This Thing Called Enlightenment

Is Enlightenment real or is it merely a “story”, a sort of marketing ploy to attract people to a Master?  Shantam Prem suggests it’s the latter.

At the Cosmic Job Centre,  “Anti-Guru guru” job slot is open.
I am thinking of applying for this.
Fusing Enlightenment myths will be fun!
 
May I ask esteemed and long time Osho disciples their opinion about this thing called Enlightenment, especially when we see so many of them popping up declaring their great happening at a certain hour of a certain day.
 
In my not so humble opinion, I think Osho also cooked this story to be more saleable and impress others, though I believe Master was born to fulfil a certain mission. 
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295 Responses to This Thing Called Enlightenment

  1. Arpana says:

    Your image of the donkey (at end of previous thread)…

    I have wondered for a long time if enlightement is just a story, a carrot, but we can grow in the pursuit of that carrot.

    I’ve suggested before that Osho works to get us moving and keep us moving, rather than works to get us all to a special place.

    • Arpana says:

      Further to this:

      Anyone who gets interested in enlightenment is future-oriented, goal-oriented, to a greater or lesser degree; and I assume the pursuit of enlightenment brings that goal-oriented outlook to a focus.

      So certainly in my own case, the early years of Sannyas were about the pursuit of enlightenment, the pursuit of that goal unwittingly, because I came from a very future-oriented, formal career background (which is long gone, as almost entirely is being goal-oriented).

      However, I did change direction dramatically in the pursuit of the goal of enlightenment in those days, and went from living horizontally to living vertically, and in an open-ended, always moving way.

    • satyadeva says:

      Here are some recent comments from the previous thread, which are in fact more relevant to this one.

      (Comments are in reverse time order, the latest first)

      SATCHIT

      Submitted on 2020/07/09 at 12:44 pm

      It’s a difference, SD.

      We all have an experience of sadness, so we know somehow how the other feels if he says he is sad.

      But if somebody says he is enlightened we have no experience.
      So we can only believe him or not.

      The idea of enlightenment belongs to the East.

      And surely it attracted Westerners who were fed up from Christianity.
      And fed up of sins and the Son of God.

      Going on holidays, one finds different food.
      Good for a change

      SATYADEVA

      Submitted on 2020/07/09 at 11.27am

      Nobody knows if it exists or not” – but isn’t this self-evidently true of all internal states and experience reported by others, Satchit?

      On basic levels, especially within one’s own culture (or sub-culture), much of our life is similar to everyone else’s and we can probably pretty accurately more or less ‘know’ (or think we know) what others are going through by reading the signs of their speech and body language, and even on other levels by how they express themselves in more sophisticated ways like writing, music or art, although this becomes increasingly less so when we consider those who move beyond the familar that’s common to all of us.

      That’s why we’re fascinated by tales of ‘experiential outliers’, the more extreme the better, eg ‘miracles’, enormous wealth and/or power, fame, war, murder, imprisonment – and, of course, ‘spiritual heroism’.

      Even on basic levels, although very often we can draw parallels and make assumptions based on our own subjectivity and conditioning, can we ever actually 100% know exactly what is going on inside the other? Even when they say they love us? The answer has to be no, doesn’t it? Which is a pretty radical truth to consider. The implication being that fundamentally, behind everyday appearances, we are alone in the universe.

      Perhaps when it comes to claimed ‘enlightenment’ we simply have nothing to fall back upon, except the sense of ‘rightness’ we may feel in the presence of such a person. And whether being with them and following their teaching is helpful.

      SHANTAM PREM

      Submitted on 2020/07/09 at 10:27 am

      Before we go to new article, let me add the final touch to this one with a nice cartoon.

      MOD:
      See the ‘Donkey straining to reach a carrot’ cartoon near the end of the previous topic, ‘To Resist or not to Resist’.

      SATCHIT

      Submitted on 2020/07/09 at 7:08 am

      “enlightened credentials”…

      The word ‘enlightenment’ does not belong to our Western cultural field.

      SD, nobody knows if it exists or not. Maybe it is just a device to help people.

      At the most you can say if it smells of something, like it smells of spaghetti.

      SATYADEVA

      Submitted on 2020/07/08 at 11:27 pm

      Perhaps so, Satchit, although I wouldn’t really know, and I haven’t seen or heard of anyone like Che Guevara since ancient times also previously having ‘enlightened credentials’. Have you?

      SATCHIT

      Submitted on 2020/07/08

      Why should I look for a reaction, Loco?

      We all know that you react immediately.
      And your reaction is very much the same old same.
      Not very creative.

      SATCHIT

      Submitted on 2020/07/08 at 8:07 pm

      If you ask me, SD, I say a Buddha is unlimited.

      He can become whatever it happens to him:
      a carpenter, a taxidriver, a Che Guevara, a professor of philosophy.

      LOKESH (in response to SATCHIT stating that an enlightened person can do whatever he wants, including “becoming a Che Guevara”)

      Submitted on 2020/07/08 at 7:42 pm
      The idea that an enlightened man would want to become anyone is absurd.

      Satchit, I feel you are just looking for a reaction. I do not have the impression that there is anything much behind your words. It is the reaction that counts, no matter what form it takes.

      I feel like I am wasting my time responding to your shallow comments. I do not enjoy wasting my time. I think you are bored.

    • Klaus says:

      Only today I came to appreciate your comment:

      “…to get us moving and keep us moving, rather than get us to a special place.”

      Very fitting.

  2. Lokesh says:

    Yes, certain so-called masters used the concept of enlightenment as a marketing ploy…the golden carrot.
    Genuine masters did not. They simply shared what had happened to them and thus inspired people to look within.

    In Osho’s case we have a bit of a mixed bag. He had a very controversial personality and thus to this day controversy surrounds him. Gurus retain a sense of personality even when enlightened, seeing personality for the mask that it is, while not denying its superficial existence.

    Osho continues to inspire millions of people, as do many other masters, alive and deceased. In a world that promotes the shallow as truth, we need inspirational figures like Osho to remind us of the bigger picture and that even a false guru can teach us something about ourselves if we remain open and receptive.

  3. kavita says:

    The use of this ‘E’ word was only as an adjective as in ‘enlightening’, but as in ‘enlightened being/person’ it came to my knowledge only after coming to Poona!

    After reading Shantam’s article,”May I ask esteemed and long time Osho disciples their opinion?”, first thought was are we in a Hindi film court room?!

    I somehow do think that this so-called enlightenment/Master-Disciple game is mostly an Existential game, in the sense that this is mostly an unplanned-game for both Master/Disciple, if I may say so!

    As for “Is Enlightenment real or is it merely a “story”, a sort of marketing ploy to attract people to a Master?” Yes, surely/mostly what any Master is marketing is an essential need for the disciple! I think a story is inevitably a reality of the the past & probably the present moment is the only truth!

  4. Klaus says:

    As a twenty year-old I started meditating without any idea of “enlightenment”.

    When in India, I felt that this would be a good thing to do in the sense of the Cat Stevens Song, ‘On The Road To Find Out’:
    “Well I left my happy home to see what I could find out
    I left my folk and friends with the aim to clear my mind out
    Well, I hit the rowdy road and many kinds I met there
    Many stories told me of the way to get there
    So on and on I go, the seconds tick the time out
    There’s so much left to know, and I’m on the road to find out…”

    So, I practised a lot of sitting, walking, standing meditation.
    Next, quite some therapy and lets call it self-discovery, de-programming etc.

    Today, there is not so much seeking of something somewhere else, when I can sit quietly in a park and just look and be and feel.

    So the process went from “a rather heavy load” to “happygolightly”.
    Enlightenment? Whatever that is: a big flash and a bang? Quietly slip-sliding-away? Free falling? The end of a song?

    I certainly feel from a very personal view that one has to walk the talk:
    the benefits of Shaktipat are impermanent and transient, too.

  5. Next article, please.
    Is there something to discuss on theme?
    Thanks for your participation.

    When chicken is cooked as tofu, one eats and sleeps or meditates in silence.

    MOD:
    Perhaps readers are awaiting your own comments, Shantam….

  6. When I started reading Osho books and felt totally absorbed by them, there was no idea that 21st March 1952 is a milestone date in His life, that Buddha kind of under the tree illumination happened. Years later, I saw that tree.

    If someone does not tell this is the tree, it looks not any different than other trees. Let us say, if Osho ashes are removed from their place and some other bricks and stones are kept, will the room have a different energy? As one sees from the early days photos, Osho seems to be a man on the mission. India gives enough room to play guru and bring your own interpretations about Religion.

    This was Osho´s domain.

    The idea that someday at some hour some explosion happens, as it is said, at 100 degrees water evaporates is true, then it is also a fact that evaporation becomes dewdrops and the same water is there under the cooling effect. It means the so-called Enlightenment is not a fixed, eternal state. Its gas cylinder also becomes empty. So many of them are around, there is enough scope to study the life and behaviour of Enlightened people.

    I see them as Entrepreneurs; it means Rajneesh or Samdarshi or Samarpan or Dolano are not wiser than Lokesh, Satyadeva, Shantam or Kavita, they have hunger and instinct to be a successful public face. Few people study a subject to become a teacher of that subject.

    Naturally the teacher influences the students coming to him. I think there is enough material written in a single go to contemplate and discuss. I stay with my hypothesis: Enlightenment is over hyped, like G spot. Even if you have a G spot it doesn’t mean your offspring will be more beautiful, intelligent and healthy. It also means in similar given circumstances so-called Enlightened people will commit the similar mistakes as any average person. 

    Calling mistakes of such people ‘devices’ is as good as believing Jesus was born out of virgin Mary. Things spoken as metaphors can be good poetry but not facts. 

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, you keep repeating the phrase “so-called enlightenment”, which indicates you do not actually believe in enlightenment, or else you would simply say ‘enlightenment’. Such is the nature of belief and doubt, one gathers information to substantiate one or the other.

