn to call Sheela “a device” and the cycle will be complete.
I am jumping the gun (boom boom) here because Arpana’s post hasn’t been put up yet …
The reason we firstly had the guns was because to hold a festival you had to have a visibly armed police force. So they trained us as an alternative to having them do the job.
The best exit plan must have been agreed by everybody concerned. The way I see it is that from the moment Osho called in the American authorities, and right up to point of his death he was under CIA control. Pune2 was effectively a house-arrest. I should go even further and say that Pune3 is still under CIA control. We just stepped on the wrong toes.
Dear Readers,
Can you help?
I have been following people all my life. When I found my Guru, Hayim Deewan, I followed him. Then he said, “Quit stalking me, or I’ll call the police”. But I knew it was a test and eventually out of compassion he took me on as a disciple.
Since then I’ve been working 18 hr days, 7 days a week. I sold my house and gave him all my money, to build the new paradise on earth and release my attachments. My partner also moved into his luxury villa to commit herself more fully to serving his needs. She assures me that this will eventually bring us closer together in the guru’s grace.
I shouldn’t really complain but tomorrow we have to cut off all communication with the outside world, to take things to the next level.
So this could be my last chance to voice my concern.
The blessings of my guru, have been as large as he is.
I used to sit around getting depressed and take drugs all day , but I’m too exhausted for that now.
My time management was a mess , now every minute of the day is planned for me. How liberating!
My belief system was all over the place. Now there’s only one dog-ma to follow “Guru knows best”.
He says that though it may feel like I’m working like a “dog”, just by reversing the word, it becomes a pointer to……”god”! How supremely wise he is.
He says he is preparing us all, to go over the edge into the rapture.
Still before that happens, what is the difference between disciplehood and slavery? Am I just not surrendered enough?
By his grace
Swami Mick Stupp
Swami Mick Stupp , the only difference there is , of the spelling & enough is never enough , thats what i heard from a master , who was stalking me , I forgot his name .
Anyway , its always by his grace
Ma Stuck Up
Blessings Ma Stuck Up. Thankyou for sharing. I want to ‘follow’ you, but I don’t understand any more than before. Still Guruji says it’s better to feel people with our hearts than to try and understand them with our minds, which is just as well, because he is incomprehensible most of the time. You certainly put me in a no and never mind space!
But it’s good to have some well considered female input. Guruji normally restricts our contact with the opposite sex, as men he says especially, need to transcend their bodily desires to evolve spiritually. Out of compassion he has taken all the karma upon himself, of fulfilling women’s needs, which he says still require proper channeling into the ocean of love, which only he can provide. How truly selfless and amazing he is!
Anyway, I’ve decided to put my total trust in him. Death after all is just a doorway to a better life. I’m sure it will be uplifting and joyful all going together consciously, perhaps holding hands and singing.
Posting here was my last link with this earthly plane. Given the response or lack of it, there’s nothing to keep me bound anymore. Hallelujah! See you on the other side.
Swami Mick Stupp , thank you for your blessings & all .
my guruji says to thank whenever anyone compliments , at the same time says ‘give no heed to to kind of compliments , especially from the opposite sex ‘ , in fact he confuses me even more , when he tries to simplify .
he also says ‘ don’t take any side , always be in the middle ‘ ( sometimes i think my life was less complicated before meeting him ) he always emphasises ‘ to keep on moving , cherewaity cherewaity ‘ .
You speak with great kavitas, and your guru has hidden shallows that I cannot fathom. Still I can feel his emptiness coming through you, filling you with a fool feeling. I’m sure I would want to touch his lotus feet, (if they were pre-washed.)
“he also says ‘ don’t take any side , always be in the middle ‘”
I’m wondering if you’re involved in a threesome with him ? I can see how the encouragement to cherewaity cherewaity (“keep on moving”) would fit in well there.
one more thing he also says ‘ twosome is the way to go ‘ & he is alone most of the time . wonder what / where his cherewaity cherewaity is indicating , probably I’ll need a she guruji to tell me that !
