Wise Men and Foolish Seekers on the Osho Path

The grand old wise men on this site, although not agreeing about everything, do tend to agree on certain things.

For example, that they are wise, and that their wisdom is derived from their lives which have passed through myriad stages of having been unwise, duped, deluded, inflated etc… This is why they can look at the Resort,the Ranch  and other religious and psychological follies and declare that these new seekers are deluded or at least lost.

Well, dear old readers, I invite you to think back to when you were deluded and lost, a state that you may laugh at wryly now…  If you had met your older self telling you, for example  as the esteemed advaitist Lokesh does, that the seeker must forget accruing more experiences and focus on the experiencer.

Would you as a green nouveau seeker desperate to get a bit of action in the spiritual and material world been able to see the truth of it? Or would you have just ignored him as an obvious has-been old fart, pushed him aside and got on with some serious heavy-breathing, wacko living and energetically exploring your shadow ?
So this may raise the question: What is the wisest stance for the wise old man/fart who sees the folly of seeking?

If he declares the ego-shattering truth that there is indeed nowhere to go and nothing to do, does he run the risk of sounding like Peter Cooks fading rock star alter-ego, Eric Daley who proclaimed:
“I’ve slept with loads of women and taken loads of drugs, but if you think that by sleeping with thousands of women and taking thousands of drugs, you are gonna  have a good time, I`ve got this to say: “don`t”?

Or should the wise man keep schtum and let the young fools motor on down their roads of folly, and fall off their cliff edges and last resorts, even encouraging them in their foolishness in the knowledge that  they too, like him, will sooner or later find their true way home?

Frank

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84 Responses to Wise Men and Foolish Seekers on the Osho Path

  1. Arpana says:

    That is the most difficult thing in the world — to help the other to be himself — because that is against your ego. Your ego would like to make imitators of people. You would like everybody to imitate you; you would like to become the archetype and have everybody follow you. Then your ego would be very, very fulfilled. You would think of yourself as the blueprint and everybody just has to follow you. You become the center and everybody becomes the false.

    Osho.
    Come Follow To You, Vol 2
    Chapter #6
    Chapter title: Politics And Love

  2. Lokesh says:

    Good question, Frank.
    We recently had some very charming new age seekers pop in for a visit at our humble abode, It was an interesting few days. The trio had come to visit Ibiza to clean up the energy. ‘Energy’ was a word much used by these sweet people.
    On our first meeting, at an asthanga yoga centre run by an elderly sannyasin woman, who looks great for someone in her seventies, the young women of the trio was giving a small gathering a short discourse on ‘heavy karma’. I asked what exactly she meant by this much bandied about expression and she eventually admitted that she hadn’t a clue. That was just for starters. Over the course of a few days I became aquainted with these people, who are actually becoming established as energy cleaners. Pass me the psychic feather duster please. What it all boils down to is that these people, in my old eyes at least, were completely naive yet possessed something worthwhile in terms of enthusiasm, optimism and, for want of a better expression, positive energy.
    My wife, who is amongst many other things extremely intuitive, really dug the trio. When I voiced opinions,worthy of a cynical Scot, my wife told me to get out of my head or some such throw away line. I enjoyed meeting those people, who somehow represent the current new age wave that is splashing around the planet. I’d choose psychic cleaners over stealth bomber pilots dropping cluster bombs on ethnics every day for the rest of the Kali Yuga.
    On a more personal level, I see much of today’s spiritual seekers as a wee bit flakey when it comes down to it. I suppose this has to do with the extremes that my life took me to and what I learned from those extremes.
    My seven years with Osho would be a good example. My commitment was 100% and I have no regrets about that wonderful time. These days, Osho has become respectable, something that would have been well nigh impossible to maintain were he alive. It is really quite incredible, if one takes into consideration the old boy’s track record, which was pretty scandalous.
    I rarely read Osho books, never watch any of his discourses, don’t practice any of his meditation techniques, but if someone asked me if I am a sannyasin I’d answer ‘yes’. I don’t take my limited ego self very seriously…except when my wee wifie naggs too much. Saying I’m a sannyasin does not mean very much to me. A bit of a mystery, I suppose one could say.
    Discovering Advaita and meeting a seasoned teacher like H W L Poonja was somehow a blessing for me. It helped put my time with Osho in perspective amongst other thing. Like Osho, I kind of doubt old Poonjaji was actually enlightened in a Hindu/Buddhistic sense…but like Osho he was, one on one, quite a mind-blowing phenomena.
    Today, I lead a quiet and happy life, if you equate happiness with contentment. I’ve no desire to be acknowledged as some sort of special spiritual guy, because I am not. I suppose I can help some people understand a few things about life’s realities, but they aren’t exactly lining up at my front gate in the hope of catching my pearls of wisdom.
    Recently, some friends have suggested to set up shop in the enlightenment business. (plenty of seekers out there with not so many authentic teachers to deliver the goods) Unfortunately, that is one of the rare things my wife and I see eye-to-eye on. You really can’t make a business out of selling the truth. What is the truth; you might well ask at such a juncture. Well, I’m afraid that is perhaps the one thing in life that you will have to find out all by yourself…with a little help from your friends. Therefore I’ll say this much. If someone asks any form of payment for revealing the truth of who and what you really are that person is a fraud. Why? Because if you know the truth and want to share it you will also know the truth, by its very nature, has nothing whatsoever to do with commerce.
    So, to round it off, when Frank asks, ‘Or should the wise man keep schtum and let the young fools motor on down their roads of folly, and fall off their cliff edges and last resorts, even encouraging them in their foolishness in the knowledge that they too, like him, will sooner or later find their true way home?’ I have to reply, if I see someone heading for a fall I’d probably try and warn them. The problem is, this is the voice of experience talking now, that when a person is heading in what appears like a very wrong direction it is often the case that they are hell bent on taking that direction, and in the course of things probably learning a very hard lesson.
    The second time I talked to H W L Poonja he gave me the following advice. ‘Stay here, keep silent, mind your own business, and don’t gossip.’ I wondered about it at the time but now know that following that simple advice is a good recipe for leading a peaceful life. The truth can take many forms but it is always more effective when delivered in a simple manner. So when the female member of the trio of energy cleaners could not explain what she meant by ‘heavy karma’I suggested that in her future talks to people she should keep it simple. I think she got the message.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      Lokesh says:
      … if someone asked me if I am a sannyasin I’d answer ‘yes’. I don’t take my limited ego self very seriously…except when my wee wifie naggs too much. Saying I’m a sannyasin does not mean very much to me. A bit of a mystery, I suppose one could say.

