Osho and the Mala

Arpana writes on wearing the Mala and red clothes – and Osho on the mysterious power of the Mala.

After we stopped wearing the Mala and red clothes in 1985 there was a rush of individuals to take sannyas; and certainly from my personal experience a number of them had been hanging around sannyasins for a long time, and quite plainly would never have jumped if they’d actually had to wear a Mala and red clothes.

Related to this, and other observations, I’ve developed the view that Sannyas since then has been divided into two camps, which is to say those who would take sannyas even if they had to wear a Mala and red clothes, and those who wouldn’t put themselves in the hot seat.

I have occasionally come across individuals, face-to-face and online, who I am convinced would wear a Mala and red clothes if they had to, and there are fellow-travellers posting at Sannyas News who strike me that way. So these articles are articulating what is to me an interesting development; and in fact not mentioned here is the fact that, as far as I know, individuals who go to Arun’s place wear a Mala and red clothes (is that correct?), so what do “Sannyas News punters”, to quote dear Parmartha, have to say?

OSHO ON THE MALA

“You ask me, “Why this mala? Why this picture?”
I will say, “Use it in this way, and this will happen,” and my answer is as scientific as possible. Religion never claims to be rational, the only claim is of being irrational.

Use the mala in this way: meditate on the picture, then the picture will not be there. It happens so. Then the absent picture becomes a door. Through that door communicate with me. It happens so. After doing meditation, take this mala off and feel, and then put this mala on and feel, and you will see the difference.

Without this mala you will feel totally unprotected, totally in the reins of a force which can be harmful. With this mala on you will feel protected, you will be more confident, settled. Nothing can disturb from the outside. It happens so; you will do the experiment and know. Why it happens cannot even be answered scientifically. And religiously there is no question to answer. Religion never claims, that is why so many rituals of religion become irrelevant.

As time passes by, a very meaningful ritual will become meaningless, because keys are lost and no one can say why this ritual exists. Then it becomes just a dead ritual. You cannot do anything with it. You can perform it, but the key is lost. For example, you can go on wearing the mala, and if you do not know that the picture in it is meant for some inner communication, then it will be just a dead weight. Then the key is lost. The mala may be with you, but the key is lost. Then one day or another you will have to throw away the mala because it is useless.

The mala is a device for meditation. It is a key. But this will come only through experience. I can only help you toward the experience. And unless it happens, you will not know. But it can happen, it is so easy, it is not difficult at all. When I am alive, it is so easy. When I am not there, it will be very difficult.

All these statues that have existed on this earth were used as such devices, but now they are meaningless. Buddha declared that his statue should not be made. But the work that was done by statues still will have to be done. Although the statue is meaningless, the real thing is the work that can be done through it.

Those who follow Mahavira can communicate with Mahavira through his statue even today. So what should Buddha’s disciples do? That is why the Bodhi tree became so important; it was used instead of Buddha’s statue. For five hundred years after Buddha there was no statue. In the Buddhist temples only a picture of the Bodhi tree and two symbolic footprints were kept, but this was sufficient. That still continues. The tree that exists in Bodhgaya is in continuity with the original tree. So still today those who know the key can communicate with Buddha through the Bodhi tree at Bodhgaya. It is not just meaningless that monks from all over the world come to Bodhgaya. But they must know the key, otherwise they will just go and the whole thing will be just a ritual.

So these are keys – particular mantras chanted in a particular way, pronounced in a particular way, emphasized in a particular way with such-and-such frequencies. A wavelength should be created, the waves should be created. Then the Bodhi tree is not just a Bodhi tree; it becomes a passage, it opens a door. Then twenty-five centuries are no more, the time gap is not there. You come face to face with Buddha. But keys are always lost. So this much can be said: use the locket, and you will know much. All that I have said will be known, and more that I have not said will be known also.”

Osho, ‘I Am The Gate’, Chapter 3, Q. 2 (excerpt)

Acknowledgements to:

https://www.oshonews.com/2018/11/18/karunesh-malas/

https://loveosho.com/blog-1/wearing-the-osho-mala

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194 Responses to Osho and the Mala

  1. Reflecting on the hypothesis of wearing the sannyasin uniform in everyday life makes me ask the preliminary question whether this would be out of an ‘expressive’ or ‘instrumental’ reason, and in turn there would be other distinctions to be made in each option, about what expression and what I want to achieve.

    Ciao,
    VF

    • Arpana says:

      ”‘expressive’ or ‘instrumental’”

      V.F.
      Are you making a distinction between ‘obliged to’ and ‘choosing to’ here?

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        No, you did it, Arpana; however, interesting too.

        I’ll try to better describe what your post may have brought out in me.

        Before reading it I wondered whether to accept a job or not, thinking about the distinction between doing a job that I like (where I express myself) and making one just to survive (an instrument to do what I like afterwards); this was mental association of the moment that pulled the other ones.

        It seems clear to me that the choice to wear or not the sannyasin uniform for me exists only because Osho is no longer among us. As you may have noticed I am a docile person and willing to surrender.

        So today I would say that if I have never worn the red robe outside the meditation centres it is because, as a disciple, to express the sense of internalised celebration has had other forms.

        When I lose contact with that sense of playful celebration, wearing a red robe could be an effective reminder.
        But wearing it in solitude might have the opposite effect, remembering the centriped thrusts of the heavier egos, able to dissolve the community born around Osho.

        MOD:
        centriped – meaning, please, Veet F?

        VEET F:
        @MOD@:
        Ooops…centripedal, like the strength of the washing machine.

        • Arpana says:

          “Docile”. Yes, V.F. Interestingly enough, that is the word I most use to describe you. (ツ)*

          Wearing the Mala and red clothes in the West was incredibly challenging for me; took every ounce of tenacity and grit I had in me to complete the task, as it were. Glad I did. I wouldn’t want to have to live with the sense of failure of not having been able to rise to that particular challenge.

          I still have insights come to me spontaneously about how wearing those accoutrements affected me; can still reflect on what I went through and learn. Extraordinary the impact on me for the better. Certainly I was at a point of no return when we collectively stopped; but the early days after that were overwhelming for me, because at points in that time I felt I had no corporeal existence anymore.

          But I gradually pulled myself together and continued to experience myself as being in a relationship with Osho, continued to experience myself as being a sannyasin of Osho; and still experience myself in a relationship with him as if he’s a flesh and blood human being I interacted with face-to-face regularly.

          MOD:
          * Please explain, Arps!

          ARPANA:
          Mod,
          Just tagging on a grin to, hopefully, let him know I’m pulling his leg a bit.

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Arpana, I wonder what aspect of your life was challenged, dressing in sannyasin way.

            In my case it was simply incompatible with my institutional job. I say it in a neutral sense, I would have to choose between the two things.

            But as far as my religious environment of origin is concerned, wearing red robe & mala would not have been neutral at all, but an opportunity to express all my anti-clericalism.

            • Arpana says:

              Put me in touch with every undealt with number about rejection, which in the moments I became aware was going on, caused me to reject myself for being hung-up about rejection. Took me a long time to face up to it.

              I was a left-wing, somewhat hedonistic intellectual, anti-religious, and the number of people who had time for me dropped by 90%. Had a massive identity crisis I suppose. Was as if I had died and entered limbo for a long time in the West. Was the only one of the sannyasin crowd I was involved with who had really gone into meditating, and continued to do so. Lonely road.

              No regrets. Radically improved my inner life, in the long run.

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                Thanks, Arpana, in my case my sense of unworthiness and relative wound of abandonment, made me have very rare friendships, my emotional centre were the girls with whom I lived brief and passionate love stories, many of them turning into friendships.

                The rule was that the more I had expectations towards my girlfriend or friend to take them into the world of Osho and more….

                MOD:
                Is this post finished, Veet F?

                VEET F:
                @MOD:
                Finished, like the four dots of suspension that avoid the superfluous.

        • @MOD
          Errata corrige
          I do not know how I could have confused centripetal with centrifuge; naturally I meant the latter…
          The events of Oregon have given an acceleration to a misunderstood need for emancipation from the Master, the will to hastily apply the prescription, “If you meet a Buddha, kill him.”

          Till today, Osho seems to easily counter these intentions, it is proof that its centripetal strength continues to attract newcomers and to retain in this Sangha even those who claim to have become masters of themselves.

