What Is The Role Of Dead Masters? Shantam Prem poses the question…

Many people think I simply criticise  Osho´s Pune Resort Management all the time. Here is a different approach. 

One thing I appreciate about Osho Resort Management is their non-sentimental approach towards ‘Late Osho Jain’. They don´t sell beliefs in ‘dead men walking’, hence there is no sannyas initiation, there are no devotional songs. 

One can love this emotional and spiritual honesty. It is rare. 

Through these lines I wish to start a discussion: 
What is the role of deceased masters once they are gone? 
Is it possible in the 21st century to keep alive beliefs that people like Jesus are immortal? 
If so, there is no need for new players: one Jesus, one Mohammed, one Buddha is enough. They are the biggest wireless service providers, like Vodafone, O2, Jio!   

 

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196 Responses to What Is The Role Of Dead Masters? Shantam Prem poses the question…

  1. satyadeva says:

    Shantam asks, “Is it possible in the 21st century to keep alive beliefs that people like Jesus are immortal?”

    Well, of course it’s possible, look at all the hundreds of millions all over the world who cling on to such beliefs, as if their very lives depend on it (which, in a way, they do, as I suspect the root of belief in many such people is the fear of death).

    And how about this, from…yes, California?!
    http://janesdancinghands.activehosted.com/index.php?action=social&chash=a3f390d88e4c41f2747bfa2f1b5f87db.143&s=a4d653f9a12499731b907af3879d11f1

  2. anand yogi says:

    Welcome back, bhai!
    I was thinking that maybe you had finally left for Himalayas in search of experience at hands of holy representative of oldest profession in world with happy ending!

    For a brief moment it seemed maybe Scratchit had finally lifted your VIP crown by an impressively idiotic parroting of advaita lines, sannyas clichés and even important pronouncements about the state of Brexit!

    But no, thanks God, you are back and with your more than ample buttocks reclining splendidly on your computer chair and ejaculating wildly once more…Hari Om!

    Role of dead masters is to give detailed instructions to chosen few in messages received through mala as delivered by major player – not O2 but O1!

    Master`s disciples are like akashik call centre workers dispensing invaluable information to customers all over world (terms and conditions apply).

    Swami Bhorat already has own call centre, here is recording from earlier today:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2R5YUAPg0U

    Yahoo!

  3. satchit says:

    In my opinion, the reason for the non-sentimental approach is just to get more customers. Time is no more ripe for sannyas initiation or singing devotional songs.

  4. kavita says:

    “What is the role of deceased masters once they are gone?”

    According to me, this is totally an individual matter.

    Actually, I am not basically a Samadhi person, I felt an urge to visit the Samadhi on 11th December, 2008 so I went, bowed my head and the voice I heard then was saying, “Now you don’t need to come to this place”, so I stopped going to the Poona commune.

    This could also be my mind but then I thought, “Everything is the mind”, so I stuck to this. When friends would ask me why I don’t visit the commune I would say, “Because I don’t need an Aids test anymore!”

    Probably we mostly interpret such an inner voice as the Master!

    Later, when Big Prem died in her pyramid room on 11th December, 2012, a common friend of ours sneaked me into Big Prem’s room without any formalities and I was in her room for about 1/2 an hour.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      “a common friend of ours sneaked me into Big Prem’s room without any formalities”

      Kavita, are you sure you’re not Italian, or do you just have Italian friends?

  5. anandrahul says:

    I feel that O sannyasins who have been pushed outside the main playground need to understand that there were a few sannyasins I know who visited south India, post-Pune 2, who were able to shed the holy red robes and who had spiritual awakenings. They have shared their love and lessons on other platforms through their books, interviews and blogs.

    If a master is dead for you it does not mean that it is the end of search for truth. The world exists beyond OSHO.

    MOD:
    Anandrahul, your original post has been changed a bit to make it clearer. Does it read ok to you?

  6. anandrahul says:

    Thanks for the support, dear Mod.

    I just wanted to convey my feelings in the context of the title ‘Dead Master’.

    There are other sanghas where the Master is not in the body but in spite of this, seekers are able to imbibe the spirit of the teachings.

    Hope I am not being too direct or attacking. My intention has never been such.

    Love and regards.

    MOD:
    No problem, Anandrahul.

  7. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Perhaps we should clarify the meaning of ‘devotion.
    If it means “adherence to the spiritual and formal aspects of a cult or religion” (clear, SP? Not only formal aspects) then I could be honestly involved, emotions included, while I sing my gratitude, inspired by Osho’s presence, spirituality being not limited by the space-time phenomenon of reality.

    But, paradoxically, could not even adhering to the formal aspects of a religion be the first step to know the aspects worthy of spiritual inspiration, useful for one’s own growth?

    If Shantam entered the church and began to sing “In this life with you all I can do is dance” then perhaps he would begin to dance really, more and more involved and inspired by gratitude for the Master, finally discovering that a dance of gratitude was exactly what made the Master dance.

    Isn’t gratitude an aspect worthy of spiritual inspiration?
    Or:
    Is it a sign of spiritual evolution to stop feeling gratitude?

    • Arpana says:

      “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I’m persecuted whenever I’m contradicted.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson.

      • satyadeva says:

        Emerson – a great man whom I first came across at age 20, in a course on American Lit. He and Thoreau, mid-19th century ‘Transcendentalists’, inspired something in me at that age that few, if any, other writers managed.

        I made a point of visiting Walden Pond, Massachusetts, while travelling in the States, the place where Thoreau had lived for a while in isolation, close to Nature, writing a diary, a wonderful account of the experience, later published as ‘Walden’.

        P.S:
        Sorry, off-topic!

        • Arpana says:

          I always liked this:

          “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of a small mind.” (Emerson)

          • Arpana says:

            “Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I’m persecuted whenever I’m contradicted.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson.

            Well, you set the cat among the pigeons, didn’t you, Ralph Waldo Emerson!?!?

            Our two most egregriously self-deceiving, victim-type contributors have both had a tantrum because I shared the message you sent me. (The truth hurts).

            Oh dear. ✌

        • Arpana says:

          SD,
          I’ve just started to write a ‘memoir’ on books, my relationship with books and reading.

  8. shantam prem says:

    When readers mix the contents of the books in a non-consistent way, these big minds create well-crafted paper boats!

    Neo-Sannyas has become an expedition from Noah´s Ark to paper boats.

    • Arpana says:

      When Shantam mixes the contents of the books in a bullshit way, his small mind creates a flimsy paper boat!

      For Shantam, Neo-Sannyas has become an expedition from a place to get sex to paper boats.

    • satyadeva says:

      It would help to provide examples, Shantam, eg of mixing “the contents of the books in a non-consistent way”, otherwise this sort of statement tends to be just ‘words, words, words’, up-in-the-air, ungrounded.

      • shantam prem says:

        SD,
        Look at all the childish posts of Arpana where he uses words of others because the bookworm cannot elaborate logically in his own words. This is impact of words.

        From Osho´s books to Oshonews, there is only words, and many times followers have created the cocktail of words to protect their small interests.

        My last post was just a tease to Arpana for quoting Emerson. Such quotes create impression as if one is not small mind. Quoting Osho gives the impression as if one has earned the wisdom.

        Anyway, I will stay with the theme of the string during next posts if some impulse arises. Must say, Lokesh´s post is sensible and Kavita has shared her story in an innocent way.

        • Arpana says:

          Shantam,
          You are jealous.

          You are jealous because I quoted Emerson, just as you are jealous that we care more for what Osho says than for what you say.

        • satyadeva says:

          “Such quotes create impression as if one is not small mind. Quoting Osho gives the impression as if one has earned the wisdom.”

          That can be the case, Shantam, but not at all necessarily. Quotes can be a means of sharing, amongst other things, a sense of wonder at the clarity, insight, wisdom, humour or sheer ‘cleverness’ of another, or even of his/her foolishness, shallowness or bone-headed stupidity.

          Thus, your statement itself illustrates a certain narrow-mindededness, picking out one effect or symptom and trying to make it ‘universal’, to serve your own particular purpose.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

            Those of us who have inhaled deeply of the spiritual aroma of mighty Bhorat that hits you as soon as you disembark at airport do not need to read books!

            Many of our awakened ones and VIPs from Jullundur area who have travelled to West have become awakened by reading no more than simply a few copies of ‘Tokyo XXXX Girls’ with many pages heavily stuck together hidden inside copy of Govt. Grant Sahib and looking at pictures in Linda Goodman`s ‘Sun Signs’!

            This obsession with small-minded western baboons quoting Emerson makes them think they have earned experience!
            In fact, Swami Bhorat tells me that he actually saw Emerson in early 70s at Rainbow and he absolutely mashed his keyboard!

            It is perfectly correct, bhai, that you continue to speak out against followers who have, as you say, created the cocktail of words to protect their small interests!

            Fortunately for Osho`s vision and legacy, great souls such as you would never stoop so low!

            Yahoo!
            Hari Om!

            • Lokesh says:

              Yogi, thanks for your fun comments. Really funny even though I am a skinhead.

              Dropped acid one night and went to see Emerson, Lake and Palmer. They were fuckin’ awful.

        • Arpana says:

          Look at all the childish posts of Shantam where he uses self-aggrandising words to make himself believe he matters; and he has created the cocktail of words to protect his small interests, trying to give the impression as if he is not the small mind, as if he has wisdom.

  9. shantam prem says:

    Almost every day I notice Jehovah the Witness people standing at different parts of the city with their modern stands. I look at them and smile warmly.

    Last week, during Saturday, after silent sitting and sleeping in the church, on the way to some coffee I noticed another group of people promoting Christian literature produced in a very aesthetic way. Seeing appreciation in my eyes, a lady of around 28-30 years approached me and started explaining in well-qualified English. She asked my religion.

    I told her, “I am a Sikh who loves Christian values very much and am just coming out from the church.”
    She said, “It is fine but to be saved you must surrender to Jesus.”
    Someone like me who thinks his master is no more, will believe in Jesus´s aliveness, so I asked politely, “But Jesus has died long ago?”
    She must be used to such questions, so there came a coached answer, something like, “Yes, Jesus died as a body but rose with His spirit. That spirit is the saviour.”
    I asked her, “Have you studied Theology in the university?”
    “No, I have studied Biology and during this time I came across the spirit of Jesus. It has saved my life.”
    I smiled warmly with the intention to move on, but she insisted, “We have very short span of life. Death is on the way, surrender to Jesus is the only way to be saved.”

    I will be the last person to tell, “Hey, young lady, come out from your illusions.” I felt happy for her. She has found meaning in her life. She has her church and fellow-believers who support each other.

    It matters not what kind of Buddha one has, if there is a Sangham, Buddha is still alive.

    In my school books, there was a sentence, “Man is a social animal.”

    If beliefs create some kind of glue to join people together for some cause bigger than the personal space, I have all the regards and love. Human civilisation has evolved in this way in different ways around the world. Belief in Jesus has done wonders during last few centuries.

