Automatic Sannyas and The Great Sannyas

In his second article for Sannyas News, Prem Ritvik seeks to explain  why one need not worry at all about the future of Sannyas and where it is heading.
“I see a great future for the materialist spiritualist” (Osho)
Sannyas is an automatic happening. Sannyas is wisdom, which needs sound intelligence, as  Heraclitus cites in an utterance in ‘The Fragments’. To be a become a sannyasin, for Vairagya (detachment from the world) to take place, very rich intelligence is required. It must see through and beyond the intensity of the individual experience it is employed on.
When one is a child, one sees that toys are valuable. When one is beyond puberty, one sees that women are valuable. But it is also possible, either after enjoying several women or simply by witnessing one’s robotic attraction towards the opposite gender for the continuation of the species, that when one will encounter a pause in hormones, women, just like toys, will not be important anymore. Observing self-behaviour is the key!
And when one can witness another man or woman getting old, shedding teeth, suffering as eyes lose sight, how hard can it be to foresee one’s own surviving future? And thus, Sannyas descends, naturally, on one who has witnessed nothing special about oneself. The option of suicide is also present, for those who gain enough sound intelligence, but with a little more intelligence one may not hurry to achieve the inevitable. Such an automatic Sannyas happens beyond the psychological world of marketing or sex. It is the sharpness of intelligence which gives freedom to any conscious individual.
The Great Sannyas is total, removing boundaries between materialism and spiritualism. It is the daughter of Osho. It serves and will continue serve as a mother to anyone post the automatic Sannyas as a roof till the state beyond enlightenment happens. After that, the roof will disappear.
It has a great future as the East is now home to materialist western business houses, enjoying specialisation of details in all goods it never had before, while the West has overdone its materialist advances, creating extreme freedom so that frustration is often on display, eg with regular school shootings. The West has attained maximum misery. Therefore potential has spread its wings in both East and West.
Osho during his lifetime tried a series of experiments and developed useful and compassionate tools. He was fearless enough to declare unconditional Sannyas! This means that after the automatic Sannyas, for anyone who could understand him, Sannyas, the further internal transformation, was made available without any possibility of guilt.
Anyone can follow his vision.
Osho used four strategies during his lifetime to spread the message. Over the course of his life he spoke about 600 books on important people all over the world. Then in the next phase he reinvigorated, invented and polished effective meditation techniques for modern man. Yet he still placed his trust not on books but on his people, his living temples throughout the planet. And he stressed his vision. For any movie to be made on his life, he wanted his vision to be the centerpiece of it.
Sannyas will continue to happen, and the Great Sannyas where his temples harbour his vision will be sought, as Osho had a great insight into the future. The next generation must, however, find a living master in the previous one, otherwise they will miss something of Osho, where he clearly relied on those who surrendered to him rather than his 600 books.
The flavour of Sannyas is first a natural flavour, and then the flavour of the blessed one. Osho spoke “Those who have come to me directly are at risk to betray me while for those who had the thirst I am a discovery.” Some with thirst now seek those who gave quenched theirs.
The future of his religion is great as it is scientific and will be discovered again and again by those with thirst for truth.


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250 Responses to Automatic Sannyas and The Great Sannyas

  1. shantam prem says:

    I wonder how many of “His people” the writer of this article has met?

    Maybe Ritvik can also tell how many hours of Dynamic, Kundalini or White Robe he has done?

  2. Lokesh says:

    This article is so full of holes you can hear the wind whistling through it.
    Of the many points I completely disagree with I will cite one as an example.

    “Osho had a great insight into the future.”
    In truth, the future was not exactly Osho’s forte. When the Ranch collapsed he did not see it coming. When Osho was advised by a PR man to deliver prophecies of doom to attract more disciples, a low point in his career, he said Mount Fuji would blow its top, California would tumble into the sea and two-thirds of the population would die from AIDS.

    Of course, it was all bullshit and at the very least Osho displayed his humanity by making mistakes. He was right, of course, when he spoke about how the priests would take over his scene once he died.

    Ritvik is running on an idealised vision of Osho. As such, he is far away from the truth of who Osho actually was when alive. Osho did not have a great insight into the future as Ritvik claims. The truth is, Osho was not very concerned with the future at all.

    • shantam prem says:

      What Lokesh has written, cult of Osho has deleted those uneasy facts.

      Anyway, Osho has great insights about black holes. Now when NASA has found one and it is said the young lady who created algorithm to capture that rare image may get next year’s Nobel Prize, someone surely can write at Oshonews, “Why not Osho too be mentioned posthumously? After all, he has mentioned this in his talks.”

      Osho was a well-read man in love with books, whereas followers read only his books at the most. Nowadays, youtube clips are enough to write a scholarly article about Osho.

    • Arpana says:

      In the early 80s, during that period after Osho had left the ashram, before he settled in Oregon, so about a year or so, I went through, and I assume you know what I mean by this, a ‘shit has hit the fan’ phase, during which I was torn between, if you like, a personality I’d developed up until Sannyas, around my given name and, if you like, a personality I developed in Poona around the the name, Arpana.(Don’t take these remarks too seriously, this is just shorthand for something I’m trying to express as clearly and with as much brevity as possible). Which was one of the most difficult times in my life, I would say a bit like some teenagers appear to go through but ten times more difficult.

      About 15 years ago, I got hold of a Darshan Diary (which may have been ‘Hammer on the Rock’, but I am not sure) which was published in 1975 or 1976 I think, and in that volume Osho told a Swami – described in detail – what that Swami was going to go through, and he described to the letter what I went through in the early 80s.

      I also realise that it’s quite likely that a lot of what I heard him say was projection on my part, that he said a few key words upon which I was able to project my own experience; which it seems to me is a huge part of what he is about anyway, that he puts out a few key words and we do the rest, and that he then constantly reflects us back to our selves as we change and grow, as we develop. (I am just chipping into the conversation El Loko. Not correcting you. Not saying you’re wrong and I’m right).

      • Lokesh says:

        Yes, Arpana, I can dig it.

        Truth be told, I rarely reflect much on the good old days myself. Once in a while I do. The other day we were talking round the table about diving into Poona’s massive irrigation wells in the middle of the night. You had to be a little crazy to jump into ten metre high blackness before hitting the water.

        Those were intense times. So glad I lived it. Now the present beckons.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Ahh Lokesh,
      Thanks for challenging me.

      I agree that many of his insights fail where it comes to movements in the world. This comes in relation to his own unattackable and the most scientific statement given by any religious man: “I can be wrong.”

      Three days ago, the first photo of a black hole was released from a virtual telescope, the size of a planet. Stephen Hawking did not receive a Nobel because he died before this 100% substantial proof came out. We can see a place now, in the vaccum of this vast space, collided unto itself within a point, exhibiting the unexplainable within Existence. How could time stop? Could Osho explain this? No, and now it is there, for certain.

      Buddha has spoken about rebirths, and that as the cycle moves, consciousness increases from lower organisms to higher organisms. If we fit everything we know as living to follow up with this structure, we will still be left with viruses – totally dead till they enter a being, and then they are living all of a sudden! What to say about them? How could Buddha explain?

      Osho was clearly not into science as much he was into Psychology, and realising this, he spoke of Zorba the Buddha (spirituality with materialism) and Einstein the Buddha (scientist who is Buddha) – the second one was not fulfilled.

      What Osho could clearly see is the pace of technological development, its pace with airlines making travelling to great unknowns possible. For the average Indian society he was way ahead in materialism and for average western ones, in spirituality. He could span his feet in both the grounds, he could get a feel of the minds of both East and West and beat both of them. His vision was therefore not something spoken that was concerned with a few years, but was an understanding of the maturing consciousness of both the sides.

      Like Mahavira, who said that gods live on the moon, accurate as per the science of his day, Osho spoke on events, as per the understanding of his day. But the vision comes from much deeper, and synchronous with modern development. Where Mahavira’s total body rejection can lead to the impotence of the whole spiritual search at present when all comfort and material is so readily available, Osho’s combination is the most potent mix available for ages to come (most probably for this whole universal cycle).

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Lokesh, there is actually one thing even I was very shocked about with respect to near future circumstances; about vision, as I have stated I am well clear.

      That one thing was the death of Vivek. Ranch destroyed, all right. Secretary betrays, all right. But suicide of girlfriend? Or if it was not suicide, still how could whole thing go so uninvestigated?

      What was the mood of the time, if you have been a sannyasin since so long, at the time of her death?

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Anand Yogi, can you put some light here?

      • swamishanti says:

        Vivek was the girlfriend of Jayesh when she died, the story is of overdose.
        Actually, she had several lovers over the years, including Amrito and others during the Ranch period.

        But no-one knows if it was actually suicide or a mistake with sleeping pills, or possibly a mix with alcohol, such as the death of Jimi Hendrix and several others in the sixties.

        • satyadeva says:

          Vivek suffered from a manic-depressive condition, didn’t she?

          The cause(s) of her death seem to have been hushed up, presumably as a PR ‘damage limitation exercise’. I mean, can you imagine what the wretched Press would have made of it, eg: “Discredited Sex Guru’s Girlfriend Kills Herself With A Cocktail Of Drugs”, or, “Sex, Poisoning, Attempted Murder, Now Suicide – It’s All gone Wrong for The Bhagwan” (etc. etc.)?!

          • swamishanti says:

            Yes. I have heard about the manic depressive condition, or ‘hormonal imbalance’ that the other members of Lao Tzu house & her friends were aware of.

            But everything isn’t always connected and because I know those people were sometimes prone to a gin or tonic or two it could have been an accident.

            I have heard that she was seen to be looking happy the day before in the ashram. So who knows?

          • Shantam prem says:

            And SD, it seems you are defending such a criminal and undignified act.

            I hope Nature’s cctv cameras were funtioning properly.

            • satyadeva says:

              Your viewpoint is coloured by your despising ‘the regime’, Shantam. So you ‘can’t see the wood for the trees’, failing to appreciate their practical, pragmatic approach in this tragic case.

              And btw, what “criminal and undignified act” are you referring to anyway?

        • Lokesh says:

          Ritvik says, “even I was very shocked.”

          Gee whizz! Can you imagine such a thing? The great unshockable Ritvik shocked! That is shocking news indeed. All the readers will be shocked to the very cores of their beings.

          I will have to let this sink in, with a couple of aspirins and a wee lie down.

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            It generally happens in informal establishments that someone is going to betray.

            Now here we talk about somebody who was in love with a Buddha for 2 lives, and the Buddha who claims to save so many could not save his own girlfriend? Or ex-girlfriend?

            • satyadeva says:

              Did Osho actually ever make such a claim, Ritvik? Or was it others that made such a claim for him?