  2. Lokesh says:

    The mala and orange clothes was an idea that Laxmi came up with. It was a clever gimmick, a trick or device intended to attract attention, and it worked. As the years passed, after the introduction of the mala, more and more superstition was poured into the idea. Hold the mala and you would be in direct contact with Osho. Of course, it was in essence bullshit, yet many of us believed in it all and as we believe so the world would appear, abracadabra, just like that.

    Osho presented me with a wee wooden box, containing nail clippings. I had a pouch made and, along with my mala, wore it round my neck imagining, it was transmitting cosmic vibes of the highest order. Makes me smile just to recall how wacky it all was. Oval malas turned into round ones, endowing the older oval malas with a certain status. What a joke. Osho had no time for belief in his own life, or so he said, yet he allowed all kinds of beliefs to go off big-time around him, especially if they contributed to the myth-making taking place around him.

    Decades passed and joining the sannyas club became for some a must do. I know a few people on Ibiza who joined the club after Osho was long gone because it was the in thing to do at the time and sannyasin women were always that bit more juicey. Hi, I’m Swami Adam. What you doing tonight?

    Osho declares, “As time passes by, a very meaningful ritual will become meaningless.” Pretty much true in my case. Thing is, it was great fun and I feel good to have been a part of such a crazy, wild, love-filled, dance-filled, friend-filled adventure. It is gone now and I am off to chop some firewood.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      To think that firewood warms more than Osho seems to me, Lokesh, a ‘hazard’.

      I did not write ‘bullshit’ because for a nihilist like you it’s like saying “wet” to a fish.

      Now I’m off, I light a candle in front of the stereo and watch Osho’s voice advance through the flame and reach my heart.

      • Lokesh says:

        Oh, I see. Now I am a nihilist. How could that be? I lead a life full of meaning. Although, I might add, I do not need to sit in front of a candle imagining that Osho’s voice is advancing through the flame to reach my heart. I do not indulge myself in spiritual fantasies.

        I am curious, Veet, have you ever tried ayahuasca? You will surprise me if you reply honestly and say you have tried it.

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          Lokesh, do you mean that you could not be surprised because right now you’re done by Ayuhuasca?

          Not in general, but about your role played in the Sangha reunited here, a little nihilist you are, in fact. Why cut wood should be less spiritual than listening to a 70s speech of Osho?

          MOD:
          Veet F, what do you mean by “you’re done by Ayuhasca”?

          VEET F:
          @MOD:
          I mean ‘stoned’, ‘into drugs’, ‘tripping on acid’.

          • Lokesh says:

            Sounds like you do not know how to give an honest answer to a straightforward question. To answer a question with a question sounds like avoidance on your part, Veet. That does not surprise me.

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Sorry, Lokesh, it was a ‘no’, never even been in Cuzco. Why is it so important? Don’t you like me sober?

              • Lokesh says:

                Thanks for a straight answer, Veet.
                You ask why it is so important. It’s not.

                You also ask, “Don’t you like me sober?”
                I do not know you well enough to like or dislike you, sober or otherwise.
                I suspect you suffer a little bit of an inferiority complex and that is about it.

                As for ayahuasca…well…makes me think of a Bob Dylan song………
                “But something is happening here
                And ya’ don’t know what it is
                Do you, Mister Jones?”

                • Arpana says:

                  “The more sane person will suffer from an inferiority complex, because he will look all around, will be available to all that is happening all around, and will start collecting ideas that he is inferior. But both are shadows of the ego, two sides of the ego. The superior person deep down carries the inferiority complex, and the person who suffers from inferiority complex deep down carries a superiority complex; he wants to be superior.”

                  Osho

                  The Book Of Wisdom
                  Chapter 19
                  Chapter title: The Three Rung Ladder Of Love

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  What sense of inferiority? I speak English better than you!

                  No, maybe you are referring to the fact that I feel like a parrot, a reader of Osho’s books struggling against the wise old sannyasins, those who know all the shit done and said by Osho and therefore have the right to remind me of their superiority.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Relevant quote from Arpana.

                • P.S:
                  Mr.Jones is gone (the link below), me not yet, not even you.
                  It’s a good song, thanks for the quote, Lokesh.

                  Btw, Mr Jones is a journalist who meets the social environment around B. Dylan asking “How does it feel to
                  be such a freak?”

                  My first connection was with another ‘freak’ song by Nick Cave (Lazarus), where also there someone thinks something similar with “I do not know what it is, but there’s definitely something going on.” But the atmosphere and the references of the song with real facts are much more uncertain and blurred.

                  It is normal to happen when you approach a new social context, then the newcomer can be welcomed or bullied. So if you say that I am not a freak who has never tried Amazonian Liana extract is correct. But if you think that Mala & Red Robe (being devotional) makes me a freak then among us the Mr. Jones is you.
                  https://theplaylist.net/entire-im-not-there-concert-streaming-20071126/

                  Another song about how one can approach a social context is that which I link to you below, because there are judgments that remain implicit in certain behaviours.
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9BEjwI5DJg

  3. satchit says:

    “The mala and orange clothes was an idea that Laxmi came up with.”

    Lokesh, seems you still believe in these old sannyas stories.
    I know only one person who was intelligent and brave enough to come up with this idea.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Your response (to Lokesh), Satchit: “I know only one person who was intelligent and brave enough to come up with this idea.”

      I would agree, adding though that the wisdom (not to have delusions about the immaturity of disciples on the way) is a living ´thing´, like Love is, and I would add as well thatthe Master as a living Presence is on His living way too.

      I´ve been glad that Lokesh came in the way he did; and mostly I understand interjections as a playful provocation.

      The now happening thread touching our own and also the so-called energetic surounding fields pointing at something one calls ´fanaticism´ (old and new, so to say). Fanaticism one is confronted with as well as the fanaticism inside of us.

      What I appreciated from Lokesh´s take was to point at that indeed nothing really matters (besides chopping wood in the NOW etc…).
      And simulaneously so much is triggered from the past, isn´t it?

      What I really would appreciate as well is that you guys would (or could?) stop your obviously ongoing hate speech about the female principles, either in yourself or as an outward projection on a woman, done with hostility quite often then, either ‘undercover’ or more openly.

      Yours sincerely,

      Madhu

  4. Kavita says:

    Thanks, SD & Arps, for keeping this torch of SN burning.

    Mala to me is something which I couldn’t relate to during my early sannyas days, somehow probably because when I took sannyas I wasn’t so fond of jewellery/anything, specially around my neck!

    The first few years of sannyas I hung it my room , then later I hung on the altar of our home & finally, when I read about its significance, kept it in my mother’s cupboard locker at home, since my cupboard didn’t have a locker!

    Later my mother took sannyas, she used to wear it for few years then she too put it on the altar. Later I put both of them in her locker.

    I just saw it ten days ago when I went to get my mother’s mala to put on her on her final journey.

    https://www.oshonews.com/2019/01/16/dhyan-aarti/

    • Arpana says:

      Big thing when your mum goes.
      You look after yourself now, Kavita/Deva Dilruba.

      Love,

      Arps

      • Kavita says:

        Somehow, I feel & think since she passed away in her sleep & also since it was mostly a loving time for both of us, I have taken it well. Luckily, it happened at home.

        She gave me taste of practical motherhood for two and a half years. We shared everything vocally & heartfully with each other all that was necessary. I only miss her physical presence at times but I do talk to her aloud & in my heart, whenever I need to. I am taking care of myself. Anyway, thanks, Arps, for your concern.

        SD, do find a way along with Jitendra (Clive ), we all can make our financial contribution for SN. I am sure we all together can pull this off.

    • satyadeva says:

      Major credit for keeping SN alive is to Clive (Jitendra) who took responsibility for all the site maintenance without which it would have sunk into oblivion. And paid the necessary dues, more of which are coming SN’s way fairly soon, btw.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Big Hug, Kavita

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Thank you for sharing, Kavita.
      Deep Hug.

      Saw the pic of your mother just now, waving a hand for a goddbye-hello -
      so sweet.

      With love,

      Madhu

  5. satchit says:

    OSHO ON THE MALA

    “You ask me, “Why this mala? Why this picture?”

    I don’t remember that he ever said that it was an intelligent way to find new customers.

    Girls did ask, “Who is this man on the picture?”
    And the answer was: “It is my master.
    I am a sannyasin and I will teach you bliss now.” :-)

  6. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    You say, Satchit, in response to the thread: “Girls did ask, “Who is this man on the picture?” And the answer was “It is my Master, I am a sannyasin and I will teach you bliss now.”

