Nityaprem writes…
Not so long ago I asked my father what were the most significant books in his life. He answered, P.D. Ouspensky’s ‘In search of the Miraculous’, and any Osho book (of course). Apparently he had read Ouspensky’s book on Gurdjieff some years before running across Osho’s picture in an alternative magazine and thinking, that man is it, I must speak to him. The following summer he was on the plane to India to spend time at the Ashram. This would have been 1978.
Of course, Ouspensky describes his own time as a disciple of Gurdjieff, and serves as an introduction to my father’s thinking of the concept of following a master, if not quite in the Indian sense of the word, then at least in practical terms a similar affair. Ouspensky’s relationship with Gurdjieff was first one of ideas and teachings, whether it later became one of the heart is difficult to tell from the book. Still, that impulse to follow a remarkable man is something a lot of sannyasins will find familiar.
For my father, Osho is the one and only guru. For me, although I share a lot of Osho background with him and still consider myself a sannyasin, I have read a little more widely in recent years, taking in much Buddhism and the books of Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and H. W. L. Poonja, among others. In a way, I am still a seeker, while he considers himself to have found all he needs. I am sure it has something to do with the formative stages of my childhood in which I first encountered Osho, as I was only 7 when we first boarded the plane to Bombay in 1979.
We were all seekers once. And those sannyasins who went to see Poonjaji in Lucknow after Osho left his body continued seeking. The real question is, do you eventually give up the search? In a way, searching implies a goal, something that is sought. In the beginning what motivated my father, and what I felt when I started studying Buddhism was a certain impulse, something from the heart.
Osho has said…
“One has to be available to many sources. It is good that you have been to Shivanand, to Ramana, to Aurobindo. It shows you have been seeking — but it also shows that nowhere could you feel at home. So the journey continues. The journey has to continue until you come to a point where you can say: Yes, I have arrived. Now there is no need for any more departures. And you can relax. Then the real work starts.
Whatsoever you have been doing is just moving from one place to another. The journey is exciting, but the journey is not the goal. One becomes enriched by the journey. You must have become enriched being open to so many sources; you must have learnt many things — but still the journey continues. Then you will have to seek again and again.”
Osho – ‘The Search – Talks on The Ten Bulls of Zen’, chapter 4, Question 2
So, does one arrive “home” when one finds the final guru?
One thing we all forget easily is that all this language is metaphors.
Journeying, seeking, searching, walking the path, arriving and so on.
These kind of activities happen and exist in the everyday world `outside` sure enough, yet we transpose them into an `inner world`, never stopping to think we have moved into the world of poetry and metaphor.
For example: we say “I see what you mean” or we say: “I am on my path.”
But what kind of eyes are doing this seeing and what kind of feet are doing this walking?
Nityaprem asks:
“So, does one arrive “home” when one finds the final guru?”
“It felt like coming home.”
That`s a classic, too. I have heard so many people saying that as I`m sure you have, in different contexts. About arriving in India, about meeting their guru, about taking psychedelics, about shooting heroin.
How could it be final? Your visa might run out or you`re deported, the guru dies or gets caught with his pants down, or your stash runs out, then what?
I was reading ‘The Tao of Travel’, a compilation of travel writing selected by Paul Theroux.
Overall, many travellers tend to agree with the Chinese proverb, “A good traveller is not intent on arriving” or “It is better to travel well than to arrive.”
Mind you, arriving at a destination is fun. But as it is such fun, why would not every traveller set off on another journey just so as to get the buzz of arriving again?
Interesting post from Nityaprem.
NP mentions that sannyasins visited Poonja in Lucknow after Osho left the body. I stumbled across this video documentary of one of the enlightened teachers from Osho’s lineage, Samdarshi and his commune in the Himalayas recently. Several sannyasin teachers can be seen visiting the ashram, and also Poonja himself who came to share satsang.
Apparently, Samdarshi had a bit of a ‘Judas’/Hugh Milne type ex-follower who left in anger about something and wrote some things against him, including that Poonja had said to the group when they were giving a joint satsang,‘ this guys not going to teach you anything, come over to my side if you want to learn something..”
or something to that effect. However, according to Osho’s bodyguard Vasant Swaha, who was there and actually was responsible for bringing Poonja to visit Samdarshi, whatever Poonja said was simply intended to tease Samdarshi in the way that Masters will sometimes play games with each other, and it was not intended as a serious rebuke of Samdarshi or to suggest that he was not enlightened.
Anyhow, here is the video, which has some interesting footage including some skydiving and techno parties:
https://youtu.be/aHouMU_GI18
Shanti,
Thanks for reminding me that if I never see or meet another tacky Osho lookalike tribute act and his silly cultstomers again in my life, I will die a happy man.
Perhaps you will get something out of meditation next time round. Instead of believing it’s all a con.
I quite enjoyed the video, thanks swamishanti. It was interesting to see the inside of a small commune, lots of smiling, blissed-out people.
I also found it an interesting vid and could recognise quite a few sannyasins. I also enjoyed the live sannyas songs which for me have always been the heart of Sannyas.
Here’s a loveosho podcast with Vasant Swaha, Osho’s enlightened bodyguard who took Poonja to meet Samdarshi: https://youtu.be/AOQrjJ2blzE
Personally, as a commune kid I found it difficult to connect to the spiritual search. I took sannyas, but I think that like many of the other kids I was just following my parents. It wasn’t until I was in my forties that I started to feel a spiritual impulse, a need to search.
Osho says that the search enriches you, but also that “the work only begins once you have made a commitment to a master.” So finding a guru is not the end of the path, it is only the beginning.
For those who want to read the entire question and answer that I quoted, here is a link:
https://sambodhiprem.com/Osho-talks-about-choosing-a-spiritual-path.html
Nityaprem, you say: ”So finding a guru is not the end of the path, it is only the beginning.”
Where do you want to get to, though?
On the last thread we had a post that contained Amrito, Osho`s doctor`s thoughts about Anando`s book and while he was at it, also about Osho`s previous secretaries. According to him they were all self-serving liars, falsifiers of history and crass egotists hopelessly caught in their own negative emotions. Highly likely that they think the same of him and his mates. Indeed, a lot has been written implying that and worse.
A Noah`s Ark of Consciousness ushering a new loving era for humanity or a nest of compulsive liars pumping out fake news for decades mixed up with murder, suicide, bad drugs, Omerta, endless cover-ups, all honeyed-up with pronouncements about how enlightening it all is, or something else?
We never really know where a path may lead.
Humans are hardwired to walk, so there`s no avoiding it:
We have to put one in front of the other and take our chances.
I would say, if you call yourself an Osho sannyasin, you shouldn’t be paying too much attention to all the things that the mind does, especially when it causes you to express yourself negatively towards others. Maybe this is something I picked up from Buddhist ‘right speech’, but to me it has always felt instinctively correct to treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself. Does Osho not teach witnessing and no-mind?
When you reach certain higher levels of awareness it becomes clearer what is appropriate to say and what isn’t, and as a sannyasin, a man or woman on the path, these things should count heavily. But it seems some senior figures like Amrito aren’t as aware as we would like them to be…that mud-slinging is not what I’d expect from a spiritually developed person.
Where you want to get to is a tricky question. As soon as you introduce “wanting” you’re stuck in the land of desires, involuntary ‘my-making’ and the tricks of the ego. It’s turbulence of the mind, not the path to no-mind. I think if you can just be quiet and still deep inside then you are doing well.
My main takeaway from meeting and living with Buddhists, in the form of Tibetan people, was more of a human thing. They were oldworld religious, for sure, with their little rituals and superstitions and whatnot, but more often than not seemed to have a kind of cheerful, earthy and solid joie-de-vivre. I respect that.
All the mind-watching-the-mind-watching-the-mind-watching-another-part-of-the-mind-inner-guru battle-of-attrition-against-the-ego conversations that seem part and parcel of western buddhism and all enlightenment scenes can get tiresome and headachey.
I went to a puja with Lama Yeshi, one of the first Lamas in India to set up a scene for westerners back in the day. He had just come back from his first visit to the West and was meeting up again with his western disciples/fans in India.
Before the puja started, he looked at me, who wasn`t part of the group and didn`t know the words and said, ”Look, I`m a monk so I will have to chant a bit of mumbo-jumbo with these people now, don`t worry about it, you just sit there and meditate.”
After the puja, someone asked him what was the thing he liked most in the West.
Without blinking he answered: “The chocolate.”
The others giggled in a slightly embarrassed way, but he was being straight. In fact he went on to write a whole bunch of stuff in his books about tantra which he related it to the experience of eating chocolate.
Learning a bit of meditation is good but using the mind to mindfuck about how duff the mind is never strikes me as particularly intelligent use of the mind.
Western Buddhists and enlightenment seekers would probably be a lot happier sticking to the things that make them happy, like drinking good German beer and watching the football, with mindfulness, of course, at least, until their team gets knocked out of the Cup.
@frank who wrote: “western enlightenment seekers would probably be a lot happier sticking to the things that make them happy.”
Western society seems to be very busy encouraging people to spend, spend, spend. As if that makes you happy, or the commensurate need to chase money and the corporate ladder, which is guaranteed to make you unhappy. Better, as Timothy Leary used to say, to “tune in, turn on and drop out.”
Spirituality festivals seem to do quite well these days. Last I saw a website advertising one with “yoga, astrology, crystals and mediums”, it’s a whole cottage industry and many people don’t see the more worthwhile aspects such as yoga and tantra in the middle of it.
The young people today are finding their way on places like Samaneri Jayasara’s youtube channel or Leo Gura’s website Actualized.org, reading the books of Ramana and Nisargadatta from the comfort of their own digital homes before they even dip a toe in the waters.
Is that real spirituality? Has your generation and my generation done such a great job taking on the baton?
NP, you say “Western society seems to be very busy encouraging people to spend, spend, spend.”
Yes, and the “spiritual” market is very much part of this ultra-capitalist phenomenon of commodifying, monetising, marketing and generating customers for absolutely every aspect of life. It is experiencing exponential growth right now as it tends to be an enterprise with little visible end product and masses of merch.
With this, the difference between the corporate ladder and the greasy pole of enlightenment become indistinguishable and interchangeable.
Osho`s idea that the spiritual man can enjoy material stuff was radical in the 70s and 80s. It is simply a bland comment in the internet age.
And is there really a “job” of a “baton” of “true spirituality” that needs to be passed on?
I have no doubt that every loony cult-leader and fundamentalist religionist believes this sort of thing, too.
Sadhguru takes corporate sponsorship, I heard, and speaks at business conferences.
Never mind Sadhguru, he`s just Swami Bhorat without the laughs.
Have a go yourself!
Apparently, this book isn’t a send-up, it’s for real!
SD, it gets pretty hard to tell.
One thing for sure is that sitting around watching your mind, breathing and fighting off your ego just doesn`t generate enough cash, er…I mean energy.
I suggest DNA re-activation therapy if you find you are a few strands short of your full Atlantean quota.
Or have you tried Psychic surgery, Vaginal steaming, Urine health tonic, Maggot Debridement Therapy, Tibetan Pumping or Mongolian plunging. They could save your life!
Or if you haven`t been stung enough already, how about Bee Venom Therapy?
If all else fails you can put in for a soul transplant.
I’ve tried psychic surgery around 25 years or so ago – only as a client though. The ‘surgeon’, Stephen Turoff, based in Chelmsford, Essex, took just a few minutes of plunging his hand into my stomach (which felt as if it was right inside my body, not painful but a pretty powerful energy experience), taking it out a few times to ‘throw away’ some toxic energy into a waste bin.
After this quite brief treatment I was delighted to find that the oppressive, stagnant, depressed, ‘ill’ feeling in that area that had weighed me down for a while had completely vanished, allowing me to enjoy a cup of tea etc. at a nearby cafe.
Over a few years I had several sessions with ST, each time producing welcome results. My partner at that time, who had hepatitis C, was also a client of his and the doctors were surprised to find that afterwards her viral readings had lessened dramatically.
Perhaps those sessions we had could have headed off more serious illness, and maybe even extended her lifespan.
This is how it goes:
Some make their money in the material world, some make it in the spiritual world.
New Age is not something new.
Religions have had this businessplan for centuries.
SD,
I read something interesting by Alejandro Jodorowsky, the director famed for his psychedelic films and happenings in the 70s who has become some kind of wacky therapist, even guru in his own right.
Some decades ago, he became involved with Pacita, a famous psychic surgeon in Mexico. As a theatre man, he had an interesting take on the phenomenon. He reckoned that it was theatre, with the healer using knives, animal entrails and all sorts of props to do her `surgery`. Jodorowsky realised that what she was doing was not what she said she was doing, it was a show, but he nevertheless estimated that the whole theatrical set-up and performance was indeed a powerful experience for (some of) the patients and as a result, at times, seemingly remarkable emotional and physical results ensued.
I don`t know anything about this stuff for myself. I have never even had homeopathy or acupuncture. But the idea of magic being theatrical interests me. After all, have you ever visited an enlightened one who wasn`t sitting on a stage with the disciples as an audience?
It doesn`t get more theatrical than that.
Not everyone has such an open-minded view about psychic surgery, mind, which is understandable too.
The most famous and successful practitioner of psychic surgery in the world was John of God, the Brazilian healer who was busted 3 years ago long on 600 counts of rape and sexual abuse. He`s doing 63 years.
I recall Stephen Turoff, a friend of mine went for treatment with him. She came out of it rather impressed and feeling better, but didn’t go back a second time.
Regarding the book, @frank, I think quite a few sannyasins move in this direction already, judging by the ads on OshoNews. Some of it I would say is perfectly valid like Mystic Rose groups, but some of the rest looks a little dodgy.
Bee venom therapy sounds tricky, don’t bees die when they sting something?
I think one arrives somewhere ‘home’ when the inner guru is developed. In the connection with the outer guru this may happen.
A sign is also that there is no search for any outer guru anymore.
‘Home’ is also not a place where one stays forever.
Sometimes one leaves the home for a walk outside.
@satchit who wrote:
“I think one arrives somewhere ‘home’ when the inner guru is developed. In the connection with the outer guru this may happen.”
My uncle, a fun and wise man who died of cancer last year, was of the Taoist persuasion and set great store by the ‘inner guru’. In the last years of his life, he wrote several slim volumes of poetry, amongst them many dialogues with his inner guru. Unfortunately, to people other than him these dialogues turned out to be largely mediocre.
My point is, you may find your inner guru to be less than eloquent, or insightful. It’s easy to fool yourself. In those cases, you may find a lot more in the way of wisdom more easily from external sources. But I have heard of other people who have developed an inner guru, so who knows?
@ NP
Basically it’s a case of resonance.
If there is resonance, good, if not, forget it.
Mediocre means there is no resonance for you.
@satchit
How would you expect this communication with an inner guru to happen? It might be a bit much to expect fully-formed visions to appear in your mind’s eye….
Dialogue with the inner guru?
Sounds more like one part of the mind talking with another part of the mind.
Maybe your uncle made a joke.
Yeah, that’s what I thought, maybe not so much a joke as a genuine attempt to leave something of his depths behind which ended up being not much more than mind talking to mind.
But a lot of sannyasins are doing that by writing books, it’s entirely a question as to whether they get picked up by a wider audience. I was surprised how much stuff is now available free on the internet, especially spiritual books.
Yes, spiritual books.
Reminds me of:
Neale Donald Walsh, ‘Conversations with God’.
Also a dialogue….
I was just reading the quotes people have put up from the Neale Donald Walsch books, it all seems rather simplified. Only two emotions, fear and love….
@ NP
Fact is: there is no voice. Just find your core, then everything
follows.
Peace, totality.
From what I’ve read of Neil Donald Walsch’s ‘Conversations with God’, I thought the books contained a highly useful message, that of creating one’s reality, or co-creating with ‘God’ or ‘Source’.
Coming back to the topic, on Osho and gurus, another from Osho’s lineage, Maitreya Ishwara, also claimed to be channelling a message from God/Source. A very different message of fatalism and global transformation.
I have no idea whether there will be any kind of major ‘shift’ in global consciousness in the near future, whatever one is most interested in is what they will focus on, and therefore those interested in meditation and growth will be focusing on awakening and consciousness and various gurus, which is now a worldwide phenomenon. This may appear as if a big shift in consciousness is taking place, however there are always a small minority of more conscious older souls who are interested in awakening and will be aware of others who are undergoing transformation.
Whereas ‘Conversations with God’ is about creating your own reality, Maitreya’s sounded more like the teaching style of various traditional Indian gurus and scriptures which teach predetermination.
I have no idea if all events are predetermined. It appears unlikely given the nature of this intrinsically violent world and all of the abominations and suffering, that the whole story was designed by a higher intelligence. And this little ball is only one small part of a vast universe.
It does appear highly likely to me, however, that there is an element of destiny. Many events are foretold and have been seen beforehand. Whether the whole thing is preprogrammed I have no way of knowing as I have no way of seeing the whole picture.
I currently have a theory that it could be a type of creative dream that just unfolds randomly, predetermined or not. But then the theory of karma and balance may not fit into that. Yet ancient texts such as the Ashtavakra Gita and many Indian gurus say otherwise.
Anyhow, here’s a satsang with Maitreya from 2000 recorded in the big Pyramid in Pune: https://youtu.be/SdVXHGRhVdY
A traditional depiction of Vishnu is that he creatively dreams all events of the universe into reality whilst he lies sleeping.
For the duration of one breath he manifests and destroys tiny universes which emanate from the pores of his skin. His one breath being equal to total universal time.
Another sannyasin, Ageh Bharti, has ‘channelled’ a book, ‘Allah Gawah Hai’ (‘Allah is the Witness’).
Which has so far only been published in Hindi.
Looks interesting:
https://www.oshonews.com/2021/12/26/kadambari-award-2021-for-ageh-bharti/
You raised the question of giving up the search or giving up seeking. It’s a challenging question, which Frank has answered in his inimitable way. In many ways he has explored the issue so deeply that I have nothing to add. But I’ll try????
I recognise I was on a seeking path, a search. A search for someone or something to provide me with a reassurance, answers, a sense of peace etc. The so-called spiritual path has been the pathway to seek answers to real and imagined questions.
Moreover, from birth to death, each of us is on a path or journey. Some are aware of this seeking whilst others go through life with less need to make this conscious and are more oblivious to the deeper questions in Life. But regardless, the search continues for everyone. Whether it’s the seeking of more money, more security, or more love, or more so-called truth. The seeking in some senses never ends. We seek food and shelter and are required to continue this to the very end. Seeking is therefore part of living and can never be “given up”.
One of my profoundest learnings was to see how what I once thought of as my search was to a large degree a “running away”. So whilst it appeared I was looking for more truth and a real understanding, so I was also running away to a great degree.
It was also my conclusion that those who profess the spiritual path were themselves, like me, also running away.
Wearing red, hanging around gurus, reading spiritual books, doing therapy, meditating itself can be and was for me a means to run away. Being a sannyassin, being a follower, a disciple, were means by which I could run away in order to try to make myself “feel better”, “heal trauma”. I could identify myself as a serious seeker, all the while ignoring the fact that the seeking was itself part of the problem.
To separate myself from ordinary life by identifying myself as a seeker has an unwanted and hidden consequence. It separates me from ordinary men and women. The idea of a commune, or a retreat, the idea of a spiritual life itself can become a barrier to normal life. It can make us spiritual people feel just a bit “special”. A bit above the common man or woman, with their daily humdrum lives.
Such is the effect of spiritual communities, monastics, ashrams etc.
I don’t mean I could ignore the seeking, or get to where I am without some intent and soul searching, but there definitely comes a point where you discover that the searching is part of the problem.
We’ve all had these moments when life stops, or during a meditation, wherever it may be, when we realise or discover we are “ok”. This may be in a glorious moment of transcendental awakening, or in some far less grandiose manner, but we are likely all to have felt it.
In some ways such moments are the start of our problems, as these oneness experiences can be the moment when we recognise how divided we are in our normal everyday life. And so we start looking for these transcendental moments again and again. Through drugs, therapy, meditations or wherever the search for what Osho called “bliss” can become feverish or obsessional.
Meeting Barry Long was a starting point for seeing how my prior seeking had itself become problematic. But he too also became rather too “Master”-focused for me. But it was refreshing to hear someone talking about ordinary life, about being responsible for my daily moods and frustrations. In other ways he expressed how the search for “peace” could be discovered in any one moment and didn’t require years of practice or meditations. In this sense he was hinting at the end of the seeking process at all.
As the years have gone by, so the need for peace, stillness and bliss has dissipated. The dissipation occurred not through trying to get more peace, but by giving up the idea of a permanent state of peace.
Osho had inadvertently fed my desire for a permanent state of bliss. What he called bliss I realised was just a state of mind where nothing much was going on. There aren’t the feelings in this state of bliss that I once imagined. The “bliss” is the consequence of a less feverish and doubtful mind. Whereas once I was confounded by feelings of inadequacy and insecurities and worries, now I was far less so.
However, life’s challenges never disappear. There are always moments when the unknown appears, life feels scary, people are overly frightening in their aggression. There is no end to this, and therefore no end to seeking new ways to learn, and new ways to understand the mysteries of life.
Thank you @simond…
When you start looking seriously at what you are searching for, the idea of peace, stillness and bliss seems to make quite a bit of sense, and I’ve read a fair few pieces where Osho seems to support this. The bit in the question in The Search where he says, “[only after committing to a Master] does the real work start” implies that he has a longer path planned out, eventually leading to the bliss he talks about.
There are various other sources which don’t agree with this. The Buddhists often talk about equanimity and cessation after a long path, quite a different goal, and Barry Long talks about about discovering peace in the moment, a different approach. So it seems different traditions and masters set out quite different end states for the search.
But what starts the search is an impulse, that ‘something is lacking’. Some people encounter it at a young age, others when they are older. What exactly it is is given shape by the teachers you find. They fill in the goal for you, and sometimes that is enough. Osho says when you find the right teacher you drop the search.
Life does indeed carry on, but can we be transformed so that we experience it differently?
“Can we be transformed so that we experience it (life) differently?”
It may help to be specific about what the thing that needs changing actually is and why you feel it must be changed.
Otherwise how is it different from wondering whether to wear the Pierre Cardin suit or the Vivienne Westwood culottes to the party?
Well said, Frank.
The detail or the specifics are what many miss.
Instead we go round in circles debating the finer points of theory. This is exactly the problem with most of the non-dualists whose emphasis is on the “being & awareness”, or looking for the “Now”.
@Simond,
Yes, in any walk of life, more clearly formulated questions tend to get clearer answers.
Non-dualists like a good waffle, though.
Did you know, for example, that your problems are simply appearances of impersonal thoughtforms arising in the illusory mindspace of duality which is a contraction of the egoic consciousness of non-doing by the knower of nescience into the nothingness of core nowness that is self-manifested by the illusion of non-being?
Osho did say on a banner above the entrance to one of the Mount Abu meditation camps, “Come to me and I will transform you.” And he did deliver, a lot of sannyasins who came to him were definitely changed people afterwards. A lot of sannyasins I have known were rather special people, just a different kind of energy around them.
What made them different? Their connection to Osho, of course, but also an appreciation of art and design, a creativity, a free-spiritedness that didn’t care so much about money, courage, an alternative way of looking at the world.
In a way that is what sannyas brings. A new name, a master, a mala with his photo inside, a red robe. Just that is enough to mark a man and change his life. But also the psychological changes: a sense of belonging, discourses, meditation, groups.
Maybe that is enough to fulfil the spiritual search.
@NP
Again though, what is the search actually for?
For a cave, there to sit in your chuddies on a tiger skin with white light emanating from your third eye, as you say to yourself: “I made it”?
The same, but in a far-flung monastery peopled with serene saffron slapheads nodding sagely and saying: ”Very good, grasshopper”?
Having an interesting, creative life or accepting a normal one with enlightened acceptance?
Living any life, even a crappy one, with the undercurrent feeling of `this is as good as it gets`?
“what is the search actually for?”
Asking for meaning you can do in all directions.
What is life actually for, because death is waiting sooner or later?
U would definitely pass all the Guru examinations with your wise words.
But as to assisting an ignoramus like me, it’s not very helpful.
Perhaps you could answer your own question in more depth, in your own words rather than a quote from Osho.
U are certainly not that ignoramus, you pretend to be.
I don’t know what the meaning of life is.
Maybe there is no meaning.
But I can understand that there is an urge to know oneself.
Some seeking for an answer, also for the “Why am I here?”
What is the meaning of life? Can you do better than to follow a mysterious mystical urge to a far away sage who promises to transform you?
I think the whole point of enlightenment is to discover the point of enlightenment. The meaning should stand revealed through the transformation.
Best I’ve come across is BL’s “the purpose of life is to be life”. Then, I imagine, all such questions are answered – or become redundant. Beyond that, who knows? An eternal mystery, perhaps, beyond the reach of our mental processes….
Is the spiritual impulse just a desire to give meaning then? Or is it something of its own, like the desire for sex, an impulse to add a new dimension to your life?
For most people religion explains some things and then raises a whole lot more questions, which often add a lot more to one’s life than the answer to the original question… It’s a storytelling exercise where the introduction of continual new elements keeps the ball rolling and rolling. For instance, have you ever tried to read the Bible?
In that way I found Osho’s later years rather interesting, because he simplified. From talking about many religions he seemed to go down to mostly just Zen.
Some of those Zen stories that Osho dug out towards the end were a bit far out. My favourite was:
Master Wang was walking along the road in a storm in the middle of the night and it was pouring with rain. Absolutely pissing down. He was absolutely soaked through.
One of his disciples, Dum Gai, pulled up alongside him in a car, wound down the window and asked: ”Do you want a lift?”
Wang answered. “No thanks, I live in a bungalow.”
Yeah, I’ve met Dum Gai many times. He is everywhere and nowhere and on SN all at the same time. He is especially fond of quoting Osho quotes.
There’s a certain art in thinking up joke names that aren’t immediately obvious. As a non-Chinese speaker it took me several seconds to realise Dum Gai was not a proper Chinese name. Doh! I too am Dum Gai.
Don`t forget Fung Hai and Foon Gai the two Zen masters who taught liberation through enjoying yourself and taking magic mushrooms.
The good auld days…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDKYKD7Gu-s
I am somewhat surprised by the responses to the questions regarding the so-called meaning of life.
It is of course a very abstract question and the very nature of the abstract is that it largely leads nowhere.
If I ask what is the meaning of life, I sense a subtle panic within. It seems like a question we all ask but is so difficult to answer that I’m reminded of being at school, where I’m asked a question I’m supposed to be able to answer.
But there’s a simple solution, don’t make it abstract, but turn itself into a question about Me. So it becomes another entirely. “What is the meaning or purpose of my Lif This simple trick takes the intellectual abstract into a more direct and personal exploration of my own purpose and meaning.
Now I’m freed up to examine my life, in a real way. I can look at my achievements or my mistakes, I can reflect on how my mind and my emotions, and any challenges, have and do affect me. In other words the question becomes yet another one: Who am I? And so, even more questions follow on. Why do I act in this or that way? What disturbs or hurts me? What other forms of self-identity have I taken on? How authentic am I?
I see that many people find these questions difficult.They are a challenge as they involve being honest about myself to and with others. They involve investigating relationships, partners, women, parents, children. They mean discussing jobs, money, self-worth, all areas of real life. Many of which I see we avoid. Instead we prefer to talk about spirituality and meditation, non- duality, Osho, enlightenment and other abstract and impersonal matters.
The personal questions eventually lead to exploring the wider Mind of others. If we explore our own minds, so we discover our minds aren’t so different from anyone else’s. The mind is the mind after all. And our own life experiences and challenges aren’t so different from others’. The more we share our own minds, the more we discover where and if our experiences coalesce.
Such explorations can then lead us to discover not only our own purpose and meaning but where the wider “human condition” may have parallels with our own understanding.
They’ve led me to see that not only am I on my own personal journey to a greater understanding but so too is the human species as a whole. As I’ve evolved so I can see humans are in some sense evolving and sometimes perhaps devolving too. There is in some sense, I can never fully know, a mystery unfolding. I’m a part of it as is everyone else.
Where I once fretted about my own loneliness and angst, I see that others are too similarly facing the same doubts. I no longer feel so divided or separate from my fellow man or woman.
The meaning of life has become a question that can be answered if never fully or with certainty but at least it isn’t just an abstract question, but one that anyone can investigate for themselves.
Why make it so sophisticated?
The meaning of life is simply to be happy.
“Having a meaning” generally involves explaining one thing in terms of another.
That is probably impossible with life because everything is part of life, even death.
The only answer that would make sense is:
Life is life.
Na na na na-na.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQSmfR1_SVE
Life is life is a tautology.
It means nothing.
At the most you dance to the song.
If “life is life is a tautology”, then I wonder what we might say about your profound notion that “the meaning of life is to be happy.”
It’s so totally trite that I wonder how you ever saw anything in Osho at all.
Seems you live in an one-dimensional world, Simon.
You should learn to be a bit more playful with statements.
@satchit, who wrote “the good auld days…”
Very nice to see Osho with a dark beard, it looks like footage from a meditation camp perhaps? Shame the speech is all dubbed in Italian, but still a good find!
Sometimes, although a teacher – or even THE teacher – is available, which nowadays is quite often the case via internet and even physically, and even though one considers oneself a person on a spiritual search, there still is no capacity “to take on (or in) more of it”:
One more talk and another talk and another one. Or sessions online or live.
Or new words for known methods (Embodiment, empowerment for instance…).
There may be a need for more tranquility, walks in nature, watching the clouds in the sky, sleeping under the moon with just a sleeping bag…in order not to feel excited all the time.
That’s what I am in currently, it seems: I could not find any stance or words or opinion somehow suiting the items on this thread…maybe that’s good for me. And for you, too! Hahahahaaaa.
@Klaus, who wrote: “There may be a need for more tranquility, walks in nature, watching the clouds in the sky, sleeping under the moon with just a sleeping bag…in order not to feel excited all the time.”
Reconnecting with nature really helps me from time to time as well. I get on my bicycle and ride through the forests and past the wetlands and on the dikes, sea to one side, land on the other, a sky filled with impressive clouds overhead. The feeling of moving quickly, wind in the hair, helps concentrate the mind.
I used to go on walking holidays in the mountains. I’ve been to Wales, Scotland, the Alsace, the Alps, the Pyrenees, Turkey…quite a few places. But always on reaching high places in the mountains I’ve had that feeling of openness, of being able to see far away, that was close to a spiritual experience. I’ve never been to the Himalayas though.
@Nityaprem
My experience of Holland was that it is exceptionally flat and also good for cycling. Everyone took bikes.
Perhaps the lack of hills is what inspires you to take your trekking holidays in other lands.
‘The Lowlands of Holland’…
https://youtu.be/1cQ4xPhmT3g
The Lowlands of Holland
Quite a few, in fact many years ago I went paddling in Holland – near Monnickendam to Purmerend.
Somehow I must have missed a turn and ended in a dead end. Then a took the boat and carried it over the road and put it in on the other side from where I could carry on!
Instead of the planned 8-10 kilometres or so in the end I did round about 30 kilometres.
But the experience! Wind, water, sun, physical effort, close to everything. Plus a sunburn lasting 3-4 days.
Would do it again!
Cheers to Holland.
Whilst walking in the Welsh mountains, or at least the foothills of the mountains, I have come across clear quartz crystals just lying on the earth.
You won’t find crystals in Holland, just lots of flat ground, clogs, windmills and some good cheeses.
Every winter I go ski-ing in the Dutch Alps.
Joking apart, I had an apartment in Amsterdam’s Jordaan area for some years. It was a fun time. Eventually, I tired of it. I’m a country bumpkin at heart.
@klaus who said: “Sometimes, although a teacher – or even THE teacher – is available, which nowadays is quite often the case via internet and even physically, and even though one considers oneself a person on a spiritual search, there still is no capacity ‘to take on (or in) more of it.’”
I think it is much more difficult to assess a teacher online. For example, I was watching an interview with Tony Parsons on Conscious TV, and I thought, maybe this guy has something, because of his laugh, his openness, and his clarity. Then I talk to my father, who went to see him in person a few years ago in Amsterdam, and he says, “I didn’t think he had it.”
With Osho, there was this luminous quality to him, so clean, like the light of the full moon. In person this would often just blow people away. Not everyone would feel it, but for me it was unmistakable. But in a way he came too soon, I had much living to do, I needed to taste of other things before I could approach again.
So for me, was he the first and last guru? I still feel a liking for Ramana and his lineage. Maybe there is more wandering to be done…
NP says: “With Osho, there was this luminous quality to him, so clean, like the light of the full moon. In person this would often just blow people away.”
Can’t disagree with that, but how do you know he ‘had it’? The truth is you do not know. He might have had something, but you do not actually know if it was ‘it’ or not. We can only recognize something in another that we know in ourselves. Otherwise, it is just guesswork.
Feeling is closer to being than thinking.
Putting the label on it is not essential.
My guess.
Actually, I wanted to put the comment more nicely…like:
In between and wiggled around the thoughts and the feelings and sensations and the emotions we all have clear consciousness.
Therefore, everybody can feel it to a greater or lesser extent in varying degrees….
@lokesh wrote: “Can’t disagree with that, but how do you know he ‘had it’?” and “We can only recognize something in another that we know in ourselves.”
I think Osho said so himself, it’s an affair of the heart. You have to be open to it, and far enough along that you do recognise something of it in yourself, that you recognise it as the right road. And that you see in his presence someone you can trust.
If you start to analyse it, you are on the cusp of losing touch with that feeling. I think many people lose contact with the heart as they get older, they accumulate wounds and acquire habits which are hard to shift, which is one reason so many sannyasins were of a certain age.
NP says: “I think many people lose contact with the heart as they get older, they accumulate wounds and acquire habits which are hard to shift, which is one reason so many sannyasins were of a certain age.”
This is based on pure speculation that is not grounded in fact.
Yes, as people age they often tend to live more habitually for one reason or another. This does not mean that the elderly lose contact with their feelings. I know many elderly people who are open-hearted. Going through the trials and tribulations that accompany ageing often serves to make people more sensitive, due to the vulnerability that is part and parcel of ageing. This in turn serves to create compassion in one’s heart because one realizes everyone is on the same boat.
That many sannyasins were of a certain age is pure nonsense. You were just a kid in Poona One and therefore were perhaps unaware that all age groups formed the community, from the very young to the elderly. The need for deeper meaning in life can arrive in an individual’s life at any time. It hits some when they are young, others when they are old. It all depends on the individual.
As for Osho saying it was an affair of the heart, yes, he said that. He also said a lot of other things. So what? Osho says ad infinitum. That is one thing that you can also realise when you age…you don’t need to parrot a guru’s words, because you have the wealth of your own experience to work from and, if you have lived well, it serves one better than what somebody else says, no matter how enlightened they were.
Now, Lokesh, that is again very nice and sensitive writing, including a lot of understanding. Overstanding, even, haha!
@Lokesh
Seems we remember a few things differently, which is fine.
Of course, it is.
@Nityaprem wonders whether he will travel on with Buddha, Osho, or perhaps Ramana.
I guess Ramana Maharshi might say, it all depends on your destiny….
Swamishanti,
I like the Ramana quote…he is also part of the inspiration that has been following me through the years….
Here’s a similar qoute from Siddharameshwar Maharaj:
@ NP
“I didn’t think he had it.”
Maybe your father ‘has it’.
Is he not already long enough a sannyasin?
@satchit
That’s a terrifying thought that my father might be enlightened. He has been a sannyasin for a long time, but he still watches ‘Ancient Aliens’ on tv.
@ NP
Watching ‘Ancient Aliens’ on tv is a good sign for enlightenment.
Anyway, if you take him as your new Guru, this would be the easy way.
@satchit
I feel it pays one to choose gurus carefully. Much as I like my old dad, he is not really guru material. I’m pretty sure he’d agree, too. He found it difficult enough being a school teacher.
NP, having a dad is better than having a guru.
I can`t stand gurus.
If I ever run into one again and he starts giving me the old “it`s all mind”,”it`s your ego”, “who is asking?” bollocks, it`s going to be a choiceless choice giving the twat a weegie kiss and a short sharp knee in the cream crackers.
If the guru was telling me, “It is all work. You have to do it. Nobody can do it for you.”
I would go: “Ooopssie.”
NP,
Enlightenment is like the clap.
A lot of sannyasins “had it”.
@frank
Enlightenment as a communicable disease, how funny. Maybe it works like that, a lot of people at the commune were kind of blissed out…whether it helped with insight though, that I cannot tell.
A lot of people these days do seem to be having enlightenment experiences, judging from books like Adyashanti’s ‘The End of Your World’, but it seems like very often it’s a temporary thing and not a lasting change.
In my case, “the search” was/is more about how to explain in words the Joy of “this Just be/being”.
When for some reason Life pushes me out from my/that centre, for example during an attack on my surviving/Freedom, or when It seduces me with something sensually exciting, what makes the difference is how Deep Is my trust in Existence, beyond my willingness to be part of It in some special form.
Veet F, sounds good, but can you provide an actual practical example of this, please (as I don’t quite fully understand)?
Satyadeva, I reflected on Nityaprem’s question “do you eventually give up the search?”, replying that in my case the spiritual search is the side-effect of a spiritual experience of wholeness and ecstasy, that is, looking for the words that explain that experience.
An example of these two aspects of research (of truthful explanations and experience of the truth of my being) could be my total disinterest, not even intellectual passion, for books recently suggested to me by a dear close friend. Scrolling through the titles of the paragraphs of the books in question (by David Deida) I recognized a certain competence and plausibility that fall within the standards of other reading fone in the past about the art of relating in intimacy, which would have at least left me curious for a deeper understanding…instead, nothing, a sort of rejection. Yet, at the same time, the feeling of care for her is still strong, but I no longer try to explain according to which model of intimacy or tantra.
Does stopping reading, studying, reflecting, writing about spirituality mean stopping the inner process of witnessing in the spiritual seeker? I think not. Even when that experience of inner joy is only a faded memory, with all the pain that certain memories return, the research/testimony continues.
Sometimes tired and in precarious balance I find myself on narrow and steep paths, and still wondering if I’m there for a death drive or for a deep trust in Existence. The roots of my trust in Existence are founded in the process of understanding the human being and his potential, despite wars, famines, cataclysms and animals predating men; all this at worst fuelling my desire for annihilation.
@veet francesco
There are certain aspects I recognise there, like a lack of energy for spiritual teachers which some time before would have been interesting. I even had a time when I stopped listening to Osho lectures…
I think the inner search does have a connection with what you feed the mind, books, new ideas. Without that you kind of withdraw into silence. I went through a period like that a few years ago when I reflected and meditated a lot and saw relatively few people, preferring just to stay in my top floor apartment with a glimpse of the sea. It was a quiet time, I read a few books but not many.
I’ve been on a bit of a Ramana streak lately, listening to these readings on a YouTube channel where there are quite a few hours of stuff, not in his voice but still. He talks quite a bit about silence, being quiet, surrendering.
And sometimes the right thing to do is just breathe, go walk up a mountain and enjoy the view.
Nityaprem, as for your father, a teaching like Osho’s is enough for me too. In reality, in my case, it is not a question of applying principles or rules of behaviour, but, rather, of drawing on the posture that his teaching method invites me to assume, of openness and trust in the abundance of options that an open heart always inspires.
But what happens, for example, to our hearts when the teacher’s words, or despite them, trigger the behaviour of Sheela’s gang or Reagan’s one? What non-violent options are available against such violence? The implications of recognizing an objective violence taking place on our heads means preparing for defence and possible counter-attack, a somewhat unusual posture for a spiritual seeker, but I don’t think it is of less value.
Can spiritual research be fuelled with new books and ideas that help make the war against humanity’s enemies more effective and less destructive? I would say yes.
Veet Francesco, I think there are usually options against violence. Look at Ghandi or at the Dalai Lama. We in the West are not very used to ahimsa, harmlessness, but for a spiritual seeker it is a very useful attitude.
Trusting in Existence is all very well and also an old sannyasin motto. But what exactly is Existence? We probably all have different answers to that question. It is all good as long as it does not involve Mother Nature because she totally lacks compassion.
The thing about the trusting in Existence game is that it requires 100% surrender. 99% will not do the trick.
@Lokesh
I think that is what @veet francesco is saying, that the depth of his trust in Existence rather got challenged by a few situations. I can sympathise, it is easy to trust Existence when the fecal matter isn’t hitting the rotating air-moving device.
Embracing what life brings is the name of the game. Not always easy.
Nityaprem, I believe shit has been hitting the global fan for a couple of years now. Talking about spiritual research could be a way to hold on to the past, wearing a brown shirt so as not to notice the sketches of the present.
@veet francesco
The last couple of years haven’t been easy, but still…
“The greatest gift you can give to the world is your own self realisation.”
(Sri Ramana Maharshi)
“The greatest gift you can give to the world is your own self-realization.”
Whose form no one can predict.
Veet Francesco
Shit happens in this world. That’s true.
Who are the enemies of humankind?
Al Jazeera has won two amnesty awards for best investigative documentary:
Quote
I-Unit wins for an investigation into Bangladesh state corruption; AJ English wins for a report on rape as a weapon of war.
Unquote
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/al-jazeera-wins-amnesty-media-awards-for-best-investigation
And here is the documentary of 1 hour in English: ‘All the Prime Minister’s Men’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6v_levbUN4
The incriminated guys grew up in a poor family in Dhaka/Bangladesh. For a living, they turned to gang criminality at an early age. They became so important that politicians turned to them for their “help”.
Today, one of the brothers is the Army General and so forth and so forth….
Reading the comments below the video is also quite interesting.
This is not meant to push ourselves into more depression, but to see how others must live and feel the heartbreak that this (might) mean for humankind in general. And for each individual hit by such circumstances.
“We don’t need our own criminal thugs. We own the police.”
Goodluck.
I read something along the lines of this yesterday. The problems of the world are like a sea. You are like a boat on the surface of this vast expanse of water. If you do not allow the waters of negativity to enter your boat, you will sail home. I kinda like that idea.
Oh, the guy has an upside down umbrella as a boat! Cool.
The affairs of the world are endless…so should be our equanimity.
Watching the Al Jazeera video ‘All the (Bangladesh) Prime Minister’s Men’ I did not let negativity overcome me.
Rather, I came down from naivety, over-positivity regarding the possiblities of change in that country’s politicial situation.
I feel I was naive in that I approached actions with a “can do” and a totally ethical attitude: that a party or a candidate can win without any cheating, deceiving, criminal support – ballot stuffing, vote snatching, intimidation of voters at the booth, harassing the other candidates and so forth.
Mind you, Rajneeshpuram also comes to mind: non-corrupted and non-criminal actions could have brought different results. Possibly, in my naive mind.
We were close “to the action”, weren’t we?
I am quite close to the action in Bangladesh as my relatives are telling me tales of their efforts to vote: “When I wanted to cast my vote the observers were telling me that my vote ‘already had been cast’.”
A few years ago I took part in a presentation of how “EVM electronic voting machines can be corrupted via mobile phones”. Result: they can be!
In the upcoming elections the Bangladesh government suggests that EVMs will be used in all voting stations.
As a consequence, IMO presumably not one single result will be correct.
In this sense I had ‘a real life eperience’: such is the world.
Cheers.
Klaus, I understand your reasons for checking out political developments in Bangladesh. Thing is, even though it can affect our lives, politics is a very low energy game. Look at that nutcase, Putin, a perfect example of a lying politician, who will do anything to prolong his grip on power, even if it involves slaughtering thousands of innocent people.
This world has had wars going on since humans first roamed the Earth. Nothing new there.
I see it that our stay here is brief, so why get identified with any of that bullshit, unless some fascists are kicking in your front door? It is a passing show and it has been running for a very long time.
Lokesh
Yes, that is clear to me, too. Observing is kind of a hobby.
Plus it brings disillusionment with it and loss of hope.
So I am losing baggage and finding compassion.
Losing is good.
@Klaus
After all the things Osho had to say about politics and politicians, we still have to realise that it has very little benefit for the world or ourselves to get involved. Why not spend your time in a more wholesome way, like something creative or therapeutic?
@Lokesh
You are right with your boat metaphor. But we get so much “news” pushed at us that it’s easy to make the mistake to think that it’s important to us.
Some time ago I made the decision not to watch news on the tv anymore, and to drastically reduce my news intake from the internet. I now check The Guardian’s front page once a day, read maybe one or two articles and that’s it.
I can thoroughly recommend it. You almost certainly won’t miss anything important, end up spending a lot less time and be a lot less anxious.
Snap! I made a similar decision quite a while ago, NP, severely rationing my exposure to the news media.
But I do enjoy the brilliant satirical humour of John Crace and Marina Hyde in the online ‘Guardian’ and more or less anything critical of Boris Johnson whom I’ve enjoyed having come to thoroughly detest (very therapeutic, I find!).
@Nityaprem
Very sound advice, thanks.
I haven’t been watching TV news for x years.
I also read the Guardian online 3-4 times a week – certainly not the war news, however.
Rather “A new start after 60″ – “Beautiful homes in the countryside” – “Australian First Dog on the Moon” cartoons…
2-3 times a week I check the dailystar.net for news on Bangladesh (I have many relatives there…).
I spend about 3 hours a day walking in nature with the occasional sitting meditation and or zikhr (if it comes by itself).
In the mornings and before sleep I do some QiGong (these 15 minutes affect sleep quality indeed!).
In the mornings, too, I prepare my daughter’s lunchbox and bring her to school; later I help her doing some homework and study.
My wife and daugther took part in the last Ramadan, we celebrated Iftars and Eid, with very, very healthy food; spent half days in silence.
In this way, my life is quite wholesome.
No complaints from my side…I do not miss this world too much, once I have lost it….
Frustration across the nation…the news is always bad. Reading and watching the news is more a men thing. Women take in less crap on that level than men do. I never watch TV news but read the Guardian online etc.
Back in 1984 Alvin Toffler published a book called Future Shock. Toffler predicted that news would become a major form of entertainment. He was right.
