What motivates someone to become a spiritual seeker? And does that motivation change over time? Didn’t Osho say that his people were largely rebels, “crazies” who couldn’t fit in with their oppressive, repressive societies? Was that true only for a particular time, for the post-war generation that grew up in the 60s and 70s?
In this short video, Eckhart Tolle talks about the different types of spiritual seekers described in the Bhagavad Gita, which states that there are four distinct types of individuals who embark on a journey to find connection with divinity:
Those seeking relief from suffering, or happiness through worldly desires, or knowledge and self-realization, or a profound connection with the divine. Which of these best describes your original personal motivation, and, in your view, that of sannyasins in general? And how has that changed, if at all?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A88T_tofCc
(Apologies for the lack of a live link above)
“Didn’t Osho say that his people were largely rebels, “crazies” who couldn’t fit in with their oppressive, repressive societies?”
Seeking fell away after taking sannyas. Before taking sannyas, in the 60s and 70s, I was a seeker. When I first discovered Osho I immediately felt an affinity with him. I was drawn to Osho as a spiritual friend who shared my craziness. We seemed to have a lot in common.
As a child I read voraciously in my public library. I worked in libraries for 45 years; Osho was a book lover who read every book in his village library, according to the OSHO SOURCE BOOK (volume 1) and had a large personal library. India’s greatest bookman.
As a teenager I was a rebel, an anarchist. I read Emma Goldman, Leo Tolstoy, Bakunin, Kropotkin, etc. Osho also lived a rebellious childhood, spoke favorably of his anarchism, and had read the Russian authors.
Out of concern for overpopulation I voluntarily got a vasectomy at age 20. For ecological reasons I did not want to procreate. Osho was also a rebel in that sense. He was also concerned with overpopulation, and he also remained childless.
I was a conscientious objector and refused my government’s orders to go to war in Vietnam; Osho also spoke against the horrors of modern organized violence, against the whole history of humanity’s stupid wars.
I was an undergraduate student of philosophy and comparative religions; Osho was a philosophy professor and spoke on philosophers and mystics of the world’s religious traditions.
I started meditating in 1969; Osho conducted Mount Abu meditation camps in the 1960s and spoke continuously on meditation in the 70s and 80s.
My work colleagues asked me if I was on drugs because I was happy all the time; Osho radiated a cool, passionate, satchitananda; a smile and namaste greeting even while being arrested and perp walked in chains.
At the time I first went to Pune it was out of a mundane desire for spiritual knowledge. I was curious about all spiritual paths. Osho obviously had much more insight into spiritual mystics, and traditions that I was not familiar with, like Hasidism and the Baul mystics… and all the Zen masters. That is why I went. Osho did not disappoint me. The Master of Masters freely gave me much more than I was seeking; beyond knowledge, beyond mind, which cannot be put into words.
Before meeting Osho life already seemed amazing to me. I was happy by nature. To be able to eat when hungry and sleep when tired: just ordinary life seemed extraordinary. I was not envious of Osho’s enlightenment. I was happy for him. He said he is an ordinary human being. I believed him.
I did not desire enlightenment. I was too lazy to even swim toward enlightenment. I preferred to float and trust Existence. It was easier to just relax and enjoy the fruits of Osho’s enlightenment.
I enjoyed Osho’s Zen discourses… and his jokes. I enjoyed finding in Osho a spiritual friend who resonated with my life experience.
Osho is still a fellow traveller. From sitting all those hours on the marble floor in Osho’s presence, and feeling his compassion, there developed an amazing sense of spiritual communion with Osho that continues today.
A well thought out and well-written comment from Samarpan, which also demonstrates how to go about responding to a thread. SN needs more of that sort of thing.
I basically came to Osho twice, once as a child and once as a forty-year old man after a long absence. The first time I met him I was following my parents, the second time it was following what I remembered from my childhood, a wisdom and a kind of enlightened energy which can still be found in the recordings of his voice. The spiritual search came late to me, I wasn’t even aware of it as a child.
The second time my spiritual search was partially triggered by reading Atisha’s teaching on death: death is coming, it is inevitable, and nothing can help you, only the spiritual search can lift the veil a little. That is why I went looking, again. I’d had a successful career and in the end found my achievements to be worth very little, you can’t take anything with you. So why not search for what does make a difference? That is also what led me deeper into Buddhism.
Perhaps it is relevant if I tell the story of how my father first came across him. It was in a magazine that someone had brought to the university lab where my father worked, he saw a short article and a photo of Osho. He felt, just from seeing the photo, that here was something he couldn’t ignore, he had to do something. With his next summer holiday he was on the plane to Poona.
So I think it is something more primal than “a desire for knowledge and self-realization” or “relief from suffering”. There was a kind of connection, a call. Sannyasins were a pretty unique bunch, able to perceive that there was something missing in the world, and able to see that in Osho they found it. That “having found it” was something that connected all sannyasins.
Sannyasins in my experience were not much after knowledge, into suffering or looking for worldly desires. They were people aware of the Earth’s energy, people willing to put up with a few discomforts for the sake of the cause, creative people.
Anyway, that’s how I experienced it….
Questions, questions, questions.
“What motivates someone to become a spiritual seeker?”
The reasons are as numerous as the seekers. Each person is unique and therefore their motivations are also.
“Didn’t Osho say that his people were largely rebels, “crazies” who couldn’t fit in with their oppressive, repressive societies?”
Yes, he probably did. Osho said a lot of things. He probably said that during the seventies. Later on, more normal people joined the sannyasin ranks and many ‘crazies’ left the movement because it was getting too crazy.
“Was that true only for a particular time, for the post-war generation that grew up in the 60s and 70s?”
It was said in context, but can still apply today.
Eckhart Tolle? I watched the Youtube vid and did not find it inspiring. Two million people subscribe to that channel, which says much about today’s spiritual seeker viewing habits. Take the guy off the podium or microphone and sit him down in a group of intelligent friends and he would just be another fish in the tank, even though he is as dry as a bone. I’m sure the man is providing something people need but I am not one of those people. He needs to develop his sense of humour and swear more.
“Those seeking relief from suffering, or happiness through worldly desires, or knowledge and self-realization, or a profound connection with the divine. Which of these best describes your original personal motivation, and, in your view, that of sannyasins in general?”
None of those reasons rings a bell, perhaps some combination of them all that would be difficult to define with a few extras chucked in like taking psychedelic substances that showed me a bigger picture, and enjoying dancing. As for sannyasins in general, who is to say? The question is so broad it is impossible to give a definite answer.
“And how has that changed, if at all?”
The idea that there is something greater taking place than the events forming an individual’s life is hardly a novel one. It is as old as man himself and has taken on different forms over the centuries. Osho’s Sannyas movement is one of those forms. Some have outgrown that form, perhaps moving on to more fertile ground, while others stay with it for whatever reasons.
Sannyas is certainly more interesting and dynamic than Eckhart Tolle’s rap. I think the era of guru worship is fast receding into the past. People are beginning to understand that it is all within themselves and that external gurus are projections from within. The Advaita movement has done much to steer people in a more fruitful direction, wherin the emphasis has shifted from witnessing to that which witnesses.
Osho helped sow the seeds for such an inner revolution by getting people into witness mode. Now people are becoming acquainted with that which witnesses. One can spend a lifetime becoming acquainted with that which witnesses, which is, of course, the essence of spiritual truth and, as the old saying goes, the truth will set you free.
Tolle is an oddity, why no one questions his ticks, his stupid giggling, or much of his talking is beyond me. He’s given up on sex, so he’s no use to anyone who might have a question about sexuality, or how to love. He is trite and superficial and his audience lap it up, bowing to him in reverence like some old eastern guru. He’s a money machine too, and his time will no doubt come when one form of scandal around him will appear
He seems to be the face of modern spiritual understanding, which is deeply sad.
Apart from the sex issue, I disagree with much of what you say about ET, Simond. I don’t mind his personality, I find him quite endearing, and I appreciate the calm and the good humour he emanates. I think he provides much of value and calling him merely “trite and superficial” is deeply unfair. I also doubt very much that any “form of scandal around him will appear”, in fact I’d be willing to bet on that: how about a £100 wager?! (That said, I’ve always thought the charges for his large public events are far too high although that seems to be in the hands of others).