    Well – I met quite a few male sannyasina times and times ago who approached me as a woman (” girl”, you said) with such attitude. And the teaching I got by such approaches has been to avoid this kind of introduction.
    “Bliss”, btw, is one of the rare, very precious states of being which – in my experience – cannot be “taught” at all, but happens. Or – not.

    Belongs more to a state of grace, I´d say.

    Madhu

  7. satchit says:

    On neosannyas.org:

    The Final Message to the Academy of Initiation on Malas, 1989.

    Osho sends a message to the Academy of Initiation that there is no need to wear malas any more. Sannyas is about going inwards and nothing to do with the outer.

    Some people are upset, so it is taken in to Osho again and his response, passed on again to the Academy is: “If you must wear your mala, then at home in meditation only.”

    • Arpana says:

      Q: LAST NIGHT YOU RENOUNCED YOUR RAJNEESHISM AND THE RELIGION. BY EXTENSION ARE THERE NO LONGER SANNYASINS?

      A: No. Sannyasin is a totally different thing. It has nothing to do with Rajneeshism. Sannyas simply means they have accepted a way of meditation and a life of joy and rejoicing. It is accepting to create your life into a blissfulness. So Sannyas is a totally different thing. Sannyasins will continue.

      I have dropped all outer symbols of sannyasins. If they want to keep them, it is up to them. From my side I have dropped. They don’t need any mala. They don’t need red clothes. All that I would like…My advice to them, that if you are a sannyasin, that meditation is the only essential thing that you should carry.

      Osho
      The Last Testament, Vol 3, Chapter 11

    • Arpana says:

      Thirdly, I have changed. Now sannyasins will not be having any uniform, so that sannyas becomes available to many more people. Many intelligent people were simply prevented because of the red clothes – their jobs are there, their parents are there, their wife, their children, their friends, and everywhere they feel in a kind of embarrassment; the mala is no more needed it is all optional. You can use any colour, if you want you can use mala, if you don’t want you don’t need – only meditation remains the central core, which is something inner, which has nothing to do with outside.

      Osho
      The Last Testament, Vol 3, Chapter 17

  8. Arpana says:

    And more and more people can move. And now that I have allowed you can be a sannyasin without red clothes, you can be a sannyasin even without mala, more and more people…I have opened the doors, more and more people can come and be part of the commune. And slowly, if they feel like having malas and having red clothes, that is up to them. But there is no need to enforce anything.

    Osho
    The Last Testament, Vol 3, Chapter 26

  9. Arpana says:

    @Satchit 23 January, 2019 at 3:42 pm

    I have never made a decision in my life wasn’t followed by adverse and positive consequence.

    I have no regrets about getting involved with Osho, but I have been through hell at times, along with everything that has been so positive.

    I made a decision to get involved with Sannyas News. It’s been great fun and I’ve really enjoyed the involvement, and I’ve had my bloody cage rattled something rotten at times.

    I cannot believe this is only true of me.

    • satchit says:

      @ Arpana 6:18 pm.

      You said, “life is trial and error”.

      I have a different attitude: What shall be there to try?

      I say, relax – life is frustration. Either you don’t get what you want or you get it and you cannot hold it. Both is frustrating, but the inbuilt programme of life.

      So everybody creates the story of his life.

      • Arpana says:

        Congratulations on your being above the human condition

        • satchit says:

          Sorry, Arpana, I forgot. I also work with trial and error. When the noise is too loud in the night that I cannot sleep, then I put earplugs in my ears.

          Sometimes it helps, but one cannot rely on this.

          • satyadeva says:

            Have you tried silicone ear-plugs, Satchit? A local pharmacist urged me to try them instead of the wax versions a few months ago as I was being disturbed by a new person and her baby in the flat above mine, after having had no one up there for the previous three years. Worked like a dream, literally – no further problems at night, can’t even hear the clock ticking!

            • satchit says:

              Thanks for the tip, SD.

              Yes, a guy under my flat gets up at 5am to work.
              These things did not disturb me when I was younger.
              But comparing does not lead anywhere and things don’t become better the older one gets. Must be some ultimate law.

      • satyadeva says:

        Do you simply mean give up unrealistic expectations, Satchit?

        Although it’s unrealistic, surely, to give up going for what one wants, as that’s also inbuilt into our very lives, from getting and eating food to finding things to do, to finding a mate, and so on…Perhaps the ‘problem’ is expecting any or even all of our outer activities to provide permanent fulfilment?

        As the buddhists put it, ‘impermanence’ is the fundamental condition of our lives, isn’t it?

        • satchit says:

          Yes, it’s about impermanence and transitoriness.

          Fulfilment seems to be momentary, but the mind wants permanence. So better float from moment to moment without thinking much – cheers!

          • satyadeva says:

            Then there’s wanting and needing…The great sage Sir Michael Jagger offered some profound insight into this practical philosophical dilemma, of course, way back in the 60s…

            But was anyone truly listening?

            https://youtu.be/K0qnt5rTCoo

            • Arpana says:

              We sannyasins talk about, touch on the subject of what Sannyas is about, in distinction to what “not sannyas” is about, I suppose. And there’s one way of expressing, certainly an aspect of this, which is to say moving towards a needs-based life, without becoming unnecessarily an austerity freak, and away from a wants/ hedonism-based life. What say you, SD?

              • satyadeva says:

                Well, yes, Arps, wanting little or less from the ‘outside’ has to be a consequence of ‘seeking’ (and, hopefully ‘finding’) more of what’s real ‘inside’, doesn’t it?

                What were those famous words attributed to Jesus, something like “Seek the Kingdom of God and all else will be provided’?

                • Arpana says:

                  Interesting to make a connection to Christian text. I’ve had that happen.

                • Arpana says:

                  And on reflection, moving towards a life based on needs, rather than wants ‘happens’ rather than is actively pursued’; although I personally got on a big puritan trip initially, but that was in me anyway.

  10. shantam prem says:

    No one has the exact idea how many kinds of malas and how many kinds of sannyas certificates are distributed by various neo-priests working on behalf of their never born, never died, trademarked, departed great.

    Sorry, in the world of late Osho there are no priests and no politicians. These elite parasites are like everyday office girls earning some extra cash once a while. One should not call such girls-next-door as pros.

  11. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh sees the things always from his own perception, with the conviction perception is truth. Nothing wrong in this. It is USP of Sannyas from the days of its conception.

  12. shantam prem says:

    If Arpana wears the mala with his own locket, it will still create the same impact.
    Main thing is to look bit different than others in the tube. One gets energy!

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Welcome back, Shantam Prem, have you been to India recently? How is it there today wearing Mala & Red Robe in everyday life? It would be possible to work in a public or private context?

      • shantam prem says:

        Yes, Veet, I was in India for four weeks. Two weeks in Mumbai and Goa and two weeks in Chandigarh with my mother.
        Pune does not have the magnetic magic anymore, so I bypassed it.

        In Goa, there are minimum 1000 people in one or two persons schools teaching yoga, meditation, Tantra, Ayurvedic massage to western tourists, mostly women from East Ruropean countries. On one beach I met two Indian sannyasins, post-Osho´s demise, in this profession in their individual capacity.

        During my last evening at Chandigarh, when I went to buy over-the-counter medicines for my travel bag, one lady entered the shop few minutes later. She was wearing some kind of Mala, so out of curiosity I asked, “Excuse me, are you Osho sannyasin?”
        She was a bit surprised.
        I told her, “I am an Osho sannyasin visiting my mother, to see your mala I felt to ask.”
        She felt relived. Told her husband sitting outside in the car that Swami Ji is Bhagwan´s disciple and has lived in Pune.

        From the word “Bhagwan” it became clear, she must be from the school of Arunji or Osho´s brother running parallel show. The lady and her husband have taken sannyas from Arunji in Rishikesh but have not been to Nepal or Pune.

        Two minutes later, I said goodbye and went my way with the feeling, at least I have seen some sannyasins.
        More or less, Neo-Sannyas exists in the world as Orkut or Nokia! Because neo-sannyasins have uprooted the work planted by their late founder, so only synthetic spirituality kind of green grows on that space.

        • sw. veet (francesco) says:

          Ok, Shantam, but if for you it is possible that today some old disciple sells plastic flowers, after they have lived for years in the garden of the beloved, then you can not even rule out that some of the buyers may be disappointed and look for the authentic ones.

          If it were up to you what would be your way to cultivate the Garden?

          Give me a practical example:
          If a beautiful woman asked you to show her the Garden of the Beloved what would you choose: a book, a DVD or a Tantra session?
          I’m afraid that if it were up to you you would burn all the books (and maybe some parrot too).