Well I haven’t been to tucson but there’s a town called Intercourse in Pennsylvania. You could try pointing his cherewaity in that direction.
well you can email him directly guruji@hotmail.com , I have to wake up early for suryanamaskar , highly recommended by him !
So many gurujis, does he live in the same parallel universe as gandhooji?
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I like the part where he says that he is prepared to live with uncertainty, as if he had another option. doh
What we do, is what we have been put here to do. The answer to meaning and purpose lays in our actions, our questions. Why is it so difficult for most to immerse themselves in the natural plan, and they have to look for rubbish metaphysical realities?
The Universe is Fine-Tuned just for us
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thank you Arpana for sharing this link
@ Kavita
Heres another good one.
Really enjoying listening to this guy.
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Arpana if he were alive , I would Skype him !
Talking to him would have been Y Fantastico.
If your listening Richard I’ll buy you a beer any day.
Bodhi Vartan,
I am fully aware that Osho´s spiritual movement has not even a space for a slap what to say about blood bath.
The point which I felt like stressing is that spiritual leaders Including Osho, (let us say, who was not a leader but friend) have this much influence on the disciples that it is impossible to say no to their Yes.
May be the complete surrender to master´s whims is a technique to break the ego, the analytical faculty.
Yes to yes of one´s master I can understand, but the high priests taking position after his death want to have the same position and faithful ones don´t resist, this makes me always amazed.
shantam prem says:
>> May be the complete surrender to master´s whims is a technique to break the ego, the analytical faculty.
A clever guy called Osho wanted to try something and we said ok. And he tried it and it didn’t work. Or so many think.
“What was he trying to do?” To create a utopia? I don’t think so.
“What was he trying to do?” (Until you can answer that question you will be lost.) Those who think that egos don’t care what happens after they die, don’t know egos. Those who don’t care what happens to their children after they die, cannot possibly love their children. And if you have any grandchildren you would understand even more at what I am getting at.
Osho’s vision (and whole life) was to get as many people as possible to know about him … sometimes he got it right and sometimes he got it wrong. But by jove he tried.
Osho Rajneesh. Mr Me.
Shantypants thinks, ‘May be the complete surrender to master´s whims is a technique to break the ego, the analytical faculty.’
Why not add short curcuiting one’s critical faculties to the point that you don’t have a clue about anything?
Well kiss my chuddies. On the same page, lokeshorts.
I just posted this on Shitmapants’ ‘highway to hell’….
Personally I think these things always sound better translated into german…. Jawohl mein Shantih-Panzer,
“Möge der vollkommenen Hingabe an Master-Launen sein ist eine Technik, um das Ego, die analytische Fähigkeit zu brechen.”
(Von das Osho Blutbad)
Dominic muses….
The relationship with a ‘master’ or mentor needs to be a free one, respecting and encouraging one’s autonomy.
The word disciple has unfortunately come to mean simply follower. It’s latin root disc-ere means to learn. Can there be learning if you are externally oriented, obeying another, while disconnecting from yourself and not listening to your own inner feelings and guidance?
You become robotic, hypnotised, obedient and zombie-like. It’s not a love relationship but one of dependency and suppression of your uniqueness.
It strikes me as funny how often unique teachers are.Yet how little interaction there is between them, and how conformist their followers are.
I never related to osho as a person and there was no possibility of doing so. I’m sure he was flawed like the rest of us, only exaggerated by his exalted position. It was more to do with a certain frequency that he generated and imbued the buddhafield with, that was and still is magnetic. It was a rainbow ‘spirituality’ unlike anything that had come before, with for the most part, an amazing and creative bunch of people. In terms of energy, risk-taking and ‘naked’ fun, most other groups were tame and lame by comparison, though not without merit.
Doesn’t matter life goes on, but yes I do miss it from time to time.
Let me take my rose tinted specs away, and this article is about the psychology of the disciples…
Was there a single instance in America when some sannyasin tells to Osho aka Bhagwan of that time, what kind of base less game you are playing?