      If you love Osho then the mystery disappears. It might sound corny but I cannot put it any simpler than that. Earlier today I was listening to Swami Arun (I am not selling Swami Arun) and I feel he put it in a really nice way:

      Every sannyasin is a Osho temple – Swami Anand Arun – July 14, 2012

      The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

      Vartan

  3. prem martyn says:

    Lokesh how much do you not pay Truth-Mongerers..the going rate at which I stop paying and listening , purely for reasons of taste you understand, is when they dangle a lottery card in front of my eyes and go nah nah nee nahh nah…after that I rarely understand what these satori specialists are on about as I become temporarily deafened by the sound of what seems like an interminable endless gloating.
    There’s an old sufi story .. once upon time in Ibiza there was a bloke, a lottery card and a german wife.. and one night the genie of the lamp came along in their dreams and gave them a wish.
    The genie wished that he had never ever given them the lottery card numbers for they were now lording it loudly over everyone within earshot which caused a terrific djinn .
    Moral of the story :If you win lots of cash make sure other people wished they’d never heard you mention it, as it tends to colour the atmosphere a shade of green.

    • Lokesh says:

      Martyn, it might be wise to bear in mind that I am, amongst a lot of other things, a professional storyteller.
      A few years back we had a sannyasin friend visiting from Byron Bay. First chance she got she dropped the question. ‘So you guys won the lottery, right?’
      ‘Yes,’ I replied, ‘four million euros.’ Her eyes widened. ‘Well, to be honest, ‘I continued, ‘it was closer to ten million.’ Her eyes nearly popped out of their sockets. ‘But please don’t tell anyone that,’ I said, knowing that was the last thing she would do with such a hot piece of gossip. ‘Thing is,’ I went on, ‘we gave nine million to Oxfam.’
      She jumped out of her seat. ‘You did what?’
      ‘We gave nine milion to Oxfam,’ I repeated.
      She completly lost her cool at this point. ‘You fucking idiots!’ she exclaimed. ‘What the bloody hell did you do that for?’
      ‘Well, you see,’ I began to explain, ‘we were receiving so many phone calls from friends we hadn’t heard from in years, asking if we could help them out financially, that we pretty soon decided to donate the money to a good cause and just keep what we really needed for ourselves.’
      It was at this point she got out a hanky and began to weep. You know, Martyn, some people are ready to believe just about anything.

      • prem martyn says:

        I think I posted one about telling porky pies but SN didn’t publish it, but I wrote another one about a golden goose on my profile.. which also wasn’t publishable… but it was just for you… and its still there…

        Its a shame you aren’t loaded as I was thinking of a TV type life swap (I keep my bird though) for oh I dunno a year ish.. and I could then report back to SN how the ‘experience’ had been…
        Nisargadattabumdiboodoowapashowaddywaddyy..
        Great bloke ..

        Lokesh who gives a monkeys ? Its all about makin it up as you go along anyways.
        good to clear the air though, as some might’ve thought we was running a cartel of the mutual approval society ….But maybe I’m telling Porkies..???(nah I’m a veggy I couldn’t do that )

  4. bodhi vartan says:

    In response to Frank’s main argument relating to the path … there is no path, it’s all a matter of techniques and how they are administered. Many of these techniques come from as far back as the Sumerians and the Egyptians and there use is to control people as individuals and as groups. Over the last few hundred years these techniques were commandeered by secret societies in Europe and through them some families have become very wealthy and powerful. Crowley was first to break ranks and start exposing these techniques by publishing the manuals of a then unknown little German group called the Golden Dawn. These techniques are the same as used by Scientology (stolen by Hubbard from Jack Parsons, Crowley’s US ambassador) and dare I say the same techniques as used in the Osho active meditations. What changes is the setting. The same technique used in a clinical setting becomes a psychic nightmare, whereas in a spiritual setting it becomes an enlightening insight.