              • Prem Ritvik says:

                Everybody can see, Satyadeva, that both were affectionately close. Osho spoke to her as Gudiya who had come to take care of him in this life.

                He did not claim anything for any seeker, disciples are ultimately responsible for themselves. So is Vivek.

                There are a few things which can be baffling, mostly it’s the hush cover-up of her death.

                • satyadeva says:

                  But the cover-up of Vivek’s death isn’t “baffling” at all, Ritvik. As I said recently, it must have seemed the only safe option the ashram had, the alternatives being to risk inevitable media scandal (on top of all the other stuff), lurid condemnation, a PR disaster, another severe blow to Osho’s reputation and for his community.

                  Besides, she richly deserved better than all that self-serving, sensationalist hoo-ha.

                • Arpana says:


                  Those Zen stories about masters throwing disciples out of windows.
                  Imagine the outcry in a world encircled by newspapers, TV, let alone the internet.

                  The world of ‘spirituality’ takes place in a somewhat different context to then.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Satyadeva, I see it now…

  3. Lokesh says:

    Shantam, you are talking uninformed rubbish as usual. Osho might have mentioned black holes in his talks, perhaps in relation to people like you who has one in his head, but he did not have a glimmer of the scientific insight needed to take a photograph of one.

    • shantam prem says:

      Lokesh, my wise friend, read my post again and try to find irony.
      If needed, use glasses.

      • Lokesh says:

        Yes, Shantam, of course you might be being ironic. What is really ironic is that nobody but you knows if you are being ironic or not, one can only guess, so it is a bit of a pointless exercise.

        If you wish to convey irony you need to give a hint, which you do not. Otherwise everyone will just think you are being your normal daft, impulsive self.

        • satchit says:

          “Automatic Sannyas” is new to me.
          Until now I knew only ‘Traumatic Sannyas’ after the Ranch experience.

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            I call it ‘automatic Sannyas’ because for anybody who sees the nature of things without strings attached, Sannyas is bound to arise automatically. Since it is a result of intelligence, such Sannyas is heart-bereft.

            Brahmanas had communities of only such sannyasins but remained closed, and hence Buddha stressed to develop compassion first and enlightenment later so there is at least some trace of heart left, because Sannyas is going to take place anyway in some lifetime, whenever intelligence will get some room.

  4. shantam prem says:

    It was October, 1984. I went to a town called Rohtak for three days meditation camp and Sannyas initiation.

    As it was the policy around Osho books all the time, published work from Ashram was sold at cost price to wholesalers as well as readers. Booksellers were free to add their profit margin accordingly. It was clear I would buy many books as they were at cost price.

    What impressed me the most was the little book called ‘Rajneeshism’ in English and its Hindi translation, ‘Rajneesh Dharma’. Its price was not cheap. For 30 rupees at that time, I could have bought two big volumes but I still bought this book.

    Reason was clear, in this little pocket-size book, Osho´s prophecies were mentioned in detail: how Bombay, New York, Los Angeles, Tokyo would disappear under the ocean; that within 15 years, two-thirds of the world population would be wiped out due to man-made and natural calamities.

    And Bhagwan´s work was like Noah´s Ark to save the grain. Once monkeys stood on two feet, human race was born from that effort and now New Man would be born.

    Hundreds of times I have read these pages before the order came from the master himself, “This book must be burnt because it was Sheela´s creation.”

    One thing was clear, I was already a bit misfit with my social surroundings and was living under the impression of J. Krishnamurti´s essay, ‘Education and the Significance of Life.’ After reading those prophecies, my ambition to succeed went down the drain. For what?

    Years later, I realise Godmen too have their feet of clay. The great men who were predicting nightmarish nineties were giving instructions to their board members about the property and copyright management and foundations.

    • satchit says:

      Predicting nightmarish nineties was just a device to not waste time: “I am here. Come follow me!”

      • shantam prem says:

        Fuck the word ‘device’.

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        That is a very interesting interpretation.

        Osho was targeting all the groups – Christians, Hindus, Jains – by speaking on their leaders. Then out of compassion he spoke for the loonies who follow ‘the world is going to end’ trade. Many of them must have taken Sannyas attracted to these statements, only to discover their own endlessness.

      • swamishanti says:

        Other masters of the last century also have made apocalyptic predictions of destruction and worldwide upheaveal.

        Haidakan Babbaji was saying similar things to Osho, Sai Baba made some predictions that didnt happen, Maitreya Ishwara was talking about immanent and apocalyptic changes at the end of the nineties.

        Meditating on death and destruction is also a device that comes from Shiva, it is helpful to become more detached and transcendental. Meditating on the world being burnt to ashes is one of the tantric techniques. The disciples of Shiva live near the burning ghats to maintain awareness of death and impermanence.

        • satyadeva says:

          I live right next to Highgate Cemetery, SS, I can see various nearby gravestones from my kitchen window, just a few yards away, through the trees and the undergrowth.

          Moved there, in a way by chance, in mid-2015. 11 months later, a good friend (Dharmen/Brian) died. Then last July Parmartha, of course.

          Perhaps synchronistic, but anyway most salutary.

  5. anandrahul says:

    Dear Ritvik,
    You concluded your article with following:
    “The future of his religion is great as it is scientific.”

    I just wanted to ask that do you consider the techniques of other living masters – Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Sadguru, Jaggi Vasudev – to be scientific or not?

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      I can speak on my experience. I have gone deep into two schools.

      1.The religion of Sun Myung Moon is set on doctrines, is unnatural. It is like Confucianism. If you want to ‘handy dandy’ study a religion which reduces you to a little order-following kid, it is the best choice: “You must beat your wife before making love to her, wash away Eve’s sin of meeting a snake.”

      2.ISKCON is dangerous programming. One can get lost in illusion and experience bliss. I have experienced, but it is not close to your own self, hence suffocating in long run. It can be very stupid inside ISKCON as well. The primary reason I left was: 1. I had seen the whole undercover of programming when I read ’1984′ by George Orwell 2. I had to eat dal without spoon because spoon is western invention! I could take on programming but not stupidity!

      3. Sri Sri Ravishankar is total idiot, he is political, his guru was destroyed by Osho. I have met his disciples, who have somehow found some ‘specialness’ with regard to themselves after experiencing visuals from past lives! Even if the visuals are real, an intelligent person will see futility of whole drama of coming again and again but these disciples call themselves ‘specially made first souls in the beginning of universe’! That is new radical revolution in stupidity.

      4. Sadhguru – very impotent. Perhaps he looks more impotent than others because he is more clean than others in character and yet his words hold no authenticity. He comments without taking names. He is better a smiling politician out of politics, looking at a share in spiritual market for his growing business.

      His disciples parrot his words and move into the sabhas just to be a part of his society. I have no problem with him, and he has a great level of intellectual understanding of spiritual matters, the cleanest of the characters in lines of guru in the subcontinent, but not authentic. No silence rings in his voice.

      I would have commented on others as well, but unfortunately my favourite Gurus took too much viagra and are behind the bars at present. I miss the Colours of my life since they went to jail.

      Apparently, their connection to disciples was the strongest. Which disciple would not want their guru to force a connection on them? Apparently, contrary to their insights, nobody.

  6. anandrahul says:

    Ramana Maharshi as such did not give elaborate teachings or methods apart from self-enquiry.

    Still many seekers in the past quenched their thirst at Thiruvanamallai. And in the present and future shall continue to do so.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      I don’t see Osho giving anything different from Ramana Maharshi.

      And self-enquiry happens within the conscious person irrespective of Osho or Ramana, given he has some intelligence. The difference is whether this person will forget the ultimate question or not. If he forgets, much what he does in life is in vain. If he remembers, there is risk of going mad.

      Two skilled doctors await now for such patients. One with a horde of others in maroon, a mystery school ready. Another with simple instructions.

      And yet there is a third, Jiddu Krishnamurti saying the same and speaking against the doctors. He is most correct, but the doctors are most compassionate.

      People who will join Osho may not remain patients forever, they will be doctors like him one day, out of compassion. Therefore his school is the one which will last, while Ramana Maharshi, like many enlightened of the world, will be at risk of being forgotten in about 200-250 years. His name may survive because of Osho though. Compared to what compassion Osho has left behind things, his (Osho’s) school will attract most seekers because if truth is water drawn from the well, compassion is the tree which gives the quencher shade.

      Jiddu’s well has equally thirst-ending water, but it is least sought since it is in the middle of sun-scorched desert with no man to help you. Jiddu will kill the man himself on the way to the well.

      Ramana’s well is a village man’s well, with a hut, and some simple people around.

      Osho’s is jewelled and in the middle of a garden with a huge maulshree tree shadowing even the richest (to whom other trees are impossible to give shade, being taken by the poor).

      We do not need even Jiddu for the well within. But having Osho is a luxury.

      • Lokesh says:

        Ritvik declares, “I don’t see Osho giving anything different from Ramana Maharshi.”

        Coming from the great seer, Ritvik, who had a deep personal relationship with both these men, this is indeed shocking news.

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          That’s simply because while Ramana Maharshi directly says go for self-inquiry, all methods of Osho first wash you up, then tell you to go for self-inquiry.

          His is a tailored approach towards the same. That might appear different from outside, but is not.

          • satyadeva says:

            Well then, using similar logic, ALL masters end up using the same fundamental method. Which might sound like a satisfactory ‘unifying theory’ but which in fact reminds me of a warning from my old History teacher at school: “Beware of any explanation that seeks to explain everything while actually explaining nothing.”

            More accurate to say that the ultimate goal might be the same but the methods tend to be radically different, even in the later stages (from what I’ve heard and read).

            Reading such a statement I wonder where you yourself are actually at in the process. Or is it that your theories and beliefs are a pretty long way from your experience?

            • Prem Ritvik says:

              The statement I give comes from one irrefutable fact that one man discovers something on his own, from the origin. Just like Osho or Jiddu or Ramana, it is possible to have what is without any guidance, because if it was not available without the master, it would not have been experienced by any of the three.

              Your statement is much more close, I agree, it is higher in quality than just to say “everyone is pointing at self-enquiry” and stop there.

              As for theory and belief, I can build up complex theories, if they can explain something real. Beliefs I keep clear of, since they are impotent. I do not believe in the theory of rebirth, but I find it sensible to explain something real, so here there is a gap between theory and experience, but absence of belief.

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              You obviously had a very good “old History teacher” at school, Satyadeva.
              Congratulations !

              That´s what I call a good seed, if it is well taken care of in the ´garden….


              • satyadeva says:

                Yes, Madhu, I consider myself fortunate to have had him and also several excellent English teachers in the final years at school. Their lessons were of high quality, stimulating wide-ranging discussions, which I later realised were often pitched at more of a university level than ‘A’ level (final school exams).

                In fact, I reckon I got more from that than I did at uni.