He’s not my guru but I enjoy him and it’s refreshing and remarkable that such an ordinary, superficially insignificant chap, ‘nothing special’, as it were, can apparently reach the heights and depths of consciousness after having lived a very problematic, unhappy life until ‘God/Life’ somehow found him when he was even contemplating suicide at age 29 (good old ‘Saturn Return’), telling himself “I can’t live with myself”, which in fact triggered his awakening.
Horses for courses though, and as we all know, no teacher is for everyone, so in a way such discussions and arguments are perhaps ultimately rather pointless.
Yes, I’m a little cruel about him. I know he has some profound understanding of the transcendental. This allows him to speak with an authority.
However, there are so many teachers who have some knowledge of the transcendent, there are myriad teachers in the West speaking of non-duality, wholeness and Love.
It’s easy to get caught up in the mystique of these people who seem to have a greater knowledge than me, or you. Not unlike the scientists who can mystify us with jargon and theory.
What I notice about Tolle are his neurotic ticks, his giggling, his uptight clothes, his hesitancy to speak of things that are controversial. His fear to speak to those who ask questions about sex, and intimacy.
Many might not notice these idiosyncrasies, or cover them up because he appears to be wise and all-knowing, but I don’t. They are neurotic, and should be questioned, as any master should be tested and doubted.
We’ve moved on from the simple notions that the teacher should be surrendered to. These eastern concepts don’t work here. Too often Tolle doesn’t answer difficult, awkward questions, and I can’t ignore such deficiencies in him or in myself.
I don’t find his giggling offensive at all, I rather enjoy it, neither have I noticed his “ticks”. As for “uptight clothes” – he seems to usually wear an open-necked shirt, maybe a pullover and ordinary trousers. What else would you approve of for a man of 75 – a dressing gown, or a lunghi, perhaps?!
What sort of questions would you like to ask him on sex and intimacy, could you give one or two examples?
Watch his incessant and therefore neurotic blinking. His childlike giggling is hardly normal adult behaviour. You see, I make the judgment that enlightenment does not mean we should accept behaviour that is overly eccentric. We’ve seen all the drama and pretence and better-than-thou characters of enlightened teachers; the sexual and money scandals. There have been so many of these, haven’t there?
We’ve seen the softly spoken, nodding teachers, over-empathetic, kindly and warm, preaching non- duality with a sincerity that avoids all mention of pain. Tolle is on this spectrum of teachers, who as I’ve said offer simplistic, meditative solutions.
He clearly serves a purpose, taking beginners to a certain place where they’ve touched the transcendental, but beyond that, he says nothing. Nothing about fear, loneliness, the other, sadness, sexual frustration, futility, hopelessness, doubt…these are the real questions about the human condition
I’ve honestly never noticed ET incessantly blinking and I enjoy his giggling, which helps us to see and share the humour or indeed the absurdity of aspects of the human predicament. I think if you’re looking for ‘perfection’ or even ‘near-perfection’ in the personality of anyone, enlightened or not, you’re on a losing quest, Simond.
A propos of which, are you absolutely certain you retain no vestiges of any Christian conditioning that presents Jesus Christ as a ‘perfect person’, ie a perfectly controlled authority figure? Could that be even partially behind your strict preferences?
I completely agree with exercising discrimination in these matters but has anyone ever measured up to the standards you demand for a spiritual teacher to be considered worthy of your full respect?
Hi Sat,
I’m not entirely sure what you may mean by looking for perfection in the personality of any teacher, or enlightened person.
No one is perfect, we are all on a journey, including those you may tag as enlightened.
My experience with every teacher is that they, like me, are on a journey and I certainly don’t now expect them to be perfect. However it took a while and a lot of more direct contact with my teachers to take them off the pedestal that I had put them on. Only by learning how to “see“ them without my projections did I learn to have discretion and to make the true and real judgement of their skills, knowledge and abilities to communicate. Osho was, for example, my first real teacher and like many I wanted him to be perfect and he, through his own ignorance, appeared to further that opinion of himself
Barry Long was the most likely candidate as the most profound teacher I have met, and any criticism I have of him has only arisen as I’ve matured further. But as a teacher for the West his help has been immense. Perhaps too that’s why I have no real respect for Tolle who hardly mentions Barry, and has largely betrayed his work by ignoring so much of Barry’s teaching. Such is the way…
Krishnamurti I only knew through his books and his talks and I loved his dissective mind as well as his vulnerability and sensitivity. Yet he too was limited by his time and place and he never felt able to talk about his sexuality and his affair.
The other Krishnamurti I also admired but he was a bit too angry
The truest, most profound teacher I’ve had is Chris Orchard, who remains the most honest of teachers. He seems to have always gone deeper, allowed life and circumstances to teach him more, rather than relying on his past knowledge. To me the journey is always one of discovery moment by moment and he too expresses that so well.
Finally, to your point about Christian conditioning. It’s one of my regular insights that we are all Christians here, full of guilt, with no self-worth. The great challenge is to recognise this and be able to move on. In my own experience almost no one has yet to do so. And btw, Buddhists, non-dualists and almost all religions are “Christian“ as well. Guilt is everywhere
Seems guilt is a problem for you, Simond.
As I see it, guilt is mind-made. And if you find a therapist maybe he can help
you to get rid of guilt.
Guilt belongs to the leaves, of which Osho spoke. You can cut the leaves, but it will not change much.
A spiritual teacher is not a therapist.
He lives in a space beyond mind.
Tolle doesn’t talk about ‘having it off’ or fucking, which may disappoint some seekers such as Simond who have lost some of the constraints and limitations of the old man, much thanks to Osho’s contribution to spirituality.
For me this is not a problem. I have not watched his videos, I remember first picking up his book ‘the Power of Now’ from a bookstall on the side of the road in Delhi around 2007 and was impressed by his style, and his story, which I thought could be a useful message for seekers.
I think there is room for a psychedelic spirituality. I have been reading ‘Sacred Knowledge: Psychedelics and Religious Experience’ by William Richards, and found his ideas of a future where psychedelics are available as mental health treatment and as a spiritual experience quite refreshing. It’s very much a discussion whose time has come again, I came across this beautiful story:
“At the age of 74, venture capitalist George Sarlo may not have seemed like an obvious candidate for an ayahuasca experience. Sarlo, a Hungarian Jewish immigrant who arrived in the United States in 1956, has had great professional success as a co-founder of Walden Venture Capital. He lives in a chic neighbourhood of San Francisco, in a large house with unobstructed views of the Golden Gate Bridge.
And yet something was always missing. Mr Sarlo’s father had disappeared from their home in Budapest in 1942. He was drafted into a battalion of forced labour, an experience he did not survive. At the age of 4, George had told himself it was because he was ‘a naughty boy’ who had left his father that day, early in the morning, without saying goodbye. He believes he never recovered from that early loss.
Sarlo’s close friend, a doctor, told him about ayahuasca, a psychedelic concoction made from the Banisteriopsis caapi vine, native to the Amazon. Ayahuasca has been used for centuries in sacred healing traditions in Central and South America and is now gaining popularity around the world, seen in recent headlines about Silicon Valley’s customs, although N, N-Dimethyltryptamine or DMT, the active ingredient in an ayahuasca journey, is mostly illegal in the United States (there are a few exceptions, mostly religious). Tourism in Ayahuasca is thriving, with more and more people looking to fly thousands of miles to take part in week-long ceremonies in Peru’s jungle, or to seek more luxurious contexts, such as a four-star resort with masseuses, swimming pools and the state of modern fitness centres. And in particular, the increasing popularity of ayahuasca has no age limits: many of those who are now showing interest are entirely in Mr. Sarlo’s demographic.
Mr Sarlo himself was initially sceptical. Taking ayahuasca would involve a potentially painful night of hallucinations and all sorts of excretions, especially vomiting. One of the most notorious aspects of an ayahuasca journey is its violent purge. But he still decided to go to Yelapa, a small village in Mexico, and swallow the bitter concoction.
That night he saw a series of ‘old-fashioned photos of soldiers in Hungarian uniforms,’ he said, and black and white film footage. But he was scared and sick, and swore that if he got out of the hallucination, he would never come back. The next day, exhausted and not understanding, he told the shaman that he was disappointed not to have found his father. The shaman told him to try again the next night: on Mexican Day of the Dead.
Mr Sarlo decided it was worth another try. He drank again. Very quickly he saw a forest covered in snow. “There were dead bodies everywhere,” he said. “One skeleton hung out of the snow. And somehow I knew that was my father.
