Lokesh views his experiences with Osho and Punjaji in retrospect and reflects on a fundamental lesson from his experiences with them.


“We need a leader, we need a master
We can’t do it all on our own
We need a guru, we need a boo-hoo
We’re afraid of being alone.”

Ray Manzarek (The Doors)

During the time I spent compiling content for the book, ‘The Very Best and Worst of Sannyas News’, I read hundreds of Osho quotes and passages from his discourses. It’s the most I have read his words in forty years. I also looked at hundreds of Osho photographs, searching for pictures suitable for creating advertising flyers for the book. Osho had entered my life again. I realize now that this had an interesting side-effect upon me. For the first time in many years I started examining deeply how I view Osho in retrospect.

When I meet people who are twenty-four years old they look young to me. I was twenty-four-years old when I first met Osho in March 1975. I was young. The experience was so powerful I still remember it clearly today. It left an indelible imprint on my memory. Like most people meeting Osho personally for the first time, I was blown away by him, to say the least. I went on to meet him many times in darshan and it was always intense, but somehow, over the years, I became accustomed to entering the unique field of energy created by his presence. I became more grounded, more centered, which isn’t to say that sitting directly in front of him no longer blew my mind, it did, but in a way that I was able to assimilate. To this day I have never met another human being who affected me like Osho did, even taking into consideration that I was a young man at the time.

Due to the onset of a dreadful disease in 1981, I found myself having to fight for my life. I almost died. It took me two years to regain full health. Those two years involved a personal struggle that left little room in my life for anything else, including Osho. I also ended up broke, and had to try and make money by any means possible, or risk ending up on the street. The eighties was the most difficult decade in my seventy years of living.  I survived. Then Osho died. His death surprised me, but did not come as a great shock to me.

In 1990, my wife travelled to Lucknow in India and met HWL Poonja for the first time. She stayed there for two months. When she returned home, she was positively glowing. When she began to try and convince me to go and meet Poonjaji, I groaned inwardly and thought, “Oh, no, not another bloody guru in filthy India!” Her powers of persuasion eventually won me over and I flew to New Delhi and then travelled by train to Lucknow.

In terms of presentation, Poonjaji was nothing like Osho. The master’s satsangs contained little in the way of theatrics or opulence. They were humble, and held in a big room in a nondescript bungalow on the edge of the city. From an uninformed distance, Papaji looked like an old man, who did not do anything in a hurry. He took his time reading disciples’  letters, talking the Advaita talk and engaged in verbal exchanges with members of the satsang community. I eventually reached the master’s feet…

Wham! I knew the vibe. It was exactly the same vibe I felt during my meetings with Osho, and it was thanks to my close encounters with Osho that I was able to handle meeting Papaji in a mature way. I wasn’t a new kid on the block anymore.

There were certain differences between Osho’s and Poonjaji’s approaches to life that are worth noting. Unlike Osho, Papaji did not want to gather a permanent crowd around him. He wanted to share what he had to impart and then for you to leave. I found this quality of Poonjaji’s to be liberating. In Poona I had always felt like I would be missing out if I left. Poonjaji was not interested in the trappings of wealth. He lived off a meagre pension gained from serving in the military.

And one finer point: In contrast to Osho, Poonjaji made it very clear that what you were experiencing in his presence had to do with you and you alone, and had nothing to do with him. Osho said as much also, but not to the extent of telling you directly to your face in a very clear and explicit manner. In my eyes, Osho enjoyed adulation from his followers. Poonjaji did not. That is a personal observation that some might disagree with. I don’t have a good or bad judgement about it. It just appeared that way to me. I found it refreshing.

All of the events described took place decades ago. During that time, I have met several satsang givers. I found none of them to be authentic. They were either delusional or fake. If you have been driven in a top-of-the-range car, you recognize a banger immediately. There are a lot of bangers around these days.

To this day I have no idea if Osho or Poonjaji were enlightened. I don’t think it really matters. Those two men possessed the power to transform people’s lives in a positive way and, when it all boils down, that is what counts. We live in an age where myth has replaced fact. Spiritual masters can be, and often are the perfect screen to project all manner of fantasies upon. I’ve done my share of that, but no longer have a need for it. Many amazing things happened around Osho. There is no denying that. Why these amazing things happened could have multiple reasons, many of them interrelated. It is easy to project images of godliness on such a remarkable man, and forget he was simply a remarkable man. Osho was not a saviour and he certainly harboured no desire to be someone’s spiritual crutch.

Wise men, spiritual teachers and gurus, have existed down through the ages. They exist in a sometimes dark world and serve to point the way to the light, the light of understanding, the light of awareness, the light of freedom. To become attached and identified with the one pointing the way, instead of following the direction indicated is, in my eyes, pure folly. We must do the intelligent thing and head off on our own.

When searching for relevant quotes for this article I came across this one by Baba Ram Dass: “I’m not interested in being a ‘lover.’ I’m interested in only being love.” A simple statement that says a lot.

I always liked Ram Dass, a spiritual pioneer in his time. Taking what he said into consideration, I can say that I am not an Osho lover. Being an ‘Osho lover’ is a proposition that reeks of sentimentality. And it must be remembered that Osho was not a sentimentalist. Osho is, for me, a spiritual friend, one of many I have been fortunate enough to meet on this mysterious journey we know collectively as ‘Life’. One thing Osho told me forty-five years ago is encapsulated in the following: 

“A single moment of knowing the realization that you are alone – alone to tread the path, alone to create the path, alone to be committed to living, alone to be involved in the moment – can penetrate you and society vanishes. You are alone.”

It still rings true today.


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106 Responses to Alone

  1. In Hindi, there is a common saying, roughly translated, that means:
    After eating hundred rats, cat goes for Pilgrimage.

    Aloneness, loneliness and that talks and periphera are part of life, especially modern life where stable relations built on years turn into divorce after Christmas holidays.

    Once I made this story for facebook posts:

    Swamiji pointed, “Shantam, from your posts I feel a pain of loneliness. How long you have been sannyasin? It should be aloneness now.

    Shantam asked, “Have you not felt lonely?”
    Swamiji said, “I don’t remember when was the last time. You can ask even my wife. We are together for last 32 years. She has never seen me lonely.”

    • swamishanti says:

      Friends and comrades,
      I never met Papaji, but have heard good reports. As you say, Lokesh, “Those two men possessed the power to transform people’s lives in a positive way and, when it all boils down, that is what counts.”

      “Whatever boils an egg, works.” (Swamishanti, 2021).

      Both masters clearly had a very different style and approach.
      Whereas Papaji appears to have been focused on triggering satori in his visitors , bringing his eggs to boiling point . He was not interested in making an omelette.

      Osho was all for the Commune, the Buddhafield, the Sangha. He wanted “10,000 Buddhas”.
      Osho’s vision was of a world of meditators living and working together in communes. For Osho the commune was the goose that lays the golden eggs.

      Osho always seemed to play down satori, and I’ve read of quite a few instances where he mentioned that people were prematurely declaring enlightenment. I guess he wanted his Sannyasins to grow into maturity. As he said, “enlightenment is an endless beginning.”

      Pappaji, on the other hand, was apparently not happy with several Americans who had spent time with him, felt they had become self -realised , left and begun teaching in their own right. However, Andrew Cohen didn’t understand this and said that Pappaji had actually told him that he was enlightened, and , others such as Gangaji and Eli- Jason Bear were apparently told by Pappaji to go and ‘spread the word’.

      But whereas both men had a powerful presence, Osho’s way of working was also fundamentally different to that of Pappaji.