          • anandrahul says:

            “Osho first wash you up, then tell you to go for self-inquiry…His is a tailored approach towards the same.”

            I agree with you on the above but have you been cleansed by now or how much time do you think His “tailored approach” would take to work on you?

            • Prem Ritvik says:

              Dear Anandrahul,
              Many times I have felt the peaks and fell down. My journey has been inconsistent. I feel if I would be consistent, then a month.

              How has your journey been?

              • Prem Ritvik says:

                Though I feel a month, but a living master can give a better estimation, maybe two more lives or something. My personal feeling, however, is a month.

              • satyadeva says:

                “Many times I have felt the peaks and fell down. My journey has been inconsistent. I feel if I would be consistent, then a month.”

                I wonder what “peaks” you mean, Ritvik. Could you clarify exactly what you mean, please, ie does this relate to ‘realisations’ (not just intellectual convictions) or to ‘getting high’, eg via Osho meditations or other means (I don’t mean artificially, via drugs etc.)? Or to something else, perhaps?

                Whatever the “peaks” might be, if they just dissolve (as it were) then the normal rule of ‘what goes up must come down’ is probably operating; you’re unable to ‘hold’ what you’ve touched, indicating that your inner work and your normal life experience aren’t adequately integrated, not yet grounded enough for these ‘realisations’ (or whatever they are) to become living realities.

                If so, then I strongly recommend you seek out a living master to guide you. (I don’t know, of course, but he/she might possibly advise that it’s preferable to learn to walk properly before even thinking about learning to run!).

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  A month of dynamic meditation. By “high” I mean deep meditation. Not just intellectual understandings. Then I put in the words to experiments.

                  Yes, I do seek a living master as much as I can, because if I am going wrong, nobody is there to tell.

                  “Then I put in the words to experiments.”
                  What do you mean here, please, Ritvik?

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  At the peak, after some intense meditation, often there is some beautiful realisation but as soon as the mind grabs to ego, all is lost.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Hello MOD,
                  Re “Then I put in the words to experiments”, I will give an example:
                  Osho said, “First take the jump, then think”. For Sannyas News, I mailed 10 contributions; this was a jump, I wrote whatever I saw. Now here I get the time to think, and also, people like Lokesh reflect me, people like Kavita welcome me, people like Madhu share some good videos, people like Veet or Anandrahul ask sincere questions. I did not think of all of this, but took the jump. Whatever happens, happens, I have to face it. Cowardice is out of the question in this experiment.

                  So I look into Osho’s statements and set out to experiment with them.

  7. Lokesh says:

    Ritvik, I’ve read all your posts up to here. Was reminded of someone who the Beedie Wallah described as “a firefly illuminating the universe.”

    What a busy mind you have.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      I love physics, that’s why. It is t hemost complex subject of all and explains the universe. Anything under physics is easy thereafter, only religion I see can be out of mind’s bounds. Mind achieves its pinnacle in science.

      Here is a video to enjoy:

      You will see that Einstein’s mind is not busy but focused on providing a relevant solution to a real situation.

      It is a very beautiful description you have supplied me from the beedie wallah.

  8. shantam prem says:

    One of the foremost sutras of scientific ethos is you accept your mistakes gracefully and recall the product even when small error is found.

    In scientific community, those who give better discoveries, inventions and theories get applause, even from those who are being rebutted.

    World of hero-worshipping can never, ever be called scientific.

    • satyadeva says:

      Perhaps someone might one day research what the scientists’ wives (etc.) have to say about their relationship with their highly esteemed partners. To discover just how ‘scientific’, ie unruled by emotional issues, they are ‘up close and personal’…

      Generally speaking, are you yourself ‘scientific’ in your life, Shantam , or are you at the other end of the psychic spectrum? Any chance of an honest, ‘scientific’ answer?

      • shantam prem says:

        I am by and large emotional type of person, yet I can call myself scientific for the reason I don´t hide my mistakes and blunders. One cannot define the truth but accepting lies and that too visible lies without denial is a scientific approach.

        More and more I have become agnostic. In the world of religious studies, this category is quite closer to my taste.

        • satyadeva says:

          The next question has to be:
          What do you think usually causes your “mistakes and blunders”, Shantam?

          • shantam prem says:

            Very short answer, must go to train station to reach Europa Park for work.

            When one puts all the eggs in one basket, mistakes and blunders happen.

            One of the foremost British numerologists, Cheiro, has written one usual mistake committed by trustful people: “Good man blinded by the folly of others. The person who lives from day to day in blissful ignorance of the problems that will catch up with him.”

            Numerological significance of Osho also has the same meaning.

            • satyadeva says:

              Unfortunately, that sounds like the behaviour of a gullible fool totally in thrall to his emotional wish-fulfilling fantasies, Shantam. Similar in fact to those who flock(ed) to cults that ‘promise(d) the Earth’ while delivering very little of worth.

              But what about your lesser “mistakes and blunders”? From where do they arise? The same sort of place?

        • Lokesh says:

          Shantam confesses, “I don´t hide my mistakes and blunders.”
          Hardly surprising, to do such a thing would require the powerful magic produced by the likes of the great British magician, Tommy Cooper.

          In the attached link you can watch Sri Sri Tommy Cooper make an egg disappear…

  9. Lokesh says:

    When I read Ritvik’s comments, I just get the feeling of someone completely identified with his mind and book knowledge. It all sounds hollow. He writes as if he understands profound subject matter, which I do not believe for a moment he does.

    Who is Ritvik trying to fool? The obvious answer is first and foremost himself. He has an answer for everything. Always a sign that something is not right. It would not surprise me if he had nothing resembling a sex life.

    It is often the case that a certain type of person gets identified with a spiritual mind-set because they are a failure as far as the world goes on some level or another. You know, that materialistic stuff is all below me because I am a really spiritual person. I am not saying this is how I see Ritvik, because I know nothing about him. But his writing reeks of that attitude.

  10. Shantam prem says:

    I have designed a plane. It is going to be biggest breakthrough in the aviation history. Generations will fly and remember how the mystical engineer transformed aviation industry.

    “Sir, when you are going to take the maiden flight?” asked a journalist.

    “As I told earlier, future generations will fly. I am happy with the airbus.” Thus spoke the mystic engineer.

    It seems this is happening!

  11. Shantam prem says:

    The people who work for their living don’t care a damn about this or that guru and their paper-thin sermons. No wonder majority of humanity is immune to this deviation.

    Is there a single sannyasnews blogger who has not been deoendent on social security? Maybe faceless Frank and Arpana!

  12. shantam prem says:

    One thing I must appreciate about young Ritvik, Indians are masters of the philosophical prose. it comes naturally out of Indian blood.

    India´s whole past was dedicated to the pursuit of philosophical truth and a collective wish to be free from wheel of life and death. It is possible or not, I am not sure, but Indians had this deep-rooted homesickness.

    It is only through the influence of western world that Indians started appreciating the beauty of earthly and worldly pleasures and are now going full-steam in pursuit of them.

    If Indian spiritualists want to be relevant in this age, they have to drop their mythological analogies and over-hyped reach of master/disciple concept.

    In my vision of future of spirituality, masters won’t hesitate to accept their humanness, its limitations & greatness. Surely such masters will attract small number of intelligent disciples who know quite well no one is infallible.

    Osho has played His role wonderfully as a bridge between old and new concepts. Future will use these lessons, phoenix rising from the ashes of the past.

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam declares, “India´s whole past was dedicated to the pursuit of philosophical truth and a collective wish to be free from wheel of life and death.”
      What a load of bollocks.

      • shantam prem says:

        Lokesh uses this bollocks too often.
        And such a clever man, he takes one line out of the whole post and finds the way to feel superior. This is done not once but time and again.

      • shantam prem says:

        Lokesh´s comment, a load of bollocks re my sentence, “India´s whole past was dedicated to the pursuit of philosophical truth and a collective wish to be free from wheel of life and death.” has given me the input to create an article, ‘Are Masters and Mystics a product of their cultural and social environments?’

        Do a few people think they fall from the sky randomly?!

  13. Lokesh says:

    Ritvik says, “I do not believe in the theory of rebirth.”

    Later, Ritvik says, “A living master can give a better estimation, maybe two more lives or something.”

    Is that so?

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      I do not believe, right.

      To emphasise how wrong I may be with my personal feeling, I speak of the time period not in months but multiple lives altogether.

      I still do not believe in rebirth, because I haven’t experienced mine, and that’s the only reason, while it does explain much. I cannot say authentically that it is there, but reasonably it’s the best candidate.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Hi Prem Ritvik,
        ´Good morning-time´ in the hemisphere I´m in here – and good morning to you!

        You say: “I do not believe, right.
        To emphasise how wrong I may be with my personal feeling, I speak of the time period not in months but multiple lives altogether.”

        Very good, I´d respond, that you´re stating over and over again, since you appeared as the new vital entity (and new ´youth´ and ´fresh´ on the caravanserai-block) that you are not the believing kind of type, but are up to experiencing and exploring.

        Point is though, that the manifold mind-patterns of science, ideology(ies), human historical trial & errors re organized ´religion´ may more confuse you (and/or others) than to explore and experience your very own and unique appearance, which is a miracle and a mystery after all.

        And as such – an unknowable Love Affair from Existance itself.

        ” Great” vs. “Small” Sannyas may not exist at all, but what to do, we seemingly are attached to (more or less automatically) ‘ratings’, arer´t we? And for a little space-time-being until the next (mind)-trigger comes in, we get a little rest.

        Sometimes it´s called ‘Growth’, what´s happening then.
        Especially when we leave it to Nature to take its course, and by that I mean, to give us a break, so to say.

        Ramana, whom you aspect here quite often, showed His Love, to invite us for a ´Great-Break´ in my eyes, while Osho was more into big (an often so joyous challenging) left the decisions for a (`Ramana´s) Break´) in the hands of our own nature and the conditions and conditioning we´ve been born in. That kind of ´Freedom´ is always difficult and very challenging to handle.

        In His body He was more a universal ´citizen´, that way attracting so many humans from all over the planet with very different upbringings, states of being, life-ages. mind-conditionings, etc. And they were all welcomed: It never was a cult of ´Youth´ or a cult of fanatics. as some like to see it.

        Yet – there was something fresh and new and youthful happening; and about the present state, I don´t know what to say.
        More targeting happening of the Issue: “Nothing ever dies”, essentially said.

        Some elders (like Lokesh), Prem Ritvik, happen to challenge your ´Fire-Fly´ appearance here. You obviously liked that ´picturing’ Me too, I liked it, as it described a lot of activities, was/is amazingly intriguing and sometimes inspirational. And thank ´you´ for this.

        There is ´no need to fight it´, Prem Ritvik, ´but invite it´, as we´ve been singing in one of our fabulous sannyas-songs, a long time ago.