Broadcasters understand that bad news sells because it feeds people’s negative emotions. The war in Ukraine is a goldmine for them.
Makes me think of a Don Henley song, ‘Dirty Laundry’…
I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something, something I can use
People love it when you lose, they love dirty laundry
Well, I could’ve been an actor, but I wound up here
I just have to look good, I don’t have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear, give us dirty laundry
Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em all around
We got the bubble-headed bleach-blonde who comes on at five
She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye
It’s interesting when people die, give us dirty laundry
Can we film the operation? Is the head dead yet?
You know the boys in the newsroom got a running bet
Get the widow on the set, we need dirty laundry
You don’t really need to find out what’s going on
You don’t really want to know just how far it’s gone
Just leave well enough alone, keep your dirty laundry
Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down
Kick ‘em when they’re stiff, kick ‘em all around
(Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)
(Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)
(Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)
(Kick ‘em when they’re stiff, kick ‘em all around)
Dirty little secrets, dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers in everybody’s pie
Love to cut you down to size, we love dirty laundry
We can do the innuendo, we can dance and sing
When it’s said and done, we haven’t told you a thing
We all know that crap is king, give us dirty laundry
(Kick ‘em when they’re up, kick ‘em when they’re down)….
Don Henley:
I dedicate this song to Rupert Murdoch!’
I saved the live version with Glen Frey to my favourites 2 weeks ago!
Got rhythm ‘n makes sense.
I like to watch a lot of news. I wouldn`t want to be in a situation where I didn`t know what was going on in the world. I need to know exactly and by the minute, how many people have been blown to bits, knifed, shot and mugged within a proximity of say, 8000 miles from where I live. And simply couldn`t live without knowing which celebrity has shagged which other celebrity, especially when it turns nasty and ends up in court. And then there`s the advertising, it`s amazing how all the ads that appear in front of me are exactly what I want and need just at that moment. Who says magic doesn`t exist?
Ok, it can get a bit tense at times, but then I just log on to some porn sites to relax for a few hours and have the odd break for a burger, soft drinks, beers and some chocolate muffins. And if I`m feeling philosophical after taking some drugs I bought on the dark web and need some alternative views I switch onto Joe Rogan, Russell Brand and Alex Jones. I`m a firm believer in keeping informed and getting a holistic view, too.
@Frank
Ah, thanks for coming in and bringing some balance.
Just in time. ::))
When you think about it, looking for gurus is a lot like surfing the channels on TV looking for something decent to watch.
In the end, people tend to either give up as new stuff is mostly cack, or they end up watching reruns of their old favourites….
I remember reading about an anthropologist in some far-flung place studying some tribe in Meso America, I think, sometime in the 1970s.
They told him about a private ritual that they did every week and he was very interested to be the first westerner that had heard about it. They arranged for him to be present. They were very happy and enthusiastic about this ritual and the anthropologist became convinced that he was really onto something. He was ambitious and sure that he was going to make it big in anthropology as a result of this ground-breaking work.
On the evening of the ritual everyone was in high spirits and they all met at the tribal elder`s hut. In the corner was a cloth covering what was obviously the ritual object. With great reverence the elder removed the cloth and under it was a TV set. They then proceeded to watch ‘The Partridge Family’ with all the tribals falling about laughing and enjoying themselves immensely.
@ Frank
It is a shallow idea that looking for gurus is like surfing the channels of the tv.
As I see it there is some hunger and crisis needed.
If everything is fine there is no need for a guru.
@Lokesh
I believe you’ll find ‘Future Shock’ was first published in 1970, but it was far ahead of its time. The young people are able to keep up with the pace of change, and the older folks say, “Boy, doesn’t the world move fast?”
Also RIP the iPod, discontinued today by Apple. I remember when you could first get one of these devices which would put “10,000 songs in your pocket”, as Steve Jobs put it.
Perfectly correct, Satchit!
It is certainly a shallow idea that looking for gurus is like surfing the channels of the tv, unless of course, one is watching the box in mighty Bhorat:
https://www.tvchannelpricelist.com/channel_category/spiritual-channels/
Certainly, not all disciples can achieve the oceanic depths of profundity of an Ananda…a Tilopa…a Shantam…a Dhyanraj…a Satchit…
And it is utterly clear that the depth of your statements on SN are nearly as deep as the depth of guano, parrot droppings and empty bottles of Alzheimer Pils strewn on the floor of your parrot cage!
Swami Bhorat and Osho are extremely fortunate to have disciples of your calibre!
Without you, their movements would have sunk into the oblivion of Netflix crime documentaries, abuse scandals, inter-sect power struggles, counter-accusations of a string various felonies and the odd spiritually-retarded football fan endlessly posting glib, facile, flimsy spiritual quotes on an obscure website!
Hari Om!
Yahoo!
@Nityaprem
11 May, 2022 at 7:18 am
In the 70s my favourite books regarding the state of society were:
Dennis Meadows and the Club of Rome – Limits of Growth
Neil Postman – Amusing ourselves to death
Alvin Toffler – Future shock
Those still seem to have at least some reverberation today.
Link to Neil Postman:
https://neilpostman.org/
Quote:
Subjects should be taught as history. “Every teacher,” Postman said, “must be a history teacher.” Every subject has a fascinating history. Facts and dates are memorization, not understanding. To teach a subject without the history of how it happened “is to reduce knowledge to a mere consumer product,” he said. “It is to deprive students of a sense of the meaning of what we know, and of how we know.”
Smart understanding.
@klaus
Thanks for the Neil Postman link and quote, I very much agree with him. I once had a physics teacher who taught in that style, with experiments and lives of scientists from centuries past, it was fascinating. Probably the best teacher I ever had.
Veet Francesco
Shit happens in this world. That’s true.
Who are the enemies of humankind?
Al Jazeera has won two amnesty awards for best investigative documentary:
Quote
I-Unit wins for an investigation into Bangladesh state corruption; AJ English wins for a report on rape as a weapon of war.
Unquote
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/al-jazeera-wins-amnesty-media-awards-for-best-investigation
And here ist the documentary of 1 hour in English: “All the Prime Minister’s Men”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6v_levbUN4
The incriminated guys grew up in a poor family in Dhaka/Bangladesh. For a living, they turned to gang criminality at an early age. They became so important, that politicians turned to them for their “help”.
Today, one of the brothers is the Army General and so forth and so forth…..
Reading the comments below the video is also quite interesting.
This is not meant to push ourselves into more depression, but to see how others must live and feel the heartbreak that this (might) mean(s) for humankind in general. And for each individual hit by such circumstances.
“We don’t need our own criminal thugs. We own the police.”
Goodluck.
Ciao, Klaus, there are global institutions which can do criminal policies without paying for It. To understand Who Is the entity-ies backstage you have to follow the Money. (Giovanni Falcone).
Veet Francesco
I once read this quote:
‘Those who have the strongest weapons will get (most of) the money.’
In the end, this will be what weapons are used for….
That’s been the case for a very long time though, Klaus.
Satyadeva
I guess that’s correct.
Only one did not know about so many things as we do now.
And nobody promised that the world would only get better.
One keeps on getting disillusioned, step by step.
It certainly was true in the days of gold and silver. Recent wars seem to have been about other things, like IS or Yemen or Ukraine.
@Veet Francesco
On a positive note:
In 1984 I met an Italian guy named Mauro Bergonzi on a meditation retreat in UK. We had a great mutual understanding.
Last week, I had the impulse to check if I could find out what he might be up to currently…and guess what:
He is himself teaching meditation at
https://cortonafriends.org/mauro-bergonzi/
Lovely, indeed.
‘Trusting in Existence’.
“But what exactly is Existence?”
Yeah,Loco, you can also ask, but what exactly is trust?
Remember the words of your Master:
“Real trust cannot be betrayed.” ?
Grateful that you joined the chat here, Nityaprem – and in my view with an equanimity quite needed in these turbulent times.
I m still busy with your last lines of the thread narrative as the quest of yours where you mention the ZEN Bulls reminded me of times in Pune 2 where some Japanese and one Chinese calligrapher started the ’10 Bull Paintings’.
We were in awe about it, seeing the painters in the Garden.
There are simply Metaphors, Narratives and Recomments which never die, aren’t there?
Rainy Sunday here. Nature enjoys!
Madhu
MOD:
Good to see you here again, Madhu.
Could you clarify what “Recomments” are, please?
@madhu dagmar frantzen
It’s my pleasure to be here; lately I have been thinking a lot about Osho and the spiritual search, and it made sense to find one of the few places on the internet where one can talk with fellow sannyasins.
Some quotes, stories, pictures and poetry indeed never die, but get passed on to the next generation.
Ramana quote for the day…
“The Power that created you has created the world as well. If it can take care of you, it can similarily take care of the world also. If God has created the world, it is His business to look after it, not yours.”
(Sri Ramana Maharshi)
Well – Nityaprem – this was and is a quite powerful quote you passed over ( without inner or outer then context from the loving and lovely Sangha around this – one can say pinnacle of a human Being -times and times ago )
What I have in my shelves are heartwarming testimonials from his Lovers frim times ago
I mean- besides the photos from Ramana taken by His Lovers – which seem to give – up to today – an impression of a Living Warmth.
And yet- from some hear-say – I heard from some fellow travellers who visited the place Arunachala that He- Ramana-
could silence questioners also in a stern way up to the point to throw some out from the gathering.
Would love to know more of your context to your chosen quote, if you don t mind ?
I ended up like so often in the inner search re the ability to respond or vice versa the inability to respond with the danger to be in a ” flight-fight-freeze” old habits.
As far as ” God” is concerned ” He” left that kind of work discernment) over for that bodhy-mind-Soul called “me”.
About the Love in Ramana s Presence, we cannot speak I d say.
Madhu
PS for Lokesh:
weather today :sunny and exhausting heat. Will soon be time to water the garden.
Madhu, thanks for the hot weather update.
Btw, did you watch the sannyasin docu on NDR last night? All about sannyasins in Germany then and now. Positive and fun at times. Made me realize I was once part of a religious cult. It was a blast and Osho was groovy. ZZ Top of the spiritual world. Sheela was, once again, shown to be the stupid egotist she always was.
@Lokesh
I will have to wait a bit before watching the doc on NDR last night – as – for a week now,
I m not able, for tech reasons, to watch anything on TV or broadcasting media tech stuff – as my borrowed notebook (to do this) hasn’t functioned for a week.
You say, Lokesh, the mentioned NDR TV contribution made you realize you were once a part of a religious cult.
No surprise I guess that we may have a different view according re our sannyas life-story?
Weather report of the day: Cloudy. Cooled down temperature (which is good for my health-situation at my place here).
Me: Cloud watching…in – as outside.
Madhu
Perhaps your brainwashing was different. Osho washes better than ever before.
@ Lokesh/ 12 May, 2022 at 2:27 pm
GASLIGHTING (from ‘Psychology Today’, 2020)
“Some people try to be tall by cutting off the heads of others.”
— Paramahansa Yogananda
Gaslighting is a form of persistent manipulation and brainwashing that causes the victim to doubt her or himself, and to ultimately lose one’s own sense of perception, identity, and self-worth. Gaslighting statements and accusations are usually based on blatant lies, or exaggeration of the truth.
Passive-aggressiveness can be defined as anger or hostility in disguise, expressed in underhanded ways to exercise power, control, and deception, with the hopes of “getting away with it.”
Although many forms of gaslighting are overt and obtrusive (i.e. persistent and false verbal attacks, accusations, condescension, judgement, and criticism), there are also passive-aggressive forms of gaslighting that are more subtle and difficult to detect at the outset, and can carry the same negative contagion and toxic manipulativeness as overt gaslighting.
@Lokesh, who wrote “made me realize I was once part of a religious cult.”
It’s easy to default to society’s view and call it a cult. But then you haven’t learned what Osho had to say about society, who was often a rebel and a man of religiousness, not religion. I still think of Sannyas as a movement, not as a cult, and it is part of a continuing dialogue to frame it that way.
A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life’s questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader’s rules, and if you do not think there were any rules you are dreaming. You can tick the boxes and see if Sannyas constitutes a cult:
The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
The group is preoccupied with making money.
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
The group’s leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).
The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
Members’ subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
There was an interesting statement in this German Sannyas doc, that they miss young people living with them in Parimal.
Someone said that the reason is that young people are more interested in a living Guru.
Old people’s home.
Satchit, yes, it was an interesting ducu. Most of the sannyasins came across as interesting and intelligent people. I might be classified as ‘old’ but I’m afraid I could not stand hanging out with a bunck of oldies, getting choked up as they sing along to Osho’s greatest hits. It would hurt my teeth.
Yes Lokesh, singing functions better with a living Guru.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqEe6lo1z-I
MOD:
Is this the recent tv programme Lokesh mentioned the other day, Satchit?
SATCHIT:
Yes Mod, it was 3 days ago on tv.
What I found, while watching the NDR docu, was the progression of what Sannyas became once it arrived in Oregon. Osho behind the wheel of a Rolls during the drive-by, sannyasins doing the pogo to wishy-washy songs, Sheela strutting around like an orange peacock, serious-faced sannyasin security personnel toting automatic weapons, all added up to bullshit.
Viewed in retrospect this is especially so, taking into consideration confirmed reports of Osho using the drive-bys to check out women for middle of the night tantra sessions to have their chakras realigned, Sheela being behind a lot of crazy crimes, including mass poisonings etc.
The Ranch was doomed to failure from the get-go, and it was a waste of the commune’s financial resources and physical energy. It must be remembered it was Osho who placed Sheela in a position of power that would ruin the whole scene. There were dozens of places in the world that would have been better to set up a commune, but idiot Sheela chose Oregon…the rest is history.
Some friends have told me they loved the Ranch, others could not escape quickly enough.
Of course, Osho somehow managed to get back on the trackless track, but not before his health was ruined, for one reason or another.
It is all water under the bridge and I would not have mentioned any of this were it not for viewing an interesting docu.
I watched some of the docu, despite it being in German which I only understand a little, and found quite a few positive things in it. The old footage of meditation, the parts about Parimal, the interviews.
It depends with what kind of eye you look at it. If you look for a cult with crazy happenings you can emphasize those parts. I choose not to; if you want to you can see a lot that was good in the sannyasin movement.
If you ask me, I would say Osho was aware from the beginning that the Oregon-project would fail.
Why? Because it was a house building on the bridge.
Everything you try to create in this world will fail sooner or later.
Maybe he even put Sheela in this position so that it could happen sooner. Why wait so long because it would fail anyway?
The message was always the eternal of the here and now and never of a spiritual dream in the world.
“Maybe he even put Sheela in this position so that it could happen sooner. Why wait so long because it would fail anyway?”
The version of Osho that suggests he knew everything. Which with only a little thought collapses when one takes into account that the failure in Oregon with all its crimes and scandals seriously undermined Osho’s work – not least by leading to his premature death.
Satchit
15 May, 9.50h
Good one! Impermanence counts everywhere.
Satchit spouting his usual spiritual cliches. This time based on pure speculation and make-believe. I do not think anything that happened on that level was forseen by Osho. When the time arrived to get out of the house when it was on fire he jumped out the window.
@SD
In my opinion, Osho’s work was help for growth and not to create an everlasting commune.
Well, of course, Satchit. But to suggest he might have appointed Sheela knowing she’d create an unholy mess which would end up seriously harming his movement’s reputation, himself and his potential influence defies common sense.
Osho as an investor in failure and suffering? In your dreams, swami!
Lokesh, you only see the surface.
You are a failure in understanding.
SD, can we agree on this point that Osho is surendered to Existence, that he is no more?
So what is then Existence?
Is it always nice and loving?
No, it is also war and destruction.
So are you suggesting that in appointing or even, in your terms, ‘allowing’ Sheela to be in charge, Osho was aware that “war and destruction” would follow, including attacks on his own body that would significantly shorten his life and hence reduce the impact of his life’s work, while also bringing him and his movement into disrepute? And that all this was the ‘will of Existence’ to which he had no choice except to surrender?
Have you considered that, due to his lack of first-hand experience of America and its likely response, as well as his trust in her, he simply made a mistake (which, by the way, is also part of Existence – unless you want to choose only those aspects that fit your explanation)?
SD, no, I don’t suggest that he knew what Sheela would do.
We also don’t know what he talked about to her.
It is all a field of speculation and belief.
Anything to say re this question, Satchit?
Have you considered that, due to his lack of first-hand experience of America and its likely response, as well as his trust in her, he simply made a mistake (which, by the way, is also part of Existence – unless you want to choose only those aspects that fit your explanation)?
Re “mistake”
Mistakes happen if there is a goal.
If there is no goal, if it is a play, then there is no mistake.
In that case, Satchit, if it’s just “a play”, so nothing matters and therefore “no mistake’ is even conceivable, why do you think Osho publically criticised both Sheela and the US authorities so heavily?
Do you honestly think that he was ‘beyond’ feeling angry, betrayed, sad, even disappointed (see his reaction to the absence of trees at the Ranch when he first arrived there)? Sure, his enlightened brain would avoid being identified with such negativity but I’d be very surprised if he didn’t have preferences as to outcomes, as well as to the local landscape.
There was indeed “a goal”, to establish a self-sufficient spiritual commune where people could immerse themselves, grow in love and consciousness, and which had the potential to inspire humanity. Which Osho had announced and had wanted to pursue for quite a while as the place where his work would flower, for a large number of people, preferably away from the hassles of the outside woirld.
The problem in your reading of the situation is that you’re ok with giving Osho credit for inspiring the Ranch commune’s two or three years of success, in the face of huge outside pressure, exacerbated by his choice of top person, but you don’t want to assign any responsibility to him for its eventual failure (to which the same person contributed much). Great when he ‘won’ (what an omnisciently inspirational master!) and intrinsically blameless when he ‘lost’ (nothing matters, for him it was only “play”!).
However, he did say, on his return to India from America I think, something like, “Nothing matters except my silence.” Which doesn’t mean he was incapable of making a mistake, but that his enlightened mastery was still intact, thus his capacity to inspire and help his people.
Satchit
“There are only two things:
Mystics and mistakes.”
Quote: Sadhguru
I guess he fully trusted his chosen experts. And went with it.
Imo, it certainly did affect his longevity.
@Lokesh
Some of those points certainly apply (“charismatic leader”, “mind numbing meditations”) and some of them do not (“polarised us-vs-them mentality”: most of the time not, “leadership inducing guilt feelings” I have never come across, “members encouraged to socialise only with other group members”).
I think it’s also a question what originates from sannyasins in leadership roles, and what comes from Osho. I would say, disregard what the leadership contributes. Sannyas for me was something that was given by Osho, and whatever the commune chooses to do is kind of separate from that. They have very little authority, and a rather poor track record from all reports.
One thing to realise is that you are responsible for your own financial state. The commune would love to absorb all your money, but it would be unwise to let them do this. The reality of the world we live in is such that it is very much safer to keep your own cash. This is the key turning point for the commune’s control of people’s lives and avoiding undue pressure. In the end we are seekers on our own path, and the commune is no more than a spiritual resort.
What? You do not think a “polarised us-vs-them mentality” existed on the Ranch. You must be joking.
You can add not believing you are part of a cult when in a cult to the list.
Really, I do not take any of this stuff seriously. It is all so old hat. Suggested reading, Joel Kramer’s ‘The Guru Papers’. You can download a PDF for free. It is a worthwhile read.
I’m finished with the guru trip.
@Lokesh
There was a small problem with the mods editing my post, I wrote “polarised us-vs-them mentality” most of the time not. Yes, on the Ranch there were periods when that happened, but many other times the focus was elsewhere.
Thanks for the suggested reading, I found a pdf which I will read. Seems a good source. Might take a little while though.
But even so, I think a lot of the cultish aspects of the commune came from sannyasins put in a position of responsibility, and not from Osho. I don’t mean to say Osho could do no wrong, sometimes he made mistakes. But it’s an important distinction.
@Lokesh
I read the first 100 pages or so of Joel Kramer’s rather waffly effort ‘The Guru Papers’ but didn’t find it compelling. The authors were building all kinds of anti-guru arguments out of thought processes which I was supposed to have had, but in fact they were totally foreign to me. It reads like an anti-guru polemic, an attempt at brainwashing itself.
Ultimately, control is futile anyway. If a guru asks you to surrender to him, you answer, “I surrender until such time that it no longer suits me.” Which is as much surrender as anyone can promise — in reality there is no such thing.
Osho never asked for my surrender, and he was never authoritarian to me. I don’t really view him as a guru, more as a spiritual friend.
Yes, NP, it’s all good. Whatever floats your wee boat.
‘The Guru Papers’ does make clear certain inherent problems with communes with a single spiritual leader, I’ll give you that. I’m reading a bit deeper into it and it’s not entirely without merit.
NP, maybe you were a bit quick off the mark condemning ‘The Guru Papers’. It has been out for a long time, but I believe it is quite an important book. Did you come across the part where they described one guru, Osho of course, becoming allergic to his disciples? It is a funny way to put it but in a way it is true.
Lokesh, the authors do say they have strong anti-guru opinions. It’s a biased book. I’ve read the first half, which is the whole bit about gurus, and while there are some things which do apply to Osho, the majority of points they raise about gurus and cults do not apply.
That said, it’s a pretty good book to read for if you ever get caught up with a dodgy fake-guru cult you will be able to spot the signs.
The thing is, I’m not blind to Osho’s faults. But I am also aware of his merits. I think he was better than most in that position.
NP, of course, it’s a biased book. Anything interpreted by the mind is bound to be biased.
Osho was often biased in his criticisms of other spiritual teachers, politicians and revered personages.
SD, seems you project a bit of stuff on me.
Certainly one can be angry without being identified. Every actor can do it and it is a play for him.
ABC of Sannyas is that it is a play, have you forgotten?
Even if one plays it serious, it is still a play.
Ok, Satchit, it’s a play. Which is all very well for a guy like Osho but beyond the capacities of most of us, when things get, shall we say, rather more ‘serious’ (if I may use this word with such an implacably non-serious person as yourself), eg in times of crisis: death, injury, betrayal, serious loss, etc. etc.
I ask again: Was Osho capable of making a mistake? If so, can you provide an example, please?
Madhu, I look at the photos of Ramana and I feel a warm presence. As far as I know he was more about self-enquiry and silence than about the path of love, but there is still a lot we can learn from that. I’m currently reading the book of his sayings, ‘Be As You Are’, edited by David Godman, which seems to be a pretty approachable text.
The quote was more said with laying down burdens in mind…the news and television shows bring the war in Ukraine so close, it’s like we are in some way expected to do something, contribute to keeping the peace. But Ramana says, lay your burden down and give it to God. In sannyasin terms, let the universe take care — do what you feel you must, and then drop it.
I would love to have so much mindfulness that the fight, flight or freeze reflex no longer kicks in, but the most I seem to be able to do is delay it…I just go, “Ah right, is that so? Let me look.” And then I go and ponder and usually by the time I have come to a decision the emergency is over.
Nityaprem, I need to share my gratitude that you came up here as a former “sannyas-kid”, contributing the very thread, we are still into in ‘Sannyasnews’.
Finally! Feeling someone is coming up here in this caravanserai for a “peace-train- exchange” and not for an expert-competition or in a kind of (hidden or open) revengeful mood amongst the meanwhile sannyas-generations.
Ramana Maharshi you mentioned yesterday, has been/is one if these rather rare universal “citizens” – not unlike Osho was/is.
We are on our way.
In turbulent times one can say. And mostly not being able to lay our burden down “just like this”.
I ve been in tears reading one or the other of your contributions and I cannot say if these were tears of sorrow or sadness. Or coming from some other source.
I really cannot say.
Was reminded of the poem by Bertolt Brecht which struck my heart when I was still at school here in Germany and I love to share that with you today:
Truly, I live in dark times!
An artless word is foolish. A smooth forehead
Points to insensitivity. He who laughs
Has not yet received
The terrible news.
What times are these, in which
A conversation about trees is almost a crime
For in doing so we maintain our silence about so much wrongdoing!
And he who walks quietly across the street,
Passes out of the reach of his friends
Who are in danger?
It is true: I work for a living
But, believe me, that is a coincidence. Nothing
That I do gives me the right to eat my fill.
By chance I have been spared. (If my luck does not hold,
I am lost.)
They tell me: eat and drink. Be glad to be among the haves!
But how can I eat and drink
When I take what I eat from the starving
And those who thirst do not have my glass of water?
And yet I eat and drink.
I would happily be wise.
The old books teach us what wisdom is:
To retreat from the strife of the world
To live out the brief time that is your lot
Without fear
To make your way without violence
To repay evil with good —
The wise do not seek to satisfy their desires,
But to forget them.
But I cannot heed this:
Truly I live in dark times!
II
I came into the cities in a time of disorder
As hunger reigned.
I came among men in a time of turmoil
And I rose up with them.
And so passed
The time given to me on earth.
I ate my food between slaughters.
I laid down to sleep among murderers.
I tended to love with abandon.
I looked upon nature with impatience.
And so passed
The time given to me on earth.
In my time streets led into a swamp.
My language betrayed me to the slaughterer.
There was little I could do. But without me
The rulers sat more securely, or so I hoped.
And so passed
The time given to me on earth.
The powers were so limited. The goal
Lay far in the distance
It could clearly be seen although even I
Could hardly hope to reach it.
And so passed
The time given to me on earth.
III
You, who shall resurface following the flood
In which we have perished,
Contemplate —
When you speak of our weaknesses,
Also the dark time
That you have escaped.
For we went forth, changing our country more frequently than our shoes
Through the class warfare, despairing
That there was only injustice and no outrage.
And yet we knew:
Even the hatred of squalor
Distorts one’s features.
Even anger against injustice
Makes the voice grow hoarse. We
Who wished to lay the foundation for gentleness
Could not ourselves be gentle.
But you, when at last the time comes
That man can aid his fellow man,
Should think upon us
With leniency.”
(Bertolt Brecht, ‘An Die Nachgeborenen’, first published in Svendborger Gedichte (1939) in: Gesammelte Werke, vol. 4, pp. 722-25 (1967)(S.H. transl.))
Madhu, that’s an excellent poem. It really speaks to what the Buddha also said about anger and hate, that indulging in these emotions is like “holding a hot coal and expecting the other person to be burnt.”
There is a mindfulness trick that I learned from the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh, that whenever you experience an emotion like that, you pause and just focus your attention on it mindfully, and you will find that within 30 seconds the emotion disappears. Funny, eh?
Wisdom is a tricky thing, you can’t accumulate it by just reading the words of the wise. At the most we can use their words to underline something we had already seen for ourselves. Then a quote can definitely come in handy!
The “peace train”, yeah, I like that very much. It is about filling the mind with what is really worthwhile knowing, doing the things that make life richer and healthier and more wholesome.
I find that competition, being seen as expert (so often just a sham), grudges and ill-feeling aren’t really behaviours worth being shared. So often it’s just feeding the ego, it’s better to focus the attention on other things.
During my reading in buddhism I came across a small meditation of Atisha, which basically stated that since everything was left behind at death, one would be best off working on those things that one could take with one, and those are the fruits of the spiritual search. It made a great impression on me.
Poem to Poem
There is one more lovely poem by another German author which I find a valuable quote:
Hermann Hesse: ‘Stufen’ (‘Steps’)
A German poem with English translation following below.
Wie jede Blüte welkt und jede Jugend
Dem Alter weicht, blüht jede Lebensstufe,
Blüht jede Weisheit auch und jede Tugend
Zu ihrer Zeit und darf nicht ewig dauern.
Es muß das Herz bei jedem Lebensrufe
Bereit zum Abschied sein und Neubeginne,
Um sich in Tapferkeit und ohne Trauern
In andre, neue Bindungen zu geben.
Und jedem Anfang wohnt ein Zauber inne,
Der uns beschützt und der uns hilft, zu leben.
Wir sollen heiter Raum um Raum durchschreiten
An keinem wie an einer Heimat hängen,
Der Weltgeist will nicht fesseln uns und engen,
Er will uns Stuf’ um Stufe heben, weiten.
Kaum sind wir heimisch einem Lebenskreise
Und traulich eingewohnt, so droht Erschlaffen,
Nur wer bereit zu Aufbruch ist und Reise,
Mag lähmender Gewöhnung sich entraffen.
Es wird vielleicht auch noch die Todesstunde
Uns neuen Räumen jung entgegen senden
Des Lebens Ruf an uns wird niemals enden…
Wohlan denn, Herz, nimm Abschied und gesunde!
As every blossom fades
and all youth sinks into old age,
so every life’s design, each flower of wisdom,
attains its prime and cannot last forever.
The heart must submit itself courageously
to life’s call without a hint of grief,
A magic dwells in each beginning,
protecting us, telling us how to live.
High purposed we shall traverse realm on realm,
cleaving to none as to a home,
the world of spirit wishes not to fetter us
but raise us higher, step by step.
Scarce in some safe accustomed sphere of life
have we establish a house, then we grow lax;
only he who is ready to journey forth
can throw old habits off.
Maybe death’s hour too will send us out new-born
towards undreamed-lands,
maybe life’s call to us will never find an end
Courage my heart, take leave and fare thee well.
It touches me every time I take enough time to read it slowly – and see memories and their accompanying sadness floating by.
I ask myself:
“Did I take leave? Do I fare well?”
For the translation I took it from this website:
https://wisemommies.com/hermann-hesse-stufen-steps/
SD, your question will not become better if you repeat it.
“Was Osho capable of making a mistake?”
The truth is Osho was enlightened so He was no more, only Existence was.
So the real question must be:
Is Existence capable of making a mistake?
Now it depends on the goal.
If you want that this planet survives, you can say creating the human race was a mistake.
Enough for today.
Having been reborn was an unavoidable mistake.
Now why would I have such a reactive thought?
???&%§$%$§”%§$”%
By the way:
Did you know that
“Bob Dylan was born Robert Allen Zimmerman. His paternal grandparents fled the Ukraine in 1905 because of anti-Semitic persecution. His maternal grandparents were Lithuanian Jews.”
And that he wrote this wonderful song, too?
“With God on Our Side”
https://genius.com/2462755
The name and that song, well, ‘everyone’ knows that, Klaus – but I certainly hadn’t heard about his grandparents’ origins.
It`s not surprising that he`s one of the most covered songwriters of all time, too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRCFCMNFk3g
There is a lovely live version of the song here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYU0mFtKvXw
Satyadeva
Oh, I am a late comer.
You wrote yersterday, Klaus:
“Now why would I have such a reactive thought?”
I could offer:
“Because you didn’t delete it before it even was printed in an open available Chat to be seen by others (NOT IT-trolls, btw!) – who would like to relate to and understand what you have to share re an issue.
No mistake!
Madhu
And a PS for Klaus:
I was reminded of the meetings we had here with Byron Katie Herself, when she was still able to attend such in Person.
a work it was and still is to find out where most of – it – if not pretty much all of our thoughts – come from and discover some of the sources of our up-growing, which have not been ‘our-own’.
An endless work in progress, it seems, and quite difficult in the virtual realms….
Yes, Madhu, I follow what you are saying.
In the virtual realm we can just express in writing our feelings, emotions, views, opinions and information we have gathered and questions we might have.
Or maybe it is the other way round that we start with the questions, then information then opinions, views, emotions, feelings….
The presence of more experienced persons closer to “their inner source” is of great help. Friends on the path.
There may still be (a lot of) friction. Which Satchit may (rightly so) say “is beneficial for the search” – fire up.
One keeps on keeping on. Don’t we?
When we were a bit confrontational on one of the threads here dear Arpana once hinted at this song
‘Cruel to be kind (in the right measure)’ – Nick Lowe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vo4lNb0w48
(Lyrics are in the comments…).
“So the real question must be:
Is Existence capable of making a mistake?
Now it depends on the goal.”
Ok, Satchit, so did Existence, through Osho, ever make a mistake? If so, please provide the relevant details rather than waffling about a philosophical irrelevance before signing off for the day without facing the point.
I reckon you’ve too much of a tendency towards a ‘spiritual romanticism’ that wants to believe in an impossible ‘perfection’, imagining any vestige of simple ‘personhood’ to disappear at some point after enlightenment.
In your parents’ generation such a tendency helped give rise to belief in the delusions of ‘The Fuehrer’ and the doctrine of the psycho-spiritual purity of the ‘Master Race’ etc. With easy answers to complex questions of identity and purpose. A collective neurosis that morphed into psychosis.
Perhaps you’ve somehow unconsciously picked up on traces of that which informs your view of Osho.
(And please remember, I said “perhaps”, so don’t send the SS after me! Lol).
Now he comes with “The Fuehrer”, funny.
“Spiritual romanticism” lol
You need not teach me what’s wrong with me.
Things are much more simple: I refuse to think your thoughts and you have a problem with it.
On the contrary, Satchit, I’m enjoying looking at potential causes of your apparent neurosis. I’m simply having a bit of fun, it’s only a “play”, after all, no need to be so deadly serious!
Main point though remains the question you haven’t yet answered.
Seems I have to teach you the ABC of play.
Seriousness is needed for play.
At least as a Gunners supporter you should know.
Ok, then, Herr Playmeister, be serious and just answer the question, please.
It is a known fact that you have a stubborn character.
The play functions like this: you ask because you think you know the answer already, is it not?
So there is no point in answering your question for me.
I better enjoy my “spiritual romanticism.”
You’re no stranger to stubbornness yourself, Satchit, as this post clearly illustrates. So I’m assuming you do realise Osho made a few mistakes but you won’t say so as you think that would undermine your argument, not to mention your ‘wise spiritual man’ image at this site.
SD, before you can judge something as ‘a mistake’ you have to know a few things. These things neither you nor I know.
Why did they leave Pune?
Was it really because of tax problems? Or was it because the place became too crowded?
How many options did they have to go somewhere else? Was it only Oregon or were there also other places? Australia?
Was it a case of only this or nothing else?
Even if there were other options than Oregon I would not call Osho naive to go there. In my opinion he did it intentionally and the strategy was friction.
Btw, these days it is very modern looking back and calling behaviour “a mistake’:
“Oh, we have been too friendly to the Russians.
Look at them now, it was really a mistake!”
“Even if there were other options than Oregon I would not call Osho naive to go there. In my opinion he did it intentionally and the strategy was friction.”
Was that strategy effective, or was it responsible for consistently alienating the very people whose support the commune needed?
Was Sheela a wise choice to be his chief public representative?
Did Osho have any clue how to cope with America?
If you ask me, I would say the strategy of friction was effective.
If they would want support, it would be an easy thing to act differently.
The Master would give orders and Sheela and others would follow.
To blame it all on Sheela is in my opinion a bit naive.
I don’t think that Osho wanted to cope with America.
A Master is a fire.
Did Jesus want to cope with the Jews?
“The strategy of friction was effective”, was it, Satchit? Are you saying the American ‘campaign’ was a success?
You mean the way the Ranch collapsed amidst the crimes and arrogant attitudes of Sheela & co. that poisoned an already tricky public relations situation? And closed the doors of many countries (and the hearts and minds of many people) to Osho? And which led to Osho’s poisoning, considerably shortening his life?
Osho on the same track as Jesus? Was he really that much of a “masochist” (which is how he described Jesus)?
And all the above the ‘Will of Existence’ as Osho and Existence were one and the same? Leaving no space for ordinary human errors, mistakes, even major misjudgments?
Really?
What comes up for me when reading Satchit’s comments is a question…could someone really be that stupid? I have to say the answer is ‘yes’.
@ Lokesh
I know what you mean, but like to stay positive and not get downhearted about existence.
I still believe that some conversations with parrots can be worthwhile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6klZx7IhwsI
@frank who wrote “some of our conversations with parrots may be worthwhile.”
Funny man! Reminds me of the saying that a million monkeys with typewriters writing for eternity will eventually produce the Complete Works of Shakespeare.
Parrots! I say, pass the bird seed. Squawk!
Also a religionless religion needs a good story to be remembered, SD.
The story of Sannyas is love & crime in Oregon.
The story of Jesus is still known after 2000 years.
Right now we have passion games in Oberammergau/Bavaria:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=353CXJdBWkM
Exclusive pic:
Satchit`s darshan and initiation with Swami Bhorat at Bungabungalore ashram.
(Transcript):
“Talk the talk, walk the walk and squawk the squawk and remember, the ego is like guano: it must be dropped at every opportunity.”
@ SD
Certainly Osho was capable of mistakes.
I remember the story of his car accident.
Accidents happen only if you make mistakes.
Looking back and calling something a mistake is always a bit non-accepting of the past, is it not?
Can you suggest another way of learning from experience, Satchit?!
Yes, SD, in some cases you can learn from experience.
For example, if you get a sunburn, next time you put a hat on your head.
In other cases you get only one shot.
For example, Oregon
And certainly one can speculate: Would Australia have been a better place? Or would another woman have been a better choice than Sheela?
“But this is all mind”, speaks my parrot.
“Croak.”
Put it this way, Satchit: Elsewhere it would have had to have gone even more monumentally wrong than the demise of the Ranch to make the choices of the USA and ‘redneck’ territory in Oregon, and of Sheela, appear reasonable.
And if there had been another chance to set up home away from Pune do you seriously think that these and other key elements of the Ranch experience would not have been taken into account, as in “My God, never again!”?
As a wise old woman once pointed out to me, many years ago, “This world is a school, it’s for experiencing and learning.”
In fact, learning from experience, positive, negative or all intermediate shades, is where the mind plays a hugely important role (in case you and/or your parrot hadn’t noticed!).
Satyadeva
I like your expression
…”would have had to have gone even more monumentally wrong than….”
Imagine, some beautiful atoll in the Indian Ocean or elsewhere was chosen…one would have had to bribe the officials for any kind of permit…in the near future they would extort more of the commune based on this first step…then a tsunami…the atoll cracks…and so forth.
“Mistakes come in all shapes and all sizes….”
Osho quote for the mere mortals.
Maybe twop possible lessons were/are:
“make best use of your time” and
“speak up when your gut feeling is challenged”.
But then again, this might also not make a (big) difference….
The possible problems you mention, Klaus, would have been disqualified – IF adequate research were done before any decision on location were made.
I mean, were Osho’s ‘top people’ totally deficient in practical, worldly-wise common sense? If they still were after Oregon they really would have been utter fools.
Satyadeva
17 May, 2022 at 2:24 pm
“The possible problems you mention, Klaus, would have been disqualified – IF adequate research were done before any decision….”
Hm, I think there must be the requirement that the people in charge of fact finding – research – decision making do not have vested interests /a hidden agenda – besides “love of the Master” and “making a project of love reality”.
This actually leads me to think/believe that in the course of the decision making for “Oregon” there have been vested interests…
Was there any corporate control of the financial flows?
Interestingly, as per my knowledge there seem to have been no criminal complaints (by the owners; which owners? Investors?) with regard of “dollar amounts possibly missing”.
How could the requirement of “non-vested interest” be checked, if the Master chooses the persons in charge?
The cat bites its tail….
@satyadeva
To me it’s pretty clear Osho could and did make mistakes. AIDS, for example, didn’t turn into quite the epidemic he envisaged.
But he was right far more often than he was wrong, when not predicting the future that is.
Yeah, Osho’s crystal ball was a dud.
My extensive studies in Norse mythology at the University of Abba may help cast some light on this difficult matter.
Not a lot of people know that the word ‘mistake’ is etymologically derived from the old Norse word `mistaka` which is very close to `pistaka` – meaning to take the piss or pisstake. The pisstakers in the ancient sagas were those Norsemen who drunk reindeer piss that was loaded with psychedelic chemicals from the Fly Agaric mushroom. They communicated with the spirits whilst on their trips and so discovered that it was the mischievous gods and spirits who were responsible for the mistakes of humans, which the gods set up as practical jokes so as to enjoy their creation more by having more entertaining stories to watch over.
At first, the gods only wanted to have those that they didn`t like making mistakes, but they soon discovered that the universe didn`t work like that, so in order for pisstaking and its benefits to be enjoyed by humanity, everyone had to make mistakes and have the piss taken out of them, even the good guys.
Frank
That seems to come very close to the functionings of….
The neutral ones also got caught up: they could not stay on the sidelines. Haha!
You can always count on Madhu for a weather report.
Cloudy here today, Lokesh, and cool.
What’s happening at your climate place on Ibiza Island?
I mean – besides sending some warning re a “DUD” – along the virtual realms?
Is your swimming team already happening? Is the water in the ocean warm enough?
Dear Madhu, thanks for the weather update.
Sea swimming begins next week. I have a few days more of work around the house to do. It is roasting and after a casual morning’s work it is now siesta time. First a dip in the pool. Yipee!
Thanks, Lokesh,
We here had some thunder and lightning around late lunchtime and quite some rain.
Now – a few hours later – the sky shows up as if nothing ever happened….
Too bad that having a good swim and diving deep is out of the question due to my health situation.
What a nice pic you sent!
Madhu
What is your health situation, Madhu?
Let’s put it like this, Satyadeva (and thank you for asking):
Never really recovered in the body from an accident in the streets here; since (January 2013) metal screws and the long metal nail still in one of my legs; then years later thrombotic happenings, then embolie of the lungs, and on top of that more recently, corona happening and its after-effects.
Busy all these years is me, I can say walking step by step – or imagining walking – on the
“Acceptance Boulevard” in a social field which is less than friendly or supportive.
AND YET I WALK. Sometimes like today.
The latter though is a good preparation:
“Bardo of Life, Bardo of Death”, finally, as some of the Tibetans say.
Just Here-now I m listening to the rain in the evening – and besides anwering your question put out in our small Sannyas-Chat-community – I m listening to classical music.
Which I enjoy… and even more so – the gentle sound of the rain.
Madhu
Touching post, Madhu.
My wife was in a terrible car accident six years ago. Still has a metal rod in her leg and screws, along wirh six screws and hinges in the neck. She hates cold weather when the metal gets cold.
At times life can be a wicked joke, but if we can we must keep right on till the end of the road, meanwhile keeping up our urge to keep on keeping on.
I’ve noticed that everyone over 70 has their share of health problems. You are lucky if you can still walk vigorously and work in the garden. Am considering not participating in this process of getting old, seems more trouble than it’s worth!
These ailments very often show up well before 70, NP. Try asking anyone over 60, or even a few years younger.
What exactly do you mean by “not participating”, by the way?
NP says, “Am considering not participating in this process of getting old, seems more trouble than it’s worth!”
With an attitude like that it is hardly surprising that you are considering not participating in this process of getting old. Even though you have little choice in the matter.
On the upside ageing does have its perks. All that spiritual ideology about ‘no mind’ seems to happen quite naturally. As does realizing it is all within yourself etc., if so inclined.
At 70 I have no desire for the days of my youth. It was fun but really it is a simple case of been there, done that. The story of your life unfolds and the last chapters are still interesting and worth living.
…..
@Lokesh
Yes, it’s true, it is unavoidable, I was only making a little joke, hoho. I have not discovered the elixir of eternal youth.
Some people in my experience do a lot to stay fit in their later years, walking 20 km a day for instance.
But is it not better to just let life unfold, rather than trying all these things to prolong it?
But besides possibly prolonging one’s life any health-giving practices enhance the quality of the later years. That’s my experience, as without making certain efforts I dread to think where I might be at now.
It is not so much a case of prolonging life, but rather a case of quality over quantity.
The body is like a car. You need to be a good driver and use the vehicle. Cars seize up through lack of use. If you don’t use it then the scrapyard is the next destination.
Of people I know of the ones who keep fit seem to enjoy life more, with less trips to the doctor.
One old lady I know swims all year round. She is 86 and as fit as a fiddle.
Lifestyle is the key. Genetics plays only about twenty per cent of how healthy you will keep. Keep on truckin’.
Body and mind, too.
Use it or Lose it
(by A. Buddha)
Meditators try to refuse it,
Spiritual types tend to accuse it,
Intellectuals they overuse it,
Common people try to amuse it,
Charlatans try to confuse it,
Enlightened ones try to defuse it.
But whichever way you views it,
As long as you can still choose it:
It`s gotta be use it or lose it!
@simond who wrote: “In other words the question [of meaning] becomes yet another one: Who am I? And so, even more questions follow on: Why do I act in this or that way? What disturbs or hurts me? What other forms of self-identity have I taken on? How authentic am I?”
Good questions. ‘Who Am I? deserves a special mention, as according to Ramana it is a question that is meant to dissolve the questioner, and is a pointer into a more intense field of self enquiry. But in effect all these questions are to do with self-enquiry, getting to know oneself a bit better. But as Gurdjieff says, it’s not just seeing but remembering, and the constant process of self-remembering is quite difficult.
Self-identity I feel is largely useless. You can identify as a Buddhist, say, but as you do this you are writing your name under a series of doctrines which you may not all know. For a tradition with a large body of teachings this is difficult; can you be honest with yourself that you actually know what you are signing up for? Is it not better to just say “I am what I am” without saying “I am this” or “I am that”?
The last thing I would single out in the field of self-enquiry is sincerity. Without sincerity it is hard to make significant headway in a spiritual field, because one has to be honest in order to see clearly and sincere in order to have effect with one’s decisions.
@Nityaprem
You seem to like doing research about the spiritual search and connected things…I have a hint to another homepage:
“From Meher Baba to Osho with love”
https://o-meditation.com/category/enlightenment/
One can spend quite some enjoyable time there….
Check with Cheers!
…that is if you have not found it already! Haha.
@Klaus
That is much appreciated, thank you for the thought, Namasté???? I vaguely remember seeing the site one time in passing when I was looking for an Osho quote but I had no idea it was so extensive! There is a lot of material there on many masters.
But I try not to hop too much from one teacher to the next, at the moment I am reading Ramana, but I will add Meher Baba to the to-be-looked at pile. I always felt attracted to him, but there is such a thing as having too many teachers. I think I will come back to the site.
Whenever I read a book from, for example, Ramana, it’s like I am looking for something, some understanding that will make it clear to me what enlightenment is and how to get there…It seems quite a few people think they have something to say there, but very few really know what they are talking about.