    • frank says:

      God, yeah.
      When it comes to religion,you got to show respectinnit?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBJwg2-wX0w

    • satyadeva says:

      Shantam, have you ever read ‘The Mustard Seed’, the 21 discourses on Jesus by ‘Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh’, in 1974? Given your apparent respect and even love for the Christian Church and for Osho, I suggest this would be essential reading for you, wouldn’t it?

      I realise you’re lonely, you miss belonging to a community, never mind about an intimate relationship, but as a result you tend very much to see spiritual issues through a veil of personal emotional sentiment, which is a guaranteed way to fail to see the truth.

      For one thing, who has told this young woman such nonsense as “surrender to Jesus is the only way to be saved”? “Saved” from what, by the way? Eternal damnation (aka death)? What’s so great about believing such priest-powered crap? And anyway, isn’t mere belief only for fools?

      As ‘Bhagwan’ said in ‘The Mustard Seed’, in the final discourse, “I don’t want you to become Christians – that is useless, that is a lie.”

      Yes, I expect you know it’s garbage but for you, who cares as long as it ‘brings people together’? Is that what you’ve come to after several decades of sannyas? No wonder you’re far away from any sort of sannyas community, except the one-dimensional cyberspace versions!

      Look, at one level it’s ok to be a Christian, as it can solve one or two existential dilemmas, eg the fear of death’ and ‘what does it all mean?’ – and, as you say, you get nice, friendly community support from it, and not necessarily only on Sundays.

      A friend of mine from very early childhood onwards ‘got’ Christianity around 18 years old after a terrible mid-teenage crisis and breakdown, transforming his life, eventually becoming a minister of a Christian sect, and he is one of the happiest people I know.

      But although all that has its place in evolutionary terms, it’s very far from what you were supposed to be getting into when you arrived in the Pune commune, isn’t it? Perhaps, for you, it isn’t….

    • satchit says:

      Don’t let yourself be distracted by others, Shantam.

      You are perfectly right. If happiness is there, it is enough.
      It is not a question of Osho, Jesus or somebody else.
      If your inner Buddha is alive, the Sangham is everywhere.

      • satyadeva says:

        Satchit, isn’t there a difference between one’s “inner Buddha” being “alive” and taking a tranquillising placebo like a belief in a ‘saviour’ – a mere BELIEF, for, er, ‘God’s’ sake?!

        • anand yogi says:

          Perfectly correct, Satchit!
          Jevovah’s the Witnesses are fulfilling Osho`s dream by simply being the witness!

          And if Shantam acheives enlidlment falling asleep in local church it is the highlight of Osho`s legacy, certainly!

          Yahoo!
          Hari Om!

        • satchit says:

          Osho has also the ‘saviour’ concept, maybe a bit hidden. What is the need of the “new man” if the world shall not be saved?

          • satyadeva says:

            No doubt some people think of Osho in this way, Satchit, but, apart from the extraordinary gift of his living presence, his effort was to inspire us to be responsible enough to search wholeheartedly within, first for authenticity, then for ‘God’ – in other words, to ‘grow up’; while the Christians think all they have to do is to “believe in” Jesus, follow a guilt-drenched moral code and they’ll be just fine, “saved” – childish really.

            • satchit says:

              “Childish”, for my taste, is an attitude that sannyasins have, thinking they are better than others, SD.

              Fact is: Belief can make oneself centered and whole.

              Belief is not always wrong, even if the mind believes it. LOL

              • frank says:

                To believe is to know you believe, and to know you believe is not to believe.

              • satyadeva says:

                Not all sannyasins have such an attitude, Satchit. Although I detest that as well in those that do, by the way.

                As for the benefits of belief, well, it depends on the belief and who holds it, doesn’t it? You might say that ‘believing in oneself’ has to be highly desirable, but surely not if the person concerned is conceited, full of their own self-importance and with significant narcissistic tendencies? Like a few politicians, for instance.

                Sure, a person won’t get very far out there in the world or in any activity at all if he/she doesn’t believe they can ‘succeed’, but you seem to avoid the main point here, which is that belief, in psycho-spiritual terms, is the ‘booby prize’, it very easily stops a person searching, imagining they’ve already got the solution, a nice ‘comfort blanket’ rather than the truth.

                I’d have thought you, as a sannyasin, would find that pretty blindingly obvious.

                • frank says:

                  To believe is not to know.
                  To know you believe is not to believe.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Agree with the first line, yes. Not sure about the second…maybe…Could you elucidate further, please, Frank?

                • frank says:

                  Hi SD,
                  The first one:
                  “To believe is to know you believe, and to know you believe is not to believe.’
                  was from Jean-Paul Sartre.

                  “To believe is not to know.
                  To know you believe is not to believe”
                  was an attempted riff on it.

                  “To know you believe is not to believe” means, I guess, that any self-reflection/self-awareness introduced to belief will cause doubt, thereby destroying the belief.

                • satchit says:

                  Okay, SD, I see what you want to tell me, that believing in Jesus you get the ‘booby prize’ and with Osho not.

                  Btw, re ‘sannyasin’: I don’t know if I’m a sannyasin or not. Are you a sannyasin?

                • satyadeva says:

                  Only at weekends and public holidays, Satchit.

                • anand yogi says:

                  Again, the ignorant western baboons philosophise with philosophical philosophies that are nothing but mind!

                  Firstly, they attempt to show that they have earned wisdom by quoting fuckin` awful prog-rockers from early 70s!

                  Then the alcoholic, cynical dog Frank, who has drunk large amounts of beer and urinated lengthily on our holy shrines for too long, quotes cocktail of words from discredited, chain-smoking, speed-freak existentialist to protect his small interests!

                  This is impact of words!

                  Childish bookworms must realise all is needed is to read ‘Watchtower’, ‘Awake’ and ‘Kinky Kyoto XXXX’ and get down to local Kingdom Hall with Shantam and Scratchit, or fall asleep in local church!

                  True followers who know how religions evolve and are constantly aware of spiritual aroma emanating from pair of 400 year-old unchanged underwear know what they believe!

                  Thus belief in Jesus, which has done wonders for centuries, can continue as ultimate realisation of Osho`s vision!

                  Yahoo!
                  Hari Om!
                  Amen!

              • Arpana says:

                You’re happy with thinking you’re better than sannyasins who think they are better than those who are not sannyasins, eh, Satchit?

                • anand yogi says:

                  Certainly Shantambhai is perfectly happy accepting booby prize!
                  During pumping phase (88-90) he was accepting booby prizes from Christian gora girls at every opportunity!

                  Belief in Christian values has worked wonders with ripe mangoes falling from tree into sticky hands of believer in Guru Palak with banana lassi squelching in holy underwear!

                  Hari Om!
                  Bom Jesus!

                • satchit says:

                  Arpana, your question is too complicated for my simple mind.

                  Maybe you try again?

                • Arpana says:

                  @Satchit
                  Oh dear. As I wrote the post I did worry this might be over your head. (0*_*0)

  10. anandrahul says:

    The above posts involving personal attacks on the public forum themselves prove that ‘The role of Dead Masters’ can never be ignored.

    The Master used to attack other religions and their followers and now the sannyasins are cathartic among themselves. Enjoy!

    • swami anand anubodh says:

      AN,
      The frequent ‘skirmishes’ you see on Sannyasnews are only ever ‘handbags’*.

      *Handbags, in British slang a fight where the protagonists are unable or unwilling to seriously hurt each other, is commonly referred to as a handbag fight, in reference to the way girls fight by hitting each other with their handbags.

    • kavita says:

      “The Master used to attack other religions and their followers and now the sannyasins are cathartic among themselves.” -

      Are you trying to say, AR, that now the sannyasins have themselves become a religion & are attacking each other?!

      • anandrahul says:

        Yes, Kavita ji,
        I clearly feel that neo-sannyasins, those who use the term ‘O sannyasins’, in present times have themselves become an organised religion. I see lot of verbal attacks and angry vocabulary used by three contributors on this page though I consider this forum to be the most transparent one.

        Is this ‘The Way Of The Heart’?

        • kavita says:

          AR, you say, “I see lot of verbal attacks and angry vocabulary used by three contributors on this page though I consider this forum to be the most transparent one.”

          Are you saying this transparency should be filtered?

          Btw, what is ‘The Way Of The Heart’?

          • anandrahul says:

            The transparency is the most remarkable feature here.

            Regarding ‘The Way Of The Heart’, it is the title of a video shoot in Rajneeshpuram, often shown in Delhi circles of sannyasins, and also a song composition by OSHO musicians. Kavita ji, I am sure you must have heard this piece of creativity.

            • kavita says:

              So, AR, well then, in this Delhi circle of sannyasins haven’t you heard that ‘The Way Of The Heart’ is not an easy way?!

              • anandrahul says:

                I shall reply to your post but would also like to know how tough has been this way for you. Has it left a bitter taste or a more compassionate heart?

                • kavita says:

                  AR, my father always encouraged me to taste bitter food; it was difficult in the beginning but I slowly started enjoying it.

                  Tastewise, I enjoy savoury of all cuisines so I am ok with SN, it is more of a savoury with bitter garnish!

  11. anandrahul says:

    I was in the city of Vrindavan, the playground of Krishna, this Holi, travelling with my aged mother and I found the kirtan at Iskcon, various other temples of Bankey Bihari (a playful form of Krishna) alive in Krishna bhakts.

    Why is it that not more than after 10 years after the passing away of the master in Pune, the movement hit its lowest of lows for power and money control versus the marble kissers?

    • anand yogi says:

      Perfectly correct, Anandrahul!
      The alcoholic baboons in Pune have destroyed opportunity for religious hanky-panky, now found, as you clearly point out, only in hanky-panky Bankey Bihari!

      Osho movement could learn much from Iskcon!* They suffered thousands of child-abuse and buggery cases and convictions worldwide yet still they manage to pull in customers for their singalongs!

      Is it not a testament to the strength of the religions that have worked wonders in the past centuries and the intelligence of their followers who realise that truth is available by falling asleep in churches and temples with like-minded community and waking up with spiritual senior`s dick up ass?

      Yahoo!
      Hari Om!
      Hare Krishna!

      MOD:
      *Veet Francesco has provided this link: http://www.iskcon.org/ (where Tony Blair seems to think it’s all about “belief” – quel surpris!).

  12. anandrahul says:

    Dear Yogi,
    Your comments make me feel goosebumps in my otherwise protruding Buddha belly.

    Can some contributors confirm that I shall not be looked upon by suspicion by the guards at the Otherwise Gateless Gate if I plan to visit the Resort?

    • anand yogi says:

      Anandrahul,

      Swami Bhorat sends his blessings!
      And says: “Don`t be worried!”

      There will be no problem, but if you have problem with guards call Swami Ali @ Chernobyl Electroshock Hospital Outpatients Dept.
      Playa Del Locos
      Mexico.

      He will come immediately and put foot in guard`s ass!