        The Invitation, though, is always Inwards.

        And sometimes it´s very good (and nourishing) to give oneself (yourself) a break, to experience and to explore the manifold effects of a new (fresh) challenging, instead of reacting immediately.

        And sometimes one of such recommendations elders can give, might be useful.

        With a Monday-Mornings ´Hello´
        And with Love,


        • Prem Ritvik says:

          Hello Madhu,

          I will respond one by one to your loving words

          First-hand experience is so rich in comparison to belief!

          I call Sannyas great out of joy of it fitting in so well with present.

          Osho fits in better for me personally than Ramana, due to his path of debates primarily. I feel very close to him. Sometimes I have read books he has read, and imagined his eyes going across the same lines, and realised what an ordinary man he was!

          I have been grateful to Lokesh since he pointed out my seriousness. He has played the role of an elder indeed doing that; even if we fight now, it’s going to be a play.

          I also like that image of firefly lighting the universe! Now we know that beedi walas do poetry in their free time.

          As for reacting immediately, my immediate reaction was indeed to enter into a fight with Lokesh, or defend at least. But when I found that his statement hurts me, it must be true, I went into finding its validity and then accepted it. It took me six hours at least to come to the fact.

          I like how you write “Madhu” at the end!

  14. anandrahul says:

    Your comments and opinions have been read by Art of Living persons, Sadhguru Isha Foundation people and on Ramana by the Ramanasramam Trust people.

    Will any of your Master’s disciples come forward to shelter you if you rebel against these spiritual and social organisations?

    After all, you have been hearing your discourses on YMV (Your Masters Voice) tapes like yesteryears of HMV record company.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      I cannot have rebelled against them, for I am not a part of them.

      In fact I tried to save our Youth ISKCON wing I was a part of by telling one “senior sannyasin” there to save us from presentations or otherwise this group will dissolve, no one enjoys them. I had a word with him in private.

      The presentation was a tactic, programming done in return for food. To those who are disciples of Prabhupada and reading this, I want to ask, how can you call this spirituality? Luring young college kids for food and giving them your presentations before food? Trickery.

      To those who are from Sri Sri’s disciples I want to say that your guru has been frozen in scriptures. If you love him, if he has been effective for you, good for you. I find him not even intellectually good for me. I have not been to your school.

      But why has your headmaster spoken against Sadhguru without taking his name? Is he a politician? Or threatened from Sadhguru eating his market share? Sadhguru said “Shiva is someone who lived 45000 years ago” and Sri Sri says, “Whoever says Shiva lived 45000 years ago is saying utter nonsense.” Who is this “whoever”? And on what base is he uttering all of this!

      Those from Isha foundation, for them I have to say that this man can make you stress-free, and he is good at that. But his voice simply does not ring of silence because he is political and ambitious. “Biggest bust statue of Shiva”, “Rally for rivers”. These are publicity gimmicks related to promote paid stress-releasing programmes. He associates himself with these things just like business houses associate themselves to some poor child education things.

      I have not been to his school. Has it worked for you? I feel it cannot work beyond stress release.

      For Ramanasram Trust Foundation, I would like to visit you people, you must be carrying the taste of that simplicity.

      And to you, Anandrahul, I would like to say, I am responsible for myself, no need to protect me. If anybody has to protect, protect their sincerity, and avoid getting programmed.

  15. anandrahul says:

    The last paragraph of my post was harsh and I realised that it should not have been there.

    My only concern is that new people like you and me get provoked to rebel after listening to OSHO discourses but then we don’t have any cover by those who provide us malas, cds, if we get fired, sidelined by our own family, society.

    Anandrahul, you can always ask us to delete all or part of a post.

    Thanks, MOD.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      That´s right, Anandrahul, there is “no cover”, and yes, one can be ‘outcasted’, fired, sidelined by one’s own Biofamily, or by a Sangha, any moment.

      Or not…

      That´s a challenge, isn´t it? And yet, it’s just the way Life is (anyway) – only more than a bit concentrated.
      Btw, I know what you are talking about here experientially.

      And btw, I loved that you re-checked one of your own latest responses, and made that visible. For all of us.
      Made it more easy to relate to you (for me).



      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Hello Madhu,
        One can indeed be outcasted from a system, but one needs to weigh individual self against system and then choose own’s fate.

        If the self had something higher to hold than the system, then it is more dangerous to remain a part of the system than to become an outcast.

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          The power of wisdom, Prem Ritvik, does not work like you imageine it, I´d presume (in my experience): it’s not an individual ‘weighing procedure’, I more than guess, it has more the quality of a never-ending evolution.

          If human beings on the planet take further and further steps in playing the role of a ruler, the power of wisdom will respond and we all (humans) will be affected by it, no way to deny or to escape that.

          The Art of Surrender (a further one of the most misused items from the world of meditation) is in my understanding an Art of the world of the Heart´s Intelligence, and not an individual affair.

          In the numerous ‘breaking news’ of yesterday, some ambitious scientists showed up, presenting their success in artificial intelligence, producing the bio-technical forerunner of a human bio-heart out of a 3D Printer, working with human cell structure as ´ink´…

          (One does not know yet if there might be a day, one day, when some scientist says at the end of his life, as it is recalled from Albert Einstein, that if he comes again, next life he´d prefer to be a simple plumber – and something similar in the broadest sense is being recalled from the recent Stephen Hawking, the UK giant of Astrophysics).

          Something to ponder about, isn´t it, Prem Ritvik?


          I will spare to add some other shocking news of yesterday, as it is quite well known that on the one hand there is complaint about not being enough in the present-time and contemporary, and on the other hand there is sometimes a complaint that some topics are not spiritual enough…(oohh…my goodness…sigh).

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            I would not put it as power of wisdom, but insight of wisdom. I agree with you to the extent that it can have a never-ending evolution.

            I also sometimes get disturbed from too much scientific advancements, however they serve their purpose well. Indeed of Einstein, his statement shows that he lived as a sleeping scientist, not knowing what was happening.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      No need to rebel, that is such a stress taken. Just be creative and dance your way in dynamic meditation or kundalini!

      It’s so much fun!

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Also, I must mention, when I read your comment I felt some fear rising, as you mention that no one will come to protect. But I chose to have a dialogue because what I have to say is not some uneccesary false accusation. If any disciple of groups mentioned by you is really a seeker, they will first contemplate before replying.

      I find dynamic meditation an effective step in looking into whether we are being unecessary rebels or creative beings, to whom rebellion happens as a side effect.

      Also we are equal. Whatever I do, I cannot be superior or inferior to you. But our personalities are different so different things are going to happen through us.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        So, PR, would sadistic creativity, in its sophisticated instruments of torture, be the result of its rebellion against euthanasia?

        • satyadeva says:

          Veet, I realise you’re in impassioned dialogue with a 23 year-old Indian, but, in the interests of clarity, do you think you could possibly leave the youth in Asia out of this, please?

          • veet francesco says:

            “leave the youth in Asia out of this”

            Excuse me, Satyadeva, but I don’t understand what this means.
            I think it’s a reminder to stay on the topic…but in this case the MOD would have intervened.

            • Prem Ritvik says:

              Sex at right centre can be bliss. If kept away from sex there is aversion of that sense, which we call perversion.

              If kept away from life, anger accumulates and expresses itself. Sadistic creativity is whole joy of life suppressed. Sadism or Masochism is aversion of life. Then you get creative with it, it’s just creativity with your head, which is mad.

              It is in line with euthanasia, not of whole but of parts. Person who participates in it wants to die, but is not courageous, while mind’s tendency to ask for events help him linger on. It is a sub-intelligent act, just like watching a movie again and then some other movie, while the movie will go on and on, keep on coming, releasing, and the mind lingers on the events of movie, mind lingers on moments of pain.

              Both are equally stupid. To rebel against euthanasia, one has to have will to face natural death under all circumstances.

              • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

                Hi Prem Ritvik,

                Re 18 April, 2019 at 8:50 pm:

                I´m wondering if you do know what you are subsuming herewith:
                Through your own life-experience? Or past-life sessions? Or by observation of others in the here-now? Or as an intellectual ‘bystander’ of a historical channel?

                And please, what has the current thread topic to do with all this, which you yourself wrote and invited us to?


                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  With respect to the answer provided, it does not matter from where I bring it, as long as it has something of truth. Sometimes I write about my experience and words fail to capture it, sometimes I write outside of my experience and words convey it better.

                  The reason why I answered the question is because it was asked. You need to find out why it was asked from Veet.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Also, Madhu, with respect to this answer, it comes from my experience, as I have at some time madly exposed myself to sadistic media. How this passive sadism was brought to an end was when I met a friend who had been an active sadist.

                  It had arisen in me in the first place because of my split position as I had prestige in society and had to be near deaf to my natural needs.

                  Ritvik, could you clarify what you mean by “sadistic media” and “active sadist”, please?

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Hello Mod,

                  First I would like to tell you that sadistic media is at a lot of places, second to pervert media. By media I mean videos primarily. Movie songs have sexual perversion while movies have sadistic elements.

                  Then we have porn, which is direct perversion, still passive as one is not involved in act but is only a viewer, just like one watches a football match on TV or at stadium but is not playing himself.

                  I call it passive participation, as, given a chance, there is huge probability you will play, as your mind already enacts and gets thrilled as per events based happening in the game.

                  Active participation means not watching but being there, doing it. This friend had been an active sadist and had paid his price for it. He told me that I was a sadist and then went on to demonstrate a sadistic activity; he just wanted to show me where these things head to. Or maybe he did it for fun but I saw where this heads to.

                  It wasn’t a very serious thing, he invited me to see harm to an insect. That close it’s still easy to see the madness of a sadist’s mind. It’s a waste of time all over.

  16. anandrahul says:

    I really miss Parmartha’s outlook and his ability to present posts on the Sannyas scene worldwide .

    So do we, Anandrahul.

    We welcome news and contributions from sannyasins and friends from anywhere and everywhere. It’s good to have newcomers like you and Ritvik taking part in discussions at SN.

  17. samarpan says:

    Ritvik: “I don’t see Osho giving anything different from Ramana Maharshi.”

    Actually, Osho and Ramana differ quite a bit. Osho pointed out that Ramana’s proposed basic inquiry: “Who am I?” is subtly reinforcing the idea that a separate ‘I’ exists. The correct answer to Ramana’s question, Osho said, is: “Nothing”

  18. Prem Ritvik says:

    Parmatha had the mind of an editor, which is clear by his way.
    That is a rare mind.
    I wonder how he developed it.