“I’m not sure exactly how we communicated because I haven’t seen anyone alive, but I heard his voice. He came to me and I asked him a very important question, which read: ‘Why didn’t you say goodbye?’ He said he thought he could get out and be back the same day, so why wake up George?
“I asked a second question:” Did you love me? “He pointed to the skeleton sticking out of the snow.” The mouth of the skeleton hung open. “He said, look at me. That’s my last breath. And with my last breath, I blessed you and promised to protect you all your life. ‘
Mr Sarlo said something shifted later. He realised his life had been “absolutely full of miracles,” he said. “It has completely changed my life.” “
I like the laughter of Tolle in the vid.
It’s the laughter of someone knowing that the search is in vain.
Certainly he is not that kind of Rock’n'Roll Guru Bhagwan has been. In the 70s Rock’n'Roll was needed to attract the hippies and then send them back to the West as messengers.
Now there are no more hippies, so the strategy is different.
Yes, it’s true some suffering or missing is needed to start the search. If everything is fine, there is no Guru needed.
Reminds me of my starting point:
“Life is not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be lived.”
Do you know Maslow’s pyramid? It has the basic needs such as food, shelter and sex at the bottom, and self-realisation at the top. It basically proposes that as you gain the basics of life you start thinking about other more advanced questions, until in the end the questions around spirituality and self-realisation come into view.
Many people don’t ever reach the top of that pyramid, and find that key life questions only come late in life when people around you start dying and one starts considering death. Of course that movement takes you away from a life-positive engagement with sannyas.
A lot of sannyasins came to Osho at a young age, and decided to stay. I like to think they found a deepening of their life’s experience there.
NP, you say, “Of course that movement takes you away from a life-positive engagement with sannyas.”
I do not think there is any “of course” about it. Osho spoke extensively about death and how it is something to be celebrated. This is quite a radical concept and, of course, not as easy to live as it sounds, especially if it is you who is playing the dying role.
I think most people who are even just a little aware about the nature of life contemplate death. It is perfectly natural and there is nothing negative about it. To say that considering death “takes you away from a life-positive engagement with sannyas” is absurd. Sannyas was intended to be all about living, yes. But the more alive one is the more aware one is that death is an ever-present part of life. Life and death are two aspects of the same coin and one cannot exist without the other.
The first thing I’d like to explore about the motivation of the seeker is perhaps often misunderstood.
That is, that the search is not a positive seeking for higher spiritual truth but a negative one, a “running away”. Running away from pain and unhappiness with the hope that the search will provide a sanctuary from the most basic human condition, that we are dissatisfied with our lot and don’t wish to face it.
It may have been Tagore who highlighted this in a poem where he suggested that we take 99 steps towards God, and at the last moment always turn back. This turning back is a reference to how God, in his eyes, or the truth in another, is terrifying.
Whilst seekers prefer the never ending journey towards God, they don’t really wish to truly find it. Because as we face the truth of life, we have to face that our cherished notions of wholeness, oneness, God and Love etc. fail us.
The truth is that there is no salvation from the dirty business of life, from work, from relationships, and finally from death. The death that everyone fears, but few will admit to.
I know in my own journey the excitement and thrill and the hope of meeting with Osho and others was based to a degree on my infantile projection for a loving father figure. I saw so many sannyasins forever wrapped up in one therapy session or another, or one dynamic after another, looking for a way out of their deepest feelings of unhappiness.
Only later as I matured did I start to stop running and start facing unhappiness. To stop looking for a saviour, to stop blaming mothers, fathers, teachers etc. and to take responsibility for my life, for it all. In today’s world the blame game is growing, it’s man’s fault, woman’s fault, the government’s fault, anyone but me, who is responsible.
Conversely to everything I’ve said, I’ve met many people who in one way or another, from early childhood, or later, always felt there was something more to the materialistic world of our parents. Many who had dreams, “strange” experiences as children, who sought the spiritual path because they felt an inner calling, or had an inner recognition that there must be “more”. This led them to Osho, or to many other spiritual teachers or to books on self-development in their search for some understanding of their inner world.
There is validity to this search, but in my own experience it runs side-by-side with the same deep longing to avoid and cover up the strangest, deepest truth in life, that there is no salvation or hope at all.
Once the hope has died, a more profound relaxation or acceptance of our lot does arise. It too passes and returns, passes and returns
To say Tolle is neurotic is a bit stupid.
Whatever, people have their opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vZNI_uBYVk
To say he is neurotic is a bit stupid, you suggest. However, you don’t explain why? Is it possible to have great insights, as he does, and yet be neurotic as well? Should we avoid speaking about the neuroses of the so-called teachers? Perhaps in doing so, we ignore that we are all neurotic at times, and that includes those we might otherwise wish to put on a pedestal.
Wasn’t Osho also neurotic too? Or does his enlightened state preclude seeing how ordinary he also was, with the same tendencies as mere mortals like you and me?
Certainly Osho was neurotic.
He was a car nut. If you perceive only the surface, you see the neurosis.
If you see the inner, you need not judge from the mind. It’s not relevant.
Oh dear, the pros and cons of Mr Tolle. Osho was neurotic.
“If you see the inner, you need not judge from the mind.” Erm…isn’t that a judgement?
By “seeing the inner” I meant something resonates in you.
You don’t see the surface, the “neurotic blinking”.
You know this guy has some satchitananda-experience because your own is triggered.
Others see only the “neurotic blinking”, similar to Bhagwan where some saw only the “sex guru” or the Rolls Royce.
When I came to Osho/Poona I had not any idea about spirituality, after graduating from Bombay University at 20, then living in the West in my early twenties, then working in Bombay, and by my mid-twenties I was actually frustrated with life in general. While attending my first evening Osho discourse I knew I needed to be here, without any knowledge about Osho or His Commune. (I had translated his Hindi discourses into English for my German friends without knowing about him nor did I have any interest in the topic then).
Now in retrospect I think & feel I didn’t have worldly desires as such as I already had the basic necessities without a real need to fend for money. Yes, I am grateful to have found a partner, even though incompatible in some ways! Probably my life found a kind of fulfilment, living together and experiencing for myself about the so-called mystery of man-woman psyche.
On my so-called spiritual way I met some so-called enlightened persons including some co-writers on Sannyasnews who did share whatever they could/can. I didnt/don’t have questions, just being with them was/is enough, whenever it happened/happens, time well spent for sure.
Welcome back to SN, Kavita, thanks for your contribution.
Thank you too, SD, good to be back contributing actively, after being a peeping Tina on SN for a long time.
Here’s a couple of great songs I’ve recently come across. I’m a Sexsmith fan but (thanks to covid?) I’d hardly heard anything from him or anyone else for a few years. Feels a bit like an rebirth to hear stuff like this…(except the ads of course)…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_MhwuUCEjU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0tASpvqV8
Never heard this singer before! Sweet!
Post-Covid I travelled quite a lot, enjoyed the not-so-crowded train journeys on Indian Railways, then took a break & started going regularly to a garden in Koregaon Park, and still continue going there. This was & is a rebirthing for me! Travelled again after a year, to the Himalayas for coupla months.
Now in Poona!
Hi Kavita, nice to see you around!
I just wanted to say I’ve always enjoyed Eckhart Tolle, he comes across to me as a very genuine and very gentle teacher. I do have some doubts about some of his more out-there observations in the books and the amount of money that’s charged for his products like the web tv service. But I’ve always liked him, although I don’t get the sense he is the right teacher for me.
In recent weeks I have been reading a book about trauma and the effects it has into later life. It’s led to some reassessments of my childhood, and doing a fair amount of inner work. If you’re interested, the book that has triggered this was ‘The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness and Healing in a Toxic Culture’ by Gabor Maté.
“I do have some doubts about some of his more out-there observations in the books” – Could you provide one or two examples, please, NP?
For example, he talks about treating a patient with a heavy “pain body” and then leaving a cloud of that behind in an office.
Hi NP, good to see you here.
Firstly, thank you for suggesting.
I am not into reading books since a few years.
Actually don’t like ET’s tone, not my cuppa!
I feel like I am an old schooler these days!
I would rather listen to J.Krishnamurti if need be, I haven’t felt the need to hear Osho in a long, long time!
I enjoy my minimum daily chores, watch scenic\aesthetic videos & travelling when I have to or can afford to.