      You are very preoccupied with all things Osho. Yet you never actually met the man, as in sitting down face-to-face with him and having a chat.

      In your case I have to say that is a pity, because had you actually encountered Osho in such a way the question of whether or not enlightenment exists would not have such a hold on your mind. Osho was many things to many people. Sitting in front of the man, receiving his full attention, while looking into his fathomless eyes one could not help but feel that enlightenment was a very real possibility.

      I rarely talk or think about such matters, except on SN, but I do remember. Osho was a reminder of our potential…a very strong reminder.

      • Lokesh, almost once a month you remind others you were sitting face-to-face with Osho, others were not.

        This is a good theme for one of my next facebook videos, ‘Alive Master: Super Alive i.e dead Masters’.

        Let me tell one thing, your sitting with Osho was not as exclusive as one listens in the Zen Stories. Thousands have got this chance to sit with Osho, got energy from him or some wise words of inspiration, consolation.

        Do you think these thousands of people were unique or have got some extra benefits? Naturally, a monarch saying “Hello” to a subject becomes milestone for such person.

        • Lokesh says:

          Facebook videos! Shantam, that pretty much encapsulates where you are at. Personally, I think your vids are strictly for the classroom chumps. Each to their own.

          You speak so much about Osho but your voice lacks experience. That you never actually met Osho may well be a thorn in your side. It’s not my fault. It’s nobody’s fault. If you did not meet Osho it just means you were not meant to.
          Back in the sixties, the opportunity arose to go and meet Neem Karola Baba. I did not go for it. For some years I was shadowed by the feeling that I really missed out. Time passed and I saw the reason I did not get to meet the baba was that I was simply not ready for what he had to share. Acceptance.

          Shantam, I am not saying that is the same reason that you missed meeting Osho. What I am saying is that one needs to be honest with oneself. That way acceptance will have a chance of arising.

          One of my first impressions upon meeting Poonjaji was that I had been brought to his feet by forces greater than my limited ego self.

          When I first met Osho I felt like I had arrived home after a very long journey.

          I share these stories with you because I love to share. How you interpret my sharing is a matter of karmic consequence, much in the way that I view your vids on Facebook as kid’s stuff because that is my karmic viewpoint.

          Bottom line is that one has to let go of what was not meant for you in the first place.

        • satyadeva says:

          Shantam, you ask, “Do you think these thousands of people were unique or have got some extra benefits?”

          Re the first question, I’d say these people were fortunate and/or highly motivated, not “unique”, ‘special’, but I know quite a few, including myself, who’d say yes to the second one, and, I suspect, so would very many others. But ultimately it’s down to the individual, what one makes of it.

          Also such benefits might not necessarily be obvious from the outside, but even so-called ‘small’ things count and can be crucial at a certain stage; ‘seeds’, if nurtured, can grow in time, even if it takes a lifetime (or more)….

          While considering such evaluations, Shantam, have you ever considered the likelihood or otherwise of any personal bias entering into your conclusions? Eg something like “There was nothing of value to get anyway so I didn’t miss anything”? Which would be a most convenient, self-made insurance against the risk of any incipient sense of personal failure, wouldn’t it?

          Lokesh provides some wise advice, I think (2.20pm today). It might be hard to accept, I don’t know, but perhaps if you meditate on it, take it to heart, you won’t need to play these mind-games any more and can get on with your life with greater clarity, enriched by your considerable and, in terms of your cultural conditioning, highly unconventional experience.

          .

          • Klaus says:

            I feel that both the above comments from Satyadeva and Lokesh are by quite experienced persons with regard to the development on the inner path.

            Both comments are heartfelt and well-meaning for reflections of one’s own position. Not nasty at all, imo.
            Exactly ‘how it should be’ when one wants to give direct feedback in a communication.

            Honesty about what is really going on inside oneself – probably – is the most important item to use in self-reflection.

            And: it is not a competition. It is a sharing.

            We had and have differing conditions and situations on the outside as well as differing perceptions on the inside.

            Cheers.

    • satchit says:

      Shantam, your statement that enlightenment is over-hyped is a rationalisation.

      The fox is saying that the grapes are sour.

      • Satchit, your bookish and childish knowledge is well recognised.
        Let me see your face to find out whether some presence, some intelligence shines.

        For me, grapes are sour and you are one of those who is drinking Champagne; if it so, enjoy.

        • satchit says:

          You want to know my opinion about enlightenment. Certainly it exists.

          There is no other reason you felt absorbed reading his words. This happens when the soul is hungry.

          I suggest you look into the mirror to find out if you see some light.
          I see only the darkness of ego.

          • Satchit, please do one thing.
            Among hundreds of tits and bits you have posted, please copy/paste one post which you think yourself is coming out from hunger of your soul.

            Just One post, please.

            • satchit says:

              Ego-games, Shantam.

              Why should I post something?
              That you can judge, yes or no, there is light in it.
              This is childish.

              The soul is not interested in the opinion of others.

            • I am not impressed with “enlightened” people, my heart beats for visionaries.
              Osho was & is a Visionary.

              His enlightenment was an advertisement billboard.

              Hungry followers started licking the billboard, thinking it is a chocolate!

              And master too got enchanted by such act of doggy loyalty shown by hungry foxes.

              • satchit says:

                Surely, mind can create its own movie.

              • Klaus says:

                I have put together a graph of my life’s journey incl. ups and downs and important milestones on a timeline.

                Osho is way above in the transcendent realm…One may put any other Masters, teachers, guides, friends into the picture.

                My sense of Osho is that he is so accessible, so loving, so available, so compassionate, so fearless.

                This is not the case with other teachers besides Osho which I came to know; I would put each of them at a different spot in the graph.
                But then again: they are all ‘hanging in space’ at their unique position.
                I am currently hanging in the position at the end of the line.

                There is a lot of space around the lines drawn. Mind you.

                What is is. Up or down dont matter soo much. As Lokesh was writing: acceptance is a great gift.

  7. Klaus says:

    Referee, please.

    Funny fights – all knockouts!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRe4uwRF0Pg

    Game ova.

  8. samarpan says:

    Why not live the present moment fully and simply enjoy life? Each breath is a gift. Why talk about “enlightenment”? Maybe because the ego makes you think enlightenment is somehow special?

    Fuggedaboutit.

    “Don’t make enlightenment a desire; otherwise you will go on missing. What I suggest to you is, forget about enlightenment. It has nothing to do with you, you will never see it; it happens when you are not. When you have peeled the onion completely, when your ego evaporates, it is there. But you cannot say, “I have become enlightened.” The “I” is no more there – enlightenment is there.”
    (Osho, ‘From the False to the Truth’ chapter 26).

    • Arpana says:

      Isn’t possible to talk about ”enlightenment” and not talk about ”enlightenment” at the same time, you know.

      Doesn’t matter who’s doing the talking or how you phrase the comment.

      So this observation is an observation about your observation, about the other observations, about ”enlightenment.” Still in the same arena.

      And then we are actually talking about the word rather than the experience.

  9. simond says:

    For all practical reasons, for the ordinary person, the question as to who and what enlightenment is, is pretty irrelevant. The teacher may espouse his or her credentials in many ways, “enlightenment” in my opinion being unimportant.

    Does what they speak resonate with you? When you question them, do they answer your questions or do they confuse you with spiritual nonsense? Listen to Eckhart Tolle, for example, and he will often appear quite sweet, even informative for a while, but real questions about sex, anger, emotions and how to live with man or woman and he’s evasive and simplistic. He may be “enlightened” of many aspects of the mind, but not of others. If he were, he would be able to satisfy those deeper, more difficult questions.

    With Osho, he was so clearly able to speak of and to many far more personal and real questions, and was rarely evasive, but his enlightenment was still of the East.

    But then that is the dilemma about Enlightenment. For me, it simply means the self-knowledge and ability to understand and communicate the wonder and the craziness of all aspects of our mind. To therefore provide an enlightening or freeing understanding of the human condition. It has very little to do with specific spiritual experiences, or samadhi.

    • satyadeva says:

      Good points, simond.

      What exactly do you mean by Osho’s “enlightenment was of the East”? You appear to suggest that him being born, nurtured and conditioned in the East was necessarily some sort of limitation, despite the apparent depth of his realisation, his intellectual capacity and the profoundly loving presence.he emanated.

      Are you thinking of how he dealt with the Oregon adventure? Or do you think his background somehow limited his ability to help westerners?

  10. simond says:

    I’d say he was enlightened of the East, in the sense that his background was of the East and his teaching was conditioned very much but not totally, by the East. For example, Sannyas itself, the commune, the ashram, disciplehood are all largely eastern in origin, even if the West has its own versions, especially in the past.

    Yes, he read widely, and was influenced by the therapists of the West, but did he ever truly appreciate the western mind or the problems of western culture? We can’t solve our problems by communes or ashrams, we don’t live in an Eastern culture where these things are understood.

    His emphasis on meditation of all sorts hasn’t filtered through to the West to any real degree. It’s still as misunderstood as it ever was. Indeed, the fascination with the Eastern spiritual teaching has largely unaffected how we think or live in the West. Yes, there are a number of eastern teachers and western teachers much influenced by the East, but their solutions aren’t reaching many.

    And many influenced by Osho and others are as mixed up and confused as they ever were. Lost in ideas of enlightenment, bliss, nowness etc. Many older sannyassins I know are lost in a dream of a spiritual past, smoking their roll-ups and hanging images of a dead guru on their walls.

    • Arpana says:

      ”Many older sannyassins I know are lost in a dream of a spiritual past, smoking their roll-ups and hanging images of a dead guru on their walls.”

      This is a shantamism, Rev; aka confirmation bias.

