Can SN continue? Annual fees due very soon

We need to find $239 (£211) in the next 2 weeks in order to pay for the annual website fees.

I’m not sure there’ll be enough support for this, especially bearing in mind the site’s output has declined in the last few months. I take my share of responsibility for this although I’ve been short of energy/inspiration for new articles, due to having been through a period of health difficulties until a couple or so weeks ago.

If you want to support SN carrying on then just let us know via an email to edit@sannyasnews.org – no need to donate money until it’s clear that enough will be raised in time.

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141 Responses to Can SN continue? Annual fees due very soon

  1. satchit says:

    You do a great job, SD.
    It’s not because of you that the site has declined.

    What would happen with the archives if SN will be finished?

    Just saw that SN exists since May 2008.
    That would mean now 14 and a half years.

  2. Nityaprem says:

    That’s a fair chunk of change to shelve out annually.

    Just wanted to say, Satyadeva, that you do an excellent job on the site, whatever happens. Let’s hope there are enough people willing to contribute so that the site can carry on.

  3. simond says:

    Nice, guys, that SD is recognised for the work he’s done and for the contributions he has made. I concur that we shall have to see how many are willing to contribute financially to keep the site alive.

    It may also be there aren’t enough willing contributors to maintain a real debate around the articles raised.

    Thanks to you all and best wishes if this is the end.

  4. Klaus says:

    I say “Thank you!” to SD as well.
    You are doing a great job.

    Let’s see how much will be chipped in….

  5. deva sugit says:

    Satchit,

    I will match your contribution.

  6. Ciao,
    For me it would be Fair that the contribution would be from the people who were allowed to work during the pandemic. I have to pay 100 euros of fine because against Mass vaccination, and they ask the same from my mother.

  7. Days ago I was talking to a sannyasin friend about the latest episode of the series ‘Me Too’, by politically correct production, a very cold case, like the ashes of the suspect, showing no signs of guilt or repentance, such a pig.

    Sw. Shiva shared that a man who realizes his Buddhahood and chooses the path of being misunderstood through words instead of silence is doomed to fail, as the words of the Master do not flow like those of those who hide the realization of their own inner revolution; compassion is the same, only expectations around change, more difficult to create these through silence.

    This Forum, that lives on the expectations created by the words of the Master, has roughly 3 types of visitors, excluding the trolls:

    1) Those who…thanks to Osho
    2) Those who…Osho who? The one “sex, drugs and Indian classical music?”
    3) Those who…despite Osho (very few here)

    It seems clear to me that the first category, active on this forum, is a minority, probably the one that has so far contributed to the management costs of the website, which further exposes them to be ridiculed by the other two categories of commentators.

    Now there is a further reason for conflict, represented by a new category, transversal to the other 3: Those who..there is a pandemic, stop breathing and trust in the new religion, SCIENCE (by big pharma).

    Judging from what happens on this Forum it could be concluded that Osho has failed to transmit the seed of the rebellion of the new man, the one who affirms his dignity in thinking with his own head and feeling with his heart.

    Not having recognized the phenomenon of collective hypnosis to which we have been subject in these 3 years, it seems, not only for me, by a now global deep state, makes communication in this Forum even more problematic, but which would be very simple if one used the method of not identifying with words, remaining playful, practising intellectual honesty in recognizing one’s intellectual limits…in short, simply, if we were inspired by the miracle of those peaks and valleys of celebration experienced in our community these last 70 years, thanks to or despite Osho.

    MOD:
    “these last 70 years” (last line of your post), Veet F? More like 50 years, for non-Indians anyway?

    • satyadeva says:

      VF, I think your categories of visitors to SN are misplaced, that the first group are by far the majority.

      As for those who visit but don’t comment, who knows?

      • SD, I’d be happily wrong then, although the number of comments seems to say something different, along the years.

        It could depend on the fact that the iconoclasts, politically correct friends are very prolific here, completely surrendered to their dimension of good and fluent writers, in the comfort zone of their mother tongue.

    • SD, non-Indians here shared that 50 years ago in India they found already a community of Osho lovers, it wasn’t so bad.

      MOD:
      Sure, but my point was re non-Indians who only started to arrive over there in large numbers and to create communities in their own countries in 1975/76.

    • Klaus says:

      VF

      I can confirm from my side that your a.m. comment is certainly going ‘beyond my intellectual limits’. Some of the words you apply I would even have to look up their exact definition and use in a dictionary or wiki. However, it seems to me that you are using the words quite fittingly!

      Does one need to be antagonistic in order ‘to feel oneself as a rebel’?

      I chose to be vaccinqaed. I most of the time wore a mask; when 2-3 times I did not, I caught the virus. Ok.

      Never did I challenge the right of another person to follow their own ways. Was it instinct? Was it a just and fair ‘rebellion’?

      For me: so what? You choose for yourself, I choose for myself. Thank you very much.

      Keep on rebelling. Cheerio.

      P.S:
      I hope this does not end in self- and or other-hypnosis.

      • Klaus, I can confirm that my a.m. comment is certainly the result of my intellectual and linguistic limitations, however, if I don’t send the 5pm pastry down the wrong way to dear SD, it is possible that google translate is suggesting words quite fittingly!

        I don’t know if feeling like a rebel is your need, it’s certainly not mine, I prefer celebration and sharing, so what to do with the choices of those who have a repressive and antagonistic approach to my lifestyle, the result of a vision of life founded on the teachings of Osho? For example, until I recognize the value of the things that certain politically correct narratives would like to protect, at the price of limiting my or others’ freedom, it comes naturally to me not to conform, challenging the possibility of being identified with the village fool of the mainstream narrative.

        In this case, the rebellion is a secondary effect of the testimony in being myself, not an egoic need to adhere to a certain nonconformist image of me.

        If unlike me you have no doubts about the effectiveness of vaccines, do not cure the doubts that billions of village idiots have or begin to have about the early (heart problems of young athletes) and strange post-vaccination deaths, the important thing is to have saved elderly people like you from the winter cold.

        Do not go off-topic, it is not about your right to get vaccinated but about your right not to. By vaccinating you signed and encouraged the narrative that deprived billions of people of the right not to get vaccinated, forced to get vaccinated not because they were convinced like you of the efficacy of gene serums but because they were subjected to the many blackmails implicit in the green pass.

        Do not blame me if to rule, the rulers have divided the population in two on how to take care of their own body, you are on the side of those who consider it normal that the multi-national drug companies, through their legislative butlers, enter your body every time they want.

        When you sleep there is no need for hypnosis.

        • satyadeva says:

          I have the impression Italy is particularly oppressive re its covid vax policy, although I know people there who refuse to have it, like you, Veet F.

          Over here in the UK it’s been much looser though for a while proof of vaccination was previously required for access to certain places, eg night clubs, football matches etc.

          • SD, yes, it is possible that here they stressed too much our limts of “quiet desperation”, but also there I have seen a lot of people on the streets and squares.

            • satyadeva says:

              Here’s why one of our generous donors has contributed towards SN’s survIval:

              “The one thing that Sannyasnews has meant to me amongst other things was that it permitted the freedom of comments in the Sannyas community.

              To me there has been a problem of Sannyasin therapists who seemed to care more about their own pocket books rather than spreading Osho’s love. When Sannyas News posted articles about Veeresh (I myself do not know where Veeresh himself REALLY stood with Osho) we got both positive and negative comments about him, which was good.

              I myself would not prevent myself from going to the Humaniversity but through contributors to Sannyas News I would be able to see the pitfalls of the place. Otherwise, what you would hear about the place would be only positive with people only reluctant to discuss the negative.”

              • swamishanti says:

                ‘Generous donor’ said, “I don’t know myself where Veeresh really stood with Osho..”

                Well, I know that Osho asked Veeresh to come into Lao Tzu house for a photoshoot in 1989, and whenever Osho asked for a photoshoot, he wanted to communicate something.

                For example, he knew that a photoshoot of himself under the influence of nitrous oxide would be shocking and help to give an easy way out for some of the hangers on who were not really close to him spiritually.

                People are gullible and are easily manipulated.

                A collection of Rollers will easily put many off and a photo of your guru wearing a nitrous oxide mask and saying ‘I have to pretend I am enlightened’ , ‘I am again an unenlightened man’, recorded by your dentist would be enough to make your guru look like a fraud and cause you serious doubts or, make you want to leave. Unless you trust your master or remember his earlier Pune One talks of masters using ‘devices.’