An Indian comes on tourist visa, his followers buy the barren land and create a new city with the name Rajneeshpuram, (It shows, where ever Osho goes, carries his Indian-ity with)
This city in the most powerful nation on earth, not only has a weird name but have their protection force lanced with AK 47 assault rifles!
I don´t think Jain Sons, Cloth merchants from Jabalpur had invested a single rupee on that project. Why the western disciples, the intelligent people invested their life savings on that scheme which was boomed to doomed from the very beginning.
About rose tinted specs; can a disciple of that time dare to say that any democratically elected Government was bound to take those steps to pack the cardboard Lotus Paradise of new man.
Disciples simple follow, otherwise they will not be disciples. And with Osho, as I have seen, only after getting a life partner from the tribe, disciples eyes were getting opened, ” Where ever I go, my master is with.”
If only, mein Shantih-Panzer, you hadn’t been such a spineless tosser,
and taken sannyas then, rather than wait until it was safe and we didn’t have to wear a mala and red clothes, things might have been so different.
shantam prem says:
>> I don´t think Jain Sons, Cloth merchants from Jabalpur had invested a single rupee on that project
I am fed up of people taking pot-shots at Osho with their heads so far up their asses, I can see the top of their head, every time they open their mouth.
At that point in time Osho was an author of 200 best selling books that were translated in many languages. To all that you have to add something for the techniques he invented and were practiced in the ashram and all over the world. From all that OSHO NEVER TOOK A RUPEE and all the proceeds were lost in the communes. To the end, as an author of over 350 volumes, apart from his toys which also belonged to the commune, nobody knows how much money the man generated and is still capable of generating.
BV said.
I am fed up of people taking pot-shots at Osho with their heads so far up their asses, I can see the top of their head, every time they open their mouth.
Am I misreading this?
You appear to be saying you wouldn’t be so fed up if the depth of anal penetration of the head was less!!
Probably.
Last word game.
He actually surrendered himself so they didn’t have to come in and get him.
Bodhi Vartan, when you will take your rose tinted specs away?
30 years ago, there was no CNN but still enough cameras to record the history of that time.
Please, tell the complete story without moulded facts from any side.
Apart from Kavita, I’m guessing from the companeros, that SN is a sausage party.
actually dominic , i very often question myself about this , i haven’t a found a definite answer to that .
I am the last person to take pot shots at Osho, Bodhi Vartan.
I am too lazy to compile my posts, but it is can be a record of a kind, not many disciples have written so many words and paragraphs in favour of Master´s complete work; the work which should not be censored or corrupted or curtained because it can make the grip of the self imposed chosen ones difficult in a hostile world.
The age of kissing the ass kind of devotion has not produced finer results, neither the denial about the shortcomings of one´s own chosen path.
Quite often life situations get accumulated in the brain like pictures and whenever one writes something, these pictures in the memory bank dictate the words.
When I wrote-
I don´t think Jain Sons, Cloth merchants from Jabalpur had invested a single rupee on that project, satire was on the Jain clans.
When I was taking tours in the ashram, almost every site seer from Jabalpur used to tell proudly, ” Osho is from Jabalpur.”
I wouldn’t worry about it. I just used your comment to say something I’ve been dying to say for ages. Lokesh has no doubts about your discipleshiphood.
Shri Shantam delares,. ‘Quite often life situations get accumulated in the brain like pictures and whenever one writes something, these pictures in the memory bank dictate the words.’
This is very deep subject matter. Perhaps this could be a new thread. The man never ceases to amaze me. How does he come up with this stuff? Is he serious?
Loki, You have a lot to learn about the Indian mind. Osho eventually gave up with it. I think Shantam should do the same.
Lokesh,
can I know your sun sign, moon sign?
You fit quite well in a certain kind of typology!
re.asstrology.
shantam….
i can see from here that you`ve got a major planet permanently retrograde at a critical degree in Uranus…
also.. a couple of ripe mangos and a sausage rising in your midheaven (88-90) seem to have caused a bit of permanent damage to the orbs in your chuddies.too!
prognosis: enlidlment in this lifetime.