      If guard is over 70 and mentally or physically infirm, Swami Ali will use specialist martial arts techniques to give him good kicking!

      Yahoo!
      Hari Om!

    • shantam prem says:

      Anandrahul,
      Some biographical notes about you?
      You like transparency so time to show a bit of transparency!

      • anandrahul says:

        Dear Shantam Bhai,
        My biographical notes won’t be of any interest to anyone because I have never been a part of any ‘Building Utopia’ project in history.
        Nor shall I be interviewed on ‘Love OSHO’ podcasts.

        • shantam prem says:

          This is well thought yet intelligently sharp reply.

          ‘Love Osho Podcasts’ – People there give a clear message: If you are not around living Osho you will be punished by listening to the glorified past.

  13. Bong says:

    Bong appetit! ;)

    I have been very busy listening to Osho recently. His words are as poignant as they are essential.

    Bong is very much alive!

  14. shantam prem says:

    I am sure no system asks, post-death, “Who is your Messiah? Name of your master, please?” Even on the earth, who cares, other than walls of sects and cults?!

    On one level, my respect is growing more and more for China and its roots. Implantation of one Indian dead man´s name in China was exploitation of ignorance. It will be natural justice if China uproots foreign beliefs totally and completely.

    • satyadeva says:

      Doesn’t this ‘interest’ of yours in China, Shantam, arise from the parallels you think you see between that situation and ‘foreigners’ having taken over the Pune ashram? Nothing new from you then, it’s still the ‘same old same old’, isn’t it?

      But why choose to support typical authoritarian harrassment and worse from the Chinese authorities?
      Why shouldn’t any people anywhere have the opportunity to be exposed to something new and life-affirming?
      Has your personal disillusionment reached the stage where you want to deny people the chance of experiencing something that once inspired you?

      These comments of yours would appear to be born of self-ish misery masquerading as morally serious political-cum-philosophical analysis. Hence, delusion on several levels.

      • shantam prem says:

        Show me one spiritualist who is not delusional!

        Delusionals are the suppliers as well as the customers!

        • satyadeva says:

          Shantam, there are delusions and delusions…little ones, medium-sized ones – and bloody great huge ones. I’m afraid that too often yours are filed in the latter category!

          Btw, “spiritualist” is the wrong term (I presume), it means someone who’s involved in trying to contact the ‘spirits’ of the dead, ghosts etc. Thus, most ironically, I agree with your first statement!

          However, if you mean something different then your homework for today is to find an alternative word for whoever it is that you have in mind.

          • anand yogi says:

            Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

            You are certainly a political cum philosopher as your ejaculations all over cyberspace have continually proved!

            Certainly everyone should follow all great old civilisations like China and follow your advice and uproot foreign beliefs!

            Also in Germany, implantation of one Indian on unemployment register is exploitation of ignorance. It will be natural justice if Germany uproots it completely!

            Hari Om!
            Yahoo!

            MOD:
            Frank, is second parag. ok? (Wasn’t sure what you meant so added “should”)?

  15. satchit says:

    “…keep alive beliefs that people like Jesus are immortal?”

    Immortality is not a belief but an experience.

    The belief can create the hunger for the experience, but can also avoid the experience.

    • Arpana says:

      “Immortality is not a belief but an experience.”

      Which you know how, Scratchit???

      • satchit says:

        How, Arpinski ???

        Never had a small satori?
        It’s the ABC of Sannyas to find immortality.

        But don’t mix it with booby prize people like El Loco find in chemicals!

        • Arpana says:

          Scratchit.
          We are not playing table tennis you know!!!

        • Arpana says:

          Phooey.

          I’ve done considerably better than a mere small satori; and the issue of immortality never came into it.

          Stop making it up as you go along, Scratchit.

          【☯】‿【☯】

          • satchit says:

            There are different kinds of immortalities, Arpanski.

            Lately I saw a movie called ‘The Keeper’ about German football player Bert Trautmann. Will be released next weekend in UK.

            Beautiful movie. If you have time, enjoy it.

            • Arpana says:

              How do you know there are different kinds of immoralities, Satchit?

            • satyadeva says:

              Thanks for mentioning this, Satchit, I’ll probably go and see it.

              Trautmann was an extraordinary character, an ex-Nazi and a superb goalkeeper who became a national hero in the UK, one of the first ‘real-life heroes’ I became aware of, playing on with a broken neck in the Cup Final, in those far-off days of 1950s black-and-white tv.

              • anand yogi says:

                Perfectly correct, Scratchit!

                The ABC of Sannyas is certainly immorality! Immorality is the very basis of satori!
                And not just one kind, but of all different kinds, too!

                And don`t be worried about size of your satori! Remember it is not size that matters but how you use it!

                Scratchit is also very much like Bert Trautmann – heroically playing on like only German in English SN Cup Final whilst suffering from broken neck and certain brain damage!

                Yahoo!
                Hari Om!

              • satchit says:

                Yes, SD, I think it is worth watching it.

                Maybe Arps will enjoy more the love story part in it.

                The German director is Marcus H. Rosenmüller, the same guy that directed ‘Summer In Orange’, a culture clash movie that happened between sannyasins and ordinary Bavarian citizens.

  16. Prem Ritvik says:

    They have no role. Have they not done enough when they were alive?

    If they had any role, and they were honest, they would reveal role of the previous masters, and so on and so forth; we would be knowing of every enlightened person playing role post-death to the first conscious race of apes.

    And then we can ask for this whole maddening crowd to clear and create space for the new. Therefore even if they have any role to play, they sensibly should choose not to, and let the new unrepeatable appear.

    • satyadeva says:

      That’s an interesting post, Ritvik, although surely a master’s death doesn’t necessarily imply that there’s no longer any value in their teachings?

      I suspect Shantam’s title question was meant to focus on the role of a dead master from the disciple’s/friend’s side, ie to question what practical significance a dead master has, might have or should ideally have for his/her people. (Perhaps Shantam can clarify this for us?).

      If none, then why do you still use a sannyasin name, for instance?

      • Prem Ritvik says:

        Teachings are invaluable. That’s what I said when I pointed out that they have done enough in their lives. They are invaluable to anyone they are effective for. Mostly, if walked on, experimented with properly, one can test if the teaching has worked out, or whether to move to another option.

        I want to make it clear that one must not think of things as if the dead messengers of divine, the passed away masters, the once walking incarnations of God, should be messed around with one’s present as if someone who has left the body is using some sort of force to control your present.

        No, these beings were most ordinary, and you are not special. To go against Nature and help you?! That breaks natural laws, makes you special. What cruelty it would be on part of a master!

        As for the name I have used, it serves two things:
        One, it reminds me to be loving, which I am not very much. I am more logical kind. More Ritvik than Prem. Someday I may be more Prem than Ritvik and someday move between both.
        Second, to break connection with the stupid past. I am experimenting with a teaching of Osho.

        Once a Christian friend of mine asked me, “Do you love Osho baba?”
        I answered (being ’95 born) “The man is dead.” What is her use of loving Jesus Christ? She could love those around who are living. And that would be following or at least experimenting with a teaching of Jesus.

        Once I was at a funeral of a friend’s mother who died from cancer. There is a lot of theatrical drama the priests organise. This includes breaking a pot of “sacred” water. This device serves as a breaking extreme point for mind and makes people cry, like the dramatic climax of a movie. And then the priest, who has never known the woman, asked others to touch the feet of “Mata”! And people proceeded to do so! Touch the feet of a dead body?! What is the point? But the people, taken by the climactic scene, did it. Meanwhile, I saw this friend who was so courageous, smiling and greeting as ever, whose mother had died…

        And I touched his feet, saying, “I am touching the feet of your mother through you, the courage your mother has given you (this teaching or transfer or bringing up, still alive in you, since if I was at your position, I could not have managed with such grace).”

        The immortalisation of any master or Messiah is like touching the feet of a corpse. However beautiful it is, corpse is a corpse. And you miss out the life around. To be human is enough. To sustain all these religions, you really need to love a Jesus Christ, possibly kill those who love someone else, and not love others, which he actually said.

        Hypocrisy.

        The masters are gone, and for good, as mentioned in my previous comment, gone completely.

        The teachings are to be followed and a master in self to be discovered, not to love the dead, but to spread the love while alive, which the dead said when they were living.

        “Being human is enough.” (Osho)

        • satyadeva says:

          What you say here re masters simply ‘disappearing’, as it were, sounds fair enough to me, Ritvik, although I wouldn’t know, of course.

          But I have one contradictory point:
          Alive masters have said that when people die they go inside those that truly love them. I suspect this is the case, including from my own limited experience.

          No doubt there’s plenty of room for personal delusion and wish fulfilment with this, eg imagining private ‘messages’ transmitted from the dead master, but nevertheless I trust those teachers who’ve made a point of stating it.

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            Yes,
            “In my sannyasins, you will find the taste of the blessed one, the taste of Bhagwan.”
            As one may practise a path, they may develop the receptivity, and hence the flavour may arise for the blessed one who taught the path.

            Some flavour per path. Flavour of Buddha, flavour of Jesus, flavour of Osho…I agree. Some sort of help in some form somewhere.

            But things have been more destructive, as the gap in time increases, and the systems left behind by the masters grow political and wage war. Therefore, I felt that it’s way better to let everyone be in peace, disappear forever.

            Those who have felt the flavour arise in them, who have felt the presence or love of those gone away, will not ask questions as in discussion. You have actually, with this, opened rhe gate to the answer,

            If it is there, it has to be experienced oneself. My approach, as from the first comment, is very scientific. Second, I sincerely feel that it cannot happen randomly, it is path-dependent. Third, I see so much delusion, and crime committed over the same.

            But there is a possibility, for those who are sincere seekers on a path, to have something of the master. The flavour itself is a help.

            • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

              Some of the Art of Embodyment.
              Bhagawati found it on the web and shared it.
              I enjoyed to watch it.
              Maybe you too, Prem Ritvik, who is new on ´stage´?

              https://youtu.be/4e91LFMddWM

              All of you ´decipher specialists´ here would enjoy that too?

              Madhu

              • Prem Ritvik says:

                Hello Madhu,
                I saw the performance, it is extremely well choreographed. Some genius goes in creating these things.

                I will call this psychological demonstration of a split mind put through movements.

                And I am not “new” on stage, I am Fresh on stage. New becomes old then withers. Fresh has possibility to remain fresh. I do not promise to stay here, however. Fresh remains fresh remains fresh and vanishes!

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            Added perspective:
            The master has nothing to do, cannot do by natural laws, but as one comes closer to the path, merges with it, “Diksha (merging of consciousness with master)” happens. Bodhichitta happens, one is connected to Buddha, Oshochitta happens, as if emptiness has taken the seat of your consciousness.

            Oshochitta will be different due to the difference in path, it will include celebration along with meditation. The flavour will happen. Still, the sannyasin, with his sincerity, is responsible for this. Yet the master does nothing as, I stick to the point, he cannot, and should not. The sitting of master in consciousness (since consciousness is eternal), the happening of Diksha, entirely depends on disciple’s receptivity towards teachings.