                Veeresh later said he became enlightened during the photoshoot in 1989, which was right at the end of Osho’s life, (pictures below), although some sannyasins already considered him enlightened. Perhaps Osho knew he was ripe and helped to push him over the edge.
                Osho had said in 1987:

                “Just the other day I said a few words about Veeresh, one of the most sincere, honest and authentic therapists. And just now as I entered I saw him again. He was crying just like a child, with utter joy.
                These tears are my creation.
                They will not be recorded in any history book, but they will transform many who will come in contact with him. With his tears he has bridged his heart with my heart, his being with my being. He is one of the silent workers who go on doing, without bragging about anything. “ OSHO – ‘Satyam, Shivam, Sunderam’

                About people’s experiences at the Humaniversity I cannot comment much, but I noticed the Humaniversity has been mentioned online on a Christian anti-cult forum, and their is also a Facebook page ‘Beware of Humaniversity’ , possibly set up by someone who had a negative experience.
                I never visited the Humaniversity but, know quite a few sannyasins that have and got a lot out of their time there and speak highly of their work under Veeresh’s supervision.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Note, the late Veeresh. He left his body 27th January, 2015.

                • Lokesh says:

                  I can’t say that I really knew Veeresh that well. I did one of his Aum Marathons back in the seventies. I started smoking cigarettes after the group for the first time in my life. In retrospect the group was a bit of a joke, but it was intense.

                  Last time Veeresh visited Ibiza I hung out with him for an afternoon and helped him shop for painting materials. I liked Veeresh. He was a good man. Enlightened? That word reached its sell-by date decades ago and I did not have the impression Veeresh was in any way enlightened. He was good at what he did and that is enough for me. I see no need to build a fairytale around the man.

                  Much in the same way that I have no need to romanticise the sex lives of native Americans. They might have had a more casual stance in regards their sexual practices but, for the most part, were a pretty bloodthirsty lot who enjoyed nothing better than taking scalps in warfare. Many of the Indian tribes treated their enemies brutally and were very ingenious when it came to inventing torture techniques to practise on their captives.

                  You say, People are gullible and are easily manipulated.” Do you include yourself amongst those people? Because it certainly sounds like you should.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Yes, NP, the late Veeresh.

                  Native American tribes were not living a peaceful form of anarchism. They depended on animals for their food, clothes, homes, etc. and fought with other tribes, and all tribes were not able to live collectively in peace, at least not for long.

                  Anarchists generally believe in an ideal of pacifism and sharing, and living communally, in self-sufficient communities, without the state. They are often wrongly associated with violence.

                  Yet the Native Americans shared everything and lived in harmony with nature, and respected sexuality as a gift, with none of the unhealthy repression and guilt trips around sex which the Christian missionaries brought to the Americas.
                  I respect their spirituality, which accepts the totality, the earth as much as the sky.

                  When I wrote people are “gullible and easily manipulated”, it was not a derogatory statement. It was mainly something I learned working in sales and marketing, talking to hundreds of people everyday and learning the tricks of the trade.

                  If I mention sadhus smoking chillums on SN, or provide a photo of a large mushroom I found in nature, some people will start to believe that I am also doing that despite having no interest for many years.

                  If I mention that the late Barefoot Doctor (Stephen Russell) was accused of being a ‘sexual predator’, some women will start to imagine that he was a dirty old bastard and a sex pest. In fact, he was just a down to earth enlightened guy who enjoyed women and life.
                  A ‘Zorba the Buddha’ type , a who celebrated the body, and music. He gave satsangs towards the end of his life, he was a compassionate man with some good Taoist techniques and wisdom to share.

                • Klaus says:

                  Lokesh,

                  You are putting the record straight. And balanced.
                  Plus personal info.
                  Always helpful to the view one has.

                  Just went through some mind/heart trip regarding the (wish plus longing for) availability of sex at one’s fingertips this weekend…started Saturday morning – ended this morning.

                  Boy, what a hang-up. Just from seeing a picture and sending a few – ewww empathic messages…what a crush running full force.

                  Now it is gone. WuffWuff.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Sex is fine when it comes naturally, but in so many people it becomes a compulsion. It’s important to keep yourself free of that, to not let what is natural become an addiction, whether it is to food, sex, or some other disorder. It is an essential part of staying relaxed, open and free.

                • Klaus says:

                  swamishanti says:
                  7 November, 2022 at 2:56 pm

                  Found this on Stephen Russell, the Barefoot Doctor:

                  https://www.archiedunlop.com/2020/02/06/death-of-a-healer-stephen-russell-the-barefoot-doctor/

                  I haven’t heard of him before. So no idea who he was and is.

                • swamishanti says:

                  @Klaus, interesting. I also have Venus in Scorpio and Leo rising.
                  I read a couple of his books and I liked his style. He was a good teacher.

                  He said he started hearing the sound of Om when he was six.

                  Here’s a short interview with him:

                  https://youtu.be/0hqYHhG6Zwg

                • Klaus says:

                  swamishanti
                  7 November, 2022 at 10:38 pm

                  Ah, astrology is far too complex for me…I have my chart but can’t make anything of it
                  I just go: “What??!!”

                • satyadeva says:

                  ‘Generous donor’ continues:

                  Also dishonest sannyasin therapists are only half the problem.

                  You also have sannyasin gangs who are fanatical about certain sannyasin leaders and therapists sometimes to a point where Osho seems to be only secondary to them. I think that is fair to say that Veeresh is one of these adulated sannyasins.

                  These sannyasins who have fanatical ideas about a certain sannyasin leader viciously attack and bully other sannyasins who do not subscribe to their view points. These bullies invalidate the truth of other sannyasins who did not have such a good experience with that leader.

                  Sannyasins who want to share with others not only positive experiences but also the negative experiences of an adulated sannyasin leader will find herself or himself attacked. The sannyasins who make bad comments will be told that it is ALL THEIR fault that the group went badly with the leader. Bad rumours such as a person having mental problems will be spread about them and they might be banished from all sannyasin venues. So meeting close sannyasin friends will be impossible. So these sannyasins will be isolated. So what happens is that only positive comments circulate about these adulated leaders which of course always works in favour of these leaders. They can do all the bad things without anyone saying anything.

                  Prior to looking at Sannyasnews, I heard always through the word of mouth of people who went to the Humaniversity that the place was absolutely wonderful (the only exception is that one fellow told me that he thought it was only a cult but he only spent an hour there). It was only through Sannyasnews and a few other websites that I found negative comments about the Humaniversity.

                  A person who does prospective therapy groups must be armed with both positive and negative information so that that person will make a good choice for himself or herself when selecting therapists for individual sessions or groups. A person who wants to make an informed choice will find this an impossible task if other people prevent the free flow of information.

                  I understand that at the Humaniversity it does not refund even a penny if a person starts a group there and decides that she or he does not like it even if that person is only five minutes into the group and some groups there cost thousands of dollars. So this is why this is so important.

                  So a million thanks to Sannyasnews.

                • Klaus says:

                  ‘Generous donor’,

                  Yes, we have to see two sides of the coin.

                  On SN I especially appreciated the outrageous remarks of Anand Yogi.

                  One could see clearly one’s hang-ups only on ‘the positive’. And walking over oneself in sheer ignorance.

                  Huge benefits for me!

                • swamishanti says:

                  ‘Large Donor kebab’, sannyasnews might not be the best place to get feedback about the Humaniversity.

                  Satyadeva shared that he once had a bad group experience with another group leader, Somendra (Michael Barnett), yet many other people had life-changing experiences in his groups.

                  It is a bit like reviews on Amazon, I always read them before buying a product. But there are often more bad reviews than good just because most people who were pleased with the product coudn’t be bothered to write a review, whereas those who were angry or displeased want to complain.

                  I know that there are many people who had very positive, life-changing results from Humaniversity groups but none of them have written on here.

                  I remember a thread where Parmartha said he wouldn’t go near Humaniversity but perhaps he never felt the need to or was put off by something he heard. And Alok John complained about his group experience there.
                  Not everyone will be happy.

                  Just like there are many sannyasins who get so much out of Osho and whose lives have been transformed, they do not doubt their master. They don’t write on sannyasnews yet on SN in more recent times you are more likely to find people who doubt or believe it was all a con ie Anand Yogi.

                  Or a Shantam Prem who also believes it was all a con and decided to suck up to Ma Sheela’s brown North Indian milk titties which he first became excited by when he saw her posing in a centrefold spread in 1984.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Anand Yogi is/was a spoof, often providing hilarious slices of satirical brilliance (in my and many others’ opinions). Surely you realise this, SS?!