    • Lokesh says:

      Of all the masters who influenced Osho’s ideas I would say Gurdjieff was numero uno. Mr G was a westerner and rarely used the word ‘enlightenment’.

      Just before Osho’s rise in popularity there was much talk of the meeting between East and West. Osho did a very good job of fusing the two.

      Of course, Osho had a personality formed in Mother India. We all have our personalities, even the masters. Osho’s approach was universal.

      Recently revisited Tim Leary’s ‘High Priest’. Leary was a pioneer and was hip to teachings like Advaita Vedanta back in 1960. Through his psychedelic research he believed the East held the answers to the big questions, like who is asking the questions? So the West was heading East, while the East was making inroads in the West. Osho came along at just the right time to pull it all together.

      Unfortunately, he headed west with a poor understanding of how society and politics work in the USA. To make the situation worse he put a madwoman in charge. Tough titties! It might have worked with more cash in the coffers, but the commune did not have enough money to pay American style baksheesh and thus the downfall of the Ranch…viewed publically as just another crackpot cult.

      Osho headed back to India because he knew how it worked. America, once hailed by Osho as the country where zen would flower, reduced, in Osho’s eyes, to the level of Tolkein’s Mordar.

      Oh well, maybe Kipling was right when he said, “Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.” But Osho did his best to make it happen, and, to a certain degree, he succeeeded.

    • satchit says:

      Yes, the idea of enlightenment belongs to the East.
      But the longing to know oneself, to become more (or less) than the ordinary self exists also in the West.

      Enlightenment means dying of the ego and being born new. For Westerners this idea is exotic. It is like someone says he has visited Atlantis and now he is back and tells that Atlantis exists. Trust is needed for this journey!

      • satyadeva says:

        Perhaps “this idea is exotic” because it’s been ‘glamourised’ by images of inner ‘explosions’, ultimate, everlasting ecstasies etc. (from the East) or by tales of hermetic deprivation, the traditional so-called ‘spiritual life’ from the West.

        This includes phrases like “dying of the ego and being born new”, which are rarely explained in terms of what they imply in everyday life, our mundane, decidedly unglamorous personal realities. It can be hard enough ‘dying’ to single instances of anger, resentment, jealousy, fear etc. etc., never mind our entire self all in one go!

        • satchit says:

          I would say ‘dying of the ego’ is also possible in homeopathic dose if you move from the known to the unknown.

          • Arpana says:

            What does this mean?
            Dying of the ego can happen by becoming involved wth the familiar and then letting go of old interests.

            Art students become identified, for example, with using oil paints, and then decide to try out acrylics, which they see being used around them regularly, and struggle with the change (mind you, art students can get identified with their own farts).

      • Arpana says:

        Came to realise I trusted Osho from the word go, which has strengthened over the years; but also I must have trusted my trust in him, and do trust my trust in him still.

    • Re: simond says:
      13 July, 2020 at 7:31 pm

      Simond, the thoughts in this post are really intelligently observant. I think they need to discussed without bias.

      The impact of this post was staying with me so I scrolled back to re-read this.

      I must say, Osho and His western disciples were a relation of circumstances.
      The westerners got Indian names in bulk without showing any respect, any reverence for the culture which produced Osho.
      Osho and West was a one generation affair.
      Without doubt, it has influenced the western mind, it has contributed something tender and mysterious.

  11. Klaus says:

    With the Oregon project possibly there has been a move towards quantity and away from quality.

    This swami, for instance, is writing that he left Pune, “because he felt the words were not meant for the disciples any more”, but rather “there was an agenda addressed to the press and to politicians”:
    https://www.oshonews.com/2020/07/06/swimming-on-my-own/

    Here there are answers by Osho to questions on “enlightenment” and “the bodies”: when can one see the gap between the thoughts, when identification subsides etc:
    https://o-meditation.com/category/enlightenment/

    It surely is about personal experience and whether it holds without the presence of the Master.

    • Klaus says:

      Quote from the texts above:

      “Man is suffering for the simple reason that he does not know himself. His ignorance about himself is the only cause of his suffering, misery, torture.

      Enlightenment brings everything to a very simple and scientific conclusion. It pinpoints that all that you need is to learn the art of awareness.

      You are a seed: enlightenment is nothing but finding the right soil and waiting for the spring to come.”

  12. kavita says:

    ”…but his enlightenment was still of the East.” (Simond) .
    How can anyone be born in both the East as well as the West?!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(spiritual)

    • kavita says:

      Dorsn’t ‘Enlightenment’ also mean it doesn’t matter which part of the Earth one is born, one just respects and honours all life forms and also has nothing to do with any particular religion but is beyond any religion?

      Why do we have to divide Enlightenment geographically, in the first place?!

      Of course, I don’t want to sound like ‘I know it all’.

  13. kavita says:

    ”Mr G was a westerner”
    Lokesh, actually, probably he was not a real westerner, more of a ‘centraler’ geographically in that sense since he was born in Russia, which is the closest western country to Asia/East. Also he probably had exposure to Islamic culture, which a westerner didn’t have in those days.

    • Kavita,
      Don´t try to correct Lokesh.
      Gent was sitting face-to-face with Bhagwan.
      You have seen only the videos. You were not sitting even in congregation.

      When Bhagwan and his chums say, sun rises from the west, it will.
      Existence cannot ignore the suggestions of his priests.

      • Lokesh says:

        Poor Shantam, can’t get over being called on his ridiculous crusade to implement Osho’s vision, having never met the man. If viewed by OIF, he must surely be seen as a right pain in the arse. Good for an ironic chuckle is about the extent of it.

        I have noticed over the years a certain behaviour pattern in people struggling in the world…they become really spiritual…in their heads. That is the thing about spirituality…it’s invisible. But you know for sure you are a chosen one, even if nobody else believes it.

        P.S:
        Gurdjieff was of Greek and Armenian descent.

        • kavita says:

          Lokesh, you are right, but he spent his childhood in Kars, which, from 1878 to 1918, was the administrative capital of the Russian-ruled Transcaucasus province of Kars Oblast, a border region recently captured from the Ottoman Empire & travelled many times to Russia from 1912.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Gurdjieff

        • “I have noticed over the years a certain behaviour pattern in people struggling in the world…they become really spiritual…in their heads. That is the thing about spirituality…it’s invisible. But you know for sure you are a chosen one, even if nobody else believes it.”

          This behaviour pattern is very much visible in you. I am not joking or sarcastic. People who reached Osho, like your generation, many were struggling even to pass high school. Will you be honest enough to tell what is your academic qualification? High school, vocational training, graduation, post-graduation etc?

          These were the people who were laughing at the self-gratifying stories of Sugar Daddy telling his college or university years.

          I don´t say it has no beneficial effect, that it was all fake and superficial.

          You have a typical Sagittarius tendency to glorifying oneself.
          I am quite a pacifist kind of person but to me bravados and smugginess is like red scarf before the bull.

          Anyway, I am willing to go for psychological and neurological screening with any of you guys. Hopefully, Rajneesh Junior also joins as a torchbearer of Senior Sir.

          • satyadeva says:

            “People who reached Osho, like your generation, many were struggling even to pass high school.”

            This stands out as being blatantly untrue, Shantam. As a group, sannyasins were notably well educated, something that was remarked upon by many academic and media researchers:

            “The Rajneesh movement are people inspired by the Indian mystic Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh…It revealed a middle-class group of predominantly college-educated whites around the age of 30, the majority of whom were women.”
            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajneesh

            Btw, did you actually finish your degree course, or did you give up in favour of Sannyas (excited by the prospect of ‘free sex’, perhaps!)?

      • kavita says:

        Shantam, sorry, I kept a secret from you, actually only Lokesh knows that I met Bhagwan Osho in Bombay!

  14. Enlightenment:
    I will suggest to new and young readers on this site, if there are any, once Corona is over, please find some years and hang around Rajneesh Junior or other enlightened beings from the stable of Osho.

    You must sit for years around such people as Lokesh did, otherwise you will end up only with the romantic ideas about spirituality.

    And if you think no such guru allows years of habitat to backpackers, then do one thing, visit a few oldies and see if you are impressed by their wisdom.
    If yes, stay with them for a few years.

    At Least they owe to the human race to give back what they got.

  15. Thank God, Osho ended his career of public speaking with Zen.
    Zen where master was personally and intimately connected with a small group of people.
    I presume there were shades of lightening in those meetings.

    As I see the future trends, tabloid kind of mass circulating masteros have not much scope.
    If a master cannot create even few of his kind, it is too much noise, too little depth.

    PS:
    And about depth, I won´t dare to say, Arpana, you have no depth.
    Grass blades have their own depth.
    Osho´s sugar-coated talks surely release brain chemicals where Bonsai feel like Banyan Tree.

  16. That which can go on increasing with the time, has also the possibility to go on decreasing.
    I am saying about Light in the Enlightened Superstars!

    PS:
    I am not targeting alive or alive post-death guru of anyone, including my own.

    • satyadeva says:

      Really, Shantam? And how would you know this, please?

      And what exactly is the point of your statement if you think it doesn’t apply to anyone?

      • PS:
        It’s written as an irony, a sarcastic remark.

        And about my original statement I stand with it because in the cosmos even trillion times bigger solar systems also get dimmed with time.

        It is sheer human fantasy and wishful thinking to promote nonsense like Enlightenment and eternal music and uncorrupted peace and serenity.

        One needs to be a bit rational and open for questioning the fashionable beliefs.

        And this is most mature part of search when lust and greed of some precious present is not in your want list.

        • satyadeva says:

          Ah yes, of course…it’s that ‘irony thing’ again, that you cover up with such subtle sarcasm, Shantam. Oh well, 1-0 to you, Swamiji! (End of first half).