    • satyadeva says:

      Well, Ritvik, Parmartha enjoyed taking a degree in Philosophy, Politics and Economics at a prestigious university, the LSE (London School of Economics), plus post-grad studies in Social Work, and with a foundation as a well-balanced, versatile, mentally and emotionally healthy young man with a large capacity for enjoying life, a naturally compassionate leader and a gifted networker, he could relate well with many different sorts of people, although disliking ‘elitism’, favouring working and relating at a ‘grass roots’ level (eventually becoming a largely self-taught gardener and finally using that in mental health social work with victims of torture).

      His long experience as a committed sannyasin, a true lover of Bhagwan/Osho, saw him flowering in meditation and ever-expanding love towards his friends, lovers, acquaintances, work colleagues and clients.

      I reckon the answer to your question’s in there, somewhere….

  19. Jivan Alok says:

    It’s the 2nd article of the 10, isn’t it?

    I have read the article circa 1.5 times and still couldn’t grasp the point. What on earth can a thing like “automatic sannyas” be like? If even sannyas can be automatic, then what else can be still not automatic? And can sannyas be calleed sannyas in the first place, once automatic? Are we discussing the meaning of the term “sannyas” here?

    And since the articles are being released like magazine issues that have been pre-written, from the very first reply of the author I have a feeling that those two persons (the original author and commenter) are not the same one. The latter tries to justify every word the former has written, and it looks childish. Jumping from the subject of the black holes pictures to the mystery of Vivek’s death is evidence that the title is no more relevant to the article so accidental topics arise to mix things up.

    Again, what on earth is “automatic sannyas” anyway?

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      You ask (yourself and us all), Jivan Alok: “Again, what on earth is “automatic sannyas” anyway?”
      Could be an appearance of an algorithm and a bot, so to say.

      Just a suggestion….

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Jivan Alok
      By “automatic Sannyas”, I mean Vairagya, which occurs as intelligence grows.

      Also, you need to stop torturing yourself reading me again and again and then complaining that you read me more than one time. That is childish.

  20. Lokesh says:

    Jivan admits, ‘I have read the article circa 1.5 times and still couldn’t grasp the point.”

    This is hardly surprising and shows intelligence. Ritvik writes bookish nonsense, fed through an industrial blender and then saturated in orange dye, then hung out to dry in a dark cave where they store obsolete bombs and nerve gas.

    Of course, he is a very spiritual guy. “Automatic sannyas” just means you can talk a lot of bollocks on SN and it’s automatically perfectly all right…because he is in a let-go and can feel Osho’s presence…and some simpletons in the village give him praise because he is only 23 and fell out of his pram and banged his head on the pavement at the tender age of 18. It’s a sad story. Reaching for my hanky now….

    • satchit says:

      Lokesh, your comment shows that your IQ is not high enough to get his message. “Automatic Sannyas” means there is no doubt, in the future the robots will take Sannyas.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Reading 1.5 times only shows that the person could not get the thing in one go and did not bother to complete the second go. I disagree with your insight this time that this shows intelligence.

      I am an ordinary person, an ordinary situation, most known to you as you pick up my faults so well.

      • Jivan Alok says:

        Prem Ritvik,
        I stopped completing the second go of reading your article as soon as I felt this was of no use, had it been the third or even twenty-third time. Sometimes better early than never.

        Your comments are at least live, because you react as a living person, not an “automatic” sannyasin, whatever this means according to you.

        Lokesh, to me, the whole act of sannyas is a jump, but a conscious jump. This is how I understand what Osho used to say about the new sannyas. Deprogramming and courage.

        Prem Rivik says:
        “And when one can witness another man or woman getting old, shedding teeth, suffering as eyes lose sight, how hard can it be to foresee one’s own surviving future? And thus, Sannyas descends, naturally, on one who has witnessed nothing special about oneself. The option of suicide is also present, for those who gain enough sound intelligence, but with a little more intelligence one may not hurry to achieve the inevitable. Such an automatic Sannyas happens beyond the psychological world of marketing or sex….”

        It has nothing to do with Sannyas, looks more like a passive acceptance of the inevitable fate.

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          Jivan Alok
          It’s Mahavir Jayanti today so I am going to give you 7 different answers for fun:
          Perhaps you are right.
          Perhaps you’re wrong.
          Perhaps you are wrong and right.
          Perhaps we both are right.
          Perhaps we both are wrong.
          Perhaps we are neither wrong nor right.
          Perhaps we are both wrong and right.

  21. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Dear Prem Ritvik,
    Not being sure about my ability to understand the nuances and semantic references of a language that is not mine, before asking myself if what you say is true, I try to understand why you say it, that is from what space you look at the world.

    I see that you put a lot of emphasis on the role of intelligence in Sannyas, and I think you are referring to the logical-mathematical one, but there are also other abilities that characterize sannyasins. I have known many of them who knew in a brilliant way to put together musical notes or a series of movements in the dance, but also truly talented ones able to synthesize in just a few seconds of (not) verbal language the right interpersonal key.

    But, in my opinion, any kind of intelligence that is not a side-effect of love can have mechanical and automatic aspects that are not necessarily a symptom of an existential intelligence.

    When I feel loved I usually behave in an intelligent way; on the contrary, when I try to be loved by saying or doing smart things, I often say or do bullshit, demonstrating that I am not an autistic genius like Kant, Godel or J.F. Nash.

    For me also, rebellion (with intelligence) is the side-effect of inner joy/love/ecstasy; creativity can be at the service of rebellion but not vice-versa; if rebellion is not at the service of love it is a power trip.

    I agree with what you say about the 4 strategies used by Osho, even if here when you read books they call you a parrot, if you do too sweaty meditation techniques you will hear a raspberry blown by impassive advaitas, and if you seek support from previous generations of sannyasins you will only find comments by old cynics and acid spinsters.

    But we must be loving with these former Christians, they had to go a long way to free themselves from the great lie, God:
    “Without God there can be no spirituality.” (Pope J. Ratzinger)

    For Madhu and Satchit:

    • anand yogi says:

      Perfectly correct, Veet!
      We must be loving to former xians such as yourself who, whilst Osho was alive, were sucking Pope and kissing his ring and making heroic and massive journey to pull themselves away from the ultimate temptation of sodomising children worldwide!

      This leaves you perfectly placed to pontificate to old cynics who have become cynical and bitter and do not take it seriously that you have been taken up the butty by British butlers with bank accounts in Belize and Bermuda and acid-spinsters who are still putting Kant, Goedel, Nash and Young on turntable!

      Hari Om!

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Anal Yogi, I see that I have left my mark on you by overturning your stereotype of a mafia country, made up of diligent butlers in the service of Europe’s greatest tax haven, but I have not said that you are rich – angry for a few cents of tip, maybe yes.

        Dear one, there are others who pontificate with the cynicism of renegades under the roof of the sangha.
        They use a hypocritically inviting slogan (“welcomes all sannyasins”) then emotionally abuse those who do not share their iconoclastic vision.

        And you perform for them, for free, like an altar boy, seeking their appreciation.

        • anand yogi says:

          Perfectly correct, Veet!

          In matters concerning altar boys and their performances, I bow to your superior knowledge and experience.
          Now, let us bend over and pray:

          Ave Maria, full of grace
          Pray for us butlers now and when our bonuses are paid.



        • satyadeva says:

          “…there are others who pontificate with the cynicism of renegades under the roof of the sangha.
          They use a hypocritically inviting slogan (“welcomes all sannyasins”) then emotionally abuse those who do not share their iconoclastic vision.”

          Problem is, Veet F, that one person’s emotional “abuse” is another’s legitimate critical appraisal.

          And, as you yourself have often enough been far from beyond using gratuitous sarcasm and assorted obscenities to put down others, perhaps using the ‘hypocrite’ label is a little too one-sided here.

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Satyadeva, the principle of legitimacy in this case I refer to the norm that “welcomes all sannyasins”.

            So a renegade here has the same legitimacy as a Pope to ideally remove a few billion godless people from spiritual life.

            To beat such illegitimate behaviour does not involve any effort for me, you should ask those who try to go beyond a bulky father-figure bullying his children.

            But I never reacted with gratuitous sarcasm saying that Barry Long is an asshole, even if it would be legitimate to do so, according to the criteria of renegade iconoclasts.

            Veet F, your other very recent post has been deleted. I trust you know why?

            VEET FRANCESCO:
            Too bad, I thought I had touched the pinnacle of humour.
            Btw, it was my way to support Satchit.

    • satchit says:

      Life is paradoxical, Veet.

      Did you ever think that maybe this is the support, that you don’t get support?

      What to say about old Benedikt?
      People become old, people become demented.
      Too much honey in the head.

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Dear Veet,
      People tend to see the world with respect to how they look themselves. For me, as mentioned earlier, I am just an ordinary happening in a point of space for a little while in time. That’s how I see you too. I see you coming to birth and your last rites getting done.

      As for intelligence, I do not mean only mathematical. It is only one aspect. Perhaps many people have got stuck with the word “automatic”. It means here “that which happens on its own”. Sound intelligence will make Sannyas happen on its own, it’s just a matter of time.

      As for putting others as former Christians, you are creating unnecessary division. They are also same ordinary dots in space/time, going to be blown out any moment as you and I. I don’t see anything special about them or us. Why worry about them so much that you state that they have to be freed of a great lie?

      Your concern places you as a special person, but you are as ordinary as anybody. If this makes you angry, pick up science book and check history of species, future of universe and your position at present. Osho may be rediscovered thereafter.

      And what I am finding here is my adventure.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Prem Ritvik, I like the way you castrate your emotions; don’t try to castrate mine, I’m not that advaita.

        If by “adventure” you do not mean the solipsism of those who use eschatological considerations to say that they do not find interesting the adventures of others, then the experiences and cultural perspectives, different from a family of Indian geniuses, are not unnecessary divisions.

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          I am not castrating anything, I am introducing you to science. Don’t confuse this with religious Advaita talk. Just go out and see what Stephen Hawking had to say! Maybe you are special, but I am certainly not.

          By adventure I mean my life where I discover my ordinariness more intensely each day.

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            PR, if I am special and you are not, why do you tell me what to do and who should I meet?

            You could ask your humble friend, because I suppose you cultivate friendships only with ordinary people like you, to come to me.

            • Prem Ritvik says:

              I did not say you are special, I said maybe. For me, you are certainly not special.

              I can be friends with you, Veet, it’s just that, whenever we both write something here on text without body language, much gets lost. Therefore there is so less friendship over here.

              Don’t take anything very seriously here as it’s less than half the thing present due to absence of body language.

              • Prem Ritvik says:

                The reason why I am not your friend yet is because your friendship is sort of political. If I agree with you, I agree that these ex-Christians have to be saved, they are in some special trouble. You do not offer me unconditional friendship, you offer me political alliance.

