“Never Born, Never Died”…

To mark Osho’s birth anniversary today here are 15 quotes chosen by ‘The Indian Express’ :

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    Osho, also known as Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, Acharya Rajneesh or just Rajneesh,was born on December 11, 1931, as Chandra Mohan Jain. He went on to become a spiritual guru and lead the Rajneesh movement. Though he was surrounded by controversy, the teacher always had an air of mysticism surrounding him. He was known for his stand against socialism, for criticising Mahatma Gandhi and the orthodox religious teachings of the Hindu religion. He was a public speaker and vocally advocated an open attitude towards human sexuality and sex education, for which he came to be known as “sex guru”. His teachings and words of wisdom continue to be reminisced, even after his death on January 19, 1990. Here are some of the most popular quotes by the spiritual leader. (Source: Photo by Rajan Sharma)

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    (Source: Photo by Rajan Sharma)

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    (Source: Photo by Rajan Sharma)

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    (Source: Photo by Rajan Sharma)

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    (Source: Photo by Rajan Sharma)

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    (Source: Photo by Rajan Sharma)

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382 Responses to “Never Born, Never Died”…

  1. Thanks, SD, for the remembrance and finding the quotes!

    A bit of silence today here in the snow with sunshine.

  2. swamishanti says:

    ” He was known for his stand against socialism..”

    ” Remember, if capitalism is developed properly, socialism will be its natural outcome–in a pregnancy of nine months the child comes out of its mothers womb naturally and silently.
    So, talk of socialism when capitalism has not yet grown to its full height, is suicidal.
    I am myself a socialist, so it will surprise you when I ask you to beware of socialism.
    I also want the child of socialism to come to India, but on one condition–that it completes its full nine months in the mothers womb. This country has not achieved capitalism as yet. So talk of socialism here at this moment is as dangerous…as dangerous as it proved in Russia, and is going to be proved in China. China is out to kill millions, and yet socialism will not come there, because nothing in life happens before its time. The law of life does not permit haste. This country has yet to develop its capitalist system….
    What do I mean when I warn you against socialism? I ask you to let the time of pregnancy be complete. Capitalism is that time of pregnancy–let it complete nine months….

    If I warn you against socialism, it does not mean that I am the enemy of socialism.
    Many people find contradictions in what I say. But what I say is so simple, so clear. I repeat: Socialism will stem from capitalism if the latter is allowed its full growth.”
    Osho: ‘Beware of Socialism’ (1970)

    ” Socialism can only come after the full development of capitalism. Socialism will be like a fruit on the tree of capitalism. And if socialism develops rightly, then a social condition may arise in which equality and the good of all will happen. One may call it sarvodaya and another may call it communism — names dont make a difference. The road does not go from sarvodaya to socialism. but from socialism to sarvodaya; and no socialism is possible without developing capitalism.”
    Osho: ‘Beware of Socialism’ (1970)

    “Capitalism is a state of freedom; thats exactly why I am in support of it. It allows you all kinds of freedoms. Communism will not allow you all kinds of freedoms; communism will give you only one ideology to believe in — there is no question of choice…
    A real socialism will come out of capitalism as a by-product. ”

    Osho: ‘Come come yet again come’ (1980)

    “ Communism makes people drab and dull, placid, because nobody feels the freedom to be himself, so joy disappears from life. Nobody feels any enthusiasm to work for others. That is unnatural, inhuman. How can you feel enthusiasm if you are working for the inhuman state, the machinery called the state? When you work for your children, your wife, there is enthusiasm. If you are working for your wife and you would like her to have a beautiful house, a small cottage in the hills, you are in great enthusiasm. You would like your children to be healthy; you are in great enthusiasm. Who cares for the state? For what?

    The state is an abstraction; nobody can love the state. That’s why in Russia and in China you will find people dragging, dull. Their intelligence has lost color, they are no more rainbows of life. “

    Osho: ‘The Secret’ (1978)

    “Communism creates a vacuum ; that is why I support it. My whole vision is that that vacuum can be only filled by meditation.”
    Osho: ‘Communism and Zen Fire Zen Wind’ (1989)

    ” I am an anarchist. ”
    Osho: ‘The Last Testament’ vol 6 (1985 )

    “I am all for richness – but the richness will be of the commune. As the commune becomes richer, every individual will become richer. I am against poverty, I am not a worshiper of poverty. I don’t see anything spiritual in being poor; it is sheer stupidity. Neither poverty is spiritual, nor sickness is spiritual, nor hunger is spiritual. A commune should live in such a way that it becomes richer and richer, in such a way that it does not produce too many children, that it does not overproduce people, because overproduction of people is bound to create beggars, is bound to create orphans. And once there are orphans there are Mother Teresas to convert them into Catholicism.

    All the communes should be interdependent, but they will not exchange money.

    Money should be dissolved. It has done tremendous harm to humanity – now it is time to say good-bye to it, because money can be accumulated. And if one commune becomes richer than the other communes, then comes from the back door the poverty and the richness and the whole nightmare of capitalism, and the classes of the poor and the rich, and the desire to dominate. Because you are rich, you can enslave other communes. Money is one of the enemies of man.”

    Osho : ‘The Golden Future’ (1987)

    “I am absolutely anti-political. Deep down I am an anarchist. My ultimate goal finally is that there should be a humanity without any government. Government is a condemnation of every one of us. The very existence of the government and the police and the army shows that we are still not civilized. ”
    Osho: ‘ Satyam Shivam Sundram’ (1987)

    ” When I say no government is the best government I know perfectly well that perhaps it will not ever be possible. But it is better to have dreams that are impossible but are of some higher consciousness, of beauty, love. Perhaps if the idea goes on existing, some day we may come close to it. We may not be able to achieve it in its totality – hence I say, the closest to no government is one government, which is not impossible. And after one government, no government becomes very possible. ”
    Osho: ‘ From darkness to light ‘ (1985)

    IN YOUR OPINION, WHICH IS THE IDEAL POLITICAL REGIME AND WHICH IS THE WORST?

    “The criterion is anarchism. Whichever regime is closer to anarchism is better – the closest to anarchism is the best – whichever is farther away from anarchism is worse.
    Fascism is the farthest, dictatorship the farthest; they are the worst.
    Anarchism is my criterion.
    The best regime can only be meritocracy, which will be very close to anarchism. Just one step more and all regimes disappear.
    Anarchism… No government means absolute freedom, and freedom is the ultimate value of life. ”

    Osho: ‘Socrates poisoned again after 25 centuries’ (1986)

    ” So communism is a first step. The second step is spiritualism, and the third step is anarchism. Anarchism is not possible unless people are really, authentically spiritual. Prince Kropotkin, Tolstoy, Bakunin; all were unaware of the fact that they were talking about the flowers but they had forgotten about the roots and the trunk. You cannot create flowers without roots, without a trunk. Communism is just the roots, and the trunk will be meditation.
    And the flowers will be a world without any domination, without any interference with individual growth; — a world without states, a world without boundaries. Just a world consisting of individuals— not organizations, not nations, not races. These are the three steps, and I can see them clearly because I have no identification with anything — neither communism nor spiritualism nor anarchism. I am just a witness.”

    Osho ‘ Communism and Zen Fire Zen Wind’ (1989)

    • Nityaprem says:

      Interesting collection of sayings, Swamishanti. One can certainly compartmentalise the mind to talk about the systems in which we live, as separate from the path we choose to walk as spiritual individuals.

      Do we think the world will ever come so far as to only be comprised of Buddhas? So that young people will refuse to fight in armies, and older people in power will not instigate conflicts. That there will be no organised crime or gangs?

      • swamishanti says:

        “Do we think the world will ever come so far as to only be comprised of Buddhas?
        So that young people will refuse to fight in armies, and older people in power will not instigate conflicts. That there will be no organised crime or gangs?”

        `Only comprised of Buddhas` – No, I don`t think so.

        `So that young people will refuse to fight in armies, and older people in power will not instigate conflicts. That there will be no organised crime or gangs?`

        I think it is quite possible that we will reach a stage in the future whereby there are different values, the population is more conscious and armed conflicts have been made redundant, or avoided at any cost.

        The more people earnest in meditation there are means the more Buddhas in the world.
        Osho`s enlightened contribution has certainly helped tremendously with the growth of planetary consciousness.

        His enlightened disciples can be found in various places around the planet and in the process of helping others.

        And Osho continues to help so many people in the process of meditation through his talks and books, which are free of many of the limitations of the organised religions.

        • Nityaprem says:

          It is a good question that Lokesh posed, Shanti, what exactly is ‘planetary consciousness’? If it is the field of meditation, arguably Buddhism and mindfulness have done more for it than the entire sannyas movement.

          It’s a phrase that calls to mind a bit of New Age thinking, which these days seems to be all caught up in extra-dimensional entities, ancient civilisations and planetary shifts. Just so much rubbish to ensnare and confuse the unwary. The whole space seems rife with scams.

          I much prefer the stories of Mother Ayahuasca, the guiding mother spirit that brings visions to those who have taken the South American brew. It’s a more earthy wisdom, about rivers and forests and birth. It has its own sacredness.

  3. Nityaprem says:

    Loved the quotes, cheers, Satyadeva. Some resonated, some did not, it reminds me again that Osho said so many things that you cannot find harmony with them all. But if there are just a few things that really speak to you, it can start an inner revolution!

  4. Lokesh says:

    Shanti declares, “Osho`s enlightened contribution has certainly helped tremendously with the growth of planetary consciousness.”

    I’m not sure as to whether that is certain or not. I think most readers on SN have a notion of what the term planetary consciousness might represent. I would be interested to hear from Shanti what form or forms this growth that Osho has contributed to has taken and why he describes it as tremendous. We have a major war going on in Ukraine, the tipping point for saving our environment from collapsing seems to have tipped in the wrong direction, man’s quest for more of everything material seems unabated, meanwhile, half the world’s population is living on under $5 a day.

    In other words, it is the same old same old. Our history as a species is filled with war and violence and greed and unfairness. That does not seem to have changed. We may even be on the brink of a nuclear war. Well, that would certainly get things back to basics. Simplify things, one might say.

    As a species, we are part of a fine organic membrane covering the earth. One could speculate that we are part of something the planet needs for some planetary purpose. As George Carlin suggested, maybe the planet created us because it needs a lot of styrofoam for reasons unknown to us.

    Osho was all for the individual. Individuals can and have, in certain rare cases, evolved rapidly. Planetary consciousness evolves very slowly, slowly as in a paraplegic snail’s pace. Last big leap seems to hark back to Terrance Mackenna’s stoned monkey hypothesis. I reckon that in terms of consciousness modern man is little different than his cousins living in ancient Rome. Instead of going to the arena to see gladiators we switch on the telly and watch football matches.

    Shanti concludes, “Osho’s enlightened disciples can be found in various places around the planet and in the process of helping others.”
    Really? Could Shanti name a dozen of these enlightened ones and tell us how he knows they are actually enlightened? I doubt he will.

    What these statements boil down to is sensationalistic hyperbole. It sounds amazing but I doubt there is that much truth in it. Osho certainly contributed a lot, but whether or not that affected planetary consciousness is debatable. Just a tiny positive shift in human consciousness created by the efforts of one man is remarkable. Tremendous shifts? Erm…could you tell me about some positive ones, please, because when I think about tremendous shifts in human consciousness I think about Joe Stalin and Adolf Hitler.

    It could well be the case that this world is exactly how it is supposed to be and there is a good reason for that. The lotus grows out of the mud because it needs mud to nourish itself. This very muddy place the Lotus paradise. And this very muddy body the Buddha. Yes, imagine, this very muddy place might already be perfect the way it is, right here, right now. Who needs planetary consciousness? If you are simply conscious when making a cup of tea that is enough.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Well, a lot of Osho’s “enlightened disciples” are now reaching the age of senility and are discovering just how much of their spiritual progress was in their rapidly-fading memories of Osho, rather than any great merit they themselves accumulated. Alzheimer pilsner all around.

      But I wouldn’t say I wholly disagree with Shanti’s “big leap forward in consciousness”. At the time Osho was quite successful in moving the needle, and his attitudes to therapy, meditation and sex cleared the way for much that was to come. I’m just not sure that Osho is as effective without his ashram, his meditation centres, his presence. What’s left is largely the books.

      Now seems to be the moment of mindfulness. Western civilisation is still trying to get to grips with the contact with Buddhism in the 1950’s and 1960’s, when the likes of Shunryu Suzuki and Alan Watts were popularising it. Now we find pieces of meditation practice becoming part of modern psychotherapy’s toolbox, and it’s moving outwards into the wider society under the mum of ‘stress reduction’.

      Funny that you should mention Terence McKenna. He seems to be having a bit of a revival on YouTube (just as interest in psychedelic research is taking off again), where some interested parties are putting up a lot of his lectures. The last couple of years I have been listening to many talks by him, its been wonderful.

      • swamishanti says:

        Nityaprem says:
        “Well, a lot of Osho’s “enlightened disciples” are now reaching the age of senility and are discovering just how much of their spiritual progress was in their rapidly-fading memories of Osho, rather than any great merit they themselves accumulated. Alzheimer pilsner all around.”

        NP, this isn’t really the case.

        Osho`s enlightened disciples are not only confined to those who became enlightened during his lifetime, or even afterwards.
        Some of those who attained enlightenment with Osho`s help were merged with his consciousness, with his Presence. That means if you sit with them you may become aware that you are also feeling Osho`s Presence.

        Not all of them, of course. Some of the old timers benefitted from being in Osho`s presence, yet realised later without it.

        But far from being a `rapidly fading memory`, Osho is an everyday reality for some of the enlightened.

        And this has not only happened to some of those disciples whilst Osho was in the body, but also to some sannyasins afterwards.

        Also, far from being `senile`, there are actually much younger sannyasins who have become/are becoming enlightened today.

        You go on: “I’m just not sure that Osho is as effective without his ashram, his meditation centres, his presence. What’s left is largely the books.”

        Outside of this little SN box there is a wide world in Sannyas out there, with thousands of disciples meditating. The result of a lot of sannyasins earnestly meditating and searching for enlightenment is going to be enlightened sannyasins. It is an obvious equation.

        You seem to be talking in the past tense, the truth is that Osho`s Presence is still very much a supportive, very real phenomenon, still serving its purpose of helping people to wake up.

        And if sannyasins feel the need for support from a living Master in the body, they often will have heard of various enlightened sannyasins who are teaching publicly here and there.

    • swamishanti says:

      Indeed, Lokesh, the earth is filled with wars and violence and unfairness. The `same old, same old”.

      There appears to be little progress in the way of growth in human consciousness.

      I have a lot of experience with Mother Meera, by the way. She has said that she is in the process of helping the planetary consciousness to evolve by spreading Light which will be beneficial for human spiritual evolution.

      I am sceptical that anything is really changing that much, being aware of the world around me. It certainly doesn’t look that way. The last major shift in planetary consciousness I believe was back in the sixties.

      However, I’ve also experienced a lot through Mother Meera. She has said that enlightenment is actually a rare thing, most people who claim `awakening` have achieved a high state of awareness, some realisation, but enlightenment is something else, after which it becomes difficult to stay in the body.

      She has also told me that Osho was the real deal, and that she considers his Presence as `God’. I cannot myself say that anything in particular is `God`, `God` has become an extremely polluted word and the cause of many problems historically through religions. Yet I have had incredible and undeniable experiences with Mother Meera which verify that she is in touch with extremely potent forces if nothing else, without giving too much away.

      Osho`s Presence is now everywhere, his brain is no-more and he is no longer a person. He is no longer a living Master, as it were. But a mystery that can be encountered. Actually he always knew it would be that way.

      You chirped, “Osho certainly contributed a lot, but whether or not that affected planetary consciousness is debatable.”

      There are a lot of sannyasins out there, a lot of sannyasins means a lot of meditation. The equation of a lot of people listening to/reading Osho and meditating is going to mean a rise in planetary consciousness.

      • Lokesh says:

        Shanti, on the subject of chirping. You recently chirped about experiencing satori with Maitreya, who you mistakenly believe to have been an enlightened one. I knew him from way back and we had a friendly relationship over many years. Last time I saw him, during his enlightened phase, he was definitely not enlightened and very much identified with his ego trips. The lovable rogue that he was, his whole enlightenment trip was a load of bullshit. That said, he did carry a very meditative vibe at times that was so strong it was tangible. But enlightened? Forget it.

        So, when it comes to your experiences with Mummy Meera I take that with a pinch of curry powder because you are obviously capable of projecting your dreams onto such figures, taking into account how you viewed Maitreya. Same goes for your ideas about enlightened sannyasins and Osho waking people up, which certainly hasn’t worked for you, taking into consideration all the spiritual hogwash you come away with, which knocks the spiritual bullshit meter into the red.

        Maitreya was a fun guy who hustled up quite a lot of money with his Buddha trip. Some individuals were very pissed off about it when they realised they’d been conned.

        • satchit says:

          Lokesh, to recognize that somebody is enlightened one needs to be enlightened by oneself. This is not the case with you.

        • swamishanti says:

          Sometimes you appear to me like a rebellious teenager in the class, Lokesh.
          Perhaps Osho feels like the authority figure for you, a father figure who you feel the need to rebel against.

          Anyhow, you are not a judge of who’s enlightened and who’s not.

          • Nityaprem says:

            Enlightenment is a bit of a game, if you look at how Osho shows the way. One moment someone credible makes the claim, the next moment they are exposed as a fraud…sometimes I think the whole thing is a joke, and we take it far too seriously.

            Who we think is enlightened is something we have to make up our own minds about. As far as I’m concerned anyone can make a claim, and anyone can rubbish a claim. The talk around it really doesn’t matter, if the person is really enlightened it will be obvious on meeting them.

            • satchit says:

              Fact is, NP, for one person it will be obvious, for the other it will be a fraud – the many faces of emptiness.

              Btw, Sannyas is a game too.

              • Nityaprem says:

                If it’s not obvious then they are not enlightened for you, the right master for you. Or perhaps you are not ready yourself. A bit of sincere questing is required before you get that far.

                If you think that everything is a game, then games are all you will find and you will be stuck in the land of illusion.

                • satchit says:

                  I did not say that everything is a game.
                  But Sannyas is a game – or better to say, play.

                  A dog chasing its tail.
                  Certainly Shanti can find a quote.

                • swamishanti says:

                  “ SANNYAS is the ultimate game – the last, the final. Beyond it there is no game. It had to be very colorful. The householder, the grihasth, plays a game but it is in black and white. Poor. A sannyasin is playing a game but not in black and white. It is colorful. A sannyasin has to become a rainbow because the moment you know that everything is empty everything becomes possible; because that emptiness has in it all.

                  To me, sannyas is not renunciation against indulgence. No. It is renunciation in indulgence. Sannyas is not leaving the world; it is living in the world as if you are out of it – it is an ‘as if’ phenomenon. You live in the world but you are not in it; you move in the world, but never, never, do you take a single step in it; you remain in the world but you don’t allow the world to enter into you…

                  That’s why I call sannyas the last game: on the periphery it may look serious, but at the center it is a deep laughter. My sannyasins are not serious people – not that they are not sincere; they are not serious. In fact, a sincere person is never serious. Seriousness is a deceptive thing, seriousness gives you a feeling of sincerity which is not there. A sincere person can laugh and remain sincere; a serious person cannot laugh because if he laughs the seriousness is broken. Sincerity is never broken, it is authentic; seriousness is just a facet, a mask.

                  My sannyasins are not serious. That is the whole point to be understood. All other types of sannyasins are serious, they don’t have laughter within them. They are afraid of the world; in fact, they are cowards, escapists. If the world is really an illusion, then why escape from it? If in fact you have realized that the whole world is maya then where are you going and for what? Nobody ever renounces dreams. How can you renounce something which is not? When you renounce the world you are into its reality too much. You may call it maya, illusion, but you don’t understand what you are saying. You call it an illusion just to console yourself that you have not left a reality – it was an illusion. But these consolations won’t do. You know it is real. Otherwise why have you left it?

                  To me, sannyas is an awakening, not an escape. It is an awareness of the whole phenomenon of life – that it is a game.
                  If it is a game, play it well, that’s all. Play it beautifully, and while it lasts, enjoy it. Don’t cling to it, because it is a game; don’t get mad about it, because it is a game. And when you understand that it is a game, why not let it be colorful?

                  …play the game as beautifully as you can; but it is a game – don’t get serious about it. And even if sometimes seriousness is needed, let it be a game, nothing more. Sometimes it is needed. It gives a taste to life. Sometimes you need to be serious also. Be serious, but never become serious, let that also be a game. Let everything be a game.
                  And sannyas is the last game. Beyond it the whole world of game disappears. Then there is reality.
                  So this is just the last thing you are going to do. Do it as perfectly as possible – delight in it, dance in it, let it be a deep singing, a rejoicing. “

                  Osho: ‘Tao: The Three Treasures’ Vol 2 chapter 10:
                  ‘Every Buddha Enriches the Universe’
                  30 June 1975 am in Buddha Hall, Pune, India

        • Re: Maitreya

          Actually, I mistook the ‘Western’ Maitreya for the enlightened one as pronounced by Osho.
          At that time I did not know of the ‘Eastern’ Maitreya to whom Osho was indeed giving the accolade.

          Anyways, at that time I took the stories of M.’West’ as inspiration.

      • satyadeva says:

        “She has also told me that Osho was the real deal, and that she considers his Presence as `God’.”

        How did MM tell you this, Shanti, was it during a face-to-face conversation?

        “Yet I have had incredible and undeniable experiences with Mother Meera which verify that she is in touch with extremely potent forces if nothing else, without giving too much away.”

        Why the secrecy, Shanti?

        • Lokesh says:

          Shanti likes to imagine he is privy to secret info, because he does not understand that the big secret is there is no big secret.

        • swamishanti says:

          She has told me this directly, SD, and she is very familiar with me and Osho`s presence.
          Let’s just leave it at that.

          • Lokesh says:

            Scandal. Is Shanti Mama Meera’s toy boy?…she is, after all, very familiar with him.
            Familiar…in close friendship; intimate.
            Golly! Who would have guessed?

            Meanwhile, we have Osho’s presence and Mama Meera is very familiar with that also. I do hope she knows what she is getting herself into. Scandal. Mama Meera has sex with holy ghost in the middle of the night. Holy ghost says it is not possible to have a relationship with him. Mama Meera denies trying. Only Shanti knows the truth about this whole sordid affair.

            Remember, you heard it on Sannyasnews first.

            • Nityaprem says:

              Where is Frank, anyway? We haven’t heard from him in ages.

            • dominic says:

              Bloody hell, whatever next?
              That’s a lot to swallow, Lokesh!

              Is Mother Meera scrubbing the carrot of enlightenment with Shanti, or is it all happening on the cloud with avatars?
              After all the sects tourism, has he found the ‘One’?

              Anyway, time is running out for all of us, so if you can find a little love in this crazy world and not die alone, and they happen to be an Avatar…Bingo.
              Makes a change from bashing the bishop (and other christians).

              Props to Shanti, he’s a full-on sects machine in the missionary position.

              On the other hand, if this is just lurid SN sensationalism to increase circulation in the febrile brains of ageing SN readers, it’s no bad thing either.

              Hare Xmas

              • swamishanti says:

                Goddess and vulva worship existed in the islands of Britain long before Christianity, before the Catholic missionaries came with their not so enlightened spirituality doctrines and their fear and ignorance and started burning women and any Goddess worshippers they could find in their unholy inquisition.

                • dominic says:

                  I used to drive a vulva, nice ride, very reliable, I wouldn’t worship one though, women don’t respect you if you worship them, in my experience.

                  As for pagans, druids, Celts, all living together in harmony, in a rainbow hippie commune, worshipping the goddess, it’s looking back at history through new age goggles. Apparently, Halloween and trick or treat, was when druids would go round knocking on doors looking for a young female virgin to sacrifice to the gods. It wasn’t all love, light and kumbaya, wicker man anyone?

                  We don’t have written records, but the Romans described their ritual sacrifice and cannibalism, which could have been state propaganda of course, but recent archeological finds suggest there was truth to it.

                  Vikings did the same, and in Mesoamerica the aztecs would sacrifice c. 250,000 people a year to their gods, by cutting out their hearts while still alive (Apocalypto) On one 4 day special occasion, it was 80,000.

                  Christianity, starting with the Romans, was more about empire building and unity, methinks.

                  But yes, horrible histories full of Hieronymous Bosch torture and sin, the Dark Ages indeed, with a few perks from the Romans: roads, heating, baths, sewage disposal, language, maths, money, law, gladiator movies…Remember with Christianity, nobody could read, and it was all in Latin, so that people relied upon a few sick minds to tell them about what Jesus never said.

                  When some brave souls tried to translate the Bible, they got burned at the stake, just one gory torture out of many employed.

                  We’re talking about a very long period of history, and I’m no historian, jumping from Romans to Catholic Inquisitions and on.

                  I couldn’t defend Christianity’s past, except to say I don’t see anything in the founder’s teaching to promote all the horrors, which was mostly about power and control.

                  Today it seems pretty benign, just one option amongst many, and the positives of Judeo-Christian-Greco ideas have gone into making the West so successful.

                  As for worshipping the feminine in recent times, you might also end up with bio-terrorism, bomb planting, rigging elections, spying, betrayal, histrionics….

                • Lokesh says:

                  Good post, Dominic. I am currently reading Robert Harris’s Cicero trilogy. Great historical thriller set in ancient Rome. One thing it brings home is that, as far as political intrigue is concerned, nothing much has changed during the last 2000 years on that level.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I found women found my worshipping of their vulvas most satisfactory. I can also enjoy ‘worship’ of my male member.

                  One of the blessings of the Sannyas path is that these activities and pleasures can be enjoyed without condemnation as ‘sinful’ or ‘dirty’ – as they have been condemned in particular by the Patriachal Judeo-Christian group of religions.

                  In some Christian traditions, women are seen as inherently sinful, as tempting men to disobey their god. Thus, in some Christian sects, women are not allowed to conduct religious ceremonies. The great Roman Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas once taught that females developed from a defective seed.

                  As you mention, we don’t really know how accurate the Roman reports of the goddess devotees/native British Celt tribes are, or if they were state propaganda, yet whatever the case, animal and human sacrifice have been a part of most religious traditions at one point or the other.

                  I remember one day strolling casually through Calcutta , and ending up spontaneously at a large Mother Kali temple which was interesting enough. Whilst inside, I witnessed young baby goats being taken to be sacrificed for the diety and beheaded with a large blade. I wasn’t impressed, with the bleating and obvious fear of the poor little muttons as they screamed and struggled in protest as they were taken to the altar, it was clear that they knew their fate.

                  Beheadings were commonplace in Britain and gruesome methods of torture and execution, being ‘hung, drawn and quartered’, was also considered acceptable as the statutory penalty for men convicted of high treason from the 13th century.
                  The heads of men who challenged the state were sometimes left impaled on London Bridge as a warning to the fate of ‘traitors’ to the general population.

                  Hanging, drawing, and quartering was abolished in England by the Forfeiture Act 1870 .

                  Slavery was abolished in Britain in 28th August 1833.

                  Women over 30 were given the right to vote since 1918.

                  We appear to have move progressively forward in some ways, and gained various freedoms.

                  At the same time, we have lost many things too, including ancient woodlands, certain rights and freedoms, free fairs and festivals, ancient knowledge of natural medicines has been replaced by big pharma, our current day modern society, living largely cut off from nature, is surely unhealthier in certain ways, without going into lengthy details.

                  In more recent times, helped along by the development of the mobile phone, the growth of the internet and social media,
                  people are beginning to wake up to the fact we are also now living in a mass surveillance society.

                  Edward Snowden, former contractor for the NSA and CIA, leaked highly classified information to the media, details of extensive internet and phone surveillance by American intelligence agencies, and exposed serious privacy breaches.

                  But it was not only the American spy programme which Snowden exposed. In 2013, he revealed that the UK intelligence agency GCHQ, based in Cheltenham, was in the process of collecting all online and telephone data in the UK via the ‘Tempora’ programme.

                  According to Snowden, GCHQ has also had access to the US internet monitoring programme PRISM from at least as far back as June 2010.

                  PRISM is said to give the National Security Agency and FBI easy access to the systems of nine of the world’s top internet companies, including Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple, Yahoo, and Skype.

                  In February 2014, The Guardian newpaper, based on documents provided by Snowden, revealed that GCHQ had indiscriminately collected 1.8 million private Yahoo webcam images from users across the world.

                  In the same month NBC and The Intercept, based on documents released by Snowden, revealed the Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group and the Computer Network Exploitation units within GCHQ.

                  Their mission was cyber operations based on “dirty tricks” to shut down enemy communications, discredit, and plant misinformation on enemies. These operations were 5% of all GCHQ operations according to a conference slideshow presented by the GCHQ.

                  In 2015, documents obtained by The Intercept from Edward Snowden revealed that GCHQ had carried out a mass-surveillance operation, codenamed KARMA POLICE, since about 2008.

                  The operation automatically swept up the IP address of Internet users visiting websites, and was established without public knowledge.

                  KARMA POLICE is a powerful spying tool in conjunction with other GCHQ programs because IP addresses could be cross-referenced with other data.

                  The goal of the programme, according to the documents, was “either (a) a web browsing profile for every visible user on the internet, or (b) a user profile for every visible website on the internet.”

                • Nityaprem says:

                  I think it is no coincidence that the Buddha asked his followers to:

                  - not kill
                  - not steal
                  - not lie
                  - not commit sexual misconduct
                  - not take intoxicants

                  It is said that doing this helps one avoid heavy karmic burdens, so it is in your best interest.

                  If everyone around the world were to commit to this, there would not be wars and many crimes would be wiped away.

                  It seems a small thing for a spiritual human being….

                • swamishanti says:

                  “ It is said that doing this helps one avoid heavy karmic burdens, so it is in your best interest.”

                  Yes, it may be said by Buddhists but we don’t really know if this is true or even if karma exists as such. It may well do but I no longer accept it as a fact as I myself don’t know if it is really the case or just invented to try to get people to behave better, and then a belief taken on board by enlightened people.

                  It isn’t realistic for everyone in the world to follow those rules you mentioned, and it never will be. Spiritual types from different pathways always have some idea of creating a ‘better world’, as it were.

                  Actually, there are Tibetan Buddhist masters who have historically used intoxicants. Marpa went to the pub.
                  And Tibetan lamas including the Dalai Lama also eat meat.

                  I come across indignant Buddhist moralists quite a lot (and I am not in any way talking about yourself, NP, here) but the way they assume theirselves spiritually superior to Osho/sannyasins always makes me laugh, as well as their up their arse, holier-than-thou ego trip. I guess that’s the problem with organised religions, the codes.

                  Buddhism may have produced a lot of enlightened people, but it is little out-of-date.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “”It is said that doing this helps one avoid heavy karmic burdens, so it is in your best interest.”

                  Yes, it may be said by Buddhists but we don’t really know if this is true or even if karma exists as such. It may well do but I no longer accept it as a fact as I myself don’t know if it is really the case or just invented to try to get people to behave better, and then a belief taken on board by enlightened people.”