Hi NP,
There is a Ramana chapter, too….
Yeah, I saw. Ramana didn’t leave as much behind as Osho, he was before the time that discourses were routinely recorded. The book I am reading, ‘Be As You Are’, was put together from scraps of paper on which disciples wrote down what was said to various people.
It’s funny. Yesterday I was reading in the Ramana book and I come across a passage where I see him say, you are already enlightened, there are only the vasanas obstructing you realising it. Then I was listening to Osho late in the evening, and he said pretty much the same thing (in ‘Om Mani Padme Hum’, discourse no.17).
Yeah, kilesas – vasanas – the veils of ignorence over eyes, ears and heart…
Inner workings.
So can we get down to being specific re exactly what these “veils of ignorance” consist of? Why don’t we see, hear or feel ‘straight’? What’s inside us that prevents total clarity?
In a nutshell, that describes the job of a master. Didn’t Osho do his utmost to help us address these blocks?
Hi Satyadeva,
All the ‘things’ we have stored in our systems – the bodymind computer – emotions unexpressed, situations we could not stand pushed into the unconscious, attitudes, views, opinions that rather obstruct clear seeing…
I cannot put it in a nutshell, as there are so many approaches to healing, too.
There is a lovely article on oshonews describing a process of the healer – healing – perception of body and mind:
https://www.oshonews.com/2018/04/15/my-journey-through-touch-anugyan/
Passages we have to pass through. Be it in meditation – touch – therapy. The unveiling – transformation – dissolution – taking place.
My guess with regard to the Master is that he can show us a few – if not all – things.
And then we carry on on our own. Wherever we are in the process.
I take Osho as the modern modern-style Master: using traditions and methods. But in essence being – he himself fully – free of them at the same time.
The dealings of this world is one side of the journey – mundane.
The inner world is a different one – going beyond the mundane.
I would add this to my last comment:
A quick search found this one on the journey starting and then passaging through the ’70000 veils’ from the Sufi view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CeQfyhmwqw
I don’t know the author, but it seems to be catching the essentials.
Please, Klaus, are you in a rating committee?
Modern style?
For me – the inner and the so-called outer world have been and are inter-woven and inter-dependent from the very first breath we take in the body – and maybe even before and after.
Madhu
@Klaus
It’s funny you should talk about the things we “push into the subconscious”, I have been thinking about this as well. I was wondering if these things end up being like karmic imprints.
And thanks for Anugyan’s article, I enjoyed it!
@Nityaprem
Everything that is stored in the system is a (karmic) imprint-kilesa-vasana-veil-blockage – as we name it.
In developing more and more awareness/consciousness we see our composites in detail.
Osho’s book, ‘Hammer on the Rock’ comes to mind.
(German title: ‘Stoppt den Fluss des Unbewussten’ – ‘Stop the flow of the Unconscious Mind’).
@Klaus
Is it really possible or desirable to stop the flow of the unconscious mind?
That is putting the `conscious` mind in a very preferential position.
What or who is this `conscious` mind that is so divorced from the unconscious mind that it would have the power to stop it?
Reminds me of King Canute.
@Frank
Uuuhhhh, I would be very wary of trying to stop something that can be so much bigger than a small person…
But then again, that was how the title ‘Hammer on the Rock’ has been translated into the German version of the book.
@Klaus
It`s an odd translation.
I imagine ‘Hammer on the Rock’ as being a riff on Freddie Neitzsche`s ‘Philosophising with a Hammer’ ie breaking up preconceptions/fixed ideas etc.
Maybe the German translators didn`t want to give the `Osho is a Freddie, thereby Hitler fan` media thing any juice at the time.
Frank
Applying ‘Thor’s Hammer’ to people’s heads…that’s what the German leaders did….
Klaus.
Ouch!
Also available on Amazon: ‘Hammer in my Rocks’, a banging autobiography by Swami Mahabanananda, legendary tantric disciple of Swami Bhorat. He is currently doing a 10-year retreat on VP Wing.
Frank
Checked amazon and found this:
https://www.amazon.de/Sprengt-Fels-Unbewu%C3%9Ftheit-Hammer-Rock/dp/359623378X
So the German title is
‘Sprengt (Blow up) den Fluss der Unbewusstheit (the flow of the unconscious)’
Swami Bananananananananda is funny, too :::)))
‘Hammer on the Rock’ is a darshan diary.
People did speak in front of ‘Bhagwan’ in those times about their problems and resistance.
And the “Hammer” was the awareness of the Master.
Satchit
True….
Yes, I second that, Satyadeva – and thank you for coming in here just in time today, raising a moderate voice.
Last night I was looking again in some of the ‘Darshan Diaries’ (November 1976) which like most of them are recorded – and printed by chance! (Title: ‘The Shadow of the Whip’).
The way though that even before Osho’s departure to America such exchanges had simply not been possible anymore as the Sangha had been exploding one can say – AND take that for bashing all those who had been coming “late” is a thorough ‘cul de sac’ (‘sackasse’, we say here) and brings more of this hostility and judgmental heat and kind of war-like scenarios which, as I understand you say: brings nothing of value. Neither individually nor collectively….
Thanks again for coming up, Satyadeva.
Madhu
Madhu
Traditional-style masters, imo their limitations.
Bhagwan to me is rather limitless.
So, modern is to me 12 stars out of 10.
I have my limitations, too. Therefore words can be mingled.
@satyadeva who wrote “what exactly are these “veils of ignorance?””
In the book of Ramana’s conversations which I am reading he says the first barrier is identification with the body, that before one can get results with self-enquiry that needs to be tackled.
@NP
“clear to me what enlightenment is”
E. is dying to your identity, where the door to the madhouse is wide open.
Sounds like Satchit has been giving E to his parrot again:
“Squawk! ‘Eezer Goode ‘Eezer Goode He’s Ebeneezer Goode. Squawk!”
Ever heard that funniness can also become a habit, Frankie-parrot?
Btw, it was not Nietzsche style. It was the Master himself who said in this diary to a group leader:
“I have to be hard to you. I will be with you like a hammer on the rock. Hm? Good.”
@Scratchit
Thanks for the tip.
I will check into rehab if things get too comical.
Meanwhile, to complete Madhu`s weather forecasts, here is ‘The Laughter Forecast’ by Sue Cowley
Today will be humorous
With some giggly patches,
Scattered outbreaks of chuckling in the south
And smiles spreading from the east later,
Widespread chortling
Increasing to gale-force guffaws towards evening.
The outlook for tomorrow
Is hysterical.
And don`t worry, parrots are very spiritual.
In South India I have seen parrot readers. Often in public, like at a bus stand. The customer asks a question, the sadhu spreads out the cards which have pictures of different gods on them. Then the sadhu`s pet parrot is let out of its cage and it goes along the cards and picks one out with its beak. This is the relevant card that depicts the god that the customer needs help from or to pray to.
Just checked and of course it`s on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skgZE4Q8K-A
If I had not seen the video I would not have believed it.
These Indians are over-spiritual, indeed.
But it leaves much space in the head.
Hahaha:
Sue Cowley – “Getting the buggers to behave”
“…manage behaviour through developing better relationships…better thinking skills….”
That’s the way to do it!
I didn`t know she was a parenting adviser, I just came across the poem.
Have you followed her?
I have seen something similar in the streets in Delhi (not on Youtube) where a sadhu got people to ask simple questions to a bull (that I suppose was a representation of Nandi/Shiva).
The bull would answer by either nodding or shaking its head, It was a good circus trick but folks took it seriously and maybe it sorted their lives out. Got them to make a decision one way or the other, I guess.
@satchit
Every teacher seems to have his own favourite phrasing. I like Ramana’s self-realisation. Or Adyashanti’s shift in perspective.
But if the door to the madhouse is wide open, do you choose to walk in, or out? The mad people are quite interesting after all…
@ NP
It is not a question of phrasing, but of being or better to say not-being.
A lot of preparation is needed, it can be dangerous.
Why are you interested in that?
Don’t you lead a good life?
I choose to be unenlightened.
“I choose to be unenlightened.”
Careful, Satchit, you are sliding into the funniness habit!
That’s true, Frankie, I should not make so many jokes. This is against my reputation.
@satchit who wrote “why are you interested in that?”
Who wouldn’t be interested in deeply knowing their own nature and the truth about their reality?
Nityaprem, you responded:
“Who wouldn’t be interested in deeply knowing their own nature and the truth about their reality?”
Well, I’d say – when opening the site of the Chat just now and reading what came up just very recently bragging about a story, a kind of sensational ‘METOO’ report about the case of a woman who doesn’t post here (!) but has done so apparently quite Murdoch press-print business-style.
And then – see our Scottish regular contributor – as if yawning who must have had a nap or two for some hours:
“Aah old stuff, old stuff, know it all but won’t go into it just now etc…I know the involved people but won t go into details etc. etc.”
Sure enough, other male buddhies followed, apparently relieved to have found another unknown and a female prey to escape their very own stuff re such matters (reality).
Your question though is a good one, Nityaprem (as was – in my eyes – your honest intro/topic).
And it may be one not fit to be responded to on a website and in a Chat-room like this?
Madhu
P.S:
That which is called “victim blaming” has taken obnoxious, very perverted forms in Digital Times!
And has in my insight nothing to do with your question(s) you put out, Nityaprem.
Madhu, I suggest you stick to writing weather reports. In relation to the article Frank posted, you have not a clue what you are talking about.
Thanks, Madhu. It’s difficult not to get hung up on things. Erin deserves to be heard, and what Osho did was not right…he put people in responsible positions in the ashram, and then makes requests that are not kosher, at night in secret.
And this affects the rest of us, because were we not like Erin in that master-disciple relationship?
You’re right that this has kind of diverged from my original topic and question, which was about finding the final guru, but at the same time it is kind of relevant because it changes your relationship with the guru.
@satchit said/ wrote:
16 May, 2022 at 3:32 pm (I to IV)
I
“Also a religionless religion needs a good story to be remembered, SD.”
A religionsless religion does not need a good story to be remembered, Satchit.
At the most – and only if we can t take that truth – I would agree with Nityaprem who mentioned and promoted a “Shakespearean update” about the daily variations happening in inter-(in-)human affairs. Something to laugh-cry and then get silent and then let it sink in and maybe broaden our consciousness (for the time being…but the latter only by Grace…).
II
“The story of Sannyas is love & crime in Oregon.”
You don t know what love is, I’d say to you, Satchit – and you sum that up by trolling a Chat using a name you probably found as an internet-trolling entity, Indian-style, and you joined a Chat with a kind of military stance and the very cunning and secluded verbal abuse covered up by only seemingly “squeaky-clean” two or three-liners. Over years by now!
Staying anonymous like a religious secret services agent and a kind of ‘watchman’ gathering data about some of the pain or some of the confusion of others here.
That’s OFF the WALL, as one says. And I say that too.
III
“The story of Jesus is still known after 2000 years.”
How you, Satchit, come to a stance here, proclaiming that YOU, Satchit, know sanything valuable or essential of the Life of a Being called Jesus (more than 2000 years ago) murdered in the most cruel way conceivable – is a HOAX of a contemporary watchman of Fundamentalist viewpoint, in my eyes (or even worse).
IV
“Right now we have passion games in Oberammergau/Bavaria”
Yes, true, Bavarian Satchit – the Theatre play in Oberammergau IS happening and yesterday was the Premiere.
And you, Satchit, don t do any favours to the many people of this small Bavarian town or to the Director, Stückl, who has worked on this play for a long time, it’s his second or even third time working on this (ever-changing).
Bragging here and pumping up your BIG EGO in this very UK/SN-Chat about it is neither a favour for the people involved nor a favour for Mr. Stückl, the Director, whom I know, having listened to some of the interviews given by him and heard an emotionally intelligent man speak re the content of the Play and some of the historical facts and the Gestalt of a man we call Jesus, has much more such emotional Intelligence than you’ve ever shown here in the UK/SN Chat.
The Play is happening due to a vow: every ten years after the Plague in the 17th century it’s been happening and as far as I know, also in wartime.
Unlike you, Satchit, this Director doesn’t at all brag about himself or promote the Play like a hidden anonymous watchman of religious Fundamentalism.
All these people playing a story over and again from one decade to another, changing the content a bit, they deserve respect – even if one does not feel attracted to going there for that great theatre happening or has found other insights in one s lifetime.
Madhu
P.S. for Satchit and maybe others here:
TIME IS UP to end all kinds of war happening with the fuel of religious ideologies (hidden or open) up to the present moment re the war amongst brothers and sisters in Ukraine and Russia where the two Christian Patriarchs were/are preaching war in the churches and so-called ‘little people’ lidht candles for those who are going to be butchered in these wars beforehand…ending in tears.
TIME IS UP for criminals who are out of their minds and hearts in these wars: Wars where women are extremely violated and raped by soldiers in the course of these wars.
Or where their offspring – the children – are losing their very lives in the course of this kind of utter insanity. (Even then when they kind of survive in the body)…we have a generation s long after-effects as we truly came to know in the twenty-first century. It’s not that we don’t know!
TIME IS UP to not any more indulge following a kind of TV-Lifestream of War listening to spin-doctors of War – religious or otherwise – the latter like Money-and-Power-rooted spin-doctors’ happenings on any of the sides of war – the ancient ones as well as the very contemporary ones!
Madhu,
I see in spite of your health problems, your power of aggression is still functioning. Congrats!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRot9IjNSso
The thing is, the story of what went wrong at the Ranch and Osho’s poisoning doesn’t really contribute anything to his message. It is very unlike Jesus’s almost dying and miraculously reappearing a few days later in that way, because that was the foundation of the Christian miracle story and the big guilt trip of Jesus dying for your sins.
While I do agree that every large movement needs a great story, I doubt whether the Ranch and what followed will be that for Osho. It was the great experiment that went wrong.
@NP
“It was the great experiment that went wrong.”
Yes, but it was no problem for the witness.
And it was a beautiful and dramatic failure.
The whole world got to know it.
Maybe some Wagner music would fit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcZp7u_Krp8
“No problem for the witness…The whole world got to know it.”
Sure – apart from for the public, Osho becoming largely viewed as a charlatan, his chief disciple as an obnoxious, loud-mouthed, lying criminal, the rest of her top group as partners in crime, and the thousands of followers idealistic but utterly gullible fools.
Oh, and, er, the similarly minor consequence of Osho’s life being considerably shortened by poisoning (no problem at all for the witness).
A great outcome, just what Osho/Existence required and the rest of humanity needed!
@Satchit
For sure, the Wagner piece from ‘Apocalypse Now’ is appropriate!
Colonel Sheela Kurtz, model officer gone bad deep in the twisted jungles of the mind, presiding over her brutal, despotic kingdom in the heart of darkness.
“The horror, the horror….”
Mind you, Kurtz never made it onto the chat-show circuit like Sheela has, which is a plot twist that neither Joseph Conrad nor Coppolla envisaged.
The “no problem for the witness” spiel is such disembodied nonsense.
I bet in reality, old Scratchy was going apeshit and doing his nut and had to quickly break out another bottle of Alzheimer Pils when Bayern got knocked out of the Cup by that mickey mouse Spanish team!
No problem for the witness, though, as he slumped back into his heavily-stained sofa in despair, consoling himself that at least they had won the one-team league again!
Lol!
No, it is not nonsense, Frankie.
Right now I watch myself having fun with your description.
P.S:
Say hello to your parrot!
@Satchit
Let`s try to get to the bottom of this.
So, you are slumped on the sofa with a half-empty bottle of Asperger Pils watching an old VHS of Gerd Muller`s greatest goals.
You become aware of the witness watching you watching Gerd Muller`s greatest goals on the TV.
But who knows this? You realise that it must be another witness that is watching the first witness that is watching you watching Gerd Muller`s greatest goals on the TV. Then you wonder how would you know that unless you were another witness who is watching the witness that is watching the first witness that is watching you watching Gerd Muller`s greatest goals on the TV?
Your mind goes blank and you have a satori as Gerd lashes yet another one into the back of the net from an unlikely angle, and as you take another swig of beer and are `mulling` this over in your pils-induced altered state of consciousness, the thought arises:
“If Gerd makes a mistake and misses an open goal, how can you say that there has been a mistake, as mistakes are only possible when there is a goal?”
As you struggle with this zen koan, your consciousness spins and spirals into a widening void…
Not long after this, you have an awakening.
You wake up to find your beer spilled all down the front of your trousers, coupled with a warm feeling in the area, the empty bottle on the floor, your TV screen flickering and the realisation dawns on you: there are no more goals.
@ Frank
Fact is, you did hypnotize my parrot
with your crazy Müller talk.
@Satchit.
Sounds like you and your parrot have been getting mullered!
Aaah, sigh… yes, @Frank, and up to just now filling up some end of the verbal virtual uproar on a “Blue Monday”.
Reminding me that a so-called peace is more often a replacement for war…just using “other weapons”.
A few moments of so-called relief – not more…!
Getting stuck for decades with a “Scapegoating-Approach” with whatsoever elitist measures borrowed by whomever doesn’t provide us with any of the lights for a darkened heart inside, so urgently needed.
And Life is happening somewhere else, isn t it?
Masters and Mystics – “worth their Salt” (as Lokesh put it) – shared about that Issue (= Scapegoats) – you can deny if you want.
Also, Osho did share lots of reminders about that Issue of Scapegoating – but sure, only if you are open to hear it and take it to heart.
The latter to differentiate from a masochistic, immature conditioning may in some lives be an ongoing inner-work, and I know that by my very own experience.
It’s you, Frank, instead of Lokesh, who’s getting today’s Bavarian Weather Monday-Morning Broadcast:
Sky in aquamarine BLUE, just a few white clouds to be seen and the small little rosebush I can see when I open the window did proudly open up lots of white blossoms.
Have a nice Day,
Madhu
@Madhu
Thanks for the weather report.
Don`t think it`s Monday tho`.
Take care.
Uuups, Frank – yes – it’s Wednesday, that’s true.
But my weather forecast has been no fake and in correct time-schedule.
And, know what?
Sky was luminous all day long and even now luminous after sunset.
An after-shine or something like that….
Madhu
Doing “the chat-show circuit…” – like for re-instatement.
People should avoid it.
If and when pure witnessing is there…if only for moments…even for a gullible follower…it’s a dream fulfilled.
That’s the legacy. No story.
First, SD, nobody knows if his poisoning was true.
It is a case of believe it or not.
Second, Osho never pretended to be a saviour. This was Jesus’s style.
So the question is:
What is his basic message?
For me it is still witnessing. For you?
Btw, His followers were fools from the very beginning. Nobody who has a clear mind will follow a Sexguru.
Satchit, yes, that Osho was poisoned while in custody in America hasn’t been definitively proven; however, there’s plenty of evidence to indicate that’s what happened, with which I suggest you acquaint yourself – unless, of course, you prefer to remain one of the legions of blind “fools” as per your description of “His followers”.
You miss the point by wilfully misinterpreting me as viewing Osho as a “Saviour” (a description of Jesus which, by the way, was almost certainly coined by the Church). Nevertheless, while he wasn’t naive enough to believe he could convince everyone to ‘follow’ him, realising that his appeal was limited to a particular sector of the world population, so that he didn’t bother wasting time on ‘converting the unconvertable’, the purpose of the Ranch was not only to further his people’s spiritual life but also to demonstrate to the world what could be achieved by the ‘New (Hu)Man’, through the remarkable way it was built, and, crucially, via the energy, authenticity, happiness and love – ie the best of humanity – of its residents.
Osho’s “basic message”? That depends where each individual is at. I recall a letter sent to me in London back in ’76 or ’77 by one of Laxmi’s office people, in response to my complaints to ‘Bhagwan’ about how hard I was finding life (low energy, fear, worry, everything a struggle, dead-end jobs, little money, poor living situation) where I was urged to “get disidentified and just relax”…Back in those dark days I didn’t understand the message, despite several years of sannyas meditation (which was then becoming virtually useless anyway).
Authentic witnessing is, I suggest, an advanced stage, which depends on how deep one has gone within, how clear one is, how genuinely still, and which is not necessarily to be confused with a basic functioning faculty of self-consciousness available to all of us. There’s plenty of room for self-delusion, pretending to oneself and others how much of a ‘watcher-on-the-hill’ any-time-meditator one has become. Which could be another way of distancing oneself from things inside that really need to be looked into and resolved/healed, including thinking one has ‘got it all sorted’.
Returning to the final part of your post, do you now still include yourself as being as foolish and confused as all other sannyasins are (or at least, were)? And do you really think everyone joined up due to sex?
Evidence for poisoning?
His health problems could have many other reasons.
And I guess it’s not an easy thing, becoming enlightened at 21, and then living many years with a broken identification with the body.
No, not everyone joined up due to sex. This was just another one of my dirty jokes.
How far have you investigated Osho’s condition after his 12 days’ imprisonment in the US, Satchit? Not a lot, it would seem
For a start, I suggest you read the transcript of this discourse:
https://www.oshonews.com/2020/10/28/it-was-a-fight-between-death-and-your-love/
Not everybody joined up for the sex but I think Osho did.
It`s part of the whole guru/disciple trip, usually on the quiet.
Of the 20th century, Krishnamurti, Muktananda, Maharishi, Yogi Bhajan, Sai Baba, Trungpa, Osho etc. etc.
It goes on. It`s actually easier and shorter to name the ones who didn`t conform to the trope.
SD, I trust my intuition.
And my intuition says: maybe yes, maybe no.
Why is it necessary for you to convince me?
What do you think is the point of this site, Satchit?
Why shouldn’t your statements and views be challenged?
Or are you some sort of ‘special case’?
Yes, we can challenge our views.
You believe his words.
Maybe I have too often heard:
“My words are fingers pointing to the moon, don’t bite into my fingers!”
You see, not only a special case, even a lost case.
You’re misusing that quote, Satchit. In his claim of having been poisoned he’s referring to specific details, claimed facts re circumstances he lived through, not to descriptions of meditative processes or states of being that can defy normal rational understanding.
And I suggested you read that talk “for a start”. Perhaps, if you have an open mind (which appears not to be the case) you might also consult one or two books that have been written on the subject.
Yes, SD, you can judge me as misusing a quote, this is your freedom.
I did read the talk “for a start”.
At the end of the day you live in your world and I live in mine and we can settle the case.
@satchit who wrote, “it was a beautiful and dramatic failure.”
And even then, except for ‘Wild Wild Country’ it might still have been forgotten. It has a certain air of wild conflict, something almost Shakespearean to it, I will give you that.
But it could have turned out better for Osho, I think. He was only 58 when he died, not exactly old.
Talking of great stories, here is a short musical interlude:
https://youtu.be/jWNEr4eHL18
Satchit declares, “In some cases you can learn from experience.”
Really quite remarkable that Satchit has come to such a deep insight.
@ Klaus
19 May, 2022 at 12:50 pm
“Everything that is stored in the system is a (karmic) imprint-kilesa-vasana-veil-blockage – as we name it.”
Who or what is the “we” you have been talking about today around lunchtime?
(Or – other way round – what is the role you, Klaus, are playing as a kind of speaker of a “we”?
Madhu
Madhu
Actually, I meant it kind of impersonal, like “or whatever one likes to name it.”
Maybe I typed a little bit too quickly on my mobile, sitting in the hot sun…and did not look at it too precisely before hitting ‘send’. ::))
Klaus
It happens to us all that we get a little imprecise. The Gelug Tibetan Buddhist monk who was teaching me probably wouldn’t approve of calling vasanas and kilesas the same either. According to Wikipedia, vasanas are “karmic imprints that may influence actions” while a kilesa is a “negative mental state or emotion”.
Oh, NP, good information!
I guess, this makes a difference: then I do not need to worry too much about kilesa states.
NP
I actually like being precise. It is good to know the details of what one is talking about.
Nowadays I’m just a householder…the Tibetan lamas & rinpoches are certainly more professional and profound in their studies.
I wish for everyone to experience in practice the depths of their studies. And I would enjoy the person’s success, too!
Sympathetic joy (mudita) is something…wonderful.
@Klaus
Wunderbahr…I like to actually know what people are talking about, so the definition of terms is useful. Luckily in Buddhism there are quite a few scholars who tend to be obsessed with what the rest of us pay only passing notice to.
@ Nityaprem, who says:
“Luckily in Buddhism there are quite a few scholars who tend to be obsessed with what the rest of us pay only passing notice to.”
“Luck” you say? Being in a grip of an ‘obsession’?
I’d like to put that into question.
Sure enough though – the virtual plane we are about to meet here in SN/UK gives lots of ‘Thors’ to swing a “hammer”. Doesn t it?
Does it help?
Madhu
Does it not take all kinds of islands to make thousand-island dressing? Or something like that….
This recent online article is addressed “To the Osho community” so I forward it to here for any who might be interested.
I wonder what the punters here make of it and how they might react to it.
https://www.erinrobbins.life/letter-to-osho-community
Yeah, I read the article. Had already read it somewhere else. What to say? Nothing is what it seems. I do not feel anything about such revelations. Too busy with today to bother thinking about what was going on decades ago in a scene I had already said goodbye to.
More important things to attend to like repotting a few plants. Very symbolic. Those hanging on to their old sannyasin crutches need repotting.
It’s a shame that the woman in question, some forty years later, after her life in the commune, feels abused.
The story itself is highly suspect.
I wasn’t there in the bedroom at that time and, assuming that this particular story was true, I feel it’s a shame that the woman apparently got nothing from receiving shaktipat in this manner from her guru, especially when there were thousands of other women who would have yearned to be in the same position with him.
Sex and transmission of shaktipat with an enlightened man/woman in this way, can be extremely powerful and beneficial for a disciple, in India there are whole traditions around it.
Guru Shanti is dreaming again.
Hmm, well, the letter doesn’t read in the slightest esoteric or shaktipat-like, or haven’t you read it? Secret invitation at midnight to give a blow job and perform a sex show with Vivek, no consent asked? Sounds like abuse and a crazy power trip to me.
Yes, I read it and a few others last year sometime courtesy of Mr Luke Mitchell (Lokesh).
It is true that Osho seems to have had a bit of a ‘wham, bham, thank you, mam’ attitude towards sex with women other than Vivek. That was part of his thing, I think. He once said, “Sex is like shaking hands”, or something to that effect.
Perhaps this didn’t work out so well for all of them…some women prefer more attention and time….
Ironic that the above is a description of “the sex guru”. I’m looking forward to hearing what women make of that, perhaps especially the last paragraph. I reckon you’re in for a right hammering….
Well, that was a different time. Back in the seventies.
Adi Da Samraj married fourteen women together on the same night on New Years Eve, 1976.
It went on in the 80s as well as the 70s, and not just in Pune One.
And your remark, “some women prefer more attention and time” doesn’t restrict itself to a specific period. Get your crash helmet ready, Shanti….
I’ve got my crash helmet on now, and should be back by two weeks….
How do you know shaktipat can be extremely powerful and beneficial for a disciple?
This sort of make-believe thinking is what makes sexual abuse such a common experience in the spiritual community. This is just another of your borrowed knowledge.
“I, as a master, know what’s best for you, and surrendering to my higher knowledge is good for you”, “oh and by the way, keep it quiet.”
My sense of this is that it shows how enlightenment is never “complete”. Osho may have been enlightened about the transcendental, but his understanding of sex and women left a lot to be desired. Indeed, his actions demonstrate how grubby that part of his mind was.
@simond you put:
“How do you know shaktipat can be extremely powerful and beneficial for a disciple?
This sort of make-believe thinking is what makes sexual abuse such a common experience in the spiritual community. This is just another of your borrowed knowledge.”
This is where you’ve put your foot in it, with your assumptions that my knowledge is “borrowed”. But it also means I have to talk about my personal life.
So, I have experienced that shatikpat can be transmitted powerfully sexually because actually it happened with my girlfriend. I triggered a kundalini awakening in her through sex, this was many years ago. That awakening went on to transform her life and greatly helped her own spiritual path.
I am not enlightened, but I know that this kind of sexual contact can be extremely powerful – and helpful. And if it can happen though me, then the old tantric tradition of a guru giving shaktipat in this way can also be valid.
You state “Osho may have been enlightened about the transcendental, but his understanding of sex and women left a lot to be desired. Indeed, his actions demonstrate how grubby that part of his mind was.”
Bear in mind though you are making judgments based purely on dubious second hand reports which is unwise.
I stand corrected on your experience – and it’s great that you reveal what is your own understanding, rather than theorise.
However, does that mean Osho or others did the same? You’ll know as well as I do how sexual predators use all sorts of ‘clever’ reasoning to justify their actions.
In Osho’s case it appears to me he is guilty as charged.
I would say it is only “real” if you can duplicate it and trigger it consciously.
I once tried to mind-control a pigeon, and it did exactly as I asked, for about 30 seconds, and then it flew away. I’ve never since been able to duplicate a special rapport with pigeons.
Well, that sounds…at the least promising.
It also could happen the other way around.
In the ZEN approach ‘it’ – satori, kundalini, awakening, slipping into nothingness/the void – could also happen while washing the dishes or harking the stone garden.
It all depends on how prepared a person is.
Buddhist mumbo-jumbo:
According to one’s paramis suitable conditions etc. etc. will arise and all doors are open….
MOD:
Klaus, could you clarify what “harking” and “paramis” mean, please?
Oh:
…and even without anyone else being around.
No guru, no method, no teacher.
Thats what Van Morrison claimed.
And is Van the man a good example of spirituality? Or just another emotionally-deluded egotist, albeit one who can write great songs?
Mod:
Sorry, I was typing from my mind…and not checking vocabulary:
harking = raking
paramis: buddhist term for virtues (or more commonly, good karma) to be cultivated/accumulated which will take the meditation yogi “beyond”.
Quote:
“The Paramis to be cultivated
In Buddhism, these virtues are cultivated as a way of purification, purifying karma and helping the aspirant to live an unobstructed life, while reaching the goal of enlightenment.
The word pāramī derives from parama, ‘supreme,’ and thus suggests the eminence of the qualities which must be fulfilled by a bodhisattva in the long course of his spiritual development. But the word preferred by Pāli writers, is sometimes explained as pāram + ita, ‘gone to the beyond,’ thereby indicating the transcendental direction of these qualities.”
1. Dāna pāramī : generosity, giving of oneself
2. Sīla pāramī : virtue, morality, discipline, proper conduct,
3. Nekkhamma pāramī : renunciation
4. Paññā pāramī : transcendental wisdom, insight
5. Viriya pāramī : energy, diligence, vigour, effort
6. Khanti pāramī : patience, tolerance, forbearance, acceptance, endurance
7. Sacca pāramī : truthfulness, honesty
8. Adhiṭṭhāna pāramī : determination, resolution
9. Mettā pāramī : loving-kindness
10. Upekkhā pāramī : equanimity, serenity
11. Dhyāna pāramitā : one-pointed concentration, contemplation
12. Prajñā pāramitā : wisdom, insight
13. Upāya pāramitā: skillful means
14. Praṇidhāna pāramitā: vow, resolution, aspiration, determination
15. Bala pāramitā: spiritual power
16. Jñāna pāramitā: knowledge
Unquote
from here:
https://buddhistbasics.com/the-ten-paramis/
That is also where past lives come in: everyone has already accumulated some of these.
Whether these are “complete” only meditation practice might show.
For myself I know that I am most certainly lacking
wisdom = prajna
and
energy = viriya
Once these things, including the enlightenment factors, are balanced, ‘it’ might happen anytime….
Van the Man is spiritually imo most likely not a good example, i.e. no realisation, just words plus feelings.
Addition:
Out of my experience on this path I can say that if these factors are not cultivated by one’s own effort even with the help of the teacher one will fall back to the level ‘work for oneself’.
With shaktipat one can certainly go far (all the way..?) but without maintaining one’s own meditation practice – dingdong: falling down again.
Beware:
There is no progress without one’s own discipline (see no. 2 – Sila – discipline) plus meditation practice (no. 11 – Dhyana).
The others – imo – are more or less connected….
Buddhist mumbo-jumbo.
There are certainly other ways and means.
10 Paramis = Theravada Buddhism / Burma, Thailand, Laos, Sri Lanka etc.
6 Paramitas = Mahayana Buddhism / Tibetan etc.
That’s why 16. points.
Sorry confusion.
Guru Shanti,
My shagging is pretty impressive too.
I guess it all started in a past life when I got a job as an artists` model in Khajuraho, 969AD.
Call me Rock Hardwar. That`s what Shakti Pat calls me and she should know. Man, you should see the juggernauts on her; to be fair you probably have as you sound like the sort of guy who watches the Khajuraho channel.
Btw, have you read the Upanishags by Sid the Sexist? It`s literally banging, man.
Patriarchal Indian culture is where it’s at. Lord Krishna with his 16,0000 bitches?
Absolute GOAT.
One rather odd thing is that she refers to her current “wife”. I wonder whether these sex sessions with Osho put her off men for the rest of her life, or whether she always had a bi-sexual tendency. And if the latter, whether Osho might have been attempting to ‘straighten her out’ (as it were). (And I’m not trying to ‘exonerate’ Osho here).
“straighten her out”? I doubt it. I remember her being with guys in the ashram.
It is a pity that Osho turned out to be another sexual predator guru preying on his female disciples. He showed so much promise in the early days…so much good vibes…said so many wonderful things and then turns out to be the same old, same old. Bummer! Life goes on.
Of course, there will still be idiots who write all this off as judging the ways of an ‘Enlightened One’. We’ll leave those questions to fools like Satchit to write about.
NP obviously has not read about all the allegations about young sannyasin girls in their early teens being sexually abused in the commune that surfaced about a year ago. This had nothing to do with Osho and everything to do with a small group of men in the commune taking advantage of kids. Kinda weird but these incidents actually happened, blackening the already bad rep of the sannyas scene. It’s history now and I know for certain some of the guys who were named had to deal with a lot of shit due to this.
The general question is:
Can an unenlightened being judge the behaviour of an enlightened one?
With regard to non-consensual acts and possible criminal acts like abuse we can certainly judge it.
Whether it means anything to the enlightened one is not a question asked in the worldly courts.
When Osho answered questions on whether or not he was celibate, at the Ranch, he was quite open about it and said that he had never been celibate.
“Love becomes just like any game: playing cards, playing tennis…I have loved many women, and I am the first enlightened person in the world who is being absolutely truthful to you. You could have never found out whether I am celibate or not. I thought, although I have not said I am celibate, you would consider me a celibate…
But one fact I have proved absolutely and forever – that making love does not destroy enlightenment.
On the contrary, it makes it richer, more beautiful – new flowers in it, new colours in it, new fragrances in it, new laughter, new smiles. The whole idea that the enlightened man cannot make love is absolutely wrong.”
(‘From Death to Deathlessness’)
He said he had had many lovers yet he also said that it was “all consensual, of course”. And he said that he was “truly the blessed one…no woman has ever refused me.” I could not find the exact quote but it is there somewhere…as part of so many words that can be searched through.
It is clear that as far as Osho was concerned, he was having fun and it was all consensual. He was completely open about it, talking to the world press in fact, and it seems unlikely that there would have been anything else going on behind the scenes.
And there were no complaints at the time.
“And I have loved many women – my enlightenment has not changed. I have created a historical event! In the future, no enlightened man should be expected to be celibate. I have risked much.
But in a way, after enlightenment something is transcended – it is not sex, but sexuality. After enlightenment I have not been able to look into the eyes of any woman with sexuality.
It is nothing on my part, I cannot take the credit for it. The whole experience of enlightenment has changed many things. Even making love to a woman is now totally different, absolutely different, has no connection with the love when I was unenlightened. It was not love, it was just a biological, chemical, hormonal attraction. It was just a kind of slavery; it was a need, and you were possessed by the need. That need has disappeared. Now making love to a woman is just pure fun – and I have never heard that after enlightenment fun is transcended.”
Well, I’d say Erin certainly can, yes. Wouldn’t you agree?
If you never actually met Osho, Satchit, and never received any personal feedback from him, then perhaps you’ve nurtured a rather over-idealistic, romanticised perception of him, which can be a sort of ‘easy way out’ for some people, who create a ‘convenient’ version of him that suits them, a ‘master in their own image’, as it were. Hence your unwillingness to discuss certain issues that might tend to upset this image of Osho and/or of yourself.
You have a strange picture of me, SD. But what to say, it’s your choice.
I did read the article again and strange, I did not find anything about rape.
I mean she was 25 years and felt good that she was getting this much attention from her beloved Master.
There was always the possibilty to say, “No, I don’t want.” But she did not. So it was certainly consensual and no crime at all.
But people are strange, years later they come up with “abuse”, not taking the responsibility for what they have done in the past.
Satchit, if you were paid for the utter stupidity you write, you might well be rich.
Osho abused the trust the woman placed in him. Plain and simple. The fact that you don’t get what that actually means in terms of Osho’s ridiculous and predatory behaviour is testimony to what a complete fool you are. In that aspect of your life, you are indeed total, totally dumb.
Yes, Loco, Osho was certainly the sugar-daddy for all the women.
It was not only a case of trust but also of saying “No”. But this your dumb mind cannot understand.
Yeah, right, Satchit. Just say “no”. You and Nancy Reagan would have got along like a white house on fire.
The simplicity of your response slots you in a 12 year-old’s mindset.
Seems you are the only one who is childish here, Lokesh.
Trusting Osho does not mean that you are no more responsible for your life.
@Lokesh
I think you are right, Osho did abuse Erin’s trust. He didn’t deny himself anything, it seems, even when that violated the bond between master and disciple.
@satchit
You could say she didn’t protest and so there was ‘consent’ but I think it was a special situation. Osho talked many times about the master-disciple relationship, and that she was involved in that way imposes a duty of care on him, not to abuse the trust and his position of power as guru.
@NP
It depends what the lesson was to learn for the disciple.
If the lesson was to trust herself and learn to say No, then she missed it in the situation.
And certainly it is maybe more difficult to say No to the Master than to anybody else.
I also doubt that she did not speak with anybody about this.
I know these blow-job stories already more than 20 years.
And the Master bears no responsibility for the situation, knowing that she’s “missing” the “lesson” – for many years?! Or was he only too pleased to take advantage and really couldn’t care less?
Maybe the times we’re in are so degenerate that we can not expect any ‘master’ to be without flaws, perhaps particularly re sex. Maybe a master is not just a reflection of the Truth of our Being but also of the condition of his people whose beliefs, values etc. are themselves products of the age. As Osho and, as Frank recently pointed out, quite a few others in the same trade, were conditioned in deeply repressed India, it might not be all that surprising that they took advantage of their extraordinary position, while often preferring to hide this from public screwtiny, er, I mean scrutiny.
I recall a conversation with a sceptical Indian man in Pune’s Cafe Delite in the mid-70s where he asked Bhagwan’s age and responded to my answer with, “Ah, a randy 40-something, eh?!” To which, genuinely offended and pitying the man’s obvious prejudice, I had little choice but to defend the master’s'celibate purity’. Seems the ‘ignorant’ gentleman might have been on the right track…although it’s a track I’m sure he himself envied a great deal!
I think the Master is no therapist.
Things happen around him, maybe he is aware, maybe not.
To blame it all on him is a bit too easy.
To suggest that throughout their apparently many sexual liaisons Osho, a tantric master, never realised Erin wasn’t getting any benefits, seems far-fetched, to put it mildly.
SD, Yes, it`s standard behaviour repeated with monotonous predictability by gurus of all stripes.
It is no surprise that the defensive ploy of “we unenlightened are not worthy to judge the master” is wheeled out by disciples clinging like limpets to their piece of driftwood from the sinking Titanic. Disciples of every so-called master whose secret activities have been exposed (and there are so many of them) have tried this one. Standard stuff.
I am slightly more surprised that folks haven`t doubted the veracity of the story, saying that anyone could claim this kind of thing. However, the fact that there have been other similar stories also surfacing would seem to have to made this approach harder to hold to.
For myself, anyone who presents a claim that a guru that has sex in such a secretive and manipulative context has done it as a “lesson” for the disciple and is oblivious of the power/trust abuse element is simply either desperate to hold onto their bogus image of the guru and by extension, themselves, or shows that they lack basic intelligence and humanity. Probably both.
Most disturbing is that there is no way that they could have thought these kind of thoughts before being exposed to the words/philosophy propounded by the guru himself.
That`s actually gaslighting and grooming as well as good ol` brainwashing.
@NP, Osho spoke about and taught tantra and could very much be described as a ‘tantric master’.
It would be unrealistic to expect him to maintain the lifestyle of a celibate, or describe him as ‘abusing the trust’ of his disciple.
Of course, if anyone feels abused in any way in a guru/disciple relationship then it can be healthy for them to talk about it and that may be therapeutic/cathartic in this case for Erin.
“It would be unrealistic to expect him to maintain the lifestyle of a celibate, or describe him as ‘abusing the trust’ of his disciple.”
Why would it be “unrealistic”, Shanti, if that is the woman’s experience?
“Of course, if anyone feels abused in any way in a guru/disciple relationship then it can be healthy for them to talk about it and that may be therapeutic/cathartic in this case for Erin.”
I wonder why she didn’t mention this to Osho. Too intimidated? Not enough self-esteem? Fear of being rejected? Or why Osho apparently didn’t enquire about how she was doing.
Osho, the tantric master, never claimed to be celibate. That has nothing to do with misusing the trust placed in him by his female disciples. To imagine in some way this had to do with an energry transmission on his part is pure bullshit.
@swamishanti
If, as you say, Osho was this great Tantric master, then why the secrecy? Why midnight blow jobs and not real Tantric sex?
No, SS, that doesn’t hold any water.
@satyadeva and @swamishanti
“Of course, if anyone feels abused in any way in a guru/disciple relationship then it can be healthy for them to talk about it and that may be therapeutic/cathartic in this case for Erin.”
“I wonder why she didn’t mention this to Osho. Too intimidated? Not enough self-esteem? Fear of being rejected? Or why Osho apparently didn’t enquire about how she was doing.”
From the podcast, Erin was groomed across a number of meetings, being told “100% surrender” was required. And that stayed with her for 43 years. Courageous of her to tell the story now.
Anand Yogi writes:
I am reminded of the day when I came across my master Swami Bhorat in the back of his Rolls Royce, late at night cavorting with a couple of Tamil actresses. They were on their knees in front of him in time-honoured devotion with heads bobbing up and down in time to devotional music that was playing on car stereo. The floor was littered with empty bottles of Armagnac and gin, nitrous oxide canisters, empty bidi packets, chewed paan leaves, porn mags, tissues, piles of used notes, watches, firearms and empty packets of red and blue pills…
Fortunately, I had read ‘Autostimulation of a Yogi’ several times and listened carefully to what master had said about ultimate longings of women so I realised that what was going on was tantric shaktipat, not some kind of abuse as claimed by Meetoo-inspired unconscious westerner baboons who are stuck in their minds and do not understand Indian culture!
Yahoo!
@Lokesh:
There is always an energy transmission. It just depends whether we are open to receive it. The problem is when we project our own desires onto others, in this case, Osho. It is these kinds of stories that ex-sannyasins thrive on and will take to their grave with them.
@NP:
There was secrecy but Osho would have had many women who wanted to be sexually intimate with him and declaring he was with anyone in particular would have created jealousy amongst many.
Anyhow, how he handled his private life was his own business.
We must also be wary of reading too much into Erin’s story, as we cannot see the whole picture, only a snapshot created by her and only what she has chosen to write and the way she has chosen to portray it. I have already written another comment in this thread, I believe it has been deleted, the way the story has been told in the podcast is highly suspect. This lady was a happy women at the time, forty years later she is complaining, and there are also false claims in the podcast. For example, she has claimed that Osho had a ‘hit-list’ and she was on it. This is obviously untrue and makes the whole story dubious. Another claim is that Osho was using hypnosis. Now, Maitri followed Osho around long after Osho had said publicly he was not celibate in 1985, at the Ranch, and there are photo’s of her on the World Tour looking vibrant and healthy.
She was also content in Pune Two. She would have been aware of some of the lies and disinformation in Hugh Milne’s book, which came out in 1986, all sannyasins were, yet now, forty years later she mentions ‘Hypnosis’ in the podcast. This is highly suspect.
We were not flies on the wall, and there will have been many other women who have been intimate who will give very different, positive accounts of sex life with Osho. No doubt. Only they have not written about them anywhere. It is unwise to jump to judgements and conclusions based purely on these dubious stories that have arisen recently.
Ozen Rajneesh had a few people leave his Mexican commune several years ago, creating a site to try to pull him down. They made him look pretty bad but, others of his commune members, including people involved, put forward a very different story, even here on SN.
Some time later Ozen’s team created this, which gave a more rounded picture:
https://ozentherealstory.com/
“It`s tantra and Shaktipat.”
“We shouldn`t read too much into it.”
Which is it?
Shanti, you are confused.
And now trying to bring in Swami Brian as back-up?
Omg.
I hear there are some vacant beds at the Chernobyl Electroshock Hospital.
This whole story makes me wonder about Vivek’s death. If she was so involved as Erin’s letter shows her to be, I wonder what would have been going through her mind during those last hours… Certainly Osho has to bear some responsibility there, too.
The circumstances surrounding Vivek’s death are really very unclear. She had been in relationships with other men for some time and was dating Jayesh at the time.
There are many sannyasins, including some who lived in Osho’s household, who doubt that her death was a case of suicide.
Apparent overdose of sleeping pills has been talked about but some doubt this. Such as Nivedano giving his tribute to her here with his musical voice:
https://youtu.be/lP5luopL_uc
Nityaprem, you are really buying easily into this stuff as if it is fact.
@frank
Thanks for the article. I found it rather shocking. It’s not how I am used to picturing Osho, but I don’t see any reason to call into question what Erin says. It makes me sad, as Lokesh said, to see someone of such high potential as Osho abuse his power in such a way. What of all the lectures where he spoke out against porn, the gays? Then to read this that seems a bit hypocritical.