It’s odd, I’m meeting a lot of people who are not into books! All the women in my life…I find so much in reading books, the long-form means people formulate their ideas with more care, compared to a blog or article, for instance.
I never got on with Jiddu Krishnamurti’s videos, I don’t respond to his tone and diction. Osho I still listen to from time to time, just for the beautiful quality of his voice.
I was considering doing a little travelling as well. My dad was in favour of going on a sightseeing trip to Egypt, he wants to see the Pyramids and the tombs and the temples. I’m not so convinced, I’m wondering if the money might not be better spent going on an Ayahuasca retreat in the Peruvian Amazon.
Yes, reading is good, I enjoyed reading for nearly fifty years of my life, now somehow enjoy watching more & sometimes listening.
I was working in the Audio department in Omar Khayyam in the Poona Commune for two years, and during this time a lot of listening happened. Later I lived in a Farm near Saswad (near Poona) where my mother had a good collection of nearly seven hundred of His tapes (which she gathered from saving her food passes she earned as a commune guest). Then after shifting back to Poona we gave all the tapes to a local Swami as by then Osho World provided online discourses. Until nearly five years ago my mother & me listened every day before lunch, it was kind of an on & off ritual for nearly eighteen years.
After my mother’s death I have been more into travelling, somehow site-seeing (man-made structures) just dropped after sannyas, some thirty-plus years ago!
”Peruvian Amazon” sounds great!
Guess we all have individual responses to our senses!
I’m currently helping to care for an elderly sannyasin with Alzheimer’s, which makes travel a little difficult, but I manage to take a short break once in a while. My father is luckily still in good shape, although he is now 75 as well.
Yes, Osho World is great, being able to download audio files of any discourse is a real boon. I have a hard drive full of audio and video attached to my beloved Mac, and sometimes I put a few new discourses on my phone for my forest walks. But honestly I listen more to Terence McKenna than anyone else at the moment.
Isn’t it funny? I used to go to all sorts of places, Seattle, Helsinki, Munich, Istanbul, Havana, and I enjoyed the different flavours of places. But ten years ago I stopped with all of that, rented a little flat in Zandvoort above the beach, and started spending more time meditating. A new phase… which of course also came to an end
I hope your mother had a good end? Some people go easily, others struggle. I recently lost three uncles, two to cancer and one to a heart attack. It seems to be the time…
”I hope your mother had a good end?”
For me, this is difficult to answer, anyway I shall try.
My mother was a very independent & very courageous woman.
Unfortunately, towards the end of her life, she was bedridden for nearly two & a half years, I helped her through this by myself as she didn’t want a nurse.
I cherish many moments which we shared, specially during this time, which maybe otherwise wouldn’t have been possible; one such was this: I told her I didn’t have the courage to see her leave her body and to this she said, ”I will keep this in mind”, which she did probably, she died around 4am in her sleep, and all I can say is it was less painful for me.
Now all of that is past life for me, yes, but it was effortless to share that now!
Two and a half years is a long time to be bedridden. It must have been difficult, thank you for telling us the history.
My uncle Arjen who died most recently went through two years when his cancer diagnosis didn’t bother him so much, then his PSA values started to rise and he had several rounds of chemo. In the end he waited until after the wedding anniversary between him and his wife, and the day after requested euthanasia because life had become such a struggle. Within a few days the doctor came and gave him an injection of muscle relaxants, which was supposed to send him to sleep and then allow him to die. But instead, after several hours he suddenly woke up, very cheerful and asked for some chicken soup! Then he slept and died a little later, very peacefully.
”Two and a half years is a long time to be bedridden” – Actually, I think for me, after any difficult time is over, I somehow feel it brings me closer to timelessness!
”euthanasia” – India is not yet ready for this, my mother many times told me to induce her to free her from her life, the last time I told her, “I am not Amrito & nor are you Osho!”
“Closer to timelessness”, I like that. Do you think us timeless sannyasins still have something to offer the world? Osho said to live your life with creativity, intelligence, meditation…maybe we should just try to make beautiful music, paintings, and such.
Do you know the paintings of Sandipa? They can be viewed here, I like them a lot…
https://www.globalsuitcase.com/
Thanks for introducing Sandipa & for the link.
”us timeless sannyasins” – First of all, I would rather not include myself in any kind of a tribe, period. ”something to offer the world?” – I have nothing to offer to the world as such, maybe just being able to share sometimes here on SN and with people whom I interact with in my daily life is the only offering I can afford.
”Osho said…”! – I am not into following what he or anyone said. About ”creativity, intelligence, meditation”: To me, all these three could be interlinked & in a way they could be a trinity, they cannot exist separately perhaps!
If at all I have learned from Osho & other Masters it is this – elementary for most: words & guidance from a Master/Teacher are needed to navigate in life but maybe many/few eventually learn to navigate on their own!
Thank you for your time & attention.
Wish you the best always.
We are not only creators.
We are also the creation.
Of whom?
It’s always nice to chat with those who know Osho…big hug to you, Kavita!
It is funny, I was just reading Simond’s description that in Osho he saw a kind of father figure. For me, Osho was not that, because I already had a father, Osho in those days was more a kind of smiling non-being. He was always apart, distant, almost more an icon than a person.
Perhaps a smiling non-being represents your own “father complex”. I doubt anyone to deny that Osho, as “wise” man or Master isn’t a symbol of the ideal father. And as the other great Master from the past is quoted as saying, but not often by Christians :
“Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:26)
Like NP, I have never felt Osho as a father figure.
Jesus may have been a great Master in his time, perhaps not as enlightened as Osho, but the Christian religion that followed him unfortunately turned into one of the most historically destructive ones.
Doreen Virtue used to make these beautiful angel Tarot card decks, which were incredibly popular, and produced books on angels and ascended masters, but a few years ago got heavily into Christianity and decided her old cards and her books were evil or may have a ‘demonic’ influence and decided she wanted to distance herself from her ‘new-age’ previous creations and wanted her name completely removed from future publications of the decks.
And I’ve seen this kind of destructive nonsense, similar things happen to people who got into Christianity and literal interpretations of the Bible before and started behaving in crazy, irrational ways. That`s when the real demon comes in And doesn’t mean that people can’t connect to Jesus or other ascended masters, they can, but it is the blind belief in certain statements from the Bible which can cause the damage.
Christianity can be very unhealthy and one of the downsides, definitely unhelpful for any meditator, is it can channel unnecessary fear of ‘dark’ or ‘evil’ beings.
Q) “And what about demons?”
A) Mother Meera : “No demons! We will create ourselves, this or that, but really, they do not exist.”
I wonder how accurate that quote is, how much has been lost and/or added in translation.
The key, I’d suggest, is not to deny the quote but to try and make sense of it. What’s remarkable is that it was never censored from the biblical texts, but there is another mystery. Of course there is always an appreciation that the translation may be taken out of context or has in some way been mistranslated but the fact remains the quote has remained part of the biblical text for a long time
How to make sense of the Jesus who is so often seemingly talking about loving thy neighbour etc?
My own take is that he recognised that (in many cases) the family, the known and the past were to be seen for what they truly are. That is, hindrances or obstacles to genuine discovery of the transcendent. He added, more controversially and even less well understood, that Life itself was also such an obstacle.
In my own understanding, such a statement expresses still further how profound a teacher he is. It’s one to digest and explore for oneself.
I must be the exception, I’ve never found Jesus particularly profound compared to Krishnamurti or Nisargadatta or Osho. But then I wasn’t brought up in a Christian environment; your background matters a lot in finding what resonates for you.
I’ve been reading about permaculture in the rainforest, about the Divine Feminine, about the turning point in the cultural makeup, about the Amazonian shamans and their ways. Interesting stuff.
NP says, ‘”I’ve never found Jesus particularly profound compared to Krishnamurti or Nisargadatta or Osho.”
Surely this is because NP does not possess the keys to unlocking the doors, particularly in the New Testament, that lead to great profundity. The beauty of Jesus and his parables is that they appear simple, yet contain profound wisdom and they reflect the recipient’s level of personal understanding of how those parables are interpreted
A ready example would be the following: “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also”
NP, or anyone else reading this, what do you take turning the other cheek to mean?
While you are at it, contemplate this beauty:
“The wind blows where it chooses,
and you hear the sound of it,
but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes.
So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Turning the other cheek is obviously to do with buttocks….