                  Are you sure, Shanti? What about simple cases where actions have consequences, eg if you cause someone harm they’re highly likely to hold it against you and maybe take revenge, if so inclined? Or when someone is grateful for your help and gives thanks, maybe a gift in return, making you feel good? Or when for some reason you’re unhappy, screwed up, and ‘the world’ wants to avoid you, and vice versa, creating loneliness? Or when you feel good and attract people?

                  There are countless actions/reactions in our lives, with varying degrees of outcomes, short- and long-term, on individual and collective levels – isn’t that obvious from even a little examination?

                  Barry Long’s talk on Karma is well worth a listen, I recommend it:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWXWLpdLJ3w

                • swamishanti says:

                  I agree that every action has a reaction and affects everything else. But whether there is a universal law built into life on this planet as such, that means that every action we make creates a similar consequence for us at some point later in time, in the lives of every soul,I can’t say that this is a fact as I am unable to see the whole picture. I question things more than I used to, despite experience with beings who say that karmas and reincarnation is real.

                • satyadeva says:

                  If you listen to the BL talk, Shanti, you’ll find a more down-to-earth elucidation of ‘the karmic law’ and its practical implications for us. Demystifying the whole thing – beautiful, refreshing – and challenging.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Karma may well be a fact.

                  Mother Meera has said that she is able to see various karmas in an individual, and Osho also said the same on various occasions.

                  Currently, I can’t accept it as a definite fact as I can’t verify that myself and don’t know how the cosmic game works.

                  Ramana Maharshi stated that everything is already predetermined, including all karmas, by the ‘great controller’.
                  He was into Shiva and this is common belief in Shaivism.

                  Ramesh Balsekar was a successor of the famous South Indian advaita master Nisargaddata Maharaj, who has now become very popular with spiritual seekers in North America (which has led to some editing of one of the accounts of Maharaj’s life by American Christian moralist propagandists as I mentioned in another thread).

                  Ramesh believed that everything is predetermined by ‘Source’, yet there is no karmas or past lives.
                  He took this belief from his masters master, Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj.
                  That is also a tantric line of Shaivism.
                  Siddharameshwar Maharaj believed in predetermination, yet was against the idea of karmic cause and effect.

                  He called that a ‘powerful poison’, as he believed that it feeds the ego of the moralist, the one who believes that he is the do-gooder and on the ‘right path’, whilst feeling superior to others.

                • …”started burning women…and any Goddess worshippers….”

                  Found this hypnotic song by Christie Moore:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvp1nyq4-m0

                  “‘Burning Times’ (lyrics in video)
                  This song is about some of the black chapters of Christianity.
                  Original by Charlie Murphy”

              • Dominic and Lokesh

                Re: political intrigue

                I got a little bit into some research on Twitter regarding the ‘Neo-Apostolic Reformation movement’:
                https://twitter.com/KiraResistance/status/1603909150366482432

                Quote:
                “Pennsylvania???? here we have a local New Apostolic Reformation prophet broadcasting live 1/6/21 at the Capitol
                ⚠️”I know that Tr*mp was sent by God as a voice of intercession. He supports Israel. He supports Godly values…We bind witchcraft in the name of Jesus.”
                BlueCrew”
                Unquote

                These are Radical Christian fundamentalists following the 7 mountains dominionism doctrine of their supremacy also in politics ie they do not accept the separation of State and Church. Not only in the USA but worldwide.
                Research shows that their activities may have started as early as in the 80s with Ronald Reagan.

                In this way, there is kind of a full circle of Dominic’s and Lokesh’s historical references with Swamishanti’s hints at the puritanical Christians (and others) rampant nowadays too.

                Intrigue behind the scenes that should be known but could not be known by the normal folks without thorough investigation and research and the help of others.

                But there are, imo, far too many intrigues going on. So one would have ‘to specialise’. Like with these Radical Christian Fundamentalists in the US of A.

          • satyadeva says:

            Could you be a lttle more specific, please, Shanti, as it’s not clear whether by “directly” you mean actually physically speaking with MM or whether this communication happened ‘remotely’, ie in silence, at a distance.

            I’m inclined to think you’re indicating the latter mode – is that right?

  5. Lokesh says:

    Shanti says, “Anyhow, you are not a judge of who’s enlightened and who’s not.”
    Well, you seem to have taken on that job, so I leave you to it.

    He also says, “Perhaps Osho feels like the authority figure for you, a father figure who you feel the need to rebel against.”
    A bit of pop psychology from Shanti. Deep.
    I agree with Osho when he said, “The rebel does not believe in anything except his own experience. His truth is his only truth; no prophet, no messiah, no saviour, no holy scripture, no ancient tradition can give him his truth. They can talk about truth, they can make much ado about truth, but to know about truth is not to know truth.”
    Shanti, you know a lot about truth, but, as the man said, that is not to know the truth. All that New Age shite you churn out is boring and misses the target completely. Sinner, repent.

  6. dominic says:

    Even Hitler gets that she’s reich.
    When’s the satsang with Grannyji?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0FOMSA2ZrU

  7. An aphorism, if such, must be able to illuminate a controversial aspect of reality with just a few words, better than many books.
    I often find this quality in the words organized into short sentences by Osho.

    I’m not sure, however, that such an aphorism (by Osho or not) resonates, in intensity and depth, in everyone’s ears and hearts.

    In the first place one must have at heart that part of reality on which the outcome of the controversy depends.

    Yes, there are grounds for conflict on this material/spiritual plane of human reality, denying the conflict may mean that one feels above the painful consequences of the conflict or that preaching the Adavaita faith is enough to affect the outcome of the conflict.

    • Nityaprem says:

      I’m a fan of quotations. I often go onto goodreads.com to check out their collections of quotations by specific authors, before I decide to buy a book or even just for the fun of it. You never know when you will find something that resonates and opens new doors for you.

      For some people you find quite a few false quotes, things attributed to them which they never actually said. The Buddha and Albert Einstein seem to be particularly popular in this regard. So if you find a quote which seems very unlike a particular person, you might want to do a little fact-checking.

  8. Lokesh says:

    Shanti says, “Mother Meera has said that she is able to see various karmas in an individual.”

    Is that really so special? Don’t we all possess that ability to varying degrees, without the need to describe it in flowery spiritual speak? We have all met people that we instinctively sense are bad news. Or how about the ones who are obviously on a downward spiral? Aren’t these karmas in an individual? On the other side of karma’s wheel we have the people who inspire us, uplift us with their positive vibe, make life seem worthwhile living simply by being who they are. Is that not their karma and how we receive it ours?

    Karma is a complex subject. If you delve into it, the idea of karma, reincarnation enters, a concept that was first introduced by the cult of Krishna. That was when only famous personages, such as kings, queens and great warriors were believed to reincarnate, but never us mere mortals. Buddha appears on the scene and declares karma to be imponderable, perhaps, in his wisdom, because he understood karma as being something that should not be thought about over much.

    Life has a mysterious motion of give and take. As you sow, so shall ye reap, is not a quote from a farming manual. The Grateful dead sang,
    “Since it cost a lot to win
    And even more to lose
    You and me bound to spend some time
    Wondering what to choose.”

    The conclusion they draw is,
    “It goes to show you don’t ever know
    Watch each card you play
    And play it slow.”

    Yes, that sounds about right.

    • satchit says:

      A karma is a karma only if it is half-hearted; then it binds you. If it is total, then it never binds you, then there is no bondage for you. Any act lived totally is finished. (Osho)

      • Lokesh says:

        Okay, Satchit, Osho said a lot of things, but not everything he said was true, some quotes were directed at individuals and not meant to be taken as something for everyone. Taking that into account, would you please be so kind as to explain, in your own words, what is actually meant by, ‘A karma is a karma only if it is half-hearted; then it binds you.’

        • satchit says:

          In that quote he spoke that karma is a bondage.

          So how is this bondage created ?
          It is created by suppression.

          The mind suppresses feelings and energy
          into the subconscious.
          An inner split is happening, this is what he meant by half-hearted, a kind of inner conflict.

          Totality is happening in moments when this inner conflict does not exist.

          • Lokesh says:

            Satchit, I might be mistaken, but I imagine that you went back to where you copied the original Osho quote, read a bit more and used another few sentences from Osho to answer my question.

            It is fairly typical of you to speak about spiritual, inner realities as if you know what your are talking about, when you obviously don’t.

            Even if your experience is limited, it is better to stick with it, because it is your experience and not that of someone else. Otherwise, you just succeed in making yourself look stupid by using other people’s words, on subjects you do not really understand.

            “Totality is happening in moments when this inner conflict does not exist.”
            Really, man, you want to wise up a little. Speak your truth, instead of parrotting others.

            • satchit says:

              You are mistaken and yes, it is your imagination that I use Osho’s words.

              Anyway, it’s an old game of you that I am parrotting others, almost funny.

              Basically it’s not so difficult to understand what he means, just a bit of intelligence is enough.

              He is very ordinary, like you and me. Ha ha.

              • Lokesh says:

                Satchit declares, “Basically it’s not so difficult to understand what he means, just a bit of intelligence is enough.”
                That might be true. Unfortunately, you do not seem to possess that bit of intelligence.

                You begin by saying, “You are mistaken and yes, it is your imagination that I use Osho’s words.”
                But you did use Osho’s words. You even put his name under them. So, what are you talking about? Here is what you wrote: “A karma is a karma only if it is half-hearted; then it binds you. If it is total, then it never binds you, then there is no bondage for you. Any act lived totally is finished. (Osho)”

                Osho says, ‘!Any act lived totally is finished.”
                Would you say that if someone is totally angry with someone and acts on it, that will be the end of it?

                • satchit says:

                  I would say, if there is an intention behind your anger, then it is not total.

                  First you are angry, then you repent.

                  This is creating karma.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “First you are angry, then you repent.

                  This is creating karma.”

                  I question whether you’re right here, Satchit. If you 100% genuinely realise you’ve made a mistake, causing harm to others (and yourself) and are motivated to do your best to rectify it with anyone affected then isn’t that entire episode a case of not only creating but also resolving karma? Even if anyone affected holds on to ill will against you (thus creating more karma for themselves)?

                  Hence the power of JC’s “let go your enemies” (where “let go” is simpler, more practical than other similar Christian injunctions, eg “forgive your enemies”, and most definitely more realistic than the virtually impossible “love your enemies”).

                • satchit says:

                  My experience with Lokesh is that one can use him a little time to give energy to this SN here, but at the end it becomes boring as usual.

                • satchit says:

                  “let go your enemies”

                  Yes, SD.

                  My experience is they go by themselves, one need not do anything. Life is change. Sometimes there is fire, sometimes there is rain.

                  Btw, you have been editor at the ashram?

                  The ‘karma quote’ I have from his book, ‘DANG DANG DOKO DANG’.

                  As I see it they have changed there the chapter titles on osho.com in comparison to the original book.

                  Is it not strange?

                • satyadeva says:

                  I did some editing, Satchit, but on only one book, ‘The Mustard Seed’. I believe there have been plenty of instances over the years where such alterations have been made to the originally published texts, including leaving out sections for the sake of brevity.

                  In my time, Osho’s instructions were always to put out exactly what he said, but perhaps it was eventually felt that such faithfulness to the spoken word quite often needed to be modified to make the book shorter or more ‘reader-friendly’ (ie purely practical reasons, with no ‘sinister’ intent).

          • Nityaprem says:

            Satchit said, “an inner split is happening.”

            I have to say, that’s not my experience of karma. Nothing is splitting, you are just accumulating energies, some of which are dark, burdens, and some of which are luminous. And sometimes something happens which causes an energy to ripen and manifest.

            Some happenings also carry their own consequences, which can be seen as karma which ripples its way through the world.

            • satchit says:

              Your experience might be right, NP.
              But on a deeper level you are wrong. Why?

              (Koan for today)

              • Nityaprem says:

                I will leave you to formulate an answer to your koan. I’m beginning to suspect Lokesh is right about you.

                • satchit says:

                  NP, Lokesh wants people to behave according to his will.
                  This he does with me and has done with others, Arpana for example.

                  This is basically violent and if people don’t follow his ideas he becomes more violent.

                  This is how I see the story. Good luck with him!

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Is that really true, Satchit? I think there are quite a few people here who are not Lokesh puppets, like Klaus, Satyadeva and Dominic.

                  But it is true that there do seem to be a few antagonisms on this board, and those do seem to generate a lot of discussion. It’s a pity.

                  Wouldn’t it be nice if people could just live and let live?

                • dominic says:

                  It’s like ’battle rapping’ on the eight who-folds-first path, in a mismatched boxing weight class.
                  We’re tempted (even very tempted) to say things on anti-social media, with people we don’t know, that we might not say in person.

                  Like a school playground with a darwinian let-it-play-out class monitor, but at the end of the day it’s just words, it’s just ‘names’…you snowflake, Satchit (kidding) ;)

                  https://youtu.be/S7tTfY84grM

                • satchit says:

                  NP mentioned:

                  “Wouldn’t it be nice if people could just live and let live?”

                  Yes, it would be nice, a nice dream.

                  Fact is that people have different ideas what ‘living’ means for them.

                  And these different ideas are in conflict.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  There is an anecdote in Buddhist circles, where Ananda says to the Buddha, “Surely good companions are half of the spiritual life.” To which the Buddha replies, “No, Ananda, don’t say that, good companions are the whole spiritual life.”

              • Nityaprem says:

                The thing about karma is, it is an expression of one’s virtue. As long as you are virtuous, you don’t need to worry about karma.

                This is something I have never heard Osho talk about, but perhaps he should have. At heart, deep down we are loving, kind, generous people. But society teaches us, be careful, you might get hurt. Be careful, you’ll get taken advantage of. Be careful, you might not have enough for yourself.

                These things obscure our deeper nature, they are like a scab on our good nature. It is easy to choose to be very cautious, miserly. But this originates from the mind, not from our deep nature. Then when you try to get things done, you might find the mind coming up with ruthless methods. And before you know it, those turn into habits.

                It is important to stay in touch with your core nature, your inner child. You need to test what the mind suggests against that inner nature, to make sure the mind does not lead you astray, into paths of hurting people.

  9. Nityaprem says:

    Swamishanti wrote, “Buddhism may have produced a lot of enlightened people, but it is a little out-of-date.”

    I’d suggest doing some research before you make such sweeping statements, Swamishanti. Buddhism is a rich and varied tradition with many different movements within it, ranging from the faith-based Pure Land popular in China to the more psychological modern Western Buddhism. It varies quite a bit from country to country where people lay the emphasis, and it moves with the times.

    There is a lot about Buddhism which is actually timeless. The teachings on freedom from suffering, impermanence and the interdependence of all things is as valuable today as it was 2500 years ago when the Buddha first spoke them. These are deep truths about human existence and the nature of mind which you can ponder for a decade and still find they have more to teach.

    One modern teacher of the Thai Forest tradition, Ajahn Chah, said that the path to freedom of the mind was all about letting go. That you let go a bit, and then let go some more, and then let go even more, and in the end you discover that complete peace is reached by complete letting go. I have found this to be true — invariably suffering is caused by clinging too much to things.

    Currently a lot of people are discovering mindfulness, which is another Buddhist technique that is being popularised in the West. Interestingly, it is said that all the Buddha’s teachings are contained in seed form in each individual teaching, so who knows what will emerge from all these seeds in another fifty years.

    • dominic says:

      Can we say for sure there was a historical Buddha?
      Can we know what he said, as nothing was written down until centuries later, relying on oral transmission?
      Does it matter, really?

      There’s a body of work that has evolved over time into different schools, and you can pick and mix what inspires you.

      By that logic, does it matter if it’s a real or fake, “I can’t believe it’s not Buddha”, quote? if it inspires you and seems to have wisdom or Buddha nature in it, since Buddha nature is neither personal or localized.

      The West has made Buddha’s teaching into something more rational and psychological, but originally it was full of legend in which Buddha had more superpowers than any marvel superheroes, and ‘Lord Buddha’ is still venerated as a God and the perfect transhuman, in many cases.

      There’s a lot of good stuff in Buddhism, but also a lot missing.
      I like some of its discussion around ethics, which I don’t remember in Sannyas.
      Having said that, as far as I can tell, it’s been/is as corrupt as any other tradition and male- dominated.

      My experience of its meditation practices and teachings are that one is always arriving, but one never arrives.

      ‘Enlightenment’ comes with this mythology of mega striving, requiring intensive meditation practices, thousands of lifetimes and rarer than hens’ teeth.

      Vipassana, shamatha, mindfulness etc. are more about concentration, and rather dry and arduous, with some surface calm reward.

      People have been meditating like this for thousands of years, where’s all the ‘enlightenment’?
      I probably lean towards the vedanta advaita approach, which frames things positively and more directly, beginning and ending with ‘You Are That’ and is more of a relaxation into the ‘Ground of Being’ than struggling to get there on the never never.

      The word ‘Enlightenment’ comes with so much baggage and false promise now, I prefer ‘awakening’ or waking up.

      There’s a lot of talk of ‘Anatta’ (framed negatively) in Buddhism , but you’re never directed there in general on a progressive path, with some exceptions like Dzogchen.

      I prefer being an explorer than a follower while listening to my own intuition, on what to try and how to be, rather than locking into any tradition, which is the past after all, whilst the present is the real gift, which is why it’s called the present!

      Most of the eastern derivative traditions, have a dry life-negative colouring to their positive focus on the ‘beyond’, which is what made Osho so attractive, with its more integrated rainbow-coloured dancing Buddha motif.

      That model with a balance of human and transcendent, if you can get it right, seems more healthy, whole and integrated, and the way forward, but of course there’s room at the table for all.

      I’m sure if Buddha was alive today he would have to react and challenge his own teaching, as he did with Hinduism at the time, and jazz it up a little with the quotes….

      • Nityaprem says:

        There’s a lot there that I totally agree with, Dominic. On being an explorer, Osho once said “learn from the Buddha, but don’t be a Buddhist” and I think he was absolutely right. We are unique, and so there is no point in being a copy, we learn by trying certain behaviours out and seeing how they suit us, and so we slowly evolve.

        Buddhism is a deep well though; the Pali Cannon contains many thousands of sutras. If you really want to get a feel for what the Buddha said, you could spend a long time studying. Osho would take one sutra or even a fragment, and dedicate a whole discourse to it, but that way you don’t see much.

        It is so that Buddhism isn’t always very juicy, the whole emphasis on stilling the mind builds up a certain tendency towards flattening the mind’s excesses. It can be good for a while. When it gets too much for me I just look for a time at other spiritual teachers like Ramana, Nisargadatta and Papaji, or even Ram Dass.

        I certainly wouldn’t say to people, become buddhist. But since Osho opened so many doors for us, we can see what resonates and take a deep dive into that material, spend years trying on that set of robes and seeing what remains with us.

        When you consider what should be your final goal, I think Freedom as Papaji said is not a bad call. I believe you would automatically find yourself moving towards Awakening, without making a big deal of the event.

    • Nityaprem says:

      So you think that celebration does not cause disappointment in that which is not celebrated? It is much the same as worship, that which is celebrated is placed higher.

      I would also say that there are certain things which should be let go of. Malice, ill-will, jealousy, there are quite a few negative feelings which you don’t want to fully accept and act upon. Luckily you don’t have to.

      There is a story from the American Indians, about a boy who was suffering with impulses of anger. His grandfather told him that in the heart of every man there fight two wolves, one embodying kindness, the other anger. The boy asked which of these two wolves wins. The older man said, whichever one you feed.

      You can choose what you feed in your heart, with a little awareness. Most negative emotions only last about 30 seconds if you don’t get carried away in their streams of thought. By not getting caught up in the thoughts that feed your negative emotions, you can free yourself, and reach a place of equanimity and goodwill.

      Buddhism teaches a certain amount of inner care, a tending of the garden of the heart. It’s worth having a close look at it, it can help.

      • swamishanti says:

        Clearly Buddhism is what you are into and works for you, but, it is not of any interest for me as a spiritual path.

        I have my own meditative practice which is very simple but effective.
        Often I find simple is best.

      • satchit says:

        Seems many sannyasins take refuge in Buddhism.

        I wonder why?
        Maybe it’s a kind of safe place. Not so chaotic as Sannyas.

        • swamishanti says:

          Satchit, I haven’t noticed much interest in Buddhism from sannyasins. Perhaps you are meaning some local to you in Deutschland. What the SS (Swami Shanti) has been aware of is a certain number of young people are taking sannyas every year, the movement as such is growing, but I don’t see any particular interest in Buddhism as such.

          There is a commune in Nepal where Osho and Buddha are worshipped side by side, and also some intermingling between local Tibetan Buddhists and sannyasins.

        • Nityaprem says:

          It’s funny but actually nearly all sannyasins who were at the Ranch are also officially Buddhists… the chanting of the gauchamis as was done there is actually the same as the ceremony of taking refuge that is used in many Buddhist traditions.

          Budham sharanam gauchami — I go to the Buddha for refuge
          Dhamam sharanam gauchami — I go to the Dhamma for refuge
          Sangham sharanam gauchami — I go to the Sangha for refuge

          You recite these words, and it’s taken as your intention to be a buddhist. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refuge_in_Buddhism.

          Buddhism is a fast-growing religion in the West, accounting for 1-3% of the population of most nations (which means there are a lot more Western buddhists then there ever were sannyasins).

          • satchit says:

            “nearly all sannyasins who were at the Ranch are also officially Buddhists”

            So what are they now, NP? No more Sannyasins, but Buddhists? Or both, Sannyasins and Buddhists?

            Seems there is a lot of confusion going on….

            • swamishanti says:

              They definitely were not officially Buddhist.
              Osho just liked that chant.

              “Buddham Saranam Gachami, to the Lord of the Full Moon”:

              https://youtu.be/DhS3gQ0_bu4

            • Nityaprem says:

              They are whatever they choose to be…they’re only labels, whatever ‘ism’ you choose to stick on your forehead is your affair. Buddhist, sannyasin, hindu with a pinch of ayahuascero, the world is your oyster.

              But I did find it interesting that of all the chants Osho could have chosen, the one he did pick was the one that signals one’s intent to follow the Buddha. You have to wonder what else he snuck in by the back door.

              • dominic says:

                The ‘gaccamis’ didn’t hang around for long and we’re part of the drift towards creating a religion, which ended in book burnings.

                My impression is that people go through the motions, like gaccamis, or wearing robes, or being a monk, to be part of a club, to belong, it’s not necessarily authentic, just playing a role.

                Buddha founded a monastic order that needed strict rules and a lot of glue to hold it together.
                Also, in former times being part of a group had great survival value and we (especially westerners) live much more fluid and atomised lives today.

                The idea of a sangha is really an illusion and as impermanent as everything else. Solitude is our natural state. We are really alone (but not lonely, hopefully) on the journey to being all one (sounds good anyway!).

                The only Buddha to take refuge in is Mr Nobody, the one in the mirror.

                Similarly, the dhamma is the eternal now and what life brings you, it doesn’t come packaged in a box with a manual.

                At the end of the day, Buddhist scriptures, Osho talks, advaita waffle, are gossips and distractions that can also get in the way, once you’ve grasped the fundamentals. To lean on any of it, beyond your own experience, is to live outside of yourself.

                The idea of a ‘perfect enlightened one’ is a myth. ‘Buddhas’ don’t transcend their humanity and conditioning, however charming, charismatic or wise they might appear. That is the golden halo effect. Some of their character flaws are benign or only harm themselves, like smoking yourself silly to throat cancer, or taking drugs and hippie crack, others are problematic and are going to affect others who have placed a lot of trust in them.

                I once spent 6 weeks at an Ajahn Chah western monastery as a helper, and appreciated the uber peaceful atmosphere and people. I remember how monks behave (they have many rules), they are quiet, humble and their association is restricted. I have also met one or two monks later after disrobing, it’s as if being a monk had been an acting class, now that their personalities were back!

                Joining a group, a cult, a religion, is a double-edged sword, there are the potential benefits of an expanded awareness but also the dangers of becoming an unthinking robot or ‘true believer’.

                The fastest growing religion today, soon to be the largest, is the most regressive one. Christianity spread through Roman Empire sponsorship, Buddhism spread through Ashoka’s sponsorship, which has now largely disappeared from India. They would have remained minority sects without that. The opium of the people serving political ends as much as spiritual ones.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Q. What to do when you die? Stay together and run the risk that the movement will turn into a stale sort of religion, or dissolve and be open for the call of another living master?

                  A. “And I don’t care a bit what you will be doing when I am gone. If you cannot do anything while I am here, what can be hoped about you? If you go on missing me while I am alive, naturally you will go on missing me when I am dead. It will not make much difference to you.

                  And it will not make much difference to others who are not missing me right now. They will never miss me. Even when I am gone I will be there in their heart, as alive as ever. Once you are really in contact with a living Master, that living Master becomes your living Master forever. Then there is no need.”

                  “It depends on you whether my religion will remain alive or not when I am gone. It depends on you. To a few it will be dead… to them it is dead now. To a few it will remain alive…to them it is alive now and it will be alive forever. So each one has to decide for himself. If when I am gone you feel that I am there to help you, I will be there to help you. If you feel I am no longer there to help you, naturally you have to choose another Master.”

                  Osho: ‘Sufis: People of the Path’, vol. 1

                  https://www.oshoteachings.com/osho-it-depends-on-you-whether-my-religion-will-remain-alive-or-not/

                • Lokesh says:

                  Shanti says Osho says, “It depends on you whether my religion will remain alive or not when I am gone.”

                  On another occasion, Osho says, “I call a man a sannyasin who does not have a religion, who does not belong to any religion.”

                  Shanti, could you please explain this obvious contradiction?

                • swamishanti says:

                  Yes, Lokesh, I believe Osho called it “religionless religion.”

                • Lokesh says:

                  Wow! Deep. Must be amazing having the answer to everything…or maybe it’s just the answerless answer for dummies.

                • swamishanti says:

                  “There are things which can be understood by learning — they are outside things, objective things. That is the difference between science and religion. Science needs no subjective experience. You can remain outside and watch; it is an objective approach towards truth.

                  Religion is a subjective approach. You have to go in, withinwards; it is introspective. You have to dive deep within your own being. Only then can you know. Only from your own centre will you be able to understand what the way is, what the dhamma is — or call it what God is — but you will have to participate.

                  You can know God only by becoming a god, there is no other way. You can know love only by becoming a lover. And if you think that it is very risky without knowing — and going into love IS risky — then you will remain without love, you will remain a desert.

                  Yes, life is risk, and one should be courageous enough to take risks. One should not always be calculating. If you go on just calculating your whole life, you will miss all. Take risks, be courageous.

                  There is only one way to live and that is to live dangerously. And this is the danger — that one has to move without knowing, one has to move in the unknown. Hence, trust is needed.“ (Osho)

                  “The world needs one universal religiousness. My sannyasins don’t belong to any religion at all, they simply belong to a new phenomenon – a religionless religiousness. The essential of religion, of all the religions, will be saved, but the peripheral will have to be dropped, the nonessential will have to be simply burned.” (Osho)

                • Anatomy of a thought, weak, almost dead. (I have no human sympathy fpr someone who expresses the existential approach expressed through the alias “dominic-frank-assholes”, not making any positive-ideal investment in human nature gives him/them the feeling of invincibility of someone who doesn’t trust anyone will never be betrayed. But I give credit to dominic’s positions only as representative of pessimistic thinking in matters of humanity. Different speech for Lokesh who at least has the courage, or lack of shame, to expose his malicious and sometimes malevolent ideas about Osho, the Sangha and sannyasins, specially those who are not hardened in their egos like him, eg unforgivable his recent attack on Arpana and his courage to show his vulnerability in an attempt to try to share the incommunicable in words and without masks.

                  The Dominican begins with: “The “gaccamis” didn’t stay around long and we are part of the drift towards the creation of a religion, which ended with the burning of books.” It makes me wonder if a religion without books is possible and if “drifting” is the creation of a religion in itself (not distinguishing between good and bad religion). Therefore, he who is one of the most diligent burners of Osho books, and of sannyasins who insist on sharing some passages here, considers all religions wrong/harmful/useless.

                  In short, our hero is saying that if “the drift towards the creation of a religion” has ended it is thanks to work like his.

                  Here, below, he shows off his notions collected between a beer and a joint between the German Bakery in Pune and a kiosk bar in Anjuna: “Buddha founded a monastic order that needed strict rules and a lot of glue to hold it together.

                  Also, in former times, being part of a group had great survival value and we (especially westerners) live much more fluid and atomized lives today”. It follows that the strongest bond that unites communities is not survival and that in the case of Buddha it took “a lot of glue to hold them together”, I wonder what his fertilized mind is referring to, maybe he must have Ian Dury in his head who can’t stop humming that refrain to him…

                  Let’s pass over the meaning that putting “strict rules” in a positive relationship with “lot of glue” could have…are there strict rules that don’t glue? Or a lot of glue that doesn’t increase the power to hold things together?

                  What about “more fluid and atomised lives”? It would seem that it should mean that today we have fewer reasons, such as survival, to keep us together as a community…a step forward then in being able to be fluid; didn’t he write “free”, i.e. to change gender or sex like changing aliases? “Free” also from the dominant transhumanist fashion today?

                  What about the other element that our hero positively evaluates, as opposed to man’s tendency to form himself in community: “atomised”? Is this also an element of emancipation in contrast to communities, societies or Sanghas? It seems to me that the global average IQ is collapsing dramatically, while we all enjoy dominating the technologies that do the ‘hard work’ (including Hardcore) for us in relationships. I believe that, apart from a few cases, of those who have celebrated community life in the Master’s vision, few would prefer the atomized modality that makes us write here to the possibility of meeting in person.

                  Now comes the fun part: dominic is not just a name, there is a beating heart: “The idea of a sangha is really an illusion and as impermanent as everything else. Solitude is our natural state. We are really alone (but not lonely, hopefully) on the journey to being all one (sounds good anyway!)”.

                  Note the nonchalance of the use of the pronoun “all”; when you say that “everything is illusion and impermanent”, indeed domenic has to resort to the adverb “really” in order to challenge the laws of self-reference and continue to blather about something that makes sense and is not an illusion or something impermanent. Here also emerges the rhetorical ability learned from Osho to play with the nuances of the words “solitude, lonely, alone”, skills that when there was a Sangha could make the difference between a lonely night and one in good company…but today? Who’s running for a midnight blow job to atomized but fluid Dominic?

                  Now the comic part: “The only Buddha to take refuge in is Mr Nobody, the one in the mirror”. In all this flash of impermanent and illusory lights dominic looks for a refuge and finds it, he knows how to recognize it, evidently the long-term memory is not so predisposed to impermanence, even though he calls him Buddha and Mr. Nobody I think he is talking about his own face.

                  Then the tone changes, he becomes hieratic, after all the wisdom expressed he thinks he has accumulated sufficient credit, the warning arrives: “Similarly, the dhamma…etc”.

                  MOD:
                  Veet F, please be informed that Dominic and Frank are definitely not the same person!

                • dominic says:

                  For Buddha’s sake, Veet, I am not the bodacious Frank or the satirical, side-splitting Yogi, merely the cheeky chappie you see here. Though I am flattered you think it so, it calls into question your competency in the forensics of philological fingerprints. Equally flattering is your attention to my posts, which I freely admit are half-baked and best forgotten.