          Hug

          • shantam prem says:

            Veet, I will give to any man or woman on the way to Osho, Osho Commune international, Pune. This is what dying old master created during his last years.

            Everybody has the right to create something out of his talks. Osho did it. If that is not worthy to keep in its original form, I care a damn about words.

            MOD;
            Last sentence: What do you mean exactly, Shantam?

    • satchit says:

      Yes, Shantam,
      Reminds me of the time when I lost my locket.
      Then I created my own locket with a Bhagwan pic and a mountain flower – it was fun. Anyway, one is alone responsible for what one does or does not.

      • Lokesh says:

        Satchit, are you sure the locket was all you lost?

        You say,”One is alone responsible for what one does or does not.” If you really consider that statement it cannot possibly be true. It is untrue on many different levels. You either understand that or you do not, which is obviously the case with you. If you do not understand that please do not ask me to explain.

  13. Lokesh says:

    What’s the difference between wearing a mala with Osho’s picture in a locket and a Catholic wearing a gold chain with a crucifix on it?

    • shantam prem says:

      Difference between Mala and Cross is, mala became the customer identification card of a short-lived company, Cross as identity survives and grows like Lidl.

      Even Putin, world´s most shrewd statesman, wears Cross.
      In Sauna I have seen many times German football coach, one of the most beautiful looking men, with Cross.

      When I go to church I also create symbol of Cross as a sign of respect for those ancestors who left behind such wonderful buildings for an Osho freak like me to meditate.

      I trust Christians more than Swamis. Mas are different, they are as good as nuns with joyful attitude.

      • anand yogi says:

        Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
        Mas are like Christian nuns with bad habits, no panties and electronic crucifix vibrators from LIDL ready to fall to their knees in front of true disciple from Jullundur and conduct correct Christian service!

        Whereas untrustworthy swamis who have abused the freedom that Osho has given them should wear cross like handsome true Yogi, Yogi Low, manager of football team, who looks like cross between David Bowie and Adolf Hitler!

        And high priests of Anti-Sannyas must be defrocked by new heroes of Sannyas such as Arpana and Veet, true Christians who have fallen at feet of Pope giving appropriate service for decades and now bringing same kind of disciplehood to Saint Osho!

        Their tireless work will enable SannyasNews to achieve level of Facebook with cut-and-paste spiritual fan club material, Christmas cracker wisdom and videos by snake-oil psychologists and meditative role models such as Depeche Mode etc. that delighten and enlighten the chosen few!

        It is indeed sad that Shantambhai has long been usurped in his previously undisputed role as master village idiot by the very swamis he so rightly despises!

        They have been close to completing Osho`s work as set down by previous contributors on SN who realised that Osho`s devices were a device to get rid of all peripheral disciples such as the high priests of Anti-Sannyas, big-headed Scotsmen, egotists, ex-sannyasins, egotists, people with egos, egomaniacs, bitter Caledonians,
        big-headed egotists from north of the border, Scotchmen and unconscious baboons from the Glasgow area etc., leaving just the true disciples who have weathered the storm and heroically stuck to their posts at their PCs, making sure that the world can see the true legacy of Osho`s vision:
        Random uploads from youtube intersprersed with corny advaitic homilies and proclamations of absolute devotionalism in the face of no real challenge whatsoever!

        To return to the subject of the thread, western baboons, who have not been brought up in the mighty land of sacred Bhorat from which all wisdom originated, will not be aware that the technology in malas was developed in ancient Bhorat many yugas ago by Vedic scientists for contact between sages and between masters and disciples long before mobile phones were invented! And the malas were all hands-free!

        The Moksha helpline was always busy:
        “All our gurus are busy helping someone else at the moment. Your enlightenment is important to us, please hold the line, your expected waiting time is…84000 yugas.”

        Swami Bhorat tells me that they had apps for speaking with one`s previous incarnations as well as Akashik hotlines and Khajuraho XXXX numbers for the truly spiritually inclined such as Shantambhai!

        I must dash now and check the messages on my mala – and remember, all that I have said will be known, and more that I have not said will be known also.

        Yahoo!
        Hari Om!

        • Arpana says:

          Your soooo cruel, Yogi.

          • Lokesh says:

            Well, Arpana, Yogi succeeds in nailing you to a cross of your own making and he does it in a light-hearted and compassionate way. I do not see that as cruel. Quite compassionate in a way.

            • Arpana says:

              You remind me of a self-important, knowing, teenage prefect.

              MOD:
              Edited (gratuitous personal abuse)

              • Lokesh says:

                It’s just a reflection, Swami.

                • Arpana says:

                  Lokesh, I do not think you are wrong. I think you are a sentimentalist, indulging in sentimental fantasies about Ibiza and your cronies. Walking with your cronies by your side. You are no different from a Christian walking with Jesus by their side. Your cronies actually think you’re a self-deluding tosser.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Click…click…click…
                  It’s that stuck record again, playing that same old song by Harpie and The Reflections.

            • Arpana says:

              You are such a joke. You’ve accused me of being a Catholic sannyasin and on another occasion said I wasn’t a sannyasin because I didn’t talk like a sannyasin. ROTFLMAO.

              • satyadeva says:

                Arps, suppose you forgot about the identity of ‘being a sannyasin’, even being Osho’s disciple. How would that affect your response to Lokesh, do you think?

                • Arpana says:

                  Actually, I’ve had a bit of an epiphany, because plainly he is a sannyasin. In fact, I may even have bitten myself on the bum over this, but I haven’t quite worked out the actual details; so I don’t really care if he’s a sannyasin or not, as it happens, because I just don’t evaluate people in those terms. (He laughs ruefully).

                  I am fortunate in knowing people from all walks of life, who I am glad to know. My elderly neighbours left school when they were 15. They are what is called working-class British. They know nothing about art or meditation, they are not highly educated and I love them to bits, I don’t know what I would do without them.

                  My ill will towards him is fuelled by his conceit, and you must concede, he swings between his being above all this crap, “I don’t need this crap”, yet is always the first to start whingeing when things go quiet; and on the other hand, lording it over the place because he believes himself to be the only sannyasin, and he quite plainly believes only his life’s experience has any value.

                  I had never come across negativity and denigration of Osho and Sannyas until I started posting at Sannyas News, which is what, about 5 or 6 years ago. And in one way I’m even grateful for it because I have moved on about where I was at about Sannyas, but the routine denigration from Lokesh and his ilk has changed nothing about how I feel about Osho, absolutely nothing. My regard for him is undented.

                  The very idea that I would stop tuning into what Osho’s got to say and put Lokesh in his place! Tell him to grow up.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Osho is important to me, and I will not stay quiet when a coward who ran away when the going got tough and then tries to set himself above us and quite plainly at times over Osho, belittles him and those of us to whom Osho is important.”

                  Arps, I believe you’ve seriously misinterpreted Lokesh’s life and sannyas history, according to what I recall he’s related about that period. But I’ll leave that to him to clarify.

                  And I don’t experience him as coming across as ‘superior’, rather as someone who’s made his own way and has interesting things to say.

                  As a spectator of this ongoing mutual sniping that’s lasted for a few years now, it seems to me, Arps, that your negative perception of Lokesh is dominated by purely personal concerns, which (besides the inherent difficulty of being limited by a purely words-on-internet-based relationship) implies that you don’t necessarily see him as he actually is.

                  Perhaps – and no judgment here, by the way – the key issue here is ‘need’, in that you have absolutely needed and still need Osho, in an extremely intimate sense, even perhaps as a small child needs his parent, while Lokesh, apparently, although he too ‘surrendered’ for many years, doesn’t. So you deeply resent anything resembling criticism of or even a more ‘casual’ attitude towards Osho, as it hits that incredibly tender spot in you, as if threatening your ongoing ‘rebirth’, as it were; perhaps – or so it seems – even at times your very being.

                  Isn’t that why you can’t let it go, it feels too close to the bone, to where you live (or think you live)?

                  Is this true for you? If so, seeing the whole picture, would it be possible to let go of ‘locking yourself in’ to such a pointless conflict? Pointless because nothing is achieved, no one is ‘winning’, and by persisting you come across as a sort of ‘slave’ of your emotions, not their master).

                • satyadeva says:

                  Thing is, my impression is that Lokesh is not a malevolent type at all, but he appears so to you, needing, as you do, to maintain this precious connection with the reflection of your deepest being, Osho, the one who for you has ‘midwifed’ your inner processes all these years. All that I really do get, Arps.