The bit where Erin talks about sexual abuse of commune children, that is something I have no knowledge of. Boys and girls were in separate cabins on the Ranch, and as a teenager I noticed a lot of the girls were ‘unavailable’ for the usual experimentation. But I never did find out exactly what was going on, by the time I got interested the Ranch folded. I did hear later on from some of the girls in the Dutch commune about “loving initiations” at age 13, which is certainly not legal here.
Woooosh…That was in the coming, wasn’t it? However, this is the first time I’ve read about a person who had such an experience directly.
Idolisation and low self-esteem make a sorry mixture with regard to perceiving clearly plus thinking and acting independently.
Even for people who come from a so-called rich background where people (normally) are said to have abundant confidence and power to act.
To me, this feels quite sad and again takes away from my still remaining naivety and spiritual romance.
Such is disillusionment and I feel for the persons who got downtrodden by such situations. Hopefully they will be able to heal traumatising experiences with all the support available.
Now I am waiting for the ‘official stances’ of the current representatives of Sannyas. If there are any: official stances as well as people who are – or feel to be – the representatives.
Klaus, these stories have been circulating for some time now and I reckon most of them are true.
There is a saying, ‘When it comes to gurus, take the best and forget the rest.’
Since these allegations first surfaced over a year ago, I have had plenty of time to think about it and my own relationship with Osho over 40 years ago. I have much to be grateful to him for. He gave me help when I needed it and asked nothing in return. I prefer to remind myself about that, rather than get into all the weird shit he had going on in his life in his later years. Beats me why Osho did all the strange things that he did. He definitely abused the trust certain female disciples placed in him.
NP concludes, “Then to read this that seems a bit hypocritical.”
A bit hypocritical? On a few levels, Osho was a complete hypocrite. It is history now as far as I am concerned. Live and learn.
Lokesh,
One cannot know all acts and motives of other persons, I guess. I do not have an impulse to research and judge. Mostly I am looking at myself, feeling and seeing the reactions coming and blindfolds I might have had.
So, I get your drift and the valuable personal experience you have had. “Live and learn” – good one, indeed….
@Lokesh who wrote:
“Since these allegations first surfaced over a year ago, I have had plenty of time to think about it and my own relationship with Osho over 40 years ago. I have much to be grateful to him for. He gave me help when I needed it and asked nothing in return.”
Yeah, I can see that. But as a child, my perspective was somewhat different. Osho’s views on sex and partnership contributed, I believe, to my parents separating a few years after we all took sannyas. I moved house 13 times with my father in 8 years (not counting moves inside the communes) up to the age of 16, each move costing me all my friends and a familiar environment. It was really hard for me to have girlfriends. Growing up solely with a sannyasin father, his various girlfriends and a mother in another country was not easy. So our whole pursuit of Osho did cost me certain parts of a normal childhood.
But Osho did bring me certain things. An early knowledge of all kinds of spirituality. Travel. A couple of years in America. Interesting schools. Fluency in the English language. An experience of commune life.
Who knows how things might have turned out…?
@frank
This could easily have been a new topic on SannyasNews, there is a lot of stuff to discuss about it.
NP,
I think you are right. It certainly qualifies as `Sannyas news`!
Up till now these discussions and revelations have been taking place on mostly private Facebook accounts.
By putting out a podcast and placing the letter on her website, Erin Robbins is the first to put her story fully `out there`. It`s current and one would expect more online comment.
Over to you, MOD.
Song for Erin Robbins — musical interlude
https://youtu.be/1zvCpfOJaYY
That’s a very emotional song. Had to listen to it twice.
As the lyrics are hard to follow for me maybe this will also help others:
https://genius.com/Duffy-hanging-on-too-long-lyrics
Erin Robbins also did an hour-long podcast with ‘A Little Bit Culty’, a podcasting team that specialises in cult topics. It’s only a little sensationalised in the introduction, mostly straightforward.
https://podcasts.apple.com/nl/podcast/surviving-wild-wild-country-erin-robbins-speaks-out/id1553334816?i=1000556151327&l=en
I would really suggest that if people want a deeper look at what Erin is saying about her experiences, listening to the podcast is a good idea.
What I find surprising about Erin’s talk on the podcast is the talk about ‘surrender to Osho’ for the meetings for mediums (and being told to wear loose, flowing clothes with no underwear) and then later the midnight secret sex sessions? It’s like she was being prepared, set up.
Why the secrecy? If Osho wanted to have sex, he could have taken one or more consenting partners in the open, it’s nothing unusual. But the secrecy and the psychological preparation and the not asking for consent makes it feel like there is more going on, a power trip, brainwashing and hidden coercion.
Maybe in India, where views on sex are different, it wouldn’t have been seen as very respectable. But Osho never let that bother him in any other circumstances.
@ NP
“Why the secrecy?”
Simple reason, he did not want that people become hysterical like you.
Too late, hysterics are here!
But seriously, this is a topic that deserves detailed examination. The rot may go somewhat deeper than at first glance, it appears…
I have now listened to the ‘A Little Bit Culty’ podcast from Erin, Sarah Edmondson and Anthony Ames.
They are Americans and their innocence about Osho I found most amusing and had quite a laugh about how the commentators envisage Osho and the whole thing. Of course, that can happen when an ex-disciple wants to pull their ex-master down.
Osho once said that Americans are innocent – he had seen how innocent they were when he was there.
Erin creates a picture of herself as a victim, Osho the villain, and she has also insinuated that Osho had a ‘hit list’ of people he wanted out of the way should anyone talk.
This is bullshit. It is true that Sheela had a hitlist of people she wanted out of the way at the Ranch but that was clearly nothing to do with Osho.
She also portrays Osho as a hypnotist – something that Hugh Milne put into his book in collaboration with the US authorities and Les Vaitz, the editor of ‘The Oregonian, alongside other unsubstantiated allegations and some lies, which were put into his book long after he had left. Which the authorities then put into tabloid newspapers and was deliberately timed to coincide with Osho being in prison.
To me, I would suspect some involvement from the CIA or other interests in this – they are easily able to manipulate the media as they wish. This kind of story, these allegations began to come out after some of the old anti-Osho propaganda on the internet was being challenged last year.
Of course, I am not saying that all of the stories are necessarily untrue, but definitely the way Osho has been depicted here and also in Deeksha’s account, another ex-disciple who is known to have collaborated with the US authorities and become an informant against Osho, in a similar way to Hugh Milne.
Agreed, Shanti,
The CIA also had undercover agents planted in Poona 1 and the Ranch who got up to some pretty outrageous stuff.
If you read the book by retired CIA agent Micky Finn, you will know they also infiltrated Osho`s room and slipped Viagra in his meds, so that when he was inspecting the chakras of panty-less female disciples (a perfectly desi and well-documented practice in India since its introduction by Siddhartha the Sexist, at least 2500 years ago), it caused his kundalini to rise in completely the wrong direction thus giving innocent bystanders no other choice but to step in quickly and to give him some swift medical relief from the resultant Priapism.
All this was later interpreted completely wrongly and falsely by people who actually had no idea what was really going on.
Also, Micky Finn lifts the lid on the undercover spooks in the ashram and the commune who went around spiking sannyasin guys` coffee with 4D-UHT, a chemical which manipulates the hormones, making underage girls irresistible and making it absolutely impossible for even innocent American men in their 30s not to go on a rampage of deflowering virgins.
Yes, these undercover agents are everywhere.
Mi5 and other government agencies also uses propagandists, agents provocateurs, and embed uncovers. The English punk/folk rock band ‘The Levellers’ came to the attention of Mi5 and the lead singer was interviewed just because of a particular poster for a gig in the early ‘90s, during their ‘A Weapon Called The Word’ phase, difficult to see how they could be considered a threat to national security, but later, their collective were embedded by undercover Special Branch officers. These guys made friends with everyone and even fathered children with some of their friends, before fucking off and dissapearing after a couple of years.
After that, some people who already had suspicions of these people had these suspicions confirmed. Snakes in the grass.
The Levellers made a song about that not so long ago. ‘Drug Bust McGee’:
https://youtu.be/lEZwzWC8a8Y
Yes, isn`t it amazing the levels of subterfuge and pretence that guys will go to get a shag?
Hmm, Swamishanti, I think you should see the podcast against a backdrop of the psychological approach to trauma and abuse, hence also the mention of Dr. Janja Lalich and her book. These people have dealt with cults which are a lot worse than the Sannyas movement, and from that point of view, seeing Erin as a victim is perfectly reasonable.
The whole phenomenon of “cult victim” is something that needs to be approached with care. In fact all these people are of adult age, yet they get manipulated into all kinds of situations. It’s a grey area between normal movements with some cultic elements and full-blown manipulative cults. I’d recommend reading ‘The Guru Papers’ and looking with as much honesty as possible at your memories of the time.
Just because Erin has come to the conclusion that she has been a victim doesn’t alter the facts of the case in any way.
Certainly this whole episode has transformed Osho in my mind from accomplished spiritual friend to more an ordinary man with fairly ravenous sexual appetites. If he really had transcended the mind and satisfied the emotions, why all this desire? He still seems quite attached, not surrendered, not letting go.
I don’t know what Erin’s situation really is, whether she felt good at the time whilst being a sannyasin, and then, more recently, forty to forty-five years later, she feels as if she was abused. I can’t see whether she is blaming her more recent psychological situation on Osho in the past, how honest she is being, or whether she just felt used in some way.
Osho was very much into non-possessive, free love, although he occasionally advised couples to stay together, and obviously had married disciples.
From the podcast it is clear that Erin did not get much spiritually out of her relationship with Osho. She believes that she was a devotee but this remained a belief for her. If she did have any kind of authentic experience she has chosen to trash it in favour of this attempt to try to turn others off Osho, which is a typical pattern for some ex-disciples.
You put: “Certainly this whole episode has transformed Osho in my mind from accomplished spiritual friend to more an ordinary man with fairly ravenous sexual appetites. If he really had transcended the mind and satisfied the emotions, why all this desire? He still seems quite attached, not surrendered, not letting go.”
From what I have learned from several masters, for a fully enlightened one it is difficult to stay in the body. In this way they have burned their desires, as they have no wish or need to return to the body. Therefore the seeds of desire have been burnt.
However, this does not mean that they cannot still enjoy and participate in celebrating the outer world, which was very much a part of Osho’s own teaching and vision.
Perhaps you could read my post on 2022/05/31 at 8:05 pm where I have put some of Osho’s own quotes on his sex life from 1985. Here’s a little piece here:
“All these people were fulfilling the desires of their followers. I don’t care a bit what you expect; that is your problem. I am going to shatter all your expectations of me. I am totally a free man. I don’t care even about whether you think me enlightened or not. I am, why should I care
And I have loved many women – my enlightenment has not changed. I have created a historical event! In the future, no enlightened man should be expected to be celibate. I have risked much…”
Osho: ‘From the False to the Truth’ – 1985
Osho was very open about the fact that he was into free love and had experimented with sex after his enlightenment. He has spoken about this quite a lot in the talks he gave after he began speaking again in 1984.
Therefore this idea that it was all ‘secret’ simply isn’t true. He also gave explicit instructions on tantric sex back in the early seventies.
Osho’s vision of Zorba the Buddha is a radical departure from previous mainstream ideas of spirituality where it has been considered mandatory for anyone considered ‘enlightened’ to leave all enjoyments of the material world behind, including sex.
HOWEVER, and it is a big however, actually there are many other enlightened ones who have enjoyed a natural attitude to enjoyment of sex historically.
“Women are divine, women are life, women are jewels. One should always be either among hosts of women or one’s own woman. When she is on the breast of a sadhaka in sexual intercourse, then speedily she becomes like the cow of plenty.”
-Devirahasya Tantra
And there are tantric household lineages, ancient enlightened Rishis who had one or more wives and fathered children, etc.
Osho believed in free love. As you have written below, Erin’s piece has put you off Osho. This is not necessarily a bad thing.
But you may end up like one of these types who just want to hang around and criticise Osho and get upset when others appear very much into him, or say they are delusional, which does appear odd to other sannyasins who will occasionally wonder why these people are still hanging around.
Shanti,
You sound more and more like a Jehovah`s Witness who has traded his Bible for the Rajneesh Bible, some old Indian scriptures and a few Youtube gurus.
I think you are about ready to go down to Brian`s jungle ashram to finish the job.
The SS will be here until tonight when it will be time for another holiday….
Thus spoke Swami Shanti, one of the few people in the world who really understands Osho. If you do not believe this, Guru Shanti will produce relevant quotes from Osho as back-up. How blessed we are to have a true Osho disciple like him in our midst, here on the humble streets of SN. If we are lost, the good shepherd, Guru Shanti, will guide us home to the land of the truth. His blessings…
Please tag your name if you see yourself in the SN group photo 2022.
Swamishanti, I think Lokesh and Frank have summarised it nicely.
I’m not saying Osho was without merit, but as a spiritual master there are a number of things about him that one can and should question.
“Osho was very much into non-possessive, free love, although he occasionally advised couples to stay together, and obviously had married disciples.”
This doesn’t sound as if he had much to offer re the issues inevitably arising from longer-term, committed relationships. Perhaps because most of his people were still relatively ‘young’ even by the time he left his body and so might well still be regularly inclined to indulge in ‘casual’ sex. Eg, someone finding him at age 24 in 1973 would be only 41/42 by January 1990.
I recall someone I knew, an actively participating sannyasin for many years, declaring that many sannyasins exhibited “puer eternus” (‘eternal child’) symptoms, stuck in immature states, unwilling to ‘grow up’, which aspects of the movement tended to encourage, even to nurture. Maybe he was on the right lines, at least to an extent?
As many people’s problems tend to arise from or become magnified in intimate relationships (also causing significant psychic damage to any offspring if ignored or unsuccessfully addressed) this emphasis on ‘freedom’ can also appear like an excuse to avoid such ‘tiresome’ complexities and complications. For which merely by participating in encounter, primal or tantra groups is far from necessarily guaranteed to provide a solution.
Having said that, I recall in a darshan hearing ‘Bhagwan’ telling a married couple that for him, marriage was about “helping each other grow” (and also gently but firmly pointing out to another couple where the woman had complained that her partner didn’t like the sandwiches she’d made, that in a relationship “there are more important things than sandwiches”!).
“Osho was very open about the fact that he was into free love and had experimented with sex after his enlightenment.”
For me, it’s not that Osho had a sex life that’s controversial, it’s the apparently ‘ultra-casual’ approach, as portrayed by Erin, that’s surprising, to say the least – particularly if one’s read his tantric texts of the 70s (which I and many others did then, despite – maybe because of – being virtual ‘novices’ at ‘the game’).There seems to have been little love or intimacy – unless Erin is lying or letting long delayed-reaction of disillusion dominate her memory.
SD,
You are obviously not familiar with the wham, bam, thank you, ma’m school of Tantra. It has been around for a while, there`s a lot about it in the Upanishags. Ask Guru Shanti for the chapter and verse, I`m sure he will oblige with a quote.
Frank,
A vip (very important point) here:
Is it “Wham, bam, thank you, man”, or “…ma’am”?
SD,
My bad.
Perfect knowledge of the sacred texts has never been my strong point.
Well, there were a lot of happy women around Osho, close to him, many of whom are still alive today and who have been transformed and only have gratitude for their Master. Indeed, some are enlightened in their own right, others will be close to awakening.
No doubt there will be some women still living who did have sexual contact that will testify that they were satisfied/happy with his approach with them, perhaps just with close friends.
These women may not wish to talk/write publicly about their relationship with Osho.
Anand Subhuti mentioned in his book that he had spoken to a few female friends who told him that they had had sexual experiences with Osho, and they did not express any discontent or resentment to him.
There you go again, SS, painting air castles out of supposition and assumptions. Is this based on anything other than your faith?
Guru Shanti,
Not sure how good a character reference Subhuti can give as he himself was not long ago booted out of the Osho centre he was living in, at the age of 70/80, for sexually harassing young women.
This reminds me of a remark made by the partner of a friend of mine when she visited the Pune Resort quite a few years ago, and was struck by the pervasive presence of men on the look-out for picking up women, calling them (with intent to satirise rather than admire) “ageing Lotharios.”*
*Lothario – “a man who behaves selfishly and irresponsibly in his sexual relationships with women.
Eg, “they are seduced by a handsome Lothario who gains control of their financial affairs.” (Oxford Dictionary)
@Nityaprem wrote, 2 June, 2022 at 10:22 am:
“There you go again, SS, painting air castles out of supposition and assumptions. Is this based on anything other than your faith?”
I don’t know what you mean by “painting air castles out of supposition” or what you think you mean. Yes, I do know that there are women who lived close to Osho physically, like in his house, who are said to be awakened. I have heard this. Their stories will be only full of gratitude to Osho, naturally.
“There seems to have been little love or intimacy – unless Erin is lying or letting long delayed-reaction of disillusion dominate her memory.”
I think it is a case of different languages. The no-self has a different language than the ego.
Erin interprets what happened from her ego-view. Problem is only: the other had no ego.
This blaming the other functions only if one thinks the other is on the same level, has also an ego.
But why then should one become attracted to someone, if it is all fake?
This seems like specious nonsense to me, Satchit. Your argument absolves the ‘enlightened’ from making any errors as, by definition, being ‘no one’ they are incapable of mistakes, including in human relationships. In that case, one could also claim they’re unworthy of praise, never mind adulation, as they don’t really ‘exist’.
And if an enlightened consciousness implies love then what to make of Erin’s experience where apparently that wasn’t much in evidence, if at all?
I largely agree with you, Satyadeva. I hear what Osho says about love, it’s very beautiful, and I try and find what I know about love in his life, and I don’t see it?
This is a large part of what still disturbs me about Erin’s account. It seems to expose some wider issues in Osho’s teaching where he had some blind spots and did not “walk the talk”.
I think that these Khajuraho/no ego-no problem guys are so far up their own arses that one wonders at the viability of sending out a rescue party.
Btw, I hear Shanti is now teaching his unique brand of yoga at the Bungabungalore Ashram.
Before we go on discussing this, SD, one question:
Do you believe in ‘enlightenment’, buddhahood, egolessness, or do say as our doubting Frankie, it’s all fake?
Yes, Satchit, although I can not possibly know, I’m inclined to accept what certain people have said about their levels of spiritual awakening.
And I also accept what they’ve said about their ‘enlightened’ experience following this awakening, which indicates that it’s stronger at some times than at others, ie it’s not necessarily ‘all never-ending bliss’ each and every moment.
Ok, SD, then I would say if the ego is gone, then also censorship is gone, right?
So what comes in this hollow-bamboo feeling, it comes from the Beyond, doesn’t it?
Does the Beyond make faults?
Fact is, the Beyond is not always loving.
Well, Satchit, if, as you put it, “the Beyond is not always loving”, then there’s no reason why it should not now and then “make faults”.
In fact, given that the highest consciousness is said to be synonymous with Love, if “the Beyond” has in effect mistreated someone (eg Erin) then It might well be said to Itself be at fault, imperfect.
In which case, we’d better all pack up, burn our spiritual books, throw away our cds and mourn how we’ve wasted so much time chasing a Lie. That’s if we accept your model of how things work.
Satchit talks about, “This hollow-bamboo feeling”.
Once more this comes across as just talk, something he has read somewhere with little in the way of existential experience.
The hollow bamboo phenomenon has nothing to do with a feeling. A feeling needs someone to feel it so what has that to do with being a hollow bamboo? Nothing.
Perhaps Satchit would care to explain what he actually means by using the term “hollow bamboo”. What experience he has of this. Otherwise, it is simply talk, delivering spiritual headlines that in terms of his own life have no place other than sounding good, although perhaps a bit hollow.
@satchit
If the Beyond is not always loving, then it should sometimes be loving, yes? Then why have we never heard of Osho being loving in the normal sense? Has he ever brought Erin a bunch of roses, in the ten years or so that their relationship continued? Made her breakfast in bed? Done any of the normal things we do to show we care? Or shown that he cares in some other way?
Breakfast in bed wasn’t an option, was it, as she was summoned during the night and went ‘home’ when it was all over? IE ‘Out…In…In-and-Out…Out…In, as it were!
You seem to be a kind of romantic, Nityaprem.
Do you bring your wife breakfast in bed?
Erin was already special in the group of the energy mediums, was she not?
@ Loco
What do I mean with “hollow bamboo”?
Be spontaneous, follow your intuition!
@Satchit, who said “Erin was already special in the group of energy mediums.”
Aha, so you are implying Osho shows the women he “loves” that he cares by putting them in special positions within the ashram. So-called ‘paying them off’ by doing them a material favour.
No, NP,
I think it’s dangerous to be put in a special position. It flatters the ego. Next time you have to clean the toilets.
And the Master sends you to the toilets because he loves you.
Although some people need their ‘ego’, their sense of themselves, enhanced (“flattered”, if you like) rather than being sent to work in situations which could reconfirm a chronic lack of self-worth.
Perhaps they need therapy rather than a master at that point?
Seems like there were some people who were not sent to clean the toilets enough. Sheela? Deeksha? Other ‘leaders’? And what would the current ashram leadership think of this policy?
The timing of these stories turning up in the media is not accidental.
SS has been watching closely for some time and has become aware of the mass manipulation of the media by powerful forces. The reality is that powerful forces are constantly manipulating the media.
These powers are also able to create false facebook accounts, impersonate individuals, they’re also able to whip up stories and create media frenzies. They hire and have individuals and informants working for them in all places, and have ‘sleepers’ who remain completely hidden an unnoticed until a specific need arises.
For more hints on this I would recommend the Amazon video series, Utopia: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/B08CZ576NF/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r
And the movie ‘Snowden’ about the CIA defector. Snowden (2016) – IMDb
The mass population of the planet is in a sleep state, a susceptible sleeping state which those in power readily take advantage of.
Parts of Erin’s story, her depiction at least in the podcast, is suspect, bogus claims such as Osho wanted any women out if the way, ie to be killed, and other similarities to a known US agent Hugh Milne’s account, which had assistance from the US authorities at the time, including the hypnosis story.
Guru Shanti is getting his inside info about “powerful forces manipulating the media” from conspiracy thrillers on Amazon Prime.
Lol.
That Prime series is pretty damn good but my intel is not coming from that. I have seen too many instances of media platforms blatantly being manipulated, not just the press and tv.
“It’s all about the information…” Dub Syndicate ‘Corporation’:
https://youtu.be/b-FHKjOKgfU
Damn right, SS.
We’re in the matrix and the whole world’s brainwashed!
https://youtu.be/zCBNwGHPZ2M
Ultimately, what broke my connection to the sannyasin scene had nothing to do with Osho’s madcap behaviour. It was the guns. When I saw those twats in lilac police uniforms in Oregon, wearing peaked hats and rotting machine guns, I realized I wanted no part of it.
Then we had Sheela Kurz in charge, a completely egotistical nut job. Anyone who wanted to follow orders dealt out by that deranged woman needed psychiatric help. The show went on for a while and I got busy building a life for myself and my family in Spain. Then the Ranch collapsed and Osho ended up in India and it was business as usual for a while until Osho died. Now the dirty laundry is hanging out for everyone to see. Pretty awful.
I do not see anyone as being particularly responsible for the mess. Osho never hid the fact that he was crazy. I do believe there is a collective responsibility. The sannyasin sheep will continue to bleat that it was all a device for their awakening, while they sleep on into eternity. A thousand and one trite sayings about the mystery of what an enlightened master’s behaviour represents etc. But was Osho enlightened? Who really knows? Personally, I doubt it. Taking into account all that has now been revealed about Osho’s private life, it is difficult to tie it all in with him being a buddha. Buddhas do not trick their female disciples into giving them blow jobs. That is bullshit. And it is swallowing that kind of bullshit that lies at the heart of the shambles that represents Sannyas today.
Not enough sannyasins had the guts to stand up and say this and that is wrong. So brainwashed into ‘acceptance’ and ‘surrender’ and being non-judgemental they had become. Doing nothing about all those wrongs was the greatest of crimes in the sannyas community. Of course, the more intelligent and discerning packed their bags and got out.
Having said all that, it must be acknowledged that Osho was directly responsible for a lot of good. In his own way, he changed people’s lives for the better. He did much to promote a meditative lifestyle. You can’t knock that. He made the world a wee bit better than the way he found it. That is a great accomplishment. That is the best a human being can do in life. As for the rest, forget it and remember that you won’t be fooled again.
Osho certainly was good for a long time at maintaining a certain image. When you hear about him picking the photos that were going to be used for his books, or his robe, or his towel over the arm, he was very aware of how he came across.
But his teachings did, as you say, make a positive impact on many people. Living, laughter, celebration, it’s a message that still speaks to me today and that I need to be reminded of every so often. He did make the world better, and that, as you say, @Lokesh, is a great accomplishment.
So how do we square that with what Erin Robbins experienced? I think it’s clear that Osho was not immune to desire. I don’t think he was a buddha, he was uniquely his own kind of man, who succumbed to the temptations of power once in a while. He made a big show of placing women in positions of power and then privately he does something like this. Sometimes he manipulated people, I’ve heard.
I think it is not bad to be fooled. For many sannyasins and ex-sannyasins this was the richest period in their lives. But I think it is important to maintain some boundaries, some feeling for what is good for your deep inner self so that you don’t end up like Erin did finding out 40 years later that someone has transgressed.
I won’t end up like Erin did finding out 40 years later that someone has transgressed, because Osho never asked me to give him a blow-job.
Careful, parody:
“Eastern boys & Western girls”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_bE36z3NGM
Based on the original of the Pet Shop Boys:
‘West End Girls’….
In your studies you have moved into the Buddhist way of considering enlightenment, @NP. In the Buddhist tradition, a Buddha is expected to live without enjoying desire in the sense of no material attachments, no sex, etc.
Thankfully, Osho burnt all of those conditions and various restrictions and we now have a life-affirmative spirituality as part of Osho’s heritage, where it is possible for an enlightened one, a Buddha, to lead a normal, ordinary life, enjoying sex, beers, tv, motor cars, cigars, whatever he fancies. These things will not affect his enlightenment nor his enlightened transmission in the least.
The old rules and regulations, set by Buddhism are what I would describe as “All-inclusive meditation bollocks”. Although they are not really part of meditation practice itself, but rather unnecessary requirements , multiple restrictions and moral expectations.
I think though that the buddhists are right on quite a few counts. If you really become mindfully aware, you don’t desire beer so much anymore, because you notice what alcohol does to you. And the precept is against sexual misconduct, and I would say abuse of power is often part of that.
For me, the key to interacting with others has always been “do not do to others what you would not wish to be done unto you.” Known as the golden rule. Now I am beginning to doubt Osho understood that.
I can see that you’re well into Buddhism.
Osho was really not into giving rules, regulations, outer rules of conduct or moral codes…just freedom but focusing on witnessing…which always turns into love and compassion at some point.
I think you’re somewhat naive about our inner world, Swamishanti, and Osho was not nearly as nice as you give him credit for. He was sometimes fiery and angry and insulting of people, qualities you wouldn’t find in a Buddhist speaker.
I don’t figure how you find me “naive about out inner world”, NP.
I agree that Osho was indeed fiery and occasionally even nasty, especially when dishing out ‘hits’, to a group of visiting Roman Catholic priests, for example, in Pune Two (Christianity the deadliest poison and Zen the antidote to all poisons) and on many other occasions telling people what they didn’t want to hear based on the particular ego identification of whoever happened to be sitting in front of him.
He loved provoking people.
I enjoy it sometimes when people get provoked, and it amuses me when I see various religious and spiritual types getting upset about Osho (and believe me, there are so many of them there) but I wouldn’t do the things that Osho did.
I am much more of a friendly person, although can be fiery. I’m not into expensive watches. Actually, I was thinking about the differences between myself and Osho just the other day.
However, Osho was as compassionate a man as you will find. His very being was love. A Buddhist preacher talks about nice things and has been tauhgt to behave in a particular way but has not the compassion or the inner light of an Osho.
One needs meditation otherwise it all remains simply speculation on a purely intellectual level.
Perhaps we’ll talk again in two weeks. I’ve just put my crash helmet on.
Guru Shanti concludes, “Otherwise it all remains simply speculation on a purely intellectual level.”
Yes, that is true. Funny enough, Guru Shanti is the person most guilty of that on SN. Having read many of his holiness’s comments I have come to the conclusion that he never actually met Osho, in the sense of sitting down with the man and having a wee chat with the man. Of course, I might be mistaken, but I doubt it.
He describes Osho as an enlightened being, but taking into consideration the current debate, Osho was a pretty ordinary Indian in the way he treated some of his female sannyasins in requesting that they perform sexual acts for him. There was nothing tantric about it.
Osho began to rise in the guru ranks with the publication of ‘From Sex to Superconsciousness’, a book in which he talks about hours-long lovemaking sessions. It is pretty clear from several women’s accounts that Osho definitely did not practise what he preached on this level…quite the opposite…a one minute quickie with absolutely no foreplay was the order of the day. This is extremely hypocritical. What is enlightened about that? Sweet fuck all.
Therefore it can be said that Guru Shanti’s ideas about Osho are based on speculation and projection because he does not have a clue about who and what Osho actually was. From personal experience, I can honestly say that Osho was a truly remarkable man with the most powerful good vibes I have ever been fortunate enough to meet. I very much doubt he was enlightened in a spiritual sense because he left behind too much dirty laundry.
Good for Osho. He blew all the spiritual lame ducks like Guru Shanti clean out of the water, leaving them floating around in no mind’s land trying to make sense of it all, when in fact it was all complete non-sense.
Indeed, I did arrive in Pune One after Osho had gone into silence.
After that he stopped giving the same darshans that you went to and he only discoursed later.
However, I do know a fair amount of sannyasins who met him personally. One friend told me that when he sat in front of Osho he went out of his body and right up above the ashram and could look down and actually see himself sitting there down in front of Osho below.
However, instead of Osho he could see only a very bright white light.
I didn’t know Osho personally as a man but my understanding is not only based on intellectual speculation, indeed it arises from a deep connection with Osho – that has arisen inside of me. Therefore it is on a deep spiritual level and has dispelled any doubts that my mind used to produce.
I agree Osho was absolutely ordinary, I won’t agree that there was nothing tantric about his sexual enjoyments. But I really couldn’t care less as I am not overly interested in his sex life.
See you in a couple of weeks. Got my helmet on now.
Yes, many have their special spiritual experiences due to sitting in front of Osho, myself included. In retrospect I really can’t say for sure how valid any of those experiences are. It must be taken into account that gurus like Osho present us with the perfect screen to project our spiritual fantasies onto.
The heart of the matter is that true spiritual experience has nothing to do with spiritual experiences, and everything to do with that which views the experiences. It is therefore that I take everyone’s spiritual experiences stories with a pinch of curry powder, especially my own.
The inner world, too, is full of phenomena. No surprise there.
I enjoy how you have put this in your last comment, Loke…
“Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”
I guess this includes spiritual phenomena, also.
See the left out “buddhist mumbo-jumbo”?
Lokesh, I see your doubt.
You think, now this Osho has betrayed the trust of female disciples, maybe he has betrayed me too.
Maybe he is a fraud, maybe he is not enlightened at all?
I say, don’t worry, he is still enlightened, just the Indian style.
So long being used to this guy, one forgets the basics easily.
And one can be happy that it is not enlightenment, Russian-style.
Take it easy!
@swamishanti who wrote “his very being was love”
Now, I don’t see how you can know that. If you look at the books throughout his career, there were plenty of instances which demonstrate him feeling anger and not being particularly pleasant. Erin’s accounts show Osho’s manipulative side.
Whether a buddhist teacher has the same inner light as Osho, I was once at a ceremony given by the Dagpo Rinpoche, a fairly prominent Tibetan buddhist figure, and he had a definite radiance.
@Nityaprem
Ok, thanks. I discovered unconditional love inside myself through meditation, at that time I wept in gratitude to Osho as he had been my main teacher in meditation in this lifetime. He had spoken about it, now I was experiencing it myself.
That opening of the heart grew deeper and deeper with more meditation and is the best feeling experience.
There are some things that can only be understood by experience. Unconditional love is one of them. One does not have to be enlightened to be feeling unconditional love as an ongoing experience, and it doesn’t mean that one will not get angry, have moods, or even act in ways that others may consider unreasonable.
Later I came into contact with some enlightened masters, and felt the unconditional love coming from them also.
Later I unexpectedly developed an inner connection with Osho. I will not write about that much. It was enough to dispel any doubts that my mind occasionally produced, and I could feel his love also. I could understand things from his books more clearly, in fact it changed my whole perspective of Osho.
Psychology, science are unable to understand love, the growth of consciousness through meditation, etc. You can doubt me, think I am imagining or deluded but ultimately you can only discover these things yourself through your own meditation practice.
Shanti, up to now I haven’t seen any evidence of any “unconditional love” for Erin and her plight.
Or are you leaving that for Osho to have taken care of?
Shanti says:
“You can doubt me, think I am imagining or deluded, but ultimately you can only discover these things yourself through your own meditation practice.”
Yawn. You are getting to sound more and more like yet another online satsang junkie on a wannabe guru trip.
It happens all the time to people who watch too many Youtube gurus and Samdarshis, Brians and their Osho impressionist ilk and read too much Sid the Sexist and his amazing Upanishad sidhis/Autostimulation of a Yogi-type superpower nonsense and think, “I want to be Hari Puttah.”
Get real, bro.
Ehm…
SD, I cannot comment on Erin because I cannot see the whole situation, how she was at the time, what was really going on, if her feelings changed later, her own personal psychological state and her later life, etc.
As far Osho is concerned the unconditional love was always there. After enlightenment all fear disappears and only love is left. I trust him on spiritual matters absolutely. No matter what his particular bedroom antics were, his attitude to sex, etc.
When Osho spoke about his sex life back at the Ranch, he clearly said that it was all consensual. Would he have dared to make such a statement publicly , if there was lots of non-consensual sex going on behind the scenes? Seems extremely unlikely and there were no complaints from anyone at the time.
Have you listened to the podcast, Shanti? That should help clarify these aspects.
As for trusting Osho on spiritual matters, I agree, he was/is a great master. However, you seem to separate “his particular bedroom antics…his attitude to sex, etc.” from the rest of his teaching, as if they were relatively unimportant, when that whole area of life is hugely significant for humanity, responsible for much unhappiness as well as joy, and where it wouldn’t be unreasonable to expect an example of ‘enlightened’ behaviour from ‘the master of masters’, would it?
@Lokesh you put:
“Yes, many have their special spiritual experiences due to sitting in front of Osho, myself included. In retrospect I really can’t say for sure how valid any of those experiences are. It must be taken into account that gurus like Osho present us with the perfect screen to project our spiritual fantasies onto.”
Lokesh, in your case you sat in front of Osho, and later Papaji, and had some powerful experiences, which have become part of your ego. All of us have an ego and whatever experiences we have become part of that, it is natural. But sitting in front of Osho, it was very easy for anyone to have mind-blowing experiences. His presence was potent and powerful.
One did not need to have to be very developed at all, to have these mind-blowing experiences.
Your own experience with Osho was largely based on Osho as a personality – yet you never connected with the large Osho – and that is where you misunderstood.
I also expect, had you actually been at the Ranch or Pune Two you may have had a very different perception today.
And today’s word for Guru Shanti is ‘patronizing’. Treat in a way that is apparently kind or helpful but that betrays a feeling of superiority. Works well in conjunction with words like ‘twat’, ‘wally’, ‘tosser’ etc.
“Buddhas do not trick their female disciples into giving them blow jobs.”
This you cannot know because you are not a Buddha.
Maybe it’s a new lineage called the Blow-job-lineage.
But you should repent that you doubt the “enlightenment” of your ex-Master!
Satchit does his usual stupid number by declaring, “This you cannot know because you are not a Buddha.”
With an attitude like that you will never know anything.
I must confess that, when it comes to responding to Satchit’s nonsense, I often ask myself why I waste my time on him.
@lokesh who wrote “…why I waste my time on him.”
Haha. Because he is such a cute, little, Indian-sounding Bavarian? Or have I been totally misinformed?
But I think we can know a few things about Buddhas. The Buddha stated that everything he said was for the purpose of teaching freedom from suffering.
I know why you waste your time, Loco.
Because there is a deep longing for understanding in you.
I think we are here in this Chat because we like to communicate whatever is happening to us.
And maybe also find out some blind spots or misunderstandings or weird (own) patterns in due course.
Every now and then somebody is playing the ‘advocatus diaboli’, i.e. taking the opposite stance to a seemingly set common attitude. That’s inspiring! To me.
I for my part am finding the ping-pong very helpful over all these years.
Somehow we are a small ‘community of fate’ – like a group of passengers on the same bus for a trip from A to B.
Keep on ping-ponging.
Lokesh chirped:
“Buddhas do not trick their female disciples into giving them blow jobs. That is bullshit. And it is swallowing that kind of bullshit that lies at the heart of the shambles that represents Sannyas today.”
Yet woman disciples can really benefit from having blowjobs from a Buddha – historically this has been known in certain Indian esoteric tantric groups as a particularly powerful method of shaktipat transmission. This tradition is much, much older than Buddhism and Christianity.
I tried to find an old Indian painting I remembered of a dreadlocked sadhu standing in a cremation ground with a woman kneeling in front of him performing fellatio. I can’t remember the exact term, but when I searched I could not find it and it led me to an Indian porn site, where there was a video of an orange-clad sadhu nlaying on top of a woman in some bushes and moving up and down. This was being clandestinely watched and secretly filmed on someone’s phone from a nearby building, until the woman underneath noticed and alerted the guy on top.
Of course, this can work the other way, too. Some tantricas devotees and disciples can worship the divine vulva, the vulva of the goddess, and this can happen between a male disciple and a female master as a form of meditation.
This kind of worship led to me becoming the father of a very energetic daughter. I am a very bad nay-sayer.
With a male guru my not saying: “No, enough of this” led to the handing over of thousands and thousands of lovely EUROs…ahhh, the heck.
Interestingly, fate willing when I got (more or less) kicked out from my job with a bronze parachute and falling ill at the same time in that year, I received my life’s best income: all financing and expenses covered, no obligations left. Plus early pension at age 50+.
Nowadays, with my wife and daughter everything is quite balanced: everyone has their own moods and temper and freedom of expression. Thus, nobody is put at a loss compared to the other two.
“Live and learn”. Lokesh’s fitting statement.
P.S:
Contact with the guru (male) is still possible; but I feel so wary of picking up the challenge, currently. I am not up to the struggle. Maybe I will never in this life be up ‘to this struggle’ again.
If it would indeed be a struggle?
Maybe find out?
With enough self-esteem and clear knowing of my own stance?
Swamishanti, you seem obsessed with these esoteric forms of shaktipat. If they are so great, why don’t we have a few, just a few, enlightened female sannyasins? Or even little historical flowerings of great female spirituality around the places where these teachings are held?
I think it is a load of bullshit made up by randy wannabe-gurus looking for willing female partners.
NP, we do indeed have some enlightened female sannyasins. Some in fact who were with Osho from the early days. Such as Ma Anand Sarita…
http://www.tantra-essence.com/about/mahasatvaa-ma-ananda-sarita-2/
We’ve met once or twice, many years ago. I will have to ask her how her enlightenment is doing.
How about this interpretation:
Osho wakes up from his deep Samadhi with an apparent sexual desire, the body shows an erection. He is a lazy man, so masturbation is out of the question. In the vast emptiness there appears a thought, a picture of a woman he would like to share this sexual desire with. Still being in this vast emptiness, where everything is happening all by itself, and nobody is doing anything, he summons his caretaker to call and bring this woman to him, in the middle of the night. The woman comes, and complies with his wishes.
It is cold in the room, and one doesn’t know whether the sexual compliances are happening on the bed or on the cold floor, nor whether Osho appearing as vast emptiness is getting the blowjob standing or sitting up or lying down…This scenario apparently, according to the woman involved, repeats itself over a vast number of occasions…No one knows exactly what happened really, apart from the woman and Osho himself, who has by now totally disappeared in the vast emptiness….
In the meantime many of his followers are completely gobsmacked by these revelations, their mind cannot deal with it, since it can only think in terms of or-or, it’s impossible for this mind to see that yes, the vast emptiness through the body of Osho is totally ok with wanting and getting blowjobs in the middle of the night in an ice-cold room, and him not wanting the woman “to tell the boyfriend”, emptiness doesn’t care a hoot – or does it?
Doesn’t it care about the hurt feelings of the woman, and if in emptiness the woman and Osho are one, then Osho must have felt the discomfort of the woman, but didn’t act on it…In my eyes it’s all ok from emptiness, but emptiness is still one side of the coin, the other side, manifestation, is also emptiness in form, and since Osho was that manifestation of emptiness, my conclusion is that he used emptiness as an excuse to let certain things “happen” that were out of order.
These things might not have disturbed his emptiness, but they certainly disturbed the form of many of his followers…Whether that was a good thing or not, that remains to be seen….
Garima’s ‘interpretation’ is pure bullshit based on speculation that has no basis in personal experience. She speaks about emptiness, meanwhile, her head is crammed full of speculative, spiritual mumbo-jumbo that could have been lifted from a subpar Lobsang Rampa novel. Her warped conclusion is that Osho used emptiness as an excuse to let certain things ‘happen’ that were out of order.
Those certain things did not just happen spontaneously. They happened because Osho wanted them to happen. He gave the orders and explicit instructions and the women were delivered to his room, minus their panties. For a man who claimed to be beyond it all it appears that he was not beyond even the most basic of human instincts. He lived in an air-conditioned cave and behaved no different from any other randy caveman.
Why is it that, when it comes to calling a spade a spade in their relationship with a guru, people experience so much difficulty in seeing things as they are? The need for myth-building in such instances reaches ridiculous levels of pure fantasy. Why not just accept Osho did what he did, plain and simple, and move on without the need to prop the old boy up with what amounts to a monumental pile of shite?
The thing is, admitting that Osho had sexual desires means his mind and body were still connected to his being, still causing the doing, and perhaps the emptiness was not as empty as he let people think. Maybe his enlightenment was not so complete after all.
And even further, why couldn’t he content himself with one woman? Why all the mediums? Why getting Vivek and Maitri to do a lesbian love-show for his pleasure? A fever of desire working in that supposedly enlightened brain. I guess now we know why it all had to be secret.
@Nityaprem,
The way I see it is there are several myths about enlightenment. One is that all sexual desire dissapears. This may have come out of traditions of celibacy such as Buddhism, or Jainism, etc.
More modern enlightened folks have made it clear that the body can feel sexual attraction after enlightenment- Satyam Nadeen wrote that his sex drive actually increased.
I expect that enlightened folks can easily sit in a cave without any sexual frustration if they need to/choose to, but this doesn’t mean that they have to do this.
Ultimately. it is only religious conditioning that determines people’s ideas about whether an enlightened one can enjoy sex, who with, and how many, etc.
Long before Buddhism, enlightened Indian Rishis kept wives and children.
In some of the tantric traditions sex is accepted and has not been repressed.
I see no reason at all that enlightenment and sex are incompatible, as enlightenment surely implies profound love, and the secret of sex is love, isn’t it? Ask any woman if in doubt about this!
Erin’s experience of extreme disappointment, disillusion perhaps reflects that of many people in far less ‘rarified’ circumstances, well away from Sannyas. No wonder she seems to have given up on men after realising she’s suffered at the hands of the tantric master she regarded as the very incarnation of love.
SD, I think Erin plays a bit the victim.
And this after this many years.
She was 25 years, certainly not a helpless child, for example, that was abused by her father.
I say it again, she could have said “Stop” any time, but she did not.
Why not? Maybe felt good to be special?
And later after many years, one starts thinking….
Satchit, has it not occurred to you that Erin was a victim?
Lokesh, is your brain still ok? Jokes you don’t get because too serious.
In your world she is the victim, certainly.
Has she given up the freedom to choose because of being a sannyasin?
Is the Ashram a Gulag?
“Has she given up the freedom to choose because of being a sannyasin?
Is the Ashram a Gulag?”
Erin was a committed disciple who took on board Osho’s dictum, ‘Nothing less than 100% surrender to the Master is required’. You appear to have no conception of what that meant, Satchit, no insight into her situation, her psychology, no empathy, hence not a trace of understanding or compassion.
Have you listened to the podcast, Satchit? If not, that should clarify one or two things.
It’s easy, from the outside, to underestimate the effects of being in a collective energy-field such as surrounded Osho wherever he set up a commune. Look how thousands simply accepted Sheela & co.’s bullshit at the Ranch, believing all was bound to be ok due to Osho’s presence.
And Erin was an ‘insider’ who lived in Lao Tzu House, chosen by Osho, one of his nine darshan ‘mediums’, a therapist/group leader, one of the ‘privileged’! Of course she felt ‘special’, unbelievably fortunate, she says. And she’d given up a career and prospects of a future inheritance from her wealthy family for Sannyas, in love with Osho, the communal energy, bowled over by the people, on a perpetual ‘high’, she said. And all that after initial reservations, resistance.
Easy to judge from the outside, not so easy, apparently, to be the person in that situation. Anyway, as I said, take the trouble to listen to her story.
Ok, SD, I can understand that it is special in a collective energy-field.
Maybe there is no freedom to choose, not for her, not for Sheela, but then also not for Osho.
Problem is only if one talks retrospectively of “abuse”.
It did not function with “mistake”, why shall it function with “abuse”.
Get it?
No, sorry, Satchit, I don’t understand your point, or rather, I completely disagree with you.
First, equating the situations of Erin, Sheela and Osho doesn’t hold water. Each of their circumstances was unique, it’s just lazy to lump them together as you’ve done here.
And re-assessing one’s past circumstances and actions through a change of perspective, information or consciousness is a perfectly valid function, if approached honestly. By saying otherwise, you’re denying a key human faculty, the growth of intelligence through awareness, which, of course, is part of what Sannyas is all about, isn’t it?!
Again, you underestimate the effects of trauma, which can cause the person concerned to want to ‘close down’ part of themselves, to not fully face the implications, the consequences of a deeply upsetting experience as it’s simply too painful to contemplate. That’s why it took Erin so long to truly recognise and accept she’d been ‘abused’. Listen to the podcast and you should understand this clearly.