                  And Shantam Prem used to wax lyrical about his ‘golden years’ in Pune 2, before “the bloody westerners with Indian names” spoiled his party by taking over the ashram after Osho left his body, freezing out him and his fellow-Indians in the process (or so he framed it).

                  He too provided much humour here, albeit mostly unconsciously, while also showing how sincere but naive devotion can turn into resentment and blame when circumstances don’t meet personal expectations.

                  As for therapy (etc.) groups run by the likes of Somendra, the Humaniversity and others, of course they’ve benefited many, although they were and are most certainly not guaranteed to help everyone, the 3 months course run by Somendra that I attended being flawed from the start, beginning with the nonsensical and dangerous notion that it was suitable for “everyone”, whatever their condition, ending with quite a few participants getting very little or nothing from it, or even, like me, being even more ‘damaged’ by the end – and all for a considerable financial outlay.

                  That’s why, as ‘Generous Donor’ has said, not only should participants be carefully vetted, but space for discussion of potential and previously experienced dangers is necessary and should not be censored.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Yes, Anand Yogi was sometimes very funny and I appreciate humour. But I think that that kind of level of intense mistrust of Osho may not be quite as amusing or resonate much to people who are into Osho outside of our little group as you might imagine.

                  As far as Shantam Prem is concerned he came on here around 2008 concerned about changes to the Pune ashram/commune which was fair enough. But then perhaps his innocence became ‘corrupted’ by some of the writers on the site a little and he started to believe it was all a con. Perhaps that was why he empathises with Sheela as she also seems to think it was all a con – and she shares his dislike of the Westerners who lived around Osho.

                  He sometimes appears a little over-identified with his nationality. And he wrongly assumes that Westerners are more gullible than Indians. Not so – seasoned Western travellers are all too aware of Indian scams and attempts to extract money from ‘foreigners’.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shanti, you write:
                  “Yes, Anand Yogi was sometimes very funny and I appreciate humour. But I think that that kind of level of intense mistrust of Osho may not be quite as amusing or resonate much to people who are into Osho outside of our little group as you might imagine.”

                  You’ve unknowingly provided an idea for an article, a discussion/debate along the lines of whether Anand Yogi’s brand of satirically comic absurdity is amusing or resonates with or perhaps is even considered ‘appropriate’ for sannyasins.

                  I’ll see if I can get in touch with the author who might want to assist with choosing a few examples of his work, although I suspect he might still be on his travels.

                  As for your suggestion that perhaps Shantam’s “innocence became ‘corrupted’ by some of the writers on the site a little and he started to believe it was all a con”, I reckon that’s a pretty preposterous notion, barely worth a passing thought.

                  Apart from anything else, you seem to have forgotten that he was routinely ridiculed here, fighting a one-man online battle for many years, with a rather thick hide to boot (pun not intended although it works!).

                  And he’d already placed himself in an unenviable life situation by emigrating to Germany where his marriage collapsed and where he was stuck due to financial reasons, with no prospect of ‘living happily ever after’ at the ashram, which had long been his dream. And ending up blaming “the whites” for it all.

                • Klaus says:

                  SS,

                  Looking at both sides of the coin does not mean to ‘only see the negative’ and ‘to negate the positive’.

                  Both sides.

                  We all (I guess) have done groups and meditation retreats and therapies and I do not know what. And each person has had individual experiences to learn from (good and bad).

                  Looking at both sides imv helps to see the traps (group think, spiritual bypassing etc. etc.). And understand/learn directly (one way of learning). Or fall into them still all the same. And learn later (another way of learning).

                  No ill will here. What would it be good for?

                • swamishanti says:

                  You could make an article out of it but it would only attract comments from the few contributors who appreciate Anand Yogi in this little bubble of SN.

                  SN is currently ignored by the majority of sannyasins across the globe.

                  As far SP is concerned, I observed his attitude changing over the years, in the beginning he was enthusiastic about Osho and Sannyas, later becoming more cynical and losing his trust. That was my impression anyhow.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Yes, Shanti, SP’s attitude deteriorated all right but it was clearly due to the increasing realisation that his situation was hope-less, his external life mediocre at best and his dream of a new beginning as some sort of Pune ashram ‘vip’ doomed.

                  To assign even partial blame to a few contributors at SN for his reaction to his unenviable predicament comes across as a gratuitously naive, flawed attempt to make something fit your own pre-existing agenda.

                • satyadeva says:

                  SN needs ideas for new articles. Do you, Shanti, or anyone else, have anything to offer?

                  Not necessarily a written piece, just ideas to work with would be fine.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I’ll try to think of some. Perhaps, why does OIF feel it is necessary to remove all videos from YouTube with beautiful pieces of live music in Osho’s presence, and other rare pieces, such as videos of Osho visiting his new ‘bedroom’ in Pune Two or riding a speedboat around Krishnamurti Lake in Rajneeshpuram.

                • swamishanti says:

                  I don’t agree with your analysis of his situation.

                  You spent a good deal of energy arguing with and attacking him, which went on going round and round in circles in strings on SN for years. It got pretty tedious and boring at times .I don’t think it really made him change his ideas about anything. I don’t think he would ever want to change his ideas because of aggro from a few SN contributors. In fact it may have made him more adamant on his own stand.

                  I put forward a couple of points to him but was never as much interested in arguing with him as yourself.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Shanti, as I’ve said, to say SN writers helped to “corrupt” Shantam’s “innocence” is just utter nonsense. You confuse foolishness with “innocence” and straight talking with ‘corruption’ – we’re talking about a middle-aged man, by the way!

                  Biased, wishful thinking on your part.

                • swamishanti says:

                  They corrupted his innocence. They took his cherry. I remember the video of Osho arriving at Dehli airport at 3am back from the US and hundreds of Indian sannyasins waiting outside. Shantam Prem was there in his orange turban. The innocent young Sikh sannyasin.

                  That video used to be on YouTube and Parmartha made an article featuring it on SN.
                  But Klaus Steeg took it down. Why does he feel the need to take all the most beautiful and rare videos featuring Osho away from YouTube.

                  There was a video featuring Swami Ashok Bharti singing at the Sumila complex in Bombay.

                  Before Osho came in to give discourse. A long Indian bhajan. Beautiful.

                  But Klaus Steeg took it down. Why does OFI do this?

                • swamishanti says:

                  In my experience, there is is nothing more romantic than waking up in a tipi – sleeping on a bed of sheepskins. In the summer of course.

              • Lokesh says:

                Hi Klaus,

                Since the emergence of stories detailing women’s weird sexual encounters with Osho, many old-school sannyasins had to reassess what their trip with Osho was all about because he certainly was not what he appeared to be.

                To somehow imagine that Osho’s taking weird concoctions of cheapo drugs, driving around in a fleet of luxury cars, buying glittering watches that broke the commune’s coffers, and fiddling about with women’s lower chakras in the middle of the night, were all devices for your awakening, is strictly for the classroom dummies. What has any of that to do with spiritual awakening? Nothing. If you need that kind of nonsense to wake you up, you must be in a coma. Certainly, there were lessons to be learned, much of which were coincidental.

                It says much for Osho’s power over people in that some folk still cling to some cherished image they carry of Osho, no matter how tarnished it may appear to others. This misses entirely the whole point of being around such a man. Remember, the real master is not the one who gathers the most disciples, but rather the one who creates the most masters in their own right. Osho was all for the individual. He did not particularly like sheep. Yet they flocked around him.

                • swamishanti says:

                  SN is seen as a bit of an ‘anti-Osho’ site by many sannyasins at large.
                  Comments such as Lokesh’s above, demonstrate such a real distrust of Osho. Lokesh was conned.
                  Although he wasn’t actually at the Ranch or at Pune Two.

                  Osho’s devices were not for awakening but they were designed to create doubts, and for other reasons by Osho. For those who were/are really merging into Osho there is no doubt.

                  Osho was quite open and honest when he was asked about his sexual activity with women at the Ranch. And just as well too, otherwise we would have been stuck with some of the old ideals of purity and holier-than-thou repressive spirituality.

                  Lokesh, Frank with doubts have convinced themselves that they know better than everyone else.

                  Whatever Osho said on the master-disciple relationship, he must be lying. It’s all a big con.

                  Sannyasins could be creating their experiences. If they felt anything all those years ago that could be imagination.