Hardly a profound response, NP. Is that the best you can come up with? Here is another one to work on:
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”
I’ll give you a clue this time as your last response was well wide of the mark. It might have something to do with offering something valuable or good to someone who does not know its value. Ring a bell?
Here is an ancient photo of Jesus hanging with his crew to inspire you.
It’ll come to me…it will have something to do with sex…or maybe fart jokes, any parable can be turned into a fart joke.
Great quotes Lokesh from the Man.
As you’ll already know I’m no Christian, but you’re right to consider and explore the meaning behind Jesus’s statements for the depth they carry.
The former one about turning the other cheek is utterly profound, particularly when you consider the times he lived in.
No one before or since had explored so simply the notion that anger and violence begat more of the same. In those times, almost all societies saw violence, war and conquering as the primary means by which their standing could be measured.
For the first time someone explicitly denied that – and endeavoured to speak of love and shared humanity as a goal.
No such understanding had arisen in the East at that time, or at least no teacher had made it so explicit.
In a personal sense too, his message was not of retribution and an eye for eye & a tooth for a tooth, but one of forgiveness and non violence. This was utterly new and resonated then as it still does today – even if it’s a measure we humans so often fail to realise.
It’s clear that however misunderstood his message was, the effect of that message resonates across time, and its effects went far beyond the stupid religions it may have created.
NP says, “Any parable can be turned into a fart joke.”
JC says, “It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”
Oh good, for a moment I thought you were going to say something harsh, you know, cutting. But I totally agree vomit is unpleasant.
“I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)
Hating father and mother is a device for finding detachment.
Jesus said similar things like:
“I don’t bring peace, I bring the sword.”
Not sure you’re right about hating parents bringing detachment, Satchit. Isn’t hanging on to any fixed emotional attitude, especially a very strong emotion like hatred, another form of attachment?
That would seem to indicate either some sort of error in translation or an incomplete understanding of freedom.
Yes, SD, hanging on to any fixed emotional attitude, especially like hatred is attachment.
But what will happen if you do it consciously? If you consciously hate father, mother, life?
Nothing will happen. Try it, it is not possible! You will fail doing it.
And this failure is detachment.
I suspect this is a very tricky area, where theory and practice might be two very different things, with different outcomes. If so, then ‘hatred’ and ‘hate’ are the wrong terms. Maybe something like ‘totally reject’ or ‘detach yourself from’ would fit better?
SD, Jesus spoke to simple people like fishermen and he spoke in parables.
Osho talked about dropping the ego, the inner social binding.
What Jesus meant is basically the same.
Believe it or not.
I think your version is flawed, Satchit, you might well be romanticising Jesus and his disciples. I suggest that to strongly recommend hatred of family and even of life itself would be almost certain to be misunderstood and perhaps misused by such “simple” people and would therefore be an instance of unskilled, even potentially dangerous teaching.
Either that or, as I said, more likely a poor translation of Jesus’s actual words by zealot priests with a certain conditioned bias (celibate, cloistered away from the world?) many years, even centuries, later.
But SD, every teaching is flawed.
Is Osho’s teaching not flawed?
If it would not be flawed, just by listening everybody would find the truth.
How you can say such nonsense is extraordinary. It’s not so much the teaching, it’s the people receiving it, what they do or don’t do with it, how open/closed they are, how ready they are.
No teaching is for everyone. Reminds me of that notice on a door from one of Herman Hesse’s stories: “Entrance Not For Everyone”.
Yes, SD, it is nonsense.
Maybe Jesus was in India a disciple of a zenmaster and followed his message:
“I am here to confuse you.”
Well, I doubt he’d have found a “zenmaster” in India, the spiritual export tide was flowing in the other direction.
More likely the apparently conflicting messages suggest that these quotes and teachings came from different sources, not just from ‘Jesus’.
Perhaps Osho was like a spiritual father to Jesus, as Vivek/Nirvano told Osho`s bodyguard Devakant, apparently Osho had been John the Baptist in a previous lifetime.
Perhaps Satya Sai Baba was like a baby of Shiva and Shakti.
I’ve heard some suspiciously tall stories from the spiritual world but this one pretty well takes the biscuit. “Apparently”? According to whom exactly? If this had been true, do you think Osho would have kept it to himself? Sounds like idle gossip to me.
What does your speculative remark re Sai Baba imply?
Well , it comes from Swami Devakant, one of the guard’s who didn’t ‘fail’, who was close to Osho in all three of the communes, so not an unreliable source.
I find the whole concept of personal reincarnation to be unviable. The Buddha introduced the concept that there is no soul (self) tieing the cycle of rebirths, in contrast to themes asserted by various Hindu and Jaina traditions, and this central concept in Buddhism is called anattā; Buddha also affirmed the idea that all compounded things are subject to dissolution at death: anicca.
After the death of the Buddha, the various Buddhist schools which arose debated numerous aspects of rebirth, seeking to provide a more systematic explanation of the rebirth process. Important topics included the existence of the intermediate state, the exact nature of what undergoes rebirth, the relationship between rebirth and not-self, and how karma affects rebirth.
Osho a reincarnation of John the Baptist? Last I heard it was Moses. And round and round it goes. The problem with this kind of talk is that ordinary people start believing they have previous incarnations as this and that. Such ideas have so many givens it is impossible to say what is really going on.
And that is where I have arrived. I really don’t know. And I know that is one thing I can be certain of. I take it all with a pinch of curry powder and focus on who I have been reincarnated as today…at least I can work with that.
Reincarnation?
“Anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
~ Voltaire.
Hmm…How many townspeople did sannyasins try to poison?
I recall a book about a Buddhist master from Calcutta, Dipa Ma.
Apparently, she learned how to travel back in time, under the instructions of her master, but she had to practise herself backwards moment by moment. She claimed to have travelled right back in time to sit with the Buddha.
Osho talked about a meditation technique which could be used to travel back into past lives, named ‘Prati Prasav’, which He said was being practised by the disciples of Buddha and also by disciples of Mahavira.
Sarita mentioned it here:
https://www.oshonews.com/2023/07/13/prati-prasav-a-doorway-to-past-lives/
So if you want to time travel back to your favourite gig perhaps, you don’t need a Delorean.
I just travelled back in time and heard Osho say the following:
“I know reincarnation is a truth. But I am not saying that you should believe it because I say so. Never believe anybody else’s experience; that is a hindrance. I can only say to you, just live this incarnation.”
Sounded like good advice.
What are you waffling on about, Satchit? Get yourself together, man, the Frenchies are massing over the next ridge!
Jesus Christ? The biggest difference between Osho and Jesus is that we know for sure that Osho existed. It is debatable whether Jesus existed. During the time of Christ there were a couple of dozen chroniclers in the area. Not one of them mentioned Jesus. A bit surprising considering that the man was walking on water etc. That was surely noteworthy.
Of course, walking on water is a metaphor that has nothing to do with someone going for a stroll across the Sea of Galilee. And that is the point. The Bible is full of esoteric stories, which in turn are open to interpretation.
Gurdjieff’s ‘Work’ was described by Mister G as being esoteric Christianity. And it is.
The best writing I have come across in regards the life of Christ is the last third in the Urantia Book. A remarkable piece of writing and deeply touching in places.
I like the idea of Jesus Christ and it is interesting to note that Jesus did not refer to God as ‘The Father’ but rather ‘Daddy’. Another case of lost in translation.
To conclude this little diversion into Jesus and his parables we have a wee Osho quote:
“Jesus gives a sensitivity to people, an awareness, a mindfulness, a meditation, so that they can feel their way, so that they can understand every situation and respond accordingly. If you go deeply into Jesus you will understand only one thing: that to act with awareness is virtue and to act with unawareness is sin.
Sin is a kind of unconsciousness. You become angry. In that very anger you suffer, not that you will suffer afterwards. Anger is fire, anger is poison. It poisons your whole system: it disturbs your health, it disturbs your mind, it disturbs your tranquillity, it disturbs your soul; and then it hangs with you for days together. The disturbance has to settle again, and before it settles, you become angry again. Then it becomes chronic. Then it hangs with you.
My approach is that in the very act is the punishment, and in the very act is the reward, obviously. When you are loving, there is heaven; when you are hateful, there is hell.”
The thing is, when even Osho talks about Jesus I feel he gets a little lost, his words don’t have the directness that they usually have. I was reading through ‘The Mustard Seed’ a while back, and noticed quite a different feeling to the words.