Ok, SD, I try once more.
Either I say there is free will then people are responsible for their doing.
Erin and Osho.
Or I say the Buddhafield was so strong that there was no choice, people had to do things.
Also Erin and Osho.
PS:
We can leave it if it’s too complicated.
Have you read my post of 2.26pm, Satchit, which I in fact wrote quite a lot later than that time after initially just saying that I didn’t undersatand what you’d previously said (at 2.12pm)?
(By the way, your latest post (3.02pm) is so obviously flawed that I’m surprised you had the nerve to even think about putting it up here! I’m taking a break for a while, see you later!)
SD, that’s how I understand it also. I think Erin has had a moment of clarity and took advantage of that to take stock. It was courageously done. She had friends and acquaintances who she might lose and could make some enemies, but she told her story anyway.
Yes, SD, you nailed it as far as Satchit is concerned. He is out of his depth for sure.
“All these people were fulfilling the desires of their followers. I don’t care a bit what you expect; that is your problem. I am going to shatter all your expectations of me. I am totally a free man. I don’t care even about whether you think me enlightened or not. I am, why should I care?
When I became enlightened I also had the idea, which has been there for centuries, that after enlightenment one transcends sex. So for a few days I waited for the transcendence. It was not coming; on the contrary, the grass was greener. The women were more beautiful than ever before, because my eyes were clear.
It has been traditionally understood that if an enlightened man makes love to a woman, his enlightenment is finished. So I was a little hesitant. But then I thought that if enlightenment is such a weak thing, it is not worth having. How can making love to a woman destroy enlightenment?
And if it does destroy it, that means the love between a man and a woman is a far bigger, stronger and more vital force than your bogus so-called enlightenment.
And I am always attracted towards the unknown, untried, unexplored. I said to myself, “For five thousand years the enlightened people have perpetuated the idea. I have to experiment and to see.”
And I have loved many women – my enlightenment has not changed. I have created a historical event! In the future, no enlightened man should be expected to be celibate. I have risked much.
But one fact I have proved absolutely and forever – that making love does not destroy enlightenment.
On the contrary, it makes it richer, more beautiful – new flowers in it, new colours in it, new fragrances in it, new laughter, new smiles. The whole idea that the enlightened man cannot make love is absolutely wrong.
But you got shocked because of your expectation. You are unenlightened, you don’t know enlightenment. First, to become enlightened is so arduous – the camel changing into the lion, the lion changing into the child. And when you have passed this whole long track, you are not courageous enough to do something that may spoil the whole pilgrimage.
But, forgive me, I am a different type of man. When I became enlightened, I wanted to test it in every fire: if it passes through all fire tests, then only is it real…
After my enlightenment I smoked my first cigarette. I had never had any interest in doing such a silly thing. When you can breathe fresh air and exhale, why should you pollute it with smoke, with dangerous nicotine?
I have done everything after enlightenment which has been thought would destroy enlightenment. And I tell you now that nothing can destroy enlightenment, because enlightenment is not just an experience, it is a transformation. It is not that it happens once and you see the light, and then the whole of your life you remember with joy that vision, that opening of the window to existence. It is not like that. Enlightenment transforms you. You are totally a new man.”
Osho: ‘From the False to the Truth’ – 1985
Emptiness dancing as Lokesh, the great blunt annihilator of SN, never heard of projecting, no sense of humour, doesn’t know how to read between the lines, and very angry, methinks.
Garima, you think too much. You haven’t a clue.
And neither have you, Lokesh! But mostly you respond to people’s posts by saying you this and you that, often putting the person down in a nasty way, trying to make them feel small, being very sarcastic…hardly ever I see you responding to what is actually written, or saying, I see it differently. I find it hurtful, and I’m pretty sure others do too.
While I was writing the post, as I wrote it clarified things; I also tried to look at it from different angles, using humour and wanting to look at it from the emptiness/form perspective, and not wanting to be judgemental about it, somehow feeling into the situation. If that’s not your way of expressing things I can understand, but I would prefer that you do not try to make me feel wrong about that.
Where you are going wrong, Garima, is in your accusations about me. You state that I have never heard of projecting. Wrong. That I do not know how to read between the lines. Wrong. That I am angry. Wrong. That I lack a sense of humour. Wrong. Whether or not you actually realize you are wrong is none of my business.You addressed me and this is my response
On the subject of humour, you think you have one. Looks like a warped one to me. Creating a jolly funny joke out of Erin’s bum sexual trip with Osho is not funny, except for idiots like Satchit. You say you wished to approach the subject from a non-judgemental attitude. Old school sannyasin rhetoric that no longer cuts the mustard.
Wrong, Lokesh…I didn’t try to make a jolly funny joke out of Erin’s bum sexual trip. That’s your interpretation about my interpretation. And yes, my accusations about you are wrong, just as your accusations and dismissiveness about me and others here on SN are wrong.
Garima, sounds like you got off on the wrong foot.
Funny interpretation, Garima. I like it.
Seems like bringing in ‘emptiness’ may be unnecessarily complicating things. If he had enough of a mind and being to order women brought to his room for his pleasure, then he certainly had enough to show some consideration.
But it all hinges on that, doesn’t it, Nityaprem, whether it all just happened through Osho as a clear channel of emptiness, or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it…or did emptiness bump on some unclear sexual conditioning such as lust and power? Or can an enlightened one behave like an asshole or not?
According to Adyashanti there are 3 stages of awakening: of the mind, heart and gut…If there is only a mind awakening, and not the heart, there can be situations of abuse, and not taking responsibility for that, cause “it all just happened, there is no doer” sort of thing….Wondering now if Osho felt in that catagory….
Osho’s heart ‘unawakened’? That’s a new one, for sure! And I’m not buying into it either.
Adyashanti is right. You can have no mind awakening, no heart awakening but still have a knob awakening followed by an emptiness in the testicles.
Reminds me of when I went down the red light area in Bombay with Swami Bhorat. After a couple of quick blowjobs, the boss came by and asked for payment. Bhorat said, “I am simply emptiness-shagging-in-a-brothel. There is nobody here to make a payment” and skipped out of the window like greased lightning.
Spiritual philosophy and metaphysics philosophy are the best!
You can use them to rationalise and get away with anything.
Yahoo!
Haha, Frank…emptiness shagging in a brothel…reminds me of a story of Willem van de Wetering pushing Chogyam Trungpa in a wheelchair along the red light district in Amsterdam, that was after his accident…but he might have said the same thing.
I also remember a story of an awakened one saying, “It’s really difficult, especially with the women, you just see them as the One, as yourself, and there is this sexual desire, and no control or censoring any longer….
Yeah, Garima, I find I have that difficulty too.
When you know that all is one and it`s all a play of emptiness, there is no difference between sitting quietly at home and watching the garden grow and doing a load of crystal meth, sinking a couple of bottles of saki and a handful ofr Viagra and heading down to the red light area to go uncensored and completely let go of control.
Like Willem de Wettering and Chogyam Drunkpa, the emptiness inside me just seems get its willy wet and get absolutely plastered.
I find it`s so hard to express this eternal truth to folks who just haven`t reached the same level.
I`m glad you understand.
Empty humour…it never fails for no one.
@garima who wrote:
“I also remember a story of an awakened one saying, “It’s really difficult, especially with the women, you just see them as the One, as yourself, and there is this sexual desire, and no control or censoring any longer…”
That makes some sense, but then why the celibate image during discourse? I’m still trying to put it together.
At least in Osho’s case there was some control on his part. Midnight secret meetings instead of darshan sex sessions.
@NP
“darshan sex sessions”
Gang Bang parties you find in the Bungabungalore Ashram of old Bhorat.
@Nityaprem
Osho did announce that he had “never been celibate” in 1985 at the Ranch and said that he had slept with “hundreds of women”.
@swamishanti
Where did he say this, SS? I’m curious to read the context.
@Nityaprem
Some time in 1985 at the Ranch when answering questions about his sex life.
Q: HAVE YOU EVER BEEN CELIBATE?
A: Right now I am celibate, but if my health gets better I am not going to be celibate. I have never been celibate. I do not do anything against nature. Right now I am celibate, not because celibacy has any value, but just because I am sick. I don’t have any energy to make love to a woman and do all the gymnastics, no. I have enough energy to talk to my people, to talk to you. If I get healthy again, I promise you, I will not be celibate.
Q: DON’T PROMISE ME, PROMISE THEM. ALL THESE LADIES ABOUT THE PLACE TELL ME THAT YOU’RE A GREAT LOVER.
A: I am!
Q: HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT?
A: Many of them must have loved me. I must have loved them.
Q: DOES THAT MEAN YOU’VE HAD SEX WITH THEM?
A: Certainly. How do you love if you don’t have sex with them?
Osho – Book: ‘The Last Testament’, Vol 1
“Beloved Osho,
I have been a sannyasin for one year, and feel like a kangaroo who has to make big jumps to follow you. Today, I was shocked to read that you had said you may not remain celibate when you are healthy again. I thought you had said that an enlightened person has transcended sex. Yet, I know how beautiful it is to make love. Why do I feel so confused?
Please comment.”
“One always feels confused if one has expectations. Now who told you that enlightened people transcend sex? And immediately you are saying, “…although love is such a beautiful experience.” So why prevent enlightened people from having such a beautiful experience? But the idea has been created down the centuries that the truly religious people are celibate, and particularly that the enlightened person is celibate.”
Read more:
https://oshoworld.com/osho-on-celibacy/
Osho concludes that talk by saying, “Blessed is the sannyasin who can trust me without bothering about my statements or my actions.”
It does not sound at all like you can trust Osho without bothering about his statements…you are constantly quoting them.
@Lokesh, who quoted Osho saying, “blessed is the sannyasin who can trust me without bothering about my statements or my actions.”
I’d say to that, actions speak louder than words, words speak louder than thought. Trust is earned, the world is full of politicians and conmen.
I think what Adyashanti is referring to by a ‘mind awakening’ is a satori. Perhaps it happened that way for him. He had a satori, which many confuse with enlightenment, then a heart expansion, then his ‘gut’ awakening was his enlightenment.
The third chakra is the power centre, the centre of the ego. Osho has said that this third centre, in the belly, has to feel empty if enlightenment has happened. Although this would be only the beginning of enlightenment for him.
Guru Shanti,
That is correct.
I also find that a good kick up the arse can send the kundalini energy right back up through the chakras and cure a lot of, but sadly not all, cases of premature enlightenment and penile dementia.
Time for another break for me from this site for a while. Until next time..
C U anytime!
Thanks for your energetic input!
Cheers and Shalom.
Thank you for your input, Swami Shanti!
Cheers! Until we meet again. Wow.
Yep.
“Nothing to see here!”
Nothing to see here except…
Kick up the arse is for men, Frank, women get kicked in a different hole, and it might raise the kundalini, but not always in a pleasant way.
Correction, Shanti, the belly is the 2nd chakra, all our survival mechanism is there, it’s like a fist, saying no to Life…when the fist lets go, it is seen there was never a fist…or a doer…or enlightenment.
Ah, bollox, I’ thought I had managed to get away… Garimo, in my experience of the third centre , the power chakra ,which it is in the belly. This I have felt very strongly in a positive way in various times during my life, especially during certain work I have done, sales and marketing, etc.
It is centre which is connected with personal power, empowerment, individuality, etc. The centre that successfull politicians are coming from. If it is very open in an individual then that person will be unstoppable and will easily be able to influence others.
In the British army, those with authority are taught how to speak(or shout, rather), from the belly, rather than the throat, when in command of a unit.
Ma Anand Sheela is a good example of an empowered woman.
Those maps , chakra maps, with the seven coloured chakras are not always exactly in the right place, that is because they have been drawn not from experience but rather just parroting some one else’s drawing from thousands of years ago.
Also precise chakra positions can be different with each individual.
The second chakra that you are talking about, is usually placed lower down. But I guess that may be the centre that is felt strongly , and I’ve heard there can be a strong physical jerk when the ego is dissolved.
Ok, that’s it from me then for a while , capiche?
Plus not to overlook the chakras in the feet, in the hands, up to the elbow. And at the back of the head.
Very impersonal.
Alora. Andiamo, ragazze.
Don’t want to let you off without this link to
David Lindley & Wally Ingramm Live in Basel 2000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQo1kU09Hvk
54 minutes with oriental touch and western groove.
I bet you won’t stop listening – until the end!
Dankeschön.
Thanks for the explanation, Shanti…the energy here in the 3rd chakra (just below the ribs) feels very different than the 2nd one, just below the navel….
Yes, @Garima, in some maps the third chakra is higher than the belly which (may) correspond with your experience.
Yet in others, it’s only a little above the navel, whereas the second chakra is a little below the navel.
So, it may differ with each individual. In my case, my heart experience is very much felt in the chest, which is well known in all cultures to be the area where ‘heartbreak’ is felt.
My experience of the third chakra, of power, is very much felt in my belly. And it corresponds with all descriptions of this third body that I have read.
Yes, isn’t it, Satyadeva? Hard to believe that a Master of the Heart can do such a callous thing.
Osho declares he was a great lover. I do not know because I never had sex with him. Was Osho gay?
That said, from several reports I have read over the past couple of years by women who did have sex with Osho, by all accounts there was nothing great about his approach to sex at all. No foreplay, just a wham bam and not even a thank you, mam…it was all over very quickly…next.
@garima
Can you believe that a “clear channel of consciousness” can ask two women who don’t love each other to have sex in front of you, knowing that you have the authority of a spiritual leader and that they would probably obey, and use that to satisfy some desire (otherwise why do it at all)? That was in Erin’s letter, it happened. It seems to me that that is some hang-up of the unenlightened mind, lust and power as you say.
What that makes Osho is a difficult question. In the Tibetan Buddhist world he’d be stripped of his Rinpoche title, like what happened to Sogyal. If you compare him to Ramana, to the best of my knowledge Ramana stayed celibate. Poonjaji had a normal wife, and they lived together.
But Osho forged his own path.
NP
Just a little information from the wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._W._L._Poonja
“At the end of 1968 Poonja met in Rishikesh Geneviève de Coux (born 1947) — later known as Ganga Mira — a young Belgian seeker, who became his disciple and with whom he would form a new family, after the ancient Vedic polygamic tradition. Their daughter Mukti was born in 1972.”
Eastern boys & Western girls.
Osho was very inspired by visiting the Khajuraho temples, encouraged also by his Nani. Looking at the carvings and images such as these. Threesomes and foursomes.
MOD:
“Nani”, Shanti? (Grandma?!)
Yes, ‘Nani’. His mother’s mother : “Nani” Rani Ma (Shreemati Genda Bai Jain) (1896 – 1971).
She was apparently born in one of the local villages of Khajuraho.
The question is:
Do you think Osho is an ordinary voyeur or is there another reason, and what could this be?
I remember Madhuri writing in her book, ‘Mistakes on the Path’, that the first time she saw Osho, she tried to give him a hug, he felt as cold as an iceberg…imo he was the ultimate voyeur.
@ Satchit
Sadly, I think that Osho has given us his own answer, by making these meetings so deeply secret.
Any attempt by us to “find another reason” is only playing with words and ideas. We don’t really know.
@NP
“We don’t really know.”
Fact is, I know.
Because you are the only one who tried to answer and I don’t want that all these idiots here jump on me again, at least I give you a hint.
Ever heard of ‘surrender’?
Obedience ain’t surrender.
Satchit,
Interesting stance on other people’s views making them “idiots”.
Man, I never called you this.
I have a faint feeling that he might have had a ‘hangover’ from unfulfilled Kajuraho fantasies.
Surrender coming or going.
But Klaus,
You are an exception, you are not an idiot.
It is not the first time that Osho played the sex card for surrender.
I remember first time meeting Sheela he wanted to see her tits.
No need to worry about me. That’s my job.
No need to go low, it is only views and opinions. No rewards there, imo.
Surrender is basically an “I dare you to go further.”
Any sensible person will reply, “I surrender until it no longer suits me.”
Just one question, SD:
Had Erin the freedom to say No? Yes or No?
You’re someone who likes everything perfectly cut-and-dried, Satchit, who can’t stand ambiguities, complexities, shades of grey. Life often works differently though, in case you haven’t noticed yet.
I suggest you re-read my earlier post (2.26pm) where I wrote about the effects of trauma and Erin’s particular situation. Then you might realise that the answer to your question is both Yes (in theory) and No (in real life).
P.S:
And, Satchit, listen to the podcast!
Yes, certainly one can say, Erin was addicted to Osho. So she was not free to choose. Drunken in the buddhafield one does things that one normally does not do. Waking up from the dream, one has to live with the trauma.
“It’s a Yes! from me.”
But also, I feel that the trauma can be healed and one can move on with more clarity on whichever path or direction.
So much expectation that turns into judgments…Commonplaces against commonplaces. Manipulative Indians vs. naive American Zionist high bourgeoisie.
Veet Francesco
I am not so sure. I call maybe.
In the podcast the male moderator made this statement – citation from memory approx.:
“In any organisation lead by some figurehead sooner or later the organisation takes on the personality of the leader. This accounts for any organisation.”
To me, this sounds quite valid. Looking back at more than thirty years of professional experience in different sectors of the business world: there is some kind of streamlining going on – and most of the participants in my personal observation – IMPO – do not find the courage to speak out. Or quite decisively leave the plot.
There are certainly very acceptable personal reasons for this.
But on the other hand there are also limitations in the personality for not being able to do so.
Love it. Change it. Or leave it.
@Klaus who cited:
“In any organisation led by some figurehead sooner or later the organisation takes on the personality of the leader.”
That’s an interesting statement when applied to the commune, isn’t it? The commune exhibits lovely aesthetics, meditative sense, high ideals, a competitive streak and some craziness in the leadership…
But it didn’t take very good care of its children, as we’ve noticed. As Erin also says in the podcast, it’s crazy for there to be this focus on the New Man, and then this strong policy of not having kids, sterilisation, almost neglect of the children that were there.
@Nityaprem
I once read an account of a Ma who observed a young boy child walking around the road construction sites on the Oregon project. Just with some pampers on, in the mud, among the trucks running back and forth. She stated she wondered that the boy did not get killed by the trucks.
To me, this is certainly neglect. No love, no awareness, no attention, no mindfulness, no heart,
no patience to take time out to care.
Fracking unbelievable.
This story still gets me as now I am a father, too, and can feel the explosion and expansion of my heart.
What a trip. How many mistakes.
My view.
Nityaprem, from the mind I wanted to give Osho the benefit of the doubt, also it’s true what Lokesh said that I haven’t got a clue about an incident that happened 30 years ago between 2 people, and I wasn’t even there…So it’s just a story, but because it involved Osho and womanhood, more feelings are surfacing now.
Also seeing more clearly that my investment and projections about Osho, although I’d like to think he’s not my teacher any longer, apparently are still there. But up till now I hadn’t really realized on a gut feeling level how devastating it must have been, especially for a woman, to be betrayed by her master in that way. I imagine it must have felt like rape. That’s already horrendous, but if it is by a master you trust, it must feel a thousandfold so.
Garima, now you are talking. Good post.
Just want to throw in another view that has been bypassed.
In the pro/anti guru outbreak, no one here has really considered that Erin might be making it up or at least decorating. What is the evidence?
After all, she spent a long time in a cult, and stayed in the satsang subcult scene for some decades after Osho died. Now she has fallen in with the anti-cultists. The site that podcast Erin`s podcast is on, ‘A Little Bit Culty’, takes a pretty hardcore, committed anti-cult stance based on the work of Janja Lalich who is an “expert on cults”.
What is to say that Erin hasn`t developed a lifelong habit of going with the crowd and saying stuff accordingly? And that the anti-cultists are just the latest cult/forceful ideology that she has been taken in by?
If this was a legal investigation, for example, corroborating evidence would be needed to raise her letter from the level of unfounded allegation to something more substantial.
Is that available?
The incriminated person cannot protect himself now. He also cannot make any (criminal) claims against these statements, afaik.
With Americans, I very, very, very often give them “the benefit of the doubt” as I very, very often find it quite difficult to see the message through the marketing.
Clipped from google:
“Meet the Board and Staff – Main Site – Gangaji.org
https://gangaji.org/about-gangaji/meet-the-board-and-staff
Suman was a founding board member of the Gangaji Foundation in 1992, along with Maitri (Erin Robbins), Shivayama (Sally Ruane) and Gangaji. Over the years Suman has filled other volunteer roles at the Foundation, but rejoined as a member of the Board of Directors in 2016.”
Still there is disillusionment with the happenings.
Which I think is a good thing to happen to everyone.
Frank, that does not ring true.
All of Osho’s hanky-panky went on behind closed and guarded doors. Unusual for Osho there was little in the way of witnessing. It was all very hush-hush. After all, Osho was breaking one of the cardinal rules of gurudom….having sex with his female disciples. Many a guru’s rep has been broken on the wheel of sexual misconduct…not that Osho really gave a fuck about his reputation…but it would have been bad for business and he cared about that off and on.
The extent of the secrecy surrounding Osho’s late-night chakra adjusting sessions is really quite remarkable. A couple of years back I had a chat with a friend who lived in Osho’s house for several years, both in Poona and Oregon. My friend told me that in all the years that they lived and worked in Osho’s house they did not once see a suspicious female entering Osho’s quarters. Strange but true.
By current estimates, Osho had a lot of nocturnal visitors. I knew one of the women in question and she was highly attractive, ‘Playboy’ centrefold material. Osho had good taste when it came to drive-by selection time.
@Lokesh, you put:
“After all, Osho was breaking one of the cardinal rules of gurudom….having sex with his female disciples…”
I have heard this kind of line put forth by moralists before and it simply isn’t true. At all.
The truth is that no guru has to follow the expectations of any other guru who has preceded him, nor the expectations of the society.
But the fact is that even at the famous sculptures of the Khujaraho temples which Osho was well known to admire and visited many times as a young man, there are scenes depicting a guru surrounded by a sex scene: looks like an orgy.
I have personally seen that particular image and many others, also at the temple at Konark where there are many beautiful erotic sculptures.
Tantrics are often ostracised by mainstream society, yet you will find gurus having sex with female disciples is a very, very ancient thing.
The point is that this idea that moralists like to believe is true, these ‘rules’ that a guru should not be allowed to have sex with his disciples, or only under certain conditions, have been created by religions long after the death of the founder.
There are no such golden rules printed anywhere – only the rules made by gurus themselves.
Sometimes spiritual groups such as ISKCON – the Hari Krishnas – believe in absolute celibacy and take a moralistic stance on sex, believing themselves to be far above everyone else; typical moralistic ego sickness trip.
Yet it is ironic that Krishna himself is depicted as enjoying sex with thousands of women, and enjoying watching them naked just for his pleasure. Which is accepted by his devotees too. Sri Krishna is considered as the supreme personality in India.
Yes, Guru Shanti, I know all the above info. Osho was not Krishna and I am not a moralist. That said, I was speaking in general when I said, “Osho was breaking one of the cardinal rules of gurudom….having sex with his female disciples.”
Often the unwritten rules are more sacrosanct than the written ones. You want to believe Osho was just like Krishna: be my guest. Hari Rama.
@Lokesh
Osho was not Krishna – although there are certain similarities. He danced like Krishna and loved to play with women, multiple women, like Krishna.
Osho was also not a total pacifist, like Krishna.
Shanti,
Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita, says to Arjuna on the battlefield:
“If you will not fight this righteous war, then you will fail in your duty, lose your reputation, and incur sin. People will talk about your disgrace forever.”
How is this pacifism?
@Frank, I meant that like Krishna, Osho wasn’t a total pacifist.
Krishna encouraged Arjuna to fight in the war.
Those lines you quoted may be there in those books now. But those parts about sin, disgrace, etc. have likely been added to the script later…by moralists.
I feel early exposure to things like Khujaraho is like early exposure to porn, it can educate the sexual centre in the wrong way and create unhealthy expectations.
I visited Khajuraho several times. I found the sculptures and the temple structures impressive.
I also visited the temple at Konark which has some very impressive artwork in the form of erotic sculptures. I found the statues beautiful and to me they demonstrated a healthy attitude towards sex. I would not compare them to porn.
So I have quite different ideas to you.
In fact, I would probably think it was a good idea to send young men and women to the temples to study the sculptures.
Here is a bust from the Konark sun temple:
It *is* porn though. It may be stone rather than explicit video but in essence it is no different.
The Brits who discovered the temples hidden within jungle also considered them pornographic.
Before that, Muslim marauders also found the sculptures unacceptable.
They vandalised most of the Konark Sun temple and most of the temples of Khajuraho, in a similar way to the destruction of the Buddhas of Bamiyan by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
At Khajuraho, only 25 out of 85 of the original temples remain after Muslim invaders under the command of the Sultan Qutb-ud-din Aibak, attacked and seized the whole area.
A century later there were reports of local Muslims from Khajuraho visiting yogis with matted dreadlocks who lived near the remaining temple complex, and taking lessons in yoga from them.
The central Indian region, where the Khajuraho temples are, was controlled by various Muslim dynasties from the 13th century through the 18th century.
In this period, some more temples were desecrated, during various campaigns of temple destruction.
However, Khajuraho was remote, which protected the Hindu and Jain temples from continued destruction by Muslims. Over the centuries, forests overgrew the remaining temples until they were rediscovered in the 1830s, by the British.
These Victorian Brits were naturally also shocked and considered the sculptures pornographic.
“Tantra trusts in your body. Tantra trusts in your senses. Tantra trusts in your energy. Tantra trusts in you – IN TOTO. Tantra does not deny anything, but transforms everything.
How to attain to this Tantra vision?
This is the map to turn you on, and to turn you in, and to turn you beyond.
The first thing is the body. The body is your base, it is your ground, it is where you are grounded.
To make you antagonistic towards the body is to destroy you, is to make you schizophrenic, is to
make you miserable, is to create hell. You are the body. Of course, you are more than the body,
but that “more” will follow later on. First you are the body. The body is your basic truth, so never be against the body. Whenever you are against the body, you are going against God. Whenever you are disrespectful to your body, you are losing contact with reality, because your body is your contact.
Your body is your bridge. Your body is your temple. Tantra teaches reverence for the body, love,
respect for the body, gratitude for the body. The body is marvellous. It is the greatest of mysteries.”
Osho: ‘The Tantra Vision’, vol. 2
“Tantra is not a religion, because religion basically means: for the divine against the animal – so every religion is part of the conflict. Tantra is not a struggle technique, it is a transcendence technique. It is not to fight with the animal, it is not for the divine. It is against all duality. It is neither for nor against really. It is simply creating a third force within you, a third centre of existence where you are neither animal nor divine. For Tantra that third point is advait, that third point is non-duality. Tantra says you cannot reach the one by fighting through duality. You cannot come to a non-dual point by choosing one thing in the struggle in duality. Choice will not lead you to the one; only a choiceless witnessing.”
Osho: ‘The Book of the Secrets’
You could ask Osho some info about that, Frank…he was the witness. From what I heard he’s last seen hanging out in the Khajuraho bardo….
I`m mildly surprised that the defence of Osho here has been along the lines of “an enlightened one can do what he wants” rather than attempt to discredit the story. I guess that`s quite telling.
Garima,
I`ve been conducting some enquiries in the bardo and it seems that Osho had plenty of previous and an Akashik record as long as your arm.
Thank you, Lokesh…these things happen when you get out of bed on the wrong foot, apparently.
Yes, Garima, I definitely understand. I’ve given Osho the benefit of the doubt for a long time, but Erin sounds to me like a pretty reliable witness, and this whole affair raises doubts about how far one could really trust a man who does these things. I find it difficult to make up my mind.
Nityaprem, yes,it drives the mind crazy…good or bad, for or against…I only got some clarity through feeling my own pain relating to it. And that’s all I know really, the rest is all speculation and interpretation.
Yes, Garima, that is were I find acceptance, too:
What are my reactions? To already known plus new info.
Then I feel it settles, but may change again….
Well then, my core reaction is this: I’ve always been of the opinion that sex is where men and women are most sensitive, and that it should be treated with respect and care. I can’t fathom any enlightened being doing what Osho did.
Swamishanti said above that “Osho’s very being was love” but I wonder how that could be if he treats the women he has sex with like this. It isn’t my understanding of love, he never seems to get beyond lust. It will take me some time to find clarity, I think.
Guru Shanti, seeing how you are obviously into info dumping, here is some more, courtesy of Joel Kramer. It does not represent my views, just someone else’s valid opinion, in my opinion.
Having sex with one’s disciples, whether secretly or openly, is a real betrayal of trust because:
1) The guru is putting his own needs and pleasures first, which is an exploitation. “Honouring” a disciple with sex is a form of unabashed dominance — how can a disciple refuse who is committed to serve and obey?
2) Rewarding women for their sexuality taps into and reinforces deep lines of conditioning in them. Traditionally, women’s power has been related to sex. So women, especially the good-looking ones gurus seem to choose, generally have deep patterns that link their power and self-worth into their sexuality. Gurus, like fathers, are in a context that gives them enormous power because of their disciples’ needs, trust, and dependency.
One reason incest is a betrayal of trust is that what a daughter needs from her father is a sense of self-worth not specifically linked to her sexuality. Sex with a guru is similarly incestuous because a guru ostensibly functions as a spiritual father to whom one’s growth is entrusted. Having sex with a parental figure reinforces using sex for power. This is not what young women (or men) need for their development. And when the guru drops them, which eventually he does, feelings of shame and betrayal usually result that leave deep scars.
3) Sexuality with disciples (whether overt or covert) sets up hierarchies of preference where disciples compete for status through who is attracting the guru. If covert, it also creates lies and secrecy among disciples.
Fact is, you betray yourself with this crap, Loco.
Remember, you and the Master are one.
As a recap, how many women are claiming these kind of stories happened to them?
Is Erin the only one who has made it off Facebook and out onto the web at large?
Anyone have further info?
Good, Frankie Sherlock, more investigation is needed.
People get so excited, is there any proof?
Maybe Qanon is behind it. Who betrayed whom? Maybe it’s vice versa.
Frank,
If you want more info on the sex life of Osho, you could read the book of Satya Bharti: ‘Promise of Paradise’. Also, former Deeksha gives a detailed account of how Osho had sex with her in the early days…there is a sannyassin fb site with info about sexual abuse, can’t remember the name though; also Prem Sargam writes about her experiences on fb.
Frank, the name of the fb site I mentioned is Rajneesh Communes 1974-1990.
Thanks, Garima, good to know.
Well, I don’t agree, Lokesh. If applied, those ideas take us into a moral structure where the guru is expected to remain celibate.
You can have rules such as the guru is only allowed to have sex with his/her wife/husband, but why should the wife not also be the disciple of the guru?
And if you create rules where only marriage is allowed, which may satisfy some religions, are you going to be expecting the guru to be allowed only one wife, or are they allowed to have multiple wives as in certain religious traditions?
Who would be making all of these rules?
Osho publicly declared that he was not celibate when asked by a reporter in the US in 1985, saying that he had “slept with hundreds of women”. He was prone to exaggeration, especially with numbers, yet sannyasins have known about this since 1985, and have had their choice whether to remain with Osho or move onto another path.
They have known about the collection of Rolls Royces since the Ranch; many people left for various reasons, things they didn’t like.
Osho had sex with some of his sannyasins, which he was open about, even when asked by the world press.
Other gurus/teachers may decide not to do this, or to remain monogamous.
You clearly don’t like of lot things about the way Osho lived his life.
Why not just choose another guru?
Moralists always make the mistake that other people need their ideas and guidance how to behave and believe that they are so important that their own views are going to influence others’ behaviour in the future.
This isn’t the case. People don’t need these types of people to tell them how to behave, they can make up their own minds on how they want to live and what they expect from a particular guru or a teacher.
What I actually appreciate about Osho is, that he didn’t give any rules, he left his people to make their own decisions about how to live.
I will now be away for while from SN so please don’t reply after tonight otherwise you may be deleted.
Largely agree with Joel Kramer on this, I don’t think it is a healthy pattern.
Lokesh,
Also what comes up is that according to some women who were close to him, saying that he was hammering again and again that the main obstacle for women to get “enlightened” is their neediness, relationship being the strongest.
And I know this is a hypothesis, but just imagine these sex session could have been a kind of learning for the women. From their side, there is a neediness for the guru, they want to merge with him, but all they get is cold sex in the middle of the night, that’s a kind of cold turkey for neediness, maybe not realized at the time, but years and years later as in Erin’s case – cruel perhaps, but I can imagine in her case she will never want to play that master-disciple game again.
Garima,
Clandestine sex sessions in the middle of the night involving lesbian shows and blow jobs as an enlightened cure for neediness?
What planet are you on?
Planet earth, Frank, same as you. I presume you disagree with the hypothesis? You could just simply say so…
So far your reactions have been judgement of the whole guru-trip, wrapped in a humourous fashion, and doubting if Erin’s story is perhaps not true. I like to look at the story from different angles as a woman, and perhaps a bit more nuanced than from your position as a man….
Garima, Frank has moved on in life, experimenting with other gurus, like Sid the Sexist, the Fat Slags and, of course, Roger Melly, the man on the telly. He is an avid reader of the holy scriptures as interpreted by Viz Comics, although not as enlightened as Satchit, or Guru Shanti for that matter.
Yeah, Lokesh, we all play our roles perfectly in this SN show. Frank is perfect in his hilarious, vulgar, outrageous, comic way…Lokesh is perfect in his: I know best, and you’re a piece of shit, and writing interesting anecdotes way. Garima is perfect in trying to control, correct and advise this unruly SN crowd. Nityaprem is perfect in his honest, thoughtful way of looking at things. Satchit is perfect in his being simple, short, and to the point. Klaus is perfect by being considerate, careful, and a bit intellectual sometimes…Swamishanti and Satyadeva are just perfect…Madhu is perfect in her vulnerability and power….
Garima,
Lovely characterisation, to me.
Everyone being a bit ‘overboard’ in his or her own way brings in the fire required (?). Question mark as this might not be real English….
That’s the problem with words: one can never get “the full picture” plus the idea behind across….
Yes, Klaus, isn’t it miraculous that I have never seen you as a person, but only virtual like this, and still there is a kind of energy, vibe, communication? It’s not real, is it? And would it be more real if we met in person?
Garima, check your facts before you make accusations. In the many years I’ve been commenting on SN, I have never once called anyone “a piece of shit”.
No, not in those words, Lokesh, but more disguised as verbal abuse in a sarcastic, funny sort of way. It always feels to me as if you are trying to belittle certain persons here on SN, like Satchit, Swamishanti, Arpana, Madhu, and myself. You are very good with words, but imo you often use them as a weapon, and I always wonder what your motivation is, and why you can’t just say to somebody that you don’t agree with their point of view, and explain why.
The same applies for myself of course, I notice that mostly my reactions to you are also often on the attack, as a way to defend myself and show my boundaries. So in that way you are a good trigger to come up for myself….
When I started here on the blog I got shocked, too.
Then I realised that actually I had to look at my own reactions, feelings and attitudes: I saw that in the beginning here I was a simplistic person, simple minded, naive, feeling smallish towards the more experienced, straightforward, encounter-trained persons here.
Interestingly I never felt insulted or put down.
To me, it is a learning situ7ation.
Plus information gathering, too, as more people know and saw more things.
Perfectly imperfect. Or the other way round.
Garima says, “I always wonder what your motivation is.”
I have a confession to make. I am motivated by amusement, fun, enjoyment and enlightentertainment. I know it’s evil, but I just can’t help myself. I blame it on Osho’s bad influence.
I have only one rule about writing on SN. I never ever write from a place of anger in myself.
I do not need to belittle Satchit because he does a good job of belittling himself already. Guru Shanti is okay, but I am not fond of all that esoteric tripe he posts and I do not find him as clear as he imagines himself to be. I think he is a gentle guy and that is certainly a plus in my books. Arpana is very confused. Madhu means well but she is a few chappatis short of a talli.
Next…
Oh! I almost forgot. I think you might have been a kid in Poona One. Maybe slightly older than my son, who is 51 and spent a few years in Poona One. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I estimate your age to be 53. Your posts are in general readable, and you do have something worthwhile to say, although you do come across as a bit wooly headed from time to time. Judgements, I know, but we need judgements to create a rational exchange. I hope you stick around. You are a welcome addition to the regulars on SN.
@Lokesh
Oh dear. I may be your kryptonite. I’m a very unfun, straightforward kind of person. Very little humour.
NP, krptonite! I’m no Superman so no problem there. As Donovan sings in ‘Sunshine Superman’…
“Superman or Green Lantern ain’t got a-nothin’ on me
I can make like a turtle and dive for your pearls in the sea, yeah!”
A Dutchman who has little in the way of a sense of humour? I doubt it. You’re probably a Tommy Cooper fan. Next you will be telling me you don’t have a beard.
@Lokesh
I lived in England so long I like ‘Monty Python’ more than André van Duin! And you’re right, I do have a beard…bit of a love-hate relationship…occasionally I shave it off, only to grow it again.
NP, do you sing Johnny Jordan songs in your sleep?
Now would you mean Johnnie Jordan or Johnny Jordaan?
I have a decent but sadly undeveloped singing voice, I meant to get some singing lessons a few years ago but then the pandemic struck and singing was out.
Musical interlude — heeere’s Johnny!
https://youtu.be/nsEBq0iGqN8
Johnny Jordaan, of course. You know the dead guy who has a bronze sculpture of his noggin in Amsterdam’s Elandsgracht. There’s a flower box in my window…la la la and all that shit.
I think Johnny Jordaan is great, he just oozes gezelligheid (wonderful untranslatable word meaning something like coziness by a fireplace with friends having a good time).
Gezelligheid, good old fashioned fun. I can dig it.
Garima,
In theory, anything can be a learning situation, however strange, for sure.
But it sounds to me like you`re still hanging onto the idea of Osho doling out `teachings` while having his cock sucked to a Khajuraho floorshow.
Sounds bonkers to me.
But then, as Lokesh points out, I`m not as enlightened as Shanti and Satchit.
Thank bog.
Forgive me, Frank, for not being black-and-white about the whole thing. But I’ve heard Osho say that he’ll do anything to wake us up, out of the make-believe trance. So imo it’s either a case of that, or he was just a dirty old pervert…well, here we go, white or black….
Thank bog? Who is bog?
Garima,
I never said he was “a dirty old pervert”. Those are your words.
He was a guy from a culture where pretty much the only form of casual sex available was down the red light. He became a guru. Western girls showed up. He wanted a piece of the action and did what he felt he needed to, which was to use his position to do it on the quiet on his own terms and stay in control. It doesn`t sound particularly dirty. But it does sound self-serving, exploitative and not very pleasant for the girls, as the stories reveal. That`s it.
I find the idea that he was launching his custard into attractive young women`s mouths for someone`s enlightenment to be a mixture of cultish brainwashing and grooming as well as, I have to admit, darkly comic.
Just suppose, Frank, imagine that you could have been Maitri, you are creative, so that must be easy…what would you have done in her circumstances?
@frank who said: “but it does sound self-serving, exploitative and not very pleasant for the girls.”
Yeah…and can you trust a guru who displays these properties to guide you spiritually? That for me is the key question. If he doesn’t have the best interests at heart of the women who he is involved with, will he have your best interests at heart when considering your spiritual evolution?
Garima, you ask me: “imagine that you could have been Maitri, you are creative, so that must be easy…what would you have done in her circumstance?”
Actually, it`s not easy, and not just because I lack the vital organs and the hair. Indeed, any imagination that I could have been her and dealt with it differently/better would not only be unrealistic but most probably also an unhelpful stance vis-a-vis the situation.
It`s hard to see myself in her situation for various reasons, like that by the time Osho asked her to leave her pants at the door along with her mind, she was already living in a world that I don`t see myself ever having fitted into.
I imagine she was ambitious to make it in the spiritual world. Most likely the ambition was instilled in her from a young age, coming from a very high achieving, no doubt pushy, rich and famous family. She most likely transferred that ambition onto spiritual achievement. She was at uni/college and looking for a world to get into when she met Osho. Get in with the boss. Become a therapist. Become someone on the scene. Retain an elite self-image. Plus, she had the cash behind her. All these factors along with her pretty face would have made her an obvious target for someone with big plans and a pent-up libido.
I wouldn`t have been the right kind of actor with the right kind of life script for the role. It sounds more like `Dallas` whereas I probably would have slotted better into something like `Down and Out in Beverly Hills`.
It is well documented and understood these days that guys who initiate manipulative relationships have a nose for finding the suitable people as their marks or victims. I hope these aren`t too strong words for this situation but I`m not sure how else to say it. They zero in easily and instinctively on those with whom their ploy will work. Like the classic mafia “offer you can`t refuse”, the ploy includes elements of fear and coercion along with a suitcase of goodies relating to exactly what the victim desires (and of course, Omerta). In this case, not used notes, but enlightenment, closeness to the master, standing in the community, kudos etc.
Maybe later, he had such cosmic power in the eyes of all involved that he didn`t really need to screen for the right people, in a similar way that in his pomp, Sai Baba’s magic tricks were actually pretty poorly executed (as seen on Youtube) which went unnoticed as he already had the crowd enthralled with the much more powerful magic of unconditional adulation.
Whatever the case, the reality is probably that by the time she showed up at his door, the die was cast.
Are there any stories of women who got that far but turned back saying “Nah…” or telling him to go fuck himself? I think there was one woman who said she recoiled and wasn`t invited again. Maybe that would be about as good an escape as possible under the circumstances.
@NP
Yes, I know what you mean.
“Would you buy a used Zen stick from this guy?” kind of thing.
Frank
26 May, 11.00 am
That to me seems to cover it not only quite well, but very well.
Everyone knows Osho declared he was not a celibate. He made no secret of it. That is not the point. Comparing Osho to Krishna is pure nonsense. For a start, Osho did not have blue skin. It is difficult enough to believe Jesus actually existed, let alone some blue-skinned god tooting on a flute 5000 years ago in India to attract the local milkmaids for a milk shake.
The lengths people are going to in order to prove Osho was some kind of enlightened Buddha, Avatar or master of masters, totally beyond it all etc., has reached absurd proportions and it has reached that point because many sannyasins have a huge investment in Osho being special, which in turn makes them feel special. They are not.
Sheela was a nut job, but I do appreciate the fact that she came out with the truth and declared Osho to be an ordinary man. Osho himself declared he was an ordinary man many times, but the party faithful with their huge emotional investment in Osho being really special did and do not want to believe it. Being an ordinary man opens the door of possibility to Osho doing ordinary things, like having sex with his female disciples because of the power he had over them. Unlike Jesus, he yielded to temptation. A pretty ordinary thing to do. Ultimately, it is a moral question.
I see the situation for what it is. None of this had anything to do with the man I hung out with back in the seventies. When it all boils down I remember him as an utterly amazing man. Most of the people writing on SN never actually met Osho. Never experienced his remarkable vibe close up. Never smelled that mysterious balm he used. Wish I knew where to buy a bottle. They never heard him address them by name. Never shared a laugh with him, except when they were an anonymous face in a sea of people. In other words they did not know him at all. Not in the slightest. Of course they will smooth that problem out with wishy-washy shite about their special connection with the master. It was a communion of the heart etc. Sweet dreams are made of this. Dream on.
Ok, Lokesh, finally you come to your senses again.
How can such a man with intelligence do such dirty things that woman talked about?
Seems you trusted her more than your Master.
Maybe the whole thing is a matter of trust-test.
Do you doubt or do you trust?
Certainly, Krishna and Osho is the same on the level of consciousness. Only the expression is different.
Btw, even Zenmasters made love with their female disciples.
I don’t particularly care what Krishna or unspecified “Zenmasters” were doing. Those are largely mythological persons, little better than someone’s dreams.
But Osho was someone I sat in front of and considered a spiritual teacher. I hold him to a higher standard than ordinary sannyasins who notched a few hundred sexual partners.
The main thing is, I see no love in his approach to women, no respect in his sexuality, no appreciation of motherhood. It’s as if there is only room for the emotional bond with the master.
For me and for a few other sannyasins I know, Erin’s letter and podcast have marked a turning point in how we see Osho. It’s been the thing we couldn’t ignore.
Yes, Nityaprem, I can understand that it is a turning point.
Either your trust goes deeper or you have to say goodbye to Osho. Here you are and others.
But you should remember, it’s you who chooses doubt instead of trust, nobody else.
Would be good if Arpana would be here with a few quotes, for example with something like, “real trust cannot be betrayed.”
Anyway it is how it is.
I don’t know if I will ever say goodbye to him, exactly. He was a big part of my childhood. But trust him? Certainly I will look a lot closer at what he says, and test his teachings far more carefully.
I had a similar reaction regarding the books, words and teachings:
“Is it really that intelligent? Is it practicable? Does it really fit me?”
As you wrote to me in a previous comment, it is quite easy and natural to be (a little bit imprecise) in our daily life’s runnings…Life is life – and not a segregated and deeply immersed retreat situation.
Satchit comments from the locked ward in the home for the spiritually challenged: “Certainly, Krishna and Osho is the same on the level of consciousness. Only the expression is different.”
Obviously the anti-psychotic meds. Satchits’s been prescribed by Doctor Chopra are not having the desired effect. His delusions are getting worse. He does not know what level of consciousness he is on let alone mythological characters like Krishna, who supposedly lived 3500 years ago and is portrayed in various perspectives: a god-child, a prankster, a model lover, a divine hero, and as the universal supreme being.
Satchit thinks Krishna is just like Osho although their expression is different, for example, golden chariots being replaced by luxury cars, gopi girls replaced by unwitting female disciples who have been duped into believing Osho would adjust their chakras when really all the man wanted was a bit of sexual relief from the tedium of living in isolation on a pedestal.
Good that you are creative, Loco.