                It is so normally in male friendships, they bond together against enemies, and hence friendships become deep. I don’t want to be friends like that because I don’t want to give ex-Christians some special position; they are perfectly ordinary, forming alliance against them makes them special. So are you ordinary and so am I.

                I have no problem being friends with anybody as long as it’s unconditional for I will still be alone.

                • satyadeva says:

                  All this talk about “ex-Christians”…Don’t you people realise that for the post-war generations Christianity was essentially dead and buried well before Osho (& co.) arrived on the scene? But you make it sound as if we were suddenly (or even slowly) ‘converted’ or something.

                  I tell you, we already didn’t give a damn about Church, prayer, hymn singing and all the rest of the crap. At best, it was an irrelevant joke.

                • Arpana says:

                  Don’t you think the post-war generation were in fact conditioned to be Christian by their Christian parents and teachers?

                  And that actually, that ‘anti-Christian, we don’t care about Christian values’, was ideological, was a stance that was individually and collectively adopted and was as connected to Christianity as anybody who was against Margaret Thatcher was connected to her, because they danced around the same maypole as people who were for her?

                  Further to that, there was a schizophrenia in that, because that generation repressed the Christian values they were conditioned to and acted out their anti-Christian values, and eventually the conflict came to a head.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Yes, Arps, of course, conditioning from birth and in the very air children breathe isn’t necessarily wiped out in a matter of a few years. Look at what so many of our lot chose to go through (and still go through) to approach liberation from all that suffocating weight of the past.

                  But very many of us, from ‘extremists’ to more conventional types, saw through it, which is a considerable part of the ‘battle’, as we saw through all manner of hypocritical bullshine in our parents, teachers, priests, politicians and others in ‘respectable’ society. Aided of course by writers, singers and, not least, by brilliant comedy, eg Spike Milligan, The Goons, Peter Cook, Monty Python & co.

                  The fact is, ‘the times were a-changing’, intelligence knew the Christian game was up, it was just a matter of the times – and time….

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Satyadeva: “Ritvik also got a bit, hence you people….”

                  I understand the pain of Europe after two world wars. What I meant to Veet was, whether Christians or not, why are you bothered to save them from some great lie? To save somebody, and to think, “I saved somebody” makes up for a Big I. It’s easy to sense the ego trip.

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Thank you, Prem Ritvik, for the advice not to take seriously the things that one can read here, otherwise I would have had trouble following all the indications as you are prodigal in your comments.

                If the words are sincere, PR, they can imply different plans of existence than a literary one, therefore words also are an expression of material conditions.

                For me, material conditions affect the subtle aspects of existence. If you don’t kiss the queen’s ass today and you can spend your time trying to be creative, it’s because someone struggled, rebelling against colonial exploitation.

                I believe that today, Sannyas is no different from that of Osho’s first fiery speeches. It is about being honest in describing what is observed.

                Even if I don’t see material chains, the general trend of the mood that surrounds me is not at all joyful, celebratory.

                I could think about my own business and follow the dominant law today. I could compete with my neighbour, ceasing to waste time (it’s money) with spiritual things like writing love things on SN, or I could try to understand, thanks to SN, along with others who have an existential point of view similar to mine, how to remove the obstacles that today create so much misery in our hearts.

                It seems natural to me, when we are not part of the narrow industrial-financial elite, to be allies in this battle.

                But if you prefer to put your creativity at the service of this post-modern system of slavery, compensating for the loss of the sense of community with the tools of virtual freedom, it wouldn’t automatically make you an enemy of mine, perhaps just a traitor to your Sannyas.

                Don’t take all the stereotypes that circulate here about Indians too seriously, I would rather be proud of patriots who are not Christian at all, like Aurobindo.
                A couple of seeds of his rebellion against the British Empire:

                “Courage and love are the only indispensable virtues; they will keep the soul alive even if all the others were to fall asleep or be eclipsed.”

                “The aggressive and completely illogical idea of ​​a single religion for the whole of humanity, a universal religion that is strengthened by its own limitations, a single set of dogmas, a single cult, a single system of ceremonies, an ecclesiastical ordinance, a series of prohibitions and injunctions that all minds must accept with the danger of persecution by men and spiritual rejection or eternal punishment on the part of God, that grotesque creation of the human unreasonableness that has been the source of so much intolerance, cruelty, obscurantism and aggressive fanaticism, has never been able to take possession of the Indian mentality.”

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Don’t take all the stereotypes that circulate here about Indians too seriously, I would rather be proud of patriots who are not Christian at all…”

                  “…that grotesque creation of the human unreasonableness that has been the source of so much intolerance, cruelty, obscurantism and aggressive fanaticism, has never been able to take possession of the Indian mentality.”

                  Veet, you seem to have overlooked the ever-recurring theme of Hindu-Moslem antagonism from which much slaughter and other unspeakable atrocities have arisen.

                  Likewise, the nature of Narendra Modi’s Hindu-nationalist government over the last few years.

                  Thus you select certain aspects that suit your particular perspective, just like all fanatics.

                  But perhaps you’ve nothing much else, externally speaking, to focus on in your life, to provide something for your energy, skills and self-esteem to get stuck into?

                  Whatever, I recall in ‘The Mustard Seed’, Chapter 10, Bhagwan agreeing with Jesus’s statement:


                  I suggest you might well have to choose: Politics or Osho?

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  “I would be proud of Patriots who are not Christians”
                  Your nationalism comes in between all else. It’s an obstacle which speaks through you. You talk like Pope who wants to save the Christians of Isis-affected area, as if others are not humans, only, you think reverse of it.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Why I asked you to go through science is because when you will see the unrefutable history of species, it becomes more clear than ever to spot the politico-religio nonsense. It is just a tool to make man stand against man and you are becoming a pawn to it. Not in any sense just a 2000 years-old religion can cause any difference to humans which were reared by a million years of evolution.

                  So the West colonizes, calling Indians inferior, but then it is stupid to continue the circle calling them inferior when they themselves have scientifically discovered the matter of truth – evolution from same Africa. They are as ordinary as us. Only a drug, a sense of ego, can continue an calling each other inferior or superior. That’s simply unscientific.

                  As long as you think some Indian is special, you say you are special indirectly. Scientifically, nobody is.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Veet, you can mail me at my ID:, which is a more intimate place.
                  I accept friendship, but no conditions.

            • satchit says:

              @ SD
              I don’t think that Veet belongs to the post-war generation.
              So it’s difficult to talk about a “we”.

              • satyadeva says:

                Satchit, by “we” I’m referring to the post-war generation, not necessarily all the SN ‘regulars’.

                • satchit says:

                  I think with this “ex-Christians” stuff, Veet just wanted to provoke the “elder sannyasins” a bit.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Ritvik got into it a bit too, of course. Hence my addressing them as “you people”.

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  “I suggest you might well have to choose: Politics or Osho?”

                  Satyadeva, are you asking me this as a disciple of Osho or Barry Long?

                  You can strain yourself with your advaita charms but a subject of the Tropics crown is a subject is a subject…Start from that if you want to improve self-esteem.

                  I do not mention the astrological reasons for your proud political irrelevance, so as not to depress you too much.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Veet, I’m simply giving you some feedback on the impression you’ve given in your current and many of your previous posts.

                  Seems you have little of value to communicate in response, just a rather boorish defensiveness all too typical of the angry political rebel thinking of ‘revolution’ but not, apparently, ever actually doing anything about it.

                  (Btw, fyi, I’ve little or no connection with advaita).

                • anand yogi says:

                  Perfectly correct!

                  There is certainly revolution in the air and we are actually doing something about it!

                  Up against the facebook wall, motherfuckers!

                  The exploitative British empire of Belizean butlers headed up by the Queen, SD, Frank, Lokesh, repulsive people with Moon in Aquarius, English aristocrats with unhealthy interest in Uranus and other merchant bankers are quaking in their tailcoats!

                  Soon a caliphate under the auspices of vision of Al Bhagdaddy will be unleashed by three-pronged attack of trishul of new man!

                  Ritvik, head of Osho Taliban in India, providing theoretical theological backup and rationalisations! Shantambhai, spiritual terrorist of IS (Indian Sannyas)sleeper cell, waiting, fast asleep in a church somewhere in Germany, for the call to action on Assbook and Veet, downtrodden but fearless Italian squaddie with La Gazzetta dello Sport, copy of Das Capital with several pages heavily stuck together and another book with big words and no pictures in it carried in manbag, will storm the citadels and the rotten old man, held together by his lackeys on Sannyas News will fall!

                  Empire shall be no more, and the baboon and butler shall cease!

                  Hari Om!
                  Osho zindabad!
                  Osho Akbar!

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Almost true, Satchit, I was born 20 years later in the place of battle where Roger Waters’ father arrived by sea. As a child, going to Mass on Sundays I always passed that English cemetery where he rested. I have always had a thought of love for those soldiers, under those neat white crosses, that bright green grass always cured.

                My mother, on the other hand, was 3 years old when she heard the echoes of the Cassino battle, hidden in a tunnel. Then in Cassino, 40 years later, I was a soldier; in that year there were two deaths, a suicide and an accident while unloading a weapon.

                Then the reports from Vietnam, Palestine, Indonesia, Central America, South America, Somalia, Serbia, Iraq, Syria….

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Perhaps some chronological order would help. Wondering if the arbitrary boundaries drawn by the colonial powers were the cause of subsequent wars, in India or Israel.

                • satchit says:

                  So you are around 50, and the guys from the post-war generation could be your fathers?

                  When did you take Sannyas?

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Satchit, you who can reply to Satyadeva, unlike me who does not have the “reply” option to do so, tell him that it is very arrogant and incorrect to use the technical advantage of managing a forum with this kind of minor misconduct.

                Tell him that I have miles of arguments to oppose his ethnic, religious and political considerations about Indians.

                Explain to him that a religious war and a war for the territory do not always coincide. Remind him that the patriot Aurobindo is not responsible for what happened politically and socially to India after independence, assuming that the British economic interests there had not continued to divide and corrupt as before.

                Then it doesn’t seem to me that the Indians have ever made wars of conquest in the name of God.

                As far as my political irrelevance is concerned, this is certain, but I am not proud of it, so I continue my sharing for a battle that contrasts the drift of a dystopian world that is being foreshadowed.

                Osho talked about priests and politicians as soul mafia, this should not be confused with the apology of a skinhead’s anarchy.

                In fact, the rebellion would not make sense if there were no high way of conceiving and doing politics, a wisdom in using power.

                Veet F, we don’t see your point re being unable to reply as this post is itself a reply!

                And re “tell him that it is very arrogant and incorrect to use the technical advantage of managing a forum with this kind of minor misconduct”, please understand that no one at the admin team has any idea at all what has happened re your Reply button, least of all SD, as he’s virtually computer-tech illiterate.