      Pappaji used self-enquiry and advaita talk. Advaita talk is quite simple, as Osho once said, “There is a beedie-wallah in every village.” Osho also warned about self-enquiry , it can be potentially powerfull in triggering satori , but the dangers of a premature sense of enlightenment, if applied and used without the ongoing guidance of an enlightened master.

      I would say, Osho’s principal way of working could principally be described as ‘bhakti’,for want of a better word.

      That ‘Bhakti’ doesn’t mean you necessarily agree with everything he says and doesn’t mean that you need to use rituals.
      The inner connection with Osho is absolutely nothing to do with sentimentalism or living in the past , it is absolutely in the here and now.

      Of course, many disciples and readers will also be attracted to the Zen side of his approach.

      He knew that for disciples, simply focusing on him, ‘guru-yoga’, would bring fruit.

      Osho is still widely misunderstood by many. Yes, Osho encouraged surrender and devotion from his sannyasins, but he knew what he was doing. It was nothing to do with self-aggrandisement.

      Yes, like Pappaji, Osho had a powerful presence but was much more than just a intelligent man with a powerful energy field around him.

      I had felt Osho’s unmistakable Presence in his ashram, but also around several disciples, and had also begun to feel it from time to time since he left the body.

      More recently, this became much more intense. Since that inner connection with Osho developed, it is supporting me, wherever I happen to be makes no difference.

      The ordinary man – or extraordinary man, depending on which way you look at it – His Presence was/is the real Osho , not the small man and it is the Consciousness of God, Existence, Source….Shiva consciousness, Christ consciousness, Krishna consciousness….Osho consciousness.
      It is everywhere and in everything.

      The current policy of the Resort management in removing Osho’s pictures from the covers of his books is in my opinion rather foolish. Not just because the new book designs look bland and boring. Osho was involved in the design of his books and he had many photos taken for the front covers. This wasn’t any form of narcissism, this had an esoteric purpose: the photo carries his energy and many a connection to that energy can be developed from the photo. Many sannyasins had an instant recognition after seeing His photo on their first Osho book.

      Osho’s popularity continues to grow in the Indian subcontinent, Russia, China , Japan, Europe and other countries. Thankfully this is happening without any missionary activity or ugly attempts at converting others to a belief system, that has been the way of religions.

      The recent ‘loveosho’ podcasts do not fall into the category of preaching, but are simply historical testaments of individuals whose lives have been touched or transformed by Osho . Many would find the stories of people who really got something out of being with Osho refreshing when there is so much negativity and also misinformation or misunderstanding around regarding Osho.

      Out of the hundreds of thousands , or perhaps millions of Osho fans around the world today , they are not only into his earlier talks from the sixties and seventies, but are very enthusiastic about the later talks, many of these are the videos which were recorded with higher qaulity technology from the eighties which are available not just in Osho centres but on YouTube and elsewhere. I have yet to see some of the later talks such as ‘Communism and Zen Fire Zen Wind’ appear on YouTube. Many of the talks appear to be from the Ranch period.

      Osho is the guru of abundance. Comrades, the spiritual Revolution will be a revolution of living in abundance and celebration, and partying, not just meditation. No doubt Oshos ‘Zorba the Buddha’ will be a major contribution. Christians will still be needed to supply blankets and supply help for the poor who live outside the communes. Hari Krishnas will still be needed to hand out tasteless plates of rice and dahl at festivals.

      Enough for today…enough for at least a week in fact.

      • swamishanti says:

        * included: Swamishanti’s special Pappaji poster.

        • Klaus says:

          Like your long post, Swamishanti. It helps to put some things in perspective in understandable language. Well done.

          Imo, this post could have triggered more discussion. Or statements of people’s own experience or standpoint(s).

          • swamishanti says:

            Thanks, Klaus. As far more people giving statements of their own experiences here is concerned, I find this is becoming increasingly unlikely. My recent perception has been that sannyasnews is generally perceived as quite a hostile site by many sannyasins.

            I can remember a couple of occasions over the years where other contributors, such as Chetana from Loveosho wrote about their experiences with Osho which included non-physical connections and they were told that it was ‘probably their imagination’ from Lokesh or another contributor who doesn’t believe in such things as they are outside of their own field of experience with Osho.

            Now this is all very well but it is going to be a bit of a conversation – killer, especially as most people won’t be overly keen to discuss their inner lives.

            Personally I find it very difficult to imagine someone being able to create a fantasy that they were connected to Osho’s presence – especially if they have felt his energy in his physical presence or his commune as well and are able to recognise it.

            Sannyasins from Ozen Rajneesh’s Mexican Commune were given a particularly hard time when they came on here in the past. The arguments from both sides and the interaction from so many writers were stimulating for me at least and a lot of fun.

            But they won’t write on here anymore.
            Indian sannyasins who used to frequent the site have all left years ago.

            Frank’s Anand Yogi can be very funny and some of his satire is sometimes good but if a newcomer to the site writes anything particularly positive about Osho and is immediately jumped on by Anand Yogi’s cynical humour this isn’t going to make many sannyasins feel particularly welcome.

            Let’s face it, the site has been almost dead for some time. Everyone’s left.
            Years ago there were many sannyasins writing on SN.
            Now there is a tiny handful of people, I have recently wondered if Shantam Prem and Satchit are the same person, and the main writers of the threads since Parmartha left his body are two pretty cynical types, doubting Thomases, (as AY would call them ‘unconscious baboons’?’), Lokesh and Frank, who seem to have developed the idea that they themselves know a bit better than other sannyasins who are a little gullible for having trust in Osho.

            You are only fooling yourself.

            Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy both Frank and Lokesh’s writing and have immensely enjoyed interacting with both of them for years, in a a small setting such as this, and I have had a lot of good laughs which sometimes went on and on for hours just from various writing and reading on the site, and we have had some good chats on here over the years, but most sannyasins cannot be bothered with the site anymore and now give it a wide berth.

            That is just my recent perception. That may change with time.

            For personal reasons I don’t time right now to get into discussion about this, and I haven’t managed to order Lokesh’s book ‘the best and worst of sannyasnews’ so I don’t yet know what he has included in it.

            • swamishanti says:

              On a separate note…

              Some may not realise that there was also a marriage between Osho and Pappaji…a literal marriage: A longtime sannyasin, who passed away this year, Shambu, married one of Pappaji’s daughters and I believe they had some kids. I saw that on Oshonews. I have also had several offers of marriage with Indian women yet I avoided those.

              • Klaus says:

                Yeah, I can relate to what you wrote about the difficulties newcomers might face. I was one, too.
                Then one delevops some resilience…

                What can happen in the inner world can be quite unbelievable.

                Stan Grof and his wife Christina have done some incredible research (LSD experiences, breathwork, transpersonal discovery..):

                I would not say “no, impossible”, because it did not happen to me. It certainly can happen.

                Take care.

                • frank says:

                  Anything is possible.
                  Also, it is possible for anyone to say anything they want.

                  Non-provable and non-falsifiable claims abound in `spiritual` circles and imv quite rightly should be

                  Maybe it is those who hope to gain something from publicising their `inner world` claims unchallenged that will be offended by this kind of questioning?

                • swamishanti says:

                  I don’t think anyone would be offended by questioning their experiences.
                  People are usually only really offended when something directed at them is true. It’s as if someone is asking you if you could be imagining whether the sun has risen in the daytime.

                  I have had no problem with writing here for years.

                  But I just don’t think the site is that welcoming for sannyasins and that’s why they gradually all left.