Here is something of the introduction of His ‘Krishna’ book:
“When Bhagwan speaks of Krishna, He speaks not only of Himself but of the potential, the possibilty that exists for each of us to become a dancing, celebrating Krishna – free to be strong, full of fire yet loving and compassionate; free to live life now, today, enjoying and accepting life’s contradictions.”
So, Satchit, where did you go wrong and turn into a parrot?
Yawn. Your parrot fantasy is boring.
“Absorb what is useful, discard what is not, add what is uniquely your own.” ~ Bruce Lee.
I absorbed much from Osho that I found to be useful, knowledge of what he may have (or not) done with female sannyasins is no use to me so I discard it, these days I prefer to work anything needed out for myself.
@swami anand anubodh, who wrote, “I absorbed much from Osho that I found to be useful.”
That is certainly true, a lot of what Osho said was original, refreshing, and useful. I won’t dispute that, and I am grateful to him for it. But that is a case of testing the teachings, as the Buddha would say.
These days, I am finding less and less of what is truly useful in his discourses. I know most of the anecdotes, some of the jokes are beginning to sound familiar…I was a little bit over halfway through the complete set of audio discourses.
But the trust question – aye, there’s the rub.
Nityaprem, isn’t it about trusting yourself, your intuition, Existence? I know from myself as long as there is a distrust in all three, or one or two of them, I start clinging to an outside authority, be it a guru, teacher, or spiritual books. Thankfully, it’s getting less and less, and bit by bit trusting that this is it…no way out, neither through a guru, nor spiritual experiences….
Thanks, Garima, that’s pretty good advice. Some time ago I found a quote by Basho, which said, “Do not follow in the footsteps of the wise; instead, seek what they sought.” I liked it, it speaks to not following blindly, but achieving the same high goals consciously.
But I think reason and introspection have a role to play also. Intuition is all very well but it can sometimes lead you a merry chase up the wazoo….
Nityaprem,
Yes, true, and by intuition I meant the sensing that something doesn’t feel right.
Anubodh,
Yeah, I guess, in the end it all depends on how much skin anyone has in the game.
Skin in the game. True.
When we attach our goodselves to a spiritual teacher/guru, we attach ourselves to non-attachment. Finally.
Now, I feel that everybody should be in a position to have as much sex as they need. Or even want. Ok.
Who am I to try and regulate the (sex) life of others?
In relationships including topdogs and underdogs one should (haha: like in the Bible “Thou shalt not….”, then almost everybody does it) be aware of the power differential.
And in my view respect it: either the topdog having enough sensitivity and self-restraint or the underdog taking an unhindered clear stance, i.e. take the freedom and courage to address the situation.
Clarity. That is possible what one can glean from these situations.
Cheers.
In the afternoon, I have read through some facebook posts dated end of April to 8th May 2022 regarding the “grooming of and having sex with minors in Poona and Oregon”….
Therefore, I want to add to my above last comment regarding the “awareness and respecting of an existing power differential” and the “underdog taking an unhindered stance etc.” is clearly meant for ___adults of legal age__.
UnHoly cow.
This whole thing has become a bit like an enlightenment intensive: Who is Osho, who is Maitri? Who am I in all this? Ultimately, Life has no meaning, there are just moment to moment happenings; the meetings between Maitri and Osho were like that, but they got stored in Maitri’s memory, and became a story, she shared that story and now it’s also becoming my/our story, but the question is: am I my story?
One from Jiddu Krishnamurti: “truth is a pathless land”.
Yes, Garima, but if events, behaviour, interactions are repetitious, follow a pattern, it’s hardly surprising if they “become a story”, which may be used as evidence to make a case, is it?
Satyadeva,
Yes, if we repeat stories of behaviour, events,and interactions long enough, there is always a danger to become entangled/identified with them. It’s bad enough if I believe my own story, but do I want to be saddled with a story that happened 30 years ago, and is really none of my business…unless it triggers something in me of course, and then it is my business to see it for what it is?
Garima,
I was emphasising that repetitious events, behaviour, interactions are themselves almost inevitably bound to become a ‘story’, and if seen negatively, a ‘case’, a catalogue of injustice, simply due to happening often.
As for this story that happened 30-40-plus years ago, if it didn’t ‘trigger something’ in us, that might indicate indifference, a lack of connection to Osho – or a concept of a Master based on a belief in his infallibilty.
However, Anubodh’s pragmatic stance (May 25, 12.18pm) might just be the wisest option: take what you find useful, ditch the rest – and trust yourself. Probably not for those of a devotional persuasion though.
SD,
I think the main question is:
Do you believe that there is some stable enlightened consciousness possible?
Only if you say No, you can talk about cunning or power-trips of gurus like Frank does.
Satchit,
I believe or dream that it is possible.
But then, one will still be in the world and there will be actions and exchanges. With whatever happenings and consequences.
Is there suffering? Question: Who is suffering?
Is there anger? Question: Anger towards myself or some other person? Or only anger?
Same for sadness etc.
No division of me vs. anger vs. another person.
I’ve no idea from my own experience of course, Satchit, and let’s face it, direct experiential knowledge is one thing, while a belief is just a belief – “for fools”, as BL used to say.
All I can say is that I’ve heard from a few teachers (Krishnamurti, Eckhart Tolle, Barry Long and others) that ‘enlightened awareness’ is strong at times, less intense, or ‘in the background’ at other times. Also (but not from these people) that it is possible for enlightenment to be ‘lost’ and that the individual concerned has to want the state to remain (which is normally not difficult) although I’m not sure whether whether that still applies after many years.
Re “cunning”, let’s face it, Osho was exceptionally cunning at times, using untruths, lies when it suited his purposes. That’s not a criticism, by the way, it was ‘for our own good’.
I don’t know whether Osho was ever on any ‘power-trip’, but normally, whoever we are, we all know that sex is an extremely powerful energy that can undermine anyone’s judgment or habitual good sense. Osho declared many times he was “an ordinary man” and sannyasins sang songs confirming, loving, even worshipping that very identity. Now, when the extent of that ‘ordinariness’ appears to be revealed, some, like you, Satchit, prefer to look the other way and admit no possible fault. Strange, as up to now you haven’t come across as any sort of ‘devotee’ type. But that, I guess, is what can happen when a cherished belief is challenged.
You misunderstood it, SD.
“No possible fault” is part of having no ego anymore. If the identification is gone, who decides what happens? Emptiness is always right.
But I guess it’s difficult to talk about this from our ego standpoint.
But – I know you’ll correct me if I’m wrong – wasn’t it you, Satchit, who agreed Osho had made at least one or two mistakes. If “emptiness” rules and is infallible, how do you explain that?
My understanding is that while someone might well attain and retain, at varying levels, ‘perfect consciousness’, they are still capable of human errors and what we normally term ‘faults’, great and small, eg crashing a car, appointing the wrong person to run their organisation, lapses of memory, irritability (eg Krishnamurti), indulging in self-ish sex….
Btw, I agree with ET that ‘spaciousness’ is a far better term than ‘emptiness’, which has connotations of sadness, painful loss, etc.
SD,
Emptiness also suggests that ‘nothing is happening in the consciousness’ anymore.
Imo this is not the case: thinking, feeling etc. are still there – each having one aspect of clarity and one of emptiness. Like reflective thinking.
As Satchit suggests there will be no ego identification – i.e. my thoughts, feelings, decisions etc…
Otherwise one would have to live in a monastery where everything is taken care of – and no worldly reflections, decisions are needed.
But I might be wrong. It is just maybe so.
SD,
For me it would be an interesting question how far one can understand the
phenomenon of enlightenment by us unenlightened ones.
If you ask me, these ‘faults’ you mention are judgements from our
unenlightened minds.
But how is it for the enlightend one himself who has no individual centre anymore?
Who has only one centre, the centre of the whole, what’s deep down also our centre, without knowing.
All the actions he will be doing will come from this oneness centre, there will no ego interfering, because it is gone.
I guess it will all be a happening to him, all totality, no judgement what’s right, what’s wrong.
Namaste
But Satchit, you don’t appear to have really considered the implications of your view of the experience of ‘an enlightened one’. I don’t think it’s necessarily always quite how you say it is.
Does an enlightened person not have to make decisions, choices?
Eg in Osho’s case, giving intimate personal advice to hundreds of people via darshans or letters, appointing someone to run his organisation (Sheela helped to ruin the Oregon project and undermine the reputation of the Sannyas movement), deciding on how his organisation would be run after his death, choosing which women he fancied for sex while determined to keep such liaisons secret (evidently not always ultimately beneficial for the women), choosing which photos to use for book covers, driving a car (Osho crashed his on the Ranch, with no other traffic in sight!).
Sure, his brain had been enlightened, he had profound resources of wisdom, of love that were a joy to behold and to bathe in, he was ‘one with Life’, essentially. But on other levels, some things he was good at, other things he wasn’t so good at – like all of us. And to claim, “I guess it will all be a happening to him, all totality, no judgement what’s right, what’s wrong” is not only to make a case for him not to be responsible for anything, but also to be a total fool, who wouldn’t be worthy of anyone’s trust!
I like ‘emptiness’, it does not make me sad.
But there are also other words for the same reality:
Oneness, divineness, egolessness, nirvana, non-duality, and so on….
That’s not true. SD, only he would be worthy of trust.
Because he has lost his separated self.
And his real self would be the same as your real self.
I would say the real self makes choices for him, the ego has died. Something new is reborn.
So, in your terms, Satchit, what you call “the real self” is incapable of making a mistake, in any area of life?
How then do you explain the “happenings” (your term again) I’ve mentioned?
By saying it’s our unenlightened perception that’s at fault, regardless of the evidence?
Do you come from a Catholic background by any chance? As this reminds me of the doctrine of Papal infallibility.
What happenings you mean, SD?
There are so many happenings happen.
He said enlightenment does not mean that he knows that his room is bugged.
So I guess enlightenment does also not mean that he knows that Sheela was the right person.
“What happenings?”
The examples I listed, of course.
“He said enlightenment does not mean that he knows that his room is bugged.
So I guess enlightenment does also not mean that he knows that Sheela was the right person.”
Ignoring that knowing a room is bugged and perceiving a person clearly require very different capacities…Therefore you agree that “enlightenment” is capable of making a mistake, a misjudgment here and there, notwithstanding its ever-deepening profundity (as the enlightened ones report is the case).
And that misjudgment of Sheela wasn’t a small issue, look what happened because of it.
Why expect anyone, even an enlightened person, ‘one with Life’ etc. to be any sort of reliable expert on or be automatically qualified to cope adequately with an area of life or of expertise in which they have no specific experience or training? Eg, coping with the demands of life in America, a very different challenge to what was faced in India, where Osho ‘knew the ropes’ very well.
There seem to be limits on intelligence, even of the enlightened sort.
I doubt Satchit comes from a Catholic background. His background is more rooted in having read a few Osho books and spiritual books. Everything he says, more or less, sounds like he is parroting something he has read, and mistakenly believes he actually knows what he is talking about, which, of course. he does not.
His biggest crime is that he is a bit stupid. Most of the time he is either shooting in the dark, hoping he strikes the lost chord, or simply guessing with the idea in mind that he might just guess the right answer. He is definitely not an existentialist because nothing he says sounds like it is based in actual experience.
Shantam used to rattle on about people hiding their identities on SN. Satchit is one of those because he reveals so little about who he actually is, other than being the class dunce.
Loco, do you really think you can impress
me with your little provocations?
Now you even try parroting the parrot.
This is really far out!
Things are simple, you reveal what you want to reveal.
I reveal what I want to reveal.
Or is this too difficult for your dumb mind?
Satchit, if I wished to impress anything upon you it would be that you would be more interesting if you tried speaking from your own life, instead of repeating stuff you have read in books.
As an example, instead of speaking about egolessness in the abstract, why not share the last time when you actually experienced it? If in fact you have. For all I know it all might be running in your imagination.
Lokesh, you are the better storyteller than me.
And you live an excited life on your hippy-island.
My life is very ordinary.
Reading Osho books is for me long time gone.
I just remembered from your morning-blah-blah that you mentioned you were also standing on the brink to egolessness once.
Satchit, although your response is a bit of a sad one, at least it sounds real, human. Osho was big on authenticity, and this is my biggest criticism of what you write on SN. It is not genuine. It is copied.
I may well be a better storyteller than you, but that is no reason to compare yourself to me. Everyone has a story to tell, from the Queen of England to the Count of Hell. You don’t write your story. You write other people’s. I suspect you do this because you don’t believe your story is worthwhile telling. You see your life as boring in comparison to mine, if I am to believe what you are saying and you are not just being sarcastic. Some would also describe my life as boring, although I rarely suffer from boredom and it has nothing to do with where I live. ‘Hippy Island’ is tabloid nonsense and has nothing to do with my life. I live very quietly and do not see a lot of people. One of the reasons I write on SN.
Gurdjieff once said that if a man can do just one thing well, even if that is just knowing how to brew a decent cup of coffee, then he can have a conversation with that man. If that is good enough for Mr G, it is good enough for me.
I stand on the brink of egolessness quite a lot, and I don’t just stand there, I go for it. I had a bash at it today and cried in the midst of a beautiful revelation, while listening to The Beatles’ incomparable ‘Within You and Without You’. Primal Scream’s ‘Moving on Up’ sounded great, also. I see how small I really am quite often, a complete fucking nobody, and I take sanctuary in that experiencing. Today, believe it or not, I thought of you and saw your plight, when I was out in no mind’s land, hence my long response.
I would much rather hear about your boring life than all that spiritual bunk you currently write on SN. All you are succeeding in there is making yourself look stupid, and I am quite certain you are not stupid, that there is a real you that could do with sharing. There are some intelligent people writing on SN. Instead of trying to impress them with all that enlightened shite you write, why not actually share something personal about yourself? I am certain you might well be in for a pleasant surprise if you do and the reflections you receive might actually help you learn something new. Never a bad thing. Good luck with that, if you have the guts to go for it.
Just doing something without thinking left and right and expecting something out of it can imo also be quite an egoless action:
Making spaghetti for the 9 year-old to come home from school.
Taking out the pots, putting them on the stove, adding water and letting it boil. Tomato sauce needs some spices – ok. Stirring the spaghetti a few more minutes.
Ring, ring – the girl is here, “How was it at school?” – “Ok, nothing special.” – “You like your spaghetti now?” – “Yeesss!”…
AQnd so on.
No exciting energy there, just being with it – hands carrying plate and fork and spoon. Ok.
Isn’t this what we have gone “through the mess of making gutsy efforts” for? I appreciate Lokesh’s accounts of enjoyment and remember the majestic sunset with the clouds he described before while just being with…Gorgeous, isn’t it?
I also learned about another Beatles song: ‘Within You, Without You’…
I also appreciate Satchit’s expressions. He is pointing again and again to the non-divisive realm.
Why would someone write something, if it weren’t in his/her realm of experience? That would be cheating oneself, imo.
Telling our stories imo does not separate us from one another. As Lokesh is saying, it makes us human.
Sympathetic joy – that comes later than loving kindness and even compassion….
Tack. Enjoy the ‘Hygge’ (Danish for feeling-good..).
Look at the guys in the video – relaxed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5k-OE0-fWs
‘Ain’t She Sweet’ – McCartney & Harrison on ukulele + Ringo (1994)
Thank you for your long response, Lokesh.
One reason that I write short stuff is certainly because I am not a native speaker.
All these idioms, slang expressions, takes too much effort to always check the dictionairy.
I admit that the thing with the hippy-island was a bit ironic.
We are not so much different, I have also not so much contact with people. So writing here
on SN is a kind of hobby.
I don’t want to impress you or others here, but I like to speculate, also about spiritual things, but for me it is still playful. Because what do we really know?
Lately you said you don’t write when you are angry. But for me you come through very aggressive sometimes, that one should function your way, your will shall be done.
How often did you say that I am stupid?
But I can imagine in real life we would like each other.
Take care.
As far as I understand – after reading comments regarding sexual acts with children and what should have been done about it – the role Bhagwan/Osho wanted to play was not one of a manager of commune affairs.
But rather that he wanted to (only) share his wisdom/inside/energy/enlightenment as it was/is.
And let the commune deal with whatever comes up in its own capacity.
He may have failed in choosing the suitable person(s) from the start and possibly failed in the right timing for coming out of silence during an awful period.
But the ‘parts’ of the commune who did not interfere and speak up towards the (criminal) bigmouth hubris ‘nonsense’ happening in public (and in secret, too) IMO also failed massively. And possibly even more so as so many are/were highly educated, upper-class and partly even rich people. Or (highly) educated people with a background of non-violence, i.e. love, peace and happiness of the 60s era and Gandhi style ‘ahimsa – non-violent action’, refusal of military service etc.
Lokesh already commented on these failures in a previous comment to which I broadly agree.
Yes, it was a failure of all of those in charge. But it’s also a problem when you have a new town being created and an inexperienced police force who sometimes turn a blind eye towards the law of the land. Sex with minors is illegal in many countries, and it’s the sheriff’s bailiwick to enforce that.
But the thing is, Osho was ultimately responsible, it was his commune, built after his vision. I don’t think you can absolve him completely because he delegated some of that responsibility. It was clear that if he said something should be done one way, no one would argue.
Osho`s late night chakra inspection sessions and the abuse allegations have to be separated to some degree, at least for the fact that the latter stories clearly cross boundaries of legality that the former most likely do not.
It could be that they are linked in the sense of blind-eye-turning, somnambulant acceptance of dubious worldviews, some promulgated by Osho, and other more seedy parts of the zeitgeist. Remember that in the 1970s (it seems unbelievable these days) in the let-it-all-hang-out spirit of the times, groups that advocated paedophilia often shared platforms with feminists, gay activists and other advocates of sexual liberation, playing to be `oppressed`. Sounds like there was a bit of that kind of extreme and twisted `liberation` ethos floating around in the Osho scene.
I know all this stuff is a bit past and maybe a bit painful. (Last night I dreamed I was dissecting a cadaver that to my horror turned out to be a family member, which later morphed into my own left foot. Ouch!). But anyway, another angle on this story has occurred to me…
It seems that Erin/Maitri, after Osho died, joined the satsang scene (Klaus posted a link of her involvement as some kind of admin in Gangaji`s org.). She appears to have spent a few decades involved.
All the inner search and journey in the company of these so-called awakened ones for decades and she did not realise what had happened to her with Osho? Doesn`t this represent a glitch in her self-awareness and reflect somewhat badly on the efficacy of these scenes for coming to `know oneself?” at a most basic level?
Maybe the explanation could be that all these satsangy post-Papaji awakened ones scenes are also plagued with the same kind of authoritarian cultish beliefs and ethos that Erin presents as having got her into this problem in the first place? I wonder how she feels about all that now.
NP @28 May, 8.10h
If I have caught the details correctly Osho was invited to the commune. And he accepted the invitation under the precondition of being able to do things 100% in his way, to have free reign of how the work will be done.
He explicitly stated that this ‘was not his commune’, he rather was a guest of the commune.
So the participants should imv not push away authority on the single highest person. But check their own doing or not doing in how things ‘played out’.
Yeah, Frank, good points.
I remember Sheela confronting Osho on a live TV interview saying, more or less, “Come on, tell them the truth. Tell them you are an ordinary man.”
As it has turned out, nobody at the time suspected how ordinary Osho actually was. Sheela must have known about the chakra sessions, for sure. But, as far as I know, she never said too much about it.
I can remember on SN getting flak from people like Arpana for telling the story about Mexican Rupesh delivering heavy canisters of laughing gas to Osho’s house…dozens of them.
Closer to home, all this scandal made me reflect on my relationship with Osho. I still think he was a great man. Of course, he never asked me for a blow job. Probably because he knew I would say no. I was always a bit unsurrendered.
I think we were incredibly fortunate to come across him, for many reasons, both hugely positive ones and, strangely enough, including having to have any over-romantic, over-idealistic illusions about him or about the nature of enlightenment, or about large-scale communes, quashed, before our very eyes, in our own life experience.
But, of course, others would challenge this view, so maybe I’d better apply that interpretation to myself and let others speak for themselves.
As it’s Saturday night, here’s something to raise spirits for celebration, just sheer rock’n'roll fun from a few of the greats…(n.b: not the first bit)…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_T8mRnqCwE
Satyadeva
28 May, 2022 at 6:14 pm
Well spoken.
This is fitting me and it is certainly alright with me, too!
Thanks, Osho.
Thanks, SannyasNews.
DingDongDang.
““Come on, tell them the truth. Tell them you are an ordinary man.”
As it has turned out, nobody at the time suspected how ordinary Osho actually was.”
One should be aware that the word ‘ordinary ‘can be used in two different ways.
One in a comparing context, for example:
“He is not special, he is ordinary like us.”
Otherwise as a state of being: “I am the King of the World and ordinary.”
Satchit, I think ‘ordinary’ here is probably more like ‘ordinary’ as in “likes getting blasted on hippy crack and has an `eye for the ladies`.”
SD, yes he certainly splashed an extremely intricate and involved 3D, maybe 4D Rorschach test thingy that still seems to pull in the viewers today!
MOD:
https://www.google.com/search?q=rorschach+test+meaning&oq=&aqs=chrome.7.35i39i362l4j46i39i199i291i362j35i39i362l2j69i59i450.1302714054j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Ordinary…normal. Like not above it all as Osho claimed. Like having desires like any normal man.
He claimed a lot.
Also that enlightenment is the most ordinary thing.
Eat when you are hungry. Sleep when you are sleepy.
Was he really ordinary though? I do not want to second guess my own first opinion at the time we met, that he was remarkably clear and had a very large presence.
But recent events make clear that he did in fact have an ordinary man’s desires, and was not inclined to deny himself.
Is it not very ordinary to have desires?
People love the idea of superhumans with superhuman abilities. It`s a classic trope of storytelling. Thousands of years before Superman, Spiderman and Batman there was Hanuman.
Also, some people go to enormous lengths to do superhuman stuff. It`s mainstream now with Wim Hof and his ice exploits that are a kind of a rerun of the old Tibetan siddhis. All that crazy Kungfu Iron Testicle/head stuff in China where they train up so they can be kicked hard in the balls or whacked over the head with an iron bar and shrug it off, or in India with one arm in the air for years etc. etc.
The physical prowess blends with psychic stuff like in ‘Autobiography of a Yogi’ with its breatharians, guys that live for centuries, space travellers, appearing in 2 places at the same time, dying at will etc. and on to Nostradamus. People love it. Supply and demand. If Jesus hadn`t `come back from the dead` we probably would never have heard of him.
The idea of a dude that has got to a place where he is untroubled by regular human occurrences like desire, death and being completely unaffected by the thinking process and so on is always going to be an attractive story as everyone suffers from these alike.
Well, there is ordinariness and ordinariness. Most people have 5-15 sexual partners, two or three long relationships and a bunch of kids.
Osho by all reports had hundreds of sexual partners and some perhaps as young as 15, if what I am hearing about the Facebook allegations is accurate. Is that ordinary or natural?
Admittedly the age of consent in India was 16 from 1940 onwards (only changing in 2012 to 18).
Haha!
I have another two of the lovely George Harrison songs fitting the discussion…just a little bit:
“We welcome you to Crackerbox Palace”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ac34Khe-fc
and
“Cheer Down”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI4xzwvaTWU
Easy is right.
@Nityaprem
Really, 100s? Is that right?
I`m not up to speed with the Facebook allegations.
How did he keep that quiet?
All those women kept quiet until now? And along the way, however secretive it was, there must have been some who saw or heard what was going on?
NP,
Probably doing the
‘Natural Thing’
(Steve Gibbons Band)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BoFrXlZjE
was the way he went…
“Far as I can see, just doing what comes naturally has gotta be the only natural thing to do
But they still try to analyse it, moralize it, computerize it
They even try to civilize it, too…
Don’t let’s loo=se that natural thing – that’s what makes the birdies sing.
That’s what keeps the jockey on his horse….”
Full lyrics here:
https://genius.com/Steve-gibbons-band-natural-thing-lyrics
But the song was maybe meant in a totally different context. Quite certainly.
@frank
I was merely quoting Shanti when I said “hundreds”, what Osho actually said in 1985 in ‘The Last Testament’ was that “perhaps no other man has loved so many women” when asked whether he was celibate.
@Nityprem.
Oh, I was responding to your saying:
“Osho, by all reports, had hundreds of sexual partners and some perhaps as young as 15, if what I am hearing about the Facebook allegations is accurate.”
Also, I think that wheeling out those quotes from Osho`s meetings with the Press in 1985 as proof of anything doesn`t prove much either way. The journalist went on to ask him how he chose his sexual partners and he said “travelling on a train, I meet a stranger, I don`t ever ask the name of the woman because we may never meet again….”
He hadn`t been on a train for decades! Sounds like it was fudging really. Admitting it, but making it sound jokey and not quite real at the same time.
@ NP
Re “hundreds of sexual partners”…
I guess 90% happened while dreaming.
The enlightened man doesn`t dream!
(An assertion that, these days, could be tested very easily in a sleep lab).
No, but the females dreamt of the intercourse.
At the same time, it could be true, the “hundreds” quote. There are reports going back to Bombay, pre-Poona1, of him sleeping with disciples.
And what?
And can also be fake reports.
The point is not, did he or did he not?
The point is the judgement that it is a bad thing to sleep with disciples.
The legal age of consent in India was 16 in the 1970s. But in reality, the majority of marriages were taking place well before that and child marriage was still very common. Even today, apparently over 47 per cent of Indian women are married under the age of consent, which is now 18. Osho’s mother was married at age 7.
Good post, Shanti.
Signed,
Jamal Savnil, Rafia Harish and Gafur Glitter
Swami Bhorat says:
“Perfectly correct, Garima!
Certainly, life is meaningless and all stories are simply illusions of the mind which is nothing but the mind!
So come quickly to Bungabungalore ashram and get your laughing gear round the illusionary appearance in duality that is sticking out from under my robe! And imbibe deeply of the emanations from the enlightened lingam which is designed in compassionate emptiness to guide you along your path! And afterwards, remember, it`s just a story. So no need to store it in your memory….”
Haha, funny, Frank, who would you be without your alter ego swami Bhorat to rub it in…?
Perfectly correct, Garima!
@garima
Swami Bhorat as a parody is coming dangerously close to being a true portrait these days…He is obviously becoming a respected member of the community.
Nityaprem,as long as it’s all virtual we can laugh about it…so why can’t we/I not laugh about Osho, he has also become totally virtual, if he wasn’t already when having a body….
@Nityaprem
I think you are are right.
The spiritual scene gets close to un-parody-able.
“Existence is simply the play of a gender-fluid, non-binary, polymorphously perverse, divine energy larping around and working out its kinky karma whilst pretending to be us.”
–Swami Bhorat.
No, Garima, we are not our story.
We are the creator of our story.
Everybody paints his/her Osho/Maitri picture.
One paints with the heart, the other with the mind.
They never meet.
“Everybody paints his/her Osho/Maitri picture.
One paints with the heart, the other with the mind.
They never meet.”
The unconscious irony of this statement is that these choices can arguably be applied either way, not only your point of view, Satchit, but its reverse:
Sympathetic feeling for Erin (Maitri) from the heart, while the mind gets busy with concocting a mental justification for actions that might otherwise undermine its faith – and calls it ‘heartfelt spirituality’, ‘being in tune with the Master’, or a similar superior-sounding label.
While in all probability failing to realise or even consider that much of its preferred interpretation might well arises from a need for certainty, security, something or someone to believe in absolutely.
As a friend of mine has said, “there’s more utter bullshit spoken and claimed in the name of ‘spirituality’ than any other topic.”
SD, this is again your painting.
You put your colours (ideas plus arguments plus projections) on my statements.
Fine, one can do it. But I will neither react nor defend. Yahoo!
Satchit,
As long as it is the One who paints, we don’t have to worry, do we?
“As long as it is the One who paints, we don’t have to worry, do we?”
What on earth does this mean, Garima, in your own experience, not merely in theoretical terms?
Sounds like painting by numbers. You have to start with One.
Satyadeva, it was meant for Satchit…but yes, as long as I think I do the painting, or whatever, there is worry, and no flow.
That’s quite an interesting, extensive explanation, Frank. Yes, it’s probably quite difficult for a man to get into the skin of a woman, even in imagination.
You might scoff or laugh at this, but if I don’t understand someone’s behaviour I often do role play with gestalt, or voice dialogue, and it’s quite surprising usually what comes up, plus it helps to have more acceptance and compassion for that person.
Thanks for the response, Lokesh. Well, it’s also a good thing that I feel something I wrote is torn to shreds, to the extent I feel upset about it, to that extent I’m still identified. And that’s for me to look at…And after all, it’s only exchanging words, stories, by nobodies. I don’t know you, you don’t know me, that’s clear from your interpretation. It’s all virtual…and yet we pretend to know each other, because we were so-called sannyasins in a distant past….
So it’s obvious I’m writing to myself here, since that is the only person I know….Howdy, Garima…talking to yourself again?
@Garima
Writing stuff down is worthwhile and fun in itself. If anyone who has the vaguest interest or idea what you`re on about reads it, it`s a bonus.
@Garima
Sometimes it is fun though, to talk to sannyasins who you do not know. It’s like taking half of a story about yourself, putting it into the Universal Semi-Random Story Generator ™ and watching an answer come rolling out, in all its infinitely-variable, colour-coded glory.
I have met four people that I got to know through commenting on SN. I liked all of them. The big surprise was Shantam. He wrote so much nonsense on SN, including racist shit about the white skins. He turned out to be a sweet guy, loving father with a very smart and charming son, who I also liked. Shantam had tears in his eyes when we hugged and said adios on Ibiza some years back.
As for getting upset by other writers’ comments – forget it. A non-serious approach is the way to go on the streets of SN. I don’t think anyone really means to hurt anyone else on here. Take it with a pinch of curry powder.
I hear people like Satchit using words like ‘emptiness’, ‘nothingness’, ‘egoless’ etc., which in turn makes me think that if they really entered an egoless space they would in all probability shit their pants. Talk is cheap and so are words. These states require guts to go for them, not just a load of blah, blah, blah.
Very true, Lokesh. Real spiritual exploration confronts you with a load of difficult questions: What if you lose something essential? What if you end up crippling your spiritual self? The stakes become a lot higher, and to really get involved requires courage.
I think you guys are being too hard on Satchit here.
I`m sure that he must have had some pretty deep and devastating experiences of emptiness in his life.
Like when FC Bayern lost to that mickey mouse Spanish team in the Cup. Not a shot on target, a bit like his posts on SN. His ego must have been knocked sideways. Also he is clearly no stranger to emptiness when it comes to bottles of Alzheimer Pils.
Frank, your compassion knows no bounds.
I know that it requires guts, Lokesh.
And I know that you did not have these guts.
Otherwise you would have been enlightened long ago, bro.
PS:
I suggest you reread my text.
I did not pretend being enlightened.
I just wanted to add this quote from Osho…
“Q: Are you celibate?
A: No, why should I be? I am just natural, why should I be unnatural? If you want to meet celibates you go to a Catholic monastery, and you will meet celibates doing nothing but masturbating. I don’t see that anybody can be naturally celibate, he is bound to become a pervert in some way or other.
I am a simple, natural man, I follow my natural instincts in every way. I have loved many women – perhaps no man may have loved so many women. In the beginning I used to keep count; then I dropped it because what was the point?”
(Osho, ‘The Last Testament’)
If that is so, where is the natural instinct towards loyalty, to take care, to form a partnership, to reciprocate, to love deeply? In Osho’s approach to free love as described in Erin Robbins’s letter I see something that’s shorn of all the natural instincts towards parenthood. It seems aimed at satisfying lust, if anything.
Hi, Satchit,
Thanks for your sincere response. For me it is one of the best comments you have posted on SN because it gives a sense of who is behind the words.
Just for the record I am not aggressive in real life. My bark is a lot worse than my bite. I grew up in Fifties Glasgow…a very tough place to grow up. You had to stand up for yourself or be a good runner in the face of the aggression on the streets. I had to do a lot of encounter therapy to overcome some of the nego programmes I picked up in my youth. What a relief to drop them.
I still visit Glasgow once in a while and occasionally look up some old friends. They are very normal people, who like to discuss football and politics, neither of which I am interested in. What I appreciate about most Glaswegians is their ability to talk straight, call a spade a spade. If they think you are getting too big a head about something they will pull your leg about it…hard. So I come from such a background. That is why Frank jokingly calls me a Scottish skinhead. I reality I would not hurt a fly.
I have said you are stupid many times. Not because you are stupid, but because you post a lot of stupid comments about supreme spiritual states that I doubt have anything to do with who you are in real life. Most of the regulars will not be taken in by that. Maybe you are fooling yourself. I do not know.
Whatever the case may be, I find such lofty spiritual jargon uninspiring. Everyday life is the path and I enjoy to read comments relating to everyday life, not holy Joe talk about emptiness, nothingness, egolessness etc. Yes, those states exist, but if you are in those spaces there is nothing much to say other than ‘wow!’ That is why Lao Tzu said that he who speaks does not know.
Of course, in real life we would like each other. I tend to like most people I meet. Not because they are all great people, but because I find that liking people makes my life easier. Ha ha! Easy is right.
Ooh, is there a bit of a Satchit-Lokesh reconciliation bromance brewing?
I say, NP, hold your horses. There is no bromance going on. A simple turning of a page and perhaps a new, more authentic chapter. Life is full of surprises. By Jove!
Satchit says, “And can also be fake reports.”
That is highly unlikely. There are too many diverse reports and they correspond with what others say.
Satchit continues, “The point is not, did he or did he not?” Quite correct because it is by now obvious he did.
Satchit concludes, “The point is the judgement that it is a bad thing to sleep with disciples.” This is not really the point because all of the regulars have shared their opinions about this matter. Ultimately it is a case of an individual’s opinion. You believe it is wrong, right or you do not really care. That is not the real point. The real point is that the topic has by this time been flogged to death. Nothing more of any worth can be said on the matter. It’s time to move on to more fertile ground. And that is the real point.
SN is getting bogged down by a lack of new articles. Day in day out it is running over the same topic. That is boring. Time for a new topic. Please.
The implications of all these stories aren`t really about one man`s right to have a sex life. What comes out is a whirlpool of lies and a stunning culture of silence, deception and cover-up in multiple areas of the whole scene. One way or another this has affected everyone`s life who was involved in ways that they weren`t fully aware because they`ve been drip-fed shit all along.
To have a new topic maybe some choices might have to be made.
Sample choices:
I don`t see any shit.
Actually the shit is divine shit so it smells of roses.
Get a shovel.
I`ve had enough shit, get me outa here.
There is another one:
I don’t see any shit because I’m not on Facebook.
I can imagine what crazy pile of chickens is going on there.
For some time I have been thinking that all spiritual movements are beneficial, as long as you don’t get bogged down. Osho provided lots of short examinations of spiritual material, with accompanying anecdotes, jokes and guided meditations. It’s still good stuff, not shit…
All paths go up the mountain.
Why go up a mountain, though?
Just recently there was a news item that Snowdon, the highest mountain in England and Wales, is so popular with people who want to say they`ve been to the top, that the path itself is a health hazard due to so many people stopping to have a shit along the way.
Even worse is the summit of Everest which these days can get so crowded that there is a queue. Not only is the whole route a public toilet that has remained uncleaned for decades, but there are dead bodies strewn around that in their haste to get to the top (and do a selfie) the climbers have to step over the corpses. There`s so much debris left, climbing gear etc. that it`s known a the “world`s largest trashcan.”
Maybe it’s a useful metaphor/warning for the spiritual mountain-climbers!
Yes, if one lives in a flat country one dreams about “all paths go up the mountain.”
And certainly Snowdon is also very high for Englishmen.
These mountains are figurative mountains…the inner Mount Everest…isn’t it?
Outer mountains are for the restless and ambitious people as a hobby. Or for confirmation of their strength and ability.
It’s a metaphor for the spiritual goal…some people would call it enlightenment, others union with God.
Here’s where ‘The Petersens’ like to return to:
“Ozark Mountain Home” – The Petersens Original (LIVE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SFHYJKoLwk
Coming home.
Just look at ‘OshoNews’:
There is a new article on the generous and empathic Osho who sent USD 10.000 + to a red Indian Chief so that the poor family could start a poultry farm and get out of poverty.
That is good news.
More, please.
Satchit provides an evasive and unsatisfactory answer to my question as to what he actually means by referring to being a hollow bamboo. This is fairly typical of him and suggests he is more comfortable with spiritual terminology than he is with actually experiencing what the terms symbolize. No surprises there. My impression is that he hasn’t the faintest idea what he is talking about.
The last time I became a hollow bamboo took place three years ago. Although since then I have had several such experiencings, but not quite as total. I was contacted by a wandering shaman in connection with him having read my books several times and expressing his wish to meet me in person. Since that time we have become very good friends, a development that I am very happy about.
Without going into it overmuch, I will give a short, partial description of what happened during our second meeting, by a campfire in the woods. We both took a powerful entheogen, a psychoactive, hallucinogenic preparation derived from plants from Brazil and used in religious, spiritual, or ritualistic contexts.
The substance’s effects were almost instantaneous and, at first, overwhelming, although in a benign way. There was not much space for experiencing fear. From one moment to the next I was in the zone. It felt familiar and visually it was beyond beautiful, beyond words. The experience intensified. It was time to let go completely, a let-go that included letting go of my limited ego-self. My ego, mind, and self dissolved, like bubbles in a spiralling vortex. For about ten minutes my body just sat there in the woods, host to an energy that passed through my corporal frame like a fast-flowing stream composed of light, intelligence and impersonal awareness. There was no ‘me’. Tears streamed from my eyes. I eventually levelled out and saw my body for what it was, a conduit for life to experience the wonders and mystery of pure existence.
I have had quite a few such experiences in my life. Experiencing is a more apt word because there is not actually anyone there to experience. The cause of this has had various forms: psychedelics, sitting with a master, zazen or intense meditation practices, and in some instances just life doing its thing in an unexpected, surprising and revelatory way.
In the greater scheme of life such experiencing can bring a sense of feeling and truly understanding that there is no need to sweat life’s bigger issues, that everything will work out fine, that the only problem in life is really that you are identified with a spurious limited ego-self. If you can escape from the idea of ‘me’, life is perfect. All of life’s problems stem from the notion that we exist as separate from life.
All thumbs up!
Even if there is suffering there is no ‘me’ suffering.
Even if there is tremendous bliss happening there is no ‘me’ to it.
That is being total. One of his teachings….
Oh. Lokesh, I said that you are a good storyteller.
But you should not attack me again, even if it is an old habit of yours. I thought we are friends now!
But you know, substances are substances.
If it helps you to find the truth, it’s okay.
Fact is, if one is not identified as the ego-self, then there is only one Self. You are me. I am you.
Satchit, are you paranoid? Nobody is attacking you. This is a blog and I find a lot of what you write on SN highly suspect and flakey. Therefore I question what you write.
You conclude with the following: “Fact is, if one is not identified as the ego-self, then there is only one Self. You are me. I am you.”
This might be a fact but I very much doubt it is a fact in your life. Apart from being a cliche, which does not mean it is not true, I think you are kidding yourself, although I do not think any of the other regulars will be taken in by your words. Get real, man.
It’s not your business what other regulars take in or not, Lokesh.
I like it if things are a bit flakey.
Seems for you it must always be clear-cut?
Certainly you can question me and have your opinion about me.
It’s part of the game!
We can all repeat details of other people’s realisations, and thus imagine we ‘know’ about such profundities, but what about the stuff inside that prevents us from experiencing these depths?
Liking things being “a bit flakey” might be entertaining, but it’s only mental escapism, a consolation without any genuine substance to it, a bit like a poor person imagining what it’s like to be extremely wealthy, while being unable or unwilling to do anything towards making that a reality.
In some cases it could even feed a tendency towards some of that “stuff inside”, self-deception or laziness, which I’m certain you’d want to avoid at all costs, Satchit.
Yes, SD,
Reminds me of this old Sannyas saying: “A sannyasin is not against anything.”
So certainly I am not against laziness or self-deception.
I celebrate myself.
Ok, Satchit, so I’ll add complacency to the two aforementioned impediments.
I think you might be confusing ‘celebration’ with self-indulgence, Satchit. Perhaps nothing to be over-pleased about as what else but ‘self’ is said to be the main barrier to realising ‘the Beyond’ (to use your terminology) and therefore has to ‘die’, one way or another? That’s if you’re serious about (ie committed to) what you’ve supposedly signed up for when taking Sannyas…
Now are you going to knee-jerk, “Oh, but seriousness is a disease – Osho says so!”? If so, then I suggest you replace “a disease” with ‘inconvenient’- leaving Osho out of what’s clearly your personal preference.
SD, if I think about it then you, Loco and Frank are also very self-indulgent.
Ah, thinking…often the key to opening the door to self-deception, especially when emotionally disturbed….
Maybe we should start talking about you here, SD.
Seems you are good in criticising others, but something positive you hide.
I have never heard you saying such dirty words like “I celebrate myself” here.
That’s because I’m a miserable old git and miserable old gits ‘celebrate’ by keeping their ‘celebrations of themselves’ private, Satchit.
However, since it’s Jubilee Weekend here in the UK, I’ll break the habit of a lifetime by sharing that for several days I’ve had a lovely, debilitating cold on top of a chronically constricted neck and upper spine (and my osteopath’s away), so I’m feeling particularly blessed. My partner’s simply over the moon as well – it’s a win-win situation, Swami!
Anyway, thanks for illuminating my morning with your encouraging words.
“And the palace stays the same
Only the guards ever change
So lay me down….’
Levellers – ‘No change’ (1990)
https://youtu.be/KIzNVnvehtw
SD supplies a good metaphor for Satchit’s talking the talk but not walking the walk: “Like a poor person imagining what it’s like to be extremely wealthy, while being unable or unwilling to do anything towards making that a reality.”
I doubt Satchit is able to take on board such ideas, content to inhabit his flakey world. Can only wish him luck in his reaching a point where the realization comes to him that he is not being attacked but rather being offered help in opening up to the possibility that he has adopted a very limited worldview.
SD`s metaphor for Satchit is good and probably not so dissimilar to mine:
“A guy standing with only heavily brown-stained (front and back) underpants on, crap dribbling down both legs, pontificating about the importance of hygiene and boasting about his dress-sense.”
On a more serious point, I am writing to complain about the calibre of village idiots on Sannyas News these days.
Replacing Shantam (Village Idiot Punjab) with Satchit (Village Idiot Bavaria) has led to a regrettable drop in standards. Shantam s idiocy was much more rounded and complete, often humorous albeit accidental or inadvertent and many of his ejaculations proved worthy inclusions in the Bhorat Bible. By contrast, Satchit`s insipid offerings would barely make it into a new age primary school primer for spiritually retarded cretins with less than half their brain still functioning.
New movie today:
‘Frank, the Return of the Class Clown’.
Sorry, Satchit, I have to agree with Don Frank. Even in the role of village idiot you are pretty naff. A square to boot. You are also not so cool as you imagine yourself to be. I wonder why you put yourself in the stocks and set yourself up to be pelted with rotten eggs. Might damage your self-esteem and hopefully your conceit.
Loco, the game is boring. And it is cowardly too by you.
Three against one, must be the new English fair play!
Fair-play is simply a concept in the mind. As you said, “Existence is not always nice.”
If one part of Existence gangs up on another part it is simply a divine leela, simply the hollow bamboo expressing itself spontaneously.
Relax, let go and enjoy. It is only a problem if you have an ego or a mind.
Remember, the Master`s disciples hold your head down the toilet and then flush because they love you.
@Satchit
Trying to suggest/assert that someone who supplies revealing information about gurus (or anyone in a position of power) shows a psychological problem/deficit is a very common and well-documented response amongst those who feel threatened by such revelations.
It is no surprise that, as usual, true to form, you are being so utterly predictable.
Don’t worry, Loco, my worldview is perfectly fine.
I don’t need drugs to improve it like you.
Nice story, Lokesh. I’ve always avoided drugs and rarely even drink alcohol, but this is the kind of thing that makes me very curious about psychedelics. Perhaps if the right opportunity presents itself I will try them out.
Hi NP, I am a pretty sober man myself. I rarely drink alcohol, don’t smokey the dopey etc. But every once in a tartan moon I like to take a peek behind the veil of illusion.
If you are ever down this way, look me up and we could perhaps look up into the endless sky together.
“…into the endless sky….”
There is a song for this, too:
The lovely Master of Strings David Lindley playing
‘The Vast Indifference of Heaven’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQxrHqKFFqc
As composed by the late Warren Zevon who died of cancer and was no sannyasin.
Beautiful song, beautifully played…imo.
You live on Ibiza, right? I will keep it in mind if I ever head out that way….
Cool, NP.
If our relationship as sannyasins with Osho was one of the heart, to what extent is that damaged by what Osho showed in his treatment of Erin? Is there still trust? Would you feel the same if you were a woman?
If I were to put myself in Erin’s shoes, I would also be pretty outraged if I was going to have a moment of clarity and realised what she realised. I find it an entirely understandable reaction.
Here’s another tough question:
Do you think Osho had the best interests of his sannyasins at heart? He once said the relationship his sannyasins had to him was entirely one-sided, it exists on our side but not on his, or something very close to that.
I wonder if Osho ever came across the trend of “shadow work”. I suspect it is too recent an insight but it is quite useful, especially for people in positions of power.
@NP
Relationships are only possible if there are egos.
If ego is gone like in Osho’s case, you can relate to Him, but He not to you.
Lol
I think this needs explaining further, Satchit, so that we can understand exactly what you mean. As it stands, you’ve indicated that Osho suffered from a ‘personality disorder’! Try writing about this as if your reader has little or no prior idea of ‘enlightenment’ etc.
Oops, you have ideas, SD, explaining this…
Then they jump on me again, that I have no idea what I’m talking about, that I’m a parrot and all those dirty things…
Have to go for a walk with my dog, later I give it a try.
Maybe consult the dog – it doesn’t have an ego either, does it, or not much of one?!
To avoid some misunderstanding, SD, it was Osho who said from his side no relationship is possible.