    Lovemaking and rape look the same from a distance.

    Vartan

  5. shantam prem says:

    Lucknow, India’s Most(not one of the most) corrupt politicians and burocrates grace this capital city of Utter Pardesh, in population terms, this state could be 13th most populated country of the world.For them it is really Luck_now!
    Herr Punja ji, the new diety of Ramana school of Advaita was living in this city. The advise what he gave to Lokesh, ‘Stay here, keep silent, mind your own business, and don’t gossip.’ is everyday Ginger candy used in that part of India.
    Can you imagine, without this, how hundreds of millions could survive in that part of the world where to get a street cleaner job, thousands of university graduate apply.

  6. Rijul says:

    I think most people entering upon the spiritual path, start out as foolish seekers. Their intention’s, and motive’s are usually to acquire the “feel good experience”. They are not innterested to retreat from untruth, but want to lighten up their caves so that the fiction becomes bearable. From here on, only a few would investigate further, after realising that the experience is not very fruithfull as long as the experiencer is not known.

    My observation is that on the spiritual scene today, most of what is offered has no value for the dedicated seeker of objective reality, other than seeing the false of it.

    You ask: “what is the wicest stance for the wise old man/fart who sees the folly of seeking?” In my view it depends on how many rungs on the leather there would be between the wise and the folly. If the distance is to long, there is nothing that can be done. But if the distance is short, they would reach out to each others, and the folly will be helped..

    You say: “If he declares the ego shattering truth that there is indeed nowhere to go, and nothing to do” This phrase i feel is some of the most used and abused there is, particularly amongst the fashionables on the spiritual scene. It makes me widely sceptical when i hear it, and most often the people that utters it, ignores the reality of the paradox on our level of duality, and use it as an incomplete declaration of our status, that only support the illusion.

    • bodhi vartan says:

      Rijul says:
      “I think most people entering upon the spiritual path, start out as foolish seekers. ……… most often the people that utters it, ignores the reality of the paradox on our level of duality, and use it as an incomplete declaration of our status, that only support the illusion.”

      If there is a problem it’s in the thinking. The young seeker might be considering himself to be a fool but in fact he is the wisest of the bunch. To be dissatisfied with a current condition and start looking for alternative viewpoints is (to me) a sign of intelligence and wisdom. It sounds that you not found.

      You speak of the illusion … What illusion? There is no illusion. It’s all Magic.

      “Magic is “the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with the Will. ANY required change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the proper medium to the proper object. Magic is the Science of understanding oneself and one’s condition. It is the Art of applying that understanding in action.” (Crowley)

      Both Crowley and Osho put that strange little thing called Love at the top of their respective trees. You have to love yourself before you start looking at yourself otherwise it would feel as if you looking down the toilet.

      Vartan

      • Preetam says:

        “Crowley” said: Love must be under will. According “Osho” I understood Love more as a happening instead of bringing it under once will? Are they really speak about the same.

        • Preetam says:

          As I think further… if Human is Love what would it mean in the context. “Love must be under will.” Do I think to far, saying he means, bringing Human (Love) under will. That is quite a bad boy.

          • bodhi vartan says:

            “Love under will” only comes into play when the critical mind is stopping you from being in love with somebody. I generally play a game of … How does their mother or lover see them?

            Osho was more gentle and Crowley more forceful but the message was the same that, love is the law. How you go about loving, it is really is up to you. As long as you do it.

            Vartan

        • Young sannyasin says:

          well said Preetam.

      • Rijul says:

        Vartan says:

        “If there is a problem it’s in the thinking” Or in the perception of the eye that looks in the telescope.

        “The young seeker might be considering himself to be a fool but in fact he is the wisest of the bunch. To be dissatisfied with a current condition and start looking for alternative viewpoints is (to me) a sign of intelligence and wisdom. It sounds that you not found” Paradoxically to your last sentence, but that’s exactly where my journey started.

        “You speak of the illusion … What illusion? There is no illusion. It’s all Magic.” The inquiry into the illusion has indeed been a journey filled with Magic.

        Love has never been “a strange little thing” for me, and i doubt it ever was for Osho, and Crowley as well. Possibly strange, and little for people that are still stuck looking down in the toilet.