                • veet francesco says:

                  MOD, I refer to the fact that not all comments have the “reply” option, in fact when not available it must be replicated using the option present under someone else’s comment, creating confusion, chronologically and therefore of contents.

                  Ok, so maybe I’ll have to direct my frustration against a different person that knows how to delete comments, and who knows how many other technological fireworks.

                  To take another example of the consequences of the lack of my answer because the option “reply” was not available: in my first comment to this article of PR I wrote that “we must be loving with these former Christians, they had to go to long way to free themselves from the great lie, God”, then Satyadeva deduced from this ironic phrase, which eventually invites former Christians to save themselves, that it was the hypertrophical* saviour in me who spoke.

                  Thus a distracted reader could take for granted that I am the one with the attitude of the missionary, when in reality with him I only share the position over a woman.

                  In fact, now even PR, with the sensibility of a nostalgic one of the queen’s ass prefers to base his comments on authority (hierarchy) that expresses the perfect polished lexicon of SD rather than the authoritativeness of the contents of what I say, becoming in his eyes the special revolutionary deluded ONE to which SD refers.

                  Fortunately, on my side there is always Arpana to support me when I am under attack from A. Pennyworth sharks.

                  Adjective From hypertrophy: the increase in the volume of an organ or tissue due to the enlargement of its component cells.

                  Veet F, as I said yesterday, we simply don’t know what causes a ‘Reply’ button to disappear (or re-appear). Perhaps Clive/Jitendra can help when he returns from holiday in a week or two.

              • veet francesco says:

                “Your nationalism comes in between all else”

                Prem Ritvik, in the name of Khudiram Bose! Are you saying that I would be less nationalist if I say that people like you deserve to sweep English colonial houses without holding the broom with your hands?


                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Eventually, PR, please don’t respond to me with your usual shoot about science.

                  From the incompleteness theorems of Godel to the discoveries of quantum physics, the real scientists are those who know better than others how little they know, and how little can be known by demonstrating. Few possibilities, therefore, apart from some young people who must sublimate, for hormonal reasons, to inflate the ego by giving lessons.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Dear Veet,
                  I cannot communicate with you since it feels you are not ready to listen, hence I will communicate when I feel you are ready.

  22. Shantam prem says:

    Ritvik and a few others are future of Neo-Sannyas and legacy holders of great departed master. Within 20-25 years the generation who has been around Osho will be gone. It will be field day for those who can feel oxygen through words only.

    In a way, golden days are ahead for a tiny religion around the memory of Osho. Am I looking forward to be born again in this tiny group of people who can repeat O talks from their primary school days?

    Beloved God, have mercy. Give me an eternal break from pop religious texts.

    • anand yogi says:

      Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

      Swami Bhorat has had a sneak peek into Akashik records and you are in fact destined for next life with head stuck up Guru Palak`s ass whilst simultaneously enjoying favours of blow-up doll made by Western mind!

      In fact, same as this life!

      Hari Om!

  23. kavita says:

    “It has a great future as the East is now home to materialist western business houses, enjoying specialisation of details in all goods it never had before, while the West has overdone its materialist advances, creating extreme freedom so that frustration is often on display, eg with regular school shootings. The West has attained maximum misery. Therefore potential has spread its wings in both East and West.”

    Now I am wondering if it has a great future as the West is now home to spiritualist eastern communes, enjoying specialisation of details in all meditations it never had before, while the East has overdone its spiritualist advances, creating extreme freedom so that bliss is often on display, eg with Enlightened Masters in jails. The East has attained maximum bliss. Therefore potential has spread its wings in both West and East.”

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Hello Kavita!

      Those spiritual communities set up in the West might be working great as a showpiece, (they work great as showpiece in India too, attracting foreigners here) but how many individuals have lived religiously, whether inside or outside the communities? My observations, as Madhu mentions the development of technology, is that it gives immense freedom, now one can 3D print a human heart!

      With machines making all, some people have been so frustrated, they have killed so many innocents, even kids, simply out of too much freedom! These communities, even if they are more than showpieces, do not represent the collective mind of the West. The shootings only scream, “We need help!!”.

      Therefore a wing is spread over now, they only have to lift their eyes and they can fly with Osho, who supported the western materialism. As for East, it has not overdone spiritual advances, but it has advanced so much it can be so confusing that it is easy to corrupt it. These babas in jail do not represent real spirituality, but only criminality and are at the right place.

      The situation in East is that, as unmarried, highly paid population grows, businesses to serve their leisure expand, and finally youth is discovered, one can party and enjoy life. With such a discovery, their longing for materialism will be exhausted as they finally practise it, and Osho’s materialism which caused his India-wide rejection is not a trouble anymore. Therefore he can now be understood way better.

  24. kavita says:

    Hello Ritvik ,
    I am simply saying there can’t be comparison because both these hemispheres have totally different conditionings.

    I am not denying the criminality of these persons in jail.

    PR, what advances are you talking about, can you specify them?

    Do you mean to say the whole of India/human race should follow Osho?

    Materialism is not Western, it is human. Nor is spirituality Eastern/Indian.

    Like beauty, perhaps misery too is in the eyes of the beholder!

    • Prem Ritvik says:

      Dear Kavita

      Here I have tried to explain to you what I mean one by one.

      compare (definition):
      to consider people or things in order to see how similar or how different they are.

      So we compare the conditionings. The vessels of conditioning are similar and the same.

      The West’s conditioning (western mind) has been tilted towards outer materialism and progressed in science while the eastern one is tilted towards inner and progressed in spirituality. Materialism also happens in East and spiritualism in West but not dominating the all over conditioning.

      Advances mean, just like West has multiple specialised schools of science, East has so many schools of spirituality. While science is well bound outer experience, it cannot confuse, but the spiritual schools can easily face chaos as the point of axis is not outside but an inner experience and gets corrupted by fakes, and so that has happened.

      I mean to say the whole of human race should follow Osho except for the Middle East. They need to follow US Sanctions.

      Materialism is a need of survival and furthermore can mature into luxury. Spirituality is the base of a meaningful life and can mature in godliness. They both certainly exist with the same medium, side by side, but the collective conditioning is tilted towards one side in East and West hemispheres. The reason is they could not communicate with each other for thousands of years. Now, due to technology, human living on both sides can allow best of both, materialism, spiritualism to grow.

      • kavita says:

        Ritvik, you are sounding more like Osho’s Taliban now!

        Shantam should be very happy, seems Osho’s Taliban & ISIS have finally met!

        • Prem Ritvik says:

          I will ensure that everybody follows Osho and those who don’t will have to pay price by their lives.

          I am already funding some Osho terror camps and they will soon be out to kill by laughter. Anand Yogi is already an undercover agent here on SN.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

            You are certainly the messiah that Sannyasnews has been waiting for!

            The baboons of SN should listen to words of wisdom from own tradition as heard by you whilst nodding off in church!

            “Blessed are the dole-scroungers, they toil not, neither do they work, but I say to you, not even Solomon in all his glory received as many free hand-outs.
            Blessed are those off their heads on anti-depressants for they know not what they do, neither do they care.
            Blessed are those with holey underwear for they shall whip it out without anyone noticing.
            Blessed are those without their moon in Aquarius for they are not repulsive in thine eyes.
            Blessed are the lobotomised for they shall certainly achieve a state of no-mind.
            Blessed are the brownskins for they shall inherit Koregaon Park.
            Blessed are those who watch Japanese Zen porn for they shall see God.
            Blessed are those who are reviled and persecuted and reviled on Sannyasnews, for at least they are getting some attention.

            Sufficient unto the day is the Prozac thereof.”


  25. samarpan says:

    Shantam Prem: “Ritvik and a few others are future of Neo-Sannyas and legacy holders of great departed master.”

    Automatic sannyas just happens. It is not Osho’s doing, as Osho himself stated.

    “When someone comes and asks me to initiate him into sannyas, I tell him, “How can I initiate you into sannyas? Only God can initiate you. I can only be a witness to your being initiated. Get initiated by the divine, the supreme being, and I will bear witness that I was present when you were initiated into sannyas. My function is confined to being a witness, nothing more.”

    A sannyas tied to the Master is bound to become sectarian. It cannot liberate you; instead it will put you in bondage. Such a sannyas is worthless.”

    Osho (‘Krishna: The Man and His Philosophy’, chap. 22)

  26. shantam prem says:

    The day Bhagwan became dirty word, Sannyas and Swami were also flushed automatically.

    This is such a common sense.

  27. shantam prem says:

    Is it a clear-cut reality that masters get free from life and death wheel? Who knows it and who has seen it?
    I won´t say Osho is not a true master; I believe this, the way many others believe their patriarch is the true representative of Cosmic Intelligence personified.

    As I have heard from the master, 99% are not the true masters. Anyone can take the liberty to fix their one in the one per cent. So when 99% non-true masters get birth again in their next life, I don´t think they will have the brain and temperament to be doctor/engineer kind, the conditioning has the philosophical bent.

    Because they are not allowed to play masters again as they have played this role already, their true calling will be to read Osho literature!

    Now for the fun sake, one can imagine, Bhagwan Shree is reborn and has to read His own books. It will be kind of tragic comedy.

  28. anandrahul says:

    Bhagwan Shree reborn!

    Never Born, Never Died.
    The Last time he was here was only a visit to this planet.

    And remember, this time don’t smuggle AV Equipment. Better pay import duties as applicable and GST chargeable.

    • Jivan Alok says:

      Anandrahul, the epitaph “never born, never died, just visited….” was said by Osho, who was actually born and died and visited this planet. The mystery lies in a fact the he (or someone) realised that he had never been born, would never die and Osho disappeared at the same time of such realisation. Because who was it who had never been born, etc?

      The question is, who was Osho anyway, from the point of view of people who were born and will or did die? Because for them, and for me, Osho was born and died etc.

      • shantam prem says:

        The epitaph “never born, never died, just visited…” was said by Osho. It feels like the contents are doubtful. So much lies and deceptions are created by the alpha males around Osho, almost like movie script prepared with effort and deliberation.

        The persons who don´t want to leave a religion behind care not what kind of wordings on stone are there. No Indian mystic has ever played such a gimmick and I am sure Osho too had no interest in leaving behind such an over-the-board marketing punchline.

        • Lokesh says:

          Shantam, you miss the point of Osho’s epitaph. It is certainly not a gimmick or marketing punchline.

          Are you really that stupid? Or am I once again missing the irony?

          • anand yogi says:

            Certainly Osho wanted to leave religion behind so Shantambhai could be important elder in Pune religion!
            But instead has to go by himself to pray in whiteskin church and play with himself in back row to keep warm!

            All because of lying, deceptive gora alpha-males who have stolen religion of religious brownskins and can get sleek, pretty young Asian girlfriends whilst Shantambhai has to pick up sloppy seconds from minging flabby slappers at local swingers club!