                  But on another level these instinctive negative reactions are the very stuff of conflicts of belief, religious and otherwise, that have made countless millions of lives a misery for so long, and might wipe us all out in due course. Why carry on such a burden?

                • Arpana says:

                  SD,

                  I am a pluralist. I really enjoy being in situations where diverse people put in their differing opinions without sliding into one-upmanship.

                  The story about the blind men and the elephant sums up my attitude.

                  We all get to see a little bit of what life is, filtered through what it is to be human, and at best we get to share those perceptions and build a bigger picture.

                • Arpana says:

                  @ SD,
                  Re Lokesh:
                  “that you don’t necessarily see him as he actually is.”

                  The reverse is true.

                  Now about you, SD.

                  You strike me as a decent, down-to-earth, straightforward individual, with some integrity and capacity for honest self-appraisal, even if I have been pissed of with you recently. Am I wrong, SD? Do I not see you as you are? Am I projecting onto you?

                  I would not use any of those adjectives to describe Lokesh.

                  In the early days of Sannyas I saw Osho, when I pictured him, as so far above me; and if I picture myself with him now, and I can actually picture myself with him, I am walking quietly by his side, just being with him, as one human being with another; as I might walk next to you, although you and I would be talking to each other. And I’m still pretty certain Osho has some insight into life that I don’t have, so I still feel I can learn something from him; and equally, I continue to learn from people I enjoy being around, who I respect and have some regard for.

                  Am I wrong?

                  Allow me to assure you I do not like and respect everybody I meet. In my everyday life I do come across people I wouldn’t allow near me.

                  Am I wrong?

                  There are people who post here, who came to Sannyas long after me, and they say interesting things and I feel respect for them. Warm to them, get the idea that in real life I might enjoy their company, and to enjoy the company of anybody they have to be intelligent and decent and down-to-earth and straightforward, for me that is.

                  Am I wrong?

                • satyadeva says:

                  “You strike me as a decent, down-to-earth, straightforward individual, with some integrity and capacity for honest self-appraisal, even if I have been pissed of with you recently. Am I wrong, SD? Do I not see you as you are? Am I projecting onto you?

                  I would not use any of those adjectives to describe Lokesh.”

                  I’ll take that description, thanks, Arps, although that’s only part of the picture, of course (the ‘nice’ bits, acceptable to one’s partner’s parents, you know!).

                  But in fact I’d absolutely disagree with not applying similar traits to Lokesh.

                  A prime instance of you not seeing him as he is (or rather, as he appears to be here at SN – imho).

                • Lokesh says:

                  Good post, SD, and I daresay there are a few elements of truth in what you say about Arpana.

                  I have said enough about my past on SN and do not feel the need to clarify anything on that level.

                  it all boils down to is that how people react towards you is their karma, and how you respond in turn is your karma. If you want clarity, there it is, courtesy of Buddha.

                • satchit says:

                  SD, even a blind man sees that it is an ego-fight. One says Osho is in my heart – the other says you have to drop Osho.

                  The two shall never meet.

                • satyadeva says:

                  I wouldn’t call it an “ego fight”, Satchit, more like two different worlds, different histories, different circumstances, different modes of being. As Lokesh suggests, different karmas.

                  Some might even say different states of consciousness, but I wouldn’t know about that.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Arpana, I do not think you are wrong. I think you are a sentimentalist, indulging in sentimental fantasies about Osho. Walking with Osho by your side. You are no different from a Christian walking with Jesus by their side. Osho was dead against that sort of emotional mind-set. He was also not sentimental, or so he claimed.

                  I think what Osho wished for is that his disciples learned to stand on their own two feet and embrace their aloneness. Perhaps your next Osho book cover post could be ‘Flight of the Alone to the Alone’.

                  Really, man, it’s all this superstitious sentimentality that has enslaved man since the beginning of time. As Osho so rightly said, ‘To live in the memories, to live in the imagination, is to live in the non-existential.’ Arpana, your relationship with Osho exists only in your imagination. That’s why Osho said that all relationships with him were one-sided. You’re reading the wrong quotes, man.

                • Arpana says:

                  There is life outside Ibiza and your fawning cronies, Lokesh.

              • Lokesh says:

                Arpana, you need to go to Confession more often to unburden your self. Say 108 ‘Hail Oshos’ on your mala.

                P.S: I am writing to you from Glasgow, where I am attending a skinhead festival in George’s Square.

                • satchit says:

                  “Arpana, I do not think you are wrong. I think you are a sentimentalist, indulging in sentimental fantasies about Osho. Walking with Osho by your side. You are no different from a Christian walking with Jesus by their side. Osho was dead against that sort of emotional mind-set. He was also not sentimental, or so he claimed.”

                  Whom do you want to befool, Lokesh?

                  Certainly you think Arpana is wrong because he is a “sentimentalist”.
                  And you know from Osho as a model how to behave.

                  Sorry, I think you have missed His message.

                • Lokesh says:

                  It’s the bovver boots and braces that count, mate. Be quiet and do your ‘Hail Oshos’.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yeah, Satchit, you are correct. I missed Osho’s message. You can rest easy now.

                • satchit says:

                  @ Lokesh
                  I don’t believe you that you have missed the Message.
                  A. plays only more with imagination than you.

                • Levina says:

                  Arpana is more bhakti inclined,and Lokesh more jani? If that is so,why fight about it?

                • Arpana says:

                  @satchit . 28 January, 2019 at 6:48 am

                  Arpana thinks in pictures (Imagination); and is aware of this; and then can use words to articulate what those internal images tell him.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Satchit says, “Sorry, I think you have missed His message.”
                  Then Satchit says, “I don’t believe you that you have missed the Message.”
                  You can draw your own conclussions from that.

                  Arpana, when you have people like Satchit supporting your viewpoint you have to realize there is something not quite right going on.

                • satchit says:

                  Lokesh mentions:

                  “Satchit says, “Sorry, I think you have missed His message.”
                  Then Satchit says, “I don’t believe you that you have missed the Message.”
                  You can draw your own conclussions from that.”

                  Conclusion is simple, Lokesh:
                  We live in a madhouse!

                  Btw, I’m a supporter of you too. Hail, Loco!

                • satchit says:

                  “Arpana thinks in pictures (imagination); and is aware of this; and then can use words to articulate what those internal images tell him.”

                  Yes, I thought so.
                  It is a conscious thing, not a sentimental dreaming. But besides, you have your analytical mind too?

                • Lokesh says:

                  ROTFLMAO?
                  Obviously does not take much to make Arpana laugh. Just goes to show that old saying is true. Simple things amuse…Great Scottish band.

                • Arpana says:

                  @satchit 28 January, 2019 at 6:34 pm

                  My analytical mind, if you will, translates the pictures, which are coherent and lucid to begin with.

                  The analytical works for the pictorial, not the other way round, although there is a two way process up to a point. (If I am working on a painting I picture what I might do, and if that feels right I do it). Everything has to feel right as well.

                  I can give people directions by inwardly looking up into the right side of my head and bring a map into my imagination, and then use the map to direct them, for example.

                  I had an image in my imagination which represents you, and while I was typing the response I was actually addressing, talking as it were, to the symbol of you in my head at that moment, about which symbol I feel ok, so that also affects my responses.

                  You perceived some of this, broadly speaking. Explain to me the process whereby you came to this.

                • satchit says:

                  @arpana

                  Whereby I came to this? It’s intuition.

                  I don’t sense you as someone who is the victim of his imagination. So it must be the other way around.

        • Lokesh says:

          Yogi, absolutely right on the dinero. Very witty and funny. Love the way you get your message across in such a playful way. Turbans off to you, man.

        • Welcome back to us, Anand Yogi, although I suspect that at your age you have never strayed too far from the PC, since you always come to the rescue of Lokesh, or cheap iconoclasts like him, when he is in crisis of arguments, that in his case then coincide with identity crisis: no longer sannyasin, not yet ex-sannyasin.

          If your brain between a fart and another could think, what arguments would you use to say that it’s idiotic to put Osho’s teaching at the centre of your life?

          What is your alternative today, or is your cynicism just the stupid attempt to hide that you do not have any?

          MOD:
          Post edited (overdone obscenity and gratuitous abuse).

          • Arpana says:

            VF,
            This is a joke. English humour. He’s hilariously funny to Brits.