          Second halF:
          However, I’m afraid your performance has slipped after the half-time interval and you’ve made three glaring errors:

          First, equating the process of material entropy (“in the cosmos even trillion times bigger solar systems also get dimmed with time” – ie ‘out there’) with that of spiritual enlightenment – ie ‘in here’. Haven’t you heard that enlightenment is a never-ending process of ever-expanding inner illumination? No? Better enrol on one or two evening classes, Mr Iqbal!

          Second, who are you to decide what the nature of enlightenment is or is not? On what authority do you so confidently declare, “It is sheer human fantasy and wishful thinking to promote nonsense like Enlightenment and eternal music and uncorrupted peace and serenity.”?

          Third, who exactly are you criticising here? Osho? Some or all sannyasins? Contributors to Sannyas News? The New Age? The Christian Church? Traditional Indian religions? Yourself, perhaps? Such lack of clarity suggests you’re not properly au fait with contemporary training methods! Perhaps you need to check what you consume – it’s a vital part of the modern game, you know, can give you an extra second or two at the end of a tough match.

          Fourth, “lust and greed of some precious present”? Are you referring to the Eternal Now, Shree Shantam sir? By Jove, I’ll have to report you to Eckhart Tolle himself, who might well have to close down your stadium. But you’ve had to play away for decades anyway, haven’t you, since you transferred yourself to the Bundesliga (mein Gott – talk about “lust and greed”!).

          So, unfortunately, after such a breathtakingly slick start you’ve flattered to deceive: You’ve lost 4-1.

          Oh, make that 4-0 – VAR* has just ruled out that early goal of yours (for misleading the public)!

          Don’t worry too much though, relegation can be good for some players, forces them to look at themselves, to train harder – and smarter. Maybe George Bush could give you a hand with “the vision thing” as well. You never know your luck in an ever-dimming universe….

          *VAR – ‘video assisted referee’ that examines video replays of incidents in football to help right decisions to be made.

        • Klaus says:

          In the search of like-minded people there might be much more hope on this site:
          https://forum.culteducation.com/list.php?12

          There certainly are many traps in any of the groups and paths mentionned. Also, there is a lot of elucidation happening on a list of 93 pages.
          I recommend the researcher: B.Scofield.

    • Klaus says:

      Where is the end of learning? So many tomb…errrr, milestones….

    • Klaus says:

      @Shantam, 15 July, 2:45

      My understanding from my current (karmic) viewpoint of this process is that in meditation one passes through various gross and subtle experiences, layers, insights, perceptions – whatever one may call it.

      When one stops the process ‘in the middle’, i.e. because thoughts, new intentions, imaginations are coming and restlessness sets in, the persona, with all its not transformed feelings, emotions, opinions, imaginations, memories, limitations and especially its attachments, comes back.

      That is why therapy – the second wing – is helpful, or rather, necessary to resolve/transform the unconscious and “grow towards our potential.”

      ‘Nirvana’ does not sound glamorous: it is the cessation of mental activities: no imagination, no feeling, no smelling, no sensations, etc. Sounds like death.

      But, alas, unless it is indeed the last step, one returns to one’s life. With whatever consequences and happenings and events.
      That is the same for everyone, I may guess.

      I copied this quote from here:
      https://www.oshonews.com/2020/07/13/there-is-a-field/

      “Out beyond ideas
      of doing right or wrong
      there is a field
      I’ll meet you there”
      (Rumi)

      Keep on the ping-pong.

      Cheers.

      • Arpana says:

        @Klaus 17 July, 2020 at 9:25 am

        This will mean nothing to Shantam.

        He’s never gone into meditation in depth; indeed he has on a number of occasions dismissed meditation and psychotherapy and engaging with Osho discourses, in any format, as a waste of time.

        Interesting post, which could only be written from experience.

      • Klaus,
        As far as Meditation is concerned, I like to make holes in the fashionable version of meditation.

        Maybe you are not aware, various factions of Osho fanatics blame others with a single sentence, “He/she/they is/are not meditators.”

        These name-changed donkeys are like Talibans who think praying 5 times and teaching lesson to infidels is a holy act of grace.

        Meditation and therapy are not the one size-fits-all kind of thing.
        In Germany, my meditation pastime is going to church and sitting for some time with closed eyes. 15 minutes minimum, 3 hours max.

        If I feel some better change in me, then I go to drink coffee in Macdonald’s. One euro coffee for years cost 30 cents more. God Willing, today I will fix mobile alarm in the church for 45 minutes.

        Let me share one sincere suggestion:
        Western sannyasins will feel benefited by meditating in church innumerable times more than any expensive therapy.

        No one can grow wings by running away from the roots. Christianity is in the roots of you guys; by spitting on it you do injustice to yourself and your ancestors.

        Indians give fruitful advice as long as they don´t expect money. Once they see dollars, it is all Rajneeshpuram!

        • satyadeva says:

          Shantam, a Church might well be a very good place for silent meditation, as one can normally pretty well guarantee to be alone there. But have you read ‘The Mustard Seed’, Osho’s 21 talks on Jesus (’74/5)? That might radically enhance your Church meditations, if you’re open enough to reflect on and absorb what he says. You could read one a day, or one a week, for instance.

          You’d risk upsetting any falsely based sense of solace or comfort the Church experience provides though…But that wouldn’t concern a committed seeker such as yourself, would it?

          • SD, I have seen enough garbage around the man who wrote ‘The Mustard Seed’.

            Honestly speaking, Osho is not the last milestone, neither his talks are.

            • satyadeva says:

              Ok, that’s an honest answer, thanks for clarifying this.

              Am I right then to assume you have no further genuine interest in Osho or in what becomes of his movement, eg the fate of the Pune ashram?

              And that, bearing in mind your apparent rejection of all other teachers, you have embraced a sceptical ‘self-reliance’?

              Or do you find yourself returning to the ways of established religions, primarily the one you grew up with, as a Sikh?

              Or even, perhaps, that of ‘Brandi Love’? Now that’s a really traditional one, probably the oldest…Might suit you rather well, sir!

              • Satyadeva,
                Do critical self-analysis of your motives, thoughts, attachments and be daring to be weightless. When Corona is over, go away from your home and comfort zone and also without the donkeyload full of pop religious books. Then we can talk a bit deeper.

                It is my nature to answer sarcastically when I see someone taking higher moral ground on the basis of too much high self-esteem.

                God willing, soon I will have my own small ashram dedicated to unbranded spirituality. Those who think Osho is alive won´t get entry in that ashram, though it will a dedication to Him.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shantam, Arpana is spot on: You see your own failings in others – while unaware of them in your problematic self.

                  As for “someone taking higher moral ground on the basis of too much high self-esteem”, well, you yourself have immediately provided a most excellent, in fact a perfect example, in your final paragraph!

                  And take a look at your first paragraph: try applying such processes to yourself – for a change!

                  The breathtaking extent of your delusion is not only annoying but also extremely amusing – a veritable work of art, demonstrating the supreme capacity of the mind to prevent itself from seeing the truth about itself.

                  Now why do you think it would bother to do that?

        • Arpana says:

          ”No one can grow wings by running away from the roots. Christianity is in the roots of you guys; by spitting on it you do injustice to yourself and your ancestors.”

          I agree with this, Shantam.

          Western sannyassins need to own our roots in Christianity, anti-Christianity.

          https://youtu.be/LDA7YMKVJZo

          • Arpana says:

            Shantam,

            Your sitting around in Christian churches is just one more of the techniques you use to avoid facing the truth about yourself.

            Your misery isn’t caused by western sannyasins failing to live according to your diktats.
            Your misery is caused by your expectation that they should.

            • As it is said, familiarity breeds contempt; if we be honest, I don´t like you, you don´t like me. Why to waste time?

              P.S:
              I don´t like the Osho Sect/Cult. For you, all those glitters may be gold; I have seen the nickel shining out.

              • Arpana says:

                Shantam,

                You despise yourself, and see everything that is contemptible, in your terms, about yourself, in others.

                All the negative adjectives you spray around like a dog pissing on a lampost are a description of you.

        • Klaus says:

          @Shantam, 17 July, 1:42

          Thanks for responding.

          I have neither radical nor talibanese words for you. I am not blaming anyone or spitting on something, rather, I embrace a lot of things. What I like is to differentiate, discern, see the details.

          Reading your comment at first I feel a little overwhelmed due to the many things going on in it. Then I can settle down with it.

          Questions:
          When you are in the church, what do you do?
          Do you say prayers? Mantras? Express wishes? Call for the priest? (?)
          When you sit calmly what do you perceive?
          (i.e. where is the attention going? Thoughts? Full body sensations of sitting/ touching on the bench? Temperature on your skin? Breathing in your belly? Possibly sensing/feeling the expanse of the room around you?
          Is your attention sharp, i.e. you catch the beginning/the arising, the middle or the end of such sensations/observations? How long does it stay?
          Are there thoughts/pictures/plans/physical pains for minutes?).
          Can you describe/acknowledge details to yourself (no need to do so publicly..)?

          There, quality is hiding, imo: you might have a 360 degrees roundabout perception; then there is no limitation to this or that concept, this or that person’s image.

          Probably you are more German than I have ever been (in this plus any other life)! Or I am more Indian/Asian than you (incl. this and other lives)?

          ‘German’ is a limitation to birth/biography/body/language: from an unlimited mind there is no knowing of “my” ancestors: they might be on planet ‘X16S5T361′.

          Question:
          Do you feel you “did injustice to your ancestors”?

          As my meditation – some or most of the time – tends to be one big hole with occasional objects presenting themselves in it: please make more holes into it. Chanting, singing, visualizing. Okeydokey.

          Inshallah you will find the opportunity to visit a serene abbey in Italy:
          The Abbazia di Fossanova near Priverno
          https://www.artwave.it/architettura/abbazia-fossanova-romanico-gotico/
          It is the place where Thomas of Aquin was spending time in retreat in a cell.