            Now many of those who live in their body have said that others are helping and they will help post-leaving their body, which is a lie, given out of compassion, since they may see that above fact is not totally relatable to many, or, that lie, for the moment will keep things ongoing for the well-being.

            We can see the case of Jiddu Krishnamurti, who spoke things just this way, eg “Forget about having a master after his death, you do not even need one when you are alive.” But what purpose could this truth serve? Almost none. While others, out of compassion, said, “We will be there beyond death”, some said,”We will take another birth for you”, and Abrahmic patriarchs crossed the line through many so-called miracles! But in broad daylight, all seems to have been done out of compassion, to bring some effect, or at least courage to the disciple.

            For many, just to feel that the master is helping even now can increase their receptivity, which may open the doors for consciousness to transform, which is actual help.

            Taking this path is not necessary, but easy, and hence can be chosen.

            So I conclude that the disciple is on his own to increase his receptivity, so the consciousness may take its seat. This alone is the whole help. Nothing supernatural, beyond Nature.

            The dead masters left whatever they could leave on the path to increase receptivity when they were alive, and they left. Since the path is fabricated by them, receiving the path totally will result in receiving the associated consciousness of the master.

            A sannyasin has increased potential for Oshochitta (the flavour of the blessed one, the help towards enlightenment) than a non-sannyasin. And a sincere sannyasin more than a not so sincere one.

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Ciao, Prem Ritvik,
              Forgive Shantam for his suspicion you were a “fake”, according to the criteria of Facebook, even if now you gave him the certainty to consider you a “parrot”; but you are not alone here.

              I agree with you that the sannyasin or a disciple in general contradicts the teaching of the Master if he expresses his receptivity by contemplating a dead body or touching his now cold feet. But it would be a paradox to detect such a fetishism for someone like Osho, who invited us to celebrate his passing as we know, it would be too big a twist on his teaching.

              If a Master is such because he has made available his body and his life to share Love, each one in his particular way and grace, this means that between offering the other cheek and holding a sword there are endless alternatives.

              If also for you Oshochitta means rebellion, I believe that if someone in the name of the Master has the power to deceive new sannyasins with small and imperceptible twists your receptivity would make you distinguish between a slap and a caress, immediately seeking the hilt of the sword.

              Trusting in your receptivity, in what place do you find it easier for Osho consciousness to take its seat in people, Pune or Delhi?

              • Prem Ritvik says:

                Dear Francesco,
                First, I want you to ask yourself, very gently, about why do you need to ask for me to forgive Shantam?

                If we could meet, I would have posed this question differently, but often when writing on an online thread our comments can appear something which they might have been otherwise when added with tone and body language. A lot of care is to be taken in writing here.

                Shantam has been a silent man, he has not replied to any of my analysis, he only wrote with respect to the credibility of my identity. He has not mailed me about meeting me anywhere. Looks like he has really transcended into silence.

                Why do you bother about him? He is higher in silence. Would you like to be in silence? Find a moment, go there.

                Also, I am alone. I protect my aloneness.

                Coming to your question: Celebrating Osho’s death includes celebration, a teaching, taking place among sannyasins before he died, at the time of his death and afterwards. His death was a time to put teaching into intense presence.

                Oshochitta is just Bodhichitta plus celebration. A new flavour. Rebellion may be a side effect to it. Why unnecessarily rebel? But if you have become seat of Oshochitta, Diksha has happened, the consciousness has been mirrored, emptiness with celebration has happened and you have become creative; then any creativity has rebellion as side-effect. You create a new lifestyle, the traditions are rebelled against, automatically. Your life, if it becomes creative, is bound to become rebellious. It is just a side-effect.

                Now, to answer your next question, I will rather saym in which place is the path more present and in which place only the hints of footprints are left. It is of immense help to be in Pune, since the footprints are going to be much more fresh. But there is evidence that during the life of Osho or Buddha, there are people who were not receptive at all, even with the enlightened ones present in their body. And it is also possible that somebody may be so much receptive that he takes up the hints and the path is revealed, anywhere.

                So being in Pune, the path is more revealed; in Delhi, or elsewhere, not so much. But it depends much more on disciple’s receptivity, sensitivity and sincerity towards path. Even hints can be enough for such a disciple in New Delhi after Osho left his body, than for a disciple living close to Osho during his active years.

                • Dear Prem Ritvik,
                  Thank you for your answer.
                  The theme is to distinguish between the “freedom of” and “freedom from”, and also between rebel and libertine.
                  I just wanted to be nice in case our friend Shantam’s unfriendly attitude intimidated you.

                  A kindness that intended to reward your affirmative approach, which in a post-modern era (the Market decides the price of everything, everything has value if the Market decides) is not so common in the younger generations atomized by the Web.

                  Here, often struggles occur precisely on the interpretation of the freedom of expression that often coincides, for somebody, with the freedom to offend (look at how Frank recently used, not only with me, the words of an old, sour spinster).

                  It seemed to me that a recurring pattern here was to use the iconoclasm of a politically incorrect Master to impose no limit to good education (netiquette). Things have continued until today thanks to a dozen long-standing cynical commentators who rarely contributed with any sincere and passionate articles.

                  Then there were the many contributions of proactive people like you who for a time agreed to share their ideas, visions and feelings with what they believed to be their Sangha, until perhaps they got tired of the game: playing the role of the idiot of the village to provoke the only senile pleasure left to some old fart who writes here.

                  When things were about to degenerate, because some newcomers rebelled against the well-tested game between the stiff upper lip caryatids, and started using the same libertine language, the presence of Big P (founder and editorial manager of SN) succeeded with his charisma to dampen tensions.

                  Now, without him, who also supervised the work of the MOD, problems arise, because not everyone knows how to give limits to themselves, in fact someone continues to look for new living Masters and new paths for the ambivalence not yet resolved with the father figure embodied by the old guy (Osho).

                  On this site, kindness with some old carrion does not pay, and if you want peace you must be ready for war (Si vis pacem, para bellum), if you agree that ‘pacifism’ and ‘non-violence’ are very different things.

                  Hug.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Hello Veet,
                  I accept the hug if it is without expectations.

                  I do not see why anyone should take Sannyas News too seriously. Everyone active here is supposed to see same fate as the founder himself someday. I am not serious about this website and I am not responsible for its upkeep, I am here to have fun. Those of whom you talk, “visionaries” like me, seem to me to be people with too many expectations. I am the mud of the earth.

                  SN may also die sometime. Great corporations die, great visions are at danger of becoming impotent over centuries. But when one see the death of self, one does not mourn losing toys, one mourns and goes on to search the objective of being, a conscious drop of morning dew no longer wonders about what type of surface or plant it is on.

                  What use is it if I would have come in the initial days of SN, or last days, or after its collapse? Now I am here to have fun.

                  I am not concerned about SN or the present generation. I am concerned if my movement is the movement of fun for me or not!

        • shantam prem says:

          Prem Ritvik,
          You are ’95 born, just 23 or 24, right?
          Let me find you at facebook.
          If I can’t it means you are fake.

          • Prem Ritvik says:

            Hi Shantam
            If you are safekeeping for security, all right:
            https://www.facebook.com/ritvik.pandey.9

            You might have found my statement about Osho, “the man is dead”, offensive. I could have said Mahaparinirvana to my Christian friend. What would she have understood? And what do I actually understand? I feel Nirvana or Mahaparinirvana are words better kept for domains of those who have experienced previous births or reincarnation. Actually, only then could one realise that such a thing can also happen! Before that, there is just ordinary death.

            I like how Taoist wholeness puts it, it’s simple, not telling a lot, but so simple: A man who has lived wholly dies wholly. How Osho often put undividedness, how he always said he was just an ordinary person. I can, as long as I’ve personally not experienced past lives, put his leaving body as an ordinary death! Perhaps most ordinary death! He lived so wholly and he dies so wholly, what is the need to return? Whether incarnations happen or not, the need is exhausted.

            It is easy to know when one is 23, that one will die, and sometimes, come to a site for a visit.

            You can come to visit me personally, since I am at present am working very close to Dwarka Sector 10 metro station, almost any day.

            Come, let’s party. Let’s celebrate. Even if you kick me out after this, still come.

            For email: mostordinaryperson@gmail.com

            • kavita says:

              Prem Ritvik, you are a very young man and you sound as though you lived many lives!

              Please tell us about your journey, since I see that you are very literally expressive. Would be enlightening to know.

              Thank you for bringing freshness here on SN.

              • Prem Ritvik says:

                Hello Kavita,
                I am very ordinary. You can come and meet me, you will find a very ordinary person, doing very ordinary things, on a very ordinary day!

                There is nothing special about my journey either, I ended up in the lap of Osho’s presence through contemplation (the way of intelligence and not of heart, which I could see when I discovered him). Krishna also has similar presence for me. He is also whole and contradictory.

                You can come and see me, I like to meet people in their physical presence.

                We can have moments of celebration with us, but it’s wise not to have expectations!

                As for my being young – not that I am young – the body I house has not aged much yet. The body has its demands, in this age, like any ordinary body, it calls for sex. I enjoy my body and I try to take care of it. I act the age of my body.

                Once I was talking about grace to someone, and I told that person that grace is attained when mental age and physical age match. A child is inevitably graceful, he cannot hold to anything as nothing has arrived. I proceeded to say that in the West the youth is generally held on to forcefully, that old age is not graceful since mind has grabbed onto an age too young for the body.

                In the East, the youth does not properly take root so properly since the mental age may exceed the body’s due to lack of facilities to express youth, and societal expectations. So the people know how to carry themselves in their old age, it can have its own beauty, but they miss out on youth. You might have heard Osho talk about this too: “In the East old age is respected”. I am in love with grace.

                SN can be a platform to act out a revolution, or at least keep informed of news. But for some it may develop into a well, a habitat of mind to just jump around, in a circle, as if there are walls. This can become dull. Freshness may or may not be there, but when I read some answers here, and the language, I just have to say that many masters have stressed being graceful.

                Why miss that dimension out? Truth and love, put without grace is all too animalistic.

                • kavita says:

                  Hello Prem Ritvik,

                  First of all, thank you for you response without any clause attached!

                  This kind ordinariness of yours is a global rarity among youth.

                  I know our journey is not special but they are unique; it’s mostly interesting to hear/read about this.

                  Wonder if grace can be forced either, whether on SN or any place! Sometimes I think & feel, just like beauty, grace too is in the eyes of the beholder!

                  “You can come and see me, I like to meet people in their physical presence. We can have moments of celebration with us, but it’s wise not to have expectations!” Now that is contradictory, seems there is some Krishna in you too!

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  I am in Prem with your name Kavita. Who gave you that, was it Osho? :)

                • kavita says:

                  PR, my father named me Kavita as he told me I am his live poetry!

                  My sannyas name is Deva Dilruba!