          • Lokesh says:

            “a cheap iconoclast”
            Gee whizz. First time anyone ever called me that.
            I suppose Osho was an expensive iconoclast. Perhaps for pendejos he was a sheep iconoclast. A real bah bah.

            • sw. veet (francesco) says:

              Remember, Lokesh, who you were before meeting Osho, then when you have finished kissing his feet we can find a common point of conversation.

              In other words, I am already quite bored by my ego.

              • Lokesh says:

                “I am quite bored with my ego.” That is a good one, Veet.

                Perhaps I have asked you before, I can’t remember: Did you ever actually meet Osho, as in sit down in front of him and have a wee chat?

                • No, Lokesh, I had to wait too long, before his feet dried out your saliva, but it was too late.

                • Lokesh says:

                  As far as I know, Osho was not very comfortable with people kissing his feet. I certainly didn’t, out of respect, and I never felt it was the right thing to do. Bowed down at them many times, out of gratitude.

                  I can’t really imagine how it must be for someone who never actually met Osho to see their self as his disciple. In saying that, I have felt deep connections with people I never actually met and learned from them. Maybe it’s a bit like that.

                  Then again, imagination is a very powerful force: you imagine me having an identity crisis…just the expression ‘identity crisis’ makes me smile…it sounds absurd…as does much of what you have to say, especially in relation to your ideas of what being a sannyasin means; it’s cult stuff, you know. Look at poor Arpana….he has brainwashed himself. Osho did not do that to him, he managed that all by himself. Oh oh, here comes another Osho book cover…or maybe just an Osho quote.

                  You are bored with your ego – on one level I know what you mean and on another I just think…well, let’s leave it to Arpana to find a relevant quote.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        I feel the bitterness in your words, SP; the reason could be that meditating in India is much easier?

        Or does it depend on the fact that the Mala has a lower melting point than the Cross?

        • Arpana says:

          VF,
          Shantam has stated very clearly he thinks Osho to be wrong about making use of meditation.

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Do you mean explicitly, Arpana?
            Or is it your inference?

            • Arpana says:

              Explicitly, V.F.

              In English he’s ‘taking the piss’.
              To Brits, he’s so funny, he’s not offensive. British – male on male, mostly – humour.

              He’s pulling our legs. He knows, that we know, that he knows, we know he’s funny, and that just eggs him on.

              Perfect use of the word ‘cheap’, by the way.

              • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                English humour:
                It has a unique setting, which at first may seem puzzling. Heavy self-irony, almost imperceptible sarcasm and an impassive attitude can make English humour seem like a totally new language.

                Sarcasm:
                Bitter or caustic irony, expression of personal dissatisfaction or complacency in humiliating others.

                Arpana, are you the guarantor of people afflicted by superiority complex about their intentions not to humiliate others?

          • shantam prem says:

            Arpana,
            Come out from your fanatic perception about Osho and his doomed cult?
            Show me one sentence out of thousands which implies the nonsense you have written:
            “Shantam has stated very clearly he thinks Osho to be wrong about making use of meditation.”

            As far as meditation is concerned, its effect is too much over-hyped, mostly by those people who have no considerable experience about meditation.

    • Lokesh says:

      Arpana, lighten up, darling.

  14. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    “I can’t really imagine how it must be for someone who never actually met Osho to see their self as his disciple. In saying that, I have felt deep connections with people I never actually met and learned from them. Maybe it’s a bit like that.”

    Excuse my lack of sense of humour, Lokesh, but here are you serious or you playing at imitating Osho, with his contradictions, even if unlike the Master your communication can not cross the boundaries of your egocentrism?

    What you communicate with these words seems that you can learn and have a deep connection with someone you have never met, but this is precluded to me.

    And do not twist the meaning of what I wrote, you know well what I mean by “identity crisis”.

    It will seem absurd to you my way of being sannyasin but you have not yet said what is your criterion for defining yourself “ex-sannyasin”, being projected to question my definition of being “sannyasin”.

    • Lokesh says:

      Veet, I do not have a criterion for defining what represents a sannyasin or ex-sannyasin. The idea simply does not register with me. This ex-sannyasin bullshit is something Arpana keeps coming away with…you know, like he is a real sannyasin. What a load of nonsense.

      I am not twisting your words. The expression ‘identity crisis’ has a consensual meaning, of course. The thing is, having studied Gurdjieff for decades, I have learnt that man has no clear-cut identity. Man’s name is legion. Be honest with yourself. Do you really believe that you are communicating from a central ‘I’, or have you come to realize you are made up of many ‘Is’, one day saying this, the next day saying something else and all claiming to be you? Such is our state.

      Then we have wallys like Satchit, claiming responsibility for everything that is happening in their life, when in fact we are created by many people and things, our parents, our social environment, the period in history we are born into…the list goes on.

      Meanwhile, the great illusion that we exist as a central ‘I’ continues, and hence the state of the world that we live in today. The whole world is in a state of identity crisis.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        So, Lokesh, there will be no identity crisis when your ‘I sannyasin’ will be in charge again?

        Or is this phenomenon (shifting of I) the consequence of your choice to apply the ontology of Gurdjieff, then reversible?

        If it is true what not only Gurdjieff says (“The ego is not the master in his house” (Freud) then why not go back to applying the old guy’s ontology, going beyond the mind, becoming the witness of your legion?

        • Lokesh says:

          Oh oh, back to the old watcher in the hills. Veet, you are kidding yourself if you think it is that simple…in fact being the great witness might amount to nothing more than a state of super egohood. Suggested reading.

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Ah, ok, Lokesh…I did not expect you to follow Arpana’s example by recommending a book, anyway, thank you, I’m going to buy it right away.

            After all, even this does not seem too complicated, I read it and I become a small head like you.

            • shantam prem says:

              At Lokesh´s recommendation I have bought this too, a year or two before. It must be lying on some shelf.
              There was no temptation to read mind of others who are more brainwashed than me. At least my powder was the latest formula.

              • satyadeva says:

                “There was no temptation to read mind of others who are more brainwashed than me.”

                Seems like the convenient rationalisation of a closed-off mind that fears a threat to its habitual beliefs and habits, Shantam.

                It’s a great book that undermines common misconceptions about ‘the spiritual path’, perhaps even one that you might well actually enjoy, believe it or not!

                • sw. veet (francesco) says:

                  You too, SD, like Lokesh, are you attracted to Masters who drink, make car accidents and then talk about Karma?

                • satyadeva says:

                  No, I’m not, Veet, except as an entertainment.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Actually read a chapter in ‘Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism’ last night. It is still a good book. I returned to the chapter on the six realms. One of the things that I find interesting about it is that it uses the bardos as something that happens in our life today as opposed to the after-death state. Next time you feel boxed-in you will recall the monkey fighting with the walls of his prison. Liberating reading that can be applied to one’s day-to-day life.

                  Then there is the witness…the watcher that Osho spoke so much about. His realm is infinite…or is it just another illusion, a super ego trip? Read on.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Veet, nobody needs to ask you if you are attracted to a master who was hooked on laughing gas and valium, squandered his communes funds on fancy cars and watches, and talked about karma, because we already know the answer.

            • Lokesh says:

              Just the title is worth it. Some nuggets in it also. The chapter about the lokas can be read over and over again…a real jewel.

              I also produced a track called ‘Chogyam’s Trumpet’. Might not be your style.
              https://soundcloud.com/luke-mitchell/chogyams-trumpet

  15. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    A very “madhouse” – more than less happening here the last few days, so much violence and verbal abuse included.
    Stuck in the pain-chain, its layers of costumes, its masquerades – and here, its
    (verbal) weapons. And seemingly no way out (?).

    The mala and the initiation is described by the quote metaphorically as a key, a key to a gate, one is passing through – IF that happens – and it will always happen by grace, I say and never happens by whatsoever violence!

    We find one of the parts of the thread´s quote, reminding us:
    “As times passes by, a very meaningful ritual will become meaningless, because keys are lost and no one can say why this ritual exists.”

    Even though the relative truth is very obvious by now, that most of the rituals have a tendency to become meaningless in the course of time, I´d suggest that the topic itself is touching the Timeless Wisdom of the metaphors “Key” and “Gate”.

    These are big words, so easy to misunderstand a metaphor, misunderstanding leading then to obnoxious, idiotic fights and quarrels, inner and outer war scenes.

    So painful to watch it here, even on a viral plane.

    Madhu

    P.S:
    Recommended read: ‘The Cosmic Madhouse’, testimonial by Satyananda in the late 70s, which is now translated in your mother tongue.