                • Lokesh says:

                  I think Shanti is probably quite correct in his assumption that some people might be put off from writing on this site for the reasons he asserts. What to do? What makes SN unique is the fact that anyone can write almost anything on here. I think that is good.

                  If someone writes something about their being in contact with Osho, I will question that. Why? For many reasons. For a start, if what Osho claimed about himself is true, there exists no way to get in contact with him because he no longer exists on any plane of existence. If he does exist then his claims about being enlightened are false. One thing I definitely picked up on, while going through dozens of articles searching for material for the book, was that towards the end of his life Osho had no time for mystic mud, special connections, continuing to work from some other plane of existence when dead etc., because his whole focus was on Zen, which completely does away with such fanciful notions.

                  Over the years I have met sannyasins who think, feel or proclaim they have a special connection to Osho. In general they are either quite lost, or they have an investment in saying they are connected to Osho, in many cases commercial. As I have mentioned before on SN, what I found liberating about meeting Poonjaji was that I realized he was a representative of an energy, love, consciousness etc. that I loved. Just the same as what I felt with Osho. A problem arises when people start identifying with the representative of this benign force, awareness, meditative state etc., instead of identifying with the force. Some people like to have a physical manifestation, name, guru, dead or alive, to worship. I do not. I prefer to look at the moon directly, rather than becoming identified with the finger pointing at it.

                  Everyone is at different stages in life. If I see someone who appears to be delusional on this level I have the right to point it out, although I do not always exercise that right. On a blog site like SN, where topics and comments are up for debate, I occasionally point out things that some might not be comfortable with. They, in turn, have the right to declare this. If that person feels in any way threatened, upset, intimidated etc. by my pointing this out, then it is their problem not mine.

                  If someone is really hooked up with the force they will just laugh about what I say. This is what I learned being around Osho. People only get upset when their ego is involved. Otherwise they will just have a good laugh about it. End of story. It is that simple.

                • Klaus says:

                  Between 0 and 100 there is 99.
                  99 is not a 100.

                  Imo, any experience in between is relevant, necessary, unavoidable, indescribable and possibly unpaintable.
                  And certainly impermanent.

                  Lokesh states:
                  “Everyone is at a different stage.”

                  Experiences and so forth become delusional when blown up into stories without seeing their impermanence. Getting stuck instead of moving on.

                  To me still, they are signposts of what is happening to a person and where person is at.

                  When we are talking Osho we are talking from the end. The end of stories. Anybody who is in a position of “talking about the end”: Congrats. For clarity, strength, work done, sublime.
                  “Zen mind. Beginners mind.”

                  Absolutism to me is just a reminder. I am interested in the describing by people of what is going on internally: it is a happening, a sharing.
                  Certainly everbody has their own intuition about it.
                  If one believes a story or not.

                  Writing non-truths about one’s inner life? Writing under two names?
                  Who is cheating whom?
                  What is the vested interest?

                  I know more about meditation than about love. When I started here in the 90s I felt like a 15 year-old boy (at age 30-40).
                  Nowadays (at age 61), I feel like an 80+ year-old, who might drift into never-neverland in the coming years.

                  In my memory, Osho said: “Sannyasins will be the specialists of love in this world.”
                  That’s what I felt I wanted to learn. That is what impressed me: both sides of the coin – Bhagwan Osho.

                  The older generation might have beaten, suppressed and belittled their children “out of love”.

                  What are we doing out of love?

                  Sometimes hitting hard with words is required – i.e. in regard to stuckness and/or negativity – to be able to move on. To clarify, to kill illusions.

                  For the genuine sharing of individual, personal, universal, transpersonal happenings, imo sympathetic joy is not only helpful, but needed.

                  Shania Twain:
                  “If you’re not in it for love – I am outta here”

                  That is my goodwilled interpretation of a motive of people leaving.

                  Cheers. Thanks for the quality work y’all are and have been doing.

                  I found the exchanges always helpful; f.i. in learning to “stand my ground” – head up in the clouds – feet back on the ground.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Lokesh, you wrote:

                  “For a start, if what Osho claimed about himself is true, there exists no way to get in contact with him because he no longer exists on any plane of existence. If he does exist then his claims about being enlightened are false.”

                  Yet he did say several times that he knew that the energetic connection between himself and his lovers would not dissapear once he had left the body.

                  That is because it is nothing to do with his body/mind.

                  In the seventh body, individuality is said to completely cease to exist.

                  You wrote that you felt it was the same vibe when you sat before Pappaji as with Osho. I believe that.

                  All masters Presence and consciousness will be one with the Whole, yet they also have individual fragrances. I know that from experience from several different enlightened masters, including sannyasins whose individual frangrance was merged with Osho’s Presence as well as encountering the consciousness of non- sannyasin masters.

                  If you felt Pappaji’s presence after he left the body, you would recognise that as Pappaji. It will be different to Osho’s unmistakable fragrance which you would also instantly recognise and you may also encounter if you visited the Resort in Pune, or one of the other Osho places.

                  You also put:

                  “One thing I definitely picked up on, while going through dozens of articles searching for material for the book, was that towards the end of his life Osho had no time for mystic mud, special connections, continuing to work from some other plane of existence when dead etc, because his whole focus was on Zen, which completely does away with such fanciful notions.”

                  Actually, this really isn’t the case at all.

                  Many times towards the end of his life, in Pune Two and in some of the Zen talks, he mentions that He would still be available in the same way just as he was when he left the body. And in one talk from 1988/1989, I remember that he said something in a discourse encouraging his listeners to learn to get in touch with his non-physical presence, his ‘light-body’.

                  “Over the years I have met sannyasins who think, feel, or proclaim they have a special connection to Osho. In general they are either quite lost, or they have an investment in saying they are connected to Osho, in many cases commercial.“

                  That really is just your perception. There are sannyasins who certainly have a connection with Osho that is no way related to anything ‘commercial’.

                  Here we are talking about the big Osho, the Presence and consciousness, not the small man Osho who came out and gave the fantastic talks twice a day.

                  You wrote:

                  “Some people like to have a physical manifestation, name, guru, dead or alive, to worship. I do not. I prefer to look at the moon directly, rather than becoming identified with the finger pointing at it. Everyone is at different stages in life. If I see someone who appears to be delusional on this level I have the right to point it out, although I do not always exercise that right.”

                  Well, having an inner connection to Osho is certainly not anything to do with worshipping a dead guru – unless you want it to be that way.

                  I don’t have any pictures of Osho in my house any more.

                  Indians know through thousands of years of experience that the consciousness of a particular, authentic enlightened guru can be tappped into by focusing on that guru, deity etc. with flowers, incense and mantra or bhajans.

                  There is nothing delusional about it, that is simply your misunderstanding. Most people would not talk about it.

                  What we are essentially talking about is a consciousness that can be tapped into and just wants to help people grow in consciousness in the same way as it did when he was in the body.

                  Osho himself was quite clear that his Presence would still be around after he left the body, as he mentioned many times over the course of thirty years.

                  He also said that in reality he was that Presence. That his appearance as a person was an illusion.

                  You have the absolute right and freedom to doubt what he said about that, but I do wonder then what your fascination with Osho really is if you doubt him so much.

                  And you also seem to be by far the most attached to this site, sannyasnews, much more than anyone else who has written here.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Shanti, the truth is that Osho taught me to doubt, and that to doubt requires guts. I will go a step further and say that doubt is the way to truth. To doubt is not negative or positive, it just means to question.