  7. chetna says:

    “For example, that they are wise, and that their wisdom is derived from their lives which have passed through myriad stages of having been unwise, duped, deluded, inflated etc… This is why they can look at the Resort ,the Ranch and other religious and psychological follies and declare that these new seekers are deluded or at least lost.”- don’t you think this is a perfect example of a non-wise man, but rather egoistic! We don’t need to be with Osho to learn that the only wise man is the one who admits he does not know.
    I have personally seen very young by age people who are so wise and deep spiritually and plenty (most!) of old farts who think themselves wise, but in fact grumpy, old boring full of ego dying elements.
    “Would you as a green nouveau seeker desperate to get a bit of action in the spiritual and material world been able to see the truth of it? Or would you have just ignored him as an obvious has-been old fart, pushed him aside and got on with some serious heavy-breathing, wacko living and energetically exploring your shadow ?” – I would personally listen only to Osho who I trust and no one else in between. What good those priests have done who know better and closer to God?
    “What is the wisest stance for the wise old man/fart who sees the folly of seeking?”- MIND HIS OWN BUSINESS, but if a friend ask for help try to help, which will probably be a consolation only anyway.
    One thing I learnt from Osho is that when blind leads the blind-it won’t get you anywhere! If that blind one considers himself a wise blind man, so let it be, but unless you are enlightened you are blind!
    What I note on this site is that Osho gets paraphrased but dressed as a “personal experience of a wise man”. You take away all the books available from that wise man at start and see how wise he will be?! I think one must be honest with himself to acknowledge where his understanding and insights really come from and feel greatful.
    I think the wise man is full of silence, and despite of him that silence helps others around him. Otherwise, it is harmful to listen to every wise man on the path. One will go schizophrenic!

    Frank, I am glad that you are a funny wise man! :)

    • Lokesh says:

      Nice post, Chetna. You say, ‘I would personally listen only to Osho who I trust and no one else in between.’ You’re kidding, right?
      Trust Osho. That really is a good one.

    • babasvetlana says:

      chetna: either you’re a “twenty-something”, who thinks she’s wise, or you’re basically a brain dead old fart who hasn’t noticed a thing about oneself as you aged… Most people, yes most, something like 99% of the population get grumpy.. starts at about 50, give or take a few years. It has nothing to do with being meditative, or an osho sannyasin or a yoga practioner, or a gifted athlete, it’s about pain receptors, arthritis, and diseases that come about due to the aging body.. You can be on the world’s most strictest vegan diet- it doesn’t matter. the body ages, the bones get brittle, muscles get weaker(even with daily exercise), hormones change(if you’re a woman over 50, you know what i mean (interest in sex diminishes quickly over the age of 50),

      I find women over 50 to be the most crankiest and grumpiest of either of the sexes! Lack of estrogen. guys, with their ever declining testosterone levels, still like to have sex but can’t get it up as easily, and they still have some enthusiasm for life. Muscle injuries, joint pain, nerve pain, along with the accumulation of 50 years of trials and tribulations makes a person cranky and grumpy… that along with fewer options for entertainment, except of course the weekly bingo game or trip to the casino, leaves the seniors with not much to do, and the constant reminder from one’s body that it’s worn out..

      In your one sided view of the wise ones of this world, you forget that young people are generally exuberant.. it’s in the hormones and their “fresher” bodies…. it’s all by nature’s design.. so, take some ginko, along with some ADHD meds. it’ll help you to think clearly in the future.

      • babasvetlana says:

        oh i forgot–osho got crankier as he got older

        • Lokesh says:

          Well, Baba, you’ve finally found something you can really relate to.
          Svetlana? Wasn’t that the name of Uncle Joe’s runaway daughter. Was recently reading a book about the life and times of Stalin and came across the name.

    • Young sannyasin says:

      thanks to existence (or to Parmartha?) this kind of idiots are very rare on this site.
      “I think one must be honest with himself to acknowledge where his understanding and insights really come from and feel greatful.”
      Yes sure,then bow down to the Holy Spirit of Osho,the master of the universe….let’s pray togheter brothers!! Osho is with us!!
      May all the Magic of the Universe always save me and those around me from this kind of stupidity….

  8. prem martyn says:

    lokesh the point at which I disagree with you is this….and its a subtle point this, so a bit tricky to grasp….
    going all religious seeker/finder/pally with guru or max drug experiencer doesn’t make anyone a better kinder or more loving person …nor does it make the guru a person who’d make you tea in the mornings or nip down the road to pick up the kids…getting one’s priorities right is everything in life.. and introverted self satisfaction plus money breeds contempt..whether in maroon robes or singing the praises of non institulionalised but yet fossilised self regarding i’m alright jackism in its myriad forms. I’m not impressed by mountaineers either and think that there’s plenty in the world without wanting to conquer its meaning by wilfulness or identification, or the privilege of money..
    .SN may let this one through, as my other versions on the same theme are a tad more shall we say interpersonally vituperative.

    • Lokesh says:

      You know, Martyn, I read your comment twice and in response I’ll tell you this. This is a crazy world we live in. And that is no projection of my mental condition. This morning I stood in the grounds of my house looking at some fruit trees I’d recently transplanted. ‘I’m going to do more of that,’ I thought. If you are having trouble making sense of it all, plant a few trees. You just know in your heart that you are doing the right thing. Now I’m off to mix cement. That is also very good for the soul.