                  Your diatribes, even on Buddhists practising ahimsa, suggests your location is not Purgatorio, as I formerly thought, but Inferno, the 5th circle to be precise, where you yield to bestial appetites, coarse language, and snarling bitterness against your fellow men, who in their compassion engage with you, even at risk to their own mental health.

                  If only you might tone down the scatological language, your valuable incites and anal-ysis might remain for the benefit of humanity.

                  You must have a lot of time to spend on the dark web at demon internet services. It’s amazing the reach of Wi-Fi these days.

                  To be cursed with one monkey mind is bad enough, but a whole troop of them talking gibberish at the same time must boggle the mind.

                  Instead of having your posts deleted, I might suggest just adding a brief proviso at the top, ‘Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here’.

                • Klaus, I want to follow your advice and try to say something in English style to an entity, which in its inconclusiveness resembles another, only a little less intellectually efficient, but could be the same after 4 vaccines, which wants to interact with calling me a monkey, violent, or worse, a fascist, condemning me to hell.

                  Also assuming, as you did too, that between the two of us I am the reactive one and he is the proactive one.

                  Not happy, he accompanied the comment with a drawing of an exploding head, I guess it’s not his, in his intentions.

                  Now you suffer if I use dirty talk, and although it could be an algorithm with no life around it, but if it existed what would you call the mother of one like that?

                • Veet Francesco,

                  Well, Sannyas in my experience has also been and probably still is about ‘survival of the fittest’.

                  I am certainly not the fittest and my intellectual efficiency is tending towards being ‘totally useless in daily life’.

                  Making it into a competition imv reduces one’s accessibility.
                  Interpretations also seem to address only one (rather small) part of someone or something.

                  Drew the attached picture at a time when I felt overwhelmed by too many things going on outside and inside.

                  ‘My mission is secret: even I myself don’t know what I am up to.’
                  Well, not all of the time. Luckily.

                • Klaus, thank you for your words and drawings that have the power to lead me to the heart, giving me respite from the battles that Osho’s spiritual heirs would be called to fight these days, including you, in a non-violent way, to defend the door of gold which is the human heart.

                  Words can be stones, it’s true, but usually not for those whose hearts hide it, like their spiritual names.

                  Pacifism is not non-violence, its claim to equate everything, whereby verbal passion itself is judged violent, seems to me part of the problem in conflict.

                  But not only here, it’s a global problem,

                  Watch the new Ukrainian heroes of the Azov battalion, with the national hero Bandera and the global one Zelensky, the new villain of the moment, Putin, after Gaddafi, Saddam, Assad etc. in this mental conformity dictated by the prevailing nihilism (imv F. Nietzsche has proposed a method for a nascent paradigm shift and not a philosophy), to refute this or other top-down narratives is an almost impossible undertaking.

                  Very disappointing that the generation that in Pune redeemed itself from trap of conformism of fashions today they do not keep memory of the method for that rebirth, or they use it only here.

                  I dedicate this ‘Huge Prayer’ by Faber to you
                  https://lyricstranslate.com/it/smisurata-preghiera-huge-prayer.html

                • @Everybody
                  I detected a sensational translation error in the text of the song ‘Smisurata Prayer’ by Fabrizio De Andrè (Faber) which I dedicated to Sw. Anand Prasanto (Klaus).

                  In the text Faber quoted the poet Álvaro Mutis with the words “To deliver a drop of splendour to death” adding “Of humanity of truth” and not as written in translation “Of inhumanity” which evidently would not make sense in the context of the song. Also the possessive determiner is wrong. Damn…

                  “…for those travelling towards obstinate and contrary direction
                  with (his)THEIR special brand of special despair
                  and rejected moves between the vomit of the last steps
                  to bring to death a drop of splendour
                  of (in)HUMANITY of truth”.

                • Thanks for the honour, Veet Francesco!

                  I will try to understand more of the lyrics, if only in my sense of
                  understanding…possible.

                • Actually, the poem seems like a huge complaint about everything
                  that Faber sees as wrong in life.

                  But his singing is fair.

                • AP, the song is about a huge prayer, not a small one.
                  Not always someone prays to thank God because things are going well.

                  This one describes the injustice of wars watched from the top of the towers by a majority distracted from their own business, and the “stubborn and contrary” path of those who choose to stand amidst the vomit of the outcasts, only that compassionate choice seems to redeem the human existence, with a drop of splendour.

                  The prayer ends with a blasphemy: the Lord must move his ass to balance things, out of duty!

                • I am not ignorant of these things – wars and corruption and such – and other mis-happenings, Veet Francesco.

                  And I do not have visions of how to improve things ‘for mankind’ on a large scale.

                • “And I do not have visions of how to improve things ‘for mankind’ on a large scale.”

                  Prasanto, I hope you’re not complaining to the poet (poetry) that he might have one.

                • No, I am not complaining.

                  Rather I am wishing the poet well and that his vision/s will end his own and all sufferings.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Klaus says, “Well, Sannyas in my experience has also been and probably still is about ‘survival of the fittest’.”

                  That sounds a bit Darwinian to me. I recall one time Osho telling me that people who are surviving are living in a poor state. Sannyas, as in life, is, was, about a lot more than surviving…unless you happen to be living in Ukraine or some other god-forsaken place.

                • Lokesh,

                  Yes, it is certainly an exaggerated statement.

                  The first people connecting to Osho in person were lucky, indeed.
                  It was a natural connection.

                  Later on, imo it changed due to the increased numbers.
                  For example ‘Hollywood crew’ or whatever this was named.

                  I agree, only ‘surviving’ is a reduced state as compared to ‘blossoming’ in a given environment.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Quite so, Klaus.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Actually, in Pune Two Osho was later to say, about the Sannyas journey, that “many people came, and left, and it was always good, because it made space for better people.” (Osho: ‘The Invitation’).

                  The ‘Hollywood Gang’ that turned up mainly around 1984 as you mentioned, included people who grew spiritually as well as physically close to Osho, Hasya, and another Ma Prem Kaveesha, who was said by some to have become enlightened, who ended up at Osho Sedona. In the early nineties, several of the ‘Hollywood Gang’ left the Inner Circle and went back to the US, apparently after arguing with some of Jayesh and Amrito’s ideas for the running of the place.

                • swamishanti says:

                  @Klaus

                  Ma Prem Kaveesha was one of the ‘Hollywood Gang’, who used to run the mystery school in Poona Two, who later left the Inner Circle and set up a mystery school at Osho Sedona, and was said to be one of those sannyasins close to Osho who had become enlightened.

                  Osho spoke of her connection to him in this talk from Poona Two:

                  “There are people who have lived with me for years. In fact, the more they have lived with me, the more they have forgotten me completely; they have started taking me for granted. They will wake up only when I disappear from this physical body. Then they will feel a sudden shock – twenty years we have been together, what happened?

                  So it can happen in the first moment – it can happen any time. The only requirement is a clear perception. And Kaveesha, you have a very clear perception and a very loving heart. And from the very first moment you have not hesitated at all in opening all your doors, all your windows; you have been available to me.

                  I remember the first day I looked into your eyes, and I knew that somebody is there who is ready to disappear. If you disappear, you will suddenly realize that I disappeared long ago. So there is no I and there is no thou.

                  Kaveesha was born in a Jewish family, and she must be aware of one of the great Jewish thinkers of this century, Martin Buber. His most famous book, for which he received the Nobel Prize, is ‘I And Thou’. His whole philosophy is that people need a deep dialogue between I and thou.

                  He has written very logically and very rationally – he was one of the geniuses of this century – but his whole philosophy is wrong. He thinks the dialogue happens between I and thou. And I say unto you, the dialogue happens only when there is no I and no thou.

                  It is a very strange dialogue, of course, because we are accustomed only to a dialogue between two persons; and I am saying that when two persons disappear into one, only then there is dialogue, a heart-to-heart communion.

                  Martin Buber is dead; otherwise I would have traveled to Israel – he was very old – just to tell him, “There is still time for you; drop this idea of I and thou. Let there remain only the dialogue.”

                  Yes, Kaveesha, this is the truth. Neither yours nor mine; just the truth. You are saying, “Beloved Osho, I am not separate from you. There is no you – there is no me. This feels so awesome to say – even more awesome to live.”

                  It is such a great mystery to live that it is natural it will look very awesome – it is so overwhelming. But slowly, slowly, everything else becomes unreal and false before this simple reality – that there is no I and there is no thou.

                  It has happened between me and you, and soon you will see that it is happening between you and everyone else. This is only the beginning. It will be complete only when there is no I and no thou anywhere, when you are merged and melted into the ocean of the whole.

                  You have entered the door of the temple, and now there is no way of turning back. Just accept it as a gift of the divine in total humbleness and simplicity of the heart; otherwise it can become a heavy burden. The experience is too big, and we are so small.

                  It is almost as if the ocean has dropped into the dewdrop – just think of the poor dewdrop! When the dewdrop falls into the ocean, it is simpler; but once in a while the ocean also drops into the dewdrop – then it is tremendously awesome and overwhelming. But to whomsoever it happens, he is blessed, immensely blessed.

                  Just take it with deep relaxation, and with a humble heart, and soon it will become your natural way of life. Looking at the trees, or at the stars, you will find the same dialogue.”

                  -Osho From ‘The Razor’s Edge’, Discourse #3 1987:
                  https://o-meditation.com/category/osho/osho-sannyasins/prem-kaveesha/

                • Swamishanti said:
                  12 January, 2023 at 7:48 pm

                  That is beautiful, indeed.

                  And that it carried over into a sustainable daily life without the ashram and Master ‘in the back’ is imo a perfectly admirable example of the good work.

                  Eurythmics and Aretha Franklin:
                  ‘Sisters Are Doin’ It For Themselves’
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drGx7JkFSp4

                  Cheers!

                • No, Klaus, you’re the one who generalizes, also because we weren’t discussing the Oregon facts.

                  We talked about burning books, the power of words, making people laugh or cry, how we could discuss everything in a non-violent way.

                  Btw, declaring you would never buy a gun doesn’t make you non-violent, just like buying an Osho book isn’t a sufficient explanation to call an idiot.

                  Project onto others the violence that you are unable to express but if you decide to defend a conflicting party do it without generalizing, Osho didn’t only have friends in the USA as well as in Germany or Ukraine Hitler doesn’t only have enemies.

                  This forum is just one of the forms in which the community life born around Osho is expressed, possibly free from his enemies.

                  The fact that you talk to me is thanks to Osho, if there isn’t a physical place to do it doesn’t mean that others don’t continue to do it in person, as happens after 2500 years for the Sangha of Gautama…I don’t understand this hurry iconoclast in the case of Osho’s one.

                  But there are also ambiguous figures of didactic provocateurs, former sannyasins who come here to preach that there is much more to come after Osho, even if they then give their best speaking of the past.

                  Then there are rare cases of “sannyasin in brackets”, not to generalize, you.

                  Solipisism wouldn’t save you from WW3, if to buy a gun could prevent it imv only a pacifist fanatic without existential roots would remain inert.

                • VF,

                  I appreciate your intricate thoughts and your effort to get to the details.

                  There is imo no need to defend your views; they are your views you are entitled to. As I am entitled to mine (even if these are stoooopid. Ha).

                  Hardhitting antagonism imv is intended to grind down ignorance. Therefore, imo one has to investigate one’s reactions: why the (strong), who is reacting, what is the feeling offended, where and when can there be let-go?

                  Quite often I went like:
                  “Uhhhhhh, the f__k this is a strong hit. Why does it pinch me so?”
                  Then again, as I am (party professionally) a language person (you too??) I heartily enjoy(ed) a lot of the wordings here: Frank, Loke, Dominic, yours…anyone’s. It is how we express ourselves in writing. So what?

                  Arpana once has left this link to ‘Cruel to be Kind’ – Nick Lowe
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vo4lNb0w48
                  after some intense exchanges here. (However, they all were without viciousness as far as I could observe..).

                  Keep up the spirits. And enjoy the breaks.

                • Here is a later take of “Cruel to be Kind’ live at Daryl’s House including an older Nick Lowe:
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg9fNKBp8eA

                  I love it. Imv, they are all masters of their trade.

                • ‘LFDH’ – ‘Life From Daryl’s House’ is a wonderful series with so many famous names. Check it, if you feel like.

                • Klaus, I’m not the stickler if every now and then I point out to some troll who writes in this forum that to attract other people’s attention here is needed to have at least some original argument.

                  If, in addition to having no arguments, someone indulges in gratuitous judgments with the attitude of bullies, it seems to me right to give some feedback that reinforces their principle of reality, starting from their aporias and contradictions.

                  Could I ever tell a rose that smells like a rose that it’s an asshole? Well, since you wouldn’t judge me reactive that I call a “rose” a “rose” then it should also apply when I call dominic an asshole, who being a troll can only be pleased and laugh at all the shit he manages to pull out of my guts.

                  When the Moderator with a few moves wants to restore the symmetry between those who provoke without putting their heart and face into what they write and who, instead, putting their heart and face into it, has the responsibility to expose themselves, shit included, you will see that these diatribes about “who has the longer penis?” will finish.

                  But from what I smell, this site has guidelines already traced, for years, by people who have left their body; now the intellectual legacy remained in a few hands and I don’t think it’s easy to depart from a management that cannot but take into account the affective value that the shape of this virtual space returns.

                  Another asymmetry, and another reason for preserving the form and content of the forum, are the non-virtual relationships (friendships, direct or indirect acquaintances) that I imagine exist among the older SN visitors, from which those who are cut off have a further disadvantage in communication that could sometimes result in frustration.

                  I have found that the game of picking out the village idiot from time to time and bringing him to a boil point, as well as causing amusement in some of the old folks, it encourages paternalism and arrogance, in a vicious circle where people like Lokesh or Frank are still here to play their role while all the other sannyasins disappear after a while without saying goodbye.

                  I don’t have time and money for tv series, but if you can watch the movie The Dinner Game’.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Shanti says, “I will be having a break from the site for a few days.”

                  What’s the hold-up?

                • swamishanti says:

                  Yes, I will, thanks, Lokesh. We will meet again.

                • Lokesh says:

                  Yes, you’ve already mentioned that you are clairvoyant.

    • swamishanti says:

      Hari Krishmas and welcome back to failedsannyasnews.

      I remember many years ago, my older son’s friend introduced him to one of the early versions of the ‘Grand Theft Auto’ game which involves car jacking, crime and running people over, being chased by the police, and some good music. Back then, it was a simple 2D top down view. I had a go and one of the bits I enjoyed was driving the car over a group of Hari Krishnas, who were viewed as a moving circling line of orange dots, chanting and moving through the streets, you got points for running over the full line.

      Later versions of the game were in 3D and I decided too violent for my younger son, who I had to make sure wasn’t playing it.

      Buddhism has produced a lot of enlightened people.
      I particularly like Bodhidharma and his kung fu style and some of the Zen stories.
      I feel Osho was particularly close to the fierce Buddha style of Bodhidharma. He also loved Zen, as he felt it was the essence of Buddha without a lot of the crap.

      In fact, Osho was likely the ‘Maitreya Buddha’ that Gautama Buddha predicted would return in 25 centuries.

      And that doesn’t mean that Osho was the literal reincarnation of the Buddha. Osho was his own man. But Buddha’s prediction of the future Buddha, Maitreya, ‘the Friend’, may have indeed been Osho.

      Like Buddha, Osho was also able to see into the future, well beyond his physical death, and was able to see that his popularity would grow after he left the body. He was able to see that his secretary Neelam would arrive ‘home’ and asked her to write a book about her life, which he told her he would help her with (which has recently been released – I have yet to read it): ‘Seeing, Watching, Living with the Master and Being at Home: A Book for Seekers on the Path’:

      https://www.oshonisarga.com/maneelam

      The problem with Buddhism as I see it is that apart from the mystical element, the essence, it has developed a dogma which produces narrow minds and fanatics, just like the other organised religions.

      Osho took a new step forward with his conception of the ‘New Man’, which is a spirituality which has no dogma.

      One of the gifts was that he also able to create more of a playful, celebrative spirituality. Some would even go so far to describe him as the godfather of the Goa-trance scene. Here: ‘Baraka’ by Prana, Goa Trance track with samples of Osho:

      https://youtu.be/EPexHu_zjrM

      “That’s my whole teaching, celebration; not worship but celebration. When you worship, you start making a hierarchy; the lower and the higher. When you worship you put something on top of other things. When you worship, something becomes sacred and something becomes profane. When you worship you divide, you split existence. Then something is praised but in the wake of it, something is condemned too. So worship is not religious.

      The god of the worshipper is not the true god, because to exist it needs a devil. Without a devil the god will not be possible. The more you praise the god, the more you have to condemn the devil. Then the world is torn apart into two enemy forces, and when you divide the world, you are also divided in it, you become split and schizophrenic. A part of you becomes evil and a part of you becomes holy, and then there is constant conflict, repression, and all joy is lost. A worshipper is basically ill-at-ease; he is dis-eased.

      Celebration is a totally different dimension. When you celebrate, you celebrate all, you don’t divide. For a celebrator, prayer is as beautiful as drinking tea. The tea is not profane and prayer is not separate; all is one. The church, the temple, the mosque and the pub are all one. Making love to a woman or a man or praying to a god is the same.

      Celebration does not divide. It unites, it brings things together; it creates a togetherness in the world. The duality disappears and there is unity, and with unity there is joy because there cannot be any conflict. There is no struggle, nothing has to be overcome. All is overcome in the celebration itself. The worshipper has a goal; he has to attain it. The celebrator has no goal; he has attained it already. Worship is always future-oriented; celebration is present-oriented. You celebrate this moment, you worship some other moment….

      That’s what Sannyas is all about: it is a celebration of God, not a worship. And celebrate in your own way, because celebration cannot have any form. Worship becomes petrified into forms; celebration remains alive. And all is divine; there is nothing profane.”

      Osho: ‘The Sun Behind the Sun Behind the Sun’

  10. dominic says:

    I hear that wishing people “Merry Xmas” and calling everyone “guys” is offensive now.

    So Merry Xmas, guys, see you on the naughty list!

  11. I like to look at what different paths have in common.

    To me, ‘Sannyas’ and ‘learning how to meditate’ (Buddhist, or Advaita or any other method) have in common that the intent of trying to find out how to be with whatever is. Or to be able to just be.

    So, meditators can learn from Sannyas the joy of action and being in the world. And Sannyas (maybe, maybe) can learn to look at things in aloneness and silence over extended periods of time.

    As Dominic put it: “bringing together the human and the transcendent”.
    That one resonated with me quite strongly.

    New habits and/or bypassing escapes can be created everywhere too. Imv.
    Group dynamics as a ‘separate kind’ of elite or a ‘lifestyle’ seem especially tricky.

    Developing wisdom is finding out for oneself.
    Appreciating the insights and forward steps of others at the same time.
    Antagonism can be quite helpful for one’s own insights too.

    No need to put oneself apart, still.

    • Nityaprem says:

      I’m not so interested in comparing different paths, that seems an intellectual exercise. It’s not going to tell you what is good for you at a given moment.

      Instead, my method is more to do with unfolding the inner self. Listen to a teacher, feel what resonates and apply that, and see where it takes you. As Bruce Lee said, “adopt what works, discard what doesn’t, and add what is uniquely your own.”

      Pulling yourself apart is not a good way to proceed, but gently investigating what’s there, unfolding it with the techniques we learn from gifted teachers.

      • With “looking” I meant practising and walking the talk.

        To me, the paths chosen felt very similar in their effects after a period of time.

        Intellectualising came afterwards, i.e. finding the experiences put into words. As long as it is helpful.

        Then it is not pre-judice.

        Clearly “What’s right for me, might not be right for you.”
        (Lynnyrd Skynyrd)

  12. Lokesh says:

    Shanti claims, “Like Buddha, Osho was also able to see into the future.”

    This is how myth-building develops.

    Osho had a bash at predicting future events and it was way off the mark. Apparently, he did this due to the influence of a PR agent, who told him that predicting future catastrophes would attract many followers. Whether that is true or not is beside the point. The point is that Osho, during this time, predicted that AIDS would kill hundreds of millions of people, California would fall into the sea and Mount Fuji would be host to a massive eruption. Of course, none of these things actually happened.

    Osho did not foresee himself being poisoned in the USA, as he claimed he was, or that his nitrous oxide inhalations would cause neurological damage, because this scientific fact was not known during this time. I could go on, but I have made my point. Osho did not have 20/20 vision as far as the future was concerned.

    I saw U2 before they became famous and I knew they would become a massive success. This does not mean I am clairvoyant, it was obvious.

    Shanti goes on to say, “Osho took a new step forward with his conception of the ‘New Man’, which is a spirituality which has no dogma.”
    This was not Osho’s concept but rather George Gurdjieff’s. Osho loved Mr G. and his ideas, in particular the idea of a ‘New Man’. Rarely did Osho give credit for the source of many of his concepts, which were often not original but plagiarized from others who’d done the groundwork.

    Shanti comes away with the following piece of hype: “In fact, Osho was likely the ‘Maitreya Buddha’ that Gautama Buddha predicted would return in 25 centuries.”
    In fact? There is nothing factual about this. It is also not true. Maitreya Buddha loves Rolls Royces, and ridiculously expensive watches, asking his female disciples to perform sexual favours for him and in his spare time gets high on a rubbish drug while watching reruns of his favourite movie, ‘Patton’.

    That does not sound at all like the kind of guy Gautam Buddha predicted would arrive on the spiritual scene 2,500 years after dying from food poisoning. Did the Buddha foresee that happening and use it as a device for his followers’ awakening?

    One might well ask why the need exists for followers of spiritual leaders to employ hyperbole to make them more special than they already are. The answer is probably that by making their guru extra special with superpowers they grant themselves the accolade of being very special themselves, which certainly rings true in Shanti’s case.

    My advice is don’t believe the hype. Osho claimed he was an ordinary man. And therein lies one of the greatest lessons he had to teach. You do not need to be special to be cool. Accept your ordinariness and it will bring you home. Leave being special to the delusional ones.

    • satchit says:

      Fact is, Lokesh, everybody is ordinary.
      For being special, comparison is needed.

      Osho was playing with the truth, that’s all.

    • swamishanti says:

      Lokesh wrote:

      “Like Buddha, Osho was also able to see into the future.”
      This is how myth-building develops.”

      Actually it is not myth building but rather a statement based on people’s experiences of the man and how it was demonstrated he was able to predict future events.

      “Osho had a bash at predicting future events and it was way off the mark. Apparently, he did this due to the influence of a PR agent, who told him that predicting future catastrophes would attract many followers. Whether that is true or not is beside the point.”

      I’ve heard this line from you again and again over the years on this little site and it sounds like bullshit to me.

      “The point is that Osho, during this time, predicted that AIDS would kill hundreds of millions of people, California would fall into the sea and Mount Fuji would be host to a massive eruption. Of course, none of these things actually happened.”

      It isn’t clear exactly when Osho was predicting these events to occur. Other masters, such as Haidakan Babbaji, also predicted , in the seventies and the eighties, that various destructive calamities would happen some time in the late 20th century, a nuclear war even, and then later said that that nuclear apocalypse had been avoided. Who knows if some events were indeed avoided?

      This doesn’t mean that everything Haidakan Babaji said was a lie or that he was pretending. The fact remans is that like Osho he was a powerful enlightened being.

      “Osho did not foresee himself being poisoned in the USA, as he claimed he was, or that his nitrous oxide inhalations would cause neurological damage, because this scientific fact was not known during this time.”

      No-one is able to foresee the whole future. Only certain things are revealed. Osho once commented at the Ranch on Gurdjieff, that he was caught escaping from the Russian revolution, and that perhaps fate would play a similar game with him. There are many things he was able to see clearly.

      You like to believe that Osho was killed by his nitrous oxide revelations, but this is not at all a proven fact.

      And Osho had very powerful enemies, from the most powerful nation on earth, and they had already tried to assassinate him at the Ranch.

      It is highly likely that they may have tried again when he was in their custody given the chance, as they definitely considered him a threat, and he was held in extremely murky circumstances. Or later.

      As one of Osho’s enlightened disciples Swami Yog Chinmaya once said in this century, “the forces that destroyed the Rajneeshpuram commune still exist in the world.”

      And he was right.

      “I could go on, but I have made my point. Osho did not have 20/20 vision as far as the future was concerned.”

      No, no one does. So what? But he still predicted many things that came to pass and that is well known by his close disciples.

      “Shanti goes on to say, “Osho took a new step forward with his conception of the ‘New Man’, which is a spirituality which has no dogma.”
This was not Osho’s concept but rather George Gurdjieff’s.

      Osho loved Mr G. and his ideas, in particular the idea of a ‘New Man’. Rarely did Osho give credit for the source of many of his concepts, which were often not original but plagiarized from others who’d done the groundwork.”

      No, this is bullshit. Osho was inspired by many people and his vision of the New Man, which would make exhaustive reading if you were to read all mentions of it in all the books, is not the same as Gurdjieff’s or plagiarised from others. It is original in some ways. Actually, you don’t have to read all the books, just looking up qoutes on the ‘New Man’ online would be well worth the time.

      “Shanti comes away with the following piece of hype: “In fact, Osho was likely the ‘Maitreya Buddha’ that Gautama Buddha predicted would return in 25 centuries.”
In fact? There is nothing factual about this.”

      It is not a fact. I should have put in my opinion, Osho was likely the Maitreya Buddha, the friend.
      In 1986, in Mumbai Osho received a question from a sannyasin about a vision he had had that Buddha had merged with Osho in some way. Osho replied that in fact several close disciples had perceived this, but he had not been going to say anything until this question was asked. Apparently Gautama the Buddha had merged his third body with Osho, which fulfilled the Maitreya prophecy. (see the series ‘The Osho Upanishad’).

      Osho said that although he loved Buddha and was very close to him, he would continue speaking with his own individuality amd would not compromise.

      Later, in 1989, in a separate incident, a Japanese Zen seeress sent a message to Pune that she believed Osho was being used as a vehicle by Gautama the Buddha. Osho again confirmed this to be true, but again reiterated that he would continue with his own individual message.

      “It is also not true.” That is your opinion, Lokesh, but the problem is that you don’t know Osho very well, and obviously don’t really ‘get’ Osho.

      “Maitreya Buddha loves Rolls Royces, and ridiculously expensive watches, asking his female disciples to perform sexual favours for him and in his spare time gets high on a rubbish drug while watching reruns of his favourite movie, ‘Patton’.“

      Those things, mainly from things you read, or saw from a distance, not what you ever saw or experienced first-hand yourself, was what has put you off Osho. You got stuck on the Rolls Royces, and expensive watches. You wanted the old traditional guru model from Pune One.

      Apparently there is a old Maitreya Buddha statue in Japan, the statue displays extravagant clothing and ornaments unfamiliar with the traditional Buddha statues.

      Thank God that Osho did those things. Which still makes so many people angry and is still a joy to watch them react to.

      An enlightened Buddha like Osho producing a display of 90 Rolls Royces is not likely to happen on this planet again. A brilliant play from Osho, original and also a superb disgusting device that help to create some space around him and left less intelligent people thinking he was really into Rollers.

      “That does not sound at all like the kind of guy Gautam Buddha predicted would arrive on the spiritual scene 2,500 years after dying from food poisoning. Did the Buddha foresee that happening and use it as a device for his followers’ awakening?”

      No, Osho was a futuristic Buddha.
      Many Buddhists will still be waiting for a Maitreya Buddha that will never come, just like many Jews missed Jesus when he came.

      Not a Buddha who has to carry a begging bowl and fulfil the expectations of the society. No, a mystic with a new holistic vision. And it is a joy to watch so many fools on a spiritual trip feel that they superior to Osho and sannyasins because they have been given the poverty consciousness programming, from a young age, the cult programming.

      “Leave being special to the delusional ones.”

      Lokesh, you are one of the delusional ones.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Much of Lokesh’s post on not going along with the hype I agree with; when you’re in an ordinary space people are ordinary. But when you’re in an extraordinary space…it reminds me of a lecture by Terence McKenna, where he says that in psychedelic spaces your mantras and magical invocations are indeed potent. And in my own journeying on the edge of sleep I have come across many strange things, so who is to say what is possible and what is not?

      But Osho’s track record on predicting future events was terrible. He obviously wasn’t above pulling some predictions out of the hat just on the off-chance that it might be true.

      • swamishanti says:

        NP wrote:
        “But Osho’s track record on predicting future events was terrible. He obviously wasn’t above pulling some predictions out of the hat just on the off-chance that it might be true.”

        This is absolutely untrue. If you talk to sannyasins or read their books you will find a common occurrence is that Osho would accurately predict future events, even when sannyasins involved had no idea what he meant until the future events occurred in their own lives.

        • Nityaprem says:

          Whenever Osho’s predictions are mentioned its the big ones that he got wrong that stand out. Luckily he didn’t make a habit of making predictions, perhaps he knew he wasn’t very good at it.

          • swamishanti says:

            Well, he accurately predicted large events that passed too.
            Including the invention and spread of the smartphone.

            In Pune One he knew certain events would take place on the Ranch, the ‘second commune’ would be dominated by power. The ‘third commune’ would be dominated by death.
            The communes were hardly small events.
            Many times he predicted things that would pass.

            If you look at my reply to Lokesh I mention that it wasn’t only Osho that was predicting apocalyptic events in the late part of the 20th century.

            Among other masters, Haidakan Babbaji, who materialised a body and appeared in a cave in Mount Kailash, in 1970 was also predicting a nuclear war, floods, earthquakes and other things.

            Satya Sai Baba made predictions of future world disruptions.

            Haidakan Babbaji, also towards the end of his short life said that a nuclear apocalypse had been averted. He didn’t mean averted by politicians. He meant by spiritual forces.

            Therefore, it may be that whatever catastrophes Osho was predicting may have come into his future sight, but were averted.

            Or, another possibility is that some events he predicted will still come to pass.

            But he could easily see that ‘his work would grow massively, beyond your wildest dreams’ as he put it before he left the body.

            He knew that he would still be popular after he left the body and ‘many more people will come’.
            He knew that Neelam would ‘come home’, when he gave her the title of her book.

            MOD:
            Shanti, is “Among other masters” correct? The beginning of the sentence was lost while sub-editing.

  13. Lokesh says:

    Shanti says, “You like to believe that Osho was killed by his nitrous oxide revelations, but this is not at all a proven fact.”

    This is untrue. What I like to believe is the report about the dignified way in which Osho handled dying. As to what caused Osho’s death I’m not at all concerned. It is also not a proven fact that Osho died from thallium poisoning. The only fact is that he died.

  14. Lokesh says:

    I read the above post from Shanti, an Osho quote, with some interest. I pondered it and then something occurred to me.

    For years I sat listening to Osho in Buddha Hall, as he spoke about how the priests would move in once he left this world. He was right. I don’t think he was right because he was clairvoyant, but rather because he knew his religious history and deducted that the priests taking over once a master is gone is what always happens.

    Not only do the priests appear on the scene but the bible thumpers also. This time they do not just have one book to thump, they have hundreds. They always have an Osho quote at hand. Thanks to the internet their job is made even easier. Any idiot can dig up an appropriate quote to fit their requirements.