                  As for being attached to SN, I doubt it. I enjoy the site, see it as worthwhile and therefore contribute. Attachment causes pain. If SN went down the tubes tomorrow it really would not affect me. There are so many channels for creativity, SN is one of my favourites, but attached to it, Shanti you are mistaken in believing what your mind is saying on this matter because that is not how it is for me, I can assure you.

                • frank says:

                  Swami Shanti says:
                  “Indians know through thousands of years of experience that the consciousness of a particular, authentic, enlightened guru can be tappped into by focusing on that guru, deity etc. with flowers, incense and mantra, bananas or bhajans.”

                  Anand Yogi says:
                  “Perfectly correct, Swami Shanti!
                  The wise men of mighty Bhorat have also known many other things for thousands of years that ignorant cynical western baboons cannot understand! For example, that shit-scraping caste must scrape shit off bottoms of higher caste or face death has been common knowledge in mighty Bhorat since divine truth was hit upon many yugas ago! Also, the spiritual insight that women are inferior to men is well known on browned and hallowed turf!

                  And whilst the depraved western baboons are drinking orange juice, Perrier, coffee and tea, great sages and yogis have wisely been drinking urine for the breakfast! And for yugas we have known that bathing in holy cowdung is spiritual and medicinal! Some much wisdom that has led to knowing that destroying offensive phallic organ by beating it with stick is time-honoured path to enlightenment!

                  Also, wise men of mighty Bhorat, through siddhis honed through deep meditations unknown to western baboons were also able to divine that Satchit and Shantam are same person!

                  There is nothing delusional here ! These western cynical rational baboons will even deny vedic science of starsigns!
                  The absurd baboons will probably try to deny that Uranus exists! But of course you know it exists because you can feel it!
                  As above, so below! As the mighty Vedas say.

                  Only yesterday at Bungabungalore ashram I walked into Swami Bhorat`s room where he was cavorting Khajuraho-style naked on the bed with a group of naked female disciples with empty packets of blue soma lying around! He was on top of one of the apsaras, pumping away furiously.

                  I asked:”What are you doing O guru?”
                  He shouted back “I am just getting into my seventh body”

                  Certainly, like Swami Shanti, he is a very advanced soul!


                • Klaus says:

                  “Non-provable and non-falsifiable claims abound in `spiritual` circles and imv quite rightly should be questioned/challenged.”

                  I was trying to think about what this statement could mean in practical terms.

                  And came up with this:

                  In our (modern, advanced, educated) times there should be no separation between the participants of a meditation (or other) group. However, there will be an organizing, a leading or a responsible person of the privately initiated group.
                  In a rehabilitation or hospital setting there will certainly always be a hierarchy i.e. organizational setting.

                  In the privately organized setting not one person should be elevated or elevate themselves to sit up front on a (lush) pedestal fronting the “students”.

                  Rather, there would be a circle of people agreeing on a certain practice for a limited period of time: like 30 minutes of sitting meditation plus 30 minutes of walking meditation, gong and bye bye.
                  Possibly – if agreed in advance by the participants – there could be a sharing afterwards and then concluding and bye bye.
                  All instructions concerning method and timing to this end can be prepared beforehand on a paper handout; so there would not even be a need to give oral instructions before the sessions.

                  In this way I understand the challenges of Frank and Lokesh, if someone were claiming to be the exclusive “Satsang Meditation Group leader” and indeed setting her/himself up in front on a (lush) pedestal. And then being the only one speaking at the start. Or during the full set.

                  Plus in the following, start a new movement and become a new Andrew Cohen or a new Moo-ji or John de Ruiter including all the sidesteps….

                  Found a very interesting article on ‘Teacher Psychology’ on Barry Goddard’s astrologer’s blog here:

                  The article addresses the unresolved issues of “the teachers” and the need to look at it.

                  That is the point Frank and Lokesh seem to aim at. And that is a good one, indeed.

                  The other point imo is that people on the path need – at least for some time – or want to have an open exchange of what is happening inside of them.

                  If we cannot do this among like-minded people? Well, then better have a supervisor within a training course. Or near friends. Or a therapist. Then there is no need to express oneself “on a public forum on the internet”.

                  But then imo it is also a waste, because there can be benefits for those who listen. Not true?

              • frank says:

                Klaus, in the context of the conversation, I was referring to the occult stuff Shanti was pumping out.

                If folks have a liking for occult sci-fi, good luck to them.

                It`s a genre I kind of lost interest in a while back, other than for comedy purposes. Even the idea that those who are into it are somehow in touch with a superior reality is comic to start with!

                • Klaus says:

                  Oi, thanks, Frank for the feedback and clarifying.

                  There’s 1 unwritten rule:
                  “Thou shalt not speculate….”

                • frank says:

                  For example, the chakra story.
                  In the development of the chakra theory/practice it is known from old manuscripts that there was a wide range of chakra systems developed in India. The number of chakras varied widely from system to system. Eg 5, 7, 8, 9, 12, 21, 112 etc.
                  The number of chakras got formalised into 7 by the Theosophical Society in the late 19th century.

                  Most who become interested in chakras assume that the chakra system is something like a fixed map of the inner self in the same way that medically we have a universal map of the internal organs that applies to all humans: heart, lungs, liver, kidneys etc.

                  I see that as misguided.

                  I have also found that this/my viewpoint is quite irritating to those who take a doctrinaire view of chakra theory. Either that, or an assumption is thereon made about the limits of my inner experience.

                • frank says:

                  I think it`s been posted before, but I do find R. Crumb`s chakra system remarkably useful….

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ceretainly is, Frank. I’m reminded of how Barry Long used to advise against getting hung up on chakras, declaring how largely irrelevant to contemporary people that system is. I found his down-to-earth, practical Aussie approach refreshing – and I was one who’d eagerly devoured Sri Aurobindo’s huge esoteric tome, ‘On Yoga’, bought at a second-hand bookshop in Warwick when I was 21, imagining I had been granted access to and resonated with the treasures it revealed. Just imagination, disconnected from my actual experience of living.

                • Klaus says:

                  Yeah, Robert Crumb, quite on the spot…

                  Any concept without underlying or overlying experience could be…not fitting, deviating, misleading, a dead-end to whatsoever or whatever.

                • frank says:

                  Aurobindo was like a kind of Oxbridge version of Swami Bhorat.
                  BL did a good job getting you to go cold turkey on that stuff.

                  I visited Auroville and the Auro Ashram in the early 80s.
                  They seemed like nice people but mad as a sack of kundalini-rising ferrets.

                  As I remember, the Aurovillians (or Aurovillains) were in conflict at the time with the Ashramites about the land, which had been hijacked by westerners who were in collaboration with local officials.

                  One day when I was there, fisticuffs broke out at the ashram gate. The local constabulary, wearing their colonial gendarme hats, had to be called and the Aurovillains were dispersed. That was a picture.

            • satchit says:

              “Years ago there were many sannyasins writing on SN.
              Now there is a tiny handful of people, I have recently worked out that Shantam Prem and Satchit are the same person, and the main writers of the threads since Parmartha left his body are two pretty cynical types, (as AY would call them ‘unconscious baboons’?’).”

              You are a bit funny, Shanti, me and Shantam the same person – lol.

              I could also say, you and Klaus, the same person, but I will not say this.
              Maybe you are similar because you both are bhakti types.

              A main writer I would not call myself either. Anyway, I know what you are talking about. If you ask me I would not call this a place for sharing inner experiences. I have done this years ago and immediately the wise guys here talked of cliches.

              Yes, years ago things were different, even with the sannyasins.
              Is it still possible to become a sannyasin or is it a story of the past?
              Where shall come the new blood from?

              Anyway, it’s nice to have a bit of fun here, as long as it lasts.