  9. prem martyn says:

    Vartan if everyone is an Osho temple how come at least and i mean at least 50% of his motley crew including and especially the lao-tsu house dwellers and so so many mind specialists, festival makers etc etc are a wandering bunch of … the word begins with c and ends with your imagination.

    which is why i now live a quiet life and have a frying pan, hanging on the wall at head height, ready to knock severe light into anyone who finds where I live and unwisely starts to act all prosaical about their latest manifestation of Oshoness in the world.Or Poopooji or Nice one Hot Potato that man with the eyes of truth itself etc etc etc.
    The fact that Osho said that lovely story about Mr Raji’s Nicerpotato and the cow who came to listen everyday to his lecture, may allow the frying pan to stay on the wall for a few moments.. as i’m very partial to animal welfare stories. In fact if all the actions of the wise ones leads to less eating of them then maybe I have got it all wrong.Therefore I end this missive with my profuse and abundant apologies.

    Ps I recommend a good 12 inch diameter enamel base for good swing action

    • bodhi vartan says:

      prem martyn says:
      Therefore I end this missive with my profuse and abundant apologies.

      You don’t have-to apologise. It’s not all your fault. Hehe.

      prem martyn says:
      Vartan if everyone is an Osho temple how come at least and i mean at least 50% of his motley crew including and especially the lao-tsu house dwellers and so so many mind specialists, festival makers etc etc are a wandering bunch of … the word begins with c and ends with your imagination.

      And what about the other 50%? I don’t see any of your 50% here on this forum. They are only in your head. Perhaps you need a smaller pan.

      prem martyn says:
      which is why i now live a quiet life

      Up to a few months ago I was there with you. I’ve lived like a hermit for about 6-7 years. Situations change. Who knows why. Somehow I didn’t think I was going to be talking about it on the net tho. It’s weird.

      Vartan

      • prem martyn says:

        Good point Vartan about the other 50%
        ..
        I shall now change tack effortlessly and contradict myself profusely…I don’t know what I could have been thinking, why what an complete and utter tosser I am of course you know me by know I say the stupidest things all for effect. So I’m putting on my snow boots now and hurtling off to my local old farts past their sell by-date-Osho lair and give them a piece of my mind ..oh yes I should cocoa..
        Those stick in the muds drawing me down into their degenerate imploded libidos…What a fool I’ve been..I have been misled ,fooled and worse..I have done the same… I may not have any good faith left to power this old fart machine but by God I’m sure gonna make it up to all those good fifty per centers by doing less of what I did and getting my best sorry apologies going full on …it’s heartfulness from now and I’ll be at it like the clappers…Now then where’s my soothing Mitsy and Permky album…..
        here goes..lalala lalala lalalalaoshoooooooo
        swoony swoon swoon…
        Gosh isn’t the Path of Love just so unpathological…I mean I have no idea what its about but its just Greaaaaat ..yeah…
        Just a minute I’m feeling dizzy.. must lie down and not think of the experiencer..just be …. ah yes that and a hot water bottle that’s better.. now then …as its Xmas perhaps a soothing Lullaby…
        Silent(meditative) night
        Holy Osho memory night
        All is calm all is Bright
        Lalalala sannyassins are great….
        lalalalala at least they are my mates..
        sleep in heavenly sleeeeeee eeeeeep

        oh fuck it fuck it fuck it…
        lalalalalalalalla laalaaa the dissolve into the….

        fuck bollox fuck

      • rajni says:

        Vartan says: “… And what about the other 50%? I don’t see any of your 50% here on this forum…”
        We do drop in occasionally – like just now

  10. shantam prem says:

    One business, where nobody can compete Indians is an Abracadabara of Godly business….
    Every other race or country is miles behind…

  11. Prem says:

    http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/vatican-discloses-pope-s-twitter-handle-pontifex-300472?pfrom=home-otherstories

    I wish Osho happened just 25 years later. Had his life ended in 2015 instead of 1990, things would have been dramatically different with all the internet buzz..

  12. Preetam says:

    The Man of truth is compassion – responsible for existence and human being as him self.

    Seeking in general is not folly, depends on what one seeks. Even Animals seek for development, why not man shall use brain for seeking better? There are needs which only can be fulfilled by seeking. Very basic such as Water, Food, Medicine, perhaps, what I find very spiritual. If he is kept away one has to seek ways of getting his needs together.

    The way home can be found through seeking like sperms seek the egg. Even we are already at home, but if trust and doubt has not melted yet into assurance we challenge it. Truth becomes in use perhaps through realizing before leaving the body.

    At least one needs to find what he like or dislike.

  13. bodhi vartan says:

    Frank says:
    So this may raise the question: What is the wisest stance for the wise old man/fart who sees the folly of seeking?

    Art. Creativity. You are an amazing writer but somehow, I feel you have been holding the telescope the wrong-way round. When things are looked-at thisclose they stop making sense. Better still get rid of the telescope altogether. The body is the door. As long as the body is well, the learning and creativity never stops.