Yes, and I asked the dog (it’s a she) and she said that they shall find out for themselves why it is the case. Because weather is fine, sun is shining, no time for hassle today.
So right now no explanation available.
God Save the Queen!
“…it was Osho who said from his side no relationship is possible.”
But did he explain why, Satchit? That’s the point of this enquiry. And perhaps Erin and any other women similarly afflicted might also want to know this.
As far as I remember he didn’t say why.
First step would be to find the right quote.
Could be that I share then my thoughts, if somebody is interested.
Anyway, it’s a difficult area.
I think that’s a guru-speak excuse, Satchit. A relationship largely consists of an agreement not to act as as abusive piece o’ human junk, and anyone can partake.
Yes, I knew that you would think this.
In Christianity they have the doubting Thomas, seems you became now the doubting Nitya.
You look through your window of your ego.
If he would not be beyond ego, he would not attract this many people.
Even people like Lokesh felt at home with him.
“Even people like Lokesh felt at home with him.”
Wow! Imagine that.
Is Satchit the missing link?
“If he would not be beyond ego, he would not attract this many people.” Not necessarily the case at all, Satchit. Big egos are magnetic for many – look at what happened in your own country in the 1930s, for an extreme example. Or, more pertinently, the vast numbers that crowd around certain current spiritual teachers of (in my view) doubtful credentials.
Also, if he hadn’t appointed the wrong person to be in charge of the Ranch and allowed, even encouraged her to be ultra-confrontational with the US authorities many more would have been attracted.
Egoless or not, mistakes, including catastrophic misjudgments can be made!
But ultimately, isn’t how we view Osho very much, or even totally dependent upon our own inclinations, our particular ‘psycho-spiritual type’ and its needs? Eg, for some, any hint of criticism of their beloved master seems tantamount to ‘sacrilege’, as if their inner world would collapse should they take it on board. For others, not of a ‘bhakti’ persuasion (or, as the former category might claim, ‘less spiritually evolved’) it’s enough that he was/is a supreme inspiration, who gave so much, changing their lives for the better, despite what they perceive as ‘faults’.
Given these (and other) differing tendencies I suggest it’s extremely difficult, even impossible, to reach an ‘objective’ view, so, provided extreme, potentially violent attitudes are avoided, rather than argue interminably it might well be for the best to see and accept both our own and others’ bias as what each individual apparently needs at any given point. After all, as Osho well knew, even lies can be transformative.
Yes, this is true, SD.
Osho may be a fraud and enlightenment may be fake.
This is possible and the opposite too.
The problem with the idea of a fraud or a fake is that it implies that there is an objective and provably genuine item that the fake is imitating.
With coins, notes, artworks, watches this is a relatively simple matter. With humans it doesn`t work so well because what is the criterion with which to prove the genuine item/article? There is no objective agreement on this.
The thing is, even the question of Osho experimenting with his enlightenment I find bizarre. If he was enlightened, all that stuff should just be gone! There definitely shouldn’t be an urge to test his enlightenment to the limits, doing that to me makes no sense at all.
But he was a self-confessed “madman”, NP! Actually, I find it endearing, even something to respect, admire.
NP,
Yes, it seems to follow the logic of a recovering addict having a fix to check that he`s still clean.
Maybe those well-known experts on egolessness and eastern occultism, Satchit and Shanti, could enlighten us on the matter?
Before the ‘experts’ have their say, isn’t this the sort of stuff that other ‘crazy’ or ‘straight’ enlightened have allegedly indulged in, Gurdjieff’s heavy drinking, for instance, or that revered Indian master who took acid thanks to having been given some by Ram Dass (as well as Osho again, with nitrous oxide)?
Others have ‘merely’ allowed the changing circumstances of life to be enough of a challenge to their deepest realisation, eg personal illness, or disease and death of a partner or simply facing an ordinary working life in the world with sometimes decidedly unenlightened co-workers or the public.
Perhaps enlightenment is always going to be tested and Osho, nothing if not a daredevil, supposedly after all those lifetimes of searching, could barely believe he’d ‘arrived’ at last and so had to put himself through further tests to make absolutely sure he was where he was!
Yes, I think NP should finish his Osho-trip and search a Guru who follows his standards.
Because this is how it should be:
The Guru should always follow the standards of the disciple!
A genuine item is not necessarily needed, if I say all Gurus are frauds and enlightenment is bullshit.
Gurus and enlightenment are mental immigrants.
Ramana’s pointer was towards peace. He said, if the presence of a guru makes you feel peaceful inside you should spend time with him.
Nice bit of Shantamese there. You are growing into the role.
@satchit who said, “the guru should always follow the standards of the disciple.”
Surely the standards of the two are something they arrive at together, the disciple by holding to what he searches for, and the guru by expressing what he is. In a way, Osho is my father’s guru, and mine only by accident.
Sounds like some around here have achieved gaslightenment!
To clarify:
Gaslighting is an insidious manipulative tactic that works to distort and erode your sense of reality. It eats away at your ability to trust yourself and inevitably disables you from being able to call out abuse and deception, with the disablement rationalised as a higher insight.
Galightenment is reached when the guru induces this state permanently into the disciple.
Didn’t Osho stress in his later days that his relationship with his people had become like that between “friends”? Which suggests something rather different from Satchit’s (probably earlier) version, implying a certain kind of equality, although that begs the question of a master being an ultimate authority for the true disciple, doesn’t it?
So what exactly did he mean by this?
But he was saying so much stuff.
He also said he had to throw Buddha`s disembodied spirit out of his jacuzzi, he was getting attacked by black magicians who could never be found, and he was turning the gas up to 11 for that extra push off the cliff.
No doubt it was all a device and/or he was just dropping in to see what condition his condition was in, enlightenment-wise.
@SD
I think with this “friends” thing he came because he saw that labelling it Master-disciple did not function in the West.
Also because of the Ranch disaster, a new start was necessary.
I did a little bit of research on ‘relationship guru surrender sex’ and come up with this one:
https://culteducation.com/group/1175-swami-chetanananda/20050-absolute-surrender-may-lead-to-sex-with-guru.html
In this situation it is “Western boy with Western girls”.
The guru says himself that “if you do not like the acts of the guru you are with better you find yourself a guru whose ways you can feel better about.”
Plus this valuable and highly spiritual quote:
“Spiritual growth is about surrender, not about understanding. Whenever that part of you that wants to figure out, or know why, or what for, or so on or so forth, kicks in, kick it out. Kick it out.” (Chetanananda, in an April 21, 1993)
Imv, this also implies that one has to do the work of ‘kicking out the mind’ again and again by oneself indeed. Any teacher is a support. But the overstanding you have to grow yourself.
Can’t buy your path to enlightenment.
I find I now have an almost instant negative attitude towards any westerner who wears Indian-style clothes, with facial markings, uses an Indian name and declares himself a ‘guru’. Which is enhanced if they spout the sort of self-serving nonsense re sex with disciples as this guy Chetanananda comes up with.
And I see in myself a similar but more condescending, even ‘patronising’ attitude towards their “naive”-looking followers/disciples.
But, hey, that’s ok, as I notice it (lol). And I’ve been there!
Swami Bhorat says:
Certainly, negative attitude of baboons like SD is understandable as it is very difficult for western baboons to understand master/disciple relationship!
By knocking female disciples about and raping them, Chetanananda has simply been following wisdom of holy Upanishads and Laws of Manu!
He was humbly devoting himself to holy understanding of ancient wisdom of mighty Bhorat and fulfilling ultimate longing of women, as Swami Shanti has made clear!
Whereas Osho was testing his own enlightenment by puffing gas and conducting midnight strip chakra sessions, Chetanananda was taking experiment to the inevitable next level to see if it was possible for an enlightened one to commit assault and battery, strangulation, deviant sex, aggravated buggery and multiple violent sexual assaults and still retain enlightenment!
The experiment was clearly a resounding success until unconscious disciples grassed him up!
Certainly the path of the disciple is arduous, there is no growth without distress or disturbance, this is Kali Yuga, not a vicar`s tea party!
Unfortunately this advanced occult wisdom is not for the masses and is beyond the comprehension of rational western baboons who are simply stuck in their minds and know nothing of love, divine love or the way of the heart!
These fools do not understand, and sadly, there are very few true disciples and committed devotees such as Satchit, who understand that the unenlightened one cannot judge the enlightened one, so Chetanananda will have to go on long retreat in P Wing!
Yahoo!
Frank,
This Chetanananda Sw. seems to be straight out of Sw. Bhorat’s book!
Perfectly correct, Klaus,
Cheatanananda learned everything he knows from his time in Bungabungalore ashram!
He was an exemplary student and a great master. His work should be studied closely by anyone wishing to understand the true nature of surrender and its results.
Yahoo!
Yeah, one of the results being that one has to clean up the room afterwards and wash the dirty laundry!
Another result is a lot of people losing the faith.
To go beyond sex one solution seems to be to have a lot of it…
But then again, if you cant’t stand the heat (chaos) – stay out of the kitchen. That’s where I am staying, currently in my spiritual matters….
Cheerio.
Then again…
Credit where credit is due:
I am giving Osho full credit for his approaches to and teachings about the various meditations…including his beingness. Masterful, imo.
About takung the heat…each to his/her own.
Under the vast indifference of heaven….
Klaus,
I don`t think that the stories of Cheatanananda and Osho are identical.
Maybe enough similarity to cause some discomfort.
‘Keep what you can and leave the rest’, as Anubodh suggested, holds true, I would say.
Going forward, it`s a question of keeping your wits about you. People who bang on forcefully about you having to drop your mind are a red flag. For example, if Satchit invited you to come round to his place late at night with no panties on to watch a VHS of Gerd Muller’s greatest goals, I would say ooops…er…hang on a minute….
Frank,
Osho and Cheatanananda are certainly not identical…
“Keep the best and forget the rest”….
Thumbs up to Anubodh – and Lokesh who said similar before!
We got a lot of “the best” with Osho – and wherever else we can find it – or it finds us.
Even an enlightened one
has to follow God’s rule!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3Rsj0aIRaI
Klaus,
Agreed.
If you`re going to join a cult, join the best one going!
Job done!http://sannyasnews.org/now/wp-admin/edit-comments.php#comments-form
@SD, who mentioned Osho being a “friend”…
I think Osho saw that people would accept things from a friend that they would not from a master.
The experimentation, the women, the nitrous oxide. It suits more easily to a (rather dodgy) friend.
Osho did come up with some good stuff: the dynamic, the gibberish, some of the things he said.
What about the other meditations, NP, but mostly, what about his state of being, the compassion, the silence…?
This Chetanananda character sounds like the very definition of a bad guru. I guess it takes some experience to recognise that.
About Osho I’m still ambivalent. Some of the things he did were not ok, but I struggle to reconcile the different images of him.
Frank,
In my business life, too, I joined some rather cultish organisations or institutions respectively…
The larger ones called themselves ‘banks’ in public.
In one of the smaller ones, one manager (female!) plotted to kill the owner – got caught beforehand and served time…My mind was in such a haze that I did not even catch that I had been offered a full-time job during the time…One day I simply didn’t return to my workplace….
Cult-like – patriarchal or matriarchal – orgs imo are literally everywhere. Well, almost.
Klaus,
Good point. The world of cultists versus anti-cultists is highly polarized.
Despite the interesting and useful writings of anti-cultists such as in the book ‘The Guru Papers’, it is easy to forget how, in fact, cultish thinking and cultish behaviour is, as you point out, extremely common in a variety of forms within `regular` society and can even be said to be an essential component of the social reality of human beings. The word itself gives the game away, cult and culture share the same etymology. In fact, the usage of `cult` as a byword for group insanity and evil behaviour is a very recent development.
In a nutshell, it`s basically about the natural in-group/out-group human/rival tribe tendency complexified by belief and ideology.
In a way, `cult` is a bit like `hypnosis`. Hypnosis is taken by most people to be a special state/occurence, outside of normal experience. Enquiry has shown that, in fact, it is not possible to separate hypnosis from everyday life. There are everyday trances that everyone experiences, like when driving and being lost in any activity. It`s part and parcel of life. Yes, can be amplified and there are extreme cases, the unusual tends to be focused on, whether it be people drinking urine and savouring it as champagne, or clucking like chickens onstage, or in the case of cults when Jim Jones handing out Kool-Aid and Aum Shrinko gases the Tokyo subway, or salad bars get poisoned, but this obscures the fact of the universality of the experience in other more common forms ie everyday situations, workplaces, schools, the military, sport, politics etc. etc.
“Cults” live in the shadow of our society. Offering a receptacle for projected fears.
Being stripped of individuality, losing control, being branded, systematically abused, induced to commit suicide etc. etc. (it`s no surprise it`s becoming a popular genre in its own right on the likes of Netflix). But the shadow also contains other marginalized stuff that is positive: communitas, acceptance of the value of the inner world, relief from the tyranny of the mind, freedom from the mind-numbing flatlands of the tick-tock world and so on.
So overall, black-and-white definitions will always come up short, and my guess is that `cultists`, whether enlightened or endarkened, will always wander the perilous path of marginal, liminal fringe-dwellers in some way.
There is another cult group today in town:
The Three Lions supporters!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMPmyA1bqU4
I reckon they might end up disappointed, Satchit. England looked jaded the other night, boring frankly. I’d back a resurgent Germany, next choice a draw.
@Satchit.
I can imagine Osho sitting in an Indian picture house in the early 60s watching this one and thinking: “This God needs his own religion. Hold my chai.”
@SD who said “what about his state of being”
I would be tempted to say, perhaps all those things existed and he just experimented, except that Erin’s nightly visits to him were over a long period. That’s not an experiment, that’s satisfying lust, and calling it an experiment is making excuses for yourself, is deceptive.
What about his compassion, his silence? He had the most beautiful energy around him I have ever come across.
@ Frank
Maybe.
I am still wondering
why you don’t play the Guru-Game.
So many girls available…
No interest in the females?
I fear for those England football hooligans in Munchen.
If they run into Madhu, they`ll be coming home alright.
In an air ambulance!
They have occupied already the beer halls in town.
I guess Madhu will prefer watching the situation from a distance.
Frank
at 3:06 pm
“mind-numbing flatlands”
Ah, there is a song for this one, too:
‘Levelland’ – James McMurtry (the Dylan of the American South)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-D824LHti4
or this one by same:
‘Too Long in the Wasteland’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ7NbFAPdcc
One of the comments:
“When I listen to him I want to drop acid and join the revolution.”
Or join the next cult….
Yes, SD, Germany against Italy was also not exciting.
A draw can happen.
“Here’s to you, my sweet England”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moGQ2MCVlA0
Lovely, isn’t it?
@Satchit, You are right about gurus doing it to get girls.
It is statistically demonstrable that the majority of gurus do actually go for their female disciples, ranging from long-term to Whambamthankyoumam Tantra purposes.
Look at the big boys of the 20th century (our era?)…
Gurdjieff, Maharishi, Osho, Yogi Bhajan, Maharaj ji, Krishnamurti, Trungpa, Baba Freelunch, Papaji, Sai Baba (boys), Muktananda, Sri Chinmoy, Barry Long…just for starters.
The 21st century is even more wall-to-wall.
“Drop your ego, drop your pants.”
Works every time.
Papaji, Sri Chinmoy? Those are surprising (not that I know much about these two).
As for Barry Long, it’s unfair to include him in a list of ‘dissemblers’, man/woman relations, including sexual intimacy, being a key part of his teaching, not a ‘side-issue’, something to ‘take-or-leave’, as it were. He spoke and wrote a lot on sex, his ‘Making Love’ cds selling exceptionally well, apparently, always emphasising (as I well recall him looking directly at me when saying at a small-scale public meeting) that “the secret of sex is love.”
In his autobiography he describes in much detail aspects of his relationships with several women, which very few, if any, spiritual teachers have dared to do re their own lives. I’ve found such honesty refreshing re an area of life often publicly bypassed by such people.
And he never tried to conceal the period, fairly late on in his life, when he ‘took on’ four women (not simultaneously, I presume!). However, I’ve heard that there were problems of jealousy among the women so I’m not sure how successful this was in terms of raising their consciousness through making love with a “master of love.” But I don’t doubt his sincerity, even if the ‘experiment’ might not have worked out ideally.
I tend to think that the almost ‘knee-jerk’, knowingly sceptical responses to all talk of such matters (eg, “Oh yeah? Don’t make me laugh, he’s obviously just another one exploiting his position!”) reveals more about corrupt attitudes that we’ve absorbed through various sources that have made even the concept of sex as a means of unselfish, ‘enlightened love-making’ virtually impossible to realistically envisage. That seems to be largely where we’re at at this stage, despite – and maybe in a way, even because of – what’s happened since the 60s.
Klaus,
“Gonna fly as far as I can from Levelland”
A relatable sentiment.
Cheers
Frank
7 June, 2022 at 3:06 pm
A very worthy comment for ‘Best of SannyasNews’ imo.
Our tribal heritage impels us to do this and that…be it in the spiritual realm or in the daily goings-on…Perfectly worded – to be published in a specialist paper!
I will save it in my collection for citation!
Whether professing celibacy or not, most, if not all of these stories were shrouded in secrecy with the gurus attempting to cover-up, commonly using various levels of coercion and threat. If there was no cover-up there was a “transmission of spiritual energy to the fortunate receiver” narrative .
The power imbalance is always a given, accentuated by vast age differences, with maybe Krishnamurti the only exception conducting a secret affair with a woman only 8 years younger than him.
Frank really seems to be an expert in Guru’s sex life.
I wonder what his motivation is.
Is it an inner deficit, a compensation or does he enjoy playing the policeman?
Frank, it’s the whole self-serving nature of the sex-with-disciples story that gets me. I don’t think gurus should be denied a sex life, but this having sex with lots of pretty women thing in secret just doesn’t gel with the nature of enlightenment as it is often described.
SD,
I haven`t been so much passing judgment here as just trying to get the data out. People mostly don`t know it as a result of consistent deliberate efforts by the `faithful` to keep it that way.
Thanks for your info about Barry Long. Each story is different, the link being, as I said, sex with disciples, always much younger.
In some cases that has been framed by participants/victims as abuse, others not.
NP,
Self-serving guys who have transcended the self?
No wonder they end up in hot water.
NP, the problem is that the flip side of belief, faith, is doubt. Such a faith from the mind, however beautiful it seems, can easily turn to doubt or mistrust.
If the relationship with Osho is really of the heart then you would be literally feeling his presence beating in your heart.
Then it becomes more of a mysterious phenomenon and not simply a belief or intellectually-based trust.
I would say that the heart is moderated by the mind. Often when you suffer a reaction such as anger, it is the mind first thinking, “I have been damaged” and that then causes the reaction of anger.
All the emotions are like this. The heart is blind without being triggered by the mind.
The heart/mind thing reminds me of a clip from ‘Four Lions’, a (very) black comedy about some inept suicide bombers, where one of them has doubts just as they are about to do the deed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjMnfbGdlWg
In the orange/red days, it was a simple case of heart = surrender and mind = resistance. You would have thought that after the shenanigans at the Ranch people may have started to question such simplistic notions.
Very much so. Words are not sufficient to define the relationship of heart and mind, it takes a certain maturity of being to get an idea of how these things function.
@Nityaprem: 4/06/22
You put:
“I would say that the heart is moderated by the mind. Often when you suffer a reaction such as anger, it is the mind first thinking, “I have been damaged” and that then causes the reaction of anger.
All the emotions are like this. The heart is blind without being triggered by the mind.”
Nityaprem, it is not an emotion you are familiar with. The connection with Osho, it is more a feeling of bliss.
Deep meditation on its own will produce an inner bliss that is transcendental to any emotional content. This bliss becomes more and more intense as the energy moves higher and higher.
Osho’s own presence is like a pure, ongoing bliss, of a high vibration, that is transcendental to emotions.
Therefore if the connection happens with Osho or any authentic Master, it is felt as pure blissful energy. Then you understand that Osho is a very blissful presence. There is no possibility of Osho not being blissful, or ‘losing’ that blissfulness. And his presence, energy, also has the capability to easily raise the consciousness of whomever that it is connected with. That is the real work of any authentic Master.
His presence is there to help and support others with their awakening.
As you wrote somewhere before, you have never experimented with drugs, therefore expanded consciousness will be harder for you to understand. These mystical experiences with consciousness are not created by the mind or imagination.
The mind certainly plays a role on what it is focused on, but the consciousness itself is transcendental to mind, body, emotions, etc.
I have been thinking about the friends thing in the last days: the guru/teacher and the student/disciple (non)relationship being just ‘like friends’.
For me, this is still difficult. I do not feel up to it. It feels to me like a real challenge. I do not feel that I am fully in ‘my own power’ ….
Two pictures come to my mind:
1. out of this video:
An Invitation to Freedom: Vishrant Meets Osho in 1985
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0mRMzM1hXs
Isn’t Vishrant at that time a relaxed and charming and accomodating guy?
2. A picture of Veeresh sitting next to Osho on a bench outside
- the picture I don’t find anymore
One could feel how shy Veeresh was feeling (in my memory Veeresh lateron described this in his own words like ‘he did not feel worthy to be invited to sit so near to the Master’…).
As with my last teacher, where there have been ‘interesting’ financial things going on:
I could sit with him during a normal working day at his home with visitors coming and going at the same time. This was in Bangladesh.
For an hour or two I felt watchful, observant and very integrated (like an experienced Buddhist monk): watching any feelings, sensations, pictures or intentions appearing and almost instantly passing away again.
Quite some Vipassana momentary awareness.
However, this kind of awareness isn’t always strong with me; thus I am quite fallible to let myself be pushed and pulled around with ‘new ideas’ the teacher is trying to put into my mind.
Therefore, here in my hometown I like to keep the distance. And carry OM. And wait and see if time is on my side.
So much from me.
I guess it was not about friends and friendship.
Because in the world of duality, the friend can easily become the enemy.
It was about friendliness.
The ‘just friends’ talk did change things didn’t it. I came across a quote by Osho about it not so long ago, I was going to use it for a future article on SN but since we are on the topic it seems appropriate:
“The distinction between a disciple and a friend has two sides to it. First, from the side of the master it has happened. I don’t have any disciples anymore. You can relax. From the disciples’ side it is going differently for different people. A few are relaxed — the transformation has taken place. A few are getting to be relaxed; a few are thinking to relax.
A few are unwillingly accepting the idea because to be a disciple was better: the master was responsible. Now the whole responsibility is thrown on you — and nobody wants to be responsible. Everybody wants to get rid of responsibility. There are a few who have not even heard it. They have listened to me, but it has not reached to their hearts. They still remain disciples.”
— Osho, Light on the Path
And thanks for the Vrishant link, a very interesting guy. I listened to his interview with Buddha At The Gas Pump, and I could really relate with a life-changing experience he had, when he set out with his girlfriend in a light boat and ended up needing to be rescued in a cyclone. That made him realise that his life up to that point had been empty, that he had given his life to creating some businesses but he hadn’t gotten in touch with his heart.
Satchit,
NP,
Whacking me friendly with his stick….I get the drift….
The responsibility quote gets to the point for me: getting ideas presented for me to assess and evaluate and decide – and put the energy in it. Or somewhere else.
Mighty good point. Plus remaining friendly and smiling throughout da challenge.
I’ve been revisiting Hugh Milne’s book “Bhagwan: The God that Failed”, and it seems to me that a lot of the parts where he is writing from memory are largely factual, and contain elements that do support Erin Robbins’ letter.
There seems to be a larger picture of Osho’s behaviour outside the carefully constructed guru image that is building up. Things like the examination of naked female visitors who want to take sannyas. Or the expensive things he used to order from catalogues. Or the nitrous oxide.
The more I think about the implications of these things, the less enlightened Osho seems, and the less trustworthy he appears as a spiritual guide.
NP,
I feel that he had a kind of ‘hangover’ (karma) due to his growing up in the East…
A modern example of a famous Eastern person on how to let go of the luxury and other stuff:
https://indianexpress.com/article/entertainment/bollywood/shah-rukh-khan-i-am-a-fakir-in-real-life-not-attached-to-my-success-at-all/
“Offering his perfect reasoning as to how he can be a fakir even when having loved material things, SRK said, “I have always liked material things. It’s like the ‘Monk who sold his Ferrari’. Genuinely I believe in it. The reason I liked material things was because had I not tasted it, I wouldn’t have known how to give it up. I can’t give up anything that I have never had.”
With regard to the understanding of the ‘right’ approach to meditation is I take Bhagwan/Osho as an extremely helpful meditation teacher: every now and then I am stumbling across a quote which really gives me a hint. So, that is helpful.
Insight and over-standing imo must happen inside our good selves.
Example quote:
https://www.osho.com/osho-online-library/osho-talks/discipline-anarchism-power-8c80b0f2-046?p=46f18d5bb75b5e13772933c9ccd3d9a9
Osho explains the pure power of non-discipline. The power that is the consequence of discipline is impure.
Being a fellow Scot I had a few short conversations with Hugh Milne back in the day. I remember him as being a bit up himself at the time, which, given his privileged position at the time, was hardly surprising. When his book came out he was lambasted for penning a bitter and inaccurate account of his life with Osho. I always thought he was telling the truth and as it turns out he almost always was.
I have friends who know Hugh well and, by all accounts, he sounds like a decent and sensitive man.
Currently, there is a lot of shit hitting the fan in regards Osho’s hanky panky with the knickerless ladies in the middle of the night and, of course, the underage sex scandals involving a few sannyasin men who had a taste for jail bait. What a mess.
None of this affects my life today. I really don’t give a fuck about any of it, including how enlightened or unenlightened Osho was. Really, if any of this is affecting you in a disturbing way it is maybe time to take a look at your life and seek a new direction.
As an old friend said to me recently, ‘If you ask me, any guiding principle that delivers fixed ideas about the nature of perfection and enlightenment creates its own illusions, and that’s another reason why I’m not interested in gurus and the whole surrender trip that goes with them. If there is such a thing as the road to salvation, I’ll walk it on my own. Looking for liberation in another person’s enlightenment strikes me as fairly unimaginative way to go about seeking the truth.’
Lokesh,
The upside of this stance is clear.
The downside:
“It’s gonna take time
a whole lot of precious time….”
“Whoever travels without a guide, needs two hundred years for a two-day journey.”
— Rumi (Featured in: Rumi Quotes)
But maybe this only counts for real beginners. Smiley.
That’s certainly one way to approach gurus, Lokesh. This whole affair is causing a minor earthquake for me and my parents, a perhaps overdue adjustment of who Osho was in our eyes. We still have bookcases full of Osho’s books. I think it will take some time to settle.
The thing is, I’ve been quite intensely engaged in the spiritual search over the last few years, going from Osho to Buddhism to Advaita Vedanta but with always a backdrop of Osho. Which is why it’s been a drastic shake-up to alter my perception of him.
I think the interviewer from Buddha At The Gas Pump summarised it rather well when he said, it’s a paradox how such beautiful spiritual people could come from gurus with a chequered past.
Hi NP,
I read your comment with genuine interest. I think ‘an overdue adjustment’ is a major understatement. Yet, I can understand what you mean.
Once upon a time sannyas was my life. Life conspired to change that and I am glad that it did, because I see people are still caught up with a lot of unnecessary bullshit surrounding Osho.
Osho was a pretty crazy man. I enjoyed that about him because I have always been a little crazy myself and could therefore relate to the old boy’s craziness.
Osho was also a hypocrite. What many are missing, in relation to his private sex life, is that for years he promoted celibacy as some sort of spiritual goal. I attended one discourse where he talked about how celibacy should be achieved by the age of 48 etc. Turns out it was all talk. Makes no difference to my life today.
You mention Osho being a backdrop in your life. I can relate to that. Were it not for Osho I would not have experienced many wonderful things in my life that followed subsequent to the seven years I spent in Poona One. For example, I would not have appreciated what Poonjaji had to deliver without the education I received at Osho’s feet.
I think it is safe to say that my times with gurus is a thing of the past. The true master is not the one with the most disciples but rather the one who creates the most masters in their own right. That is the message. People are very fear-orientated. They are scared to take a jump into themselves without mummy or daddy guru there to hold their hand. They do not want to see that teachers etc. are not needed for the rest of their lives, but rather something to be used in the journey to embracing yourself and seeing you do not actually need an external influencer.
Gurus have promoted down through the ages that you can’t make it without them, which is true up to a point, the point where you find the courage to embrace your wonderful and unique aloneness.
Our real teacher never leaves us for a moment, is always present. That teacher’s name is Life. The real guru is life. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a deceiver. We learn by our mistakes. When we recall the most intense moments in our life the ones we remember the most were difficult and challenging times, not blissful ones. That is because we require obstacles to overcome in life in order to grow. Make mistakes. Learn from then, and then move on. More I cannot and need not say on this level.
How many women have actually come forward with/written claims about the night-time meetings, so far?
There are three things I would say.
First, “be a light unto yourself”, as the Buddha said. There was always going to be a time to drop the whole guru affair, and then you come to the point where you yourself decide how to dance and celebrate. Just remember to dance and celebrate!
Second, real guidance can be found within, in the form of Existence doing its thing if you are open to it. Your intuition points things out to you, gives you inspiration, if you can break the habit of looking for pointers from gurus. Surrender gets in the way of these things, it aligns you with someone else’s vision and keeps you from hearing your inner voice.
Third, keep in mind it is all just play, leela. Life is not so serious…sometimes it is Wagnerian drama, and sometimes it is a Mel Brooks comedy, but it is all play. Take a step back and smile.
Yes, Nectar points to Osho for fostering “dance and celebration”.
Points to advaita for heads up on “I am that”.
And points to Buddhism for trying to appear a bit ethical (although failing as much as the rest).
Haha great cartoon
‘Consciousness coach’
‘Mahasatvic tantra trainer’
‘Bodylicious empowerment instructor’
You name it – we have it.
If we don’t have it – you don’t need it.
Choice awareness.
@Lokesh
I was listening to the ‘A Little Bit Culty’ podcast and they did an episode on a cult called Buddhafield, whose leader basically copied Osho, sometimes verbatim by copying speeches from the books. He forbade his followers from reading Osho so that they wouldn’t notice…
The more I come across material like that and about the common tactics of gurus, the more I start getting insight into what was really spiritually beneficial about what we encountered and what was ‘culty stuff’.
NP.
That`s a jaw-dropping movie ‘Holy Hell’ about the ex-porn star gay guru with the plastic surgery who walks around with just his Speedos on. It`s come up before on SN.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f2BG43JW0o
Yes, that’s the one. They did a two-part episode with the guy who made the movie, Will Allen. It sounded pretty far-out there.
Lokesh thinks:
“Osho was also a hypocrite. What many are missing, in relation to his private sex life, is that for years he promoted celibacy as some sort of spiritual goal. I attended one discourse where he talked about how celibacy should be achieved by the age of 48 etc. Turns out it was all talk. Makes no difference to my life today.”
Osho a hypocrite?
Here you betray your Master (“before the rooster crows…”).
There was never a rule to become celibate by 48. It was just storytelling.
The message was always ‘freedom’.
Satchit, of course celibacy by 48 wasn’t declared a “rule” to be obeyed, it was suggested as an ideal, or even normal outcome for a ‘spiritual aspirant’, given earlier stages of development proceed well.
That didn’t come across as ‘storytelling’, fantasy, imagination, although he also added that it was very rare for people to enjoy ideal preceding conditions that would make celibacy something natural, even inevitable, rather than something unnatural, inappropriate, ‘forced’ by chasing an ideal.
However, perhaps celibacy at 48 only applied to ‘pre-enlightenment’, for which someone like Osho, ‘spiritually free’ at 21, was not useful, hence an irrelevance?
SD
Excellently put. Wow.
Wasn`t 42 the `going beyond` age?
It was 7 year cycles: 7,14,21,28,35,42, each being a phase. Natural celibacy being the 7th cycle.
It was presented as some kind of occult reality, for sure.
Btw, Satchit shows the Christianity lurking beneath the surface by mentioning the “Peter`s denial before the cock crows thrice” story.
Maybe he hasn`t read the modern revised version:
“And lo, the wise and foolish virgins didst arrive after midnight and they didst let it all hang out, and yea, it was peaches and creampie. And they didst kneel before him, and Josho said unto them: “Before the cock crows thrice thou shalt blow my cock thrice, and there shall be no wailing and gnashing of teeth. Blessed are those who keep quiet, for they shall get kudos in heaven.
And they didst eat the meat of the lord and drink the wine of the lord and gave thanks.”
Btw, Frank.
I did mention “the cock” especially for you. I knew that you would bite into the bait. Very predictable.
At least you should say thank-you to me!
@Satchit.
No need to feel cocky, it has always been clear that you are a master baiter.
“I did mention “the cock”…I knew that you would bite into the bait.”
Have I got this right, Frank?
Satchit is a master baiting master debater, who wants you to choke his chicken, so he can go cock-a-doodle doo! And you can say thank you.
Poor fellow, I think he has PTSD, Post Traumatic Sannyas Disorder.
PTSD – funny, Dom.
You can lay on the couch.
I’m also good in treating DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder.
A few electric shocks will help!
Dear Dr Dominic,
I think your diagnosis is correct. However, there seem to be a few other related ailments in the mix. It is extremely common amongst those who are convinced they have “got it” to suffer from various STDs (Sannyas Therapy Disorders) often leading to Premature Enlightenment and Repetitive Cliché Syndrome.
There have been some cases of spontaneous remission, but on the whole these ailments are terminal conditions that can only be alleviated by periodic extraction of the urine.
Yeah, sure, Satchit. When put on the spot you can always ask, “Who is on the spot?” You can also ask, “Who am I trying to kid?” Both questions can be answered by one word…’nobody’.
I remember listening to that discourse, about the celibacy by age 48. I remember it being put forward as “the normal occurrence if you haven’t been repressing, which would result in perversion.” But it seems unlikely to me, given all the older politicians still chasing after young women.
Yes, there was another Osho discourse wherein the master spoke in depth about people running around with holes in their head. Satchit would do well to listen to it for he will find a lot he can relate to.
Satchit says, “Here you betray your Master.”
Wrong again. Osho is not my master. Besides, betrayal has nothing to do with speaking the truth. Hypocrite means by definition a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. Osho was guilty of that. For example, he claimed he knew about everything that was going on in his commune. When the shit hit the fan in Oregon, he pleaded ignorance. It was bullshit.
Osho said he was a ‘storyteller’.
Come on, if he would have been a guy like you and me, you would not have stayed seven years
in Pune!?
Do you feel cheated by him?
For me, Osho was always the spiritual grandfather, a bit distant but more a friend than a master. I had no idea what he got up to in his private rooms.
Satchit asks, “Do you feel cheated by Osho?”
No, I don’t. I find that to be a daft question. Perhaps you should try asking yourself some questions. Like, why can’t I come up with anything worthwhile to say?
@ Lokesh
Why is it “daft”?
Feels very normal this question these days when ideas about Osho have been
crashed.
What’s worthwile for one may not be worthwile for the other.
This is how life functions on this planet.
I think what’s clearest to me from all of this is that Osho was not like me. My approach to loving is fundamentally different from his, my approach to caring is different. And I am beginning to doubt whether I can trust him to have my best interests at heart.
Swamishanti talked a little about the heart connection, how if you have a heart connection with Osho you’d actually carry him with you. I’m seriously beginning to wonder whether I would want that.
Satchit, your question, questions, are often daft because they are intended as provocations, not genuine enquires. It is a bit like a schoolyard kid saying, “Your mum sucks the milkman’s dick.” What is important to you is some kind of emotional reaction for you to feed on. It won’t happen with me because your delivery is transparent and your intention obvious. Which, in turn, makes me suspect you are not living a fulfilled emotional life.
Barry Long covered this sort of psychological behaviour well when he spoke about “The Genie in a Bottle.” Your genie will not find sustenance from me.
@NP
The question is:
Who are you ?
@Lokesh
Hmm, what you sense in my questions are your projections.
Seems you think you have to control your emotional reaction?
@satchit
And why is that the question? I thought the answer was obvious: I don’t exist….
Ramana asks:
Who am I?
Satchit, yes, Ramana did say that the question ‘who am I?’ leads to realisation. He also said, the question ‘who am i?’ is not meant to be answered, it is meant to dissolve the questioner. It is a good thing to spend time on.
Satchit, saying the feedback you receive from me is a “projection” is old school sannyasin speak.
While it is true that people do project things onto others, it is also true that to view other people’s comments as projections is just avoidance in another form.
With an attitude like that you will never be open to learning something new about oneself, which is probably what you are comfortable with, even though it can be perceived as being completely stuck.
Lokesh wrote:
“What is important to you is some kind of emotional reaction for you to feed on. It won’t happen with me because your delivery is transparent and your intention obvious. Which, in turn, makes me suspect you are not living a fulfilled emotional life.”
To make it clear what your projections are Lokesh:
I don’t need your emotional reaction to be happy.
I am not a vampire.
My life is perfectly fine.
“Projections” is also not Sannyas old school.
It did exist centuries before Sannyas and it will exist when nobody knows of Sannyas anymore.
Well, I will be 62 years old soon and can neither conform nor confirm…
In the relationship I am in, my female partner is by far the wiser, cooler, more independent as well as more enlightened one….
Lokesh says:
10 June, 2022 at 8:09 am
“I think it is safe to say that my times with gurus is a thing of the past.“
Your time with gurus is anything but a thing of the past, Lokesh. In your case you are attached to Osho as a sort of attachment, a crutch, yet without getting anything out of him. A bit of a sad case really. You are holding onto Osho’s hand, dependent on him for your dose of daily entertainment, yet he is clearly not the guru for you.
You also have a puppy here, Simple Simon, whose ego also likes to believe that he has moved on from Osho and ‘killed the Buddha’, yet, in reality, you are still both deeply attached to Osho, even willing to fund this site.
You don’t appear quite as sad as poor Frank, who has gotten nothing out of Osho, yet is equally attached and spends all his time and his energy trying to pull him down here. Frank’s ego felt inferior from his lack of getting anywhere with Osho or meditation. This feeling of inferiority was difficult to accept for Frank, so his ego has developed a new strategy, with a delusion that he knows better than others and can see through it all.
This feels more comfortable to him than admitting to himself that he got nothing out of meditation.
“Osho was also a hypocrite. What many are missing, in relation to his private sex life, is that for years he promoted celibacy as some sort of spiritual goal. I attended one discourse where he talked about how celibacy should be achieved by the age of 48 etc. Turns out it was all talk. Makes no difference to my life today.”
Osho was speaking to many different people and gave many different teachings over the years, often depending on who he was speaking to at the time. He never promoted celibacy as a sort of spiritual goal. The tales he told were not always meant to be taken literally but were rather used to make a point. You wrote, “Makes no difference to my life today.”
Yet in reality it really does make a difference to your life today and that’s why you keep going on about it.
Perhaps a lot of your confusion amounts from your experience of Osho being limited to Pune One.
At the Ranch, and later periods, Osho answered questions about his sex life quite openly, and made sure that it was clear that he was not celibate, and also that he would not be sticking with the various invented rules and expectations of anyone past.
“The enlightened man can make love, and while he is making love he is still centered in his being. He is just a witness, he is seeing himself and the woman making love; he is a third party. And this is what I mean when I say the enlightened man transcends sex, because he becomes a third party. He can see his own body and the body of his woman completely as a witness. His witnessing is not disturbed by anything.”
(Osho: ‘From Death to Deathlessness’, chapter 5)
“And this is what I mean when I say the enlightened man transcends sex, because he becomes a third party. He can see his own body and the body of his woman completely as a witness. His witnessing is not disturbed by anything.”
No problem for “his witness”…But problematic for Erin and other women, it seems….
I don’t know. Osho isn’t around to defend himself, and back at the time it was clear by the words he gave that in his eyes, all the sex was consensual. He said that it was “only consensual, of course”, and he said something like, “I am truly the Blessed one – no woman has ever refused me.”
Someone sent this to me about this matter:
“Given this woman is now living with another woman she is, at the bare minimum, going through the motions about being a feminist, at the bare minimum, as will all the other women she’s involved with. They will have done everything they can to persuade her she was abused.
Feminism is an ideology of victimhood. Feminists tell each other they were sexually assaulted if they see a man they don’t find attractive glancing at them from across the road. In fairness, at the most extreme, but I would be very surprised if something of that nature didn’t happen here.“
It’s not so difficult to defend him.
And it’s easy looking back and calling something an ‘abuse’.
Erin with her 25 years was part of the action and she could have said “No, thank you, I don’t want it like this.”
But she did not.
Today she would act differently.
Judging something from the past does not function.
Why does she not judge herself, that she should have acted differently?
I have never heard of this.
Perfectly correct, Shanti!
Certainly, it is clear that feminists and victims working for the CIA, the FBI and the BBC are now responsible for attempting to destroying Osho`s vision! Victims must be blamed! And the solution is simple! These feminists and so-called victims must be raped as per the diktats of the Upanishads and Osho himself who stated clearly that “”Rape is woman`s deepest longing”!
To show that these are not merely empty words, Swami Bhorat has decreed that Shanti is the man to carry the torch of rapey superconsciousness forward to a new generation of meditative molesters, grabbling gurus and groping gnanis so that they can cop a feel of consciousness!
In response to the crisis, Swami Bhorat is setting up a new department in his mystery school! Modern western baboons know nothing of the ancient arts practised for yugas in mighty Bhorat such as rape, victim blaming, misogyny and femicide which have been lost by western mind under the influence of victims and feminists! This has resulted in tragically unspiritual situation of women utterly failing to understand their true destiny in experiencing their own greatest longing as ordained and inflicted by predatory despoilers and ravagers twice their age!
Swami Shanti has talked the talk on Sannyas News but can he walk the walk, pork the pork? It is one thing playing the guru on Sannyanews with sad cases like Lokesh and Frank, but has he got what it takes to go out and force himself and Osho`s vision onto a bunch of feminists? And to make unwanted advances onto victims who are totally unaware that they are simply gagging for their deepest longing?
Shanti, can you stand up for what you stand for and prove yourself a better disciple than these unconscious baboons who are only attached to Osho by some sort of attachment, by instigating a wildfire of inappropriate touching, groping, coercion, gaslighting and out-and-out violation in order to save the world from global suicide at the hands of victims, feminists and sad baboons?
Yahoo!
Awomen to that!
Swami Bhorat nails it, just like any self-respecting guru, selflessly nails his devotees’ divine openings.
The Guru hears the silent longing of his female followers, “#MeToo! #MeToo!” and after a quick sniff test, the goose is out, through the gateless gate, on the wings of love, for a tongue-tip taste of Tao, sprinkling them with the outpouring of the guru’s third party witnessing. What a blessing!
To all the detractors, the lesbian feminist bureau of disinformation, and those stuck in their bonobo monkey minds, the master (“no woman has ever refused me”) humbly leads us beyond – “Don’t bite the Zen stick, look where’s it’s pointing!”
Om Shanti
In a way, this whole discussion on Erin’s letter is somewhat incomplete without more of a female perspective from sannyasin women. Would love to hear more from Garima, Madhu or whoever feels like chipping in.
Nityaprem,(9 June, 2022 at 11:44 am):
Hugh Milne’s book was not all lies but it is clear from many people who lived close to Osho that it was dishonest in many ways and had distortions.
Hugh Milne also worked together with the US authorities after he had left the Ranch in 1982. The US authorities at that time were desperate to find ways to destroy the commune, as well as undermine Osho’s credibility, spending lots of energy pursuing Osho and his entourage after he was deported, making sure it was difficult for him to settle anywhere around the world and develop a new commune, and also, making sure that any accounts written by close disciples would not be accepted by any publishers.
Hugh Milne was an agent for the US authorities and his book was part of the deal.
The editor of the Oregonian newspaper, Les Vaitz, had a major hand in producing some of the misinformation and lies in the second part of the book. The Oregonian had boasted early on in the life of Rajneeshpuram that Osho would be deported by 1985. As it turns out, he was. Later the Oregonian boasted that they had helped to destroy the commune.
In more recent years, after some of the criminal trial testimonies were released, that same editor of the Oregonian newspaper, Les Vaitz, produced a piece on Rajneeshpuram which used only selected parts of various testimonies to depict Osho as having direct involvement in the crimes he had exposed. This was done in a cunning way by using only certain parts, deliberately removing other parts such as any suggestion in the testimonies that Sheela had made transcripts or altered parts of Osho’s words.
That piece by the Oregonian has been spread around the internet by simplistic, anti-Osho north American propagandists such as Christopher Calder and some others.
Hugh Milne also deliberately removed certain things such as several lines from Osho’s press interview from Oklahoma Jail.
His book was used by the authorities who also released excerpts in certain newspapers when Osho was in jail.
All of which, apart from revealing the corruption of the powers-that-be in the US, demonstrates what a monumental mistake it was to set up shop in that place and in that country. Breathtakingly naive in fact.
Osho knew India and its practicalities inside-out, but he really hadn’t much of a clue about the States. Not a criticism, but an observation.
Everyone thinks their guru and cult is the GOAT, but this is just plain master baiting and sectsism!
I recall the infamous enlightened master ‘Fu Ling Yu’, who claimed 100% celibacy, because he didn’t give a f@ck.
After initiating his female followers into the practice of Tong Fu and TM (Toxic Masculinity) they had to sign a non-disclosure agreement and chant the three knoble truths:
- there’s a seeker born every minute
- what happens in the fully equipped tantra temple stays in the fully equipped tantra temple
- meet the New Man, same as the Old Man!
Well, he certainly played the Buddhafield, until he had to leave a bit sharpish, after a bust tip -off that the Feds were coming for him.
Last I heard he’d changed his name to ‘Cha Ching’, and was still vibrating on the asstral plane.
What has become of his followers?
Some have changed sects, or practising safe sects, some have completely lost interest in sects, while others await his second coming.
Meanwhile he’s been laying down some beats and bars to summarise his teaching:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJeQnOWvtG8
Dominic,
You are clearly sects-obsessed.