    Shanti is a prime example of an Osho bible thumper. Ask him a difficult question and what does he do? He delivers an Osho quote. Why does he do this? For a start it is easy but more importantly, he can hide his basic insecurity behind the veil of Osho quotes. He can’t supply decent answers but Osho can because Osho spoke a lot of non-sense that can smother any effort of intelligent logic. Hence we can use a paradoxical term like “religionless religion” to answer why it is that from day to day Osho constantly contradicted himself. Osho pulled that off with style. Coming from parrots it sounds pathetic.

    Arpana was another Osho bible thumper. His disappearance from this site coincided around about the time of his giving an absurd interview about his Osho experience. He had to speak for himself and when he did it was a cock-up. He came across as an overly sentimental fool who actually had little to say for himself other than blubbering a lot of trite emotional shite. And he could not pull an Osho quote out of the bag to save the day.

    Then we have the likes of Satchit, who deals in fifth-hand info and speaks as if it’s his experience. He is conceited and utterly stuck in a loop of his own making wherein he can deliver some stupid one-liner and label it as today’s zen koan. How smug is that? He is a casualty of reading Osho books.

    There are as many versions of Osho going around as there are people who had contact with him on some level or another. At first, I was attracted to Osho by his words. I read ‘The Way of the White Cloud’ in Goa and headed for Poona. Once I actually met Osho it soon became apparent that his words had little to do with his message, transmission, real vibe etc. His words were, at best, a distraction for the mind so that the love could flow more smoothly.

    Decades down the line Osho’s marvellous presence is no longer there but his words are. Of course, you can hear the sheep bleat that Osho is a living presence in their heart…good luck to them. It is all words and although Osho loved his books, they were not the highest thing on his agenda….that place belonged to an indescribable force that words fall well short of describing.

    • satchit says:

      Very impressive, Lokesh, but you missed it.

      Since reading my first Osho book, with me it was ‘Book of the Secrets Vol.5′, I know that Osho is not his words.

      Because of this it is also a stupid idea to ask somebody about an inconsistency in his quotes.

      If I use Osho quotes here, it is play, nothing more.

      Sometimes I wonder if you are frustrated and disappointed by him, because he did not behave in the way you expected him to behave?

    • swamishanti says:

      Lokesh wrote:
      “Not only do the priests appear on the scene but the bible thumpers also. This time they do not just have one book to thump, they have hundreds. These jerks always have an Osho quote at hand. Thanks to the internet their job is made even easier. Any idiot can dig up an appropriate quote to fit their requirements.”

      Lokesh, you have banged on about how you dislike Osho quotes here on SN for years. You don’t like Osho much and want to shout loudly about it, and you have been given a lot of power to do this here on SN. Your comments have gone on before everyone else’s for many years.

      You hate it when people express a lot of positivity about Osho, you have deluded yourself that you are superior to others and, despite having a very limited understanding of Osho, the result of this is that since you came on the site sometime around 2011, gradually everyone who was writing here who is into Osho has left.

      It used to be a busy site. Now it is a graveyard. No-one is interested in it.

      Now it is popular mainly with innocent Christians who don’t know any better about Osho, who like your writings and the general lack of positivity here, and are very happy about it and have been using links to the site to attack Osho around the internet. The other people attracted are ex-sannyasins with an axe to grind who like to feel better about their own failures.

      Lokesh wrote:
      “Not only do the priests appear on the scene but the bible thumpers also. This time they do not just have one book to thump, they have hundreds. These jerks always have an Osho quote at hand. Thanks to the internet their job is made even easier. Any idiot can dig up an appropriate quote to fit their requirements.”

      “Shanti is a prime example of an Osho bible thumper. Ask him a difficult question and what does he do? He delivers an Osho quote. Why does he do this? For a start it is easy but more importantly, he can hide his basic insecurity behind the veil of Osho quotes. He can’t supply decent answers but Osho can because Osho spoke a lot of non-sense that can smother any effort of intelligent logic. Hence we can use a paradoxical term like “religionless religion” to answer why it is that from day to day Osho constantly contradicted himself. Osho pulled that off with style. Coming from parrots it sounds pathetic.”

      There is no question of any insecurity, I can easily and simply explain to you in basic, clear and understandable terms, my own experience with Osho, without using any Osho qoutes. In fact, I have.

      But you are not ready to understand, or listen. You have convinced yourself that you know best.

      The few people have come onto the site and talked directly about their experiences with Osho you have attacked, along with Anand Yogi.

      The result is that thousands of sannyasins around the world don’t bother with this little site anymore.

      The ‘failed sannyasin syndrome’. You have no consciousness. You ran into doubts. Then you started to believe that others who spoke of a connection with Osho could be ‘creating’ their experiences. They could be just like you used to be, simple believers, just imagining.

      With this, you can start to believe that you are superior to others. They are still ‘in the cult’. The ego needs to try to feel superior somehow. Simple believers, your own projection of yourself at a young age, when you used to trust blindly yet had no consciousness.

      You convinced yourself but to everyone else it just looks crass.

      But you like to hang around anyway. The ego feels superior. In your own mind, you are ‘thinking for yourself’. Everyone else is in the ‘cult’.

      The reality is you are not thinking for yourself any more than anyone who is more experienced with Osho than you are, they have all the same critical faculties as yourself, they are not gullible, they have passed through the same doubts, in fact they will often be sharper, yet they just have more experience and understanding than yourself.

      Now you move on to attack Arpana and Satchit. You disliked Arpana’s Loveosho podcast. What a surprise. And Satchit.

      Two sannyasins who are far more experienced and mature than yourself. Tell them off. They too will enjoy sharing Osho qoutes.

    • dominic says:

      Funny, Lokesh, I was having similar thoughts.

      What to do? This cult mind Jehovah’s Witness mentality seems to cycle round. One person leaves only to morph into another clone of it. It is a bit sad and frustrating and doesn’t make for interesting reading, and in the end it is tempting to give up and leave.

      I can see why other social media sites ban long filler parroted quotes. Yes, it’s easy, it’s quick, and requires little effort, but I would rather hear a shantypants word salad, or someone struggling to articulate a homegrown turnip of a thought, than scriptural words googled and smugly copy-pasted.

      Maybe it’s hard to break that habit, and there’s some sort of pay-off in a way I don’t understand. I also suspect there is some insecurity and unworthiness underneath it, not to feel enough to have your say.

      As for Satchit, everything is a “play, haha heehee, please don’t take me seriously”, don’t worry nobody ever will at that rate. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to write more than three lines, maybe three paragraphs of your own, without the usual game of spiritual oneupmanship.

      Honestly though, I’m willing to bet, nothing will change.

      • satchit says:

        Certainly things change, Dominic.

        Not so long ago SN was on its deathbed, and now
        we have the good auld game again, Yahoo!

        Yes, I’m retired, so I have enough leisure time to play games here. What game you want?

        Enlightened or not?

        Say hello to your twin brother!

      • swamishanti says:

        A sannyas site with no Osho quotes? Sorry, but it’s unlikely to going to happen.

        Quotes from other masters, different scriptures are also welcome.
        Superiority complexes about not using Osho qoutes are rather naff and silly and the ones that believe that they are thinking more independently are actually often far more narrow-minded, limited only to some of Osho’s ideas which they imbibed when they were younger and unable to accept other possibilities.

        We’ve had some very good discussions over the years and I used to enjoy some of the threads when there was more input from sannyasins, those were mainly the ones that featured Ozen Rajneesh’s group from Mexico, not that I have any affiliation with them, but as there was much more of a wider discussion.

      • Lokesh says:

        Hi Dominic, if you visit Ibiza look me up.

        One of my neighbours is named Dominic. He is a French artist who lives the impoverished artist’s lifestyle. He is also quite a remarkable chap. Swims in the sea in winter and paints excellent paintings. He is 75 and does not look a day over 60. Wim Hoffing it certainly seems to have paid off for him. He is doing something right, for sure.

        • dominic says:

          Thanks, Lokesh, will do. I bet you have a lovely place there.
          Good for him. Van Gogh died broke, but his starry night now worth a 100 mill. Being an artist is in the blood, isn’t it, you have to do it or you get antsy.

          Swimming and therefore breathing deeply in cold water is electrifying, you know you’re alive, your mind can take a break, and you feel so energised coming out. Shows great discipline, Parmartha used to like to do that, I believe. Cheers

  15. Lokesh says:

    Anyone remember an Osho book titled ‘I Am the Gate’?
    I looked up the word ‘Gate’. Dictionary says “a hinged barrier used to close an opening in a wall, fence, or hedge.”

    Okay, I get the picture. What I don’t get is why there is such a big crowd standing outside the gate. Many are bowing down and worshipping the gate as if they have arrived at their destination. How come they don’t pass through the gate and check out what is hidden behind it? After all, that is why the gate was created in the first place. Yet, there they stand, perhaps for eternity. From the other side of the gate, their excited conversation sounds like a flock of bleating sheep. Ah, well, no surprises there.

  16. Lokesh says:

    Dominic, I was just thinking about Poonjaji. I’ve mentioned this before, but it is worth reminding people about it.

    One thing I found refreshing about Poonja was that he made it very clear that anything you felt or experienced with him was your business.

    This whole trip about feeling Osho’s presence is pure hokum. It is kind of like saying the air you breath is me. Awareness or consciousness does not need to be stamped with someone’s name. It is everyone’s.

    Osho, of course, was perfectly aware of this. Nonetheless, he enjoyed his role as ringmaster in the Circus Maximus. Unfortunately, the sheep have overrun the ring and the lions have headed for the mountains…or perhaps that is not unfortunate and just the nature of sheep and lions.

    • swamishanti says:

      “One thing I found refreshing about Poonja was that he made it very clear that anything you felt or experienced with him was your business.”

      Yet he made a big deal out of it when Andrew Cohen went and started teaching – after Poonja told him he was enlightened. Andrew said he was angry and couldn’t understand that. Which means Poonja felt it was his business.

      “This whole trip about feeling Osho’s presence is pure hokum. It is kind of like saying the air you breathe is me.”

      Not really, no. The presence of each master is individual. The Source may be one, but the fragrance is individual. Think of those Indian pictures of gods with millions of heads.

      • Lokesh says:

        “Think of those Indian pictures of gods with millions of heads.”
        No thanks, Shanti. That’s more your department.

        You know, one of the things I have always appreciated about the Dalai Lama is that he does not pretend to know everything. Once in a while, he is asked a question and he chuckles and says, “I don’t know.” You might want to give that a try sometime. It might come as a relief.

    • dominic says:

      Awareness is always here in the background, that’s the whole deal with nonduality. Our attention gets hooked on thinking and perceptions. When attention is flipped back on to itself, to its source, that is presence, consciousness, the unified field, whatever you want to call it, that’s ‘enlightenment’, that’s all it is! The peaceful, still, whole, timeless background that is everywhere in all things. The world of people and things is the activity of this one Being, which includes all sheep and sheep masters!

      So ‘enlightenment’ is no biggie, it’s ‘just’ turning around to the source of the ten gazillion things, but itself can never be an object, so that you can’t ‘know’ it or understand it.
      All the flashy gurus are a bit of a distraction really, if they need to be put on a pedestal, made to feel special, stroked, and pampered, and for you to feel less than, or if you’re fed the line that it’s a really long journey, with a lot of woo woo on the way, and emptying of pockets.

      It will always be a journey for the human side, but the inner sky of awareness doesn’t go anywhere and is ever present.

      You don’t create it, or move towards it. It’s there whether your mind is busy or not, always in the background below our fascination with the waves.

      Here’s the kicker, which is hard to believe!
      Even Shanti and Satchit are bathing in it, right now! I know, incredible!
      Is there somewhere I can go to complain about this?

      • satchit says:

        “‘enlightenment’ is no biggie…”

        Very impressive and sophisticated, Dominic.
        Reminds me of Frank, who was also a good philosopher.

        • True, Satchit, it can be shared, it would be able to make inroads even in the heart of a rude truck driver, it remains to understand what is meant by “pedestal”.

          If the pedestal has the function of making the speaker visible and audible, it is clear that the smaller the audience, the lower it will be.

          It remains to decide whether it is the size of the pedestal that determines the size of the audience or vice versa, and the role that the things that are said from that pedestal play.

          It seems clear to me that only an idiot decides to feed an audience based on the size of the pedestal, so it is equally idiotic to think that a small pedestal is a guarantee of wisdom.

          For example, Lokesh, asymmetrically puts you and me on the very small pedestal of idiots saving the author’s post, just because he thinks that saying right things heard from someone without using a pedestal is a symptom of humility and therefore wisdom.

          But this is only possible virtually.

          Imagine if the post in question had such an impressive success that it would have a large audience requesting a meeting at the source of such wisdom, we know how Lokesh busts our balls on the importance of vibration…then what would the “humble pedestalless fount of wisdom called dominic” do”?

          Maybe he would answer them: “You are too many, I should use a pedestal, this would imply that you are idiots who want to suck my dick after midnight, and this is not ethical!”?

  17. I’m reading (from the beginning, not here and there as I did a long time ago) Sam’s book.

    Speaking of the ruinous way in which the Ranch experience ended, he says that with it ended an era of youth rebellion that for 20 years had sought and proposed an alternative social model. This assumes that the pre-existing pattern that those young people had tried to change by changing themselves eventually prevailed, corroborated by that victory.

    I think that with Osho, with his profound “yes to life”, the challenge to the ordering principle of modern society (founded on the leadership of capitalism, by the winning nations of the Second World War) has reached its highest point, in the possibility of a synthesis between Buddha and Zorba.

    The young people, and the adults who still retained the youthful energy necessary for the protest/proposal, had joined Osho in that desert (managing to turn it into a garden) after having managed to cross the homogenizing and commodifying device of the western world.

    Today we know more and more accurately that nothing in the so-called democratic Western world is what it seems, public institutions are doing less and less to serve the interests envisaged by their office, which should, in fact, be public, that is, of society as a whole, not for the benefit of the usual happy few.

    The successful attempts to infiltrate/corrupt that magmatic youth movement, bearer of eternal/universal instances have involved many fields, from politics to drugs, from art to the media, is it possible that Osho’s deconditioning teaching didn’t represent a threat to the status quo?

    Was it possible that the North American wolf looked sympathetically at that little Indian who had created a garden in his den?

    Is it possible that for the hegemonic entities the “guru” or “religion” frame made a Master like Osho harmless and uninteresting?

    Is it possible that what happened in Oregon is not the result of something arranged long before in India?

  18. Nityaprem says:

    The thing that I feel gets a little lost on this forum is brotherhood. Most people here, perhaps everyone, took sannyas at one point, and for most of us it was an important part of our search into the spiritual for a time.

    Osho was different things to different people. For some he was the Master, for others he was the spiritual friend. It is no surprise that there is bickering about who Osho was and what he could do, he probably would have loved to see it.

    I think Osho quotes can be helpful, but it’s too easy to take them out of context and just look for something to justify your side of an argument. It’s better to listen to a whole discourse.

    • swamishanti says:

      The thing with Osho quotes is very simple.

      People who are into Osho will enjoy reading them. Of course, Osho quotes will come into a ‘Sannyas site’ and always have done on this one, including being used as posts, despite occasionally being complained about by Lokesh.

      The people who complain about Osho quotes on a ‘Sannyas’ site are those who find then threatening on some level.

      Some who like to feel they are ‘above’ others on some level, or those who are perhaps competing with Osho as a father figure on some level may complain about Osho quotes.

      Say someone comes onto Sannyasnews and talks about having a living connection with Osho.

      Then, Lokesh tells them they are deluded or having ‘spiritual fantasies’. Someone else who is inexperienced may suggest that ‘people can create things’, etc.

      Usually that person will not bother hanging around.

      Sannyasins will not like to talk about spiritual experiences much anyhow.

      But if someone has mentioned this, and then finds a quote where Osho talks about just that (like I did yesterday) that those who are really with him with always be with him:

      “And I don’t care a bit what you will be doing when I am gone. If you cannot do anything while I am here, what can be hoped about you? If you go on missing me while I am alive, naturally you will go on missing me when I am dead. It will not make much difference to you.

      And it will not make much difference to others who are not missing me right now. They will never miss me. Even when I am gone I will be there in their heart, as alive as ever. Once you are really in contact with a living Master, that living Master becomes your living Master forever. Then there is no need.”

      Osho: ‘Sufis: People of the Path’, vol 1

      Then, this becomes threatening to those commentators such as Lokesh and Simond who like to believe it is all a fantasy and put a lot of energy into telling others that they are delusional.

      Because now, as well as telling sannyasins that they are delusional, and imagining that you are ‘above’ them, with Osho’s quote where he is actually saying it will be like that, it means that now you have to make Osho a total liar as well as telling sannyasins that they are fantasists or deluded.

      Then if Osho is such as liar, a fraud, and you feel you are so above this. You have to maintain that stance.

      Therefore the only people who are complaining about people using Osho quotes are those who are threatened by the quotes on some level, they are those commentators who never had that inner connection, who now like to imagine that they used to be part of a group, and now they are more independent. That has become the ego trip, the fantasy of ‘standing on my own two feet’, whilst imagining that all other sannyasins are part of a ‘herd’. The posture is now that your ego is now above that herd.

      MOD:
      Shanti, it’s ‘quote’, not ‘qoute’ (lol)!

      • satchit says:

        Yes, Shanti, that is true.

        Lokesh is on a mission. He is the lion who wants us poor sheep also becoming lions, by dropping
        Osho.

        One could even say, he is a kind of missionary, the poor lion.

      • Nityaprem says:

        So according to Swamishanti it’s all about people’s investment in Osho and who they thought he was. Essentially an ego game. You’d think that most long-time sannyasins would have their ego under control by now….

      • SS, don’t be too hard on him, he’s been a bully for too long….

      • Lokesh says:

        Osho:
        “Gurdjieff was really a remarkable Mystic, one of the most remarkable who has ever walked on the earth. But to understand him is more difficult than to understand anybody else. With Gurdjieff it was true – he was very secretive. If anybody wanted to get anything from him, it was not an easy job. Even if you read his book, you cannot read more than ten pages. It is a one-thousand-page book. All And Everything is the name of the book, but you cannot go on more than ten pages, for the simple reason that he writes in such a way that to find out what he is saying is difficult. One sentence goes on running over the whole page.

        By the time you end the sentence you have forgotten the beginning. And what happened in the middle, nobody knows. He was inventing words of his own, so you cannot consult any dictionary. Those words belonged to no language, he simply invented them. And they are long words – sometimes half the sentence is only one word. Even to read it is difficult, to pronounce it is difficult. In that book of one thousand pages, perhaps there are ten sentences at the most which are really profound.

        Gurdjieff could have printed them on a postcard, but that man was a category in himself. He wants you to find those ten sentences in that one-thousand-page book, which he has made as difficult as possible. No book has been written the way Gurdjieff’s book was written. People go to silent places, holiday homes, beaches, mountains, to write books. Gurdjieff used to go to restaurants, pubs. And sitting in the middle of the restaurant where everything was going on – hundreds of people coming in and going out, all kinds of talk – he was writing his book, his masterpiece.

        Every day, in the evening, his disciples would gather in his house, and one disciple would read what he had written that day. Gurdjieff would watch the faces of the other disciples, to see whether they were understanding it or not. If they understood it, he would have to change it the next day. If nobody understood it, it remained. It took ten years for him to write that book, and he has hidden the secrets in those one thousand pages. He is right: you have to steal. It is almost like stealing.

        You enter a house you have never been in. In the darkness of the night – when even the people who live in the house cannot move, in case they stumble upon some table or some chair – the man who has come to steal has a tremendous artfulness. In the darkness, in a strange house, he manages not to stumble, not to make any noise. And miraculously, he finds the place where the treasure is. He has no map, he has no way to find out where the treasure is. But the master thieves have an insight.

        Gurdjieff’s sly man is the man who has a knack for finding the right door when there are thousands of similar doors all around. It is true that Gurdjieff was a difficult man, almost impossible to cope with. One of his disciples, Nicoll, was traveling with Gurdjieff in America. In the middle of the night, they went aboard a train, and Gurdjieff, although not drunk, started behaving like a drunkard, utterly drunk.

        The disciple said, ”What are you doing, Master?”
        Gurdjieff hit Nicoll, and he said, ”Who are you? I have never seen you before.”
        He woke up the whole train, because he was stumbling from one compartment to another compartment, shouting obscenities, waking people who were asleep, throwing their bags out of the train. Finally the train was stopped; the driver and the conductor came in. But Gurdjieff was a very strong man, solid rock, and nobody dared to catch hold of him; he might throw the man out of the window!

        And Nicoll, poor man, was trying to tell the people that he is a great master! The people started looking at Nicoll and they thought, ”You are mad. He is a drunkard and you are mad. He is a great master? – in the middle of the night waking strangers, throwing their things around, shouting obscenities, speaking strange languages!”

        Somehow Nicoll persuaded the conductor and the driver, ”He is a famous master, but what to do? This is his way.” They agreed to let him stay on board only if Gurdjieff and Nicoll went into the compartment and they locked it from the outside. Then whatsoever they wanted to do inside they could do – the great master and the great follower – ”But don’t disturb the whole train.” As the door was locked, Gurdjieff relaxed, laughed, and he asked Nicoll, ”How was the scene?” Nicoll was perspiring in the air-conditioned compartment.

        He said, ”The scene? You almost killed me. They thought I was mad, and I knew perfectly well you were not drunk, because up to then you were absolutely alright. And suddenly…?”

        Gurdjieff said, ”It was a test for you, whether you can stay with me if I behave in such a manner. Can you still see the master in me?” Nicoll said, ”I am ready to go to hell with you. Whatever you do, there is a deep trust in me that it must be for something good. I knew it all the way, but what to do with the passengers, the conductor, with the driver? The whole crowd was against me, and I am not so strong a man as you are.”

        Gurdjieff was Caucasian, and the Caucasus is famous for producing really strong men. Another Caucasian was Joseph Stalin. The word ‘stalin’ in Russian means man of steel. But Gurdjieff was far ahead of Joseph Stalin. This was a test for the follower. Just think of yourself – you would have escaped. Seeing the situation, that he is going to be caught and thrown into a jail…. That’s what the driver and the conductor and the engineer were all saying: ”If you don’t stop, we are going to throw your master into jail. At the next station the police will be there, we have already informed them.”

        But to trust a man like me is very simple. I will not put you in any such situation. You need not steal anything from me, because I am putting everything on the table before you. So Gurdjieff’s statement is relevant only to him and to his disciples. It is absolutely irrelevant to me and you. I am not your master, I am not hiding anything from you. You need not steal. I am trying to give you the gift and you go on running!

        I am trying to present you the truth, as a gift. But truth – even to accept it as a gift – is a difficult phenomenon, because if you accept the truth, then all the lies that you have been living up to now have to be dropped. Gurdjieff was his type. I am my type. And I know there is no need for me to hide anything, because you are hiding from me, and I am trying to push truth, love, compassion, meditation – everything – into your pockets. And you go on running away from me because you know that I am a lazy man and I will not run after you.

        You have simply to receive with grace. There is no need to steal here. Why should you be reduced to thieves? Why should you be made the sly man? I want you to be the innocent child, who is ready and open and vulnerable. And I am so full of my ecstasy that I want to rain on anybody without asking his qualifications, his characteristics. But you are so afraid seeing the rain cloud coming up, you rush into your homes just to save your clothes, afraid that they will get wet. Yes, it is true you are dry, and if you allow me to shower on you, you are going to become juicy.

        People have asked, ”We see the women here in the commune are becoming juicier and juicier, and the men are becoming more and more tight, straight, afraid.” The reason is simple: the woman is always ready to open her heart. The man thinks a thousand times before opening his heart. He takes all precautions, because ”Who knows what a man is going to do when you open your heart?” But the woman is more trusting, more loving, more feeling. That’s why they are becoming juicier and juicier. Soon they will all be rain clouds ready to shower.

        But the only possible way out of this mess is being in tune with somebody who is already awakened. You are asleep; only somebody who is awake can shake you out of your sleep, can help you to come out of it. Gurdjieff used to say: If you are in a jail, only somebody who is out of jail can manage it, can arrange it so that you can escape from the jail; otherwise it is impossible.

        And you are not only in a jail — you have been hypnotized and told that this is not a jail, this is your home. You are not only in a jail — you have believed it to be your home and you are decorating it. Your whole life is nothing but decorating the jail, and you are competing with other prisoners who are decorating their dark cells.

        Only somebody who is free, who has been in the jail once and is no longer in the jail, can manage to wake you, to make you aware of the reality. He can manage to dehypnotize you, he can help you to be unconditioned, and he can devise methods and means so that you can escape from the jail. He can bribe the warden, the jailor; he can bring a ladder close to the wall, he can throw a rope inside. He can make a hole in the wall from the outside…a thousand and one possibilities.

        But the only hope for you is to be in deep contact with somebody who is awakened. The awakened one is called the master — Satguru. If you can find a master, don’t miss the opportunity — surrender, relax into his being, imbibe his awareness, let his fragrance surround you. And the day is not far away when you will also be awakened, you will also be a buddha. Keep on reminding yourself that unless you are a buddha, your life is a wastage. Only by being a buddha does one’s life have grace, beauty, intelligence, significance, benediction.

        Gurdjieff used to say that unless you are cunning you cannot escape from the bondage of the world — because the bondage is so complex that you have to be very sly. Gurdjieff used to say that if you want to learn from a master you have to be very sly, cunning. That’s how he learned. He moved for at least twenty years from one master to another master — but masters take their own time, they are not in a hurry. They don’t live in time, they live in the eternal, so there is no hurry.

        But Gurdjieff was in a hurry, so rather than waiting until whenever the master feels the time is right and he will impart his knowledge, he will impart his wisdom, he started stealing wisdom from the masters. Gurdjieff says he learned by stealing, by being cunning. It looks strange to use the words ‘sly’, ‘cunning’, in reference to spirituality, but Gurdjieff is a rare man. If you understand him rightly, what he means simply is: be clever, be intelligent, be utterly alert, be wise.

        Now, it is up to you, a great challenge to man. Are you going to save your clothes? Then you will remain dry bones, straight, tight, but with no juice. I am available. You just drink out of me. The well cannot run after you, you have to come to the well. But there is no need to steal, because the well is available, waiting for you. This is one of the fundamental laws of spiritual life, that the more you give, the more you have. And I can say from my own experience that the law is one hundred percent true. The more I have given, suddenly I have found, from unknown sources of existence, more juices have flowed towards me.

        By whatever path you go, you will have to lose yourself in the one. Surrender is complete only when you reach the stage `Thou art all’ and `Thy will be done’.

        Peace is your natural state. It is the mind that obstructs the natural state.

        An ajnani sees someone as a jnani and identifies him with the body. Because he does not know the Self and, mistakes his body for the Self, he extends the same mistake to the state of the jnani. The jnani is therefore considered to be the physical frame. Again since the ajnani, though he is not the doer, yet imagines himself to be the doer and considers the actions of the body his own, he thinks the jnani to be similarly acting when the body is active. But the jnani himself knows the Truth and is not confounded.

        When you give up thinking of outward objects and prevent your mind from going outwards by turning it inwards and fixing it in the Self, the Self alone remains.

        Whatever is done lovingly, with righteous purity and with peace of mind, is a good action. Everything which is done with the stain of desire and with agitation filling the mind is classified as a bad action.

        Pain or pleasure is the result of past Karma and not of the present Karma. Pain and pleasure alternate with each other. One must suffer or enjoy them patiently without being carried away by them. One must always try to hold on to the Self. When one is active one should not care for the results and must not be swayed by the pain or pleasure met with occasionally. He who is indifferent to pain or pleasure can alone be happy.

        If someone we love dies, it causes grief to the one who continues living. The way to get rid of grief is not to continue living. Kill the griever, and who will then remain to grieve? The ego must die. That is the only way. The two alternatives you suggest amount to the same. When all are realised to be the one Self, who is there to love or hate?

        Ask yourself the question. The body (annamayakosa) and its functions are not ‘I’. Going deeper, the mind (manomayakosa) and its functions are not ‘I’. The next step takes one to the question: Wherefrom do these thoughts arise? The thoughts may be spontaneous, superficial, or analytical.

        Seeking the source of the ‘I’ serves as a means of getting rid of all other thoughts. You should not allow any scope for other thoughts such as you mention, but should keep the attention fixed on finding the source of the ‘I’- thought by asking, when any other thought arises, to whom it occurs; and if the answer is ‘to me’, you then resume the thought: ‘What is this ‘I’ and what is its source?’

        After the rise of the `I’-thought there is the false identification of the `I’ with the body, the senses, the mind, etc. `I’ is wrongly associated with them and the true `I’ is lost sight of.

        Liberation is not anywhere outside you. It is only within. If a man is anxious for deliverance, the internal Guru (Master) pulls him in and the external Guru pushes him into the Self. This is the grace of the Guru.

        To enquire `Who am I ?’ really means trying to find out the source of the ego or the `I’-thought. You are not to think of other thoughts, such as `I am not this body’. Seeking the source of `I’ serves as a means of getting rid of all other thoughts. We should not give scope to other thoughts, such as you mention, but must keep the attention fixed on finding out the source of the `I’ – thought by asking, as each thought arises, to whom the thought arises. If the answer is `I get the thought’ continue the enquiry by asking `Who is this “I” and what is its source?`

        • dominic says:

          Lokesh takes the lion’s share and goes for gold in the Quotathon Olympics!

          Shanti falls off his chair speechless with his flaccid vegan sausage plate, and wonders if Lokesh was a double agent all along?

          Truth be told, there is an Osho quote for every point of view. How compassionate of the Master to be so inclusive!

          Still, there is a fundamental point here, that Shantibhai (and maybe others) misses, from where he spins out into never-never land:

          “An ajnani sees someone as a jnani and identifies him with the body. Because he does not know the Self and, mistakes his body for the Self, he extends the same mistake to the state of the jnani.”

          From the ‘normal’ perspective of duality, an ajnani (one who is ignorant) identifies with a localized body, in doing so all other bodies and things appear as separate, the world of subject and object.

          From the awakened state as awareness, the jnani sees all little selves happening within the background of the big Self, the manifest multiplicity with the unmanifest, or what the Hindus call Brahman.

          Duality can’t get non-duality because of its approach in constructing a self and a world, but non-duality gets duality, it experiences all the forms, without the underlying oneness being veiled by maya.

          So, the more you put the Master outside of yourself and worship the finger pointing to the moon, the more you are missing the moon.
          Another way of saying it is, “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him!”

          • Dominic, I see that to demonstrate the fallacy of a single sannyasin, perhaps representative of the whole category, you base your argument on a lack of faith in God, you talk about Brahman but Christian moralism and its supposed superiority resonates in you, at least in paternalism.

            Even for you, a man without faith can only live for amusement and thus try to push away from himself the truth of his own miserable existence, at the mercy of reason, with his limitations, suspended between two abysses, the infinite and the nothing.

            In short, either one believes in God and in his mercy or one cannot but miss the point by relying on one’s conscience and little mind.