I’m over the moon and under the sun, and never been interested in astrology. My birthday is 11 December 1951. Pure coincidence, a 365 to one possability.
not many disciples have written so many words about jain cloth merchant family business satires who have not invested a rupee in cardboard paradises of new man from the Jabalpur tourist office.
I am too lazy to compile my posts but as a record of shortcomings of results of being dictated to by images seen through rose-tinted glasses in the brain that rational western mind cannot understand, of porno-based spiritual metaphors,2 for 1 offers on meat pies in lidl,german social security offices,the management team of her majesty ,and the memories of 88-90, my words should not be corrupted or curtained or carpeted as I take a self-imposed grip on the contents of my chuddies in a hostile world.
ass-kissing kind of religion has produced finer results than review of own shortcomings while reading daily mail,watching CNN and seeking enlightenment from organisation that has gone from global google facebook profile to corner shop of local supplier of western market.
osho is from Jabalpur!
i am from Jullundur!
but high-flying millionairess who gives the head to husband with pride will produce better results than ass-kissing religion based on images accumulated in the brain and floating in the collapsed and bankrupt memory bank which dictates the words like famous devotional Punjabi poet Al-Jabbar Kebab from the Jullundur!
One common technique of mind control is to create an us and them mentality, deflecting attention away from us and unifying against a them.
Politicians do this all the time. When there seems no hope and the enemy is coming, suicide takes back control of the situation.
http://brainz.org/10-most-notorious-suicide-cults-history/
dominic says:
>> One common technique of mind control is to create an us and them mentality,
It is very hard not to create ‘them’ once we have created ‘us’. I don’t think it is a trick, it’s just reality. Look how easy it is for all of ‘us’ to gang up on poor old Shanti.
Shanti created ‘us’ and for all we know he could be manipulating ‘us’ …
“for all we know he could be manipulating ‘us’”
Shantam has a fooly open clown chakra and is playing us like a violin, or we are all his cuckoo clocks and winding us up. He is sitting at his keyboard, wearing a monocle, stroking a white cat, chanting mwaahaha… Thriving on ‘negative attention’. A free jazz genius. A performance artist providing us with ejoculation.
He is the walrus …goo goo ga choo…
Yeah, yeah, man, this is getting really heavy, man. Shanti might be one of us! Heaven forbid! Lord knows the depth of such an outrage.
*World has got a new kind of crowd, where everyone thinks oneself as Individual.
*Google has a global reach, but it does not mean it is a Pakistani company!
* Devageet has written a book. Its cost price sorry retail price is 24 Dollars.
It is about first Buddha on the dental chair.
Title is so beautiful, it can push the buttons of many. How come, Osho is the first Buddha in the dental chair.
Had Ramana Maharishi no tooth problmes?
Was Punja Ji going to the foot path dentist?
Being older than Osho in age, had he no experience to be in dental chair. Same is about J Krishnamurti.
As I see fact is Osho is the one, who wanted to create an international brand himself rather than relying on the future disciples, as in the case of Buddha and Jesus etc.
Sorry, I don´t want to take the pot shots on the disciples, who think pouring Coca Cola on the roots will change an Indian mystic into an Hollywood´s Deepak Chopra!
Is there no end to your logical phallusy and it’s short comings?
Transcen-dental medication required 4ever.
shantam prem says:
>> * Devageet has written a book. Its cost price sorry retail price is 24 Dollars.
It is about first Buddha on the dental chair.
Before using that title, why didn’t Devageet think THAT HE WAS THE DENTIST, AND IT WAS HIS CHAIR, and if anything inappropriate was going on with the chair, THAT IT WAS HIS RESPONSIBILITY? If he couldn’t have done the right thing then, he could have done the right thing now, AND KEPT HIS MOUTH SHUT. He must be running out of money or something.
SN will run an article or so on the book when it is published which is apparently imminent.
The book was written ages ago, but the Ashram refused to publish it. It has been waiting around for years until this current publisher decided to publish it.