                  One of the most interesting interactions for me was when Ozen Rajneesh’s group were active on the site briefly around about 2012.

                  There we had young and old sannyasins close to Osho, in the here and now. Whose presence was not tolerated by Frank and others. And thus Anand Yogi was born.
                  Still, there were some good arguments which did provide good entertainment.

                  But all in all, no one is really willing to entertain or fund the site because of the distrust of Osho to the point of paranoia.

                  A few Christians love wanking off to it, ex-sannyasins drop in and feel better about their own failures, but most sannyasins have left long ago.

                  I have still enjoyed the experience with our small group. Yahoo.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “Osho was quite open and honest when he was asked about his sexual activity with women at the Ranch. And just as well too, otherwise we would have been stuck with some of the old ideals of purity and holier-than-thou repressive spirituality.”

                  Then what do you make of Osho telling Erin not to divulge their liaisons in Pune 2?

                • swamishanti says:

                  I remember that Ozen’s lot from Ozen Cocom in Mexico offered to help run the site after Parmartha’s departure. Perhaps they should be given a go, that would inject some Sannyas energy into the site, as well as providing some good arguments.

                  I don’t favour the way Ozen has reportedly changed the original music for dynamic and kundalini, as Osho told Deuter he didn’t want the music to be changed. And I have no idea whether Ozen is enlightened. And don’t necessarily agree with whatever views he has.

                  But at least, with the thousands of young sannyasins who are into Ozen Rajneesh, as well as some old nuts, could produce some real activity on the site.

                  Here’s a recent video from his commune:

                  https://youtu.be/7s9vY_QSAog

                • Klaus says:

                  In the beginnings of the data processing age there was a concept called ‘WYSIWYG’ – ‘What You See Is What You Get’ (ie what you see on the screen will be the same as what is printed).

                  With Osho, imv, it is similar: what you can see inside is what you get from the experience(s).

                  I see a lot of similarities or parallels in the spiritual process:
                  items appear on the screen – the printout cannot look the same: words and concepts.
                  Besides, the items appearing in IT disappear when you disconnect electricity.

                  On the mental screen the items also disappear.
                  In the Tibetan meditation practice of ‘creation meditation’ the thanka picture is re-created in the mind/heart.
                  At the end it is fully dissolved so that one rests “in the original nature” (of mind, consciousness or..) –
                  seeing the emptiness in the phenomena created.

                  To me, the end of this meditation feels like a total sobriety. We have to let go of so many things. Attachments. Wishful thinking.
                  Osho meditations do the same: from activity to receptivity.

                  “Coming down is the hardest thing, when learning to fly.”
                  - Tom Petty.

                  Bringing the kid to school, accepting trouble with the teachers, feeling estranged from family responsiblities and its limitations.

                  Carry on carrying water. Love and celebrate life still.

                  Possibly that is the ‘integration’ of Sannyas. Not the end of it.

                • satchit says:

                  Good that you find so many reasons that Osho is not the one he appeared to be, Lokesh.

                  Funny, that I remember that you once said, he is the most intelligent man you ever met. Lol

                • Klaus says:

                  Imv, Lokesh detected that:

                  Osho was not only the most intelligent man he ever met, but he also was….

                  It comes as a parcel which contains a multitude of this and that and I dont know what….

                • Lokesh says:

                  SS says, “Osho was quite open and honest when he was asked about his sexual activity with women at the Ranch.”
                  I would like to hear a couple of examples concerning Osho’s honesty on this matter.

                  SS, for whatever reasons, you totally misinterpret a lot of what I say on this site. I’m not in the least anti-Osho. But I am anti-sheep and parrots.

                • satchit says:

                  The question is, Klaus, can somebody who is surrendered to the Whole, meaning being enlightened, do something evil?

                  I would say No.
                  We cannot judge him with our moral ego standards.

                  Basically the Total wants him to do the things, whatever comes.

                • Klaus says:

                  Satchit,

                  Judging is mostly hindsight. And it is conditioned by sociological circumstances.

                  My reaction mostly is Oh, acha. Sometimes Ewww.
                  Sometimes none.

                  I vote ‘abstain’.

                  We can’t even tell if it was or is natural or not. Things happen.

                  Loved him wildly, cried for the loss.

                  Remember ‘I am not as thunk as you drink I am!’

                  I am not so thunk anymore, too. A bit sober.

                • Klaus says:

                  Lokesh says:
                  8 November, 2022 at 8:29 am

                  “I hae seen the hielands – I hae seen the low” – Charlie Zahm
                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJJW2bmwgTU&list=PLUUjWYziy2L8zVXi7l9SIH8d8aHku8-Up

                  P.S:
                  Just for the title…we have come a long way…

                  Cheers. Another musical day….

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Lokesh says, “I’m anti-sheep and parrots.”

                  What have the poor animals ever done to deserve your dislike, Lokesh? Surely they have a right to exist as well?

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Klaus said, “We can’t even tell if it was or is natural or not. Things happen.”

                  I think that’s a key point in the whole Erin affair. We don’t really know exactly what was going on.

                  It did change something for me, to picture Osho asking Erin and Vivek to have lesbian sex in front of him late at night. It’s not something that fits with how I imagined an enlightened man might behave. But that’s just my reaction, on a level deeper than thought.

                  Still, I’ve decided not to judge. Osho too was only human, and allowed a few peccadillos.

                • satchit says:

                  Klaus, sober is good.

                  Just drinking, eating, sleeping – zen style!

                • satchit says:

                  Yeah, NP, sheep are strange animals.

                  Sometimes they think, “All the others are sheep, me not!”

                • swamishanti says:

                  If Erin’s story is credible – and there are certainly parts of it that are blatantly untrue; for example, she claims Osho wanted to kill anyone who spoke out about it. This is a lie and it is possible this woman is working for someone else’s agenda. You don’t have to look far to see there are powerful forces still trying to undermine Osho, who still consider him a real threat – if she did indeed have a sexual relationship with Osho, he certainly did the right thing in asking her to keep quiet about it.

                  There were thousands of sannyasin women who would have done anything to have a sexual experience with Osho and if anyone who did get that spoke loudly about it there would have been a lot of jealousy.

                  Besides which, Osho’s sex life was his private business.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Rather than “working for someone else’s agenda” it’s at least equally, and I think more plausible that Erin was simply expressing a radical feminist agenda, fuelled by what she sees as abuse of male power.

                  How accurate this perception is no one can know, of course. But if she was as disappointed, as disillusioned as she says, what better way of expressing her failed hopes and dreams than to publicly expose the ‘perpetrator’s failings?

                  Yes, one can say that Osho’s sex life was his private business, like anyone else’s in fact. But would you have said this if women had come forward with gratitude for how wonderful, how transformative their experiences with him had been? I suggest not, that you say it because it suits you.

                • swamishanti says:

                  Lokesh, I have little interest in Osho’s sex life. I have much more important issues in my life to get on with.
                  I leave interest in Osho’s sex life to uptight Catholics.

                  Osho answered questions about his sex life at the Ranch – they can be read in those books.
                  At the time this shocked some sannyasins, and some will have left.

                  Two examples:

                  “Love becomes just like any game: playing cards, playing tennis…I have loved many women, and I am the first enlightened person in the world who is being absolutely truthful to you. You could have never found out whether I am celibate or not. I thought, although I have not said I am celibate, you would consider me a celibate…

                  But one fact I have proved absolutely and forever – that making love does not destroy enlightenment.
On the contrary, it makes it richer, more beautiful – new flowers in it, new colours in it, new fragrances in it, new laughter, new smiles. The whole idea that the enlightened man cannot make love is absolutely wrong.”
                  (‘From Death to Deathlessness’)

                  “All these people were fulfilling the desires of their followers. I don’t care a bit what you expect; that is your problem. I am going to shatter all your expectations of me. I am totally a free man. I don’t care even about whether you think me enlightened or not. I am, why should I care..?’

                  …and I have loved many women – my enlightenment has not changed. I have created a historical event! In the future, no enlightened man should be expected to be celibate. I have risked much. But in a way, after enlightenment something is transcended – it is not sex, but sexuality. After enlightenment I have not been able to look into the eyes of any woman with sexuality.

                  It is nothing on my part, I cannot take the credit for it. The whole experience of enlightenment has changed many things. Even making love to a woman is now totally different, absolutely different, has no connection with the love when I was unenlightened. It was not love, it was just a biological, chemical, hormonal attraction. It was just a kind of slavery; it was a need, and you were possessed by the need. That need has disappeared. Now making love to a woman is just pure fun – and I have never heard that after enlightenment fun is transcended.”
                  (‘From the False to the Truth’)

                  And there are more. Osho certainly wasn’t the first enlightened man to be having sex with multiple partners, but he was the first to speak to the world media about it.