    I don’t see age, I see energy. And you have a lot of energy.

    Vartan

    • frank says:

      vartan,
      sounds to me like you have been using shantams` cement mixer on your metaphors…
      cant follow what you`re on about at all.

      • Lokesh says:

        Yes, what exactly is meant by holding the telescope the wrong way? Has this something to do with a unique approach to masterbation? The whole thing is very disturbing. The body is the door? Really quite sinister.
        Vartan draws the conclussion, ‘When things are looked-at this close they stop making sense.’ Yes, I have to agree, especially in this paricular instance.
        I mix my cement in a wheelbarrow.

        • bodhi vartan says:

          frank says:
          vartan, sounds to me like you have been using shantams` cement mixer on your metaphors…
          cant follow what you`re on about at all.

          The question was what should a wise old man do?

          And my answer was Art and Creativity. For all I know you could be the world’s best ping-pong player but all I really know about you is your writing which as I said, I find amazing (I’ve read about 90% of the forum going back three years, so I am not just referring to our recent interactions). The rest was commentary about your writing. I love your extreme analytical critique of spiritual/sannyas matters. It feels like you are looking at your subject through a microscope (telescope), really up-close … and wondered how your language/poetry would sound like, if you didn’t see things so close – by turning the telescope around.

          The body is the door refers to the ‘old’ in the ‘wise old man’ a subject that seems to be recently coming up a lot in the sannyas community … so, there might physical limitations as to how one can express one’s Art and Creativity but bar that, the sky is always the limit. Old dogs, new tricks, comes to mind or am I barking up the wrong tree?

          Vartan

      • roman says:

        Frank,
        Tis nonsense all. This world is full of giddy gabblers who don’t think before they write.
        Enjoy ‘Your Mind is on Vacation’ by Mose Allison, one of the greats. Van Morrison has dedicated an album to him.


        The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

  14. Parmartha says:

    Age is no guarantee of wisdom, I always remember that “foolish, fond old man” King Lear. He needed a “Holy Fool” just to stay in his senses, but even that strategem failed.
    Have you ever been around an old people’s home Frank?/ knowing you, you probably have. In my case due to my profession I have had to loads of times.
    To be honest I never really met anyone “wise” in such a place. But many very sad cases.
    Certain cultures, like Red Indians, apparently accepted that age was the repository of wisdom, and often consulted elders about all sorts of things, sometimes with dire results. That respect has always seemed a bit of a mystery to me.
    A few young people are wise, and a few old people too. That’s the limit of it. And by the way the wise never give advice!

    • babasvetlana says:

      it’s the “Aged” population that controls things in this world… all rulers are over 50, most members of parliament, congress, duma,people’s communist party and military institutions.. perhaps given that most seniors are cranky, how about letting the young ones rule- and serving no more than 5 years, until the age of 40, maybe 45, and no younger than 30(keeps those wild psychos away), as for the “wise never give advice”, they do, they just don’t say, “my advice is…” or “here’s some advice”. They are just clever on how they give advice without the other person taking it as advice.

    • Lokesh says:

      Parmartha, I advise you to stay out of old people’s homes. If you keep it up a day might come when they will not let you out. Sooner rather than later.

  15. shantam prem says:

    Spirituality in the world will increase multifold, if famous Hollywood/Mumbaiwood actors get Enlightenment Bug!
    Think about great superstars going into this and that award
    functions and speak about their Enlightenment; the ego disappaearnce..that they are like hollow bamboos etc. etc.
    For example sake, two of my favourates, Kate Winslet and Richard Gere claim enlightenement and open their ashram/monestry; what a rush it will be to have their darshans/satsangs…

  16. Kavita says:

    there are times when I wonder , the wise man must have been a fool before he turned wise or could only fools be wise ! well perhaps one has to taste the pud to really know , as for me , I havent yet finished tasting , yet to be a taster probably I wont be there to declare Iam a taster :)

  17. frank says:

    “love seeketh not itself to please
    nor for itself has any care
    but for another gives its ease
    and builds a heaven in hell`s despair

    so sung a little clod of clay
    trodden with the cattles feet
    but a pebble of the brook
    warbled out these metres meet:

    love seeketh only self to please
    to bind another to its delight
    joys in anothers loss of ease
    and builds a hell in heaven`s despite”

    from “songs of innocence and experience
    two contrary states of the soul”
    by william blake.

    i never got that poem when i was young.
    but now that i am a grumpy,cynical, miserable,negative, boring,sad old bastard,full of ego and other dark,unenlightened and degenerate bits….
    it rings a bell!

    • roman says:

      Frank,
      Those poems by Blake were food for my soul when young. I should go back to them.

      Contrary states.
      ‘Two birds on a branch
      One looks at the fruit
      The other eats it.’ Upanishads

      Appreciating and destroying.