              Btw, Loco, good and interesting book.

              • swamishanti says:

                I have ways of being able to tell that you are also SP.
                Remember, I am the SS.

                Actually, I first suspected you were the same person when you first began writing as Satchit several years ago.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Shanti, you might be the SS but, like your idea about me being attached to SN, you are mistaken in believing Satchit and Shantam are one and the same. For a start, Satchit’s command of English is more developed than Shantam’s. Shantam would not be capable of faking that.

                  Tell you what, being a gambling man, I bet you 100e at 5 to 1 that Satchit and Shantam are not the same person. Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? I doubt it.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I may be wrong about Satchit and SP being the same person. But their was a indication that they may have been some time ago.

                  Anyhow, it doesn’t matter.

                  As far as you are concerned though, you are for sure the most attached to SN that is a different matter.

                • Lokesh says:

                  “I have ways of being able to tell that you are also SP.”
                  “I may be wrong about Satchit.”

                  Oh dear.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Really, Shanti, who gives a fuck?

                  We can’t always be right. No matter how hard we might try. It always brings a sense of release when we admit we might have got something wrong, instead of hanging onto the idea that you are right, which, if you are honest about it, is a bum trip.

                  As Anand Yogi was once heard to say, “The truth will set you free.” Just because it is a cliche doesn’t mean that it isn’t most definitely true. Take it easy, because easy is the real right.

                • satchit says:

                  So you checked out my address because you are from SS (Security Service)?

                  Because you wanted to know if Shantam and me is the same person.

                  Sounds crazy.

                  You know what the meaning of SS is in Germany?

                • swamishanti says:

                  Well we have to keep an eye on Shantam as he is from IS (Indian Sannyas).

                • frank says:

                  Satchit Hellman says:

                • satchit says:

                  Accidentally Swami Yogi did send me a vid from Hare Krishna Ashram:


                • frank says:

                  Anand Yogi says:

                  “Völlig richtig!”

              • Klaus says:


                I am sitting in the South of Germany and – I guess – Swamishanti is sitting somewhere in the UK.

                Interestingly we share an interest in an area around Bengal in India; we found that out in some pingpong of comments in other threads.

                Obviously people are (very) different even if they share an interest in Osho Sannyas and Advaita and else.

                Insights obviously happen to everyone in a different way and in different stages of their lives.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Good wee picture.

                • Klaus says:

                  Yeah, this little picture expresses why in general I do not like to or do not at all participate in (hot) headed discussions:

                  we may be talking about the same thing – but the words dont fit (everyone).

                  Walking 1 mile in the shoes of the other is difficult, when one’s own shoes are sticky…

                  Walking the walk – in words of my choice:

                  observing – breathing
                  greed – hate – irgnorance
                  -1- Dukkha

                  I make up some new words:

                  Imo, the process is:
                  (Full) seeing of the former (fully) develops the latter.
                  (Go back to 1)

                  Walking the walk.
                  Nothing to prove:
                  when it is there, it shows.
                  In / On the effing internet as well.

                  “State your mind – all the mind – you’re gonna feel fine”
                  Nile Rogers

                  “The View” – see attached image

              • swamishanti says:

                I have no idea if Lokesh’s compilation is any good yet as I haven’t read it.

                At first, I thought the idea of creating a book was crap, but then I looked back at some the old threads, I re-read some of my old comments & I thought they were pretty good but have no idea if they were included by Lokesh in his book.

                So I may bring out my own e- book, featuring some of my favourite threads, complete with all cartoons, and jpg images.

                Here’s one of my old comments from 2016 with a possible cover for one of the chapters:

                swamishanti says: 
4 September, 2016 at 5:53 pm
                “Just look silently an’ deeply an’ you’ll find yaaahr master everywhere. The ‘ole existence’ll become suffused wiv yaaahr master. And ov caaahrse, da momen’ a master dies, ‘e makes da whole existence sacred fer ‘is disciples. In da stones they’ll touch ‘im, in da flaaahrs they’ll see ‘is colors, in da rainbows they’ll see ‘is beauty.

A disciple becomes so deeply immersed in da consciousness ov da master, what when da master’s consciousness spreads all over existence, da disciple at least can see it. That’s why in Zen when a master dies da disciples dance; they make a ceremony ov it, because their master is freed from all boundaries ov body an’ mind. 
This freedom ov their master is an indicashun ov their own freedom. This freedom ‘as ter be respected, recognized, froo their ceremony, froo their songs an’ dances.”

‘Osho: ‘Zen: The Diamond Thunderbolt’ (East-End text translation)

                • Lokesh says:

                  Coincidentally enough, I just went into the living room and found Prita, my partner, reading ‘The Book’. She is about a third of the way through.

                  “How’s the book going?” I asked. Prita is hyper-critical about everything I do on a creative level.
                  She replied, “Not bad. I just read a very interesting comment.”
                  “Who by?” I asked.
                  “Shanti,” she replied. “Who is he?”
                  “Aww…just one of the regulars on Sannyas News,” I answered.
                  She commented, “Seems like a nice guy.”
                  “Yeah,” I said, he probably is.’

                  So, Shanti, you have at least one fan out there.

                • Klaus says:

                  Ah, the hyper-critical German mind.

                  I know this one by my own personal experience.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Klaus, I actually enjoy the hyper-critical German mind because it inspires me. On the rare occasions I get a positive I know I must have got something right.

                • Klaus says:

                  The G. mind can work wonders! It is proven!

      • Lokesh says:

        Quite a long post, Shanti. A few things I could comment on, but one thing you said caught my attention in particular.

        You say, “Osho always seemed to play down satori, and I’ve read of quite a few instances where he mentioned that people were prematurely declaring enlightenment.”

        Osho could have mentioned himself in that regard. Osho declared people enlightened who most definitely were not.

  2. satchit says:

    Being alone is a half-truth. How many people are on this planet?

    • satyadeva says:

      Yes, Satchit (and Shantam), although surely Lokesh, via the relevant quote from Osho, is referring to hitting a deeper level of being where you fully realise that, fundamentally, you’re on your own, with all the responsibility implied in that awareness.

      Not necessarily an ‘easy’ space to acknowledge and live from, potentially very scary in fact, whether we like to call ourselves ‘seekers’ or not. But, as some wise guy must have said, “The truth is the truth, whatever you might prefer the case to be.”

  3. frank says:

    “Like a dog without a bone
    An actor out alone
    Riders on the storm

    Jim Morrison(The Doors)

  4. kavita says:

    Just returned from Goa & Bombay yesterday, met a few family members & friends after a gap of 12 years or so. After meeting and sharing our life experiences, the couples envied me for opting for living alone & doing my own thing, while few singles envy me for not having any hangover for a relationship, while they are still hoping for companionship & have somewhat not quite accepted their life alone.

    Somehow now, for me reflecting about living physically in the same house with my mother (she died in Jan of 2019) for nearly 24 years, since we were both quite independent it was practically living alone (before she was bed-ridden) so it was easy to give each other space even after she became bed-ridden.

    After discussing intensely with the people I meet during my travels, have realized life’s problems, if there are any, makes one aware of the life ahead and also realize all problems are self-created, if one is intelligent enough!

    It’s in these nearly 2 years 10 months of living alone & with maybe almost 8 months of travelling around, in fact I realized this is best for me, as I have all the time in the world to observe myself with full attention.

    Lokesh, you are such a churner!

  5. Hey does anyone else live with Osho’s spirit? By this I mean did he come to you as an invisible being that makes sounds and gives you blessings and energy once a week? I got initiated by him like 11 years ago and yeah, it was painful but I stayed faithful and didn’t tell anyone because definitely would get a schizophrenia diagnosis or something and I like the energy and mind clarity.