            You should be a happy person showered with the glory of the lord, what are you doing here among these wandering souls?

            Will you help us mourn when it is finally proven that Osho was Satan?

            Almost off topic: you who have the biggest head here, after Lokesh, do you see any relationship between a Catholic country like Italy and the high percentage of people who have had faith in vaccines?

            • dominic says:

              Sadly, Veet, my head is not big enough to understand what you are trying to say. I read through it a couple of times, but still no wiser. Several Christian references, which I don’t get. Never mind, I can’t understand ‘Finnegan’s Wake’ either which took James Joyce 17 years to write, apparently a great work of literature, so don’t feel bad.

              • Dominic, it’s also not easy for me to understand not what you’re talking about but why you’re talking here to sannyasins about their “unmotivated, pathetic, irrational” love for Osho.

                Preaching like a Dominican, using various aliases, that authentic spirituality is something else, certainly never giving a clue as to what true spirituality should be founded on, yours and your resentful friends, last time you conjured the Hindu cosmogony, no less self-referential than the Christian one, but basically the same bet, the only intelligent one, according to B.Pascal, to have faith in God.

                If we are still here, around this hearth, it is because we are still inspired and witnesses of the enchantment of orange; for me it is secondary to establish who, which and to what extent the three elements (combustible, comburent, igniter) have participated and participate of this fire: Buddhafield, Sannyasins, Osho.

                You and your cynical brethren ironize the possibility that you carry out this intellectual action against the existential teaching/vision that has flourished around Osho because you would get paid or for other practical advantages, but wouldn’t it be better if you did it for free, like a useful idiot hurling cucumbers around who ignore the aboriginal trajectories?

                Then, while you are passionate about counting the hairs on Osho’s ass, someone in the name of science asks you for a leap of faith to let 4 or 5 cucumbers enter your body by calling them vaccines (no, they are cucumbers) and what do you do? Are you the sophisticated hustler attentive to the nuances of how things are said or investigated on the reasons that sometimes lie behind the things that are declared? No, you obedient assuming the dog asana, abandoning your irreverent, nihilistic attitude that you love so much, show off here, to contest Osho’s fascism.

                I appreciate the intellectual honesty when you implicitly acknowledge that you are a poor old apathetic reduced to having a moment of glory handily winning battle rapping against people who have less names-heavy heads than yours, although I retain a hope that this is not the true reason, but to see it you just have to dig a little bit and open up, letting some fair feedback come to you where you never let in any sunshine.

                • dominic says:

                  Veet, I think you’ve got me confused with someone else. I don’t have any aliases or remember saying what you attribute to me, or can understand what you are saying. Never mind, be well.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  It seems to me that Veet is as filled with misconceptions and illusions as most people. It is better to acknowledge that we don’t know anything, that we project our defilements onto others, and we should trust in existence to cleanse ourselves.

                  It is said that a rock has reality. But do national borders have reality? If I don’t believe in them, for me there are no borders. But they still exist in the minds of everyone else, and people react to them.

                  So it is with many things, the shared thoughts of the human race influence what we do. But we should be aware they are commonly-agreed illusions, and we should get into the habit of seeing through to the real.

                  When we finally get to the real and we stop telling ourselves stories, what comes to the fore is love, kindness, generosity, even keeled ness. If instead of projecting our misconceptions onto others we can credit them with the good qualities we come to see, the world will become a more loving place.

                  MOD:
                  What’s “keeled ness”, NP?

                • dominic says:

                  That makes perfect sense, Lokesh. After using a dictionary, Veet’s posts go through google translate, then rolled into pasta dough and made into fresh fettuccine, before being served up to the world. Must be incredibly rewarding and therapeutic.

                • satchit says:

                  Yes, Veet, you may be right with the aliases.

                  Can also be that it is only one person, one frustrated ex-sannyasin.

                  So never give up!
                  The Sangha supports you!

                  MOD:
                  Satchit, there’s no evidence that any current poster is using any aliases.

                  Satchit:
                  Any proof that a current poster did not use a different name in the past?

                  MOD:
                  None that we’re aware of.

                • dominic says:

                  Satchit, you are a very naughty boy, feeding someone’s delirium, who is lost in the fog. We’ll have to send you back to the asylum in a straitjacket, for some shocks.
                  Remember what the Buddha taught….

                • satchit says:

                  Dom, you are a professor and mad doctor on this lonely island of SN.

                  We can only trust your intelligence and surrender.

                  Btw, is Anand Yogi still doing the Kundalini Rap on Ibiza?

                • dominic says:

                  I’ll take that as a compliment, Satchit, like gold dust here.

                  Anand Yogi seems to have climbed over a wall, escaped the compound, and gone absent without leave.
                  Rumoured to be convalescing at an insanitorium from advanced SN-itis, a neurological disorder caused by prolonged exposure to jibberjabber and gobbledygook. He’s apparently doing well, recovering on a regime of microdosing, ayahuasca ceremonies, Wim Hof ice baths, and a low carb keto diet with coffee enemas.

                  He’s definitely not me, I checked. He’s way more funny. Any similarity is due to a genetic disorder, common to the people of these islands.

          • Lokesh says:

            In truth, I am a triple agent, tripleD.
            Today;s Osho quote is…
            “Do not compare yourself to others. If you do so, you are insulting yourself.”
            Or how about…
            “If you want to shine like the sun first you have to burn like it.”
            His blessings.

          • swamishanti says:

            “ This monkey who acts according to his mind was eating fruits and flowers in the jungle.
            But when he met his master, he became God.
            He got that which belonged to him due to his master’s advice.
            All is divine Self. One who saw Himself, his birth and death vanished. To see God in all beings is the worship song for God.

            One who is in the heart of all is God.

            Otherwise, some people were caught up in customs of purity and impurity, or a rosary or repeating mantra.
            Thus Saint Kabir says, “Worship the ever existing God, then 8.4 million births are evaded.”

            “The day that the wrong knowledge regarding the world is eliminated by virtue of the Sadguru’s advice, one becomes convinced that this entire world is only a temporary appearance. When this happens, one becomes able to look at the world and appreciate it as if it were a cinema, or a source of entertainment, and with the detachment that has been achieved, one remains unaffected.”

            “This world is like a dream, and in this dream-like world whatever is considered to be good or bad, merit or sin, or anything in the realm of dualistic morality is of no consequence in the process of awakening to the Self.”

            Shri Siddharameshwar Maharaj (master of Shri Nisargaddata Maharaj & Shri Ranjit Maharaj – qoutes taken from ‘Master of Self-Realization – An Ultimate Understanding’

            • Lokesh says:

              I say, Shanti is now posting photos of bovver boys. Once again, he is scaring off potential readers. This is an Osho sannyas site and only pictures of Osho, his quotes and Walt Disney cartoon characters are allowed, especially of Bambi…and, I almost forgot, King Kong.

            • dominic says:

              Having giving up on Osho contradicting himself, Shanti tries to find another ‘authoritative’ mouthpiece for his amoral agenda.

              “This world is like a dream, and in this dream-like world whatever is considered to be good or bad, merit or sin, or anything in the realm of dualistic morality is of no consequence in the process of awakening to the Self.”

              But wait, oh no! Here is Shri Siddharameshwar Maharaj again extolling virtue and merit. How can this be?

              “Even a dog does not eat a thing which belongs to a sinner.” Renunciation of wealth, feeling of detachment and respect for a saint is the result of former merit and good fortune. He alone starts thinking of a sadhu. It is extraordinary to have such an intellect in the dream within a dream… This is his good fortune. But on account of his virtuous intellect he went to a Guru and discriminated between the True and untrue.”

              You just can’t nail it down, can you, and turn it into a nicely packaged ideology to believe in?

              Even these guys said different things at different times, depending on mood and context, as anyone would. Dammit!

              • swamishanti says:

                The Ignorance and the Wise

                “An ignorant person always sees the world as true. The realised sage sees the world as not true. That is the difference.”

                Nothing

                “When you feel that something can touch you, or harm you, it means that you are in the illusion. How can nothing touch you? Everything in the illusion is nothing.

                Why to fear? Nothing is there. Everything is illusion. Keep your mind in that fearless state only. Just as the poisonous tooth is taken out, in the same way, play with the world, play with the illusion, there is no harm. It won’t affect your mind. Live fearlessly; no death, no fear, knowing that “I am that real power.” There is nothing! What will harm you?

                In the same way, here we experience many things due to the objectivity of the mind. You see all the objects and immediately believe that they are real. At the moment you realise who you are, you see that everything is nothing. That is the main point. Mind should accept that everything is zero. Once the mind accepts that everything is nothing, then nothing remains and my Self is Truth.”

                God

                “The world is full of Him. Nothing is there except Him. What you see is Him.
                No matter if you are poor, sitting on a throne or lying in the gutter, still you are always Reality. The outside appearance has nothing to do with who you are. Everyone is He, no matter what state you may be in.”

                Sri Ranjit Maharaj

                A liberated soul who lived most of his life in relative anonymity, Ranjit Maharaj only began teaching at the age of 70, after the death of Nisargaddata’s Maharaj. Ranjit was the gurubrother of Nisargadatta Maharaj. Their guru was Siddharameshwar Maharaj. Ranjit had been initiated by Siddharameshwar at the age of 12.

                After realisation, like Nisargaddata, he continued performing a daily puja and bhajans for his master.

                “Once you have understood, what is left for you to do? Only pray to the one who has taught you these things. Make duality there, make incompleteness, but only for the thanking,” Maharaj said while explaining his own devotion to his master, and devotees recall how the slightest lapse during the performance of the puja or bhajans always met with strong rebuke.

                In 2000, Ranjit Maharaj suffered a stroke, which left him paralysed on one side. In a touching expression of his devotion, even in this state of health, he travelled almost 1,000 km by ambulance for the annual pilgrimage to Siddharameshwar’s samadhi in Bagewadi in Karnataka.

                MOD:
                Shanti, should the heading be ‘The Ignorant and the Wise’?

                • dominic says:

                  The problem with advaita is, if this is not your lived experience, and just parrotting or replacing one set of concepts with others, it easily turns into smug nihilism.

                  If you could say it in your own words, one could sense the truth of it, even though you can sum up its whole teaching on a post-it note.
                  Any keyboard warrior can copypaste, it’s just words.

                  Anyway, this is old style Asian nonduality, not the 2.0 upgrade.
                  Just like in a game of rock, paper, scissors, advaita beats narrow, progressive path buddhism, but tantra, which includes duality, beats advaita!
                  It doesn’t deny the world as ‘illusion’ or pretend that nothing can touch you. It celebrates life, which as a vulva worshipper, I’m sure you’re in sync with.

                  But it also doesn’t mean, do as you will, and any bad behaviour goes.
                  With Ranjit here (I suspect he’s genuine), but again the contradiction, “Everything in the illusion is nothing.” yet here I am doing Puja and worshipping my teacher. The life lived, in contrast to the hypnotic nondual theory of the pulpit.

                  Nisargadatta chainsmoked and visited prossies I hear, Ramesh used “non-doership” to justify his bad behaviour, in soliciting gifts, and sexual favours.

                  If you want somebody to trust, trust yourself.
                  https://youtu.be/8oZYl1acLbs

                • swamishanti says:

                  “The problem with advaita is, if this is not your lived experience, and just parrotting or replacing one set of concepts with others, it easily turns into smug nihilism.”

                  Yes, I suppose it could turn into a form of intellectual nihilism, and I have seen advaitins like that.

                  I have recieved a similar nonverbal teaching in my own journey of impermanence, that life is illusion, but, it wasn’t actually from reading advaita teachers, it was directly from a Master.

                  In our case I guess you are the one most into reading advaita.

                  I can certainly put some of my own experiences, knowledge and understanding, not just with Osho but other masters into words but SN is not the place for that. When I have attempted to do that people thought I was copying knowledge from books, or imagining stuff. Nevermind.

                  “Just like in a game of rock, paper, scissors, advaita beats narrow, progressive path buddhism, but tantra, which includes duality, beats advaita!
It doesn’t deny the world as ‘illusion’ or pretend that nothing can touch you. It celebrates life, which as a vulva worshipper, I’m sure you’re in sync with.”

                  Indeed. But the same line of these guys, Siddharameshwar, Nisargaddata, and Ramesh, is actually a tantric line which leads back to a famous Nepalese tantric master Goraknath, said to be involved in the origination of the Khajuraho sculptures with his contact with King. He was also one of Osho’s favourite masters of all time. Osho once said that of he had to choose five of his favourite enlightened masters, Gorakh would be included.

                  So it’s ‘tantric-advaita’ with those Maharashtrian gurus.

                  
“ Nisargadatta chainsmoked and visited prossies I hear, Ramesh used “non-doership” to justify his bad behaviour, in soliciting gifts, and sexual favours.”

                  What constitutes ‘bad behaviour’ and what is acceptable has to be up to the individual. Various factors will play a part such as religious conditionings and programmings, expectations of the particular cult-mind of the society, various spiritual lineages and teachings, etc. 


                  One sannyasin who found freedom and got ‘out of the dream’, as it were, with the support of his master, was Swami Anand Veeresh.

                  He was not really into advaita, and one can find some of Osho’s spirit of tantric celebration of life alive in some of his music.

                  ‘Getting Lost’ version 1 , Veeresh and the Humaniversity Sound:

                  https://youtu.be/8OpK2i7H3-M

                  This track from old album, ‘Wherever I Go’, has recently been uploaded to YouTube.

                  There is also later versions of some of the tracks from this album which I prefer, yet, they are on cassette form , apparently the Humaniversity does not have these particular old tapes and they were never released on CD. What the Humaniversity could do is convert the other versions of the album which has some excellent tracks onto mp3 format and then upload them onto YouTube.
                  Older Veeresh such as ‘Time’ which were popular with sannyasins and contained samples of Osho, but we’re also on cassette only and have not been released onto cd.

                • dominic says:

                  “What constitutes ‘bad behaviour’ and what is acceptable has to be up to the individual. Various factors will play a part such as religious conditionings, expectations of the cult-mind of the society, various spiritual lineages and teachings, etc.”

                  Exploiting others for personal gratification is bad behaviour, whatever form that takes, stealing, sexual abuse, slavery etc. you can times that by 10 if you’re in a position of power over vulnerable people or animals. If you mistreat animals for kicks, that’s bad behaviour. If you sexually abuse kids that’s bad behaviour, if you’re a self-serving, corrupt politician that’s bad behaviour, raping women is bad behaviour, if you’re a guru who claims to be enlightened and exploits others for sex, power, money, that’s bad behaviour, it also tells me they’re NOT enlightened, or maybe only part-timers.

                  It’s the Hippocratic Oath, ‘first do no harm.’ Things change for sure and can be cultural, although even if they’re cultural they can still be wrong, like stoning someone to death if they leave their religion, or for being gay, or not wearing a head covering. So I believe in some basic universal values that have to do with some basic empathy and heart wisdom that is timeless. In an awakened state the dial on the compassion-o-meter should be very high, because everybody and everything is yourself and you feel complete and at peace, and because that’s amore.

                • swamishanti says:

                  We all have our own versions and particular morality.

                  However be careful what you read, especially regarding spiritual teachers, or the activities of a particular spiritual group.

                  It is often very difficult for outsiders to really understand what is going on, and even people who lived physically close to Osho, for example, for years, have still come away with not a clue what he was really about on a spiritual level, at all.
                  That is very obvious.

                  Remember, worries about behaviours may seem important right now but, your and others’ particular concerns are unlikely to influence anyone in the Sannyas movement or other groups in the future. And these bodies we are in will soon be dead. Life quickly moves on.

                  If you listen to Osho or other skilled teachers and meditate, you will come across love, which is the ultimate healing force for the planet.

                  This positive track from Veeresh, one of those who became enlightened with Osho, is
                  ‘Yahoo’ from ‘Love In Action’ :

                  https://youtu.be/KeaQ_ntGbVU

                • dominic says:

                  “However be careful what you read”
                  Absolutely right, Shanti, somebody wrote that Mooji and Veeresh were enlightened, rotflmao!.

        • Nityaprem says:

          That’s a very long Osho quote, Lokesh, with quite a lot of stuff in it. Some Gurdjieff, some Advaita, and a few bits of something else.

          • Lokesh says:

            Nitya, your powers of observation are astonishing, but you missed the Hitler quotes.

            • Nityaprem says:

              Yes, well, it took me two days to find the time to sit down and grok the entire monstrous thing. I’m happy to get some recognition for my efforts, albeit sarcastic in tone.

              • Lokesh says:

                NP, has nobody ever told you that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit? I would never write anything to a holy Dutchman that is sarcastic in tone. I trust that poffertjes are in abundance in your neck of the woods.

                Disclosure: This post contains Amazon affiliate links. If you purchase something through the link, I may receive a small commission at no extra charge to you.

              • dominic says:

                NP, I’m wondering how someone who recommends reading the marathon 16,000+ page Pali canon, as time well spent, calls Lok’s quote “a monstrous thing”, comparatively a mere drop in the ocean, while taking 2 days to read it.

                Have those scholarly enlightenment muscles gone flabby?

                Also, calling an orthodox Osho quote “monstrous”, is surely blasphemy, and you know what can happen with that, in certain countries.

                Luckily, Shanti’s having a bit of a lie down, with the shock of being outquoted by his nemesis, Veet’s unintelligible, and I think Satchit’s on hands and knees slowly coming over to the dark side, so you should be ok…for now.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  I think as far as the Pali Canon is concerned, the best you can do is view the highlights, and maybe visit the ‘daily sutra’ webpage for a while. Some translated sutra anthologies are interesting reads.

                  I’m not sure why it gave me trouble, maybe Osho was mimicking Gurdjieff’s ‘All and Everything’.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Maybe I should leave off commenting? In the hope that other regulars will return? Or maybe my few comments about Buddhism were so successful that they’ve all started talking on DhammaWheel.com?

                • dominic says:

                  NP, don’t take it to heart. I suspect Lokesh is just having a laugh while extracting the urine, and one needs fall guys, stooges, rubes, foils for that.

                  Also, those highlights from the Pali Canon, which is five times the size of the Bible I’m told, aren’t going to publish themselves.

                  But if you’re feeling the pull, back to the three jewels, the four noble truths, the five precepts, the eightfold path, the 227 bikkhu rules, 311 for the ladies (all learnt by heart of course!), the 84,000 sutras and a partridge in a pear tree, I can understand.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Yeah, I know… contributors come and go…it happens. Not to be taken seriously.

                  I’ve dipped my toe in the Buddhist waters, maybe more deeply than some, but I don’t feel tempted to become a real Buddhist. It’s a good repository of teachings, but I don’t like the way it integrates with the ordinary world.

                  Osho’s vision of the New Man, bringing spirituality to normal life, still carries a lot of weight with me. I just don’t see myself as a monastic.

                • Nityaprem says: 31 December, 2022 at 10:16 am
                  “Maybe I should leave off commenting?“

                  After reading your a.m. comment I came across this story in the ‘Guardian’:
                  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/dec/31/six-year-old-tibetan-monk-teenage-ibiza-raver-spanish-boy

                  A reincarnation of Lama Yeshe in the West! Refuses to follow the ‘chosen path’ and the education and privileges (??) offered in order to enjoy more of ‘girls, music and wine’. (Older article here:
                  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/may/31/dalai-lama-osel-hita-torres)

                  This brings me (us?) back to reflecting on the teachings of Osho on “Zorba and the Buddha”.
                  The reborn Lama Yeshe seems to have his cup of ‘Zorba’ at least more than half-empty – and needs to fill up on it. Interesting! He was reborn in the Western countries where the luxuries and enjoyments of Zorba are readily available and flowing: milk and honey.

                  Before, he was born in the Eastern countries and lived a life of renunciation. Maybe he renounced for the wrong reasons. But those were the times.

                  Now it seems interesting to me to observe his further inclinations as he has not cut the connection to the Tibetan Buddhist lineage. He keeps it open.

                  In the course of these reflections I got the inner picture of the gorilla lying in the grass in a very relaxed manner. That is my feeling at the moment.

                  So, I change my avatar from the ‘Muslim man praying in front of the almost flooded grave of his parents in Bangladesh’ to the ‘gorilla resting in the grass’.

                  My reflections went further like this:
                  Do I want to go for more rather rigourous praying practices? Uhhh.
                  Do I need more Zorba in my life? Oh well.
                  Would I like to do a self-retreat meditating on my own terms? Yessssss.
                  It is a very relaxed observation from the distance: between Zorba and the Buddha. No forced choice for one or the other. Being with the flow.

                  Thoughts:
                  How many more fucks would one want to give – or have?
                  How many more cars would one want to own and drive?
                  How many more holidays on beautiful tropical islands with beaches would one like to spend?
                  How many more rock concerts does one want to listen to?
                  How many more bigger houses would one like to buy and own?
                  How many more Gayatri mantras would one like to chant?
                  How many more teachers, gurus, leaders, masters etc. etc. etc?

                  Whatever the individual impulse that can be observed to these questions is?

                  Latest insight:
                  Everything that is given to you from the outside will go under again if it is not matched by one’s own understanding, wisdom and power.

                  (I might be wrong, however!!).

                  My conclusion:
                  So, I better forego more of the wonderfully easy and beautiful shaktipat sessions with the (Sufi) master. And walk alone. Yeeahh.

                • While resting in the park Neil Young’s ‘Harvest’ ran through my mind…

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y97hY4djNHE

                  “Dream up, dream up,
                  Let me fill your cup
                  With the promise of a man.”

                • More fitting lyrics from ‘Harvest’ and uncle Neil:

                  “Will I see you give
                  More than I can take?
                  Will I only harvest some?
                  As the days fly past
                  Will we lose our grasp
                  Or fuse it in the sun?”

                • To me, Boo-dhism has been and is purely experiential practice.

                  With bookish studies my mind is going “What?!” early and becoming drowsy…

                  Same for Soofism.

                  Full dive into.

                  Sannyas to me is enjoying the sharing whatever came and comes along.

    • satchit says:

      NP, this forum is not brotherhood.

      If you want brotherhood, you have to go to fb-groups.

      This forum is zen-style.

  19. Lokesh says:

    News update from Nigel

    “I came across Mooji in a curious manner, long ago. I’ll explain. When I was in my early twenties, and living in London, I had a set of friends from an eminent art school, who had become deeply involved in the then ‘house church’ movement. The house church was an off-shoot of American forms of fundamentalist Christianity, with an absolute emphasis of mythical-literal interpretations of the Biblical scriptures. Although I dipped my toe in, I quickly realized something was very wrong.

    The group I knew in Brixton were largely lovely young people looking to live the lives of the early Christians with an immediacy. There was a person looking to be a leader of the group, who was one of the creepiest people I’ve ever encountered, highly manipulative and controlling of the members’ thoughts and behaviours and of course, he had immediate access to God. The Holy Spirit was evoked and who spoke through ‘prophecy’, and through the laying on of hands. I saw people in euphoric states of mind, recounting experiences of bliss and oceanic oneness with God. There was also screaming, writhing, maniacal laughing, being ‘slain’ in the Spirit, babbling in tongues, casting demons out. I have no doubt people had what they imagined had been ‘mystical’ experiences, though the origins were psychological and not spiritual. And unsurprisingly, the house church harmed many people. It was a fundamentalist Christian cult.

    It was an important life lesson and I developed a sensitivity to cultishness since then, and I was grateful for the immunization. As it happened I knew a lad called Michael well, that is, the chap who Mooji cites as being a ‘Christian mystic’ and who was instrumental in Mooji’s first apparent ‘awakening’. Michael was indeed a very lovely and gentle young man and an enthusiastic house church member at the time. But he wasn’t a mystic. Just a nice young man caught up in a culty house church. Anyhow, I saw on Mooji’s official site a photo of Mooji being baptized by Micheal and Simon, who I also knew at that time, and I burst with spontaneous laughter, I was tickled pink! That’s because It was all a drama, a fiction, a shared delusion and a shared hysterical acting out of those fundamentalist mythical-literal beliefs, acting out unconscious archetypes one might say.

    Fast forward to the present – because I had met Tony Moo in those days and because I knew many of the protagonists in the drama, naturally I was interested when I heard Tony Moo had become a guru. And it turns out he’s not the Messiah, he’s a very naughty boy. Almost as if he learned the blueprint of his skills from the house church. On watching videos out of interest, I was dismayed to see a very clever narcissist, with an unending narcissistic supply, who had hoodwinked and brainwashed so many people in the guise of liberation and who actually worshipped him as God incarnate!

    Wow! Mooji isn’t the real thing at all, it’s as astonishing to me as the delusions of the house church.” (Nigel)

    • dominic says:

      I used to visit Mooji in Brixton for a while. Initially there were maybe 10-20 people in his small living room, a lot of plants, a poster of Bob Marley, the smell of incense. He was quite charismatic, hearty, good for hugs, and could tell good stories. The crowd was young, hippie, international, white, very rarely would you see a black guy, even though this was Brixton. After the Satsang, for which no money was asked, we would sit in silence together sharing cake and cookies that people brought to share, while Mooji would serve up some chai that he had brewed up in his adjacent tiny kitchen, while snatam kaur or deva premal music would play in the background. A cool vibe and oasis in London for spiritual seekers.

      As time went by, his popularity grew and he hired a hall, did retreats and held court in Tiruvanammalai on rooftops. Already a commune of sorts was growing around him, of faithful devotees and young girlfriends for him, and there were always plenty of related activities, meals and evening events. He also drew Poona-ites and Papaji-ites. Gradually, everything became more controlled and devotional though, how to sit, how to be, in the Satsang, more formal.

      Not my cup of tea anymore, I just found myself drifting off, falling asleep, bored. I also thought he could be quite arrogant.

      Fast forward, and there’s over 250 pages on him on cult education, including people who have lived in his ashram, now cashram in Portugal.

      Like Osho, from whom he draws, there’s plenty of music and celebration and hook-ups, to release those feel good chemicals, and he can talk the Satsang talk, but yeah, I can agree with Nigel, he’s also a very naughty boy who enjoys the rock star Jesus/Buddha worshipping, kissing-of-feet hoopla around him, a little too much. But hey, ‘it’s money for No-thing and your chicks for free.’

      And the crowd goes wild… https://youtu.be/_zOjRlVpAOQ

  20. dominic says:

    Happy New Year, monkey brains!
    May we all be well in 2023.
    Let’s take a cup of kindness…
    https://youtu.be/7aN4QpL1_GE

  21. Lokesh says:

    Shanti starts the new year off with a bang….which sounds more like a wet fart, fuelled by a pot- pouri of patronizing mumbo-jumbo. His gas-filled conclusion is, “Veeresh, one of those who became enlightened with Osho.”

    Really, man, how could he possibly know that? Veeresh was a good guy who did a good job creating the Humaniversity. As far as his musical outings go, definitely not the most enlightening tunes ever produced. A wee bit twee to say the least. ‘Yahoo’, the track DJ Shanti provides a link to, might have passed as being okay…30 years ago when trance house beats were just beginning to beat. Today it sounds like what it really is, somebody thinking they have a ‘New Age’ message and having the time, money etc. to indulge in producing it, even though the message is cliched as fuck and Veeresh, the enlightened one, loves the sound of his own voice, which is not bad I have to admit.

    Of all the sannyasin outings into the musical field, The Prem Joshua Band lead the pack by far. The album ‘Yatri’ is an east/west fusion masterpiece and many of the songs produce an uplifting vibe with real musicians doing a great job. I’ve seen the band a couple of times live at the ‘Namaste’ event in Ibiza. Place was packed and enjoyed their efforts more when they did a spontaneous jam at a neighbour’s house.

    Conclusion, Veresh was about as enlightened as his music.

    • swamishanti says:

      Lokesh: “ Veeresh was a good guy who did a good job creating the Humaniversity. As far as his musical outings go, definitely not the most enlightening tunes ever produced. A wee bit twee to say the least. ‘Yahoo’, the track DJ Shanti provides a link to, might have passed as being okay… Conclusion, Veresh was about as enlightened as his music. “

      I have quite a wide taste in music, and have a very different view to you of some of his music at least if not all. Personally I consider Veeresh highly talented and have appreciated some of his musical outings and creativity. I like the album ‘ Wherever I Go’ , a lot, although there are different version of some of the tracks on the album on my tape , which in my view are superior.

      Still, on ‘Wherever I Go’, Veeresh is singing about his life from a blissfull space in the ‘now’ ‘Here and Now’, latino style ‘Gosando’.

      ‘Wow’, love and deep inner heart connection and gratitude for the transformation through his Master, and with a highly uplifting message.

      He also sings playfully about his sex life. Can a Buddhist do this? Can a Roman Catholic do this? No, their cages will prevent them.

      For me, the music is always more important than the lyrics, and I believe Veeresh was skilled with his musical output in some of these.

      “Getting Lost’ ,(original): https://youtu.be/8OpK2i7H3-M

      “Wow” (version one) : https://youtu.be/X64CeFW4ZKE

      The second version is superior with more special effects from the studio. Veeresh’s ‘Pune Reggae’ is missing. The Humaniversity Sound need to sort it out, find the other mixes and tapes and upload them onto YouTube for others to enjoy.

  22. Lokesh says:

    I have not seen the ‘Osel’ docu. I am familiar with his story, though. Many years ago, about two kilometres from where I live, there is a house that used to be rented and groups with Tibetan monks took place there. One time a big chief monk told Osel’s mother, who once ran a meditation centre down south, that when he died he might take reincarnation through her. Years passed. big chief monk died and Osel was born to her. A few monks showed up in Ibiza and declared he was one of the boys. And thus the story began.

    Life is strange and strange things happen. I have always dug Tibetan Buddhism and their mysterious goings on in the bardos. Who knows? Will try and catch the docu. I remember Osel’s mother as being a very good-hearted Spanish woman who had a whole bunch of other children. Must have been a trip to let her son be taken off to the Himalayas.

  23. dominic says:

    Nostradominic’s very accurate predictions for SN 2023!
    - Things will happen, other things will not.
    - There will be less of this and more of that.
    - Someone on SN will say something, someone will reply, there will be words!
    - Some people will get crabby and snappy, others will keep calm and carry on.
    - Illusion and delusion will remain popular.
    - Toxic masculinity will remain fashionable, with no discernible toxic femininity.
    - The most exciting thing will be the tension-release of having comments approved. No-one knows the rules of posting which makes it all the more exciting!
    - Some posts will confirm that being uninformed, not knowing anything or caring, is the key to happiness. Some posts will confirm that being a big head and know-all, will make you cynical and miserable
    - Some people will come, some people will go.
    - Osho 2.0, an artificial intelligence, virtual reality simulator, will be delayed till 2030, when you will be able to relive your finest glory days with the Master on infinite replay, then have your memory wiped, so you don’t get bored.
    - All this has been foretold.

    MOD:
    “The most exciting thing will be the tension-release of having comments approved. No-one knows the rules of posting which makes it all the more exciting!”

    The guidelines for posts have been clear for a long time, Dominic, ie not to go ‘over-the-top’ with personal abuse and to keep to the topic. However, there are bound to be instances where views will differ on these, eg one person’s ‘fun’, however cleverly creative, can be another’s ‘inappropriate insult’, and the current topic is being allowed to roll on in various directions, at least for the time being, as there’s plenty of input coming in, which is what SN needs.