                  Which is a positive thing in my view, otherwise we would have been stuck with some of the old religious limitations that have dominated humanity with expectations of monogamy/celibacy.

                  Those values are cherished by the modern society which in turn has been fed those ideas and controlled by certain religions and vested interests.

                  Their control is now coming to an end.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Perhaps, SS, you “have little interest in Osho’s sex life” because there are very few or no first-hand accounts from women that confirm what he says, only Erin having gone into details, which are hardly inspiring, and even on the seedy side. Is that what being “an ordinary man” is intended to convey? I hope not.

                  I agree that sex is a private affair (no pun intended!) but it would help clear the air on this topic if only some women would come forward and provide a totally different, positive feeling re their experiences.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Osho said:
                  “The whole experience of enlightenment has changed many things. Even making love to a woman is now totally different, absolutely different, has no connection with the love when I was unenlightened. It was not love, it was just a biological, chemical, hormonal attraction. It was just a kind of slavery; it was a need, and you were possessed by the need. That need has disappeared. Now making love to a woman is just pure fun – and I have never heard that after enlightenment fun is transcended.” (From Swamishanti, Nov. 8, 4.27pm)

                  Impressive, beautiful.

                  Just curious, but one thing puzzles me a little, the suggestion here that Osho, before realising enlightenment at age 21, in March 1953, enjoyed a pretty active sex life in late 1940s/early 1960s India, where, as far as I know, ‘sexual freedom’ (and contraception) was barely an option. And where, according to him, much of his time and energy was taken up with a profound spiritual search, culminating in a lengthy period of running at least 8 miles a day in order to keep himself ‘grounded’ while internal upheavals were taking place.

                  Was he ever more specific re these circumstances?

                • Nityaprem says:

                  SS, I think Erin is within her rights to talk about her sex life with Osho, she was as involved in it as he was. Publicly, if she chooses, and that does make it a bit our business.

                  The #MeToo movement has made it trendy to come out with these things, but I don’t see any reason to doubt that what she says is true. Rather, I think that Osho was keeping secrets to the point that he was consciously manipulating his image. It’s not very enlightened behaviour.

                • swamishanti says:

                  NP, there are things that Erin said which are definitely untrue. As I mentioned before.
                  I would be wary of believing everything you read.

                  “Rather, I think that Osho was keeping secrets to the point that he was consciously manipulating his image. It’s not very enlightened behaviour.”

                  Osho consciously manipulating his image?
                  Getting photoshoots of himself sitting in the dental chair under the influence of nitrous oxide?
                  Huge collections of Rolls Royce cars?
                  Osho didn’t give a shit about that the wider world thought about him, NP, in fact he enjoyed provoking and shocking people, and created situations to help clear space around him and find his people who would be most benefited through working with him.

                  He only started to care a bit that people believed he may be involved in Sheela’s groups crimes, after a couple of books came out that written by people who believed he may have been involved.

                  He didn’t want to be associated with those crimes, and rightly so as he was innocent and had exposed them. Thus he asked for books to be written to set the historical record straight.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  SS, you have to learn to read between the lines a bit.

                  I don’t see what reason Erin might have to lie about any part of her testimonial. She stands to lose a lot, and doesn’t have anything to gain. She might be mistaken about some things, that’s true, but I don’t think she would outright lie.

                  Osho did some very crazy things. I know some sannyasins who were very close to him in Poona 1, and even spent time with him at the tail end of the Ranch, and there was one story about his frame of mind after watching a Nostradamus movie which would make you seriously doubt how stable he was.

                • swamishanti says:

                  In her story she made it look like he would kill anyone who spoke about it, the alleged sexual relationship. This is a blatant lie. She was well aware of what she was doing by depicting in this way. If you believe this is true and still regard Osho as a master worth spending your daily time pondering over you must be crazy yourself.

                  I would have nothing more to do with it if I believed any spiritual master was like that. It is possible, yet unlikely, she got the wrong idea, Sheela was said to have a hit-list of people she wanted to get rid of at the Ranch, but all long-term sannyasins who lived through the Ranch and Pune Two know the story of that.

                  The details of the ‘hit-list’ are also available in Maneesha James’s ‘Osho: The Buddha For The Future’ and the other two books in her trilogy, ‘Osho: Twelve Days that Shook The World’ and ‘Osho: One Man Against the Whole Ugly Past of Humanity’. Those books also had input from members of Sheela’s gang who returned to the commune again. And are presently in the process of being updated. Sheela’s ‘hit-list’ is also mentioned in some of Sheelas gangs testimonies to the FBI. But this woman would have known that this was nothing to do with Osho. Especially as some of those on the list were members of Osho’s own household, his dentist, doctor, and girlfriend/caretaker Vivek, and others such as Ma Yoga Laxmi.

                  It seems highly unlikely that a long-term disciple who had lived in all three communes would believe that Osho wanted to kill sannyasins, or used hypnosis in the way that she hinted. Unless she was a bit nuts herself.

                • swamishanti says:

                  If Osho’s lovers wanted to talk about their sex life with Osho you would surely get a very different picture, SD, just as if all the women who had intimate relationships with the Barefoot Doctor wanted to speak about it, they would not be depicting him as a “sexual predator”.

                  Subhuti reported talking to a couple of women who claimed to have ‘played’ with Osho.

                  If Vivek had written an intimate book, it would have been a positive one.
                  And being devoted to him, she knew his ordinary, human side better than anyone else, as well as the Godliness in him and powerful Buddha presence . I’m sure her book would have been most interesting, and according to her boyfriend Devakant she did want to write one.

                  What we do have is the books of several long-term sannyasin women who lived close to Osho, who are grateful, with more to come, as well as several long-term female disciples who were with Osho from the very beginning, whose lives have been transformed from their contact with Osho, who are now continuing that transmission by teaching Tantra to others.
                  Osho’s presence has been reported to be felt around some of these women.

                  Tantra and tantric attitudes are becoming more popular these days with younger seekers.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Well, that sounds good, SS.

                  Although ‘tantra’ is a term very often misused by would-be practitioners and exponents these days, either to make money or to enhance their chances of having sex – or both!

                • Klaus says:

                  Satchit
                  8 November, 2022
                  at 8:56 am

                  “…enlightened person…do something evil….”

                  Actually, it is not a moral question of good or evil, imo.

                  Whatever an enlightened person does, it will have no effect on him/her.
                  In the sense of becoming depressed or making new mental imprints.

                  He/she, imo, lives 24/7 in a no-mind state. And won’t be pulled out of it.

                  It may have effects on the people (the me) involved.
                  For them / me involved it may be a painful point and/or a learning point.

                  Me, for instance, gave away (far) too much money for healing work(s). A painful learning point. I could have stood up for myself more clearly and strongly. A shortcoming at that time.

                  But that is what I do now….

                • Klaus says:

                  Addition:

                  Whatever an enlightened person does…”

                  However, some of what he/she does may be illegal. That’s possible, too.

                • swamishanti says:

                  @SD: “Just curious, but one thing puzzles me a little, the suggestion here that Osho, before realising enlightenment at age 21, in March 1953, enjoyed a pretty active sex life in late 1940s/early 1960s India, where, as far as I know, ‘sexual freedom’ (and contraception) was barely an option. And where, according to him, much of his time and energy was taken up with a profound spiritual search, culminating in a lengthy period of running at least 8 miles a day in order to keep himself ‘grounded’ while internal upheavals were taking place.

                  Was he ever more specific re these circumstances?”

                  Well, SD, Osho mentioned that he had a girlfriend, ‘Sashi’, at around age 15, but she died of typhoid, promising that she would come back to look after him.
                  He was later to recognise her in Vivek.

                  Ghyan Bhed has written that Osho’s grandmother, who originated from one of the small villages around Khajuraho, used to give the young Raja money and encouraged him to experiment with prostitutes, also to visit the temples of Khajuraho where there are lots of erotic, stone-carved images of sexual experimentation.

                  I don’t know how accurate that is but, for a young Indian man, sexual experimentation with prostitutes would have been the norm.

                  He did also definitely visit the Khajuraho temples, as I have learned from visiting Khujaraho that an Indian sannyasin there actually guided Osho around the temples as a young man.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Thanks, Shanti, you’re a veritable mine of Osho info!