I did enjoy this, ‘Enlightenment Through Laziness’:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=7WP7Jqd6nMY
When ‘The Mustard Seed’ first came out I found it to be very inspirational. I picked it up a couple of years ago, read a chapter and that was enough to know I did not wish to read further.
I much prefer Jake Knox.
I’m writing to the editor to have this blatant advertisement taken off this site. What have we become if we allow sordid, psychedelic literature on an otherwise Spiritual web site? And to advertise for free is simply ridiculous.
I remember when articulate, well written articles were presented here and a degree of fair-minded and thoughtful debate took place.
This is a slippery slide to anarchism.
Yours, Reverend Simon D, BA (Religious Studies), Cambridge University (1981-1990)
Anything involving psychedelic bears is bound to be good.
Yeah, NP, I agree. Here is a relevant quote from ‘Jake Knox’:
“I took the little Ziploc bag from her and emptied its contents onto the palm of my left hand. There were five hits of blotter acid with a dancing teddy bear printed on them. They looked harmless enough. “Okay, then, I’ll take three and you can take two.”"
P.S:
Just watched Oliver Stone’s docu, ‘Ukraine on Fire’, on Youtube. Anyone else seen it? Any opinions?
I didn’t watch it but have read the odd review.
I’m sure much of what he says is true, regarding the long-term programme the USA has re Russia and how Ukraine is a stooge for their interest in encircling Russia.
Both countries fear each other, first of all. And this fear reduces their thinking to short-term reaction to what the other side is doing.
The current war is ultimately unsustainable for Ukraine. It has to recognise the political reality that Russia won’t allow its borders to be encircled any further. It would rather an empty shell that Ukraine is fast becoming. That is a country without the ability to threaten Russia.
I have little hope for a peaceful conclusion unless the West provides Russia with some form of compromise around the Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine. The lies and hypocrisy of politicians and media in this whole conflict have been a shock even to me.
Our media seems to keep promising a Ukraine victory when all the evidence points to a continued stalemate.
On a deeper level, the whole scenario is a tragic example of our inability to move on from our personal, tribal, nationalistic fears.
Hi S,
‘Ukraine on Fire’ is a pretty powerful documentary. The problem between Russia and Ukraine has existed for a long time and won’t go away any day soon. One thing is certain, you can’t believe anything broadcast by the mainstream media covering the war and its causes in Ukraine. The docu reveals the depth of that in spades and the international manipulations implemented by different countries, especially USA.
I don’t usually watch docus like this but it is extremely well presented and produced.
Thanks for the tip…I usually try hard not to get involved in politics, but sometimes I dip a toe in the waters.
Yes, NP, I view politics in the same light. I’ll be interested to hear your opinion.
I have read ‘The Mustard Seed’ and one volume of ‘Come Follow Me’ (title later changed to ‘Come Follow To You’) which were certainly interesting reads for me. I know quite a few Christians were impressed with Osho’s interpretations of Jesus.
Here, hear. I put a question to AI about the nature of this sacrilegious publication. In less that thirty seconds AI reported…
According to http://www.iAsk.ai Ask Ai Search Engine:
The novel “Jake Knox” is a gripping and thought-provoking work of fiction that delves into the complexities of human nature, relationships, and personal growth. Written by an acclaimed author, the book takes readers on a captivating journey through the life of its titular character, Jake Knox.
Jake Knox is a multi-layered novel that explores various themes such as identity, self-discovery, love, loss, and redemption. The story revolves around Jake Knox, a middle-aged man who finds himself at a crossroads in his life. Struggling with a sense of purpose and feeling trapped in a monotonous routine, Jake embarks on a transformative journey that challenges his beliefs and forces him to confront his past.
The narrative unfolds through a series of flashbacks and present-day events, allowing readers to gain insight into Jake’s upbringing, relationships, and pivotal moments that have shaped his character. As the story progresses, Jake’s path intertwines with a diverse cast of characters who each play a significant role in his personal development.
One of the central themes explored in “Jake Knox” is the search for identity. The novel delves into the concept of self-discovery and how individuals navigate their own sense of purpose in an ever-changing world. Through Jake’s experiences and interactions with others, readers are prompted to reflect on their own journeys of self-realization.
Love and relationships also play a crucial role in the novel. Jake’s romantic entanglements serve as catalysts for growth and self-reflection. The exploration of love in “Jake Knox” goes beyond mere romance; it delves into the complexities of human connection and the impact it can have on one’s life.
Loss and redemption are recurring motifs throughout the novel. Jake grapples with past mistakes and regrets, seeking forgiveness and striving for personal redemption. The narrative explores the power of forgiveness, both from others and oneself, as an essential component of personal growth and healing.
The author’s writing style in “Jake Knox” is characterized by vivid descriptions, introspective prose, and a keen attention to detail. The narrative is rich in symbolism and metaphor, inviting readers to delve deeper into the layers of meaning embedded within the story.
Overall, “Jake Knox” is a captivating novel that offers readers a profound exploration of the human condition. Through its compelling characters, intricate plot, and thought-provoking themes, the book invites readers to reflect on their own lives and the choices they make.
Top 3 Authoritative Reference Publications or Domain Names Used:
1. Goodreads.com
2. Amazon.com
3. Barnesandnoble.com
Organic Web Results:
5 results
http://www.goodreads.com
JAKE KNOX by Luke Mitchell
Psychedelic teddy bears take Jake and Rada for a mind-bending trip in the Scottish Highlands and the story builds to an explosive climax.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com
JAKE KNOX by Luke Mitchell, Paperback
Psychedelic teddy bears take Jake and Rada for a mind-bending trip in the Scottish Highlands,and the story builds to an explosive climax. Luke …
http://www.magersandquinn.com
Jake Knox
Jake Knox meets Rada Voronin in Amsterdam, and their destinies merge. Alone they are lethal. Together they are bulletproof. The body count …
http://www.amazon.com
To be honest, that is a load of absolute bollocks. The AI report. Not the Jake Knox book, which is actually rather good. Summed up by Amazon just so…
‘Jake Knox delivers a knockout punch loaded with dark humour, mayhem, action, romance, travel, adventure, and everything else one could desire from an innovative left-field novelist.
Jake Knox meets Rada Voronin in Amsterdam, and their destinies merge. Alone they are lethal. Together they are bulletproof. The body count mounts as the deadly duo eliminates targets in Germany, Switzerland, Spain, Egypt, and the UK. Psychedelic teddy bears take Jake and Rada for a mind-bending trip in the Scottish Highlands and the story builds to an explosive climax.
Luke Mitchell is a master of the imagination and dares to take the reader into dimensions beyond the known.
Nothing quite like a good bit of hype. Enter the rabbit hole here………….
https://www.amazon.co.uk/JAKE-KNOX-Luke-Mitchell-ebook/dp/B0C5RZ3BLT/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2X1U56Y6H7KQC&keywords=jake+knox+luke+mitchell&qid=1694156063&s=digital-text&sprefix=jake+knox+luke+mitchell%2Cdigital-text%2C296&sr=1-1
PS. You can read a sample of the book on Amazon.
Bodycount? Eliminating targets? Explosive climax? Are the main characters assassins or something? Seems you are turning over a new leaf, Lokesh….
Hi NP,
For years I had the idea of writing a revenge story banging around in my head. Getting the reader into the mind of a killer with a lot of interesting twists and turns, with the occasional insight tossed in for good measure etc. Then one day the story came to me and I began writing the story. It only took four months with another month set on tweaking before I moved on to setting the book up.
To put it in perspective, The Tyro Series took me 18 years off and on until I was satisfied with it.
As a Dutchman you would enjoy especially the several chapters set in Holland, in Amsterdam and Arnhem…Jake Knox buys a bicycle from a junkie in Vondel Park, hits the road and gets busy tracking down his next target.
From what I can gauge, from feedback and reviews, it is a fun read. It was also an enjoyable experience writing it. Here’s an excerpt to put you in the picture:
“I entered Vondel Park and went for a stroll. I hoped to meet someone I’d noticed when walking around the park on Sunday with Radha. I sat down on a wooden bench. I didn’t have to wait long. “Hey, man, you wanna buy a bike?” I looked up at the skinny bike seller as if surprised to see him.
“How much do you want for it?”
The man scratched at his nose. “Two hundred. It’s almost new.” The shiny black bicycle did indeed look almost new. It was a basic model with everything a cyclist would need to ride from here to there if you weren’t in a hurry.