    Decisions on what’s ok can be tricky and won’t please everyone, but in fact very little has been disallowed for quite a while.

  24. Lokesh says:

    Just returned from the local gym. There is cleaner there who talks constantly to herself and checks her mobile phone every few minutes, but does not appear to receive any calls or messages. Spain is quite an easygoing country and the locals just shrug and says she is loco.

    In the car, on the way home I discussed this local phenomenon with the missus and got onto how Eki Tolle got on to something by observing someone talking out loud to themself on the metro. I talk to myself all the time, but manage not to speak out loud and am therefore viewed as normal. Isn’t it the case that we all run around talking to ourselves?

    • dominic says:

      Yes, we do, Lok, neuroscientists call it the ‘default mode network’, meditators ‘the monkey mind’. It seems to be running all the time but quietens down when the ‘task network’ is operating, i.e. when you’re focused on a task, and switches off in deep sleep or under anaesthesia, when ‘you’ are gone, and lose all track of time and space.

      I think its function is to construct a self, a me, partly out of conditioning and socialization, but also as an evolutionary survival strategy to keep the body safe. Under psychedelics, or perhaps meditation, other networks are enabled that are normally switched off, for an expanded view.

      The mind often gets a bad rap in spiritual circles, and you hear things like “killing the ego” or “silence the mind”. I have heard of people who claim to have no more unnecessary ‘blahblah’ going on, but for most of us it is not so, and we have to be very accepting of its endless chattering, as there is no off button.

      I think that once it starts to lose its place in the hierarchy as ‘the Boss’ it can become a much more helpful ally, and we can begin to benefit individually from all of its positive qualities.

      • Nityaprem says:

        It seems to me that entirely “silencing the mind” is rather a foolish errand, it doesn’t leave you with much to do other than fall asleep. Maybe it’s better to just take a step back and learn to observe the mind.

  25. Lokesh says:

    BREAKING NEWS!
    Scientists have come up with a clue as to where Osho may have reincarnated. Our Sun is very good at breaking up nitrous oxide, and so there’s not a lot of laughing gas in our atmosphere. But different planets in different stages of their evolution, or ones orbiting different kinds of stars that are less efficient at breaking it up, may have an abundance of that molecule.

    Controversial Indian guru, Osho, has been sighted by the Hubble Bubble telescope, staggering around on Planet XTC25, which orbits a remote orange sun in the Upper Megadon Galaxy. Planet XTC25 is known to have an atmosphere composed entirely of nitrous oxide. A faint repeater signal broadcasting from Planet XTC25 has been picked up by a radio telescope in Palo Alto. It is composed of one word. Yahoo…yahoo…yahoo…Sannyasins all over the world are booking over-priced one-way tickets on an intergalactic Virgin airways flight headed for Planet XTC25.

    SN has tried to contact Richard Branson who has so far declined to comment.

    Remember, you heard it on SN first.

    • dominic says:

      Some high level reporting there from Lokesh.
      Who’s laughing now?

      Frankly, not surprised to hear that Osho has reincarnated on XTC25, and that Sannyasins are eXstaTiC, and will soon be jumping on each other again.

      Clearly part of a Master plan all along, as he never intended to transcend dental medication (TM), quite the opposite in fact.

      Everything’s alright now though, in fact it’s a gas, it’s a gas gas gas…
      https://youtu.be/dgbZ1uiwKKU

  26. Lokesh says:

    BREAKING NEWS.
    A rare photograph has surfaced of my humble self and His Holiness Guru Maharaj Ninkompoopaji Sri Sri Shantamji Bhai, UFO spotting from the cliffs of Ibiza’s north coast a wee while back.

    • dominic says:

      A lovely nostalgic photo, of his humbleness and his holiness, two companeros, not doing drugs in Ibiza, just getting high on the eXsTaCy of being together, while Lokesh wisely keeps hydrated.
      Or is he attempting to communicate with the aliens, with a can of iron bru? Shantamji is wondering if the herbal tea and espresso he snorted earlier, is starting to kick in. If they do make contact with the UFO, I can think of no better ambassadors for intergalactic peace.

      UFO watching in Ibiza is a regular occurrence, I’m told, as aliens like nothing better than dressing up cosmically, hitting the rave scene, going crazy with the locals, and getting effed up together, during party season. Later they will invite their new friends back to the 9th dimension, for some probing experiments and inter-species breeding. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the fruits of that aren’t amongst us here.

  27. @Nityaprem says:
    January 2, 2023 at 9:54 am

    NP, I see that you are intoxicated by the air stirred by the words of your swashbuckling idols. After the midnight blowjobs now your sense of reality makes you worry about my relationship with reality, let’s see if I can help you.

    Your humble beginning is encouraging: “I dunno whether Veet is in a locked ward, it seems to me he is as filled with misconceptions and illusions as most people.” Thank you, this implies that if eventually I were locked inside a physical boundary that deprived me of my freedom I would not be alone, it also implies that you would not be part of the deluded group.

    After the Socratic incipit you reinforce the concept with “It is better to recognize that we know nothing, that we project our contaminations onto others and we should trust in existence to purify ourselves”, I believe that here your humility prevented you from using the right pronoun; in reality you are talking to those who know nothing, not even projecting their contamination onto others and who do not trust in existence, the only way to purify oneself and be able to get out of the locked ward. You actually know a lot more than I do, aside from using the pronoun “we”.

    After worrying about the physical reality that would keep me imprisoned you give me a good lesson in political geography: “It is said that a rock has reality. But do national borders have reality? If I don’t believe in them, for me there are no borders. But they still exist in the minds of everyone else, and people react to them.” Here, through you, I see all the wisdom of that philanthropist of Soros at work, who finances the NGOs of the Mediterranean Sea to act as a taxi for desperate Africans who want to join the desperation of the Italians.

    But there would be many examples of how illusory borders are, the important thing is that whoever crosses them is faced with someone like you who allows them to, in your country, in your home, in your body…no, I’m not thinking about what you allowed to do to Mr. Gates, with his 4 or 5 cucumbers, but to someone who has the same sense of reality as you, ie Mr. Chapman. He will have imagined that if “there are no countries” then there is no authority to defend internal space, i.e. there is no law governing the movement of people and things, like the bullets that pierced John’s borders.

    Then you clarify the importance of rising above the mass of humans who are easily influenced and prey to illusions, like that frightened mass who rebelled against the dogmas of science by talking about methods, poppers or khuns, when it would have been better, that is more convenient, do like that smart elite, truly a few billion enlightened people, who have donated their deltoitis to vaccine trials in order to be able to see with their own eyes through to the real of the adverse events: “So it is with many things, the shared thoughts of the human race influence what we do. But we should be aware they are commonly-agreed illusions, and we should get into the habit of seeing through to the real”

    Here my heart melts when you speak of the prize for those who have the courage and humility to conform to your common sense: “When we finally get to the real and we stop telling ourselves stories, what comes to the fore is love, kindness, generosity, even keeled ness. If instead of projecting our misconceptions onto others we can credit them with the good qualities we come to see, the world will become a more loving place.”

    I will reflect on your words for a long time, on the other side of the wall of conformity that divides us.

    • Lokesh says:

      ‘deltoitis’ – Oh oh, Veet has been checking out his dictionary again. The dictionary that is so unique it has the word ‘deltoitis’ in it, because most dictionaries don’t contain the word. That does not matter, though. What matters is that Veet gives a demonstration of his intellectual prowess.

      Meanwhile, the Freudian slips continue. Some more cucumbers and a blow job.

      ‘Trust in existence’ is old sannyas speak and means…well, what exactly does it mean? Mother Nature is surely an integral part of existence and although wild and incomparably beautiful she can be a heartless bitch at times…think lions bringing down and tearing apart a gazelle. Not much compassion there. She certainly does not appear to be trustworthy.

      What exactly Veet is talking about is none too clear but it certainly does not sound good. He concludes, “I will reflect on your words for a long time, on the other side of the wall of conformity that divides us.” Ehm…well…yes, Veet, carry on up the Tiber. Life is full of surprises. You can trust in that.

      • dominic says:

        An appropriate image, Lokesh.

        I think Veet is trying to teach us one of the Buddha’s four noble truths. If you’re not sure that life is suffering, just try reading one of his posts.

        As for NP, all I hear him saying is, “Why can’t we all just get along?”, just like these two….

        • Lokesh says:

          Yes, indeed, Dominic, this photo says many things.

          I suppose, in a way, you only understand others to the extent that you understand yourself…a cliche perhaps, but nonetheless true.

          Who would have guessed that those two guys would one day be facing off in a very messy confrontation, while the world stayed home and watched the show on TV.

          • dominic says:

            Would make a great ‘Guru Heist’ series too one day, if they can find a young Ben Kingsley and slumdog Freida Pinto, to play the leads. It’s got all the hallmarks of a nail-biting thriller, sex, drugs, rock ‘n roll, bioterrorism, mind control, betrayal, utopia/dystopia, you name it, it’s got it!

        • Nityaprem says:

          I don’t like to reply to posts that are in essence abusive, on the general principle of “don’t feed the fire, and it will go out by itself.”

          But you’re right, dominic, that hateful speech has proven a more powerful driver of the internet than even cat pictures. People feel compelled to respond by adding even more hateful speech, until the whole thing becomes a mud-slinging match.

          The problem is, there are two fundamentally different stances with respect to Osho here. The devotees and the ex-sannyasins. When they both supply viewpoints about something in a calm way, the site works beautifully, but when they don’t it’s like two tribes of warring monkeys.

          MOD:
          That’s why SN decided to severely restrict such abuse and why much of the recent conflicts will soon be deleted.

          • dominic says:

            From my point of view, NP, there is a difference between playful satire, ‘creative fun’, which has been a feature and positive of SN for some time, and ‘charged’ speech, maybe call it ‘hateful’, like a dog with a bone, which comes with a different energy and often grosser language, although satire without the ‘ire’ part can feed off it nicely, it is after all a long and proud tradition which distinguishes British humour. It certainly makes for a more lively forum. Playfulness and laughter being a big part of the Osho vibe.

            I would also caution against simple box-like categories like sannyasin and ex-sannyasin, which seem a little dated now and cult-like.

            In any case, all tastes need to be catered for and everything is nuanced and open to subjective interpretation. People like yourself with a more serious bent might not enjoy the satire, irony, caricature, etc. so much, it’s a fine line, and in the hands of the Gods or should I say Mods. May they be blessed with wisdom in these matters.

          • NP, even sugarcoating the nature of the fighting here doesn’t help put out the fire, assuming you don’t like burning Osho books, unlike your advaita master who seeks out students for his empty rooms during his lectures, and for the his friend who has to promote his books or paintings (beautiful the second ones, imv).

            Sannyasins here are called dummies, village idiot, monkey, etc.

            I’ve already said, as long as “all sannyasins are welcome” is written on the gate, and if it’s not a ‘Dinner Game; trap, with all the implied arrogance of whoever may have devised it, it will seem strange to me that that those who claim to have left sannyas, full- or part-time, using aliases or not, continue, after years, to come here to give their little lectures on the many alternative options available and put on trial those who still do not decide to do like them.

            To me, at best, their attempt appears ridiculous and when they insist on the technique of ‘creating’ the stupid of the moment, the crazy of the moment, the rude of the moment or the little compassionate of the moment only as a polemic basis to attack Osho through his words, well, then it is natural to give them my personal welcome…with my character, linguistic, cultural, etc. limitations.

            I wonder if it ever happened here that a former sannyasin began by saying: “I envy your sense of gratitude that continues to this day, this implies that you have received a lot in your spiritual path, this also implies that perhaps I should ask myself why I have not received enough.”

            It would be nice, I think, not only for me, to share on these relational bases.

  28. Lokesh says:

    Grannyji says, “Comics are just mirrors. People can either laugh at the reflection or be disgusted by it.”

    • dominic says:

      We are truly blessed by Grannyji’s unlimited wisdom and penetrating Shakti!

      Anyone not chaste enough, or with any doubts of her timeless divinity, is bound to be the loser and remain mired in Kali Yuga, incapable of enlightenment!

      Sri sri Grannyji! Jai Durga Maa!

  29. Btw, can someone explain to me what is there to get excited about if we live a reality that we call “simulation”, “illusion” or “maya”?

    Ahm, ok, science said it, the same as experimental genetic serums, I guess.

  30. Lokesh says:

    NP says, “The problem is, there are two fundamentally different stances with respect to Osho here. The devotees and the ex-sannyasins. When they both supply viewpoints about something in a calm way, the site works beautifully, but when they don’t it’s like two tribes of warring monkeys.”

    Okay, that is clear enough. What is not clear is what, in NP’s mind, constitutes who or what is a devotee and who or what is an ex-sannyasin?

    So, NP, for the benefit of other readers and the unenlightened like myself, how do you judge who is a devotee, and more importantly how do you determine and define who is an ex-sannyasin?

    Over the years on SN, I have had various people call me an ex-sannyasin, as if it is a failure on my part, as I have missed Osho’s message or some such bullshit. Writers like Satchit periodically come up with this apparent slur, mistakenly believing they are getting one over me. Such thinking belongs to a cultish mentality and people lacking intelligence.

    What is also curious is that the ones who describe me as an ex-sannyasin often had little or no personal contact with Osho in their life, whereas for some years I talked to Osho personally, often twice a week. This does not make me feel special in any way, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time. These things happen. There is nothing there to feel big-headed about, because if you feel egotistical about such things you really did miss where Osho was at. Yet here are these fools believing I somehow managed to miss Osho’s message, while they, of course, get it 100%. It is a joke. Not very funny but a joke is the best way to describe the situation.

    Osho often said he was a gate, which implies that he was something to be passed through. Yet, here are these chumps worshipping the gate, while remaining ignorant of what lies beyond it, and not only that, they are self-righteous about their worshipping something that is static…they are not going anywhere, they are stuck. You know, the holier-than-thou number. And if one was fortunate enough to pass through the gate one gets put down for it. It is an obvious contradiction.
    So, NP, please explain what you are talking about.

    As Osho was heard to say, “There is no goal, there is only a beautiful pilgrimage. Make the most of it – outwardly and inwardly. Have all possible experiences, and move on.”
    I’ve moved on. Does that make me an ex-sannyasin?

    • satchit says:

      Oh yeah, tears are coming to my eyes because poor Lokesh
      is called “ex-sannyasin”.

      How do you call others? “Idiots” “parrots” “sheep”. People who are “stuck” and have not moved on like you.

      Seems you have the holier-than-thou number.

      Enough for now.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Lokesh said: “Osho often said he was a gate… Yet here are the chumps worshipping the gate and remaining ignorant of whats beyond.”

      Well, maybe you are right and all sannyasins are clinging on to the past while not getting on with things. Osho has left the body, and he is no longer here to shower us with his presence. It was just a convenient turn of phrase to typify the combatants here. If you feel it doesn’t fit you, I won’t force anything on you.

      But in fact I am sad that orange-clad meditators are no longer operating Zorba the Buddha restaurants and discotheques and serving fruit juice to the dancers. It’s good to spend some of your life standing for something, even if that’s only that the spiritual life can be filled with dance and celebration.

      Is there still such a thing as sannyas today? Thinking on it now, I believe yes. Once you are initiated as one who is intent on living the holy life, it depends on your intention, you can drop it or you can continue, and I think it was Papaji who said “every guru is like your one true guru”, you don’t even have to stay with one guru.

      You still partake of entheogens once in a while to set you straight, and release music featuring clips of Osho’s voice, I think there still is some feeling there, although maybe in your eyes the height of Osho’s pedestal has rather shrunk and you’re done with all gurus except the inner one. Its all part of the great journey, in my eyes.

      • Nityaprem says:

        Anyway, figuring out what Osho’s message was, among the many lectures, anecdotes and jokes, is challenging enough. Determining who has missed what, however, is a real mine-field.

        I don’t think anyone can accuse anyone else of “not being a true sannyasin” or of “missing the message”…if you take initiation, you’ve been a sannyasin, and if you drop it again it is your business. You obviously got what you were looking for if you decided to get out.

        But Osho said some crazy things. Have all possible experiences? Who would want to do that, a good half of them are going to range from unpleasant to atrociously painful.

    • swamishanti says:

      Lokesh blurted out:

      “Over the years on SN, I have had various people call me an ex-sannyasin, as if it is a failure on my part, as I have missed Osho’s message or some such bullshit. Idiots like Satchit periodically come up with this apparent slur, mistakenly believing they are getting one over me. Such thinking belongs to a cultish mentality and people lacking intelligence.

      What is also curious is that the ones who describe me as an ex-sannyasin often had little or no personal contact with Osho in their life, whereas for some years I talked to Osho personally, often twice a week. This does not make me feel special in any way, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time.”

      Over the years here, Lokesh, you often came out with this line of pride of “sitting in front of Osho for seven years” from back in Pune One, as if in fact it meant something incredibly special.
      The fact is it meant nothing much at all, thousands of people sat close to Osho, some later came away doubting.

      Most never connected with him inwardly. This is only natural that it would be this way. But many still trust and get a lot out of his teachings.

      It wasn’t Osho’s ‘message’ as such that you missed, yet you missed a heart connection with Osho, and that is why you have been continuously telling people on this site who come on here that they are “deluded”, “gullible” etc.

      “Osho often said he was a gate, which implies that he was something to be passed through. Yet, here are these chumps worshipping the gate, while remaining ignorant of what lies beyond it, and not only that, they are self-righteous about their worshipping something that is static…they are not going anywhere, they are stuck. You know, the holier-than-thou number.”

      You seem like an ‘ex-sannyasin’ who considers himself anove Sannyas, yet you are unwilling to let go – of the gate.

      Others passed through the gate, you are hanging onto the gate, posturing yourself as superior to others. Convincing yourself.

      At least on this site.

      Reply tonight if you like but please don’t get up tommorow morning with
      “Shanti said…” – because I will be having a break from the site for a few days.

      • Thank you, Swamishanti, after the recent sensational revelations this further, and I hope definitive, clarification about the role played by Lokesh in this forum is an opportunity to start anew together towards a new phase, distinguishing between a hierarchy based on the authority of the strongest in cynicism and another one based on the estimability of those who consider their own kind not a means but an end.

      • swamishanti says:

        So, the deep state has recently removed certain comments and murdered Swamishanti and replaced him with another version. No, not really, it’s still the same SS here.

        I deleted a couple of comment’s last week as I was away on business and now they will be restored:

        @ Veet Francesco on 6th Jan said:

        Klaus, I’m not the stickler if every now and then I point out to some troll who writes in this forum that to attract other people’s attention here is needed to have at least some original argument.

        If, in addition to having no arguments, someone indulges in gratuitous judgments with the attitude of bullies, it seems to me right to give some feedback that reinforces their principle of reality, starting from their aporias and contradictions.

        Could I ever tell a rose that smells like a rose that it’s an asshole? Well, since you wouldn’t judge me reactive that I call a “rose” a “rose” then it should also apply when I call dominic an asshole, who being a troll can only be pleased and laugh at all the shit he manages to pull out of my guts.

        When the Moderator with a few moves wants to restore the symmetry between those who provoke without putting their heart and face into what they write and who, instead, putting their heart and face into it, has the responsibility to expose themselves, shit included, you will see that these diatribes about “who has the longer penis?” will finish.

        But from what I smell, this site has guidelines already traced, for years, by people who have left their body; now the intellectual legacy remained in a few hands and I don’t think it’s easy to depart from a management that cannot but take into account the affective value that the shape of this virtual space returns.

        Another asymmetry, and another reason for preserving the form and content of the forum, are the non-virtual relationships (friendships, direct or indirect acquaintances) that I imagine exist among the older SN visitors, from which those who are cut off have a further disadvantage in communication that could sometimes result in frustration.

        I have found that the game of picking out the village idiot from time to time and bringing him to a boil point, as well as causing amusement in some of the old folks, it encourages paternalism and arrogance in a vicious circle where people like Lokesh or Frank are still here to play their role while all the other sannyasins disappear after a while without saying goodbye.

        I don’t have time and money for tv series, but if you can watch the movie ‘The Dinner Game’.

        • swamishanti says:

          I then replied to Veet:

          Submitted on 2023/01/06 at 7:03 pm

          @Veet: “Klaus, I’m not the stickler if every now and then I point out to some troll who writes in this forum that to attract other people’s attention here is needed to have at least some original argument.”

          “I have found that the game of picking out the village idiot from time to time and bringing him to a boil point, as well as causing amusement in some of the old folks, it encourages paternalism and arrogance, in a vicious circle where people like Lokesh or Frank are still here to play their role while all the other sannyasins disappear after a while without saying goodbye.”

          It’s a bit of a strange one, Veet, because although the ‘all sannyasins welcome’ banner was out up on the site by Dharmen sometime around 2011, many sannyasins were banned by him and it did gradually become less welcoming, as you point to sannyasins being named ‘delusional’, ‘dummies’, ‘sheep’, ‘imagining’ ‘brainwashed’, etc.

          This led to most sannyasins ignoring the site after some time.

          The strange thing is that Parmartha gave the two with most aggressive anti-Sannyas sentiments, who believed they were ‘out of a cult’ more power than the other writers here.

          Their posts went on first, bypassing moderation, I only found this out recently. That means they are always at the top of the page. Frank, who is similar to Jane Stork in some ways.
          “Gooday, mate. The feds offered me a deal to let me off for twenty years in the can if I wrote a shitty book slandering Osho, and I got nothing out of Osho at all, I’ve no consciousness, and now I’ve convinced myself that it’s all in your mind, it was all a con and and everyone else is gullible! Now I’ve gone back into the dream and joined an anti-cult group! Fahkin’ fair dinkum, cobber.” *

          So Parmartha wanted that kind of vibe on the site. Strange but true.

          MOD:
          Swamishanti, Parmartha allowed Frank and Lokesh to put up posts before moderation primarily for the simple reason that at the time they required little or no moderation, plus the fact that he regarded their posts as articulate, often very amusing, interesting and challenging*, in other words of a generally higher quality than those of most other contributors. You too, of course, despite being a severe critic of SN, have since been accorded the same privilege (although your posts can tend to require a bit more moderation and we’d appreciate you informing us when you intend to delete one).

          As well as being a committed sannyasin, who loved and was grateful to Osho for all that he received, Parmartha also respected individual freedom and the right of all, no matter what their status, to express their experience and views in a publically accessible forum, which he and the two other SN co-founders regarded as a vital facility in the light of the failures in Oregon, which were characterised by a total lack of such democratic values.

          That was the background to the creation of this site. It was never meant to be a vehicle for pushing any ‘official’ or ‘unofficial’ line, it was meant to be a place for all voices to be heard, including ‘dissenting’ ones – and yours, of course, if you’re so inclined.

          Dharmen and Parmartha did at times ban people due to repeatedly abusive comments, but to say there were “many” such instances is an exaggeration, I think. However, levels of abuse did get out of hand several years ago, which is why posts began to be more strictly monitored.

          By the way, you also, in a previous post, claimed there used to be “thousands” accessing the site, which I suggest might be stretching the numbers way too far. Where did you get those figures from?

          *You quote this paragraph of Frank’s judging it to be not the “kind of vibe” that should be on this site, failing to see that it’s simply a send-up, a comic exaggeration of a certain mentality, written to entertain.

          • swamishanti says:

            Veet replied to my comment:

            2023/01/06 at 10:42 pm | In reply to swamishanti.

            Delicate topic censorship/moderation, Swamishanti, I don’t know much about the legal aspects of managing a forum, but I know that it is not legal to write everything that comes to the mind, even if in some cases it could be ethical to do so.

            Perhaps there may have been non-virtual consequences to the forum battles, such as threatening phone calls or attempts to continue the fights in person.

            If what you write were true, my first thought is that I find it hard to imagine Parmartha such an asshole, but there would be so many implications to focus on that I prefer to wait to read the point of view of those directly involved still active here.

            I just reflect on the likelihood of many alternative hypotheses to that of a forum created by people who sold Osho for some personal advantage, such for someone as being able to reintegrate into society with a respectable job, or to conduct an experiment/research, commissioned by others or not, about ‘psychosects’

            Or perhaps Parmartha and his cronies had realized that Osho was a madman who would lead disciples to become dangerous to themselves or to others.

            So the basic idea, which I have already expressed, was to offer a showcase that represented the Osho disciples as sub-humans and those who have distanced themselve from him as intelligent people, with a sense of humour, rigorously British, and successful..Regarding the second ones, it remains to be seen whether they are idiots who have been manipulated for this purpose or greedy Scots.

            I think the idea is valid, that is, effective, Osho has been metabolized by the mainstream and made a caricature.

            In Italy it is on the front page of newspapers and televisions with satirical photos with captions in Roman dialect called “The most beautiful phrases of Osho”, or in the most popular television quiz with the imitation of the conductor Paolo Bonolis calling himself “Oshobuco” (ossobuco is a popular recipe ) what is missing to make a sect less attractive to its followers or potentially such? A bunch of angry monkeys throwing excrement.

            @MOD:
            If this is true, after years of honourable work as a laboratory monkey I claim my share of the pie, willing to come and take it in London, Cambridge or some Spanish island.

  31. Lokesh says:

    Veet, you sound like you are in the midst of some kind of crisis.

    Your comments are so all over the shop I would not know where to begin starting to respond to them. For someone who claims to be coming from his heart, you sound like a head case.

    All this waffle about attacks and fights is all in your mind.

    • Thanks, Lokesh, get well soon too, it was a busy day, even for me.

      My legs are contracted like wood, tonight I played my second match of soccer at 5 after 8 months on the truck, maybe I should have waited a few more days to recover from last Monday’s match, maybe I should alternate with a weekly session in the swimming pool.

      Stop insulting Satchit, he doesn’t react the way I do, you’ll hurt yourself, your nerves already seem more tense than the muscles in my legs.

  32. I am considering writing, and/or inviting all of you to do so, about what may be the biographical, intellectual or religious elements that make Osho a controversial Master.

    It is also interesting to distinguish “controversial” in the eyes of those who have known Osho:
    1) in a physically close manner
    2) through the books of him or sannyasins
    3) through the media
    4) any other categories, mixes etc.

    To evaluate at a later stage whether the individual controversial elements may coincide between the three social categories.

    Personally, my list (I belong to the second category) would see at the first point the replacement of the loving secretary Laxmi with Sheela, and above all with reason, if true, of a familistic nature.

    If Osho is a devil, this for me could be the detail that proves it, consequently hell would be my ideal environment, dominic is warned.

    https://www.koimoi.com/television/after-maa-anand-sheela-oshos-first-secretary-maa-yoga-laxmi-to-get-a-web-series/

    • Nityaprem says:

      In response to Veet’s question. “what makes Osho a controversial master?”

      You’re going to get a few different responses I think ;)

      For me, a lot of the things that are going to matter for the mainstream don’t really make me raise an eyebrow — the Rolls-Royces, the crazy watches, the “bio-terrorism”. These things are peripheral.

      For me what matters were other things. The cutting remarks and insults addressed to Morarji Desai, Ronald Reagan, communism and so on. These were not devices, it was like his mind ran away with him. The remarks about his sex life, talking about having had sex with hundreds of women. Erin’s story. The courting of controversy in many ways. These things I wouldn’t expect from an enlightened master living in bliss.

      Also his discourses, thousands of lectures talking about the spirituality of other traditions. Valuable to provide a different perspective on them, but not really deep explorations. Learning about Buddhism I got more from The Teachings of Ajahn Chah than from Osho’s many books. It’s like Osho appreciated the poetry of other traditions, without always getting to the essence. There is more to learn than is told in Osho’s discourses, although you can easily get swamped by them.

      All things considered, I find it very hard to say anything sensible about his enlightenment. I have a special fondness for him, he taught me many things.

      • Lokesh says:

        In response to Veet’s question “what makes Osho a controversial master?”
        I’ll hazard a guess and say, his love of chappatis.

        • But he was an Indian and you are Scottish, Lokesh – what am I supposed to say when I hear that Osho has snubbed the tasty spaghetti lovingly cooked for him by Sarjano?

          But on the subject of diet, it seems to me more relevant to have read in Shunyo’s book that Osho drank a lot of diet coke.

          • Lokesh says:

            Like Osho, I also used to occasionally drink Diet Coke. When I realized it was not helping me on my journey to enlightenment, I dropped it. Perhaps I needed to drink more like Osho did, as in, every day. Somehow the idea of contaminating my earth suit with Aspartame, an odourless powder that is white and is approximately 200 times sweeter than sugar, put me off drinking it even if it slowed up my enlightenment process. For some time, it was rumoured that Osho died from an overdose of Aspartame. I don’t believe that but I do believe that his intake of Diet Coke might have helped to make him a very sweet man.

      • Thanks, Nityaprem, for the feedback, interesting that for you the semantic/linguistic aspect of his teaching prevails, because if I remember correctly, even if you were a child, you belong to the first category listed by me, no mention of the fact that his communication can be related to the field or context in which those words were said.

        • Nityaprem says:

          Yes, there is always context. Some of this only came later to me, when I was in my forties and listening to his lectures in my flat high up overlooking the North Sea. But if you compare some of Osho’s lectures where he is disparaging of politicians and prime ministers, it occurs to me that in all my reading and listening to other enlightened masters teaching, I have never come across a word of criticism. At most they’ll say, the world is illusion, or, it’s the nature of samsara.

          When I was in the Buddha Hall in Rajneeshpuram or close to him in India, I was blown away by his presence, this tremendously clean, loving, friendly energy, like staring into the full moon on an exceptionally clear night. I didn’t really take in everything he said.

          But over the last ten years I have listened to something close to half of all his lectures, certainly very many. I’ve come across some gems and new insights, many jokes. In the end, that hypnotic joy in his voice kind of went away, and I can now listen to a discourse without getting carried away by it. I’m still kind of digesting what that means to me.

          In any case, lately I haven’t been listening to discourses, but I have been listening more to Samaneri Jayasera’s Youtube channel. She provides spoken sections of texts by all kinds of enlightened masters, from Ramana Maharshi to Krishnamurti to Longchenpa and Padmasambhava. It’s a wonderful basis of comparison of Osho to his peers, and it has done me a lot of good.

          • NP, I too experienced a bit of cognitive dissonance reading insults and judgments addressed to political or religious personalities, although being public figures, with honours and few burdens, nobody was hurt…apart from my ideal investment in those characters. Maybe just devices, no less effective than watches and RRs.

            My relationship with Osho began with his words and their power to create intellectual gaps through which flashes of eternity reached me, where everything was available to my attention, joy, melancholy, leaving me with the awareness that no drop of the sea gets lost…smells of soups and colours of childhood toys, thoughts and emotions of days I thought were useless…now all wrapped up in a light of eternal present.

            But the key to understanding Osho’s words were people like you, whom I hugged, heard talk and sing, watched dance, laugh and cry.

            This doesn’t mean that the heart, including mine, can’t become hard as stone, even in the presence of a source of love.

            This is my debt to the Sangha, I try to be worthy of it; when I can’t, hitting rock bottom, and I don’t want to dig, I read at random among his speeches, I no longer have any intellectual interest in discovering hidden truths perhaps said by others, alive or not.