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Deva Dilruba,
                  Kavita!
                  I have seen fame, power, money, felt how anyone who holds three to maximum feels, how useless so called useful things are. I have ventured into science, reduced humans to atoms and molecules and discovered how insignificant I am in the array of time stretching billions of years over blanket of infinite space. I dipped into social service to discover it’s unintelligence.

                  But one day I discovered sorrow. And just afterwards Nietzsche and Nihilism. I did not bath or eat, I grew thinner, sorrowful, energy less. Being a debator, I debated both sides of topic and found Nihilism right. My college exams were nearing and I had done nothing. I had no fear of them, only sorrow in a shrunken heart. The sorrow of a winner, the sorrow of a debator. I read Geeta at that time, which can give tides of devotion to the bearer.

                  Of the three paths described, the path of bhakti (celebration or love) is focussed by ISCKON. I enjoyed it, but found people to be unintelligent. Before this I had also been with Moonies, and the same thing. Out of karma yoga, Gyan yoga (path of intelligence) and bhakti yoga (path of love), it was Gyan yoga which was more natural to me.

                  My nanaji was there in Pune when Osho left the body. Because of him, my mother knew Osho, loved him, but called him a dangerous man.

                  It was a time when I was browsing through scriptures in home when my mother told me to listen to Osho. She did not know I was so thirsty that I will start experiments altogether. I listened, and I enjoyed!

                  Here was a man who enjoyed debates! A man who could with words express silence! He was a debater too, way superior than me, and I bowed down. I had found a funny man, so vast, so intelligent and so recent!

                  Osho is not a man for me to follow, but a well for me to quench my thirst. He is my ordinary water. My tasteless water. He will be red when he will flow as blood in my body.

                • kavita says:

                  Ritvik, on behalf of SN I invite you to write articles for discussion/debate.

                  You seem to be a busy man, since you are working, you can write when time permits and you can send this to SN editor/moderators for approval & publishing.

                  Maybe you can write on your life experiences of Osho experiments you mentioned, also current topics which are worth discussing /debating on SN.

                  You can see for yourself if you enjoy this & if you wish to continue writing.

                  MOD:
                  Ritvik’s already agreed to write a few things, Kavita – ten altogether, he says! And in the last couple of days he’s sent three, one of which will be put up today.

                • kavita says:

                  MOD – that sounds great!

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Dilruba,
                  Which meditator in the world is ever busy?

                  I am free all the time and sometimes when someone asks something like “Can you come?” I say “No”. They ask “Why? Are you busy?” I say “I am free, but I will not come”. I am a free man! I am free to write these articles!

                  As for worth, I have left it to the Mod team, and they are free to publish or reject them, because it’s a free team! And I believe this is a free platform.

                  I accept your request, Dilruba, and will write my next article on an experiment I did.

                • kavita says:

                  Ritvik, I heard Osho say to seekers ( don’t remember the exact words though): “Don’t make meditation your ego.”

                  Good to know you are going to share your articles on SN.

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  Kavita, I accept my fault.

                  Now there are few things I can tell you.
                  Do you have any email id I can mail to?

                • kavita says:

                  PR, it’s not a fault, we can remind each other about such in our travelling.

                  I have emailed you.

                • kavita says:

                  P.S:
                  In case you didn’t know, you can also create an account on caravanserai to communicate with SN members – http://sannyasnews.org/now/now/

                • Prem Ritvik says:

                  I did not mean about a fault in relation to mentioned situation, but your mentioning reminds me of a moment when I walked between sannyasins.

                  There was still some ego I had because of sharp enough intelligence for automatic sannyas to have taken place in me, and thereafter my discovery of Osho. It engendered a feeling of some specialness among the normal crowd which I could not see until I rediscovered my ordinary setting among the background of sannyasins.

                  I did not feel good that day, I was not unique, but Osho’s extended family served its purpose! Not a fault, but ego is fault. I accept that.

                • kavita says:

                  Thank you for this sharing, PR.

                  By ”Osho’s extended family” who exactly do you mean by this (in case it’s ok with you to share)?

  17. shantam prem says:

    Shantam´s articles are not about Shantam.

    It will be nice if others do some effort. Those who can write reactive comments can write articles too. If someone has hesitation to start an article, I am willing to offer tips and be the co-author.

    And second point:
    Sannyas News is not the only platform. I do regular writing at facebook, and from time to time post my thought videos at youtube.

    Someone can object, “It makes no difference, such a small audience.” So what, who is Ed Sheeran in this line?

    MOD:
    SN admin agrees with the first point here as in the nearly 4 and 1/2 months since SN restarted following the tributes to Parmartha, only Shantam (5 or 6 times) and Lokesh (once) have contributed articles or even ideas for discussion (apart from Anubodh’s suggestion to revisit articles of past years).

    • Arpana says:

      Shantam.

      Every adjective you use to describe others is always better used to describe you.

      You’re being reactive, by the way.

    • satchit says:

      This is not totally right. On 20th January Arpana wrote about the mala.

      MOD:
      You’re right, Satchit, well spotted (and apologies, Arpana).
      Still, Shantam is by far the most prolific contributor here. Easy to run him down but not so easy, apparently, to do a lot better.

      • satchit says:

        Yes, one should be fair to Shantam. He is an active contributor.

        And Arps, if Shantam had not been be so active, you would have had no reason to complain about him.

        • Arpana says:

          That would suit me.

          • frank says:

            Omg.
            The village idiot becomes the saviour of SN.
            The loonies have taken of the asylum.
            Book me a ticket to Dignitas!

            • frank says:

              OMG.
              The village idiot becomes the saviour of SN.
              The loonies have taken over the asylum.
              The blind lead the blind!

              • satchit says:

                Frank, you could also write an article, instead of celebrating your cynicism.

                • frank says:

                  To be frank,
                  I am struggling to retain interest in SN`s receding enlightentertainment value since Big P`s passing. It hasn`t gone well, really.

                  Lokesh tried to write an article and that turned into a kind of war with Arpana cranking out his “I`ll be your mirror” routine, who teamed up with Veet against one of the few people who can actually string a paragraph together.

                  Veet tries to use big words but the grim truth is that he is marginally less articulate than an anaesthetised baboon with some kind of weird butler complex that he thinks is funny but has the ring of a 9-year-old enjoying the smell of his own farts. Satchit, your comments aren’t in any danger of setting the Thames on fire any time soon, either.

                  Madhu thinks she is some kind of tea-drinking zen person but is so paranoidly deranged by some kind of mental `algorhythm` that she can`t seem to tell the difference between SN and an IS beheading vid.

                  And Shantam, by sheer persistence and probably more than a little help from ‘mother`s little helpers’ is getting some feedback that his blatant self-delusion has some basis in fact, which underneath the comic aspect is actually pretty sad.

                  I must be getting a bit long in the tooth, `cos no matter how cynical I get, I just can`t seem to keep up.

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  Please, Satchit, leave faceless-frank the prerogative (try a little with this big word, frank) to shoot his sour farts against what the others write (apart from his goliardic brother in cynicism, Lokesh).

                  MOD:
                  Post edited – over-abusive language.
                  Btw, what on earth does “goliardic” mean?!

                • satchit says:

                  @ Frank
                  I think you are too overqualified for this group, Frank, too intelligent.

                  I am also here for entertainment. But going this far to create an alter ego like you, to get some fun, I would not go.

                  Maybe you need it.

                • frank says:

                  Satchit, you say:
                  “I am also here for entertainment”

                  That`s a good one.

                  If your posts are supposed to be part of that entertainment then I would suggest that your success level is on a par with the efforts of a blind quadriplegic with no sense of smell trying to wipe his ass!

                • satchit says:

                  @ Frank,

                  Can you say it simple for me, I’m not a native speaker.

                  And no need to parrot Lokesh. Or is Lokesh parroting you?

                  Whatever – same judging mind.

                • frank says:

                  Satchit, not having a `judging mind` can make it difficult to grasp the basics, I know, but here goes…
                  A quadriplegic is a person who is affected by paralysis in all four limbs. If he was also blind and had no sense of smell, then the most probable outcome of his attempting to wipe his ass would be failure of a messy sort.

                  By saying that your attempts to contribute entertainment through your posts was equivalent to such a scenario, I was implying that the entertainment value was, in fact. not only zero, but rather an unpleasant sight also.

                  I hope that clears things up.

                • Arpana says:

                  @frank 4 April, 2019 at 4:33 pm

                  As so often happens with you, Frank, you have become exhilarated by the exuberance of your own verbosity.

                  MOD:
                  Disraeli, whom you quote here, Arpana, actually said of Gladstone, his longtime political rival in Victorian British poltics, that he had “become inebriated by the exuberance of his own verbosity, and gifted with an egotistical imagination.”

                  (Btw, ‘Dizzy’ was a fine orator himself, and here are some rather entertaining humorous quotes from his speeches, some of which might possibly be applied to some ‘regulars’ here… http://www.workinghumor.com/quotes/benjamin_disraeli.shtml# )

                • satchit says:

                  Seems you understood me wrong, Frank.

                  I did not say that I’m here to contribute entertainment, as, for example, Yogi does when he makes jokes out of all and everything so that people have something to laugh at, mostly about others.

                  I’m here for my own entertainment.

                • Arpana says:

                  @ Mod. 4 April, 2019 at 4:33 pm

                  Thanks, SD.

                  At the back of me brain I always have a sense I’m maybe not getting it right. It’s a phrase that has long associations, involving a friend and friends, and a game in a motorway service station in the early hours; entirely good humoured.

                • frank says:

                  No wonder the Johnny-foreigners on here think that SN is a left-over outpost of the British Empire!
                  Wheeling out Disraeli, that poster-boy for one-party conservatism and jingoistic, zenophobic empire tub-thumping and recommending his words for the moral upliftment of the SN contributors?!

                  Bring back corporal punishment and cold showers, I say.
                  It never did me any harm!

                  MOD:
                  Frank, the Disraeli quotes were, as indicated, for entertainment, not for “moral upliftment”. Have you no sense of humour, Swami?!

                • frank says:

                  MOD,
                  Sense of humour?
                  God forbid.

                  I do have a sense of fair play, tho`. I quite like some foreigners.
                  For example, I have a picture of Bert Trautmann with a broken neck on my bedroom wall that I regularly jack off to. Don`t you?

                  MOD:
                  Er, no, actually, Frank. we mods gave up that sort of thing quite a lengthy time ago, old boy. That’s why we’re ‘on the job’, as it were.

                  Perhaps you need help for your addiction? I hear the FA lends a sympathetic ear to such cases these days – the, er, ‘Gazza Effect’ I believe it’s called by the, er, ‘media’. (Er, no, not that sort of “help” – stop sniggering, man, act your age, for Bert’s, I mean Christ’s, I mean Bhagwan’s, I mean Osho’s sake).

                • frank says:

                  That reminds me of something I read about Rodney Marsh whilst he was playing for England. Alf Ramsey said, “If you don`t play well, I`m going to pull you off at half-time.” To which Marsh replied, “Blimey, at Man City we only get a cup of tea and an orange.”