    • satchit says:

      Madhu, you take things too seriously.
      The story goes about living in the madhouse, but not being part of it.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        You´re ´parroting’ here, Satchit.
        Not really knowing a thing; and you don´t do that for the first time here, addressing me.
        Off the joke, I´d respond.
        And don´t you come again with a Fritz Perls quote – to hold your line!

    • Lokesh says:

      SN is in tune with the times, because the world is a madhouse. Personally, I enjoy it.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        https://youtu.be/IdA337TZBfQ
        That´s for you at this point, Lokesh! Shedding some light on your personal enjoyment at 11.00 am today.

        • Lokesh says:

          Madhu, what other point is there, other than this one?

          I followed the youtube link. Watched it for 30 seconds. Having just returned from a local market and gathering of friends I have heard enough words for today. Thanks anyway.

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          P.S. (evening) for Lokesh:

          Wouldn´t be not that bad to watch more than just the 30 seconds (you mentioned) of the meeting-youtube-vid I recommended to you.

          But ´anyway´ (again) thanks again to you too….

  16. shantam prem says:

    Osho´s sannyasin!
    Many times when I sneeze, I say “Osho”.
    After spending 10 minutes in 80 degrees Sauna room, under the cold shower, first words are “Osho, Osho.”
    Sometimes “OOMmm!”

    In church, I am well aware not to say “Osho” to express silence but “Beloved God” or “Jesus”.
    It is really not polite to be with Sunita and say, “Anita Anita!”
    Inner expressions have their own etiquettes!

    • Lokesh says:

      Osho sounds to me like a brand of washing powder….you know, brainwashes better than ever before.

    • anand yogi says:

      Perfectly correct, Shantambhai!
      I also learned from brahmins sitting on banks of mighty Ganga at Benares to enunciate “Hari Om” whilst burping. And also to “eeeuoomm” whilst squatting for early morning ablutions!

      It is part of heritage of mighty Bhorat to remember the absolute at all times and I am glad to hear you are keeping enormously meaningful rituals alive as per the guidelines!

      Yes, as you make clear, it is very necessary to use local religious terminology in interaction with locals to avoid conflict and misunderstanding; for example, whilst rubbing oil into back of handsome, hunky football manager with ripped sixpack in naked sauna by exclaiming: “Jesus Christ, Yogi, look at the size of that thing!”

      Btw, I have posted book cover that Arpana forgot to post.

  17. madhu dagmar frantzen says:

    @ Satyadeva,

    Thanks for bringing some OXYGEN into sticky caravanserai nooks and corners today, Satyadeva.
    Some breathing(s) (for the time being…) had the chance to happen.
    Urgently needed so far….

  18. Ok, Satyadeva, let’s follow the example, let’s enter Lokesh mode!

    You, SD (I start with the first pendejo that karma puts in front of me) drop your sentimental story of avoiding religious wars!!!
    What’s wrong with the war?
    What is your tender need for peace – fear of war rapes?
    Do you think you deserve a better death?
    Do you really think that there will be someone in the big scheme (wait, how is it that says el Loco..?) of the millennial human evolution who will notice the difference of before and after you (maybe I should say an idiot like you)?

    How was it, I was credible as cheap (tequila) iconoclasta?

    • P.S:
      I’m sorry if I embarrassed you, SD, but for me you were indulgent with Lokesh at least as much as you were severe with Arpana, and it should not surprise you that the Sangha binds in a different way than a Pub.

    • satyadeva says:

      Seems as if you’re writing garbage for the sake of writing garbage, Veet. Just self-indulgent claptrap that (probably wilfully) misses my point entirely.

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        You are the ones who can influence the direction of the applause and the whistles (disapproval).

        Actually, I had put the second ones into account, but only if you had reacted to the fact that I had caught your point.

        Anyway, I’m used to the whistles and the censorship on SN, but as your friend would say: I do not give a shit.

        • satyadeva says:

          Veet F, you appear to confuse the long-standing SN policy of keeping the dialogues free from gratuitous abuse with “censorship”. Just as in Parmartha’s time, there are no ‘favourites’, this guideline applies to everyone, including you and me. Whether you agree or not (or feel ‘persecuted’) is not the point, it’s applied to everyone.

          I might also add that it’s not always an easy decision, there’s often enough a fine line between ‘honesty’, ‘freedom of expression’ and ‘gratuitous abuse’.

          Might as well mention here that the other main ‘rule’, ie keeping to the topic (as far as reasonably possible), has been relaxed recently due to the lack of articles in the pipeline. Although another one, from Shantam, will be put up in the next couple of days. And soon an address to send articles to will be finalised so perhaps more will begin to flow.

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Well, if you understood my point I would trust you, SD, in your ability to be fair.

            For example, those times that some commentator, who pretends to be above all community needs, ridiculing the needs of others, is exposed in his inconsistent cowardice, you try to not have a beta male reflex, going to his rescue.

            It can not be so bad to take some affectionate slap on the shiny head; at which point you should not allow yourself or others to hide behind a nickname to use an abusive language (I do not care if gratuitous or not), as ‘Christian village idiot’ referred to those who are slapping the superman.

            But if my idiocy here is to believe that “all sannyasins are welcome” then I can adapt and follow the motto that inspires the person who writes most of all us on SN: ‘arrogance pays’.

            If so, I’m ready to play, I will not let you down.

            • satyadeva says:

              As I said, Veet, it’s not always easy to decide what to edit (and we do it as little as possible) and of course there’s a risk of offending people who find perfectly valid reasons for being ‘offensive’.

              But Parmartha was determined that SN should not deteriorate into a ‘no holds barred’, encounter group-type scenario, and that intelligent, responsible discussion should be the norm, not the exception. We’re simply carrying on this general policy.

              As for your suggestion to me (2nd parag.), like anyone else, including you, I’m free to comment where and how I wish (within the aforementioned general guidelines).

          • swami anand anubodh says:

            SD,

            SN has an archive going back 10 years with probably enough articles to fill all the empty seats in the Emirates Stadium on Europa league nights.

            Maybe some of them (if they have not been dated by events) could be re-visited.

            May help if you need to keep things ticking over.

            • satyadeva says:

              That’s a useful suggestion, thanks, Anubodh.

              P.S:
              Your Emirates Stadium reference has got me thinking…Arsenal do support worthy community projects so I might see if SN can land a sponsorship deal with the club to help keep us afloat.

              • swami anand anubodh says:

                A sponsorship deal with a Premier league club.

                The no mind boggles….

                • satyadeva says:

                  As would Harry’s, I reckon, Anubodh!

                  MOD:
                  SD’s referring to Harry Kane, the renowned (but not re-named – yet) English footballer pictured here. Lovely lad too, btw….

  19. shantam prem says:

    Sw. Veet (Francesco),
    Please, tell honestly one thing: How many hours, days, months or years you have spent around alive Osho or his living community?

    One can create meaningful communication when we know from where others are coming. There is one man at facebook who writes so much poetry about Osho. In his view, Osho´s work is infinite, it is expanding and expanding. During one discussion few days ago, I asked, Swami ji, may I know how many days you have spent around Osho or in His commune? There is no answer till now.

    This man was not baby during Osho´s lifetime. He must be around 60. What I guess is, he started watching Osho´s videos and fell in love with the high class oratory.

    As we all know, life is much more than oratory. Osho has not sold himself as Elvis Presley of pop spirituality.

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      SP, I am in communion with Osho and his people from the early 90s, but one of his books and his smile had already awakened in me the Buddha/Master a decade before.

      You see? Someone needs a smile or a sentence and someone else needs all the real estate, especially the sauna.

      Btw, even for me there are unclear things in the current management of Pune; I say this based on the parameters opposed to those used by people here with limited ability to judge…but I do not even apply your parameters, it’s just that they are the majority, and even a broken clock 2 times a day tells the truth.

  20. frank says:

    Levina says:”Arpana is more bhakti inclined,and Lokesh more jani? If that is so,why fight about it?”

    See,since Big P, the guv`nor (see book cover pic for relevant reading material) moved on, a bit of a turf war has broken out. The Birmingham beer boys have teamed up with some wannabee cosa nostras to try and oust the Glasgee razor boys. It`s turned pretty nasty, Slasher Deva has been called in to quell the rival factions -he`s a very reasonable bloke and all, but you don`t want be around when his fuse finally melts and blows, for sure.