            My time as an almost sixty-year-old, like Gianluca, seems to me less and less than the time necessary to create the social and political conditions for a new season of sharing that ecstasy.

            Instead, today, imv, fear is taking over. I am saddened by the scarcity of resources that cuts off the current younger generations from the opportunities that I have partly enjoyed, and I agree with Osho that we shouldn’t talk about meditation to those who struggle to eat.

            Today it is even worse, the poor do not know they are so, filled with junk food, then they were
            induced in false needs, modelled on prototypes of future humanity, transhuman.

            The political game was to replace social rights with civil ones: homosexual marriages are possible but they must be celebrated with dried figs.

            I’m curious what Osho would have said about the disappearance of heterosexuals on television.

            • Nityaprem says:

              That is one of the overwhelming things I remember of the communes, that people were happy, glad to be in a place where they could celebrate. Even work was with a great togetherness.

              The closest I’ve found to that outside sannyas places was Club Lite in Amsterdam, a place where people would come to dance barefoot, drinking only water. Lots of stalls with chocolate and new age things.

              But even that didn’t have so much of a spiritual vibe, although it was a good place. Learning to celebrate is an important lesson.

          • Nityprem said:
            “In the end, that hypnotic joy in his voice kind of went away, and I can now listen to a discourse without getting carried away by it. I’m still kind of digesting what that means to me.”

            The part of “not getting carried away by it” speaks of clarity and seeing.
            So many levels to digest, too.

            All thumbs up here!

            • Nityaprem says:

              Thanks, Klaus. For a long time, my internal response to hearing Osho’s voice was just “Osho, Osho, Osho, yeah, yeah, yeah” a kind of mindless chant of happiness and encouragement.

              It’s been only the last few years that I’ve been listening more critically to what he actually says. It’s surprising how often the point of a lecture is just a few sentences delivered somewhere towards the end, sotto voce.

      • satchit says:

        NP wrote:

        “It’s like Osho appreciated the poetry of other traditions, without always getting to the essence.”

        Fact is, Osho was the Essence.

        Certainly one can have opinions about all and everything. What do you think ‘Bhagwan’ means?

        • Nityaprem says:

          Was he the essence, or did he borrow the essence? All the other traditions which he touched on he would take a small fragment, a short sutra or a poem, and he would tell anecdotes around it and generally talk, and often diverge significantly from the subject. It was like he took a piece of writing to comment on, but also as general inspiration.

          In studying Buddhism I’ve found a lot more depth than Osho ever discussed. He certainly talked enough about it, but I’ve not yet come across a clear discussion of the Four Noble Truths, for example, which was probably the Buddha’s most significant teaching.

          • satchit says:

            NP, Osho did not discuss the Noble Truths because he was not a scholar.

            He put himself, his beingness, in the focus. The content of his teaching was not so relevant. At the most it was part of the seduction.

          • dominic says:

            No doubt it can be fascinating to listen to, study, compare, research, think metaphysical thoughts about, discuss, memorise, compare gurus, travel to exotic locations, wear holy clothing, get initiated, bow down to the Buddha, chant some gaccamis, make your home into a mini-temple of your journey’s icons, but what are you really looking for?

            Why, your Self, of course.

            If you miss the fundamental, the rest is eventually an entertaining but exhausting merry-go-round.
            Will you find yourself in thought, and all of its permutations of memory, desire, story?

            What is already here, before seeking dangles a holy carrot before the donkey’s eyes, and makes him work hard for what he already has?

            • Nityaprem says:

              All these gurus have different goals which they present for potential followers to sample. It’s something to be wary of, letting other people set goals for you.

              But you don’t have to have some great goal. Just sitting and being content to just sit, doing nothing but just being, is already a meditation which brings you closer.

              Krishnamurti said, truth is a pathless land. It resonates with me, I feel that paths are knowledge and so belong with the mind. Being aware of the mind, witnessing, is a good one.

              • Lokesh says:

                Yes, and Osho kept shifting the goalposts.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Absolutely he did, Lokesh. And he often muddied the waters like in ‘The Book of Secrets’ where he presents 112 meditation methods, where just a few will suffice.

                  With every tradition that he would discuss, he would talk positively about that tradition’s goal. When talking about the Sufis, it was reaching to God through the heart. When talking about Zen, it would be no-mind. And so it goes on.

                  It’s like the parable of the digger who gets told by his wand in a hundred different places, there is water here. So he starts digging a hundred times, but each time gets distracted by the next place. In the end he had a hundred shallow dry wells, whereas if he had just dug deeply in one place he would have found water.

                  So it makes me glad to see that at the end of his teaching he settled down to just talking about Zen. Unfortunately I wasn’t there for that.

                • satchit says:

                  “And he often muddied the waters like in ‘The Book of Secrets’ where he presents 112 meditation methods, where just a few will suffice.”

                  Here you missed it, NP?
                  Osho was not a meditation teacher.

                  He played the Master-disciple game.
                  And if you do this you have to attract people.

                  This he did by his books or other sannyasins who had the vibe.

                  He called himself “storyteller”.

              • dominic says:

                Who or what is being aware of the mind?

          • NP, in your experience in contact with different communities and traditions what are the points of contact and differences with the Sangha where you grew up?

            I am thinking above all of social aspects such as the role and form of the celebration, the seriousness or playfulness of the atmosphere, the role of the hierarchy, with its uses and possible abuses…

            I also wonder about the management of any hermeneutical controversies, if the whole community is invited to participate or if, on the contrary, there are rigidities due to roles.

            In Osho’s world, imv, a source of controversy, after the Ranch, and excluding this harmonious virtual place, can be represented by the specificity of communities such as that of Sedona and that of the Hum. in Holland. I didn’t live in Sedona, just read ‘The Alchemy of Transformation’ by Wadud and Waduda, and did the power group with Alvina, both good experiences, I lived in Holland for a few months. Sedona gives me the idea that it had to do with esotericism, while Humaniversity with therapy, differing from my ideal model, Pune Two (90-97) and Miasto (10 years ago my last visit, damn euro currency and bloody globalization).

            If in Sedona I imagined the centrality of Kavisha comparable to the centrality of Veeresh’s role in Holland, such as to overshadow Osho, starting with his meditation techniques, then it remains to be understood whether these different approaches can represent an enrichment and deepening of Osho’s vision or, conversely, a dispersion and pollution of his message. This, for me, is controversial.

            • Nityaprem says:

              I haven’t been exploring the current sannyas communities very much, so don’t know much about them. I’ve visited a number of sannyas friends in their homes, but that’s about it.

              The last ten years or so I chose to focus on the inner world, meditating, listening to discourses and studying Buddhism. Sometimes walking on the beach. It’s been good for me.

            • Lokesh says:

              Hermeneutical controversies? Veet is not the only one wondering about hermeneutical controversies. Grandadaji is also wondering about hermeneutical controversies.

              Grandadaji’s new book, ‘Gimme a Fuckin’ Break, Jimmy’, opens with the following:
              “Hermeneutics is defined as the combination of exegesis (what the text meant) and contextualization (how it applies). The latter has both a personal and a corporate dimension, as reflected in private devotions and public preaching. The major thesis of the book is that valid hermeneutics involves a spiral from text to context, from meaning to significance. One repeatedly tests one’s pre-understandings by detailed interaction with the text, which then modifies one’s interpretation, which then is again submitted to the text (and to the bar of other opinions within the sannyas and scholarly communities), and so on. Two appendices defend the possibility of equating the meaning of an Osho text with the intention of recovering that meaning of the text in the first place.”

  33. Lokesh says:

    Grannyji says, “Your time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of others’ opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition.”

  34. Lokesh says:

    Grannyji’s granddaughter, here photographed swallowing a kilo of powdered marijuana, says, “You idiots, time is limited, so don’t waste it living someone else’s life. Don’t be trapped by dogma – which is what Veet is doing by living with the results of other people’s thinking. Don’t let the noise of Satchit’s puerile one-liners drown out your own inner voice. And most important, don’t believe a word Shanti says and have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. If you meet a sheep on the path kill it. Mutton chops for all the family.”

  35. Lokesh says:

    Veet says, “I wondered if it was possible that Parmartha was such an asshole, and what was the reason: discrediting sannyasins to discredit Osho? And if so, for money or for just the belief that Osho is dangerous to the sannyasins and to others.”

    A preposterous remark, to say the least.

    Veet never had the pleasure of meeting Parmartha, or Osho for that matter. So, just for the record, I can honestly say that Parmartha was a beautiful man. His life made sense to me and I really appreciated the fact that he worked with Iranian political exiles, teaching them how to garden etc. His reasons for helping found SN were all good and he put his heart into it in true sannyasin style.

    SN welcomes all sannyasins. Veet’s recent comments read like a litany of complaints, peppered with absurd conspiracy theories. This begs the question if Veet does not like what is going on here, why does he not just stop visiting the site? Nobody forced him to come here. He is as welcome to leave as he is to enter.

    Veet talks about “deepening the theme of Osho’s vision and Sangha.”
    Osho’s vision? What does Veet know about Osho’s vision? Look at Veet’s vision and you might well presume he needs specs. Half the time I doubt anyone has a clue what the man is talking about. His vision of Osho is based on what he has read and seen on vids, which results in his Osho vision being composed of half-baked ideas and projections that have little or nothing to do with Osho, except for pinning Osho’s name to them.

    Veet appears to imagine himself in some sort of spiritual Armaggedon, where he battles and fights with imaginary enemies, feeling in his misguided heart that if he does not Osho’s vision will lie in tatters. Delusional does not quite sum his situation up.

    Osho’s vision has often been spoken of on this site. From what I can guage, the basis of that vision is to lead a meditative life. Apart from that, the interpretations of that vision are as multifaceted as the number of people who actually met Osho. In other words, it is open to interpretation. In Veet’s case, I’d say he needs to lighten up and develop his sense of humour. SN is a good place to do that.

    MOD:
    Also see my response to Veet, below his post (11.38pm, Saturday, January 7)

    • Nityaprem says:

      Lokesh said “From what I can guage, the basis of that vision is to lead a meditative life.”

      Half of his vision for the new man, the Zorba the Buddha. To celebrate life, and also be meditative. But yes, as many interpretations as there are people who’ve listened to the discourses.

    • dominic says:

      “I’d say he needs to lighten up and develop his sense of humour.”

      Just to develop some sense would be a great start!
      He surely needs a fundalini awakening, but trying to herd sheep from darkness to light is a thankless task. His superpower seems to be to talk a lot and say nothing.

      It is a testament to dear Parmartha’s legacy that such deranged slurs are granted through his moderating medium.

      • Now, I do not really know what to write.
        So much negativity shuts me down.
        Everything I try to put down sounds wrong…

        It is a learning thing. Imv. Challenging.
        A test of the solidity of one’s ‘views’ and the ground one is standing on. A sharing. A pointing out of the pitfalls of worship and the spiritual path in general.
        And specifically of the pitfalls in our specialised guru group.

        “My sannyasness got hurt.”
        How does this work?

        Life goes on.

        • Careful, Prasanto, this is the wrong place to show sheep’s throat.

          Although it is a moment of respite, since someone here has to revise something of their belief system, unable to decide, after the dichotomy on which his wolfish approach is based has been revealed: spiritual / devotional love towards a master vs human love towards the memory of a friend.

        • Nityaprem says:

          Yes, Klaus, the negativity doesn’t inspire me very much either. I do feel sannyas is a personal thing, how you give detail to what it means to you.

          According to Osho a meditative life and joy and love and laughter are what it means. While according to the Hindus it’s one who renounces the normal life for a holy life away from family, home and work.

          But you take initiation from Osho. Now that he has left the body, it is up to you to determine how to guide yourself, what kind of a sannyasin to be. What does the holy life mean to you these days?

      • Nityaprem says:

        Heehee, “a fundalini awakening”, hilarious. Maybe there should be a corresponding meditation.

  36. My hypothesis (bullying, arrogance, cynicism, need to avoid one’s own vulnerability, pleasure in laughing at the expense of others, discrediting Osho through discrediting his devotees, etc.), about the possible reasons for the conflicts and clashes here, has been countered by the thesis that instead, creating the problems would be caused by the unjustified seriousness due to the devotional approach.

    In the Italian wikipedia page the word “devotion” is described as follows: “…a strong feeling and a consequent attitude of love felt by the human being towards God, or a transcendental love. Although it is a spiritual love, it is not comparable to earthly ties, it can manifest itself on the physical plane with experiences of a mystical or ecstatic type.”
    Unfortunately, the page in English does not yet exist.

    A second meaning is this: “Among the ancient Romans, the consecration to the gods (Lat. devotio ) of specific people or things carried out with the intention of averting a grave danger from the community”.

    For Catholics devotion is: “religious practice to God or to the Virgin Mary or to a saint. Here devotion essentially becomes a strong feeling of spiritual, not physical, love of the devotee towards the object of devotion… In Catholicism devotions are also forms of prayer that take place outside the official liturgy of the Mass and the liturgy of the hours.While the faithful are required to participate in the liturgy, devotions are strictly optional, though highly recommended, and by canon law must take place outside the liturgy so as not to create confusion. In the Latin Rite, well-known devotions include the Rosary, the Via Crucis, the Lectio Divina and the Angelus.”. This was my religious/devotional practice before Osho.

    In the Anglo-Saxon world (and especially in North America) the term devotion is used: “To indicate various related activities within the Christian church. More frequently, this term refers to a period of free time used to study the Bible and pray, in an effort to build a stronger spiritual relationship with God. These periods of time are spent alone or with a small group of people.”

    In Hinduism the devotional practice is called: “Bhakti Yoga is precisely the way of Bhakti, it is union with God through intense love and deep devotion. This Yoga (whose essence could be summed up in the expression Loving for love of love) among all is the simplest and most direct, and is aimed at the majority of human beings precisely because of its ease of implementation, since it does not require strong intellectual abilities or particular skills.Bhakti Yoga is nothing but intense love for God: since He is the embodiment of love, the easiest way to reach Him is to love Him”.

    In Buddhism, devotion is described as follows: “In the most common sense it assumes the meaning of “dedicate”, “pay homage”, “have full trust”, “praise to”. The object of devotion varies: one can be devoted to the Buddha, to a lama, to a teaching. It is an attitude of openness towards one’s master, towards the law, in general towards life itself to prepare it to welcome the truth, overcome difficulties, reach successive stages of awareness and understanding”.

    Before I’m shot by a firing squad of flabby asses, throwing cucumbers without using their hands, can I know what fault I should die of?

    • Lokesh says:

      Veet enquires, “Can I know what fault I should die of?”
      Erm….boring the readers on SN with comments nobody is interested in?
      Imagining you are giving voice to the faceless multitude of sannyasins you mistakenly believe yourself to represent, when in fact your views are yours alone?

      Mind you, I’m only guessing. Such questions should actually be delivered to Shanti because he is clairvoyant.

    • dominic says:

      Don’t sell yourself short, Veet, that would be ‘faults’, plural. Seems you swallowed a Wikipedia page then heaved it up for a Sunday sermon. As a member of the ramblers club, why say in two sentences what can be said in fifty?

      Still, it reveals your attraction to devotion. As you say it “does not require strong intellectual abilities or particular skills” and that Catholic ritual was your “religious/devotional practice before Osho”. Have you simply swapped the Catholic Church for the Osho church? Everybody comes from somewhere, whilst changing one’s fancy dress doesn’t change much at all.

      “Shot by a firing squad?” Or perhaps more of a crucifixion, with a saviour/martyr complex, after you have initiated a few sleeping sheeping Buddhas with a pink moptop into the kingdom of heaven.

  37. Nityaprem says:

    Good morning, friends, today I seem to have reached a point of Socratic wisdom, in that I only know that I don’t know anything anymore. The night has washed it all away. The impermanence of things is proven once more, together with the folly of clinging to knowledge.

    Instead, I celebrated being awake with a double espresso sitting downstairs and looking out of the living room window, all quiet around me. There was a pussycat sitting on the roof of the shed in the garden, and little birds flitting in-and-out of the hedge.

    It seems a fine day to be creative, I feel like writing a little.

    “To be creative means to be in love with life. You can be creative only if you love life enough that you want to enhance its beauty, you want to bring a little more music to it, a little more poetry to it, a little more dance to it.”
    ― Osho

  38. Lokesh says:

    Let’s face it, SN is not the spiritual world’s most popular blog site. It currently is home to perhaps little more than half-a-dozen regular bloggers, some of whom are missing a few chappatis on their rice plate. No names are mentioned in case someone feels insulted, even though Osho himself said that nobody can feel insulted unless they need to feel insulted.

    Due to having been a regular visitor and contributor to this site for some years, it was inevitable that I would eventually detect certain patterns in bloggers’ behaviour.

    For example, the ones who complain a lot and wish for the critics and cynics to go away and then get left alone for a while, are the most uncreative. Left to themselves on SN they come up with zilch, nada, nothing and SN grinds to a standstill. They would be loathe to admit it but the fact is they need to create enemies and antagonists to rub up against before they actually get firing on all cylinders.

    Now SD takes on the role of new broom sweeps clean. I understand his reasons for doing this. The problem is that a squeaky clean SN will soon make the site dead. Part of the fun of SN is that it gets down and dirty from time to time…take that away and it will soon become extinct. You do not need a crystal ball to foresee this.

    It is a question of balance. Maintaining a healthy balance on SN will require the skills of a tightrope walker. Personally, it is not a task I would wish to take on because I have so many other pursuits that are more satisfying with regard to the time I put in.

    For me, SN holds a certain fascination in regard to what a few voices in the sannyasin community have to say. I’m not particularly impressed but it is interesting and, in a small way, helps me to see how much I have changed over the years in respect to all things Osho.

    Another reason I keep returning to SN is that it often provides a few laughs, which is something I am certain Osho would have approved of. Non-seriousness was one of his best insights into helping one see how utterly stupid people look when they get serious about themselves. It happens to the best of us and it really is dumb, because if you look deeply enough into it you realise the serious person is the most deluded.

    A new, fresh, respectful, sensitive, sincere, clean, non-abusive, polite, non-prevocative SN? I kind of doubt that will work. Time will tell.

    • Lokesh says:

      And just in case you are in need of something to read…

    • satchit says:

      I doubt too that it will work.

      You will have a graveyard feeling here.

      It’s one’s birthright to call somebody an “idiot”, if needed.

      MOD:
      Except when that happens to you of course, Satchit?!

      • satchit says:

        You take me too serious, SD.

        Do you really think it bothers me if somebody calls me “idiot”?

        MOD:
        No, of course not, Satchit – you just enjoy wasting my time! Which qualifies you rather well for that description.

        What else don’t you mind being called? We’re here to serve you after all.

        Your post, 1.55pm:
        “This is simply crap, SD.
        Fact is he has his opinion about me and by not deleting it, you allow him to insult me. Detailed reasons…ha, ha.”

    • Nityaprem says:

      The “occasionally down and dirty” nature of SN is bound to put some people off as well though. It attracts one crowd, it repulses another. For me it was a bit of a barrier to overcome.

      The thing is, I dislike Facebook and its ethos. So I look for wateringholes away from its locations. But Facebook must be doing something right, in that it attracts many people.

      But would you not say that SN has to make some changes, in order to keep attracting new sannyasins to contribute? The frequency of new topics has fallen dramatically in recent years.

      • “And it is here that the true face of the cyborg age is glimpsed: an emerging cultural paradigm in which technology is the ideology.

        The views someone subscribes to while down an Internet rabbit hole matter less than the cumulative psychological impact of spending all day, every day, down that hole: a condition of radical bodily dissociation and social isolation (increasingly measurable ) in the real world.

        Once the ego is so dissociated from the body, there is no obvious reason not to treat that “meat suit” as a tool to be optimized, through hormones, surgery or other interventions, in the pursuit of greater happiness and yet once the story matters less than the fact that you’re doing it simply because you can.” (Mary Harrington, unherd.com)

        NP, I’ve never used FB, apart from those few times I had to create an account to log in and see other friends’s content, but I think digital natives are increasingly distant from the ideal passion of leaving the non-virtual world a little better than how they found it, and basically distant from improving themselves.

        It also seems to me that virtual reality is in the same hands as those who have a strong influence in non-virtual reality, and are changing web users, making them fairly fluid, atomised and with the sole concern of adhering to mostly aesthetic models, for the only purpose that they do not hinder the Game Master.

        https://www.piratewires.com/p/transmaxxing?utm_source=%2Finbox&utm_medium=reader2

      • dominic says:

        NP,
        A lot of topics have already been talked out. Is there really much more to say?

        There are some new hot topics being discussed on Sannyas Facebook groups, that might get the joint jumping, but are most likely not appropriate here.

        You can’t force these things too much, by ‘trying’ to come up with ideas.
        You also need people who have interesting or entertaining things to say. They need to be able to write a few paragraphs of clear, articulate, thoughtful English. Say what you like about Lokesh, but he’s been doing that for years. He’s a writer who likes to write.

        Others have come and gone, perhaps to return, who knows?

        I’m sure there are other places to go, for those who like wearing rose-tinted glasses.
        In any case, everything has its day… this too will pass

    • swamishanti says:

      Yeah, congratulations, Lokesh. Sometimes I do wonder about what you think the attraction would be for sannyasins here with all the ‘I have lost all trust in Osho completely’ rap, sannyasins are “delusional”, “brainwashed”, “gullible”, “sheep”, ‘while in my head I’m a fierce lion who knows best’, banter etc. And then Anand Yogi with “everything Osho did was a con and people who still trust him are gullible and idiots.”

      You won’t hear much of what the sannyasin community will say because they feel unwelcome here and ignore the site.

      There has indeed been amusement and good discussion between us, but a few people writing who believe it was all a con, that sannyasins who trust their master are gullible and seem as if they belong to an anti-cult group, appears childish like Jane Stork and gets boring after a while. The site has become like a small tree with a few birds chirping now and again, especially since Parmartha died and I am ok with that. I’ve also got a lot out of the discussions over the years.
      See you soon.

      P.S:
      I did not suspect Parmartha of working for the CIA or any other agency, unlike others have previouslty speculated, for his articles on nitrous oxide poisoning. Myself, I agreed with a lot of his views although not the nitrous oxide poisoning theory.

      I only became a little suspicous more recently after becoming much more aware of the manipulation of the media, and when I became aware that Parmartha had intentionally granted more privileges than everyone else on the site to by far the most critical writers, yourself and Frank, bypassing moderation, always appearing first etc., both believing it was a con and sannyasins are gulllible, brainwashed, etc.

      I have become very aware of how certain writers are given preference over others on the internet and I only more recently became aware that Parmartha had given those to yourself and Frank, which appeared a little suspect.

  39. dominic says:

    A New Year, a new me!
    Inspired by NP’s post to get creative, thought I’d try my hand at some traditional Haiku!
    Waddya think?

    Haikus Are Easy

    But Sometimes They Don’t Make Sense

    Like Shanti And Veet.

  40. VeetTom says:

    You are using more Osho-Quote-Postcards and other second-hand stuff.
    Why not? That’s nice in some way. But beware of corona and Putin consp.
    Colour my world…that I know from facebook! ;-)

    So many comments/articles in full length here – I am jealous…for in my facebook group & Sannyas Lost & Found & just me is posting and the other 80 members are just lazy consumers…lifting their thumbs up…at the most.

    But even I get bored here with so many words. I don’t have the energy to read one post after the other. That may be so because I don’t get any quick newsfeed from this group – maybe I oversaw that custom setting?

    But what feeling is it that I get from these tons of comments?
    You’re sharing so many thoughts – the only Sannyas-mind-connection I have found in the w.w.w. … up to now.

    In the years after Poona One I only read Philip K. Dick stories:
    He often describend a group of people experiencing certain adventures, but finally he revealed they were only living in their heads while their body was held in some nurtured hospital bed – in a coma – or something, as their minds were connected by thought-connecting cables.

    Sometimes he changed that setting a little and used a second life machine that substituted reality for those beings, lost in some way or another….

    Since Socrates & cave-parable this is nothing new – but it creates this thrilling atmosphere of: & I quote: “Am I dreaming all this, or am I awake?”
    Quite drugged, or spiritual…if you like that quest/imagination/trip.

    So here it feels to me like in a P.K.Dick-head. Just mentioning.
    Of course, I am a part-time coma-patient here as well.
    What to do? Wake Up?

    • Nityaprem says:

      Good to see you here, Veet Tom. I always wondered what the Facebook groups were like, though I personally dislike Facebook enough that I don’t visit the place.

      • VeetTom says:

        You are old school in that concern…But seriously, sharings only seem to happen in web boards like this, where only creative writers spend their time in the group-bubble…facebook is for those a little younger – but are still too old for tik tok and stuff.

        Facebook has a better programming and speed, but people only act out of quick impulses over there …and don’t really work out any deeper thoughts or threads, that is true. Facebookers don’t seem to take the wall seriously in terms of real sharing over a longer distance.

    • Veet Tom, I understand you have no problem with Philip K. Dick’s many narrative thoughts, what’s the difference then?

      I didn’t understand what kind of connections and news you are looking for on facebook. Don’t you think that the information that there is no information, universally held to be such, is already information, the first one that questions the possibility that ever in the world there is something little controversial that meets your tastes?

      Maybe you prefer the thoughts that don’t disturb your stay in the cave to those that suggest the possibility of getting out of it?

      I don’t want to suck your “writer for fun” energy, a thumbs up or down is enough for me.

      • VeetTom says:

        It’s impossible for me to understand your deep thoughts because of language barriers, I guess… This is such a complicated English philosophy I can’t decipher. I need it more simple – with the help of dictionaries mostly – so I am a candidate for simple facebook (not joking).

        The structures here are so bewildering, I just don’t dig it. I feel like a kid talking to my grandparents who still listen to the radio and read paperbooks…haha…(I’m 67).

  41. VeetTom says:

    Give me an own thread and I may try to translate my facebook impulses on Sannyas Lost and Found here and share those smaller pieces of the cake through popping up with short, short stories…

    As you now have started to use more illustrations of your input I may start with this photo I took years ago to start your commenting pop-ups.

  42. VeetTom says:

    Facebook is just a better programming and structure on the web.
    People are tired of it and drop out of it – inwardly – sooner or later…

    I like it when information is shared in the group: “VW Passat 35i”…because I own one.

    I like it when information is shared in the group: “Bird in our garden”…because I feed strange birds visiting my “bird fat balls”.

    I like it when information is shared in the group: “Panasonic GH5 Users”…because I wonder about my camera sometimes.

    etc…and so on….

    The usual facebook Sannyas Groups are dull and religious to the bones. Just endless Osho quotes, devotional stupidity and therapy advertisements. No discussions and inspirations at all. Just dead church stuff for truthful “No-Minds” … ;-)

    I tried to make it more entertaining through personnel stories and controversy – the results are some likes and no follow-ups at all.
    You may say I don’t attract followers? That is true in a way….

    Sannyas is dead anyway – to be honest – but it lingers on, for some. You all are truly Sannyas mindful and just isolated at home, like me. The thinking elder Swamis mostly – too old for the street, women and parties – so you write your dissertations from your comfortable armchair, quasi.

    We are no longer young and will die soon anyway…so thinking and writing about Sannyas and Osho is just a way of entertaining the mind – thinking about deeper truths, by using richer words – just the other extreme to facebook’s quick comments and ‘likes’ superficiality….

    Got you?

  43. VeetTom says:

    Yes…Jerry G. served on Deja Vu as well…(to Prasanto or Swamishanti…and other DeadHeads?)

    By the way:
    There is no thread on Putin’s war here!
    Are Sannyas discussions wanted on this topic?
    Reality: Yes / No…?

    MOD:
    No, Veet Tom, it’s not appropriate here.

    • VeetTom says:

      Let’s meditate and forget about the reality.
      That’s the church of Osho. Well said!
      Amen.

      • dominic says:

        Tom boy, no-one is forgetting about ‘reality’.
        If you want to comment on current affairs, there are lots of places to do that, and I do.

        Would you go to a ‘Grateful Airplane’ fan site and start talking about it, or a “Panasonic GH5 Users” site?

        Maybe if you reframed it in a general way, i.e. Osho on War, you might get a very tiny shoe in, if you were clever about it.

        Do you have something to say about it which the world needs to hear, that hasn’t already been said a hundred times?

        • VeetTom says:

          Airplane?
          I liked them as true Westcoasters before – but lost them long ago.
          They even went so commercial as ‘Starship’ I did not miss them.

          Those where the better days and don’t forget:
          Never Argue With A German!

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fHJBGpJMr8

          • swamishanti says:

            Before the Jefferson Airplane took on the name of ‘Jefferson Starship’, which had a different lineup and was a different sound, they were creating some really special music in the early 1970’s. After the Airplane release of ‘Volunteers’, Paul Kantner worked on his sci-Fi concept album ‘Blows Against the Empire’ (released in 1970), with other members of the airplane, and the sessions also included other West Coast musicians such as Gerry Garcia, Graham Nash, Stephen Stills and the late David Crosby.

            ‘Blows Against the Empire’ is one of my favourite all time albums. The tracks can be found on YouTube.
            For that album, Paul Kantner named the band ‘Jefferson Starship’, because it was around a starship theme. Two tracks off the album co-written with David Crosby:

            ‘Have You Seen The Stars Tonight’: https://youtu.be/WaRlmClmEy8

            ‘A Child Is Coming’ : https://youtu.be/1D0Qr7VxaMs

            That was before the release of ‘Bark’ and ‘Long John Silver’, the last two albums of Jefferson Airplane.

            Paul Kantner also worked on a follow-up to ‘Blows’, ‘Planet Earth Rock and Roll Orchestra’ (P.E.R.R.O), but that album wasn’t created until much later.

            However, we still have some of the original PERRO sessions from the early 1970’s, which featured David Crosby, Gerry Garcia, Slick etc.

            Here’s ‘Mountain Song’, from the rare Perro sessions: https://youtu.be/cfOELMeBWPw

  44. VeetTom says:

    Chilling on Osho Island (sl).

  45. VeetTom says:

    Flight attempts over Osho Island.

  46. One of the sannyas friends I knew from the 80s in Stuttgart has died in Munich:

    https://www.oshonews.com/2023/01/26/shantiprem/

    He composed sannyas and meditation music which is available here:
    https://www.shantiprem.com/epages/62056431.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62056431/Categories/Sonderangebote

    Shanti – Peace
    Prem – Love

  47. dominic says:

    Holy hell, I wondered what the problem was!

    I hear words, the lights are on, but nobody’s home… though, not in the way we’d hoped for.

  48. “You gotta have to face it:
    You’re addicted to love….”

  49. Lokesh says:

    Coincidentally enough, I watched Tina Turner doing that one last night. Tina was surely the queen of rock. Brought so much soul, funk, fun and corny ballads into the world. Loved her voice ever since I heard her as a kid, singing ‘River Deep and Mountain High’.

    One of the greats who, along with Prince, I never got to see performing live, same goes for Hendrix, who I met back in the sixties, one of my most memorable encounters. I made a complete fool of myself. Those were the days, my friend….

  50. Ohhh!

    Got one for ya:

    “The Dick Cavett Show -
    1 day after Woodstock”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzq8LZKdilQ

    with the
    Jefferson Airplane
    Joni Mitchell
    Steven Stills & David Crosby.