  18. shantam prem says:

    I have a loving wife, loving children, loving neighbours and friends. I have best of the best spiritual books, no paperbacks but hardbound.
    Health is reasonably good and enough umbrealls for the rainy days..
    And yes..i have good insight and eye sight to see, people are sailing on the ship of fools.
    No i am not enlightend like Buddha or Ramana or Punji ji…but definately i am not a fool too, like all those quotation readers and groupies.
    I am contented with my refined state of mind!

    (Diary of a religious person living in any city of any country)

  19. roman says:

    There is a lot of talk about wisdom these days. I’ve always been impressed with Socrates pointing out he was not wise but a lover of wisdom, particularly the Socrates in Plato’s early dialogues. Socrates always had young lads around him, Athens was a boys club, and he also remained young at heart. He wanted for nothing and didn’t charge like the sophists. He was accused of corrupting the young and turning them away from the gods.

    I’ve recently been reading Chomsky’s essays on the Occupy Movement, how it started and the arrests of so many people in the States. The movement has spread to overseas cities and it has been responsible for bringing economic and social inequities back into the political arena.
    I do have respect for the energy and sense of social justice of the Occupy Movement. Chomsky’s book is ‘dedicated to the 6,705 people who have been arrested supporting Occupy to date, from the first 8o arrested marching in New York on September 24, 2011, to the woman arrested in Sacremento on March 6, 2012, for throwing flower petals.’ Chomsky states, ‘May our numbers swell and increase.’
    I think it would be fair to say that many of the Occupy Movement are young and they have highlighted the entrenched class divisions between the rich and poor. For many Chomsky is a modern day Socrates. He is a main spokes person for the movement. He would laugh if someone called him wise. It doesn’t need wisdom to know that the wealthiest 1% influence the lives of the other 99%. I must admit I find the Occupy Movement of more interest than meditation resorts for comfortable middle classes. Chomsky thinks the movement can lead to bringing about a more equitable society. Poona certainly can’t do this but then again it doesn’t claim to.

    • Lokesh says:

      Roman, please pass the talking stick to that three-headed dwarf on your left.
      My name’s Chumpski.
      Oh, let me introduce you to Roman. Roman, this is Chumpski. Where did you say you were from?
      The burning gats in Poona. You know down by the Bund River.
      Chumski, you are on the wrong thread.
      Ohhh….er…
      Roman, sorry about that.
      Just hang on to the talking stick.

      • bodhi vartan says:

        Chomsky is a CIA agent working to undermine social protest. Are you are going to bring Michael Moore in next … ?

        Vartan

        • roman says:

          Vartan,
          Your comments about Chomsky being a CIA agent are incorrect. As for asking me whether I was going ‘ to bring Michael Moore in next’, I fail to see how you could make a connection between the two.
          Chomsky, a prolific writer, was a very close friend of Howard Zinn, the great American activist and historian. Zinn and Chomsky rode on the Freedom Ride Buses into Mississippi. They went to civil rights and anti-war demonstrations together. Zinn was sacked from Universities and the CIA would have known all about him. Martin Luther King knew full well the contributions of Zinn. It was risky business for both Chomsky and Zinn to go into KKK territory.
          Chomsky is not a CIA agent. The comment reminds me of your superficial sentences about there being ‘only two cultures on this planet operating on a class system, the British and the Indians.’ Apparently eating the same lamb kebabs is the solution? I guess the kebabs are really bringing people together in Thessaloniki and Athens where we have a Nazi party, strangely calling themselves ‘The Golden Dawn’, doing well in a country with such bitter memories of German occupation. I’m quoting from a recent London Review of Books volume 34 number 32. Kebabs certainly eliminate class distinction and lots of lambs as well.
          Finally, interesting how in the old Rajneesh Times Chomsky’s ‘Manufacturing Consent’ was reviewed and highly praised. Could have even been Amrito? So what has all this got to do with the thread? Well old farts get rigid in their thinking perhaps? That there are many disaffected youth as well as diaffected old farts who believe that protesting/occupying and engaging in human and animal rights is important.
          I believe the editors of Sannyas News do not have the conservative mind set of some posters who remind me of the Thatcher and Reagan years.

          • bodhi vartan says:

            roman says:
            Vartan,
            Your comments about Chomsky being a CIA agent are incorrect …

            “A study of Chomsky’s stands on particularly dreadful actions such as JFK’s assassination, 9/11, and with regard to the roles of the CIA and FBI, shows Chomsky to be a de facto defender of the status quo’s most egregious outrages and their covert agency engines. He conducts his de facto defence of the Empire he appears to oppose through applying the very propaganda methods against which he has warned, including use of the derogatory phrase “conspiracy theorist,” which in one context he has characterized as “something people say when they don’t want you to think about what’s really going on.”

            His recommendation that people practice “intellectual self-defence” is well taken. But how many could dream the person warning you is one of the most perilous against whom you’ll need to defend yourself? That he is the fire marshal who wires your house to burn down, the lifeguard who drowns you, the doctor with the disarming bedside manner who administers a fatal injection? If Noam Chomsky did not exist, the diaboligarchy would have to invent him. To the New World Order he is worth 50 armoured division. “….. Barrie Zwicker, Towers of Deception

            • roman says:

              Vartan,
              First comes the idealization then the rejection. We know what ex devotees are like.
              I was a Rajneeshi, I was a Chomsta blah blah blah.
              Years of devotion and then envy, betrayal and revenge. Poor buggers.