          Our stories, connections and concoctions are a wonder to me: Germans learning contentless meditation in Myanmar and marrying in Bangladesh; original Indians in Germany recommending Christianity – all this via Sannyanews.

          Wish you well. Anywhere. Anytime.

          The Petersens: ‘All My Tears Be Washed Away’:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9munH2Gvno

  17. kavita says:

    One needs to be a bit rational and open for questioning the fashionable beliefs, except Shantam, as he is totally fashion-free believer & the only bit-rational disciple of his master!

  18. kavita says:

    No, dear, I have an Arts degree in Anthropology.

  19. Arpana says:

    I knew you had an interesting degree, Kavita.

    I was going to do Anthropology for a first degree, but went for Psychology instead.

  20. Arpana says:

    I’m reading a book by Christopher Vogler, ‘The Writer’s Journey’. Here is a synopsis:

    ‘The Writer’s Journey: Mythic Structure For Writers’ is a popular screenwriting textbook by writer Christopher Vogler, focusing on the theory that most stories can be boiled down to a series of narrative structures and character archetypes, described through mythological allegory. Vogler based this work upon the writings of mythologist Joseph Campbell, particularly ‘The Hero with a Thousand Faces’, and holds that all successful films innately adhere to its principles.

    In the book he lists a series of ”Archetypes”, a number of which, from my point of view, apply to Osho. Here is the list:

    Hero: someone who is willing to sacrifice his own needs on behalf of others.
    Mentor: all the characters who teach and protect heroes and give them gifts.
    Threshold Guardian: a menacing face to the hero, but if understood, they can be overcome.
    Herald: a force that brings a new challenge to the hero.
    Shapeshifter: characters who change constantly from the hero’s point of view.
    Shadow: character who represents the energy of the dark side.
    Ally: someone who travels with the hero through the journey, serving a variety of functions.
    Trickster: embodies the energies of mischief and desire for change.

    However, the reason I am posting this is because the Ally role stood out for me, and certainly from my point of view, applies so strongly to Osho – and what an Ally.

  21. Lokesh says:

    Osho wearing the mantle of “Hero: someone who is willing to sacrifice his own needs on behalf of others”, does not ring true, at least not entirely.

    Yes, I can recall times when Osho did sacrifice his own needs on behalf of others. For instance, during the good old days on celebration days, he would sit in the heat giving darshan to sometimes hysterical people who were smelling and sweating like pigs.

    Yes, sometimes he satisfied his own cravings with little regard of costs and human labour. A fleet of Rollers, watches that emptied the commune’s coffers. It wasn’t his money that paid for that crap. It was the commune’s.

    I don’t dwell on such matters. In retrospect it was all a crazy play.

    There was a slogan in Poona One: ‘Don’t be a hero. Be a zero.’
    I suppose the most heroic deeds performed by Osho had to do with standing up, or rather sitting down, and telling the truth. That requires a lot of courage.

    Osho frownned on putting people up on pedestals, why put him up on one?

    • Arpana says:

      You’re interpreting me as putting him on a pedestal:

      He occupies a unique position in my life, unlike anyone else ever has.

      No understanding without language. No understanding because of it.

      Seems to me he played with archetypes. Used the notion. Emperor. Hero. Mentor. Shapeshifter. Most satisfying to me at this time: ally.

      He has never made me feel important in a good or bad way. Up until Sannyas I made my mark wherever I went and I haven’t in the Sannyas world; despite that, I’ve stuck around.

      I had two hundred people at my thirtieth birthday party, only one of them will be at my funeral.

      • Arpana says:

        I don’t mean the archetype notion literally. These concepts are labels, reference points.
        I regularly hear, see, perceive, and have nothing to say.
        I am regularly aware of an absence of verbalising about that which I would once have had a lot to say.

      • Lokesh says:

        “You’re interpreting me as putting him on a pedestal”:
        Really? That’s news to me. How can you be certain your interpretation is correct? My question was not directed towards anyone in particular. I just asked why put Osho on a pedestal, because, personally speaking, I have no reason to do that.

        Putting someone on a pedestal involves a certain amount of expectation. I actually learned this for the first time indirectly from Osho, who gave a close friend a hard time for putting his girlfriend up on a pedestal, because she was suffering due to being unable to live up to my friend’s high expectations.

        • Arpana says:

          I can’t decide if I had no expectations of him, so I’ve never been disappointed by him; or somehow he managed to fulfil all my expectations, and has never stopped doing so, so I’ve never been disappointed.

          Lokesh said ‘Putting someone on a pedestal requires a certain amount of expectation. ” which gave me the impression you were saying you had no expectations of him

          If that is the case why are you always so judgemental towards Osho about what happened at the ranch? That’s about your expectations not being fulfilled. Why are you so condemning of the Nitrous Oxide use if you have no expectations of Osho?

        • satchit says:

          It’s not a question of putting Osho on a pedestal, Lokesh.

          If he would have been on the same level of consciousness as you, you would have never stayed there.

  22. Lokesh says:

    Arpana enquires, “Why are you so condemning of the Nitrous Oxide use if you have no expectations of Osho?”
    It is more to do with the nitrous oxide than anything to do with Osho. Nitrous gives a fleeting high and in the long term can cause neurological damage. Osho got hooked on a daft drug, because it took him away from physical discomfort…I think he paid a high price for that pain relief. Osho was generally anti-drug and behind the scenes he was having a gas and a good laugh about it. Ultimately, whatever floats your boat.

    • When passengers in a plane take some gas,journey may become easy and smooth; when pilot takes the same, it is the fate of missing Malaysian Airlines jet or Neo-Sannyas.

      Fanatics followers will never believe their movement has gone dry. Anyway, when rivers and lakes get dry, small wells still keep some water for frogs to float.

      Is there a need to tell, who i think is a frog on this site?

      • Arpana says:

        Shantam said.

        ”Fanatics followers will never believe their movement has gone dry.”

        No, Shantam. You’ve gone dry. Your life has gone dry and your connection to sannyas and Osho has gone dry.

    • Arpana says:

      @Lokesh, 18 July, 2020 at 8:40 pm

      So Osho failed to live up to your expectation then.
      No way round it. It’s in your answer and initial statement.

      • Lokesh says:

        If I had any expectations about Osho they would have been something along the lines of expect the unexpected.

        To be honest, I find the idea of having expectations about Osho absurd. Just can’t relate to the idea.

        • Arpana says:

          @Lokesh. 19 July, 2020 at 12:03 am

          Can’t believe I’m about to write this but you know what, Lokesh. I thought better of you. This is the sort of slippery copout crap we’ve come to expect from Shantam.

          • Lokesh says:

            Expect the unexpected.
            Having met Shre Shrek Shantam I can testify that he is a gentle and kind man, who is also a caring father to a charming and intelligent son.

            • Arpana says:

              @Lokesh. 19 July, 2020 at 12:03 pm

              You’ve done it again.

            • satchit says:

              “Expect the unexpected” is sannyas parroting.

              You can only expect the known,
              not the unknown.

              The unexpected happens.

              • satyadeva says:

                Yes, but one can still “expect the unknown” without having any specific idea what that might consist of, in the sense of remaining aware that unanticipated ‘surprises’, pleasant or otherwise, are always possibilities.

                • Arpana says:

                  @satyadeva. 20 July, 2020 at 9:50 am
                  That’s an interesting remark, because really you are only talking about, certainly if a city dweller, ”streetwise”.

                • satchit says:

                  If I expect something, known or unknown, then I have already a thought in my mind:
                  the thought of expectation.

                  Then I am not a no-mind, who is ready for surprises.

                • satyadeva says:

                  But let’s be realistic, Satchit, it’s perhaps uncommon, I don’t know, but possible to live aware that ‘anything could happen’ without necessarily expecting anything in particular.

                  Surely ‘no-mind’ doesn’t preclude such awareness, which is only what might be termed the ‘common sense wisdom’ of experience. Your version of ‘no mind’ seems more like that of an innocent child who, though ‘in the moment’ and wonderfully spontaneous, simply lacks enough life experience to be wise.

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, anything could happen each moment- the expected and the unexpected.

                  For the mind, everything is known and old.

                  For the innocent no-mind each moment is new and fresh.

                  No, the child has had enough life experience.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Satchit, perhaps we’re speaking of different things here: I’m focusing on a maybe relatively rare but, I think, perfectly accessible aspect of non-enlightened consciousness, which, if taken on board, might be transformative. You’re commenting on something beyond that. As for the child, much depends on his/her age.

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, different perspectives….

                • satchit says:

                  Btw, re”child”, SD.

                  Do you remember the story of transformation from the camel to the lion to the innocent child?

                • satyadeva says:

                  No, I don’t recall that, Satchit.

                • Arpana says:

                  @satchit 21 July, 2020 at 6:51 am

                  “Present: 10 of Clouds: Rebirth :
                  This card depicts the evolution of consciousness as it is described by Friedrich Nietzsche in his book, ‘Thus Spake Zarathustra’. He speaks of the three levels of Camel, Lion and Child. The camel is sleepy, dull, self-satisfied. He lives in delusion, thinking he’s a mountain peak, but really he is so concerned with others’ opinions that he hardly has any energy of his own.

                  Emerging from the camel is the lion. When we realize we’ve been missing life, we start saying no to the demands of others. We move out of the crowd, alone and proud, roaring our truth.
                  But this is not the end.

                  Finally, the child emerges, neither acquiescent nor rebellious, but innocent and spontaneous and true to his own being. Whatever the space you’re in right now – sleepy and depressed, or roaring and rebellious – be aware that it will evolve into something new if you allow it. It is a time of growth and change.”

              • Lokesh says:

                Oscar never heard of sannyas….