                • Klaus says:

                  SS 9 Nov. at 11:02

                  The Khajuraho stories very much hit home with me. Read that somewhere, too.

                  Seem to be fitting the happenings.

                  Sashi/Vivek I read too.

                  SD is certainly right about your library skills!!

                  Good exchanges to enjoy.

                  I don’t think AY is a denier of everything positive in O., but rather the advocatus diaboli: don’t let’s carry every sandal presented to us…or so.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Yes, interesting to read about Osho and Khajuraho, and the sexual mores of young Indian men of the time. Context makes a difference. Thanks, Swamishanti!

              • satchit says:

                NP, certainly Osho was crazy, consciously crazy.

                No-mind is the meeting of the opposites and craziness is part of it.

                If you don’t allow craziness, you will become a scholar, but not more.

                Can be that he threatens to kill, kill their ego.

                It’s a mad game.

                • satyadeva says:

                  “No-mind is the meeting of the opposites and craziness is part of it.”

                  Is it, Satchit? How would you know?

                  Plenty of great teachers don’t behave in such ways, so “craziness” is hardly a criterion for measuring authenticity. Which is not to denigrate it or not enjoy it, just to see it for what it is, without ‘glamourising’ it all.

                • satchit says:

                  Maybe you understood me wrong:

                  I say stableness is the opposite of craziness.
                  Both are part of the mind.

                  Oops, now it goes deep into the cellar of understanding.

                • satyadeva says:

                  It’s just a bit of fun, Satchit, no need to go right down there (lol).

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Nothing against a bit of crazy if it’s the right kind. Laughter is fine, cookiness is fine, but when it is damaging anyone it’s not so funny.

                • satchit says:

                  NP, nobody can damage you, only yourself.

                  A master creates a situation and you have to respond.

                  If you respond in the wrong way you feel damaged.

                • satyadeva says:

                  Satchit, some people should not be allowed into certain situations in the first place because they’re simply not ready (see my previous post of a few mins. ago).

                  And why bring “a master” into this? Osho hasn’t been running things for nearly 33 years.

                • satchit says:

                  SD, 3 months with Somendra…

                  Why did you load this heavy burden on you?

                  I did once do a 3 days group with him.
                  This was ok and enough experience.

                • satyadeva says:

                  That was another time, Satchit, during my ‘Saturn Return’ when I was under the illusion that 3 months with Somendra would ‘rescue’ me from the depression that had run my life for the previous year or more, despite ongoing efforts, including another 3 months group.

                • swamishanti says:

                  He recognised that it was like that for you though, didn’t he, SD, when you met him later at the cafe at Hampstead Heath if I remember correctly?

                • satyadeva says:

                  No, Shanti, you remember incorrectly. I came across him 3 and a half years later in Golders Hill Park, not in a cafe, and he had nothing much to say to me, beyond a rather nervous “Oh, so it was the group to end all groups, was it?” when, in response to him asking whether I was still doing such ‘work’ I told him his ‘intensive’ had put an end to my interest in such efforts. After which he quickly shuffled away with his two orange-clad female buddies.

                  He wasn’t a bad guy, I quite liked him, but that course was wrong for me and others at that time and he didn’t make enough effort to see where we were at before it began, under the illusion that he and his methods could transform everyone, no matter what state they and their lives were in. And I was a fool to carry on until the end when it was clearly not working for me. But, insecurity and loneliness can lead one into strange places where common sense is abandoned in favour of hope for a kind of ‘miracle’.

                • satchit says:

                  I think the group leaders, Somendra and others, were not prepared if somebody came with
                  real problems, SD.

                  I guess they had no psychological education at all.

                  Just coming from the Human Potential Movement, they played a kind of self-made therapist.

                  No wonder that it fails if there are real problems.

                • Nityaprem says:

                  Interesting story, Satyadeva. It’s always tricky when people start touting methods, whether it will connect with you. My experience is more with therapy groups, did that once, where there wasn’t a teacher with a vision, more a kind of group sharing, but I can imagine a teacher getting quite caught up in their theoretical method.

                  I was yesterday reading a satsang book by Papaji, the quote “no teaching, no method, no student” came around, and I thought that was great. I would have liked to have met him.

        • Klaus says:

          Google translated this one from German too.

          I don’t know whether it sounds nice in Italian; it does in German….

          Una tua frase sconsiderata
          Una parola dura da parte mia
          Una discordia su cui non vale la pena discutere
          Dovremmo essere entrambi più intelligenti
          Eppure soffriamo
          E ferirci per poche sciocchezze

          E tu sei tutto ciò che ho
          Sei tutta la mia vita
          Il mio respiro, la mia forza, tutte le mie canzoni
          Eppure mi comporto da stupido
          E sbattere la porta dietro di me
          Ma so che lo sai
          ritornerò
          Mi leggi nel pensiero, vedo attraverso il tuo labirinto
          Puoi mettere parole come puntine
          Più a lungo ci amiamo e più siamo vicini
          È anche più facile farci del male
          E se non c’è amore senza lacrime
          Quando felicità e tristezza si intrecciano
          Poi ci siamo fatti male a vicenda eppure ci siamo amati così tanto
          Piuttosto che tutte le lacrime valgono

          English:

          A thoughtless sentence from you
          A harsh word from me
          A discord not worth arguing about
          We should both be smarter
          And yet we suffer
          And hurt us over a few trifles

          And you are all I have
          You are my whole life
          My breath, my strength, all my songs
          And yet I act like a fool
          And slam the door behind me
          But I know that you know
          I’ll come back
          You read my mind, I see through your labyrinth
          You can put words like pinpricks
          The longer we love each other and the closer we are
          It’s also easier to hurt us
          And if there is no love without tears
          When happiness and sadness are intertwined
          Then we hurt each other and yet loved each other so much
          Rather than all tears are worth.

          • Klaus, thank You. Osho said (almost): “The only way to hurt me is not to be yourself.”

            • Klaus says:

              Yes. All the fingers – and sometimes even all the toes! – are pointing to one’s own self and impulses.

              Life conditions are different for us. And so are some of our actions.

              Thanks for your input, VF!
              It helps clear looking and seeing!!

              If you come to merryoldGermania anytime, we will have a nice (well, well, well) Capuccino!

        • Nityaprem says:

          VF, what does a little death matter to us? Aren’t we all avatars of the universal consciousness? When our time comes, it comes, vaccinated or not.

  8. SD, by “our community” I’m referring to the “Zorba the Buddha” people, those who enjoy the freedom from the conflict between material and spiritual kingdoms. For me, the energy released from this liberation process took naturally the direction of gratitude and compassion; building places for those who would come later was part of the celebration, which I make started since Osho overcame the long night of the soul. So, I can’t separate the material place from the spiritual community.

    • satyadeva says:

      LATEST NEWS: SANNYAS NEWS TO CARRY ON!

      Enough money has been raised to enable us to pay the web host for another year, thanks to several contributors.

      And we’re looking for new, stimulatinmg articles so any such input would be most welcome.

      • simond says:

        Congratulations and thanks to all who supported the costs for another year.

        I also hope I can contribute an article later, certainly I hope the numbers of contributions to articles also increase. It’s been a dry period for a while.

  9. Lokesh says:

    SS provides an Osho quote to support the idea that Osho was open and frank about his sex life: “But one fact I have proved absolutely and forever – that making love does not destroy enlightenment.”

    From almost all of the dozen or so reports I’ve read about female sannyasin middle of the night lower chakra tweaking sessions with Osho I found nothing that could be described as ‘love-making’. More like wham, bam without a thank you, mam, and don’t tell your boyfriend about this.

    Yeah, some folks just need to put the old man up on a pedestal, I suppose. Takes all types to make a blog.

    • Nityaprem says:

      Well, considering there were so many women primed to “surrender”, it’s no surprise that he wouldn’t deny himself these things.

      But as far as the enlightened experience of sex is concerned, calling it ‘just fun’ makes you wonder if he considered the women’s fun as well.

      People like Papaji had wives and children, a long-term relationship, a kind of fidelity. I appreciate that, it seems more truthful, if sex is the body relating to another body.

      • Lokesh says:

        Considering Osho’s reputation in the public eye, he couldn’t be honest about what he was up to behind the scenes, because he would have looked like all the other disgraced Indian gurus who went before him, and he would not have wanted that.

        As for all his talk about sex being sacred and long lovemaking sessions, he did not, apparently, want that either.