  18. Shantam prem says:

    I wish to disagree with Lokesh on most of the issues; still it brings maximum joy to read him at this site. It is Pisces way of acknowledging Sagittarius claim to be masters.

  19. Shantam prem says:

    My computer is at workshop for repair. It gives not real feeling to write from mobile.
    As far as cost to run this site is concerned, I would love to contribute. May be paypal button needs to be added.

    • swami anand anubodh says:

      Just a thought:

      Shantam Prem, didn’t you visit Sheela recently?

      Assuming you have her ‘ear’, maybe you could contact her and use your silky, smooth, Sikh charm and enquire if she would like to be the topic of an article?

      It would be a good result for SN, and a chance for you to compensate for any nonsense you may have posted in the past (or future).

      I can start the ball rolling by suggesting a title: ‘Why I am not the callous, calculating bitch, the world thinks I am.’

      Btw, did your PC try to commit suicide?

      • Arpana says:

        You can be rather cutting sometimes, Anubodh. Silky smooth with it. Like Blackadder!!

        Have you by chance had teaching experience?

        • swami anand anubodh says:

          Funny you should mention ‘Blackadder’. When Shantam Prem announced his idea to write a book about Neo-Sannyas, I immediately thought of the episode ‘Ink and Incapability’ where Baldrick accidentally ends up burning Edmond’s life’s work, ‘A Butler’s Tale’. Although in SP’s case there will never be a book to burn.

          Anyway, it doesn’t matter what I post about him; as far as he is concerned, I’m not on ‘fakebook’ – so I don’t exist.

      • Shantam prem says:

        Anubodh,
        Are you sure your guru is in better position than your guru sister Sheela?
        I don’t like over-smart cultists who condemn the ones who left for the right reasons.

        • swami anand anubodh says:

          How’s your PC, Shantam Prem?

          Is it out of intensive care yet?

          Would you pass on my best wishes for a full recovery, and let it know that all who administer and post on SN send their love.

          Realistically, old friend, maybe its time is up? Keyboards can be the weakness, especially when you keep hitting the same keys like, ‘P’, ‘O’, ‘R’, ‘S’, ‘N’, ‘E’, ‘X’. I remember when it was Osho’s time, he did not ask to be taken to the workshop for repair.

          Hold on….SP, this isn’t a cover story, is it? To try and hide the fact that you have secretly poisoned your PC?

          • Shantam prem says:

            Once computer is back home I have an idea to write a piece on 15 Minutes of Fame for Punja ji, who left behind great artists on spiritual stage.

            On one level his (Osho’s) followers have failed Osho freaks in market capitalisation.

            • swami anand anubodh says:

              SP,
              Great news that your PC agreed to come home with you! I thought it may have asked the repair shop for asylum.

  20. Shantam prem says:

    Other day a friend was saying he hates these gentlemen who are playing living gurus. They are not true masters. Osho is still a true master.

    Same guy has the idea how ashram can be the same when Osho is no more. The person is a good friend who was with Osho from Pune 1. He was in Darshan, in hundreds of talks, slept with hundreds of women in the rooms of Osho Ashram/commune/Resort.

    Now this chap wants people of this time to listen to Osho and find their way with the help of great words.
    This is basically the mind-set of many fools who claim to have been with living, breathing, talking Bhagwan.

    My suggestion is honest and pragmatic:
    Don’t get lost in watching porn. Keep the longing alive for living one-to-one encounter. Failed love relations are million times closer to truth than watching videos.

    Pop spirituality talks are also a sort of porn.

    • anand yogi says:

      Your honest and pragmatic suggestion is most timely and perfectly correct, Shantambhai!

      “Don’t get lost in watching porn. Keep the longing alive for living one-to-one encounter. Failed love relations are million times closer to truth than watching videos.”

      This is certainly a sutra of greatest wisdom, worthy of a high place in holy books of world such as: ‘Guru Wank Sahib’, ‘Old Tosstament’, ‘Bhagavan Beater’ and ‘Upanishags’.

      Swami Bhorat gives loving reminder that you should bow down at feet of Pune 1 disciple who has slept with hundreds of women, been to hundreds of darshans and done hundreds of things you wanted to do but could not, but remains a foolish idiot entertaining himself and indulging in self-abuse with videos, because out of immense compassion, he is making you feel better about having wasted own life!

      The old sannyasins are now hopelessly lost, with some such as SD, Satchit and Frank resorting to getting satisfaction from watching retro vids of Bert Trautmann!
      It is certainly Kali Yuga!

      Fortunately, there is new blood on the block and newboy Swami Ritvik, self-proclaimed “master-debater”, can inject new life into flaccid organ of SN! Bhagavad Beater, surely!

      Yahoo!
      Hari Om!

      • kavita says:

        AY, come on! You got a chance to show some of your genius creativity, which I sincerely enjoy.

        Seems the spiritual Alpha male in you can have some more virtual fun!

        • anand yogi says:

          Perfectly correct, Kavita!

          Swami Bhorat sends his blessings and prays that SN contributors and readers drop mind and enjoy higher realms of mindless entertainment!

          Yahoo!
          Hari Om!

  21. Tan says:

    It’s a pity that Lokesh can’t be arsed to say something about his experience with Poonjaji.

    I remember that Osho always said, and I quote from memory: “There are only two paths to find truth, starting from the heart till awareness, or starting from awareness to get to the heart, two sides of the same coin.”

    To me, Osho is heart. Many came to him attracted by the love they felt and all the rest of it. We all know about it, don’t we?

    And Jiddu Krishnamurti was a contemporary. Two giants!

    While Osho started his “work” through Meditation techniques, Zen, Buddhism and so on…”using all that was possible to lead us”, as he once said. J.K. was doing the opposite, he was against all kind of gurus, meditation techniques and all the rest of it.

    They bitched about each other, JK never mentioned Osho by name and Osho, as always, outrageously, hitting him directly, making jokes of him and calling him “a bull in a china shop”, when it happened that some sannyasins would go and sit at JK audience.

    To me, their teaching are very similar, just different strategies.
    With Osho there is the song, the love, the laughter. With JK, there is a kind of seriousness, he explains beautifully, tirelessly, about emptiness being pure energy and thought being matter. He is a marvellous teacher!

    So, and now? The two complete each other? I don’t know.

    Cheers, guys!

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Here we go, TanTan; you´re coming up again fresh. And yes – sounds true (for me) what you have to say.
      .
      And as far as the J.K. meetings (long, long ago) were concerned, Osho Himself even inspired sannyasins in orange robes to sit there, front row!

      Yes – the bitching…
      Best – if one manages not to take it seriously.

      Bitching, however, is alive as alive can be, but it makes such a difference if a Master is playing with it, doesn’t it?

      And as far as Lokesh is concerned, he shared quite a very lot in the course of chat-times; as much about himself as about his view of Punjaji, Osho and other sources of inspiration, he found, or was found by it.

      The question is, if we here become a little acquainted with each other.
      As fellow-travellers.

      Madhu

    • kavita says:

      Cheers, Tan & your ”the rest of it” reminded me of UG; now with him the trinity is complete!

      • frank says:

        Welcome back, Tan.

        Osho and K were a hell of a double-act, for sure.
        I was there when K died and O talked about him – he still ripped into him when the guy was dead!

        Ah! Those were the days when spiritual teachers called a spade a spade, pulled no punches and kicked spiritual ass from here to here.

        Not like these days where they`re all nicey-nicey, scratch each other`s backs, write hyperbolic blurbs for each other’s books and say how wonderful they all are (in public).

  22. Shantam prem says:

    As I see, gurus are alternative to lost daddies. Most of the people have fathers but majority of fathers prove weaklings. I see my father as a tragic hero who did not commit suicide.

    Surely Bhagwan or Punya ji or Mooji-like personalites attract many such gullible young people. There is a psychology behind all alternative relations.

  23. Lokesh says:

    Why not Lokesh?
    Far too lazy for a start.

  24. Lokesh says:

    Somebody once asked the Beedie Wallah how to recognize enlightened people.
    He replied, they usually live quiet and peaceful lives.
    Well, I got that bit right.
    Time to wash the dishes.

    • Arpana says:

      Thanks for this, Lokesh.
      Just finished washing the dishes, after lunch, after sitting in a cafe, on a canal, writing in a journal.

  25. Arpana says:

    Cool post, el Loko.

    A thought:
    You said, “They can serve as a source of inspiration. They can also be a source of delusional thinking.”

    That’s true of pretty much anybody or anything, n’est-ce pas?! We humans live in varying degrees of misconception and ignorance.

  26. frank says:

    The positive point is definitely about inspiration. Poets, for example, have often, if not always, felt the guiding presence of previous poets. For example, Blake felt Milton guiding him and the Beat poets felt Blake, in turn, guiding them.

    It`s a poetic fancy of course but I would not call that a criticism.
    Life without such things would be shite.

    I think that a problem arises in the literalisation of these kind of events. That`s when wacko dogma arises.

    Look at the Xian creed, for example:
    “I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of Heaven and Earth.
    I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
    He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
    He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
    He descended to the dead.
    On the third day he rose again.
    He ascended into Heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again to judge the living and the dead.”

    If you take that lot literally, well, what to say?

  27. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    How you managed, Lokesh, to contribute here the only post to this particular thread topic up to now, which is being rooted in some (mental and psychic) sanity remains a mystery in itself; may have something to do with the fortunate habitation you´re living in and/or the fact that you came to know Shamtam Prem on your island a little bit closer…

    Anyway, it did/does well, to read it.

    Otherwise it is not only NOT smooth sailing through the ´unstable and uncharted waters´ of this chat-caravanserai net, to (read) move through, watching the psycho-terrorism unfolding here, which I wouldn´t compare to women´s handbag fighting, as one of the contributors (a man) dared to compare it with.

    If traditions and concepts of traditions lose their combining strengths we´re facing all kinds of fanaticism and the obnoxious and often so cruel actions that follow. And – as it is well known by now – starting with chats like this (just see the IS kind of crap filling the net like anything with war-like attitudes).

    Such crap has nothing to do with ‘handbag’ fights.

    And thanks again for your contribution and the awareness in it, Lokesh.

    Madhu

  28. satchit says:

    Yes, what to say – Xian creed!

    If one scratches on the surface, past life unfolds.

    Have you been a server in your younger days, Frankie?

  29. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    This is not the first time, in the course of these years I’ve contributed, that I´m reminded of the innumerable follwow-ups of double bind and double bind settings which – as some of the contributors here might know – are also used (and misused!) in therapeutic sessions or also in Zen practice (by their Masters – or amongst their sangha crowd, who imitate the Masters and want to be in power in the monastery realms…to be the Master dead or alive..).