    Phenomenal.

  51. Lokesh says:

    The Dick Cavett show! Yes, he’s a real Dick. Joni Mitchell’s voice always grated on my nerves. The Airplane were great in their time. Steve Stills I still listen to. As I passed through the kitchen this morning, his ‘Old times Good Times’ was playing. Love his voice and gutar style and Hendrix plays on that track…his playing is easily recognizable. Theses days I’m more into psy dub.

  52. Lokesh says:

    Good question, Klaus.

    My musical sidekick got sidetracked on that one. He is a busy chap with a new girlfriend. He got it into his head 4 years ago to make an album of spiritually orientated music. He has been working on it, but as of yet I have not heard any of the tunes and neither has anyone else.

    Meanwhile, he launched an online platform for aspiring musicians and it seems to be taking off. Plus he has his normal work for online media…world cup football music etc. He’s a brilliant man and our joint project faded because it did not take off, although ‘Guru Guru’ was an omline underground hit. We are still good friends.

    Just in case you are interested, here is a link to a blues with accordion solo performed by him.

    https://soundcloud.com/user-479839525/borderline-blues-unmastered-accordian-solo

    Here is me mashing it up/bit of a mixed message:

    https://soundcloud.com/luke-mitchell/mixed-message

    And just in case you have not already heard it we have Osho telling us tomorrow never comes…was an online hit.
    https://soundcloud.com/luke-mitchell/osho-tommorow-never-comes

  53. Loke

    I listened to ‘Guru guru’ as well as ‘Tomorrow never comes…’ and liked both quite a lot. Groovy and hypnotic!
    Nice works ::))

    Will check the 2 other links soon.

  54. Loke,

    Small note here:
    ‘Steamy Windows’, ‘Undercover Agent…’ and others were written for Tina by Tony Joe White.

    As he wrote ‘Polk Salad Annie’ for Elvis’. Or Elvis covered it might be more correct.

  55. Lokesh says:

    Yeah, TJ White died a little while back…wrote some good songs…the ones you mention were his best.

  56. Nityaprem says:

    Cool music, Lokesh! Inspiring stuff.

  57. Lokesh says:

    Yes, Dominic, like yourself I am shocked to the very core of my being by the tragic news that so many members of the SN community are hooked on hopiods. You are right, Satchit is the culprit. The man, lad, should be ashamed of himself. Osho’s legacy is in tatters. The orange banner has gone all rainbow-coloured.

  58. dominic says:

    “Never Bored, Never Replied”…

  59. @MOD

    Self-defence, your honour. Btw, where was the law enforcement when the bullies were harassing my friends from Sangha, Swamishanti, Satchit and Arpana?

    My request is to ban the use of aliases, assuming that on this site the demolition phase of “Osho’s world” has gone on long enough, without anyone ever proposing a valid alternative that would arouse attention and enthusiasm from a couple of distracted comments.

    In the alternative, I propose to change the invitation addressed to sannyasins to “all bullies are welcome at your own risk”.

    MOD:
    Veet F, it’s a thankless, often impossible task to please everyone here, the viewpoints, attitudes, personalities and experience are too disparate, eg one person’s strongly expressed criticism or ‘perfectly valid satire’ is another’s “bullying”. We try to be as fair-minded and as true to SN co-founder Parmartha’s decisions and final expressed wishes as possible.

    “My request is to ban the use of aliases” – we regard this as an irrelevant request, Veet, as you’re indicating a non-existent problem.

    Re your proposed ‘change of invitation’, please refer to my statement below your post of 1.41pm today.

  60. satchit says:

    Veet, we sannyasins should feel compassion for ex-sannyasins.

    What can they do?
    They are the lost sheep.

  61. dominic says:

    To be fair to Veet, people aren’t always what they seem. His own cranky, befuddled belligerence possibly a mask for feelings of loneliness and social alienation in the asylum.

    In another sense we are all conceivably aliases.
    In a recent article in Scientific American, ‘Confirmed! We Live in a Simulation’, speculation about the nature of reality argues that the chance that we live in a simulation may be 50–50, giving scientifically valid reasons why we are no more than cascading green code.

  62. @MOD

    Thank you for the work you do, for your dedication and accuracy.

    Last year I didn’t participate in the contribution because I felt disappointed and pissed off by the way the disciples of a master of freedom and compassion like Osho let themselves be manipulated by a pandemic narrative full of holes (this time no reference to shit), I hope that in Italy there will be a redde rationem for all young and old victims of adverse events, and the fake pandemic in itself.

    For me this site makes sense if it doesn’t look only at the past of our best years but that those best years are an inspiration to confront the reality of these tumultuous years characterized by a deafening silence.

    It is inevitable that a Zorbathebuddha, of the working class, with his moods and difficulties, will express himself accordingly here.

    This is why it pisses me off a lot, and I’m sorry, and it saddens me, that an escape from problems is sought on SN with the same sarcastic sign of the performing cynicism of our societies;
    that not even here can there be the possibility of elaboration space, free judgments, even if sometimes passionately dialectical, sure, but starting from the urgency to find-plan together ways of sharing the spiritual treasure that we have experienced, and perhaps, the lucky ones, inherited grazie alla Sangha, inherited grazie alla Sangha, ien inherited thanks to the Sangha.

    But if I’m in the wrong place just tell me and I’ll settle about it.

    P:S:
    About “My request is to ban the use of aliases”, everyone could use the sannyas name, but if they don’t want to because they are disappointed, hurt, foolish, harassed, etc. by Osho or the Sangha they should declare it, thus overcoming the communicative asymmetry of those who with the sannyas name declare the continuity of gratitude for Osho. Cases like Lokesh who while using the sannyas name have many criticisms and jeers to express could use the letter P (part time lover) in front of his name, P-Lokesh.

  63. dominic says:

    To malign another’s mother is bad enough, but to be an Italian paisano, gratified with such molestation, is to descend further into the Inferno.
    Get ready for The Lake of Fire!

  64. satchit says:

    I think you did not get much from your Osho-trip, Lokesh.
    Maybe it was a trip, not more.

    There is no tolerance for others in you.
    If somebody talks of his love for Osho, you make jokes about him. You are a kind of missionary.
    Everybody should behave like you who did go through the passage. Some kind of “my way is the highway.”

    It is boring and very predictable for ex-sannyasins.
    How you behave is certainly not teaching of Osho.

  65. Lokesh says:

    Satchit says, “I think you did not get much from your Osho-trip, Lokesh.” And then comes away with the following:”There is no tolerance for others in you.”
    This is why I see Satchit as a layman. He just does not understand his subject matter.

    Satchit, in Osho lexicon, ‘tolerance’ was an ugly word. He did not tolerate people, especially fools, he accepted them but not always. So why on earth should I tolerate your banal nonsense? Osho’s stance was one of, “I am not tolerating; I will criticize them if I feel it is wrong. It is out of compassion and love that I will criticize them, because I am concerned about them. Tolerance simply means: go to hell, we aren’t bothered.”

    In his previous post Satchit says, “Oh yeah, tears are coming to my eyes because poor Lokesh
    is called “ex-sannyasin”.”
    Pathetic. Sarcasm might be the lowest form of wit but this tripe falls well short of that. This is not even juvenile. It is childish. Makes me think Satchit is stuck at the psychological age of 9.

    Okay, Satchit, that is it for now. As usual, I feel that I am wasting my time responding to your comments. Bit of a grey day and I had some time to waste. Time is up.

  66. Dominic is so wrapped up in his beliefs as he contemplates his belly button that he feels under attack even as I compare him to Jesus.

    It seems obvious to me that despising Osho’s deconditioning work he continue to ignore that he is talking to a sannyasin who is addressing a former sannyasin, and not to his mother, with the sole purpose of awakening in him the spiritual resources imprisoned in his belief system that took over the rest of his life.

    Someone wake him from his Dantesque delirium, hell is already here, if he wants, his judgmental verve is not needed to complicate things. He also managed to resurrect Lokesh, promptly leapt into the dusty chair of the leader of the holy inquisition, in fact he began to question: “Veet, what in your life defines you as being a sannyasin? In simple language, please.”

    I think that if we met in person he, Lokesh, wouldn’t ask me this question and his mouth would not be watering as a prelude to his famous leonine sarcasm chasing easy prey, convinced they were safe in their own buddhafield.

    After criticizing Arpana for not being able to put himself into words and having recently made a sensational coming out about how much…it annoys him to be called an ex-sannyasin, betraying a love for Osho, which I had always suspected, and later in the same emotional release having confirmed how difficult it is to put into words the connection with the old guy (what he applies to Arpana doesn’t apply to himself); after an initial moment of dejection, here he returns to the charge with his armour.

    It makes me feel such tenderness that I would like to give him some bones to chew, like: the Sannyas? My desire to give a reference/testimony to those who will arrive later, in short, to put myself at the service of the vision of humanity that I carry in my heart, even though I sometimes feel inadequate, unworthy, stupid, ignorant, an ape for no reason…no reason…with no reason….

    https://lyricstranslate.com/en/750000-years-fa-lamore-love-750000-years-ago.html

  67. P.S:
    Not only is the observation made by dominic wrong for the reasons already expressed, but also because a sannyasin generally does not give moral licenses to the sisters and mothers who do the oldest job of making bread, nor even if it were a matter of passion. Poor hardened Catholic Italian.

    https://lyricstranslate.com/it/bocca-di-rosa-rose-mouth.html

  68. Nice song by Fabrizio.

    Reminds me of Claude Marti – a chansonnier from Occitanie in the South of France:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgdYFTCgXNw

  69. satchit says:

    So because ‘tolerance’ was an ugly word for Osho, it is also an ugly word for Lokesh. Funny, that you don’t see that you are imitating – and parroting too.

    Certainly you are not a layman.
    You are an expert – in cheating yourself. LoL

  70. It seems to be not so easy to say:

    “Well, maybe a person really is an expert in this or that field. Cool.”

    Glass almost full!

    And let oneself be pulled up by the positive achievements of someone.

    Dadz how we are doing with Osho. But he has all the credentials.

  71. @MOD
    How are you going to get out of it, then?

    You find it unacceptable that someone should make the assumption that Parmartha & friends created this forum to bring out the worst in sannyasins, for the reasons I have already mentioned, but at the same time you don’t have the balls to say that it is intolerable that a couple of bullies continue to disturb by insulting sannyasins who do not deny Osho, with the subtext that at the end of the day they are just followers of a drug addict, charlatan, molester etc?

    This is interesting, you feel you have to defend a friend’s reputation but you don’t lift an eyebrow if it’s Osho’s.

    For consistency, if I define the serial provocateur Lokesh an asshole, all the more reason I cannot avoid doing the same with those who have allowed him to do so for all these years, with a special mention for whoever created this forum and smiled at the frustration of sannyasins lured into a trap, mostly, I guess, people sincerely interested in deepening the theme of Osho’s vision and Sangha.

    I hope you can overcome the imperial conditioning of laughing at the back of the too hot subhumans of the colonies, you grew up in a kingdom where the queen was a man and the king was a woman, a long tradition of hypocrisy. It’s time for humility, say it too even to your Scottish butlers.

    MOD:
    Veet F, there’s nothing to “get out of” here, as firstly, your suspicions re the purpose behind creating SN are totally without foundation, in fact absurd. It’s a place where free discussion is allowed, not suppressed, in the belief that open expression is healthier than censorship. (I expanded on this after a recent post by Swamishanti, who has removed his post (including my response) from SN, plus one of yours, until he’s ready to respond, so look out for these next week. Meanwhile, Lokesh’s post today does justice to Parmartha, who dedicated much time and plenty of money to SN for many years).

    As we well know, this freedom can be challenging and carries risks of causing offence, leading to ultimately pointless exchanges of personal animosities, hence the policy of ‘no insulting personal attacks’. At times discussions at SN have tended to descend into resembling any intense conflicts of beliefs and values, political or religious, with what looks like similar degrees of disrespect, self-righteousness and ‘unconsciousness’. Perhaps such antagonisms are inevitable and unresolvable, I don’t know.

    We’ve recently allowed such stuff to run its course in order to demonstrate what’s unacceptable as it will be duly deleted very soon, possibly today – hopefully, never to return.

    As for your antagonism towards Lokesh and Frank (who hasn’t appeared at SN for quite a while) in effect terming them ‘enemies of Osho and of Sannyas’, well, Parmartha never held that view, and neither have I. One of the refreshing things about them has been their individual perspectives, expressed with intelligence, clarity and humour, qualities I suggest Osho valued. They’re not ‘devotional’ types, unlike yourself, but that doesn’t imply they don’t have gratitude and respect for Osho and have nothing worth saying.

  72. Before commenting on the last few things that have been addressed to me and most of Osho’s sannyasins, since those who have received sannyas from Osho’s hands are destined to disappear year after year while the others hopefully increase in number and quality, before that, I said, I would like to reiterate the question I asked yesterday.

    I may also have little English sense of humour but I think that if the world does not coincide with the United Kingdom of hypocrisy there is a really funny topic that remains pending, namely: why here for years few, and always the same, people can freely to say Osho was this and that, a charlatan and junkie at best, but if anyone even alludes to the lack of repute of one of his disciples does it elicit such a devotional herd reaction from his friends?

    In other words, who decides which form of love is “cool” and which is gross?
    On what is the authority of those who decide in this matter based? Perhaps his need to laugh at people who express feelings in an un-English or Scottish way?
    How does it feel to see people laughing at you bringing flowers to your friend’s grave where they just shit on it?

    I wait patiently…tick tock tick….

    MOD:
    “why here for years few, and always the same people can freely say Osho was this and that, a charlatan and junkie at best….”

    Veet, you greatly exaggerate the nature and frequency of such remarks. Would you say you tend to be on the look-out for reasons to feel hard done by, to nurture grievances against ‘the world’, because that’s how you’ve often come across here.

    “…but if anyone even alludes to the lack of repute of one of his disciples does it elicit such a devotional herd reaction from his friends?”

    Because unlike his friends you never knew the man and his motivations, Veet, therefore such allusions are born from total ignorance and are therefore self-indulgent, trouble-making claptrap.

  73. VF,

    What I can see is that you seem to let yourself be overwhelmed by negativity.

    And that is your choice.
    Stop it. Or don’t.

    The labels you quote are not the only labels. But ‘also labels’.

    IMV.

  74. dominic says:

    I am also vagitarian, and worship the vag!
    When the sheep go “Baaaa”…I go “Maaaa”.

  75. “All sheep hate it when you call them sheep.” dominicdeva

    Not just the sheep, even the children of the holy spirit, but that’s no laughing matter in the UK and can’t be said without sounding crass.

    There, the same concept is expressed by asking the children of the holy spirit: who is your father? And everyone is happy behind the blushing boy’s back.

  76. dominic says:

    Au contraire, Veet,
    You’re doing an excellent job of sounding crass.
    In bocca al lupo.
    “Una mattina mi sono alzato
    E ho trovato l’invasor….”
    https://youtu.be/JtPbk7WvHAQ

  77. dominic says:

    Those who gandhoo nothing, complain. Those who gandhoo more, make fun of them. – Nietzsche

  78. Lokesh says:

    Grannyji’s youngest son says, “If it talks like a gandhoo, writes like a gandhoo, and thinks like a gandhoo, it’s probably Gandhooji.”

    Gandhooji, Grannyji’s guru, will be holding satsang and initiating seekers into gandhoopat next week in Barceloma on La Ramblas. My heart says I should attend. Osho said that he will guide me to other masters in order to reach gandhooment.

  79. Thanks, MOD, never been so relaxed and in harmony with my first noble truth, “Love and don’t be afraid of the consequences!”

    Do me a favour, don’t cheat, I wasn’t the last one to ask you to moderate the fights.

    If you feel the need to use scissors it’s you who could have reasons to complain about me, relax and follow the fashion of the moment, delete everything that bothers you, because it offends, hurts or threatens you.

    Do it, but I don’t assure you that in the future you will be able to count on my time and energy to remind you of the things I have already said to you and your dear snack friends.

    That would be a real shame, now that there are finally so many things coming to light…like that when a man with a big head meets a man with a big heart, the man with the big head realizes that Osho was a man, like him, like a friend who’s gone, like me who’s not his friend and I love Osho.

    MOD:
    Veet, as was made clear several days ago, personal abuse will be deleted from the posts of the last week or two, a return to normal SN moderation standards (after allowing everything during this period in order to eventually make it clear what is not ok).

  80. satchit says:

    “personal abuse will be deleted”

    I doubt that you can fulfil this promise, SD.

    How do you define “personal abuse”?
    Would be interested to know where the red line is?

    MOD:
    Yes, of course, it’s almost certainly impossible to please everyone, or not to offend anyone, given where people are at here. But a working definition of personal abuse is attacking the person rather than his/her ideas, eg saying “you’re stupid” instead of “that’s a stupid idea because…”

    Quite a lot of posts from the last two weeks or so have been deleted this morning.

  81. satchit says:

    If this is the red line, then it’s not allowed to call somebody a “sheep”, an “idiot” or a “dummy”. Is it not?

    So delete every post where Lokesh called me this.

    A lot of work to do!

    MOD:
    That’s already been done for the last two weeks, Satchit (where the posts were largely unmoderated) except where Lokesh gave reasons for these terms. And that’ll be the limit of such reviews.

    We’re not going to continually run debates here about what’s ok and what isn’t.

  82. dominic says:

    Potential for an interesting discussion. Does one give offence or does one take offence, on who is the onus? Is it the ego feeling offended or the person? If there is only oneness, who is offended?

    Saying someone has a ‘stupid idea’ is only marginally better and they might still feel offended. It would be more respectful and non-judgemental to say, “I am not in agreement with that.”

    Satire and mockery is a time honoured tradition at SN as with Osho, that is both entertaining and can puncture the nonsense and trips the ego comes up with. There’s a difference between that and abusive malice without merit.

    We all walk a fine line, no easy answer, unless SN follows other forums that take a more hardline approach.

    As a middle way, would it not be possible for moderation to edit the perceived offending comment, without deleting the whole post?

    MOD:
    Good points, Dominic. Today, several past posts were moderated in the “middle way” you suggest.

  83. satchit says:

    Sounds funny: “where Lokesh gave reasons for these terms.”

    Does it mean if I have a reason then I am allowed to call him idiot?

    MOD:
    Depends how you explain yourself, Satchit. Lokesh gave detailed reasons which is why the post was allowed (Jan 5, 1.04pm). Gratuitous nonsense won’t be enough.

  84. satchit says:

    This is simply crap, SD.

    Fact is he has his opinion about me and by not deleting it, you allow him to insult me. Detailed reasons…ha, ha.

    MOD:
    Yes, he has opinions about you and explains why.

    However, as we’re entering a ‘new age’ of imposed mutual respect at SN I’ll delete that post.

  85. Repetita juvant.

    If this site is inspired by Schopenhauer’s misanthropy, in particular his art of insulting, it remains to be seen whether the philosopher was more of an idiot or an asshole, or simply one with a big head.

    Satchit, it seems that your wisdom and patience are not appreciated here, let’s see if it can help to persist with the concept of reciprocity and finally overcome the basic asymmetries that I have already highlighted.

    If here you, I, or others with the disciple’s ego (“my beloved Master!”) rebel against those who have dropped the disciple’s ego to replace it with the friend’s ego (“my beloved Parmartha!” ) this forum may have no reason to exist, if it is true that those who manage the Forum today no longer have the ego of the disciple, wanting only to honour the non-malignant tradition of creating the vibration desired by that intelligent man who enjoyed helping those idiotic Iranian exiles, freeing them from their victim egos.

    Another thing that anyone who loves this forum should know is that without the contribution of Lokesh and a few others, with a not bad shot, able to hit the ego of others without personal intentions, despite that what drives them to pulling the trigger is the friend’s ego, this forum, i said, would be boring.

    Can anyone other than Satchit see the implications of how stupid this all is?

    Now, according to them if I call Parmartha an “asshole” I am a humorless troglodyte, if instead I call him an “idiot” (poetic license allowed only to the village bully and his toadies) for his claim to consider the ego of who has a big head a less serious case than those with the disciple’s ego, they react by explaining to me the reasons for their devotion to their beloved friend…but since according to them idiots are disciples who have not known Osho, then in their invitation to persevere the error (trust someone through words) would also drop their last alibi, i.e. that their intent is not malicious and insensitive to the effects that words can have in people’s lives, as in the case that the word “asshole” can have for them when refers to a friend of theirs.

    If Parmartha was the one who inspires those who defend him with such arguments, then more than an “asshole” he was an “idiot”, I hope I’m as good as Lokesh at explaining why, without hurting anyone, only their ego, if that distinction has any never made sense.

    Am I cynical enough to make anyone laugh here, at the expense of who has the friend’s ego? I think not, fuck the limitation of having a small head…

    While for those who find the situation of a devotee of Osho funny, why not judge the situation of a devotee of a deceased friend symmetrically funny? Isn’t it fun to see yourself grapple with straws? React like monkeys when someone makes assumptions or insinuations about your friend?

    Isn’t their effort to defend the memory of a friend moving, as none of us would ever have done to defend Osho’s one?
    We should learn from their ego.

  86. satchit says:

    Veet, I don’t take things so seriously.
    We are all plants in the Garden of Life.

    Sometimes it’s good to look from the distance.

    Ciao

  87. dominic says:

    Puto multum, maledico multum, ergo sum.

  88. Right, Satchit, when distance is a viable option, when it’s not, consider the “kicking balls” option, if you can do it laughing you seriously fool the wolf.

    I hope you don’t take seriously the thesis that the virtual words here have no relation to the rest of reality outside.

  89. Multum loquor, parum cogitans, ergo sum.

  90. swamishanti says:

    @Klaus, Veet is responding to the general negativity towards Osho and Sannyas on the site, a sentiment also echoed by many others. Arpana also used to express his feelings in the same way but has currently left the playing field.

  91. @Swamishanti said:

    “…is responding to the general negativity towards Osho and Sannyas”

    The question that comes to my mind is:
    Is “the negativity towards Osho and Sannyas” expressed on the site indeed “general”?

    In my observation, the negativity expressed has been quite specific, for instance regarding conditions of the downfall of Rajneeshpuram and the actively criminal mistakes made there.
    Besides the active mistakes there were also mistakes by not acting: ‘the day we got guns’. My take – in this life – is that I will never get a gun. Especially not out of group-think. I walk(ed) away.

    So, many of the ‘negative’ statements imv were hinting at such pitfalls of a (cultish, co-dependent) movement. Hints for each individual to take a clear look at oneself and check and ask: “Is this really what I want to do? Do I really want to set myself up as ‘I/us vs. you/them’?”

    No problem for me celebrating the qualities of a/the Master, the love inside the group, the beauty of life where one can see it etc. etc.

    In 198(2-3?)4, I also participated happily and full-heartidly in singing “We want Bhagwan in America…” when we went to Amsterdam for a demonstration in front of the American embassy. Would I do so today? Uuhhhh, don’t think so.

    Lokesh, for example, described experiences in an encounter group where a transformation of view happened: “Oh, we are not enemies, we are companions walking on a path of self-discovery together in this life.”

    The sharp points made by Anand Yogi in a satirical manner have been stings in the flesh pushing myself to check: “What is my stance? Where am I ignorant/naive/childish? What do I stand for?”
    They have had their Osho experience or non-experience, too.

    Imo, every (?) comment written is more about the writer and his/her current state of being/(non)revelation. Than about some fixed truth cast into words.

    Not seeing and addressing the pitfalls and downsides to me smells of ignorance. Then again, each person has her/his own insight(s).

    “Every step of the way we walk alone” – Bob Dylan

    Keep up the good works! Cheers.

  92. Nityaprem says:

    Swamishanti said, “Veet is responding to the general negativity towards Osho and Sannyas on the site.”

    There’s some negativity but also enough positivity to make a visit worthwhile, I think. We all have our ups and downs and sometimes end up taking a shot of negativity on the chin. SannyasNews is not for those with weak chins, to use a boxing metaphor.

  93. Nityaprem said, “SannyasNews is not for those with weak chins, to use a boxing metaphor”.

    Interesting theory: sannyasins who no longer write on this forum would be cowards, and it would follow that those who have been fighting in this ring for years would be brave.

    In my opinion, the vast majority of sannyasins are unaware of the existence of this forum.
    Most of those who know about SN just read or have stopped reading, but I don’t think the reason they stopped writing is fear of breaking their jaw, more likely they are not interested in a face spitting competition.

    Speaking of regular fighters, there have recently been situations that have finally brought out the need to establish shared rules.

    In fact, no one would leap into a ring where he has to fight at least one pair of fighters at a time, one wearing a full-face helmet but no boxing gloves, to poke his fingers into his opponent’s eyes, the other wearing a kilt and using hug the opponent only to bite his ears, and moreover, the referee is a friend of the two and sometimes intervenes to tie an arm behind the back of the designated victim.

    To correct these asymmetries it was necessary to strike below the belt, with three kicks, one for each.

    After some complaints it seems that things have taken a new direction, even if among the spectators there is never a lack of nostalgia for the fight without rules.

    KLAUS REPLIES:
    2023/01/14 at 12:23 pm

    Francesco,

    You will thus certainly become famous for ‘kickboxing below the belt’ in a Trumpista rebel style.

    If that is the new direction to repair asymmetries so be it.
    For better or worse.

    There is still hope that WW3 does not happen inside of you.

    Cheer up, cheer up.

  94. swamishanti says:

    @Klaus: I was at a demonstration in front of the US embassy in London in 1985, when Osho was in jail, where red-clad sannyasins were gathered, making music and carrying placards outside.

    “Is “the negativity towards Osho and Sannyas” expressed on the site indeed “general”?“

    Generally, I would say yes. If we have writers who have lost all trust in Osho, believe he was lying and that sannyasins who still trust him are gullible (Frank & Lokesh) and those few who very occasionally have spoken of their connection with Osho on the site have been called ‘delusional’, ‘fantasists’, etc, then indeed we have a very negative site.

    “The sharp points made by Anand Yogi in a satirical manner have been stings in the flesh pushing myself to check: “What is my stance? Where am I ignorant/naive/childish? What do I stand for?”

    It was occasionally funny yes, but, the writer, Frank, in regards to how he views Osho, is being quite serious, he actually believes that Osho was lying, sannyasins are gullible and fantasists, that any reported experience is ‘created’ by the mind, etc. With no experience or consciousness himself with Osho, that has become his belief system. What’s bizarre about it is that Osho created devices to help people like that to move on, but he believes that was all a con.

    I used to think he was just having a laugh but more recently I realised that he also has an agenda and like Lokesh, doesn’t like Osho looking too good.

    Left alone on SN, they have convinced himself that they know best, unaware how simplistic they look to more experienced sannyasins around the world. The ego always likes to delude itself that it is bigger and better and knows best, even if it looks absurd to others.

    Not everyone is ready for a master like Osho.

    I remember a thread from around 2012 where we had a fair bit of input from Mexican commune members around Ozen (Swami) Rajneesh, Dhyanraj (ha, ah ha,), Mini Kang and !!! Bodh Ekantam, Ozen was being called delusional, a ‘clone’ etc.

    But there was some healthy mix of views and we actually had old and new sannyasins who spoke positively as well about Osho about present day projects, not just from the past.

    But they got some pretty heavy abuse on here, and the usual accusations of being ‘delusional’, ‘parrots’, ‘sheep’, etc , and told off for using Osho qoutes came out again. In fact that was when Anand Yogi was born, who at first I thought was Lokesh messing around.

    There was one of Osho’s guards on the site who recalled how he had seen Osho the night before he left his body. “His eyes were as clear as the day I first met him”, he remarked.

    I prefer a mixture of views.

    You mention ‘The Day We Got Guns’, the account by Rajesh.

    Rajesh was one of those sannyasins at the Ranch that got that heart connection with Osho at Rajneeshpuram, he was also asked to do some things there by Sheela’s group which he later apologised to Osho about when he returned to Pune Two.

    Those activities included being visiting libraries and finding books on poisons and mapping out the local water system of a nearby town, deleting the tapes of a discourse where Osho said, “I would never leave you under a fascist regime”, being asked (or ordered) by one of the ‘mom’s to fuck her, and disabling the electric fence which surrounded Osho’s house one night to allow members of Sheela’s gang to break in with a failed assassination attempt on Vivek. Rajesh wrote that he was unaware of exactly why he was being asked to do those things at the time.

  95. dominic says:

    Believe what you want. Change your mind as often as you want.

    Most gurus are flawed to a greater or lesser degree, though their words and ideals may still inspire.

    Fail code is written into the simulation.

  96. Lokesh says:

    Whenever someone accuses me of something or being something, negative or positive, I have noticed that if I feel it is untrue I just smile or laugh about it, if it is ridiculous enough.

    On the other hand, if I take what has been said seriously, I often pause and consider it because I know that if I am taking something seriously there may be some hidden truth that requires looking at.

    Shanti obviously does not follow suit on this because he sees nothing amiss in taking people’s comments on this site seriously. On top of that, he appears to have a need of foes in order to level criticism at them with his holier-than-thou attitude. If he were confident about his relationship with Osho, whatever that signifies for him, surely he would just laugh about comments he interprets as negative, instead of going all serious about it. Be a joke unto yourself is an Osho slogan that Shanti has not taken on board. He is a very serious man.

  97. swamishanti says:

    @Klaus, your reply to me has been put in the wrong place further at the top of the screen, instead of under my comment. Not sure why this has happened but I noticed that this had happened with some of my comments which ended up lower on the page.

    Anyway, I reproduce it here, underneath my comment, just so it makes sense to anyone who is reading the thread:

    Klaus (Prasanto) says:
    14 January, 2023 at 12:43 pm
    Thanks, Swamishanti, for the response, clarification and info.

    When refering to “the day we got guns” I am not refering to the book, which I read. But I am refering to the build-up: “us with guns” vs. “them with guns”. Imo, this was a wrong stance to take. But then again, it was all part of the shakedown. Gone with the wind.

    I personally have no quarrels about what Osho did and did not do. It is his way of being which is attractive to me.

    You may remember from previous threads that I was quite ‘bhaktified’, too.
    I have become a bit more sobered up and silent in the meantime.

    My inner connections are varied with relations to many.

    Besides, I have never been here to pick fights and/or nits. But learning to stand my ground in a kind of ‘working with it’ manner with the given limitations (my own and others’). But never in a vicious manner.

    See you.

  98. swamishanti says:

    Klaus,

    I also thought that after the death threats addressed to Osho from Oregonians started coming in and the heavy opposition from the US government to building the commune, Osho should have decided to just pack up and leave and go back to India. In India, no one needs guns to protect a commune or an ashram.

    But Osho and Sheela instead decided they needed extra protection which included uzis and handguns.

    I have heard, though, from one of Osho’s household members, that Osho was seriously considering moving back to India around 1983 and Laxmi was called to Lao Tzu house for a meeting to discuss this, and that later she was sent back to India to restart the search for a new commune.

  99. VeetTom says:

    Jesus’s friends wanted him to skip the cross…and he wanted to let this cup pass from him…

    So may we sing:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvih4eVef2c

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