          • roman says:

            Roman – “As Gary Snyder put it half a century ago, ‘The mercy of the West has been social revolution. The mercy of the East has been individual insight into the basic self/void. We need both.’
            We need both because when we do not acknowledge the importance of individual transformation, social transformation is repeatedly subverted by powerful elites taking selfish advantage of their position. Democracy may be the best form of government, but it guarantees nothing if people are still motivated by greed, ill-will, and the delusion of a self whose well-being can be pursued indifferent to others’ well-being…” This is from an article in the Huffington Post. Here’s the link – for your interest – and to support your argument about activism.
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-loy/the-new-bodhisattva-path_b_2166676.html

      • roman says:

        Lokesh,
        I guess there is an Occupy Movement in Ibiza not quite like Spain. In Ibiza the only occupying is probably on bar stools or on a nice piece of hot sand whilst one works on producing melanoma’s. Of course I don’t include you in that, not with your Scottish skin.

        I believe that Canadian shaman, Teertha aka Mistlberger, has run off with the talking stick.
        Now there is someone who should reply to the Crowley posts. I saw Teertha’s new book at the Theosophical Bookshop the other day and told the manager to get a few more.
        Of course, then again, Martin could have taken the talking stick and tossed it in the fire in a vain attempt to keep his tootsies warm, in his snow bound cabin somewhere in the alps.

        • Preetam says:

          Why is put so much Authority onto Crowley, because of those tarot pictures and interpretation which is the old Hermetic stuff, not his?

          This Link is out of their viewpoint:
          http://hermetic.com/crowley/

          • roman says:

            Because Crowley is connected to Mercury. Mercury, God of thieves, planet par excellence, has no fixed colour.

            • Preetam says:

              If it wouldn’t be so boring and I am not so lazy, there is a lot to say. But, unto what structure Crowley is given this authority? Or is it just a vision of his Heroin addiction? He is not even a corn of mercury dust, or perhaps Hermes. Gilgamesh same as Crowley already had to leave the Brahman. This structure possibly destroyed Osho and the Commune.

        • Lokesh says:

          Roman, this time of the year, keeping oneself occupied is enough to be going on with Ibizaside.
          I was walking in the forest today and the silence of the place was quite overwhelming.
          Winter on Ibiza is quite the opposite of the image generally projected by the media.
          A wood stove crackles in the background and peace reigns.

    • babasvetlana says:

      chomsky is a fool.. he can’t see that the Occupy mob is just that- a mob… many are clueless college kids, spoiled rotten or just bored They don’t know how to socialize, to communicate face to face , as they say- “Old School” style.. the most of the rest are anarchists, and here in the states the anarchists just hate everything, they want to go back to the stone age, get rid of everything modern and go back to the dark ages. trouble is the cave men were incredibly misogynistic and violent, makes the radical muslims look like altar boys.

      the few remaining Occupiers are a collection of old farts, mostly hippies and wannabees who have nostalgic feelings of their old hippie days- kinda like those of us here. Occupy will never go anywhere, no pun intended.

      • roman says:

        Where did you read this? Were you there? Were you counting the college kids based on their neat haircuts and polo shirts. What articles have you read on it?

        ‘Occupy will never go anywhere’, you say. They said the same thing about the talkies – and indeed, Osho.
        You have been eating too much Kishka – stuffed intestines of slaughtered animals. Their blood has got to your brain.

        • babasvetlana says:

          i’m friends with some of the New York and Oregon Occupy gang… also have in the past, been acquainted with some of the pacific northwest anarchists and greens. roman- get a life and expand your horizons.

        • babasvetlana says:

          if you don’t believe me- just google the topic and you’ll read plenty from those who were there and you’ll discover plenty, along with the realization that you’re stuck in a closet with your judgements and assumptions.

          • roman says:

            Baba,
            You seem to be some kind of control freak who believes they know everything. I’m not the only way who contests your expertise on a lot of things. Some of your views are quite crass.

            ‘Americans have a special horror of giving up control, of letting things happen in their own way without interference. They would like to jump down into their stomachs and digest the food and shovel the shit out.’
            William Burroughs

            He who is an expert on everything is an idiot in the strictest sense.

  20. Kaalaagnishayogijanvallalilaavishasiddharaaj says:

    Hmmmm… isn’t a wise man beyond “shoulds” and all that? Seems like an actual “wise man” does as he pleases and lets the chips fall where they may, since there is nothing to be done about it anyways. But what do I know? I am just another idiot, like all the rest.

    “Diogenes stood outside a brothel, shouting, “A beautiful whore is like poisoned honey! A beautiful whore is like poisoned honey! A beautiful whore . . . “. Men entering the house threw him a coin or two to shut him up. Eventually Diogenes had collected enough money and he too went into the brothel.”