    My question is: i
    Is there a point where a bunch of energy flows in when your mind is completely clean and non- existent, or when does it happen?

    Also, is there anyone who became enlightened like this from Osho’s disciples?

    And yeah, being alone is hard, it’s just your mind asking for stuff you have to suffer and ride it out, it’ll go away and you’ll be ok being alone. The biggest thing is wanting to have sex, which goes away if you suffer alone long enough; I think this applies to everyone.

    • This is the issue of living in a commune or with other people, you never develop. Pretty sure you have to live alone with the master and suffer through it. I’m in heaven being alone, there are other factors involved that make life beautiful and easy.

      My question again is:
      After being fine with being alone your mind continues to disappear; does anyone know if anyone reached that peak out-of-body state that Osho looks like he’s in?

  6. kavita says:

    In my life in Osho’s Commune, in retrospection, I have observed that almost all friends I met there were never bored of their aloneness, including me!

    Guess I/we knew this before coming to Osho/Poona that I am alone.
    For me I realized much later this ‘I am’ is always alone!

    In this trip it’s been amazing to know that the few people I met are actually talking about meditation now & some have explored meditation techniques like S.N. Goenka’s Vipassana. So it was fun to discuss with them. Some of them have read Osho & also frequently use the word ‘energy’! I used the term ‘collective unconsciousness’ which was a new vocabulary for them, surely it was once for me too. Words do make one explore, which is good to begin with, before one sees the futility of words!

  7. Lokesh says:

    It’s obvious from some of the comments that the difference between being lonely and being alone is being misunderstood. As Satya Deva correctly states, the realization that you are completely alone carries the potential to make one feel afraid. Yet the sooner we embrace our intrinsic aloneness the better because it is not going to leave us, so it makes sense to become friends with it.

    Inhabiting the human realm, as we all do, there is nothing we can hold on to, even if we try because life in this world is impermanent. Everything we own, people we love, our health and many other things we value or have become identified with can be taken away from us without a moment’s warning. We are in a fragile and precarious state because we live in a house of cards that can come tumbling down with a change in the winds of fortune. It is no joke.

    One can feel lonely in a crowd. Loneliness has to do with our inner world and nothing at all to do with the external world. Aloneness is our natural state. I would not say it has either positive or negative aspects to it. It simply is the way it is. As long as we live in a body/mind complex that is the way it is going to be. The only way to transcend this is to embrace one’s aloneness and come to the realization that one is alone along with everyone else, whether they are aware of it or not. It is difficult for me to explain in so many words what I am driving at. Osho is much better at describing such things than I am.

    Osho explains that “man ordinarily lives in loneliness. To avoid loneliness, he creates all kinds of relationships, friendships, organizations, political parties, religions and whatnot. But the basic thing is that he is very much afraid of being lonely. Loneliness is a black hole, a darkness, a frightening negative state almost like death…as if you are being swallowed by death itself. To avoid it, you run out and fall into anybody, just to hold somebody’s hand, to feel that you are not lonely…Nothing hurts more than loneliness.

    But the trouble is, any relationship that arises out of the fear of being lonely is not going to be a blissful experience, because the other is also joining you out of fear. You both call it love. You are both deceiving yourself and the other. It is simply fear, and fear can never be the source of love. Only those who love are absolutely fearless; only those who love are able to be alone, joyously, whose need for the other has disappeared, who are sufficient unto themselves…

    The day you decide that all these efforts are failures, that your loneliness has remained untouched by all your efforts, that is a great moment of understanding. Then only one thing remains: to see whether loneliness is such a thing that you should be afraid of, or if it is just your nature. Then rather than running out and away, you close your eyes and go in. Suddenly the night is over, and a new dawn…The loneliness transforms into aloneness.

    Aloneness is your nature. You were born alone, you will die alone. And you are living alone without understanding it, without being fully aware of it. You misunderstand aloneness as loneliness; it is simply a misunderstanding. You are sufficient unto yourself.”

    • Lokesh is repeating thoughts of 1970s.

      • satyadeva says:

        If so, Shantam, does that necessarily make them less true, or even totally false, or perhaps merely irrelevant?

        Or is he stating a truth of the human condition that’s hard to accept? Or even to seriously consider?

      • Lokesh says:

        Shantam, I would say the ideas posited predate the 1970s by a long shot.

        I’m doing my best to come up with some articles for discussion on SN. Unfortunately, nobody else seems to be making an effort on that level. I would enjoy it if someone else came up with an article. Perhaps you or Satchit could oblige.

        • Klaus says:

          If the rishis spoke English these words would have been included in the Vedas.

          Reading Lokesh’s texts is always a great pleasure for me: masterful, indeed.

          In the last few days of comments I felt that there has been a whiff of ‘mudita’ – sympathetic joy at the successes of others! That is beyond metta and karuna, but before upekha.

          And also, it is far beyond the starter’s stage of ‘bickering’.

          The Best and Worst already arrived today. Marvellous compilation – one could use it as Tarot game…Appreciate, appreciate.

          Go on.

          • Lokesh says:

            Hi Klaus…
            I ordered my book some days ago, but being Spain I will have to wait a few more days to receive it.

            SN definitely needs to have a shot of new blood to boost the quality of the comments…hopefully the book generates at least a little more interest in the site.

            One woman contacted me the other day after ordering the book and told me she had been a sannyasin for over 40 years and never heard of Sannyas News. So, maybe word will spread. Only time will tell.

            Perhaps someone has an idea for a topic. Suggestions welcome.

        • satchit says:

          Relax, Lokesh, not all is in our hands.

          You have been with Poonjaji.
          Maybe you could explain what ‘advaita’ is?

  8. Lokesh says:

    Pre-empting the next question posited by Satchit…

    A concise explanation of Advaita is that as a means of self-enquiry, Vedanta employs a process of negation. A rigourous, step-by-step logic is applied to eliminate all non-essential variables; to strip away the many layers of self-misidentification. In this way, the truth is revealed by removing what is false.

    And what, you might ask, is false? In my estimate, everything apart from that which is making the enquiry, and even that must be dropped eventually.

    • Klaus says:

      Advaita also seems to imply that

      in an anger case there is no seperate I

      in a joy case there is no separate I

      in a typing case there is no separate I

      in a reading case there is no separate…

      in an enlightenment case there is no…

      in a here now case there is…

      and so on and so forth….

      • frank says:

        The first I heard of Papaji was through the tide of spiritual chancers he kicked off and left in his wake – Cohen and the like. I couldn`t believe that people were signing up to that rancid little tosser. Then his disciples wised up, spoke up and kicked him out. Were the rest any better than him?

        Mooji is the biggest name still on the game.

        Disciples still pay heavily to get their egos and their dignity stripped away, knocked about, fucked and relieved of their money whilst being fed some incomprehensible cultish nonsense about enlightenment etc.

        Supply and demand, I suppose.

        • Lokesh says:

          Yes, Frank, I know what you mean.

          I once went to a satsang in a dome on Ibiza. There were about 20 people in attendance. The shaven-headed one appears and talks a lot of incomprehensible nonsense for half an hour. At the end, he asked if anyone had any questions. I raised my hand and said, “I have a question.”
          Swami Satsang says, “Yes. What is it?”
          I said, “What the fuck are you talking about? It just sounded like absolute bullshit to me.”
          Quite naturally, the satsang-giver was lost for words, which made a pleasant change.
          I looked around and asked the rest of the people there, “Any of you lot understand a word of what this joker just said?”
          Everyone remained silent and edged away from me.
          Then Swami Satsang blusters, “You’re trying to hijack this satsang!”
          “Hijack this satsang?” I say. “You have to be joking. I don’t want anything to do with this farce!” And with that, I stood up and left them to it.