I imagine it is to some major degree about Osho’s relationship with nitrous oxide, if the book runs true, not dentistry! So of particular moment to those interested in hallucingenics.
the ebook is already available from iTunes or Amazon and it is less than 5 euros, I was pretty disappointed, it is very, very bland
A ‘dis’ appointment with the dentist. Are we surprised? Strip drm and upload. (I didn’t say that!)
meanwhile in a parallel multiverse..
the publication of the book
“dialogues with the first Buddha in a dental chair by the first corgi-registered dentist swami devadent” is under way,and swami jabberwocky of Jullundur presses the look inside button on amazon….
“…..om mani padme hum…
turn the dial up to eleven devadent
but it only goes up to 10,bhagwan
the mind is always afraid…eleven..
but bhag…
the mind needs that extra push off the cliff..
yes,bhagwan…
ah that’s better,tears are coming to my eyes..
no more chattering from your mind devadent or its adios to the big disciple trip and back to pulling teeth in the suburbs..ok?
yes,bhagwan….
ah…I am there now,with Buddha,moses,mahakashyap,spinal tap…
I am reminded of a man in my village,he loved me very much,but i had to push him off the cliff..he was so stupid
and my father said..now what will happen you have pushed him off the cliff?
so I ,smoked some opium with the village barber,cut off my hair,and on the way home,i fell into a pile of dung and came up smelling of roses..
hello devadent,where are you?
I`m here.
but you were on the ceiling or I heard footsteps outside the room were they yours,my god you have an om sign sticking out of your bald patch..
yes bhagwan…
and turn up the dial,
stop messing about,i am not a democrat I am a dictator is that clear?
yes boss.
thank god I don’t have to pretend to be enlightened like that old ponce krishnamurti although I do have to put up with idiots like you…
om mani padme hum……
I leave you my whipped cream….
Frank urine trouble for taking the piss out of Osho.
“I do have to put up with idiots like you…”
Seems he was pretty mean to his dentist, but they have fillings too, you know.
“Sitting silently,
doing nothing,
spring comes
and I forget what I was going to say.”
Thanks for an early morning laugh, Frank.
If you haven’t already seen Kumare, I highly recommend you do. Great fun movie that exposes human need of holy joe projection.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1865425/
lokesh.thanks.
its on my to do list.
For the sheeple a lot of it is on ewe tube.
I will defiantly buy Devageet´s book.
It is his soft defiance against the A&J management blunder team.
me too.
I also missed the toilet bowl and pissed a bit on the seat this morning just to show them how I feel!
harrumph!
This time it’s personal eh?
Urine control frank.
I’m going to sit in the middle on this one.
The collective J.J. insanity has a conformity marks with the daily life, dispense of our responsibility in favour onto sick people and even sacrifice our lifes out of ignorance. Calm and painful suicide, possible firmly fixed and away of truth trapped by mind control lies. The worst form of suicide allows others dominate lives by threat of force.
Are you shantam or close relative, or is this more indian word salad?
Anyway I think I agree.
To be involved with Osho is to
be both follower and independent
of him at the same time.
Follower and not follower.
Riding two horses at once.
An authority figure who isn’t authoritarian,
unlike the authority figures most first
generation sannyasins spent their childhood with.
Two ji-jis (gee-gees)? … E questrian, is that a load of crap?
“Riding two horses at once” …you’re giving me night mares.
I might be an ass, I’ll give it free rein and mule it over.
No…only one horse of course…neti neti….nellie nellie
~ Donkey Haughty
Sigh.
Neeeiiiigghhh clippity-clop clippity-clop..
Most humans have core shame…I’m unworthy, unlovable, not ok etc, as I am. This renders them vulnerable to manipulation through fear and compliance.
“An authority figure who isn’t authoritarian,”… I don’t think so.