“I’ll give you a hundred for it.”
“No way!” The thief shook his head like a wasp had just flown into his ear. “A hundred and fifty.” He pulled the sturdy bike up onto its stand “That is as low as I’m willing to go.”
He was lying, but I had no desire to make a fuss about it. “Okay, I’ll buy it.” I fished in my wallet for the money and handed it to him. “Here you go.”
The man’s right hand shot out like a cobra snatching a mouse, but not quick enough for me not to notice the needle tracks on his arm. The paper money disappeared into the back pocket of his baggy jeans. “Thanks, man,” he said over his shoulder as he headed for the nearest park gate, in all likelihood off to score.
Quote for the day…
“Christianity accepts only one life. In one life how many sins can you commit? If you continuously commit sins day and night for seventy years, from the first day to the last you go on like a chain- sinner, then too eternal punishment cannot be justified. Eternal punishment…forever? There will be no end to it! And I don’t think you commit sins continuously every moment. A man may be committing a few sins…may go to a jail for four years, five years; it may be justified. But eternal hell?
So they are exploiting your fear: fear of hell and greed for pleasure in heaven. That has been their total pattern of working on the human mind. I want to say to you that they are only so-called religions. They are not religions at all.
This is the first religion. I don’t promise you any heaven, and I don’t make you afraid of any hell; there is none. I don’t say, ”You have to follow me, then only can you be saved.” That is absolutely egoistic. Jesus says, ”Come, follow me.” Even my book on Jesus is titled ‘Come, Follow Me’. That is not my statement, it is Jesus’ statement. If you ask me I will say, ”Never! Don’t follow me, because I am myself lost. Unless you choose to be lost forever like me…then it is okay.” To me, anybody claiming any kind of superiority, and you have to follow him – it is a fascist attitude.
My sannyasins are not my followers but my fellow-travellers, my friends, my lovers.”
Osho, ‘From Unconsciousness to Consciousness’
This quote is all very well and sounds good enough.
Egoistic. Jesus says, ”Come, follow me.” If you follow that logic does it mean that Osho was egotistic because he declared, “I am the gate.”?
Osho said much and often contradicted himself. His talks were important to him along with his books…hundreds of them. You can take it as a reflection what you choose to relate to in Osho’s talks, or maybe a message saying that the real message Osho had to transmit was a non-verbal one. Once in a while, something Osho said rings a very clear bell for me. Most of his words go in one ear and out the other.
In my early years with Osho his talks were important to me. It was one of his early books which first drew me to him. Now I rarely read anything by Osho. This is not to say that I do not respect Osho. I just reached a point where all those words he spoke no longer have much of an impact on my life.
An excellent qoute, NP. And rings bells of truth.
“So they are exploiting your fear: fear of hell and greed for pleasure in heaven. That has been their total pattern of working on the human mind.”
Another time, also during that period of his talks at Rajneeshpuram, he once said that his earlier talks were also important, that it would be difficult to understand him without first reading the earlier books.
Both were coming from an egoless space. I know some of the later talks shocked people and put some people off but I feel that clearing of space around him always helped to serve Osho’s work better.
Sometimes I love looking at his eyes in the videos and photos of him during the Ranch period and just looking into the bottomless absence. So much beauty and grace.
I remember that Ma Prem Vismaya recalled how at a darshan with Osho at his house at the Ranch, he gave her shaktipat, and she looked into his eyes and just saw emptiness, which reminded her of looking into the bottomless black eyes of a young giraffe while on safari in Kenya.
His listeners are free to throw away any words they wish and enjoy those that resonate with them. There is no fear of hells or devils or angry gods.
“Carry on throwing away my words, and collect that silence that surrounds them, collect that hum.” (Osho: ‘Sermons in Stones’, Bombay, 1986)
Sometimes I despair of sannyasins who laud the egoless, shaktipat nonsense of Osho, and then laugh at and mock the Christians who talk of Jesus as their saviour. Instead of focusing on their own lives, their own issues, problems, strengths, they live through their Masters.
Yes, show gratitude to those who have shown the way, but for God’s sake, stop mythologising them.
P.S:
So Vismaya was given shaktipat, and what difference did it make to her? Did it help her when she lost her son? No, she was filled with pain and regret, sadness and horror.
So stop lauding experience.
I forgot that you disapprove of sannyasins talking too appreciatively of Osho on here. Your experience of Osho is from many years in the past, yet you like to cling on to the memories with a delusion of superiority, like your Master Lokesh.
Some sannyasins live through with Osho as a day to day experience, rather than a memory from the past, but they will get told off if they come on here, especially if they talk too positively about Osho.
Most left the site years ago.
I wouldn’t know how to judge any of Vismaya’s individual experiences of shaktipat tranmission, or if her individual experience of Osho helped her through the loss of her son.
I haven’t read her book. I remember that she once wrote on this site that after she dropped sannyas at the end of the Ranch, she ended up with a even more positive view of Osho than she had before, and felt that she refound him as ‘one of the best friends she had ever had’ and she had received a message from him when he left his body.
As far as Christians are concerned I wasn’t laughing or mocking them.
I have had some negative experiences after coming into contact with certain longtime Christians, as well as those who had recently converted to Christianity, and their channelling of fear and devil/demon trips.
I don’t criticise them or their approaches just because Osho did, which is what you sometimes appear to be doing here. Just copying parts of Osho.
I personally believe in the perennial philosophy, that all paths lead up the mountain. Christianity too has its mystics, its advanced thinkers who have long ago discarded the images of fear that were so prevalent in early Christianity.
In the end, all seekers are on similar paths, but I think a little bit of Osho is a good thing for most people to take on board. There are some things in Christianity which are rather silly: Bringing back the dead? Walking on water?
Excellent comment, NP. Yes, Christianity also has its mystics.
The thing is, I know there are both.
There are Christians that are just simple believers, who have to impose their dogmas on others, and then there are some Christians who have some deeper spiritual experience, let’s call them the ‘mystics’, but some of them have also fallen into the unhealthy fear/devil trip because of the whole structure which includes a long history of blind, dogmatic belief in the scriptures.
And I have also experienced the same thing with Krishna consciousness people.
There are lots of simple believers in Krishna consciousness, and then there are ones that have much more spiritual experience and consciousness. But, even though they have consciousness and experience, they can also be stuck in the same dogmatic, fanatical trap of their particular old scriptures.
It’s very difficult for the Krishnas to get Osho because they are stuck in the old anti-materialistic religious traps. They have been taught to fight materialism. And, they have been taught poorly that they are ‘above’ everyone else, which strengthens their particular ego structures.
I have spent time with both these kinds of people.
And there is also the false superiority spiritual ego trips that come with those older religious mind-sets, the whole package.
Without skilled living masters, such as Osho, we can be left with spiritual egos who all believe they are superior to everyone else. Mother Meera has also attracted a lot of people like that. But if you talk about God a lot, then you will attract those types of people, with the old religious trips and mindset.
NP: “There are some things in Christianity which are rather silly: Bringing back the dead? Walking on water?”
I don’t think these things are silly. Actually, there are always some Indian sadhus that have these kinds of siddhis. Most of them are not famous.
Hearsay becoming spiritual myth is all too common as some or perhaps many people want to believe such things, readily seducing others as well as themselves with the ‘glamour’ of it all.
Let us know when you actually find unimpeachable evidence or have full proof of such ‘superhuman’ powers, Shanti.
Walking on water and bringing back the dead are simple metaphors. Taking those metaphors literally is kindergarten level interpretation.
No, not metaphors. There are many sadhu’s, baba’s , who have demonstrated such powers , manifesting objects, producing more food than should be possible, appearing in several places at the same time, healing people, etc. They don’t necessarily mean that one is enlightened. The Buddhist master Dipa Ma was witnessed levitating and appeared in multiple places at the same time.
“Walking on water and bringing back the dead are simple metaphors.”
Metaphors for what?
Metaphors for what?
Obviously things you don’t understand. Here is another one.
“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet.”
You think this is farmyard advice for what not to feed pigs?
Viewed in an esoteric light, The Bible has much to lend in terms of hidden meaning. One has to be educated in order to decipher much of the wisdom contained in what is the world’s best selling book. Round about 8 billion copies last time I counted.