          I can’t remember if the guy had ever met Papaji or not. I do know that believing you were enlightened was one of the outcomes of spending time with Papaji. It was relatively easy to get into a no-mind kind of space and imagine that Buddhahood had happened to you, of all people. Of course, for most people, the transcendental effect wore after a few weeks and then it was back to whatever one ranks as normal. Others took it to the next level, like Mooji, and became gurus.

          Enlightened or not they play a useful socio/spiritual role that allows people to enact the guru/disciple drama or shows people that they are wasting their time.

          • Klaus says:

            Frank, Lokesh,

            You are describing the acting out side of someone.

            I intended to look at the anger, joy oneself is experiencing from the inside: if it is total, then there would be no sense of ‘I’ experiencing it.

            As there might be no sense of ‘I’ in typing a comment or reading it.

            Acting out of emotions – in a safe and therapeutic setting – is something Sannyasins should have a lot of experience with. They also might have a lot of experience in feeling the fakeness in something or someone. And then move away instead of getting and feeling trapped.

            In that sense….

    • satchit says:

      Two questions, Lokesh:

      1. Does being a sannyasin also belong to the self-misidentification, the false?

      2. Is negation of the negation also part of the process?

  9. Other than hearsay, we don’t have any idea what kind of past life has shaped this life and what is going to be the outcome in future.

    While reading the news about Jeff Bezos and his girlfriend, one thought was, who knows Mr. Bezos was some Indian mystic meditating silently and yet inside were lurking dreams to rule the world one day?

    To reach any peak of any field is not a one life affair, there must be preparations for lives to touch the summit, have 15 minutes of fame and back to oblivion or maybe Salvation; if there is something really exists beyond the gossips myths and wishful thinking.

    • satyadeva says:

      Ah, the Glamour of Worldly Success, with the all-important Glamorous Girlfriend…Dream on, Shantam…

      You thought your own version, your ‘Sannyas Dream’ would last forever…

      But who knows, maybe next life..?

      Dream on, Swami, dream on….

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, the idea of past and future lives is just that…an idea. All that you can actually know about is here in this life, whether or not you believe that this life has anything to do with a past life will not make any difference to what is happening in your life now.

      You could take it a step further and ask what or who it is that supposedly has a life to live. If you look deeply enough you will come to the conclusion that you as a reincarnation entity is a vague notion at best, that there is only life and you are somehow part of it. Better not to think about it too much and just get on with the act of living. In my case that means going and chopping a stack of firewood.

      • frank says:

        “Certainly Shantambhai`s practice of religiously reading wisdom sutras of Daily Mail every day is having far-reaching effects on his consciousness!

        He is meditating hard for better birth where he will replace comfort of pillow of mighty spiritual mammaries of mighty Bhorat with ekdam quality silicon-boob-job trophy wife from Silicon valley!


  10. SD, if I have dreams they are based on study and research.

    Taking moral high ground and living in glamour and luxury; I think great movements of 20th century deserve to end as footnotes in the history. They have left very, very bad precedents.

    • satyadeva says:

      “Study and research”…Sounds impeccable, Shantam, but are you sure you haven’t left out the most important factor, your ‘self’? As Lokesh suggests, have you any inkling of who or what might be this entity that migrates from one life to another?

      So far, I’ve seen no indication that you have, but you’re far from alone in this, as such an enquiry is conveniently left out of almost all musings about ‘reincarnation’ that I’ve come across, including my own.

      Until one comes to terms with this most elusive and perhaps uncomfortable (to the mind and emotions) interior reality any speculation about past and future lives remains shallow, an entertaining diversion from the present, even another psychological ‘crutch’ to console oneself with, in other words, another ‘dream’.

      The disillusioned flavour of almost all your posts would appear to indicate the motivation for such mental escape routes.

      If you find this hard to accept can you see why?

      • One needs intelligence to feel disillusionment and a cunning mind to deny ‘Bank of Neo-Beliefs’ has failed…

        SD, as I see your posts, you are living in a comfort zone of inner space with your borrowed techniques.

        Ask yourself, why you get panic to publish an article which can provoke thoughts, why you are careful about cultivated respectability?

        The thing is, wise people don´t ask questions to themselves, and in the process they remain schoolmasters till the end.

        • satyadeva says:

          Well, Shantam, 0/10 for your reply, as you merely ignored what I’d said in the previous lesson.

          In your half-term Report I’ve noted that while you’re intelligent enough to be disillusioned, you don’t appear to be wise enough, awake enough to examine your own part in how you’ve ended up this way, otherwise you wouldn’t be such a chronic complainer. Have you learned nothing from all those years with the Head Master?

          For your homework, why not take your own advice and “ask questions” of yourself – deeper ones than the usual blame-laying stuff you content yourself with – otherwise you’ll never move on from your current unhappy low-grade “comfort zone” to the next level of the Great School of Life….

          What rejected article are you referring to? Surely not that nonsense about name changes?

    • Klaus says:

      very, very bad precedents

      very bad precedents

      bad precedents

      neutral precedents

      good precendents

      very good precedents

      very, very good precendents

      transcendental precedents

      superconscious precedents

      beyond the beyond the beyond precedents.

      All categories listed?
      All categories experienced?
      All categories attributed? To Sannyas? To others, too?

      Stating the very, very bad precedents, in my opinion, excludes the others. Are they there, in Sannyas? Can they be experienced, in Sannyas?

      That is the quetching.

      “quetching”…that’s a new one, Klaus…did you mean to write this?!

      It is ironic for ‘the question’…

      Btw, just found the verb ‘to kvetch’ – ‘kvetching’ here:
      synonyms: to complain, bemoan, deplore, bewail, lament, mourn about/something.

      Somewhat fitting the context, isn’t it?

  11. frank says:

    The world is changing.
    Old sannyasins from OshoNews obituaries may be being reborn in Nepal.
    Will they join Osho/Arun religion or become Himalayan Headbangers?
    There`s a Zen koan for you.

    • frank says:

      `Himalayan Headbanger` has a perfect ring to it.

      Reminds me of my old Lama, Nobby Norbu, he of the toothless grin who, on account of hard-earned siddhis could spend hours out in the sub-zero wilds of Tibet wearing nothing but a wet blanket, keeping warm by smashing empty bottles of Chang over his head.

  12. Nityaprem says:

    I find it interesting, Lokesh, that you choose to end on a quote about being “alone”. For me, sannyasins are like family. And one of the most common spiritual experiences is the one of unity, showing that we are never alone. In fact, even to say that I am is a conundrum, a riddle that may have no solution.

  13. Lokesh says:

    Hi NP,

    You say, “For me, sannyasins are like family. And one of the most common spiritual experiences is the one of unity, showing that we are never alone.”

    Yes, I know what you mean. I feel that also, up to a certain extent, but not all the way. To really believe that suggests you have never really been put in a situation extreme enough to test the bonds of the sannyas family, which definitely have their limitations. When I went through some extreme life challenges I discovered that my real family’s love, devotion and surrender ran much deeper than that provided by my sannyasin family. We are all different and therefore our life experiences will also differ. There is no fixed universal rule on such matters. We discover what we need to discover.

    You continue, “And one of the most common spiritual experiences is the one of unity, showing that we are never alone.”