                • Arpana says:

                  @ Lokesh. 20 July, 2020 at 12:39 pm:

                  Authority bias is the tendency to attribute greater accuracy to the opinion of an authority figure (unrelated to its content) and be more influenced by that opinion. This concept is considered one of the so-called social cognitive biases or collective cognitive biases.

                • Lokesh says:

                  ♠Ehm…………
                  Think for yourself and question authority. (Timothy Leary)

                • Arpana says:

                  @ Lokesh. 20 July, 2020 at 4:18 pm
                  Authority bias is the tendency to attribute greater accuracy to the opinion of an authority figure (unrelated to its content) and be more influenced by that opinion. This concept is considered one of the so-called social cognitive biases or collective cognitive biases.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Well, I have made a few bad decisions in my life, so now I can blame it on social cognitive biases.

                  Phew, that’s a relief, as up until now I blamed myself.

                • Arpana says:

                  @Lokesh. 20 July, 2020 at 9:03 pm

                  Have you ever practised a martial art?

                • Lokesh says:

                  Arpana, I recently enquired at my local gym about aikido classes. I did not follow through. That’s the closest I have come to martial arts. Pity really because it’s a good thing to have under your black belt.

                  I’m a big guy and I suppose I look like not someone to pick a fight with, although I really do not like physical violence. If I have to I know how defend myself…that’s enough for me, althogh martial arts run much deeper than that.

                  The locals on Ibiza are hot on karate and judo. Many of the kids are into it, although my grandson prefers football and surfing.

                • Arpana says:

                  @Lokesh. 20 July, 2020 at 9:03 pm

                  No such thing as a bad decision, as long as I learned, if nothing else, to not do it again; or do it differently and better.

                  Lot of things I once labelled as ”bad decisions” just appear part of the balancing act of getting on with living, and not knowing any better at the time; aka as learning the hard way.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Arpana, I was joking.
                  Remember, everyone exhibits cognitive bias. It might be easier to spot in others, but it is important to know that it is something that also affects your thinking.

                • Arpana says:

                  @Lokesh. 21 July, 2020 at 8:33 am

                  The reason I am so aware of confirmation bias at the moment is because of becoming aware of it in myself.

                  I wasn’t being particularly serious calling you out.

                  In Shantam’s case he lives in it.

              • Arpana says:

                @Satchit.

                No-mind doesn’t mean never had a mind.
                That’s a different phenomenon.

                • satchit says:

                  @ Arps

                  We all have a mind.

                  The story is still about transforming the mud.

                  P.S.
                  Bought me a water pistol today.

                • Arpana says:

                  @Satchit.
                  Re water pistol: Jolly good.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Satchit reveals the astounding discovery, ‘We all have a mind.’
                  One can perhaps imagine that this shocking revelation comes as a result of taking a massive amount of powerful psychotropic drugs and floating in a sensory depravation tank, while watching Mickey Mouse cartoons on an iPod for 24 hours.

                  A true psychonaut of the deepest and most remote of the inner realms.

                  MOD:
                  Lokesh, do you actually mean “depravation”, ie where one may indulge in sensory depravity? (If so, you can not be serious, surely?!). Or ‘deprivation’, deprived of the senses?
                  Just doing my job….

      • satchit says:

        Yes, Lokesh’s expectation was that Osho should have asked him for advice.
        Because he is the drug expert.

  23. Laws of nature are mysterious, who knows in the final score, Captain Sir Tom Moore proves Enlightened in the world of cosmic wisdom rather than snowflakes professional light bulbs.

    If someone knows not Captain Tom (s)he can go on repeating, “Who is Captain Tom?”

  24. As I see, Osho was quite blunt about telling truth about others, The Others.
    It was Pope, it was Reagan, it was Sheela.

    He, his doctor, his financer were always above the board.

  25. Klaus says:

    With regard to the ‘East/ West’ differential I recommend the works of Huston Smith, professor of religious science:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huston_Smith

    He participated himself in the experiments of Timothy Leary. Practised Hindu-style meditation and yoga and a lot else.

    Huston Smith: ‘Psychology of Religious Experience – Thinking Allowed’ DVD w/ Jeffrey Mishlove

    Interesting man. Generously open-minded. In my view.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_o6bDixWKA

  26. Arpana says:

    @Klaus.19 July, 2020 at 8:41 pm.

    I sometimes become aware of an absence of something, somethings, which have been varying degrees of intrusive, present; an apparent part of what I probably thought of as me, but are now not around, are now absences, which I don’t miss.

    An absence of making problems out of ?!!!!???***

  27. kavita says:

    Shall watch ‘Master of None’ on Netflix!

  28. First black Acharya is on the way.
    Kanye West is getting revelations; in sannyas lingo, pre-enlightenment pangs.
    Behind every genius there is also an element of madness.
    Not for presidentship, but otherwise man is trustworthy.

  29. Arpana says:

    @Lokesh

    Occurs to me confirmation bias is behind the sense of identity people develop, that meditation enables seeing through.

  30. “meditation enables seeing through….”

    Yes, seeing through the others!
    Does one see one’s own biased mind?

  31. kavita says:

    Yes, Klaus, globally, looks like all parents have their bit of struggles.

    Somehow I got to have some quality time with each of them at different stages of my life.

    Somehow I think & feel now, even though I have no experience in both, parenthood is probably a difficult task, more than Masterhood!

    • Klaus says:

      A lot of before unknown feelings, emotions, tendencies get revealed by the young ones…so they are great helpers – even allies ::)) in finding out about love. Yesterday, we walked in the city centre, the young one in her unicorn pyjamas and princess crown! Chaaarrmingggg.

      This is our young one at age 3-4….

      • kavita says:

        Very expressive children are!

        • Arpana says:

          @kavita. 22 July, 2020 at 5:10pm.

          Toddlers exist to teach adults the single octave in control emotional range they thought they had, is actually nearer twenty octaves, and the little buggers can play any note they want, across that not truly recognised until they set out to teach you, twenty octave emotional range, in the space of about ten seconds; and then do it again, and again and again; then slam the lid shut on your fingers and approach you for a cuddle, which they will get, which it never crosses their as yet not fully formed minds, they are not entitled to.

          • kavita says:

            Arps, how about this?

            Masters exist to teach disciples the no-octave in control emotional range they thought they never had, is actually nearer infinite octaves, and the buggers can play any note they want, across that not truly recognised until they set out to teach you, no-octave emotional range, in the space of about eleven to twelve seconds; and then do it again, and again and again; then slam the lid open on your fingers and leave you free, which they will get, which had never crossed their as yet not fully formed no-minds, they are entitled to! 

  32. satchit says:

    Certainly, if one reads Shantam’s article above and one wants to be suspicious, one could ask: Why enlightenment on the 21st of March? Why at the beginning of spring? Is it poetry or is it real?

  33. Lokesh says:

    This thing called enlightenment can affect people in mysterious ways.

    • kavita says:

      Lokie, how wonderful, you seem to have transparent thoughts!

      • Lokesh says:

        Yes, Kavita, hair also. Ahhh…those were the days, my friend.

        • kavita says:

          :) Guess best is to enjoy this now moment, which we all probably do anyway!

        • Lokesh, can you shed some light why Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh changed his winning strategy where you were part of?

          I think that Pune One thing has the capacity to enthral people of this time also.

          • satchit says:

            But you have no experience of Pune One, is it not Shantam?

            When did you take sannyas?
            Was Osho still alive then?

            • Satchit,
              Here is my sannyas resume:
              First connection with Bhagwan´s book in Oct. 1983.
              Neo-Sannyas Initiation October 1984.
              First glimpse of Master: Delhi Airport, when he came from America, Nov. 1985.
              First live Darshan/Satsang: 11 December 1985, Manali.
              First live full discourse: August 1986
              And around 50-60% time in work meditation at Osho Commune, Pune from 4th January 1987 till middle of 2007.

              • satchit says:

                Ok, Shantam.

                So you know Pune One only from hearsay.

                • Satchit, there is no need to be over-smart like a Barrister. In my thousands of posts at this site is there a single sentence where I have mentioned about my first-hand experience of Pune One?

                  20 years in Pune 2 are enough to see working style of master in His final years and the thugs, liars, cheaters kind of generals grown under His leadership.

                  20 years are enough time to see all that glitters are not gold.
                  20 years of being at mystical ground zero are worth of 20 tons of books even more.

                  Naturally, my report creates indigestion in Arpana kind of bookworms. This gentleman is past life Jihadi, who believes Mohammad is a last prophet and every word of Koran is dictated by Allah…

                  And let me know, Satchit, your sannyas biography.

                • satchit says:

                  Wow, 20 years in Pune 2!
                  Did it make you happy, Shantam?

                  If not, you wasted your time. You should have done something else to find happiness.

                  Only you are responsible for yourself as I am responsible for myself.

                  Sannyas biography?
                  I took sannyas 1978 in Pune.

          • Lokesh says:

            Shantam enquires, “Can you shed some light why Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh changed his winning strategy where you were part of?”

            I do not think Osho had a strategy as such. Living in the present requires no strategic planning. When it came to applying a method or plan chosen to bring about a desired future, such as achievement of a goal or solution to a problem Osho left that to general managers, like Laxmi and later, Sheela.

            From the time that I spent around Osho I had no impressions of him applying anything remotely resembling a strategy. Yes, once in a while he became a wee bit involved with business ideas from what I gather, but in those instances I believe he was just having a bit of fun with the leela.

            Osho had a very playful side to his personality that ranged from childlike to cosmic trickster. I once fell for his playful side, got a bit carried away with myself and received a sharp reminder that his presence was that of the closest I have come to encountering a physical manifestation of the divine.

            • Thanks, Lokesh for writing the best and sensible post of the day at sannyasnews.

              I hope someday level of discussion and disagreements will be of that level, where one admires the intelligence of the opponent too.