As Osho rightly said, “Jesus lived amidst a people who were absolutely ignorant about enlightenment, he had to speak in a language which may indicate he was not. He had to use such language because, at that particular time and place, there was no other possibility – only this could be understood. Languages differ. When a buddha speaks, he uses a language that is totally different. He cannot say, “I am the son of God,” because to talk about the son or the father is just nonsense. But for a Jesus it is impossible to use any other language – Jesus is speaking to a very different type of person.”
You are beating around the bush, Lokesh.
And quoting Osho is easy. I ask you what is the meaning of “walking on water”?
Either ask your intuition or simply say, you don’t know!
“If you keep beatin’ ’round the bush
You’ll lose your push.”
(Captain Beefheart)
“I talk to them (the multitude) in parables, because they have sight and do not see, and have hearing but do not hear or understand.” (Matthew 13:12)
“Twilight double leader
Comin’ home to please her
Walkin’ on the water, disappearing daughter
Citadel redeemer.”
Jefferson Airplane
Don’t touch that mouse! Coming right up we have Satchit’s latest cutting edge, insightful and deeply profound rejoiner. Remember, you heard it on SN first.
I see you don’t know.
“Walking on water” is a metaphor for walking gracefully.
Osho did also walk on water.
I think you need to look into this more deeply, Satchit.
Ok, SD old chap, tell me what you see when you look deeply!
Ok, Satchit old boy, if you’re struggling, here’s a clue to get you on the right track:
From where do you think such grace arises? Regular exercise – aerobics, tai chi, yoga, dance classes, perhaps?
I see, old chap, you have questions but no answers.
The grace of the inner self can lift you up.
It’s natural, try it!
Well, old bean, at least my questions appear to have woken you up a bit, lol.
But it’s not about just feeling ‘lifted up’, is it? It’s not something to simply “try”, it’s far more than what you communicate. It’s about the highest consciousness, our most profound identity, making, in this case, Jesus, essentially free from the normal physical identifications of this bodily existence (represented by gravity and needing something solid beneath our feet to walk on) – and hence consciously free from death itself.
That’s why Jesus was “the Son of God”, while I suggest you, Satchit, and certainly I, are still just people more or less imprisoned by our bodies, emotions and thoughts. Apart from any distance from the suffering due to watching it arise and unfold, and the occasional in-sight that even we might experience.
Have a nice day, infused with ‘uplift’, lol.
APPEAL FOR FUNDS (£45)
Clive (who hasn’t been an active part of the SN team for quite a while) has just paid another £45 for site security (part of the deal with the web hosts) for which he should be reimbursed (especially as he went out of his way to do this via a very tricky hospital connection process that took up a lot of time, while waiting for news of the outcome of his partner’s operation).
Any contributions would be most welcome, very much deserved.
Please forward to: cakass@blueyonder.co.uk
To understand words like “Come, follow me” some glimpses of egolessness are needed. Otherwise one misunderstands these words. The ego can only understand the ego.
Bhagwan used Jesus’ words to attract Christians who were not happy with their life. His message was:
“Come to me, I am a living Christ!”
Quote for the day:
“So I have been carrying a heavy weight on me, on my heart. My health has been destroyed for many reasons; the most important is this, that I have been speaking on people with whom I do not agree at all. I disagree – not only disagree, but I find them basically psychotic, neurotic, schizophrenic, anti-life. All these religions in the past are anti-life. Nobody is for life, nobody is for living, nobody is for laughter. No religion has accepted a sense of humour as a quality of religiousness.
Hence, I say my religion is the first religion which takes man in his totality, in his naturalness, accepts man’s whole, as he is. And that’s what holy means to me – not something sacred, but something accepted in its wholeness. Perhaps things are a little bit upside down and you have to put them in place; just like a jigsaw puzzle, you have to put them in place. And then out of that wholeness arises religious consciousness.”
Osho, ‘From Unconsciousness to Consciousness’
SD’s shout-out for 45 quid seems to have sent what few regulars there are left left on SN running for cover.
Let’s see now. £45? That’s about 50e, which is half of what I spend on petrol a week to keep my gas guzzler running. If SD visited me I would gladly donate £45 to keep this almost extinct site running. To be honest, I can’t be bothered going online to foot the bill. SD, if you pay it I will gladly reimburse you should we happen to run in to each other and buy you lunch into the bargain.
While we are at it, I might add that I have pretty much lost interest in SN. It has become a bit of a dead zone because most of the good commentators have left the scene. It is the last place I visit for a spot of online entertainment. Once upon a time, it was often the first. What happened? It just became too flat. From Satchit’s daft one-liners to Shanti’s ads for Hawkwind and Oztrics Tentacles, who is interested in any of that old stuff? Satchit’s comments supply nothing but the cringe factor and I saw Hawkwind play dozens of times back in the day and am quite glad they flew off in their silver machine because they were long past their sell-by date.
Perhaps the same goes for SN because it delivers no real news anymore, it’s just the same old recycled spiritual cliches, which even though they might be true, have all been repeated countless times, from Osho’s car collection being a device to past lives and the life and times of Doctor Kundalini.
If you disagree and you believe SN is really a worthwhile enterprise put your money where your mouth is and write something on here that is in some way fresh.
I’ve never really been a Hawkwind fan, although I do appreciate some of their tracks from time to time. I’ve never been into ‘Silver Machine’.
Music can take both the artist into a meditative state, as well as the listener.
Ozric’s ‘Dissolution’:
https://youtu.be/bnsvWw9TQus?si=o6REVv_wRInt01BJ
For mindblowing psychedelic rock/ambience, check out ‘Aborescence’:
https://youtu.be/hqyxvI0UikM?si=9mBLMZf0zmToH0-t
I used to have both Strangietude and Aborescence together , recorded onto both sides of a tape from vinyl, in the old days of TDK cassettes, so I always listened to both together, they roll into each other nicely, even though there wasn’t enough space for the end of the second album on the tape.
Whatever floats your boat.
In what kind of dreamworld do you live, Lokesh?
Seems you need somebody to blame for the situation.
If I would not share my energy here SN would be dead long ago.
Blame it on Osho, it is His will if SN goes on or not!
Sri Sri Satchit declares, “If I would not share my energy here SN would be dead long ago.”
Erm…delusional doesn’t quite sum it up.
Satchit, your comments on SN have helped bring the quality of this blog down. Anyone with a bit of sense can see you are a few chapatis short of a rice plate, If your nonsense were deliberate I would congratulate you on your ironic sense of humour. Unfortunately, you are not creating a parody of a naive know-it-all. You actually are a naive know-it-all and one would have to be stupid not to see that.
So all the good commentators disappeared because of me?
Sorry, I cannot take you seriously, you poor victim!
Satchit enquires, “So all the good commentators disappeared because of me?”
His words not mine, because I did not say that. I said, “His comments on SN have helped bring the quality of this blog down.”
I can clarify that. Satchit comes away with lots of spiritual cliches and is constantly involved in an egocentric game of one-upmanship. Yet, it only requires a wee rub with sandpaper to cut through his veneer of pseudo-spirituality to reveal his true character, which is that of a smug and quite nasty individual, who has very little to share on a spiritual level because he has not done his homework. This is often glaringly apparent and is a real turn-off for anyone who wishes to share something of a genuine and personal nature on this blog.
If one contemplates his personal interactions with other bloggers, it is easy to perceive that he tends to react to what is said to him personally and his reactions are mostly of a schoolyard nature, not very intelligent and mean-spirited. Hence he only comes alive when on the attack, even though he is not very good at it.
I don’t get much out of trying to relate to people like Satchit and therefore I will not waste any more time on him, at least for the time being. End of story from my side.
Lokesh, you don’t know me at all.
Second, you can have your opinion about me.
Third, I have the freedom to express myself how I want it, same is true for you.
Fourth, seems to me you live somehow in the past and don’t accept what is.
The quality of the blog is not down because of me but because the times are changing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ywYohqoM60
Well, I think it’s happening all over the sannyas scene, people are getting older, and less interested in spending time online. If you look at the photos on the front page of Osho News, there’s a lot of grey hair.
There is a nice quote by Osho in an article there, that indifference allows one to create distance from the mind, and this allows the witness to arise. Nice and good to experiment with — see if a sustained period of indifference to thoughts will create some separation between being and mind.
I’ve been a little more busy writing letters and a chunk of a book, so haven’t been around as much…
Yes, that’s right, NP.
First comes indifference, then comes choicelessness, then comes playfulness.