            However, it is not all bad news: Shantambhai`s efforts are receiving attention in Germany!
            His local unemployment centre are putting up sign:
            ‘Never worked, never tried, just visited this office.’

            Hari Om!

          • Shantam prem says:

            What is your opinion, Lokesh?

            • Lokesh says:

              What?…Who? Me?…Opinion?…I do not have an opinion…Let me make one up…ehm…erm…I think SN has become a bit overly intellectual in the worst of ways, head-tripping, hiding lack of understanding beneath a pile of words…no wonder there are not many female contributors…too many guys with their heads up their asses, talking a lot of hot fart gas.

              There you are, Shantam…not much of an opinion but that is about the extent of it. Everything passes, and so will the current new kids on the block phase. Empty barrels make the most noise, etc.

              • frank says:

                Yeah, guys,
                More idiosyncratically idiotic visions, legless legacies, aggravated algorihtms, pseudo-intellectual no-mindism, spiritual bypassing, cultic abuse, narcissism, have-a-go-advaitism, paternalistic parroting, sheep-shagging, out-and-out gibberish and absolute bollox, please!

                Come on!

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Frank, if yours is not a criticism of the editorial choice for the topic in question then yours is a captatio benevolentiae* for the bullshit you’re about to say.

                  Come on, boy, don’t be afraid of not being up to the many geniuses here – shoot!

                  *captatio benevolentiae: a Latin phrase defining oratory at the beginning of a speech that draws benevolent attention and the good graces of an audience.

                • Arpana says:


                  Help me out here.
                  Did you really “captatio benevolentiae”?

                  I thought this was just an overlong quip.

                  Scratches head in puzzlement….「(゚ペ)

              • shantam prem says:

                Your post can be the base of a new article. It has the discussion potential from various psychological points.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Shantam, I think psycho logical is more your department.

                  I will write an article in a month or so. Sometimes it is good to hear something from the other contributors.
                  Looking in my crystal ball I see an article from Arpana in the near future. Abracadabra!

  29. anandrahul says:

    Could someone hear ‘A LION’s ROAR’ in my post or do I still sound like a sheep?

  30. anandrahul says:

    It is high time that it should be accepted that there were some of the narcissistic tendencies in Bhagwan.

    There were and are many masters who, though not as extremely self-realised as Bhagwan, were able to deliver the teachings without being critical of contemporaries and of common folks.

    • Lokesh says:

      Rahul, how do you know that Osho was extremely self-realised? What is the difference between self-realised and extremely self-realised, and how did you manage to get yourself in the position of being able to identify such states?

      • anandrahul says:

        I was working on music and creating remix versions of the trance music and smoking some special stuff.

        You who add trance background and other technological stuff cannot doubt my position.

        • anandrahul says:

          Lokesh, you add some music to the tunes which were composed during times when OSHO was alive and you name this music as your creation.

          How will you judge my position?

          • Lokesh says:

            Rahul, why should I judge your position? I have no idea what your position is. Not so interested in your position to be honest, whatever it is.

            • kavita says:

              Loki, this piece is such a reminder for self-remembrance, thank you!

              I have downloaded this on my comp!

              Every time I have listened to this, somehow this rejuvenates, self-remembrance!

              • Tan says:

                Agree with Kavita.
                Really cool, Lokesh!

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yes, it was a bit of a magnum opus. The Indian singing was dubbed from a singer in Berlin, which for me is the highlight of the song. Guru, guru!

                • anand yogi says:

                  Again, the Scottish skinhead provides more evidence of how criminal western baboons have stolen the private property of mighty Bhorat for their own ego-drenched purposes!

                  First, our mighty religion stolen in broad daylight by the goras, now even the music!

                  Is nothing sacred?

                  Swami Bhorat now fears even for Shantambhai`s holey underwear!
                  At this rate, it may end up fuelling the unsattvic lifestyle of some so-called artist with moon in Aquarius in an installation in Tate Modern*!

                  Hari Om!

                  *Tate Modern: Major contemporary art gallery in London that features the likes of Tracey Emin’s ‘installation art’, notably her famous ‘unmade bed in untidy bedroom’.

                • anand yogi says:

                  From the Tate`s latest promo lit:

                  “Probably the biggest breakthrough since ‘Fountain’ (1917), Marcel Duchuddy`s ‘Religious Crap’ explores the disillusionment emerging from fragmented grand narratives of phallocratic pre-modern longings as patriarchal pedagogy processing deconstruction by post-truth paradigms of internet porn, swingers clubs, excessive ejaculation, welfare-dependence and lack of washing facilities.”


                • satyadeva says:

                  My God, what utter twat was responsible for that?!

                  Such pretentiously incomprehensible, ‘Emperor’s New Clothes’ garbage is enough to drive one to “Automatic Sannyas”!

                • satyadeva says:

                  Isn’t it, Shantam?!

                • kavita says:

                  Well, Loki, I know this singer from Berlin! Give him a big hug from me!

                • kavita says:

                  Yes, SD, who else can sing the Indian raga, breathlessly?!

                • Arpana says:

                  @anand yogi, 21 April, 2019 at 9:26 am:

                  I don’t know if I can muster SUFFICIENT STRENGTH to de-instantiate* that Platonic ideal in human form. And it’s raining.

                  Instantiation is the creation of a real instance or particular realization of an abstraction or template such as a class of objects or process.

                  To instantiate is to create such an instance by, for example, defining one particular variation of object within a class, giving it a name, and locating it in some physical place; de-instantiation is the opposite.

                • anand yogi says:

                  Certainly, SN is a beacon of post-modern, post-truth art! Many of the contributors to SN are highly accomplished conceptual poets!

                  “Conceptual poetry is an early twenty-first century literary movement, self-described by its practitioners as an act of “uncreative writing.” Conceptual poetry is focused more on the initial concept rather than the final product of the poem.

                  In its extreme form, such works are process-oriented and non-expressive. Some of these works include large amounts of information, have little meaning and are not intended to be read in their entirety.”

            • Arpana says:

              This is a bit tongue-in-cheek. Yes/No.
              Reminds me of something I’ve heard. Good fun.

        • Shantam prem says:

          Arrival of two young Indians on this site is a welcome change. They are giving already run of the money to the seniors.

          Anand Rahul, don’t feel that bad that you were not around Osho. Those who were around – look at their life and wisdom level. Do you feel envious of them?

          • Arpana says:

            Anand Rahul,
            Bear in mind as well that remark is particularly true of Shantam. He was around Osho, and who in their right mind would want to be like him, let alone have anything to do with him?

          • anand yogi says:

            Utterly correct, Rahul!

            Seeing life and wisdom level of Shantam, who was legend in his own lunchtime in ’88-90 pumping phase of Osho`s work, is it not more than enough to provoke desire to throw oneself under bus on road to Moksha?

            Hari Om!

          • satyadeva says:

            Do you include yourself among these “seniors”, Shantam?

            And are you referring to ALL “seniors” at SN, or all such “seniors” anywhere?

            • Shantam prem says:

              SD, Shantam is not faceleess Yogi or living in denial like Arpana.
              I bear the shot first before the volley goes to others.

              • satyadeva says:

                That’s an inadequate response to the question, Shantam.

                • Shantam prem says:

                  I am totally disillusioned with sannyasins and the patriarch. Sorry, I can not recommend either to anyone.

                  Surely I love the spirit of search: search for better world, to better oneself. On that level, my respect is intact for sir Late Osho Jain and the people who followed the new.

                • satyadeva says:

                  So, Shantam, why even bother to come here? Are you some sort of masochist, perhaps?

                  Or do you simply enjoy unloading variations on the same basic negativity over and over again?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shantam, how can you be “totally disillusioned with the patriarch” and at the same time claim that you “love the spirit of search…On that level, my respect is intact for sir Osho Jain…”?

                  Seems you’re misusing the word “totally”, doesn’t it?

                • Lokesh says:

                  Shantam talking in his sleep again.

                • satchit says:


                  Osho or Bhagwan is just a change of name. What else shall it be?

                  Around “Osho” I was never. I follow my energy. If I call him “Osho” or “Bhagwan” it is the same for me.

              • Arpana says:

                Shantam, you personify living in denial.

                Everything negative you see in others is always a description of you, to the power of ten.

              • satchit says:

                You don’t give freedom to others, Shantam. You want that they behave according to your will.

                Certainly disillusionment will follow this attitude.

                • Shantam prem says:

                  How many years you have spent around Osho? By Osho I don’t mean Bhagwan Shree.

                  Most of the esteemed gentlemen on this site know Osho only through gossip of others. They went their way from the time of Bhagwan.

                  At this level I feel Sheela is quite a tough nut and integrated being. She says always Bhagwan because she does not know Osho.

                • shantam prem says:

                  Shantam Prem says:

                  Re 18 April, 2019 at 7:37 pm:

                  Nobody has used satire and abuse based on the above post. Must be contemplating the difference between Bhagwan and Osho.

                  Basically, it should be taught in the Law Schools, “When a company or a person defaults the loans, best strategy is to change the name and say with spiritual seriousness, “Past is past. It is no more.”

                • kavita says:

                  “Most of the esteemed gentlemen on this site know Osho only through gossip of others. They went their way from the time of Bhagwan.”

                  Some not-so-gentlewomen also know him through gossips too!

                  Before this life there was his past life, then in this physical life, Rajneesh Jain, Acharya Shree,
                  so anyone who knew him then, they should be stuck with that particular identity.
                  So many identities! One OIF for each identity! Wonder if that is possible!

                  What if, now, Osho was physically alive, he would have a new name, he would be in some new place on this planet!

  31. Arpana says:

    I can entirely understand your bitterness, hatred and resentment of everyone who posts here because they are not such good Marxists as you, and hold opinions that differ from yours, but as regards the reply button, this is ridiculous.

    Has nothing to do with moderation or SD, it happens to everyone, including the moderator and/or SD.

    WordPress sets limits on the number of replies. You really are not being picked on, shut out, silenced. Your victim game is doing that.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Thank you for your automatic paternalism, Harpy, I see that the new scientific trend of giving lessons has infected you.

      But mathematical science also says you have to look for people, to coax as a child, younger than me, taking into account exceptions of course, using social science to measure the narrowness of young existential perspectives, deducible from the enthusiasm and attention with which they listen to themselves.

      • Arpana says:

        You clearly want to be offended, and if I have given you what you want, even if not intentionally. I am happy for you.

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          Harpy, another parameter to understand who comes here to offend, himself or others, is to read what they have to say about the topic in question. If you read among the comments you will find the list of posters; to search for your name go to straight on the podium.

          I made my attempt to understand what the article wanted to communicate, regardless of your foreseeable accusations of what I would have said.

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