              • Arpana says:

                Madhu said:

                ”Somebody (it was Wittgenstein wasn´t it?) said: “What you
                don´t really know you
                shouldn´t speak of. Not that bad of a suggestion to take it to Heart´s Intelligence, isn´t it?”

                Discussion both facilitates learning and inhibits it.

                No understanding because of language. No understanding without it.

                • Well – Arpana – guess I wanted to make a point that responding to a situation is not the same as strategic-thinking.

                  Responding is an ART in itself and it can take a lifetime (or better said, many of those) to get free of the past of strategic thinking manners.

                  I´m reminded of the Archery story we once heard, where the disciple had to even unlearn for a long, long time what a bow is all about before he was declared to be a Master Archer.

                  You, Arpana, could probably find the story (quote) more easily than me.

                  It´s a really, really good one and up to this moment the essence of such is still alive as Truth, deep inside my heart.

                  And I bow down to THAT.

                  Madhu

                • Arpana says:

                  @Madhu.
                  Seems to me responding in the the moment is not at odds with a long-term broad brush game plan or strategy. Seems to me responding in the moment is not at odds with an ambitious project which would require some degree of planning.

            • Arpana says:

              The story goes, Osho spent a day or so pondering about having the mala and red clothes worn by everyone.

              That sounds like strategic thinking to me, part of a broad brush game plan maybe?

              • satchit says:

                Yes, strategic thinking was already to create this Master-disciple-game to help people.

                It was not enough for him to remain a Professor of Philosophy.

                Strategic thinking was also to take this old Sannyas idea and put the shape of ‘Neo’ on it.

                • About strategy and planning, let me share one small anecdote heard recently.

                  During the early years of public speaking, Shri Rajneesh used to put fliers on every chair in the town hall lectures, “Please contribute as little as 25 Paisa or 50 Paisa by leaving them on chair after the talk.”

                  The friend who told me this story mentioned, eye witness account, “Many people were not donating even this much.”

                  In a way, it was long and arduous journey for the master to follow his inner calling and start with public talks as an Acharya.

                  Sikhs gave him always platform in their temples and Osho as a world teacher reciprocated by appreciating, “Sikhs are the bravest and the salt of India.”

                  One thing, though, happened circumstantially, Osho´s connection with the western seeker. That was not planned; this I am saying for the reason, Osho improved his English skills only after coming in contact with foreigners.

                • Arpana says:

                  @satchit. 26 July, 2020 at 8:20 am.

                  Yes!

                  The active encouragement of those who sat in front of him, and then in discourses, to meditate and participate in psychotherapy groups, strikes me as a pretty strategic approach. In my opinion, he most definitely had an underlying game plan, which we can only use conjecture to talk about, although conscious conjecture is very different to unconscious surmise and conjecture.

                • It leads to an impasse (´Sackgasse´) Satchit & Arpana too – in my view to get lost in your very own “strategic” thinking, interpreting the course of events around Osho and commune affairs & decisions happening. Still affected by an authoritarian bias re what is in reality a most complex and inter-relational happening.
                  Always, btw, always…

                  Sometimes – by Grace – I´d say, happening smoothly (or apparently smoothly), sometimes going down the drain (or apparently going down the drain).

                  We´ve been invited to leave any authoritarian ´thinking´ as to our best capacities to clean our own hidden mental closet patterns. Some managed better than others and grew up to more maturity eg Lokesh by his contribution (25 July at 10.35 pm) and, I´d say, Kavita, in her own stance re this topic in a spared sybillinc ways which for me had some flavour of a kind of relief.

                  Somebody (it was Wittgenstein, wasn´t it?) said: “What you don´t really know you shouldn´t speak of.” Not that bad a suggestion to take it to Heart´s Intelligence, isn´t it?

                  Just now, we all are living in a global and precarious time of a big challenge of a pandemic happening worldwide and no wonder, I guess, that all kinds of authoritarian-based reactions – based on fear – are coming up.

                  Individually and collectively, and it seems no area is momentarily spared the seductive moments to go for a regression of humankind into dark, dark times we’ve happily, I´d say, surpassed already.

                  Or do we – very much unfortunately – need another Totalitarian phase (on a sheer survival-strategy – mental, psychological and spititual level)?

                  It´s at stake, isn´t it?

                  Madhu

                  P.S:
                  Still don´t know about the IT-TEC of our communication here…but giving it a(nother try).

                • satchit says:

                  @ Arps

                  An ingenious strategy was that he put his picture on the mala. (Don’t know if somebody has done this before).

                  So people in the West became curious: “Who is this guy?” And sooner or later they were caught.

                  If you ask me, I say it was all planned. The growth of the movement.

                • satyadeva says:

                  He must have realised what he had to offer, the sort of capacity he was blessed with, and I recall what he’s reported to have said while watching the film, ‘Woodstock’: “These are my people!”

                  (More later, I’ve suddenly lost what I’d written – bloody cable got loose!).

                • Arpana says:

                  @ satchit. 27 July, 2020 at 2:17 pm

                  I agree. A long-term project, which would have implications, long past his demise.

              • Arpana says:

                “One thing, though, happened circumstantially, Osho´s connection with the western seeker. That was not planned.”

                Provide some evidence to back this up, Shantam.

                This is pure conjecture, and confirmation bias; something else you’ve invented because it supports your egotism and over-inflated sense of importance, not unlike your claim that no westerner has ever handled a potato.

              • Arpana says:

                @Madhu. who said:
                ‘Satchit & Arpana too – in my view to get lost in your very own “strategic” thinking, interpreting the course of events around Osho and commune affairs & decisions happening.”

                If I understand you correctly, Madhu, you are misinterpreting, certainly what I’ve said, throwing in words like “authoritarian”.

                I don’t feel at all dogmatic about my viewpoint. I’m not looking for or expect unconditional agreement. Much closer to hypothesis than anything else.

                At the end of the exchange I admitted what I was saying was conjecture and surmise.

                I function from a “game plan”, a game plan that provides a nice balance between restriction and spontaneity. Game plan is just another word for structure. Nothing works without structure, but too much of it is horribly inhibiting and not enough of it leads to energies being dissipated, or to coin a British expression “pissing in the wind.”

            • Arpana says:

              Are you seriously suggesting, Lokesh, the establishment of an organisation in Poona One wasn’t strategic, wasn’t planning, future-oriented?

              • Arpana says:

                Osho said in Darshan to a ma/swami, when talking about spontaneity, you have to plan ahead when you need to get a seat on a plane; which fits with his encouragement to learn to go between head and heart. Head for pre-planning, heart for spontaneity. Spontaneity and order.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, Arps, he’d have been a bloody fool if he’d said you don’t need to plan ahead and take appropriate action! Come on, what’s so special about that? You ‘re making it sound as if he was talking to a bunch of primary school kids.

              • Arpana says:

                @SD,
                Well, he said it, so he thought he neeeded to. I’ll see if I can find the passage.

                I didn’t mean it that seriously, you know. I was just making a broad point. It’s just part of a broad point.

  34. Some Master comes & enlightenment happens like Corona; just sitting around him, that will be real Energy Darshan!

    One grass can turn the whole earth green. Who knows, Coronavirus is giving the hint, some spiritual master will come with this kind of super-powerful atomic energy. After all, the vast cosmos is treating earth as its experimental lab or the final market.

    New Oshos are always revised and modified versions of the previous ones.

  35. Just around midnight…

    There is this story I´d like to share with special credit re Shantam Prem´s infectious capacities to ‘stir pots in the plots´and his strong and enduring reminders to grow some resilience re infectious attacks of all kinds…

    The story, found in some corner of the big www ´brain’, goes like this:

    “Bayazid, a Sufi Mystic, has written in his autobiography: ´When I was young, I thought and I spoke to God and in all my prayers this was the basis:
    “Give me energy, so that I can change the whole world.”
    Everybody looked wrong to me. I was a revolutionary and I wanted to change the face of the earth.´
    When I became a little more mature, I started praying:
    “This seems to be too much, Life is going out of my hands – almost half of my Life is gone and I didn´t change a single person and the whole world is too much. And who am I to change them?”

    Then I realized that if I can change myself, that will be enough. So I prayed to God: “At least I would like to change myself.”

    God replied:
    “Now there is no time left. You should have asked that in the very beginning. Then there was a possibility.”

    By Grace – I´d say – we have been able to be sitting in the Presence of Great storytellers.

    Just like This.

    Madhu

  36. Arpana says:

    Always appeared to me Osho’s yes-saying, active encouragement of behaviour first generation Western Sannyasins had been made to suppress in a generally authoritarian manner by teachers and parents, was part of his broad game plan.

    Those first generation Sannyasins, who came from an essentially Christian background, parented and taught by extremely conservative men and women who had lived through the Second World War, who had been conditioned to puritanical Christian values, the suppression of spontaneity.

    That played a huge part, guaranteed “the shit would hit the fan” eventually, as occurred in Oregon, and he actually was saying yes to this, and went into silence to encourage, broadly speaking, what happened, actively encouraging the breaking free from the conditioning of the authoritarian parents and teachers. (But not the details, as in you can‘t make an omelette without breaking eggs).

    An underlying theme of that game plan is to bring a balance between order and chaos, spontaneity and restriction, and that most of us were coming from a very structured and not enough spontaneity place, although I would add there were obviously people around who needed to be a damn sight less spontaneous, a lot more restricted, but I certainly came from the need to loosen up and find a balance between spontaneity and order.

  37. kavita says:

    Sunglasses for the Enlightened!

  38. Lokesh says:

    “Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” (Sun Tzu)

    • Arpana says:

      “Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.” (Sun Tzu)

      This entirely fits my view that often we have to make a choice and decide what is the least bad of available options; so currently I am dealing with a situation, and the least bad available option at this time seems to me to do nothing, to wait.