Osho was certainly authoritarian at times (as opposed to leadership) in my book. ‘The surrender to me and the commune’ gave way to ‘I’m your friend’ after the ranch debacle as people left. He dropped the wearing of robes, to people’s delight, which pissed him off. As things settled down, a more moderate authoritarianism crept back in, (and three flavors of robes).
Are those who dont have core shame, or have it in bundles, those who become psychopathic leaders?
Perhaps the bundles. To want to control others is to protect or defend against the crushing feelings of helplessness and hopelessness that would have been overwhelming to a young child.
Just my .02 cents.
(Perhaps Osho too had been on the Jain gang… Sorry frozen ipun app, can’t turn it off!)
Fair comment, but I personally didn’t
experience him that way.
On the contrary, and for want of better way of putting this,
he’s the only individual I’ve ever had dealings with, who
hasn’t given me approval or disapproval.
I’ve had nothing from him to make me feel that I am a special
sannyasin in a good or bad way.
Sounds like you had a more personal relationship than most. Can’t comment on this. Perhaps not a special sannyasin but special, with a new name and a lassoed neck
I’m quite comfortable with Osho being less than perfect, and a mixture of dark and light at different times.
So yes authoritarianism, narcissism, inflation it’s all in there, seems to me.
Why the need to idealize gurus so much?
Perhaps again the defence at feeling abandoned as a child by our parents and as a corollary god or existence.
I’m not idealising him.
(I did. Of course I did. )
He just occupies a particular role in my life still.
I see the dark and light, but interpret that differently, apparently, to how you do, and I am not saying I’m right and your wrong.
(Blind men. Elephants etc.)
I experienced the mala as a millstone round my neck, but decided to stick with it till I didn’t, and succeeded in that endeavour.
Gassho. “No approval or disapproval” of course.
It is good to look in the rear view mirror every now and again, and swap notes. And then…..Ah This!
You can usually spot authoritarianism by the seating arrangements. Do the seats face Mecca, i.e. the guru/teacher, or very rare, in a circle, even when numbers would allow it. Listening to someone ona podium for more than 15 mins without follow-up is going to put you in a suggestible trance, light hypnosis, like tv.
I can remember saying anything ‘negative’ or ‘critical’ being quashed, or make people angry and distancing themselves.
The Osho times could have taught Pravda a thing or two.
Somewhere Vartan and others seems to indicate that the Rajneeshpuram Festivals HAD to be, as a legal requirement, policed, and that is how the guns arose. I dont think he was around actually as a commune member at those times?
The First Annual World Celebration in 1982 , which was said to have drawn 6,000 people to Rajneeshpuram, in July of that year, and produced no home grown policemen. So I cant see how it was a requirement?
That year one small local security firm was hired, but just five people as I recall, and the rumour was that Osho himself did not want any security at all, but Sheela overrode that. One of these custodians became a sannyaisn.
Such an arrangement could have continued for the other Festivals, or better still reversed to what Osho had publicly wanted. I doubt very much whether Rajneeshpuram “had” to have a Police Force, and have never seen any evidence to date to demonstrate that.
You are more likely to be correct than me as I am picking most of my info from the web. Below is Osho’s version. Interesting detail regarding payment …
“And we had nothing—just thirty semi-automatic guns, which are available in America to any citizen. These belonged to the police force of the commune, which was paid by the American government because the police force was part of the American police force, even though all the people were sannyasins who had taken the police training. So they were afraid that “Although the police force is ours, it is going to fight for the commune, not for us.”
http://www.oshoworld.com/biography/innercontent.asp?FileName=biography8/08-22-conspiracy.txt
I think even the diplomats and foreign service officials in the Gulf countries are not too much educated.
Otherwise I can imagine in “Gulf News” job opportunities for trained new age psychologists.
Your work is to convince young masses, that they are reactionaries and not rebels, that they have an issue with the authority figures, that they have unresolved issues with their father therefore all this rage against the established and well loved regimes.
PS_ As a pubic service, I would be glad to forward the news cutting to many people I know.
Wow a little psychology 101 might really revolutionize the middle east dystopia. Unfortunately the Arab winter replaces one bunch of male medi-evil clowns with other more stone age ones.
some here have doubted what would have happened had the National Guard come over the hill in 1985.