    Here’s a Wiki quote:

    “Far from being restricted to a limited number of pathological cases, as American theoreticians suggest, the double bind — a contradictory double imperative, or rather a whole network of contradictory imperatives — is an extremely common phenomenon. In fact, it is so common that it might be said to form the basis of all human relationships.

    Bateson is undoubtedly correct in believing that the effects of the double bind on the child are particularly devastating. All the grown-up voices around him, beginning with those of the father and mother (voices which, in our society at least, speak for the culture with the force of established authority) exclaim in a variety of accents, “Imitate us!” “Imitate me!” “I bear the secret of life, of true being!” The more attentive the child is to these seductive words, and the more earnestly he responds to the suggestions emanating from all sides, the more devastating will be the eventual conflicts.

    The child possesses no perspective that will allow him to see things as they are. He has no basis for reasoned judgements, no means of foreseeing the metamorphosis of his model into a rival. This model’s opposition reverberates in his mind like a terrible condemnation; he can only regard it as an act of excommunication. The future orientation of his desires — that is, the choice of his future models — will be significantly affected by the dichotomies of his childhood. In fact, these models will determine the shape of his personality.

    If desire is allowed its own bent, its mimetic nature will almost always lead it into a double bind. The unchanneled mimetic impulse hurls itself blindly against the obstacle of a conflicting desire. It invites its own rebuffs and these rebuffs will in turn strengthen the mimetic inclination.

    We have, then, a self-perpetuating process, constantly increasing in simplicity and fervor. Whenever the disciple borrows from his model what he believes to be the “true” object, he tries to possess that truth by desiring precisely what this model desires. Whenever he sees himself closest to the supreme goal, he comes into violent conflict with a rival. By a mental shortcut that is both eminently logical and self-defeating, he convinces himself that the violence itself is the most distinctive attribute of this supreme goal! Ever afterward, violence will invariably awaken desire…”

    (René Girard, ‘Violence and the Sacred: From Mimetic Desire to the Monstrous Double’, pp.156–157)

    As I see it, we´re all touched by such an important issue (of double binding, more so if the communication is virtual and at the most, anonymous too).

    So – what to do?
    Or, what to let go of?
    Or – how to transform ongoing sick and sickening (here: verbal) fights and transcend them re an exchange of Human Beings with some of what can be called ´respecting each other as oneself’?

    We are here on this tiny little website SN/UK (btw, negligible regarding the whole of the huge amount of madness going on in the internet at large) and it would be so nice if we could manage to make a difference to the whole narcissistic cyber-warring that´s going on, unfortunately.

    I´ve been able to be more acquainted with the late Parmartha whose stoic AND integral approaches here and there I really appreciated. I also appreciated to be able by his very comments to realise that when he mentioned the Sannyas Sangha in different historical phases he knew by his skull and bones what he was talking about.

    So do I, Friends.

    Friends of coming together, Friends of a meditative approach to Living.

    Sunday lunch break time…
    Sky in a silvery grey here in Munich, with a lot of Light behind the bars of the closed cloudy ´roof’ above.

    Yours sincerely, as the British say -

    Madhu

  30. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Yes, Arpana, “misconception” and ” ignorance”. You – who are tirelessly pointing out with your (verbal) finger other contributors’ jealousy or failures of conditioning – also for you it’s valuable that many fingers are pointing back at you.

    And even then, and perhaps even more – then – if you are indeed an instinctively proofed ‘premium citer´ of this and that of the Master´s heritage of Teachings.

    Btw, as far as that is concerned – re your (verbal) finger-pointing at some false priesthood´s attitudes – you as tirelessly like to proclaim seeing in ´so-called´ others here in the Sannyas UK Chat for a long, long and maybe all too long time!

    Because as a matter of readable facts – when you don´t hide behind one or another ´celebrity´ – you don´t show, besides your own strong affinity towards aggression (mostly passive-aggression in abundance), a little of that which could lighten up a notoriously aggressive and so often obnoxious field of exchange here.

    Madhu

  31. satyadeva says:

    Madhu, your negative comments bear little or no relation to the vast majority of comments on this thread.

    I suggest you’re misinterpreting things, seeing abuse which isn’t there, eg mistaking humour for violence (“psycho-terrorism”? Give us a break, please!). Take another look and perhaps see what it is that moves you to this sort of (mis)judgment.

    Also, reading “(just see the IS kind of crap filling the net like anything with war-like attitudes)”, I suggest you might be taking too much time looking for and “filling” your mind with this sort of poison, let alone the ‘normal’ news, which, as you surely know, has been, is and always will be 95-plus% negative.

    Why, especially in your apparently vulnerable situation, do this to yourself? Give yourself a break too, you deserve it!

  32. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    The moment, MODs, a sentence like I had originally written it:
    “Such crap has nothing to do with ‘handbag’ fights or some amusement about violent approaches digesting a loss of feeling ´home´ in whatsoever.”

    Without distortion of what I meant by adding a word at the very end, then you can ask me anything – and as before – I might find an answer. Even then, when some ´moderation´ takes the turn of being manipulation via distortion…with the camouflage of innocently (false) politeness.

    MOD:
    Madhu, the extra word at the end (“violent”) was an oversight, a mistake, not “manipulation via distortion”. I’d have thought that was a simple matter of common sense, unworthy of such an unhelpful response, not least because the SN admin. takes care to present your posts as clearly as possible.
    And it’s a pity you also choose to misinterpret sympathy likewise.

    Meanwhile, that last half of your sentence remains indecipherable.

  33. Arpana says:

    Madhu,
    Thank you for pointing at the error of my ways.

  34. swami anand anubodh says:

    I blame the handbags….

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpn6etelYQg

    (Note the decisive solution from the ‘mods’).

    MOD:
    Many thanks for highlighting these points, Anubodh. Rest assured they’ll be discussed at the next SN admin meeting.

  35. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    That´s what I call a very British response, MODs, ´stiff upper lip´, ‘colonial-form´.
    Maybe this kind of Time is up.

    But who knows?

    MOD:
    I think you’re right, Madhu, “this kind of Time is up”. No point putting up an indecipherable sentence so we’ll delete that part right now.

  36. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Your spinning handbag, Madhu, is the only real threat to the stiff upper lips here, transforming staid butlers into vulgar Italian truck drivers.

  37. Arpana says:

    Egregious stereotyping, VF.
    You should be ashamed.
    Down with this sort of thing.

  38. satyadeva says:

    An attempt at irony, Veet F?

  39. anand yogi says:

    Perfectly correct, Veet Francesco and Madhu!

    By insisting on reading only sentences that make logical sense, the violent, colonial, manipulating, psycho-terrorist baboons of SN are distorting the very nature of reality with their psycho-terrorist algorhythms of hate-speech!

    They will certainly find their stiff upper lips quivering in the face of Madhu`s swinging handbag!

    And it is certainly an ultra-violent cybercrime against humanity on the level of IS beheading videos that the fanatical, obnoxious, cruel, warmongering MOD has acted like Goebbels` butler and changed one or two words of Madhu`s posts for his own evil, perverted and violent purposes!

    Beloved Veet, it is your dharma to continue the fight against the Anglo-Saxon butlers like a true Italian war-hero!

    It is time for you to join Madhu in the crusade for sanity, the sanity of which is self-evident!

    SN has remained an outpost for tax-dodging British butlers and exploiters of humanity for too long!

    The truth must be told!

    And a blindfolded, drunken, Italian. foul-mouthed truck-driver with learning difficulties randomly kicking keyboard on `Google Translate` with club foot is certainly the one to do it!

    Yahoo!
    Hari Om!

  40. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Thank you for your encouragement, Anand Yogi. Since you are no longer able to carry the tray, you have managed to turn frustration into the random wisdom of those who can afford to say anything, fearing neither spinning handbags nor spinning bone club*.

    It is beyond dispute that your former butler colleagues apply the same logical or sanity algorithms to you; the spirit of belonging to the same category of servants makes them look at you with the seriousness of someone born under the same astral framework of the kingdom.

    I hope I’ve met your learning limits about trucker sense of humour.

    *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af3YAP6TBmk

  41. Arpana says:

    “Luigi met his best friend Giancarlo in the street one day. “Hello, Giancarlo, what-a you got-a inna your coat?”
    “Well-a,” said Giancarlo, “you know-a that fascist bastard Francesco? Well-a, every time I come-a to town, he says-a to me, `Hey, Giancarlo, how you doing today-a?’ Then he punches me in the chest-a with his fist-a and breaks-a all my cigars. So today I got-a four sticks-a of dynamite in my pocket. When he comes-a, I am-a gonna blow his goddamn hand-a off!”

    Pierino comes home from school and asks his father, “Papa, what does `simultaneously’ mean?”
    “It means at the same time,” replies the father. But Pierino still does not understand, so the father explains it.
    “Well,” he says, “if you were born from a relationship between your mother and another man, not me, what would I be?”
    “A cuckold!” replies the little boy.
    “Right!” says the father. “And simultaneously you would be the son of a bitch!”

    The Italian experience is very fundamental for spiritual growth. If you are not born an Italian, you can learn to be an Italian — it is easy. All that you need to do is exactly the same that you do in meditation, just a little bit different. In meditation you go beyond the mind; in being Italian you go below the mind. In both cases you go out of the mind! And it is better first to try to go below the mind; that will give you an out-of-the-mind experience — and then there is no possibility of relapsing.

    Once you have tasted being an Italian, then you start praying to God, “No more of it! Enough is enough!” Then you start praying, “I don’t want any more birth and death. I am fed up with time, I want to dissolve into eternity.” But without being an Italian, this longing will not arise in you.

    That’s why I am so much in love with Italians — every moment they are coming closer to enlightenment. The deeper they become Italians, the closer they are coming to enlightenment; then the jump can happen at any moment.

    There are people who are just in the middle — neither here nor there; they don’t have much hope. For example, Indians — they don’t have much hope. They are middle-of-the-road walkers — very careful, very cautious; they never go to the extremes. Keeping themselves in the middle they miss both the ultimate in misery and the ultimate in ecstasy.

    To be an Italian is to be in ultimate misery. The only hope is spaghetti; otherwise all is misery! Once you have experienced the ultimate in misery, now the only possible way left for you is to search for the ultimate bliss, and nothing less than that will help you. The ultimate misery can be removed only by ultimate bliss.

    It is not an accident that so many Italians are here. They have tasted the misery there, they have seen. If you have seen Italy you have seen the whole world. It is a miniature world, and once you are fed up with Italy you are fed up with the world too. Then nirvana is possible. In fact, from Italy to nirvana there is a direct route; that is the most simple, direct and the shortest route.

    Italians live a very earthy life; they are earthy people. That’s what is good about them — they are down to earth. They are not too interested in heaven and paradise; they don’t care much about that. This earth is enough. But because it is not enough, sooner or later they start feeling an urge to seek for something else.