        Yet, when it all boils down, there was much to be learned from Osho, on many different levels, including learning from some aspects of his life that were not exactly Buddha-like. Goes to show, appearances can be deceptive. Live and learn.

        Through it all, I still feel grateful for the time I spent around Osho, and for meeting all the fantastic people that I did in his ashram. I find that quite remarkable because it says much about how much Osho could affect people’s lives…in a positive way.

    • swamishanti says:

      I remember a book an old girlfriend had on sex. With lots of illustrations and bits of sexual knowledge or advice from different cultures.
      There was one page which included advice from a Chinese Taoist master on sex , ffm sex, ie various positions involving a man with two women.
      This was some good, sound advice.

      In Taoism, sex is seen as something extremely healthy, the merger with the opposite sex, the yin and yang essence are considered complimentary and healthy, regarded as beneficial for long-term health, and as much as possible.

      This is very different from the puritanical Christian conditioning many Western baby boomers grew up with.

      It is also considered healthy for the man to conserve his energy most of the time, whilst also enjoying sex with the women.
      I also learnrd that from reading the ‘Tao of Love and Sex.’ I often enjoy masturbation marathons with my Uncle Fred in his garden shed. Thanks to Osho, I do not feel guilty about this.

      Indian tantric practices also have similar notions and are enthusiastic about the physical and spiritual merger between the two sexes.

      Lokesh, with your puritanical ideas about sex, ‘sacred codes’, where a master should not have sexual relationships with a disciple, you will have a difficult time with Osho and tantric/Taoist ideas in general.

      You would feel more at home perhaps with a Catholic teacher or a strict advocate of monagamy and celibacy, Americans such as Andrew Cohen or Gangaji.

      As far as Osho not being ‘Buddha-like’: with Osho we are talking about ‘Zorba the Buddha’. The same spiritual realisations as Gautama the Buddha, if not more, but with less of the restrictions which have made up Buddhism.

      • swamishanti says:

        Talking about baby-boomer generation and their restrictive sexual conditioning. The Beatles grew up in the sexual revolution of the sixties, yet when they spent time in India with the Maharishi they were shocked when they heard a rumour that he had made sexual advances to a lady there (‘Sexy Sadie’). They believed this was really bad and that was enough for them to become disenchanted with the guru and pack their bags and leave.

        Today’s younger generation is a different matter. Nowadays teens are growing up on a diet of internet porn at their fingertips and ffm mmf combinations.

        Here’s a different version of a classic Beatles track I discovered recently, ‘Tommorow Never Knows’ (take 1) which I discovered on the super-deluxe version of ‘Revolver’ which has lots of extras like rare takes and bonus tracks:

        https://youtu.be/qXUm4lAA4ac

        • satyadeva says:

          Well, given that his advances were unwanted by the woman in question (Mia Farrow, I believe) and that he’d apparently mentioned absolutely nothing about sex previously, having been marketed as a ‘celibate holy man’, it’s hardly surprising they found it a breach of trust and as such, a cause for disillusion.

          Internet porn, eh? Wonderfully purifying preparation for advanced tantric sex practices, of course (lol)!

          • swamishanti says:

            I understand that the Beatles later thought that the Maharishi had done nothing wrong or the accusation was false.

            In 1992, George Harrison gave a benefit concert for the Maharishi-associated Natural Law Party, and later apologised for the way the Maharishi had been treated by saying, “We were very young” and “It’s probably in the history books that Maharishi ‘tried to attack Mia Farrow’ – but it’s bullshit, total bullshit.”

            Paul McCartney also took his daughter to visit the Maharishi in later years.

            Internet porn are the internet sites with by far the most hits. Home-made porn movies have become fashionable. Da Free John made some in the 1970s.

            The old fears created by mythological stories like Sodom and Gomorrah are dissolving.

            Sexual freedom agitates those with old Judeo-Christian values towards sex.

            I read today the Taliban have banned women from visiting all parks in Kabul, even if accompanied by a male relative.

            • satyadeva says:

              So the Beatles/Maharishi story illustrates nothing much more than a misunderstanding or an exaggerated report. Ok.

              Re internet porn, what’s so wonderful about these sites having the most hits? Do you truly regard this as evidence of liberation, of genuine progress? What sort of teachings have persuaded you of this? Or is it just your own preference, something convenient for you? Advanced tantric practices and porn – uneasy bedfellows, to coin a phrase!

              If Da Free John is/was a master, perhaps one should enquire more closely as to the context in which these videos were made and used instead of assuming the fact he was involved makes porn of all kinds psycho-spiritually valid, even ‘respectable’, a blessing to the human race.

              And btw, no use telling me your astro chart has ‘Venus in Scorpio’ making you’re an authority on the matter – because so have I (lol)!

              • swamishanti says:

                I did not say it was “so wonderful” that Internet porn had the most hits. What is does indicate is that sex is what people are most interested in – and sex is still what society is so hung up on. And a vital energy that religions have condemned as ‘dirty’ and tried to suppress and separate from spirituality.

                I don’t know that much about Da Free John/Adi Da Samraj/ Bubba Free John/ Da Love Ananda etc other than, like Osho he has been described as a ‘tantric master’, a disciple of Swami Muktananda as it were.

                Some regard him, like Osho, as one of the most powerful masters of the last century and one of the only fully enlightened. Others believe he was an ‘avatar’. What little I have read/watched of his talks seemed simplistic to me in comparison with Osho.

                Apparently a woman who was into Adi Da visited Osho in Woodlands in the early 1970’s and showed him a book featuring photos of Da in the early ‘70s which Osho studied for a while before saying “You are fortunate…you have found a living Buddha.”

        • Nityaprem says:

          I think it shows a certain immaturity to get hung up on sex, whether your feelings are positive or negative. It’s probably the most addictive activity there is for humans, and many people never come to terms with it.

          That’s one reason why Tantra has never appealed to me, and why I’m rather disappointed that Osho didn’t manage to ‘walk his talk’ about gradually transcending sex past the age of forty. At a certain point in life it is better to let go of sex and allow it to come less frequently, it’s just the path into love and partnership.

          I’m not sure if Osho ever truly understood how sex deepens relationship. He certainly experimented enough with it, talked enough about it, but never really formed a partnership.

          • swamishanti says:

            NP, it is important to look at the exact context of any Osho quote, as well as the surrounding text, before making judgements as to whether Osho `walked the talk`..

            The quote from Osho you were referring to was:

            “At the age of fourteen, somewhere near there, suddenly your energy is flooded with sex. It happens as if the floodgates have been opened in you. Subtle sources of energy, which were not yet open, have become open, and your whole energy becomes sexual, coloured with sex. You think sex, you sing sex, you walk sex — everything becomes sexual. Every act is coloured. This happens; you have not done anything about it. It is natural.

            Transcendence is also natural. If sex is lived totally, with no condemnation, with no idea of getting rid of it, then at the age of forty-two — just as at the age of fourteen sex gets opened and the whole energy becomes sexual, at the age of forty-two or nearabout those floodgates close again. And that, too, is as natural as sex becoming alive; it starts disappearing.”

            But then, Osho continues later in the quote:

            “That’s what transcendence of sex is. It is a higher sex. When you transcend sex, you reach to a higher sex. Ordinary sex is gross, higher sex is not gross at all.”

            Osho had transcended sex. He was ready to leave the body at any time. He was not in the least attached to the body, or to earthly life.

            But his vision was of celebrating life, `Zorba the Buddha` – essentially a tantric vision of acceptance rather than respression. He didn`t want to deny himself the pleasures of the outer world and he envisaged his `New Man` to live in the same way.

            He also shared shaktipat with girls. You know the score. His energy had finished its journey and his sahasra was fully open. He was free to enjoy sex.

            You will not find a more enlightened man than Osho. He was the real deal. And still the most threatening enlightened rebel to many of those in power, the religous nuts and politicians.

            Also, it is important not to take any of Osho`s quotes too seriously. He always contradicted himself, and pointed at the real connection which was the transmission happening underground. As he said in one discourse: “Go on throwing my words away and collect that silence, collect that hum”. (Osho: `Sermons in Stones`).

            • Nityaprem says:

              Hmm, how to make this clear to you, SS. Osho’s attitude towards sex was not particularly healthy, if we believe what he said about himself. You can go along with it, but that’s just being a sheep in the sannyas fold.