    That all depends on one’s perception. I am open to change. After 70 years of living, I have to admit that in this life you are on your own. That aloneness brings a certain unity with other people…united in our aloneness.

    You conclude, “In fact, even to say that I am is a conundrum, a riddle that may have no solution.”
    I think that your conundrum is based, like most of us, in the idea that you exist as a separate entity. We all feel that in our daily dreaming state. It only requires a little awakening, in some form or another, to wake you up to the fact that the idea that you exist as a separate entity is based on pretty shaky ground. Such awakenings can bring the existential realization that rather than being alone we are all one etc. I am sure you have heard it all before.

    I conclude with a wee quote from my book ‘Sagara’:
    “The sannyasin community was, in many respects, selfish. Rajneesh encouraged his followers to be selfish, in the sense that selfish means to be yourself. The controversial master taught that the path to authentic altruism involved being only concerned with oneself in the preliminary stages of the process. By being self-centred, the genuine need to share with others would soon arise.

    On another level, the Rajneesh ashram, with its madhouse-carnival atmosphere, was like a fun-filled surf party, where everyone involved was riding the waves of change and bliss emanating from the tidal epicentre that was Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. If one was unfortunate enough to wipe-out and fall into life’s churning undercurrents, then you had to learn to swim fast.”

    • frank says:

      The love of the religious family (even a religionless religious one), despite the bandying around of ideas like “unconditional love” can be extremely conditional. It`s conditional on having the same world view and toeing the line.

      What happens to those who start to not buy into the central tenets of the group/express doubts etc? They become treated as outcasts. Remember in the red days, ex-sannyasins were referred to as “the late so and so”. A bit heavy. The sort of families that do that kind of stuff in the outside world are fundamentalists who say to family members, “you are dead to me” when they transgress the moral/religious code.

      By contrast, of course, many blood families will still support members who have acted in ways that are anathema to them and their core beliefs. Blood is thicker than water as the proverb goes.

      • Lokesh says:

        Yeah, I have to agree, Frank. It was a bit of a rude awakening waking up to all that. I had my illusions about the sannyasin family broken to such an extent that I was left feeling bitter for some time. I got over it. People say they want to wake up from their illusions, but sometimes the feeling of disillusionment can be heartbreaking.

        Robert Plant’s voice echoes in my mind…
        “Oh, nobody’s fault but mine, yeah
        Nobody’s fault but mine, yeah
        Trying to save my soul to light
        Oh, it’s nobody’s fault but mine.”

      • satchit says:

        Frank, maybe you can explain what are the central tenets of Sannyas?

        • frank says:

          Actually, the details of the tenets are not really relevant to the point I`m making, which is essentially that the purported unconditional love in the spiritual group, particularly that of the guru, is actually deeply conditional if looked at with clarity.

          • satchit says:

            Not really, Frank,

            The Master not only loves his disciples.
            He loves also those who have left him.

            Remember the story of the lost sheep!

            • frank says:

              Could you describe a moment when you felt the master`s love for you?

              • satchit says:

                @ Frank

                You must be open to feel the Love. If you are not open, you don’t feel anything.

                It is similar to watching a sunset. If you are not open to see the beauty, you don’t see it.

                • frank says:

                  I was more asking for a personal account rather than some second-hand abstract philosophising that can be found and parroted from any newage book.

                • satchit says:

                  @ Frank

                  Yes, I see you did not get a personal account. Why not?

                  I can imagine the reason is your negative attitude towards Masters and such things.

                  Instant Karma!

                  Btw, nice song from John Lennon.

          • swamishanti says:


            The “unconditional love” of the guru can be felt, but only when your own heart is open and itself unconditionally loving. This is similar to being ‘loved up’ on ecstasy. Except perhaps with less excitement and you don’t want to hug everyone in the supermarket.

            The problem is that the ‘clarity’ you speak of is not the clarity of a meditator or a devotee but rather of a doubtful mind.

            I’m sure you’ve dropped some acid before. You experienced a greatly increased consciousness? What if someone was telling you that your experience of heightened consciousness after taking acid was just your imagination, a placebo affect? Wouldn’t that seem absurd to you?

            • frank says:

              If your heart is open and loving, it is open and loving.
              Whether you ascribe it to Osho, Jesus or anyone else is your choice, and a matter of imagination.

              You also ask, “What if someone was telling you that your experience of heightened consciousness after taking acid was just your imagination, a placebo effect? Wouldn’t that seem absurd to you?”
              It wouldn`t be so much absurd as meaningless because the experiment could be repeated with other people and they would all feel the effect of the drug because it is a strong drug.

              Some of the trippers might feel they are spiritual and some may feel chased by the devil. And a whole bunch of other possibilities.
              That would be down to their imagination.

              You also say, “The problem is that the ‘clarity’ you speak of is not the clarity of a meditator or a devotee but rather of a doubtful mind.”
              You are drifting into Swami Bhorat territory here, bro.

              • swamishanti says:

                @Frank wrote: “If your heart is open and loving, it is open and loving.
                Whether you ascribe it to Osho, Jesus or anyone else is your choice, and a matter of imagination.”

                In my case I do not ascribe it to Osho, Jesus or anyone else. Although heart openings can happen as a direct result of being in the presence of masters such as Osho, or Jesus, this was not the way it happened for me, but rather as a result of my own meditation.

                It is not a matter of imagination anymore than any love you (may) have felt during your ecstasy/acid days.

                So you believe that your heightened consciousness through taking acid was real – because others have reported similar experiences and it is a powerful drug. But humans have been having expanded consciousness for eons without the use of drugs before lsd-25 was ever synthesised.

                When it happens through meditation alone or working with masters, one can develop the same consciousness to being on an acid or mushroom trip – except without the extra colours and moving patterns on the walls and the sky etc, and as an ongoing thing, not just a temporary lift.

                Obviously individuals will have different experiences and consciousness can also fluctuate. The difference with a drug-induced consciousness is that moving very quickly up from a normal state of consciousness to very high could potentially be unsettling , for the mind which is accustomed to its little box. But this will depend on the state of mind and mood of the individual at the time , prior experience with psychedelics, intentions of use, amount ingested and environment etc.

                • frank says:

                  Shanti, to me your mash-up of spiritual experiences with drug trips sounds like confusion.

                  I`m not looking for love in a pill.
                  Or for a fix from any “masters”.

                  Maybe come down to earth a bit, bro?
                  It`s good here.

                • Klaus says:

                  5 May, 10.11

                  Lovely conment…a heartfelt invitation…to stay with the rest of humankind…and relax, enjoy!

                • swamishanti says:

                  Experienced trippers such as Raja Ram, Shanti and Lokesh know how to ride the waves and enjoy the rainbows and fireworks of the psychedelic experience.

                  A native American occasionally goes off into the hills and chews peyote for spiritual visions.

                  Personally, I haven’t indulged in any such chemicals, lsd or mdma, since the last century…even though nearby nature provides an abundance of special plants which can provide a lot of laughter and colourful patterns and provide new insights…I also pass those by.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Nothing quite like a psychedelic experience for blowing the cobwebs out from the canyons of your mind.

                  Raja Ram is quite a legend on that level, and he is also a lovely, intelligent and highly creative man. A while back I read a book, ‘Mystery School in Hyperspace: A Cultural History of DMT’, in which there are some stories about Raja’s escapades…he is hard core. My tripping days, for the most part, are over, but every once in a while….

  14. Lokesh says:

    Coming to a cinema near you, ‘The Lost Sheep’, a shaggy sheep story starring Satchit as Dolly the wayward cloned ewe.

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