But it is as well to note this rather psychopathic statement by Sheela:
She discussed the incorporation dispute around the cvity of Rajneeshpuram in the Rajneesh Times of July 13, 1984. A casual reader might have thought she was describing a city the size of Philadelphia:
“If people can legally come to tear down the city and the community, allowing persecution of hundreds of thousands of people, who peacefully live their religious belief, then the law is impotent.
“I will be the first person to paint their bulldozers red, with love and grace, by being a red carpet for them. Not only that, I will make sure a feast is ready and prepared so that after the murderers have satisfied their blood thirst, they can remove the bad taste of blood and can celebrate our deaths…”
Are we so sure what might have happened later, especially before September, 1985, when of course Sheela “left the commune” !
Would have sounded good in iambic pentameter Shakespeak on a stage. Doubt she would have offered herself as a squashed tomato. After seeing Sheela and the ranch I returned my mala.
She was one crazee mofo. Not a device but irresponsibility on the part of the CEO, and he was pisssssed with his protegee.
A mini-series of it like the borgias would be nice.
Parmartha says:
>> But it is as well to note this rather psychopathic statement by Sheela
Or amphetamin rantings …
Parmatha,
If Sheela can over rule Osho in the matters of administration, is there some surety others will not do the same, specially in the situations when master is sick or dead?
How so ever bitchy Sheela may be, I think somewhere it is inhuman to solely blame her.
As if she has fulfilled the long anticipated need of a female judas, now we can all relax. Tao has become complete!
Part of my purpose Shantam is not to nail Sheela alone, but her gang, and also those of us who somehow got duped at different levels to go along with her. I also want people to at least give credence, based on such statements, still in the public domain, so that anyone with the copy of the Rajneesh Times of July, 1984 can see how crazy she had become by that time.
It is surprising how many people in and outside of sannyas basically see Sheela as a sort of complicated fall guy and that Osho was the real perpetrator. As you know I dont share that view, I think he may have been sort of asleep, and somehow switched off, but there are clear examples, even early in the Ranch time when his wishes were overridden by Sheela. For example on the need to employ a security company with guns in 1982 which he did not want.
Anther feature of psychopathic leadership is excommunication.
Michael Barnett also known as Anand Somendra was a very well known therapy group leader in 1982 and arguably brought a lot of sannyasins to Osho in the preceding six years. On the Ranch that year, Barnett had refused to follow the schedule arranged for him by “The Dowager Duchesses,” as he called the collection of women running the Ranch. Good for him!
Then after his mala was taken away, sannyasin friends treated him as if he were invisible. An April 1983 newsletter from Sahajam Rajneesh Meditation Center in Perth, Australia, spelled out the then movement’s policy in such cases.
“Bhagwan (Osho) recently said that He has been waiting for a few people, who had been hanging around without growing at all, to drop sannyas of their own accord…From now on all these people will be known as ‘the late Swami’ or ‘the late Ma’ because as far as sannyas is concerned, they are dead. Please don’t contact these ghosts and allow them to exploit you; and they will contact you because their whole purpose and interest is exploitation.”
I myself dont believe that Osho composed such edicts, but that they were written by Sheela and her gang and simply said to be in Osho’s name.
I recall a conversation with a ma. (The Ma was OK. She was just having a rat bag day, and as far as I know felt well towards me for speaking out. Eventually anyway. ) who had been screeching at me to surrender, and me snarling back, submission and surrender are not the same thing.
Fact is loud and clear, Present trustees of Osho´s work are using the same tacts like Sheela´s mind. Using Osho´s thumb impression on the blank papers.
and I am sure, if some how chairman of Osho management is dethroned(chance of that happening is bit more than zero), hundreds of group leaders therapists and old timers will pour their insights out at various Osho publications; We had always the gut feeling, it was all obvious in black and white….
History is a proof, boot lickers are the ones who use the boots to kick the broken statues of great men and women!