    The Indians live on the earth, they are very mundane, but they go on talking about spirituality. That keeps them in a kind of illusion. Because of their talk they think they are spiritual. Because of their beautiful words which they have become very efficient in repeating…thousands of years of repeating and chanting mantras. They can do it very easily and befool others, but that is secondary — they can befool themselves. Hearing themselves using beautiful words, they can become infatuated with their own words. Words have then their own magnetism. If you use great words you will be influenced by those words — and your reality will be the same, it will not change. Words cannot change your reality, but they can hide, they can cover it up. They can give you a respectability.

    The Indian lives in respectability. His whole effort is how to remain respectable, religious, spiritual; how to show others that he is a holy man. He is continuously making deliberate and not so deliberate efforts at pretending greatness, other-worldliness. You can see around him that stinking, ugly phenomenon of holier-than-thou.

    Italians are beautiful in that way. They are simple people, down-to-earth, no-nonsense people. They don’t bother about spiritual rubbish. And it is good to be earthly. My own experience is, if you have never been earthly, down-to-earth, if you have never been really materialistic, absolutely earthly, if you have never been really an atheist, you will not become spiritual, ever. Materialism has to become the base; your down-to-earthness has to become your foundation. Then the temple, the shrine of spirituality can rise on top of it.
    First be a Charvaka, an Epicurean, a Zorba the Greek; only then can you be Gautama the Buddha, Jesus Christ, Bahauddin, Nanak, Kabir…If your foundation is missing, then your spirituality is hocus-pocus; it is just verbal.

    I love the Italian rootedness into the earth, because from there the work can start. The body has to be accepted first, not only accepted but respected too. If you have not explored your body you will not be able to explore the soul. The methodology of exploration is the same, but begin with the body because the body is the visible part of your soul. Start with the visible and then slowly move towards the invisible. Start with the known and then move towards the unknown. Start from the periphery and then go deeper towards the centre.”

    Osho
    Come, Come, Yet Again Come
    Chapter 12
    Chapter title: From Italy to Nirvana

  42. Arpana says:

    Scratchit has hidden depths, or visible shallows.

    You decide.

  43. satyadeva says:

    Actually though, Trautmann was far more than ‘just’ a magnificently brave goalkeeper. His life story (3 short videos at youtube) is remarkable, well worth a look, even if football holds no attraction.
    https://youtu.be/BeQcmIrb64M

  44. satchit says:

    He should be thankful to me.

    “Chemicals” – one word helped him to come out of his lethargy.

  45. Arpana says:

    Shantam the jealous bubby screeching about nothing as usual; because he never got to sit around living Osho, the living master, and now he is old and has no sense of fairness and balance; just a fucking smugness, despite having wasted his life trying to pull down those so much better than him.

  46. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    Thanks, both of you – Lokesh and Frank – for your late afternoon/evening contributions; and as you have been the one to have a reply button to use, Lokesh, you´re getting this response.

    Also to add here that you, Frank, didn´t hit any target by your descriptions of my personal state of being and the condition I´m in!

    Madhu

  47. satyadeva says:

    Re criticism of the quality of articles and posts here since Parmartha’s passing, the major point is that we have lost a dedicated and most prolific source of articles, both of his own creation and through his connection with many in the wider Sannyas world. Parmartha had contacts all over the world, receiving an almost constant stream of news, ideas, notes and articles from ‘the grassroots’ (and, occasionally, from ‘higher’ sannyas realms).

    And as stated at the start of their ‘tenure’, the current admin team exists to keep the site functioning but it’s not going to be a source of articles, so it’s down to the contributors to provide that stimulus.

    We can try Anubodh’s idea of revisiting topics from SN’s past and it would help if anyone who wishes to suggest any they think deserve an ‘update’ to mention it, preferably with an outline of how they (or someone else) might approach it.

    Another possibility is to contact all registered members (there are several hundred) and invite them to be active here, including writing articles and comments. SN could do with more fresh voices like Ritvik’s. We’ve chosen not to do this up to now, wary of becoming overwhelmed, but it might well now be time to attract new energy, especially as soon we’ll have to pay further costs to remain alive online and there’ll be no point doing that unless SN works well for its clientele.

  48. satchit says:

    “Satchit already has it in his mind that I am some sort of chemical head.”

    You don’t know what I have in my mind, Lokesh. I see that you have the fear of being judged.

    You, who is so good in judging others. Already with my first comments you came up with your parrot-blabla.

    “Chemicals” was just teasing you, and you didn’t get, because you are far too serious. Do you think you are the only one here who has had drug experience?

  49. There is no doubt, Lokesh, that for what I see of you on the surface I like it, but if you tell me that if you scratch your mask there would be much more, I trust you.

    In the case that after having finished scratching my balls I will still be curious to know what you’re referring to, I’ll ask you to share.

    Btw, when was the last time you said “I love you”?

    P.S:
    I wrote a page and a half for my creative writing lab, it was very successful; do you think if I translated it your mod’s friends would publish it?
    Would you be curious to read me?

  50. swami anand anubodh says:

    I have made a list of the almost 800 articles available in the SN archive.

    https://justpaste.it/snarticles

    Maybe when followers have a spare moment they can browse through them. (I assume the caravanserai contact page can be used to send suggestions, as I have found a couple).

    If anyone has an interesting quote from Osho, perhaps that could also form a topic.

    MOD:
    Thanks, Anubodh, that’s very helpful.

  51. kavita says:

    “We can try Anubodh’s idea of revisiting topics from SN’s past and it would help if anyone who wishes to suggest any they think deserve an ‘update’ to mention it, preferably with an outline of how they (or someone else) might approach it.

    Another possibility is to contact all registered members (there are several hundred) and invite them to be active here, including writing articles and comments. SN could do with more fresh voices like Ritvik’s.”

    SD, somehow contacting all registered members seems like a huge task; personally, I can not imagine doing that!

    You keep reminding us about the payment for this website but seems Jitendra & you (SN admin team) have no proper information about this; if this needs attention please do the needful.

    Anyway, SD, thanks for your effortless effort for whatever you are doing to keep SN going.

    MOD:
    Kavita, we have the payments schedule, the next one is due later this month. Up to now, Jitendra/Clive is well out of pocket due to having foot the bills himself (as, btw, Parmartha always did) but that has to change now.

  52. satchit says:

    Jawohl Herr Reichssturmbandführer!
    Control is needed, more control!

  53. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    Bravo, Lokesh, but when the fire of the war is approaching, it is not enough to wear sunglasses, you must become reasonable, you should better evaluate the role of AY, it seems that you underestimate it, referring to how you imagine it could improve SN.

    If you grant to AY the expressive possibilities that you do not grant to others it means that you will legitimize the continuation of the climate of sarcasm at the expense of the “idiots of the village”, for the benefit of the old SN-goers like you.

    If there is only him authorised to create clichés, without the possibility for other people to counter them, the implications will be that he will continue to direct the discussions through his cynical and sarcastic point of view, to which bullies like you can continue to allude, making the equation that if the cliché makes you laugh then it’s true and right to expose it.

    I like AY too, but only after I have responded to his funny invectives.

  54. kavita says:

    SD, it’s obvious that the ones who need/want this site to live on will have to contribute financially too.

    Please put out the bill details & amount & also options of the mode of contributing, so at least we regulars can find a way to convey before the due date.

    MOD:
    Ok, Kavita, thanks.

  55. kavita says:

    Satchit, how convenient is that, your teasing is fine!

  56. satchit says:

    Sorry, Lokesh, you are a bit boring with your comments. Certainly SN can be without me, without you too.

    But it’s interesting how an old hippy can change into a control-freak.
    Did you take your pills this morning?

  57. Lokesh, trust me, Satchit is very funny, especially when you start interacting with him.

  58. satchit says:

    I tell you a secret now, Lokesh, because I’m in a good mood.

    I am also Sagittarius.

    Maybe this is the reason that you are in Love with me?

  59. Arpana says:

    ”Sorry, Lokesh, you are a bit boring with your comments. Certainly SN can be without me, without you too.”

    Bravo, Satchit.
    Without me too.

  60. kavita says:

    Hope it rains today, Loki!

  61. Lokesh says:

    Hi, K.
    The rain passed by and is now a rather blustery sunny afternoon. Have a few projects that I should be focusing on and I am not, for one reason or another. I saw that some new chap will have some articles posted therefore no need to write an article right now…phew, that’s a relief…I am very lazy just now.

  62. kavita says:

    Ok, Loki, take your time!

  63. Shantam prem says:

    I think Lokesh has the personality to promote himself as western Papa ji. If Mooji can do it why not Lokesh?

    Maybe one should get birth in warm and poor countries and lower-middle class families to develop qualities of Papaji in hundreds.

  64. Arpana says:

    Madhu the parent double-binds everyone at Sannyas News.

  65. satyadeva says:

    The conclusion of the quoted article reminds me of a Bob Dylan line, “The world is built on violence.” I think he was referring to the ‘outside’ world but as we thoroughly superior people have long realised, the conflict starts within…

    So while the article’s premise might well be correct (and it took me several readings to fully grasp what it was saying), that’s not necessarily the case if awareness comes into the picture. As, of course, we’ve always found here at SN….

  66. Arpana says:

    I have found as I have become older, that an awful lot of what I once judged as wrong I no longer judge as wrong (I judged myself at least as badly as I judged others, but then I judged myself for judging others) and so it no longer looks wrong; and the world I live in now is nothing like as bad, or awful, as I saw it as, in my most idealistic, ideological, self-righteous, knowing lefty days.

    I would say if we humans only let go of about 90% of our 1 billion each, quite reasonable expectations, the world would appear dramatically less awful, and then we might all individually and collectively be able to get a hook on what really needs sorting out.

  67. satyadeva says:

    By “expectations”, Arps, do you mean wants (desires), not only our own but including how things ‘ought’ to be ‘out there’?

    Could you provide a few examples?

    Btw, BL’s rough definition of ‘perfection’, applicable to one’s health and general situation was ’80% good, 20% not so good’ – which has always seemed a good, practical criterion to me.

  68. Arpana says:

    The unhappiest people I know all seem to believe nothing should ever happen that doesn’t suit them, that nobody should ever disagree with them about anything.

    Sannyas News, at best, is a rich diversity of viewpoints. Pluralistic.

    I was standing at the bottom of a hill waiting for a bus one early spring morning last year, during a downfall, but just spring rain really, when a woman started to complain about the weather to me. I have long come to terms with British weather, so I just don’t do that any more. And she really began to get off on her tirade, seemed consumed with resentment actually…

    And then the sun came out, the rain eased, and as I looked up the hill I could see a canopy of trees, a tunnel of trees bursting with fresh leaves, which were glistening in the sunlight appearing from behind those dispersing grey clouds; the air was electric with that spring rain freshness, and also glistening as the light caught the rain, the moisture in the air, it was absolutely beautiful. And I just looked at the woman, and pointed upwards and she noticed what I had noticed.

    A doctor friend of mine did VSO in Tanzania, and told me how people would walk for 6 weeks to see a doctor, and wait for a couple of weeks more when they arrived to see the doctor – and people complain about the NHS if they wait for 5 minutes.