              When you feel sex starting to come less often, respect it and let it go. The most sexual organ is the brain, and the brain and its more nebulous counterpart, the mind, tend to hold onto things way past what’s healthy. Enjoy sex, by all means, but don’t cling to some idealised version of it with “girls” way past the age of fifty or sixty.

              As Ajahn Chah advised, develop the mind that is inclined to letting go. Find that which feels healthy and normal.

              • swamishanti says:

                “Osho’s attitude towards sex was not particularly healthy.”

                Your idea, NP, which you seem to have developed recently based only on a dubious report.

                “You can go along with it, but that’s just being a sheep in the sannyas fold.“

                You will be surprised, perhaps, NP, but I am not really a ‘sheep in the Sannyas fold’. Actually I have spent years with other masters which is where a lot of my spiritual experience and understanding came from. That happened after my experience meditating on my own for several years which was also intense.

                The truth is I don’t even really identify as a sannyasin, despite having been given the name and receiving the initiation years ago. My experience with Osho has mostly been in recent years and has been very intense, but this experience with Osho is only a relatively small part of my spiritual journey and understanding.

                When I visit India I have little interest in visiting Osho centres.

                As for ‘girls way past the age of fifty or sixty” Osho’s girls were actually much younger. Why separate sex from spirituality? It is my observation that sannyasins are actually less sexual, less sexually obsessed and healthier than other spiritual groups, because they have been free to indulge without restrictions or guilt.

            • swamishanti says:

              Shantam Lani, Osho’s World Ambassador, speaks on Rajneeshpuram and Wild Wild Country in this piece ‘Reflecting On Rajneeshpuram Commune Life’:

              “The master-disciple is a transmission…so to be in his presence is an amazing experience”:

              https://youtu.be/WRbSG8G_lYs

      • satyadeva says:

        We’ve all read and heard such teachings, SS, but they can be misused by people who simply aren’t ready for them, not experienced or mature enough, deficient in loving one person, let alone two (lol), although well primed by the world for self-indulgence, self-gratification.

        It would be more appropriate to hear about what makes a person suitable for these practices, so that both they and their partner(s) might truly benefit from them.

        • swamishanti says:

          Yes, actually that was mentioned in the book I was talking about; the advice was that with the threesome methods a certain emotional maturity was needed with all involved. Something to that effect I can’t remember the exact details.

        • Klaus says:

          SD (10 November, 2022 at 6:31 pm)

          That is a well-worded comment and very fitting imv regarding the prerequisites one might like to check before starting this or that spiritual practice.

          One might also check the teacher.

  10. Lokesh says:

    SS offers the following invaluable advice, “You would feel more at home perhaps with a Catholic teacher or a strict advocate of monagamy and celibacy, Americans such as Andrew Cohen or Gangaji.”
    Reminds me of one of my favourite Zappa songs: ‘Catholic Girls’. Follow the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fdcDN4LbYQ

    Andrew Cohen? Yeah, I met him. I was suitably unimpressed.
    Gangagi? I met her also, even went to a couple of her satsangs…could have been named ‘Bore Yourself to Enshitenment.’
    Where I feel most at home is by a shaman’s fire with at least one like-minded amigo. Boom! Boom!

  11. Nityaprem says:

    Re SS’s advice, I rather think that a spiritual teacher who is a strict advocate of anything is going to fall short of the mark. Teaching has a lot to do with being sensitive to the student, and that needs a sensitive attitude.

    • satchit says:

      “Sensitive attitude”?
      Did Osho not say that from his side no relationship is possible?

    • swamishanti says:

      Yes, NP, and Osho had varied advice depending on the particular individual he was talking to at the time. If one person came and sat in front of him in darshan he might tell them to indulge himself.

      To another he might tell them that they were ready for celibacy.

      Many people were advised to stay and live in the commune and live in the world, yet with another individual, he might advise them that their path was aloneness, solitude and retreat.

      • Nityaprem says:

        I have heard it said that “one should measure the success of a teacher by his students”. how do you reckon Osho would rate on that?

        It’s pretty easy to find out what Osho advised people. It wasn’t often celibacy, more likely it would be “find another partner in 24 hours.”

        • swamishanti says:

          I think he would rate very well.

          He had the same capacity as the Buddha and helped many sannyasins become enlightened, including members of his own family, and transformed many people. With his popularity, charisma and global following he easily could have left a dogmatic religion, yet he also very cleverly managed to avoid that. I guess he lived up to his reputation as “the master of masters”.

          Some sannyasins may be a tad selfish. I guess it all depends on how the individual interprets it.

          • Lokesh says:

            SS says, “Osho could have left a dogmatic religion, yet he also very cleverly managed to avoid that.”

            That may or may not be true. What is certainly untrue, in relation to being dogmatic, as in inclined to lay down principles as undeniably true is SS’s following statement: “Osho had the same capacity as the Buddha and helped many sannyasins become enlightened, including members of his own family.”

            How could SS possibly know that Osho had the same capacity as the Buddha? This is pure speculation.

            Nobody really knows if it is true that many sannyasins became enlightened due to Osho’s help. Again, pure speculation.

            As for Osho’s family members becoming enlightened, Osho could have made that up. I worked in Osho’s parents’ house a few times. Quite naturally, I was quite curious about them. I liked them. I never witnessed anything in their behaviour that suggested any of them were enlightened. They were pretty normal people, who seemed satisfied enough that their son had become the head of a global spiritual organization that provided them with a comfortable and peaceful place to live in the ashram and that was about it.

            Of course, as SS concludes, “It all depends on how the individual interprets it.” You can’t argue with that, but you can ask if SS is also living under that particular rule of thumb. It certainly appears like he is.

            • Nityaprem says:

              Whether or not Osho was like the Buddha — able to provide enlightenment for hundreds of sannyasins in a single discourse — is an open question. Somebody should do a survey among sannyasins: Was there ever a discourse that made the earth move for you?

              Thinking of sannyasins I have met, they were all open, happy people, but not necessarily with the clarity of mind that I would associate with an enlightened teacher. Lesser lights, maybe.

  12. VeetTom says:

    Swami Sarlo did this intense non-profit work that you may know?
    & Sarlo’s Guru Rating Service still exists. He moved to even another free website host: http://sarlo.42web.io/Ratings.htm.

    Facebook does NOT ALLOW a direct posting of that link, maybe because that’s a free website host, or there were bugs once?

    If you ain’t got the money together for so hosting, you may want to try this free website host? I don’t know about the stability there, but it’s FREE.

  13. VeetTom says:

    For years I still come back here – but only once in a while. I always become exhausted after reading all this. Why? Take me as a good willing outsider witness ;-) What happens?

    I might find a thread that suits me and then follow it for some time. A cascade of daily postings will soon become too much for me. They add up so quickly and with so many different aspects I can relate to them mostly. I also know some of your previous and lost writers you still memorize. I now read about your analysis of those Osho-Blow-Job-Failed-Sannyasins, about some badly or well-therapized seekers, and about your needed payments to feed this old SN board. You reflect on those who won’t come here anymore – or who once quit this site because of it being not close enough to the OIF church, etc.

    Good stuff to read, elaborated by capable mother tongue authors, but where to jump in to those many waves? And what’s the use?

    After that fatigue I will come back again – some day….

    I wonder if this board might be the only meeting place of intellectual “Swa-Mas” at all? Because Sannyas has aged a lot, so many years have passed by, many have lost interest in mind-work, when someday they realized Osho could not change them, or because they were satisfied enough by just moving on, living their own lives, ignoring thoughts and words for those forgotten spiritual horizons of their early days. (Difficult sentence!). Some still cling to Osho’s words only, without being able to even write a short foreword to one of his 1001 quotes…

    All that was bound to happen of course – just looking at our 1001 split personalities inside our egos. But to write about all this rarely happens in the surviving Sannyas world – because this mostly gets identified as mere intellectual fantasy. “True meditators” shy away from indulging in this verbal expression seeking, as no-mind in silence is believed to be the one and only true approach.

    Enough for me – today.-

  14. VeetTom says:

    So now the words by draught seized to flow again – in this thread.
    This happens a lot, lately, wheneve I comment somewhere on the web.
    I doubt this could be true, or because of me, but it looks like it.
    For some reason I may cut the flow – unintentionally….

    I did not do any new camerawork since 2015 – I am a pensioner
    Even my private YouTube Videos have ended. The circle has broken.

    Meher Baba promised he would speak again some day – he never did,
    Osho said that this was bound to happen after 1 and 1/2 years,
    simply because the vocal chords stop working after this period.

    Enough said….

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