  39. One short Story:
    Once a professor of Finance who was famous for his text books, opened a bank. The idea of bank descended upon him while meditating. It was thought thoughts of professor were transcribed from the powers unknown to human eyes. Green Bank was the name because it will invest in clean, environmentally friendly projects. Bank became hugely popular among the young and leftists and spiritual-minded people.

    After the demise of its founder, due to eternal conflict of interests and management, bank went into administration.
    Interestingly, there was no panic among the customers and the staff.

    When govt. appointed a commission to check the matter, one surprising fact was found: 99% have the opinion, “Bank´s health is stable. The last founder is checking our resolve. It´s his device.”

  40. kavita says:

    Few years ago, I shared this on SN. A Poona One sannyasin friend had told me that Osho, during his travelling days, after he stopped working as a Professor, was quite vocally against any religious institutionalisation; so it seems it was a spontaneous decision to start giving sannyas but he called it neo-sannyas.

    Arps, I somehow think & feel, strategy in this case is not the correct word; yes, spontaneous decision is relatable in this context.

    His maybe strategy in terms of having an institutionless-institution is more appropriate.

    • Arpana says:

      @ Kavita

      I prefer the notion he had a broad-based game plan, a vision; and he then within that framework made spontaneous decisions, which at the time seemed to him the most effective available, to further his vision.

      “It is something very significant to remember, that every discipline is a device given by a living master. Every precept is a certain strategy given by a living master.”
      (Osho, ‘Bodhidharma: The Greatest Zen Master’, Chapter 12)

      “A disciple was given the koan of one hand clapping. He heard the sound of the wind passing through the pine trees, and he thought, “Perhaps this is the sound of one hand clapping.” He rushed to give the answer to the master, but before he could even open his mouth he was beaten.
      He said, “This is too much! I have not said anything.”
      The master said, “It does not matter whether you have said anything or not – you were going to say something.”
      The student said, “But at least you should have heard it first…”
      The master said, “It does not matter, whatever you say is going to be wrong. Just go and meditate!”
      When disciples become accustomed, they don’t rush to the master with answers. They know there is no answer. Knowing that there is no answer, mind gives up. And the whole strategy is very subtle, to put the mind aside; tired, exhausted, it has no desire to function anymore.”
      (Osho, ‘The Buddha: The Emptiness of the Heart’, Chapter 6)

  41. Creating a cult city in America – neither spontaneous nor strategic, simply stupid.
    Blind Followers are to blame for bringing their Indian guru into a US trap.
    Really stupid friends are worse than wise enemies.

    P.S:
    I cannot tell to the followers of Saddam Hussein, bravery becomes stupidity when horse challenges a tiger.

  42. kavita says:

    ”When disciples become accustomed, they don’t rush to the master with answers. They know there is no answer. Knowing that there is no answer, mind gives up. And the whole strategy is very subtle, to put the mind aside; tired, exhausted, it has no desire to function anymore.” -

    Ok, Arps, I am very well aware of this (subtle) strategic energy, so & also but I am still apprehensive to use the word ‘strategy’!

    • Arpana says:

      @Kavita
      I realise that, Kavita, but don’t really get why.
      It’s just a practical thing. Bad people poison everything they touch.
      Osho is the opposite.

    • satchit says:

      I think ‘strategy’ sounds not so nice because one usually thinks it belongs to the ego.

      How can a Master who is egoless have a strategy, says the mind?

      But who knows? I remember him saying, only a total ego is egoless.

      • Arpana says:

        “Whenever a conscious man gives you a certain strategy, a certain idea to help you, you change it according to your mind, and rather than using it as a help it becomes a harmful thing for you. You are given nectar by the buddhas; by the time it reaches you it becomes poison.

        Osho
        ‘The Dhammapada: The Way of the Buddha’, Vol. 8
        Chapter 8
        Chapter title: ‘Out of Chaos Stars Are Born’

        “Truth cannot be said, so whatever can be said is going to be a beautiful lie – beautiful because it can lead towards truth. So I make a demarcation between lies: beautiful lies and ugly lies. Ugly lies are those which take you away from truth, and beautiful lies are those which take you close towards truth. But as far as their quality is concerned, both are lies. But those beautiful lies work; hence in some way they hold the flavour of truth.”

        Osho
        ‘Beyond Psychology’
        Chapter 43
        Chapter title: ‘Logic Should Serve Love’

  43. kavita says:

    “But who knows? I remember him saying, only a total ego is egoless.”

    Yes, that’s what I am saying, he can afford to say that.

  44. Lokesh says:

    Only a total ego is egoless.
    What? Does that mean Donald Trump is egoless?

    Only a total ego is egoless.
    That sounds to me like total nonsense.

  45. Hi Friends,

    I wish to share my Saturday´s SMILE, coming up naturally, when following the Life-Story of a David Bohm in a doc-film by chance.
    David, who, as a physicist, called by Albert Einstein ´his “spiritual son” =, by the Dalai Lama, His “science guru”, and by Krishnamurti “a good friend to have 25 years of exchange and meetings with.”
    One of the rare Beautiful Minds of the so-called West following the magnetic pull to Eastern Culture: became a universal citizen.

    Inevitably, I´d say. His research about what He called a Quantum Potential is a mystical domain (and it’s there where most of the scientists fail as they are missing humbleness hence are not getting access (as humans) to the wisdom of being a participant instead of a mere fractioned observer of the Leela
    life/reality is.

    I dearly recommend the vid: https://youtu.be/XDpurdHKpb8
    Came up in the web of ‘Daily good News´ today, August 1st.

    Will take more than a small awareness span to watch/see it, but it’s very worth it and to me it brought that smile from inside-out I haven´t have for a very long time during that contemporary challenge of a global crisis (more than just ‘Corona’).

    Like to share my smile – a smile as a root in resilence.
    And another way of looking onto all this social ( and more) distancing bias which are mostly distributed and discussed. Going astray then in a more depressive mood which I often are in danger from.

    Smile to you…

    Madhu

    • Lokesh says:

      Erm…Madhu, perhaps you should stick to blowing whistles. Perhaps give Shantam a few online lessons, until he gets a feeling for it. Only a suggestion.

      • Hi Lokesh,

        Re your yesterday´s post, you seem ti act as a secret referee of a gane here – that´s at least my impression.
        As far as your ´suggestion’ goes, I won´t take it. And the interpretation that I blew a whistle came from Kavita the other day, didn´t it?

        If you didn´t like that I recommended the vid about David Bohm re the chat round about that topic Shantam Prem delivered, why not say it without bashing (“stick to blowing whistles…”)/

        Iqbal Singh aka Shantam Prem, however, for a long time already has chosen your role model in the Chat as a mentor.

        And amazing is him mentioning: “If whistleblowing exists in neo-Sannyas, ´meetoo will restart.” (As if such ever started in these realms..).
        However – an as amazing as surprising flash of insight; yet as murky as some of the other contributions to thia in this “Anti-Guru Guru jobslot”, Iqbal Singh aka Shantam Prem has presented here a topic.

        Madhu

        • Arpana says:

          Madhu.

          I can’t work out if you’re praising or criticising The Shantam.

          Would you mind clarifying this?

          Thanks

          • Neither praising nor criticising, Arpana – it´s more facing some obviously very heavy karma (or the chronic PTSD I have to deal with when having to read most of the crap Iqbal Singh aka Shantam Prem is (mostly)presenting here.

            Same goes re other mysogonists having fun here at the expense of others.
            And some days are worse than others.

            And if you are that longtime contributor ´reader & writer ´Arpana´ in this chat, you quite very easily could have worked out your question to me – yourself!

            Madhu

            P.S:
            Still waiting (I guess) that one day Iqbal Singh aka Shantam Prem shares with all of us what´s in the very root-core of his megalomaniac rage, poisonous, his jealousy and ongoing competitive stance…and last and not at all least, his mysogonistic approach … =whereas the latter finds companionship – unfortunately…

            So – as I said – some of these days are worse than others (for me).

        • Lokesh says:

          Madhu, I just thought whistle-blowing might be a profitable part-time job for Shantam.
          Imagine if you will, a small ad in a Freiburg newspaper:
          “Whistles blown. Size doesn’t matter. Hourly rates.”

          I think such an ad might garner interest from certain quarters. I merely suggested that, due to your reputation as a whistle-blower, you might wish to give Shantam a few tips on how to blow a whistle for maximum effect. Unfortunately, you, Madhu, have decided against my suggestion to help Shantam out, for personal reasons, as I understand it.

          Shantam will just have to learn whistle-blowing through trial and error, in the hope that practice makes perfect.

          • It is my pleasure, if Lokesh deals with Ms. Dagmar and Arpana. Because it is not facebook wall, where one can block certain kind of people, I simply request them to ignore my posts. They are not for you.

            Sorry if I have hurt your delicate composition. One has no obligation to greet everyone who lives in the same street.

  46. kavita says:

    Klaus, binge-watched season 1, started season 2 – Dev is in Italy learning to make pasta!

  47. Klaus says:

    @Kavita

    Found these two guys quite lovely; there was a scene when both invited their parents to a Chinese restaurant because they wanted to learn more about their parents. Typical, would not have been too much different with my parents….

  48. Arpana says:

    Here’s a notion…

    Osho comes at his work from a heuristic place – proceeding to a solution by trial and error or by rules that are only loosely defined, but because of our educational upbringing, which was didactic at worse and mostly we struggle to read how he approaches his work.

    Q: What do you call someone who thinks everyone is incompetent (doesn’t know anything)?
    A: Didactic (adj.): (mainly disapproving) intended to teach, especially in a way that is too determined or eager, and often fixed and unwilling to change ‘a didactic approach to teaching’ Source: CDO (i) intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive (ii) in the manner of a teacher, particularly so as to appear patronising: “his tone ranged from didactic to backslapping.’

    MOD:
    Arpana, re “didactic at worse and mostly we struggle…” – could you clarify this, please?

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