    The thing is, boys will be boys, and monkeys will fight for turf, bananas and females of the species – but adult humans take it one further by fighting about about imaginary bananas, carrots, enlightenment, God and suchlike as well – it makes the game that little bit more interesting, adds a bit of spice to the aggro.
    Kicking ass for the Ultimate is well…the ultimate hit.

    You mention jnanis and bhaktis – check the history, it`s no coincidence that both sides all went for skinhead haircuts. You`ve got the Hari Krishna types chanting mindlessly on one side and Ramana and LBW Papaji closely cropped on the other. A right religious old ruck is absolutely inevitable.

    As Freddie N, Osho`s fave philosopher said: “War is essential. It is vain rhapsodizing and sentimentality to continue to expect much (even more, to expect a very great deal) from mankind, once it has learned not to wage war.”

    And Heraclitus: “War is the father and king of all.”

    And Zorba: “Life is trouble. Only death is not. To be alive is to undo your belt and look for trouble.”

    It may be difficult to understand.
    It is a paradox that maybe can only be understood by slipping on a pair o` Docs.

    • Arpana says:

      Welcome back, Frank.Yay!!!!

    • sw. veet (francesco) says:

      Yes, Frank, “Osho`s fave philosopher” means that Mr. Freddie could, on an existential level, not be a fox, knowing how to distinguish between pacifism and non-violence, or victims, tyrants and saviours.

      Imo, the symbolic/initiating war of the Zarathustra who asks obedience to death of his soldiers is the reaction to the abuses of the castrating Christian/Jewish morality:
      “You must seek your enemy, fight your war, and this for your ideas! And if your idea succumbs, your righteousness cry out to triumph!” F.N.

      In reality, the war has so many asymmetrical fields that the borders can not be defined. Easier to identify the boundaries of the conflicts triggered by the reaction to the abuses, while the war is always declared by the stronger one, or supposing be so.

      But if someone believes in Karma, since he has been chosen by God (who often looks very much like his own ego) then we just have to try and defend ourselves.

      Do you understand the stakes?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5kfE5uDEBY

    • Levina says:

      Yes, Frank, where would we be without the trouble of making every fact into a problem? We would have the problem on our hands that there is nothing to discuss and worry about…the emptiness…now that would be a real problem…Thanks to God, through Frank we have humour to laugh at outselves and make it more bearable!

  21. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    “Veet, nobody needs to ask you if you are attracted to a master who was hooked on laughing gas and valium, squandered his commune’s funds on fancy cars and watches, and talked about karma, because we already know the answer.”

    Sorry if I did it, and hurt you, Lokesh.

  22. Lokesh says:

    “I’m sorry if I embarrassed you, SD.”
    “Sorry if I did it, and hurt you, Lokesh.”

    Veet, for a start, you are not in the least bit sorry. What you are doing here is presuming your words have a far higher emotional impact upon others than they actually have. It is as well a simplistic form of goading, which is not in the least amusing.

    It is also an unsophisticated game you are playing and most of the other commentators on this site, apart from lightweights like Satchit, will be well aware of what you are up to.

    I wonder if it ever occurs to you that being so shallow might make you appear to others that you are out of your depth, something I am sure you would not wish, because you have a young man’s need to impress and you are not succeeding in that at all.

    • satchit says:

      You see Veet, here you can learn a lot about your inferiority complex, if you have one.

      Old Lokesh plays the heavyweight Champion, means superiority complex. Don’t be deceived by his words,
      they mean nothing. Just relax in your true being and enjoy the laughter.

      • Lokesh says:

        Yeah, Veet, listen to Satchit. He really knows what he is talking about. How else could he have taken the Heavyweight Chump Champion of SN title? You have to be brilliant with words to do that. But Satchit, through pure determination, no-mind and the dedication of Arpana, his trainer and his analytical mind, did it. Namaste.

        MOD:
        Post edited (satirical put-down of an SN contributor (not Satchit) seemed a bit unfair without specific reference to evidence!).

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Satchit, who decides if and in which position to play – Karma?

        • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

          Veet Franceso, the one who decided, wrote and/or published these lines having been attached to your name…at 11:35 pm today.

          Although – for sure – such kind of statements are linked with the innumerable, uncountable synchronicity-events of other ‘concious´-´pre-concious´-´unconcious´ energy-amounts of others inhabiting this planet.

          And yet, there has been the ´one´ here, who ´decided´ for a push – at around lunch break, and that was you, yourself, wasn’t it?

          Madhu

          • sw. veet (francesco) says:

            Ciao, Madhu, I just said that: I prefer to use the criterion-law of Responsibility to that of Karma.

        • satchit says:

          Fact is, if you knew the answer, you would not ask.

          Btw. what does ‘Veet’ mean?

  23. satchit says:

    Fact is, if you knew the answer, you would not ask.

    Btw. what does ‘Veet’ mean?

  24. shantam prem says:

    Sd,
    if you please bring my post of (30 January, 2019 at 9:33 am) to the end, it will create rounding about effect for this thread. Thanks.

    What about Osho and the mala? Some conclusion from wise guys and ladies?

    I lost the second mala years ago, did not buy new one. Now when I die, some time in coming 30 seconds to 30 years, there won´t be mala around the dead body of Mr. Iqbal Singh aka Sw. Shantam Prem. Mama Mia, it will feel like journey without valid documents.

    As I feel accepting death without the hope of saviour is the best homage to Osho.

  25. shantam prem says:

    “Habitual generalisations”? Was not Osho prone to it? All the Indian gurus thrive on generalisations. Maybe it is part of Indian way of seeing things and trying to create some order and penetrating insights.

    Insights about life cannot be presented as academic papers of facts and figures.

    • satyadeva says:

      Well, Shantam, this is another of your well-worn, tricky strategies, citing the work of Osho and other “gurus”, the “Indian way of seeing things” and claiming “insights about life” in order to rationalise your own lack of intellectual integrity (aka a deficiency of hard evidence).

      It’s very simple, old chap: If you claim “most” of any set of people are “confused” then you simply have to provide proof. Otherwise, it’s nothing but sheer speculation, your word against anyone else’s who chooses to disagree, with or without enough evidence. Driven by, I suspect in your case, wish fulfilment, ie imagining you’re far from the only one feeling that way, which alleviates that lost, lonely feeling.

      That would seem to be part of your confusion: confusing imagination and reality without bothering to check the facts. And imagining this produces “some order and penetrating insights” when all it does is provide you with more wishy-washy delusion with which to comfort yourself. (My advice: Stay away from the Brexit ‘debate’, it’ll confuse you even more!).

  26. Arpana says:

    That’s a bit spiteful, Lokesh!!!

  27. Lokesh says:

    Arpana, you are confused.

  28. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh, most of the people calling themselves sannyasins are confused.
    To deny this is a false bravado as lonely hearts start saying, “We are alone, not lonely.”

  29. Arpana says:

    Lokesh,
    You do realise he’s addressing you as if he’s your equal?
    Surely some mistake.

  30. satyadeva says:

    Another of your habitual generalisations, Shantam, confidently delivered as if you have evidence from more than about 0.00001% of the sannyasin population.

    However, what do you think “most of the people calling themselves sannyasins are confused about”? Haven’t Osho’s teachings, meditations, therapies, communal situations and, er, ‘devices’, plus his very presence (not to mention the ongoing process of life itself) been enough to clarify the key existential and psycho-spiritual issues for his people? And how about you – are you yourself one of this ‘unhappy’ breed?!

    Come on, Shantam, open up and spill the beans: What exactly has gone wrong? (N.B: No answer highlighting the Pune ashram will be acceptable. Thank You).

  31. satchit says:

    If most of the sannyasins are confused, then his famous words: “I am here to confuse you!” did work, didn’t they?

    Anyway, I admit, where would one be if this sannyas trip never happened is an interesting but also very speculative question.

  32. Lokesh says:

    Shantam, I do not agree. I met several sannyasins today and would not describe any of them as being confused. I would go as far to as to say that they were all positive, humourous and really cool folk to hang out with. Maybe you have been meeting confused sannyasins where you are. I really do not know what brings you to such a general conclusion.

  33. shantam prem says:

    This is a good one!

  34. shantam prem says:

    Satyadeva, being the editor create a new string about psychological health of sannyasins and emotional wounds. I will write with the figures and real life stories.

    Just for a rough survey, how many sannyasnews bloggers have stable relations? How many have created families?

    MOD:
    Shantam, as it’s your idea, I suggest that you write an introduction to such a discussion, detailing the issues you want to be aired.