Sounds like you might need to spend some time on the couch with Sigmund Satchit, resident expert in psycho-sexual guru problems and football pundit.
“You are clearly sects-obsessed.”
You got me! Since lockdown I’ve been sects starved, without any group sects, sects tourism, or sects, drugs and rock-and-roll. My sects life is screwed! I should get help at Sectsaholics Anonymous.
“Sounds like you might need to spend some time on the couch with Sigmund Satchit”
It would have to be a very large, wide couch, and I would have to socially distance myself, with some noise-cancelling headphones for the squawking…braaaaaaakk!
I’m sure he’s a fine fellow though… when he’s let out of the cage, and a very solid practitioner of mind Fullness, Transcendental Medication, and a true believer.
Does he want to pick our brainz? I’m sure he does, and won’t stop until we’re all….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDz1Er2IXA
Thanks, Frank, for the recommendation.
But my surgery is crowded.
Too many people disillusioned from their Guru.
@Satchit
It must be a demanding job being a sects worker.
Fair play to you though, you are obviously a completely faithful and 100% surrendered devotee.
I don`t think anyone will ever shake your unshakeable belief that Gerd Muller is the GOAT.
There is only one cause of disillusionment, and that is illusionment!
Sects maniacs, strung out on hopium, after pouring over some OnlyFans sites and soft core manuals like ‘The Joy Of Sects’.
Now some addicts have a bigger sects drive, and prefer lots of casual sects (guilty as charged!).
When it comes to sects though, size matters.
Just remember, it takes a village to make a village idiot. The bigger the village, the bigger the… well, you catch my drift.
Haahaaaa, fantastic wording:
‘hopium’
A rather addictive hormones cocktail…but cheaper than the other ‘ium’.
Haahaa!
These guys certainly can hammer a four-letter word!
Yeah, they’re sects mad.
One of the questions that the interviewers asked Erin on the ‘A Little Bit Culty’ podcast was about ‘red flags’, so called because they are the bits where your brain is trying to tell you you’re in a cult. It seems interesting to me to try to put together a list of red flags about Osho and various points of the sannyasin movement.
Here are a few potential ones which I remember…
- separating kids from their families
- having no idea for healthcare for the sannyasins
- Osho dictating people’s sexual relationships in Poona 1
- guns at the Ranch
- Sheela and her antics
- using unpleasant assigned tasks to tackle people’s “ego”
- broken bones in people’s encounter groups
I’m sure there are more….
NP,
These points to me seem more about the behaviour of and the acting out in ‘the commune’.
Those came to be the standard.
Also of ‘not speaking out’ of individuals.
A lot of conformity.
Imo, very off-putting.
It is all hindsight.
Yes indeed, it is all hindsight. But the important thing is to take the lessons of the past with us into tomorrow. There is a certain amount of re-evaluation that we have to do, based on the information we are getting access to today.
I think we have to accept that it is what it is. Many people have found sannyas and Osho very helpful in living a free and unencumbered life.
And other people, perhaps not so many, like Erin, have come to the conclusion that it wasn’t the great experience they thought at the time.
Any movement with as many followers as Osho had is bound to catch a cross-section of society. And you have to see the effects of the commune as a whole as separate from Osho’s state of being. It was a great big mixture, all of the things at once, good and bad.
NP
5:52
That is on spot, imo.
The commune actions vs. Osho’s beingness.
Yes, but even within Osho himself there was Osho the experimenter and Osho the spiritual friend. I don’t think I am qualified to pass judgment on his being but there were these different facets.
I think we will just have to accept the complexity of him, that he sometimes strayed over what we would call the accepted boundary lines.
“MY SANNYAS IS NOT IN ANY WAY IMPOSING SOMETHING ON YOU. It is simply conferring freedom on you. By giving you sannyas, I AM NOT GIVING YOU AN IDEOLOGY; I am just giving you courage to get free of all ideologies. By giving sannyas to you, I am not giving you a certain religion: Hindu, Mohammedan, Christian. I am simply giving you courage to become an individual, to be a unique individual.
My sannyas is not a character that will confine you. MY SANNYAS IS AN AWARENESS THAT WILL GIVE YOU MORE AND MORE FREEDOM. And if one day you feel that my sannyas is making a prison for you, then drop out of it — that will be the true sannyas spirit. BUT NEVER ALLOW IT TO BECOME AN IMPRISONMENT.”
Osho — A Sudden Clash of Thunder, Chapter 10
Perfectly correct, Samarpan,
Everything is perfectly correct in the perfectly correct world of the perfectly correct disciple of the perfectly correct master!
No need to engage mind which is nothing but mind which is simply nonce-sense!
Certainly, tossing Osho quotes for every eventuality is perfectly adequate to deal with every problem in life from cradle to grave via P Wing!
Remember: “The lie of the awakened one is more true than the truth of the unawakened one”!
Swami Bhorat sends his blessings!
Yahoo!
Samarpan, I read that quote and think, sannyas giving more and more freedom? It hasn’t been my experience. I’ve found sannyas to be just another thing to cling to, it creates as much community as it creates separation, it creates a certain expectation. There aren’t many people who know what it means, and many of those who do know associate it with Osho’s many Rolls Royces and the misdeeds of the end of Rajneeshpuram.
NP,
What exactly do you mean by: “I’ve found sannyas to be just another thing to cling to, it creates as much community as it creates separation, it creates a certain expectation.”?
Also, why do you think it’s important that many people associate Sannyas with the Rolls Royces and the Ranch “misdeeds”? What has that got to do with individuals pursuing their spiritual lives with Osho as their inspiration? Why bother about ‘public opinion’?
It’s not important, it’s just something you come across where Sannyas typecasts you. A year ago or so when I did a course in ‘Meaning and the Life Tree’ we talked about our personal histories, and I talked for a while about my sannyas background.
I think it’s a good thing for people to pursue their lives with Osho as inspiration, I certainly won’t get in their way. Osho’s discourses were often a positive influence on my thinking.
I’ve been reflecting a little on sannyas and how it relates to freedom. My perspective is coloured I think by being in it from an early age…it didn’t really free me because there weren’t any lifelong habits that had been installed.
Ok NP, thanks.
Could you clarify “it creates as much community as it creates separation, it creates a certain expectation.”?
Sure…the orange clothes, the mala, the Indian name would often separate me from people in the streets or at school, and even now just wearing the mala is a statement. Which is why I keep it in a box.
At the same time, the red robes I wore last time I visited Poona also created a kind of community, a togetherness. You have a connection with fellow-sannyasins, you share something that you don’t share with the general public.
Flawlessly accurate, Samarpan!
CONSENSUAL SECTS IS BEST!
And if the GURU CANCELS, BLOCKS, OR GHOSTS US after dropping “out of it”, it is by his grace, so we may become more FOOLY ARSELVES!
Master knows what he’s doing!
BUILDING HEAVEN ON EARTH, JUST FOR THE HELL OF IT!
Om Shanti
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEzC-3mi3y0
Perfectly correct, Dominic!
Certainly, it is always a sign of true enlightenment AND UTTERLY BALANCED MENTAL/EMOTIONAL STATE WHEN BLOGGERS WRITE IN LONG BURSTS OF CAPITAL LETTERS!
YAHOO!
HARI OM!
Exactly right, Frank!
Also, THE UNCONTROLLABLE URGE TO ALWAYS AND ONLY QUOTE THE MASTER’S WORDS, whenever possible, IS the pure gesture of a blissful devotee!
Only the low vibrational plane of the conditioned mind would think it A developMENTAL ISSUE AND JUST A LITTLE BIT CULTY!!
Ooooohhhmmmm shanti shanti shanti
About sex Life of the Buddha/master/spiritual friend/Osho…My opinion is that it could be true that sexual pleasure has also a social emancipating function for the one who is, or feels to be, in a lack of power with the partner.
It turns out Osho was a great experimenter. He experimented with meditations, he once pushed a child’s head under the water and almost drowned him just to see what it would do. He also experimented with sex. His experiments just weren’t always pleasant for others.
Nityaprem,
While you’re agonising over Osho’s dealings with Erin, what about the large number of homeless people who were scavenged from the streets to populate Rajneeshpuram in an attempted election scam, and when that failed were unceremoniously discarded?
Shouldn’t you also be taking their treatment into consideration when weighing up Osho’s moral character? Or do you feel that Osho is only culpable for abuse to human beings he can physically touch?
You’re right to mention them, it wasn’t very kind to give them hope for a new home only to discard it again later. But life is what you make it, and some of them may have made the most of the opportunity.
There was a story Ram Dass sometimes told about his guru Neem Karoli Baba. Ram Dass would chastise his guru for handing out photographs of himself to all kinds of people who were worldly and didn’t care about him. Neem Karoli Baba replied, “You don’t understand me. If I tell a man he is a great bhakta (devotee), I am planting a seed. If a person already has the seed planted and growing, why should I plant another?” Ram Dass said, “You are telling these drunkards, liars, and dacoits that they are real bhaktas. They will just go home and carry on their old behaviours.” Maharajji said, “Some of them will remember what I said of them, and it will make them want to develop this quality in themselves. If ten out of a hundred are inspired in this way, it is a very good thing.”
I’ve thought about Erin’s letter a lot. Carried it in my heart for a while. And in the end, although I think Osho was wrong to do what he did, it is what it is. He planted many seeds as well. He did some great things and some not so great things. You get to accept the whole package.
For us it is a good lesson, about not elevating another person too high in your esteem. They are just people, impermanent, fallible. Maybe Osho was more suited to be the spiritual friend than an Indian god-man.
“Maybe Osho was more suited to be the spiritual friend than an Indian god-man.”
He did verbally rebrand himself as a ‘friend’ after the Ranch fiasco, did he not, but never really dropped the role of ‘Master’.
Is there anyone left to be named an “Indian god-man”, with a straight face, in the identity parade of holy hustlers?
Perhaps Ramana qualifies because he doesn’t seem to have had much of a sex-power-money drive. But, call me a skepdick, I’ve lost faith in the idea.
As for Neem Karoli Baba…
“The first time he [Guru Neem Karoli Baba] took me in the room alone I sat up on the tucket [low wooden bed] with him, and he was like a seventeen-year-old jock who was a little fast! I felt as if I were fifteen and innocent. He started making out with me, and it was so cute, so pure. I was swept into it for a few moments — then grew alarmed: “Wait! This is my guru. One doesn’t do this with one’s guru!” So I pulled away from him. Then Maharajji [Neem Karoli Baba] tilted his head sideways and wrinkled up his eyebrows in a tender, endearing, quizzical look. He didn’t say anything, but his whole being was saying to me, “Don’t you like me?”
But as soon as I walked out of that particular darshan [the ritual act of seeing and being seen by the divine], I started getting so sick that by the end of the day I felt I had vomited and shit out everything that was ever inside me. I had to be carried out of the ashram [religious hermitage]. On the way, we stopped by Maharajji’s [Neem Karoli Baba’s] room so I could pranam [prostrate] to him. I kneeled by the tucket and put my head down by his feet — and he kicked me in the head, saying, “Get her out of here!” . . .
That was the first time, and I was to be there for two years. During my last month there, I was alone with him every day in the room…Sometimes he would just touch me on the breasts and between my legs, saying, “This is mine, this is mine, this is mine. All is mine. You are mine.” You can interpret it as you want, but near the end in these darshans, it was as though he were my child. Sometimes I felt as though I were suckling a tiny baby.”
God-man or Blob-man?
Do you collect anti-guru stories, Dominic?
Check this if you can be arsed (pun inevitable) http://www.saibaba-x.org.uk/6/Sai_Baba_sex_abuse-claims.html
Bugger me, that Sly Baba is one hell of a Holey man! Is it the Michael Jackson hair?
A lot of cover-ups, queeries, and people not thinking straight!
They all thought he was a God-man, and God can do what he wants, right?
According to Nisargaddata Maharaj’s master, old Siddharameshwar Maharaj:
If you’ve read one story of sexual abuse and misuse of power you’ve read them all, I think. I don’t see the point in examining each story, seeing if it’s true and maintaining my own personal register of black marks against gurus.
It’s sad for these women that wherever they go they get chased by men, and everything they do is seen through the lens of sex by some people. It is simpler for men.
What if you had a female master, NP? Wouldn’t you fancy being invited for a shag?
It really depends…on the one hand it could be just a bit of fun, on the other to see her afterwards just move on to the next guy doesn’t sound very wonderful.
Don’t you think sex and love should go together, SS?
Perfectly correct, Shanti!
Certainly, Nityaprem is not familiar with the Four Noble Truths as expounded by Gautam the Bugger:
Find `em
Fiddle with `em
Fuck `em
Forget `em.
Yahoo!
Completely right, SS!
It is certainly an abuse and cruel injustice that female masters (mistresses?) are not being empowered to shag their male devotees senseless into a no-mind never-mind state of ecstatic bliss!
This has caused much groaning and moaning amongst their male bhaktas and cannot be tolerated any longer!
@Nityaprem:
“Don’t you think sex and love should go together, SS?”
I think sex is a great expression of love. Love that is made physical.
It is healthy, also fun and, especially in this day and age, when contraception is readily available.
I do respect Osho`s views on sex, part of his idea was that sex can be open, loose and playful, and with the option of not neccesarily having a long-term relationship. This was also part of his own vision for his `New Man`, as Devageet recalled in his book.
I respect Osho`s views on a more open and playful attitude to sex, which would mean no hang-ups from people just having it off in the supermarket, or having a loud quickie in the office, or even openly in the street.
This could really be a progressive move forward, I believe. And if people`s attitudes towards sex opened up in this way, you would soon see that porn would begin to lose its appeal.
With a more open attitude towards sex, of course contraception plays a major role in being responsible.
“I respect Osho`s views on a more open and playful attitude to sex, which would mean no hang-ups from people just having it off in the supermarket, or having a loud quickie in the office, or even openly in the street.
This could really be a progressive move forward, I believe. And if people`s attitudes towards sex opened up in this way, you would soon see that porn would begin to lose its appeal.”
When did Osho suggest or imply “just having it off in the supermarket, or having a loud quickie in the office, or even openly in the street” was desirable?
I find it hard to imagine an approach that would be more guaranteed to devalue sexual intimacy than what you’re advocating here, SS. So much so that I wonder just how serious you’re being.
It’s one thing to drop crippling guilt, shame and inhibitions, but quite another to propose what amounts to an exhibitionist’s charter! I think the consequence of such totally self-indulgent behaviour that’s utterly disrespectful of others would be more likely to encourage porn and the screwed-up attitudes that go with it, as both cause and effect.
It’s a misplaced concept of ‘freedom’ that would inevitably tend to turn both ‘innocent fun’ and the potentially sacred into the profane.
I have seen a couple having it off on a bench once on a stroll through a London park, but that was an exceptionally unusual event. Woodstock Festival in 1969 was a special time and people were loose and natural with sex, and the same can be said of some of the alternative gatherings on this side of the pond. Staying in a field, no one is going to complain if someone’s caravan is bouncing up and down or a couple are lying in a loving embrace somewhere in the grass.
The fact is that we are still carrying Victorian repressive and heavy attitudes to sex, and sex in public is still a rare event.
Osho didn’t give any specific instructions as to what kind of sex life he expected people to have.
But Devageet recalled a time in Pune Two when he was having relationship problems with his girlfriend who, unbeknownst to him, had written to Osho for advice, and that happened to coincide with several other couples living in Lao Tzu house who also had relationship issues. A short time later Devageet and his partner and five other couples, also members of Osho’s household, were called into a meeting in Hasya’s room.
Vivek read out a message from Osho, suggesting that the couples present separate with awareness without clinging, and, though they could still be friends, they should allow their relationships to end in an atmosphere of loving gratitude.
They should let each other know how much they had valued and enjoyed their time together; and recognising that the love between them had changed and cooled, it was time for the relationships to end.
The message continued, telling them that they had been chosen to be his first sannyasins to live his vision for mature men and women. They had been chosen because he could see that we were now able to live together as individuals, free from any relationship, living in a new, conscious way – relating, but not in a relationship.
He affirmed that the old style of relationship was over, and they should be happy at the news.
Osho said that sannyasins on the outside of Lao Tzu House would see and take example from them. He said that he had been waiting for this time, the time when his people were ready to relate in a new way, as mature men and women. He was happy that the time had finally arrived.
Vivek summarised his vision and told them:
“The world is ready for the New Man, and the old style of relationship has to be dropped along with the old conditioning. The New Man is able to relate easily and freely with others, valuing friendliness and a higher value than the old style of possessive, clinging relationship, even higher than friendship: friendship is still a ‘ship’, it can sink. Mature people can be loving without being possessive; they can live together in freedom without jealousy.”
Shanti,
I’m sure non-participants would welcome regular public sex going on in supermarkets, offices and on the streets, brightening up their otherwise predictable daily routines. But why stop there, why not encourage and expect plenty of it on show on the trains, the tubes, coaches and buses? (Then the public would really revolt against any vestige of a threat of a transport strike). And, naturally, in the parks, art galleries and museums. Then, of course, we mustn’t leave out pubs, hotel foyers, cafes, restaurants, telephone boxes (I knew they’d come in handy for something other than ‘museum pieces’ now that no one uses them), perhaps even police stations…”Sex-in-public-everywhere” will be the mantra for an Idea whose Time has, er, ‘Come’!
If and when people become truly liberated from their Victorian shackles why not turn sex into a spectator sport? No doubt it would have much potential to be ‘monetised’…How about tv programmes showing ‘highlights’ from each public arena, with trophies for the ‘best performances’, decided by panels of ‘experts’ (maybe you’d want to do that job?) and by viewers’ votes?
There does seem rather a long way to go, however, given the very few examples of liberation that you’ve provided. I mean, Woodstock was saturated with drugs, likewise other festivals, and true freedom must surely not rely on such crutches (as it were).
The question inevitably arises: What on earth is wrong with people that they don’t see and long for what they’re so obviously missing?
“I’m sure non-participants would welcome regular public sex going on in supermarkets, offices and on the streets, brightening up their otherwise predictable daily routines. But why stop there, why not encourage and expect plenty of it on show on the trains, the tubes, coaches and buses? (Then the public would really revolt against any vestige of a threat of a transport strike). And, naturally, in the parks, art galleries and museums. Then, of course, we mustn’t leave out pubs, hotel foyers, cafes, restaurants, telephone boxes (I knew they’d come in handy for something other than ‘museum pieces’ now that no one uses them), perhaps even police stations…”Sex-in-public-everywhere” will be the mantra for an Idea whose Time has, er, ‘Come’!”
Yes, well said, Satyadeva. I suggest that you forward your suggestions to London councils.
Right you are, SS, I’ll refer them to you to further clarify the rationale behind these important, practical common-sense proposals.
Shanti, you wrote, “I respect Osho`s views on a more open and playful attitude to sex, which would mean no hang-ups from people just having it off in the supermarket, or having a loud quickie in the office, or even openly in the street.”
Then, above, you say, “Osho didn’t give any specific instructions as to what kind of sex life he expected people to have.”
So thanks for clarifying that the public scenarios you list are your own preferences, and nothing to do with what Osho recommended.
However, do you think that your intimate meditative communung with Osho’s energy might provide further illumination as to what his preferences are (or were), or is such practical help no longer available, even for highly experienced, advanced disciples?
Right, Dominic.
This days I wouldn’t even bother going to a satsang with a woman if I thought I wasn`t in for a chance of a shag round the back later.
“Squirrels doing it outside on a rainy day”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA6oo_hun-s
That’s the way to do it!
It is not even offensive, imo. Quite natural.
Careful, slight sarcasm here.
“Right, Dominic.
This days I wouldn’t even bother going to a satsang with a woman if I thought I wasn`t in for a chance of a shag round the back later.”
To summarise then, SS…
What’s the difference between Sai Baba and a female master for you?
One’s a magician, the other’s a vagician.
Although these days, you better check, when you take her to the supermarket for a quickie, that ‘she’ doesn’t put her meat and two veg in your basket.
Holy Hell!
Dominic,
There were lots of stories of Sai Baba oiling people’s balls.
According to some of the accounts, Sai Baba demonstrated that he was able to morph his genitalia, from a phallus into a vagina. Apparently, Sai Baba had asked them to touch his robe, which demonstrated his phallus underneath, then he asked them to touch again, and the bump was gone and instead, was felt a woman’s parts.
One man claimed that he had full ‘tantric sex’ with Sai Baba in the ‘70’s , except Sai Baba exhibited a vagina.
As well as the complaints, there were also a few women who claimed that he had visited them in their homes and had sex with them, too.
As a heterosexual, I’m not into that kind of scene, thanks.
“there were also a few women who claimed that he had visited them in their homes and had sex with them, too.”
Totally believable, SS!
I also heard from a creditable source that he could multilocate for tantric sex, with multiple phalluses!
And not only morph his genitalia, but grow some bodacious boobies, and squeeze milk offerings out of them for his devotees, while oiling balls!
What a fakir!
“As a heterosexual, I’m not into that kind of scene”
Btw, congrats on being hetero.
It’s very brave of you to come out!
That’s really weird these days, especially in June!
Apparently, Stephen Turoff was inspired by meeting Sai Baba and after becoming a healer had several ‘visitations’ from Sai Baba in his clinic.
This is the same psychic healer that Satyadeva went to see.
Turoff claimed that Sai Baba appeared in his physical form in his spiritual healing clinic in Danbury, close to London, and gave Darshan to patients in the waiting room and then healed a diabetes patient before writing a message for Turoff on the wall: “Stephen I am with you”, and dematerialised his body right afterwards. (Turoff was apparently with another patient in his office while this took place). There were also reports of vibhuti ash materialising in the clinic.
I am not a devotee of the Afro-man Sai Baba, but there are a lot of claims of bilocation, and also a lot of claims of materialisation of vibhuti ash on photos in the homes of devotees.
I recall that Sai Baba story now, although I hadn’t previously heard that SB actually appeared and healed a patient. But I wonder whether that really happened, as Turoff’s clinic was always jam-packed with patients (dozens!) and surely at least a few of them would have publicly confirmed the story by now, it would have reached the media and been presented as a sensational event.
Stephen Turoff is a lovely man, totally committed/surrendered to his work, a vehicle for wonderful healing, and he’s also at times a bit of a ‘lovable rogue’ who probably might not be averse to the odd convenient psycho-spiritual fabrication, possibly even to the extent of believing it himself!
There were actually multiple accounts of Sai Baba bilocating, performing various ‘miracles’, and reports of healing. Many of his devotees reported vibhuti miraculously appearing on their photos of SB in their homes. There was no rational explanation.
One of the men who joined the bandwagon of those complaining of abuse claimed Sai Baba had oiled his balls several times. This particular man also claimed that Sai Baba had materialised on a beach in Sri Lanka and saved him from committing suicide at that time. That was before he ended up living in Sai Baba’s ashram.
Of course you can’t just go to the press with these kind of stories, people will think you are crazy. Only the Sunday Sport may be interested.
Apparently, some devotees had experienced miracles, and had no doubt that Sai Baba was an avatar, but left him because they found the sexual abuse claims unacceptable.
Yes, I recall such stories, almost all emanating from India, I read a lot about Sai Baba before and during my visit to his home village in ’96.
However, as far as I know, the claimed phenomena at Stephen Turoff’s clinic in Essex haven’t been corroborated by anyone present at the time, which does tend to make them suspect.
No, they were not all from India , SD.
Actually there were similar reports from around the world of manifestations of vibhuti on photos , and other stories of bilocation and healings, spiritual guidance, etc.
I said “almost all”, SS, ie the vast majority.
I don’t know which books you’ve read on SSB, SD, but the couple of spiritual books I’ve read, which feature stories of Satya Sai Baba, actually have accounts from only Westerners.
The only Indian accounts I’ve read were online.
SS, I still have at least two books on Sai Baba that I bought when I was in Puttapathi (one of which is helping to support my laptop as I write). I’ve got rid of a few others and read one or two more over there. Almost all were published in India, written by Indians.
Well, you know what they say, Swamishanti, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” If a bilocating Indian mystic wants to pay me a visit, I’ll be open to the experience; until such time I shall treat these claims with the skepticism they deserve.
Just reading back the discussion between Swamishanti and Satyadeva on opening up sexual mores.
I agree with Satyadeva, I think it would lead to a devaluation of intimacy, and thereby a decrease in couples happily looking after kids for 20 years.
You can see that since the 60s sexual openness has swung back and forth. It decreased, then it increased again, and so on. Contraception has been around for a while, but other factors seem to be keeping the status quo.
Ah, you noticed, NP, my anti-guru porn collection. Honestly, I can’t keep up archiving it all. Could use some help, are you free?
@dominic, you want my advice, I’d say dump it all in a skip and let it rot. There are better things to do with our precious short lives, don’t you think?
Yes, I have heard this tale from Neem Karoli Baba. A powerful master by many accounts. I have also heard another story, from one of his disciples. One day Neem Baba told him to visit Satya Sai Baba in Puttapati, but this fellow didn’t want to go. However, the Baba insisted.
The guy got to Sai Baba’s ashram and sat with others who lined the path outside waiting for darshan. Shortly, Sai Baba appeared, sporting his trademark Afro and orange robe and started moving down the line and greeting each person present.
The guy in question was not in a good mood, was not feeling open towards Sai Baba at all and did not give a smile to Sai Baba when he approached. Sai Baba said, “good”, and gave him a pat on the head. The guy reported falling into no-mind for some time after that,when he came to his senses, still sitting on the path, everyone else had left.
I visited Sai Baba in late ’96, purely out of curiosity and for a fun holiday, inspired by a ‘Sai Baba healer’ I’d come across at a Saturday event in Holloway Road, north London, who’d organised travel and accommodation for a group of about 20, the vast majority of us non-devotees.
Despite the very large numbers gathered at his ashram, for days we somehow sensed we’d be chosen for a private session with SB one day, which duly happened, one of us being tapped on the shoulder by him as he made his way through the seated throng at his morning session and told to “tell your people to come and see me!”
So we all lined up in front of his private quarters and he ushered us through the door. As I passed him, he placed his hand on top of my head and said, “Very good”, or something like that. I was pleased he bothered, but unfortunately though, I didn’t fall into no-mind….
I recall hearing about Sai Baba’s magic tricks, and thought, well, if that’s all he does, he’s not a very impressive guru. It just goes to show, with gurus it’s very hard to tell, even the so-called fakes can surprise you.
Thanks for the stories.
Sai Baba didn’t impress me much at that group meeting with him, I recall his little piping voice and largely pretty inconsequential remarks to individuals. There was no discernible special ‘shakti’, which surprised and rather disappointed me but the thing is, we’d come with certain attitudes and expectations, having for nearly a week been around his village and ashram, attending his daily meetings, becoming saturated with ‘great miracle-maker, holy man’ vibes, had been shown around the ultra-modern hospital he’d inspired and heard accounts of other impressive charitable enterprises, not to mention tales of miraculous healing and manifestation, and so we were well primed for suspending any scepticism and being almost as reverential as the Indian devotees.
However, he did make a point of discouraging the man who was in charge of our visit from thinking of his work as ‘Sai Baba healing’, channelling SB’s energy, telling him it was false, a delusion, which was quite a ‘hit’ for the man, who, about 60, had separated from his wife and was a 100% committed devotee.
Despite, or maybe because of the seductive ambience of Eastern magic in that environment, I decided that primarily Sai Baba was a guru for Indians, stressing integrity, honesty, speaking out against corruption, advocating love, prayer, chanting etc. but without anything like the depth of psychological insight and wisdom I’d heard from Osho, plus all the rest of Osho’s methods.
While over there we’d heard just one or two vague rumours of his goings-on with young men, but nothing that couldn’t be easily explained by our healer as something like “re-balancing” or “purifying” the lower chakras. A few years later I heard that he’d died and I wonder whether the shock of the many later substantiated sexual abuse revelations plus SB’s rejection of his special ‘healing connection’ was largely to blame. Sad, even tragic if so, as he was a good man, sincere in his devotion.
@SD
And that’s probably a large part of the use of a real guru, to disabuse people of these kinds of delusions. The inner guru won’t do that.
Thinking that you have a special connection with your guru can easily become an exercise in imagining, those who talk about it probably aren’t really engaged in it.
You mentioned visiting the psychic surgeon, Stephen Turoff, in London, SD. He’s a devotee of Sai Baba. Didn’t he claim that Sai Baba visited him in his office or something? Bi-location. I can’t remember the exact story. Maybe it was that Sai Baba left a message on his chalk-board or something. There are so many stories.
Yes, SS, Stephen Turoff did mention something like that, but I forget exactly what it was that he said happened. He certainly interpreted the event as a psychic visitation from Sai Baba, yes.
I wonder what he thinks of Sai Baba these days.
Actually, in India it is always possible to find someone with siddhis such as those demonstrated by Satya Sai Baba and various other yogis. That is, power over matter, the ability to manifest various objects.
They are not simply ‘magic tricks’. Osho called Sai Baba a ‘street magician’ but he was wrong.
Shanti,
Sai Baba wasn`t actually good enough to be an Indian street magician. Those jadoo babas are good. Sai Baba had very poor quality sleight of hand as videos of him reveal.
Sai Baba was pretty much the Indian version of Jimmy Savile. A really dangerous paedophile who, like Savile, conned literally millions of people. Even using many of the same cover tactics, eg raising enormous sums for charity, catching powerful people in his net.
The difference is that after death, the establishment in India continues to support him. In Savile`s case, that did not happen.
That people like you tout this awful character as some kind of holyman is just sick.
No one in their right mind is impressed with your pathetic claims of knowing about real magic by holymen in India.
Grow the fuck up, man.
Foolish Frank, the reason it doesn’t look like ‘poor sleight of hand’ to you, is because actually it wasn’t.
You were just looking in the wrong place, at videos created by people who thought they had caught him out.
A bit like immature types who thought that they had caught Osho out as a cult leader using hypnosis and someone who was just giving people experiences by suggesting certain things to them – suggestibility. A bit like what you think.
Shanti, you say:
“the reason it doesn’t look like ‘poor sleight of hand’ to you, is because actually it wasn’t.”
What you are writing here shows you aren`t capable of a coherent answer.
If you want to support a paedophile`s divine right to be a paedophile, that’s your `karma` I guess.
Who knows? Maybe in your next life, in your search for enlightenment, Jim`ll fix it for you!
What I wrote wasn’t incoherent. I wrote “the reason it doesn’t look like ‘poor sleight of hand’ to you, is because actually it wasn’t.”
That means it wasn’t ‘sleight of hand’, as in a trick, a con, which is what your mind is constantly pointing at.
“Osho called Sai Baba a ‘street magician’ but he was wrong.”
Well, he certainly knew how to make young boys disappear with a ‘Poof!’
Hmm…I don’t believe in siddhis or miracles. There used to be people in Europe who claimed such things, but ever since they were scientifically investigated in large numbers and exposed as con tricks people have stopped believing.
More on Neem Karoli Baba from Oshonews:
‘Comment by Osho News’ from the below piece:
“We heard the following from Peggy: During Rajneeshpuram days she was told by Yoga Prem (Nirupa’s brother) about a darshan he had attended many, many years ago. Someone had come to take sannyas and Osho apparently said, “I am not your master, Neem Karoli Baba is your master. Go to him.”
:https://www.oshonews.com/2014/05/29/neem-karoli-baba/
Neem Karoli Baba sends a seeker to Satya Sai Baba.
Osho sends a seeker to Neem Karoli Baba.
@dominic, who said “He did verbally rebrand himself as a ‘friend’ after the Ranch fiasco, did he not, but never really dropped the role of ‘Master’.”
I think it was clear that no one person could be a Master to an organisation as large as the Ranch. It also seems clear to me that the idea of having a master is not really something of this time, the title of schoolmaster has even gone out of fashion. If people know what to expect of it it’s from the likes of ‘Pride and Prejudice’, or from Annie Besant and Theosophy and her ‘enlightened masters’.
It’s all ancient history now…who knows whether even hints of neo-Sannyas will survive, or whether Osho’s movement will go the way of Bankei and his Unborn Zen, popular for a time and then a mere page in Wikipedia.
“It also seems clear to me that the idea of having a master is not really something of this time, the title of schoolmaster has even gone out of fashion.”
I was always repelled by the word ‘master’ applied to a guru, a slightly creepy bdsm 50 shades of orange vibe, which easily translates into, “I am perfection, just do as I say.”
Raising some superhero fantasy figure up on too high a pedestal, means they are bound to fall, only accentuating the gap between the ideal and the real.
In reality, the Wizard of OZ is behind the curtain, popping pills, with his knob out, blowing smoke up your ass!
Thankfully, the ‘guru/teacher’ scene has evolved into a more equitable one, and the internet has put it all all under a microscope.
It is a new golden age of cult awareness, and the period from the 1960s to around 2010ish, cultured the vaccine for it.
All said, the old paradigm is a hydra-headed beast. Cut one head off and two more regrow, whether it’s NXIVM, Amma, Holy Hell, Teal Swan, Mooji etc
The toxic brew of narcissists, abusive dynamics, and sincere, but naive, uninformed followers, will always be there, I think.
So the anti-cult cult has to remain vigilant and shitpost!
Moreover, it’s as good entertainment as anything else, and closer to home.
That people are openly discussing and reflecting on these shenanigans, more open to scrutiny now than at any time in the past, must be a good thing, and a part of the awakening process, back to the – “be a joke unto yourself” – inner guru.
We also have an evolutionary negativity bias, which needs tempering, just as we also project a ‘golden shadow’ onto others, and we all suck in different ways.
If I was a short, balding, ageing, Indian guru dude in another life, surrounded by alluring hippie chicks, who knows what monkey business I’d get up to, given half the chance?!
Interesting take on things, Dominic. I’m not so familiar with the cult scene, basically Erin Robbins’ episode on ‘A Little Bit Culty’ was my first point of contact, but it’s been very interesting to listen to a few more episodes of that podcast. They do good work.
The thing is, cults always have a good side as well, that’s what draws you in. And if the cultic aspects such as ostracising ex-members are hidden at first, it’s easy to fall in with the wrong crowd.
Can you call the Sannyas movement a cult? Some aspects of it were a bit like that, while other aspects were a unique spiritual path which has given birth to some good things such as the Mystic Rose (still want to do it some day!) and the Path of Love.
I think cults/gurus exist on a spectrum, from a little bit culty to a lot, and also on a spectrum of positives and negatives.
A balanced attitude seems to be: Take what works for you, and throw the rest into the trash can.
One may have to go through a few spin cycles. Didn’t Erin get quite involved with Gangaji, which also got a bit culty, and had its own debacle?
What isn’t a cult? Does it need a guru or can it just be a belief system, like a family, a religion, a culture or political ideology? Non-duality disputes the most basic cult of all, that of a solid separate self.
We jumped from the frying pan of society’s cults into other more exotic frying pans in the cultiverse, while some fell into the fire.
We validate people like Erin who took risks in telling their story, by talking about it and raising awareness.
Everyone weighs things up differently, and true believers gonna keep on believing.
In the end, after many adventures, we all come back to ourselves alone, the prodigal son returns to the father’s house (the inner guru), and we bow down, forehead to the ground, and say thanks for everything – the good, the bad, the ugly – it made us who we are. We don’t know why we say that, we just do….
The question then seems to become: How do people avoid movements which are too culty while trying out the rest to see what suits them?
Assuming of course that one is looking to join. There are many ways to walk the spiritual path, and quite a few do not involve cults.
In the mid-to-late 70s an American psychic, Marshall Lever, was extremely popular in sannyasin and other circles in London for a few years, ‘chanelling’ a supposedly former Chinese sage, Chung Fu, answering all manner of personal questions put to him in quite lengthy individual sessions that were tape-recorded for the clients to take home.
I saw him and, like the experience of other people I knew, found his responses quite remarkable for the apparent knowledge about me and their general depth of insight, delivered with his eyes closed after very briefly catching a glimpse of me as I sat down in front of him. I lost the recordings, unfortunately, but I can still recall some of his comments and recommendations.
One of which was insisting that any communal situation should be subject to close scrutiny and to beware of unrealistic expectations as it was exceptionally difficult to create a successful spiritual commune, extremely rare, the most noteworthy instance having been one centuries ago where all the inhabitants were in silence so “there was no communication.”
Basically, his (or Chung Fu’s) point was that if you’re “balanced” you don’t need a community, and living in a community wasn’t necessarily the best means of achieving the required “balance”.
Amongst his advice I was puzzled as to why he recommended not ‘moving away from making money’ as that part of life didn’t seem all that significant back then, in fact, despite my habitual state of semi-poverty, I tended to regard it as an ‘inferior’ way of spending one’s time and energy. Later, of course, I realised he was spot on!
Marshall Lever disappeared from the London scene, returned to the States, and after a while I heard he’d said he’d lost the intimate connection he’d had with ‘Chung Fu’ and had given up that line of work.
Dominic says, “I think cults/gurus exist on a spectrum…”
Good comment and I agree wholeheartedly.
Dominic,
Yes! I wrote in some comment before that most of my business life’s jobs have been culty:
the banks for sure, a smaller company where a female manager plotted to kill the owner, two owner- managed companies with highly authoritarian bosses…and my birth family of course… with Sannyas the number of participants have been bigger.
My best time I had in the Mahasi meditation center in Rangoon. That was an orange cult, too. And teachers split later on to build their own meditation centres.
Most of all that I did not partake too much in the trash sides…
A lot of things happening outside and inside – and all of them passing away!
Keep on keeping on.
“that” is too much…
With regard to the spectrum of spiritual teachers I feel that Vishrant did well:
“I practised to catch the energy of Osho (and possibly others) in order to be able to be there myself.”
That seems very suitable to me, too, as it includes a lot of silence and inner focus.
I sat with a few teachers and actually practised the same approach: feel the vibe, the energy field, whatever. Intuition can get very sharp, there. Without any attachment to the scene.
Vishrant quote:
“At some point awareness took over – and it has remained like that ever since.”
What else to do then?
My music of the day:
Ry Cooder – ‘The Prodigal Son’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEUIZWyieAk
https://genius.com/Ry-cooder-the-prodigal-son-lyrics
Ahh.
I think for me the key in dealing with this affair was something I came across about gurus, that there is really only one guru, that all gurus are essentially the same guru. This came from the Vedas, and various people have spoken about it.
So if you go to another guru after your guru has died, that is not necessarily a bad thing. Neither is it a bad thing to carry just one guru’s photograph with you. There seems to be an inner guru as well, a guru who dwells within although he is rarely felt or seen.
It means you are able to relax about this. Your loyalty to Osho is not so important. It is more important that people are not cramped up inside about their chosen teacher, but that they are able to go with the flow without giving themselves a guilt complex that their teacher did such and such.
Everybody already knows DØVYDAS 1.38 mln. subscribers?
“I don’t know any stars! I fake everything! I even fake myself!”
Faking some “AC/DC”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnIJlSrmVBA&list=RDGMEM3vRVvLY6rn_98uxOr5tY5A&index=3
Whow!
I am only writing to point out that the “culty” or “sect” frame is very vague.
If the first indicates, in addition to the meaning of “educated”, the way of expressing the religious sentiment of a community, the second has only a quantitative meaning, referring to a part of a religious movement or institution that separates itself from its context of origin, for example, Jesus, a Jew, constituted a sect of Judaism which then became a much larger religious community than the original one.
Now, the decisive question, in my opinion, to understand if the “culty” frame is fitting, as far as our community is concerned, is to ask oneself if the things done to express one’s religious sentiment have been done with joy / celebration / devotion / playfulness / etc. or not. Erin says she wouldn’t do that kind of experience again, frank seems in tune with her, even for Lokesh, Scottish, it’s hard to swallow that cup of tea – but that’s enough to say that Osho was just an average Indian on the hunt for western tourists?
But even in this case (I personally think it unlikely, with all due respect for women and their seductive power) if his devotion to the vagina was so total, would it not be the sign of something authentic and original that explains how the community was energetically structured around Him?
Hi Veet Francesco,
As I am beginning to understand, cults as popularly understood have certain properties sects may not. Cults usually have a single charismatic leader, who holds absolute power in the organisation. Often new members are set the task of recruiting other new members through their friend networks, and cult members who leave are often ostracised from the community — it is made clear that they shouldn’t be communicated with anymore. See also ‘The Guru Papers’ by Joel Kramer.
The Oxford Dictionary defines a sect as “a religious group that has separated from a larger religion and is considered to have extreme or unusual beliefs or customs”, while a cult is defined there as “a religious group, often living together, whose beliefs are considered extreme or strange by many people.”
As to what Osho was or wasn’t, it’s really difficult to say. But by all reports quite numerous sexual encounters with female disciples, misuse of authority to arrange their compliance, secrecy, semi-pornographic love shows for his pleasure, not walking the talk as far as love and sex is concerned, all of that adds up to an excessive sexual appetite, hypocrisy and abuse, in my opinion.
In my opinion, the place of observation where the relationship between Disciple and Master occurs cannot be compared to the setting of a therapy session. In the second case it is clearer to establish who is the vulnerable one and who is the one to whom the vulnerable one turns for help.
If a Master were a professional therapist he would have only two possibilities in relating to the women he meets, a continuous paternalism for the wounds of the soul of others or a continuous sexual abuse. I believe that Osho’s great gift was showing us the possibility of taking responsibility for our lives, destroying any possibility of being able to cling for the rest of our lives even to the person we love most, in my case himself.
I mean the community as structure, ie people working in synchrony to spread his vision, which includes being “totaly wild, absolutly free”…Just an open Heart Is required.
Do you think that “totally wild, absolutely free” is still a worthwhile vision? I would ask, what about sensitivity for others, or letting go of attachments, or right speech…Osho brought a new flavour to the seventies and eighties, but I think there are a few things from modern buddhism that he might want to adopt.
‘Totally wild and absolutely free’ is a track from Miten and Premal:
https://youtu.be/VDB8_ug05TQ
NP, if you think that sannyasins are going to start adopting Buddhist principles and rules, well, forget it. The freedom that Osho gave sannyasins, free of dogma, such as the Buddhist dogmas, means that individual sannyasins are free to live the way they feel, adopt any type of religious or spiritual ideas, including Buddhist ones, if they so please, or not.
‘Zorba the Buddha’ is also still a very popular idea for many people. Of course, individual communes will need certain rules and agreements to function harmoniously, but exactly which agreements will be a matter for those individual communities to agree on.
Osho’s approach upsets the control freaks, but that’s just the way it is.
Hmm, I think you will find that some buddhist principles are universal, such as letting go of clinging and thus seeking an end to suffering.
Once you start with serious introspection and letting go of the things where clinging causes you to suffer, you end up approaching a freedom of the mind in which a lot of religious ideas no longer make sense, and a lot of emotional ideas do not either. There is a little more letting go, and then a little more, and so on.
Instead, what eventually does make sense is compassion, kindness and friendliness. You’ve let go of many things, and then you discover that this is what matters. You feel free and liberated, and from time to time encounter another block, where when you investigate you find some clinging that you haven’t yet let go of.
Osho’s approach still contains, in its very adherence to naturalness and not suppressing, an adherence to your impulses. If you do not tackle the roots of your desire, seeing what it was that sparked these desires in you in an honest way, you will not reach freedom from your impulses.
Nityaprem,
When I arrived at the ashram in the 70s, I was invited into an office and asked if I would marry someone (whom I was told did important work for Osho) so that she could stay in the country without visa issues as I held a British passport (a.k.a Immigration fraud). I wasn’t keen on the idea so I refused, even though I may have ingratiated myself with the ashram.
A request like this must have been with the tacit approval of Osho, so from those early days I have personal experience of his, hmm…let’s say, ‘moral anomalies’.
Osho from a zen perspective maybe: ‘Before enlightenment, abusing vulnerable women, after enlightenment, abusing vulnerable women’.
There seems to be an assumption that after: ‘Enlightenment!’, an experience which at best is inconsistently defined, you turn into a ‘paragon of virtue’. I propose there is evidence this assumption is flawed.
Why ‘before enlightenment’ and ‘after enlightenment’, Anubodh? Is there any proof that ‘enlightenment’ exists?
Satchit,
Declaring yourself as such, and having others believe you, seems to be the only proof required.
Maybe you could host a topic on the subject? And who knows? Perhaps with all the spiritual horsepower available from the contributors on SN (not Swamishanti’s) a proof could be derived!
Ok, Anubodh, new topic:
Title:
Is enlightenment an Indian appearance like the monsoon?
It seems the most enlightened beings happen in India. So the question arises: Why is this the case?
Is only India the soil for enlightenment? In other words: Does it belong to the Indian conditioning?
Why does enlightenment not happen in the West?
Some say one needs to declare enlightenment and find a few believers. Is it this easy?
So it seems there is no objective proof for enlightenment.
Some thoughts?
MOD:
Ok, we’ll make this another, separate topic, but it’ll have to wait for a while. So please keep any responses until then.
Sheesh, Anubodh…just imagine declaring yourself enlightened, the amount of trouble that would cause you. I suddenly feel a lot of sympathy for those enlightened people who choose to just live a simple life instead.
MOD:
A NEW ARTICLE is now up: ‘The Tombstone Exercise’: Have You Lived From the Heart?’ by Nityaprem.
But we’ll keep this lomg-running one going as well until it runs out of steam.
I do believe you are right there, Swami Anand Anubodh, it certainly looks like enlightenment doesn’t make one a paragon of virtue. In fact, it may be the opposite, that enlightenment sets you up for doing whatever is possible so that all your lusts will be fulfilled.
Nityaprem,
If you are still troubled about Erin, why not try to contact her directly?
She’s put herself into the public domain, so ask her if you should ‘cancel’ Osho or not. If you can’t find contact details or get no reply, at least you would have shown due diligence and stick with him.
I did get in touch with her, she sent a very sweet email back saying she hoped “the turmoil would eventually bring clarity and understanding.”
Of course her answer to the whole situation is not my answer. Which is perfectly fine. We all have our own ways of relating to Osho.
I reckon the thing to do is to just take some time off from looking at Sannyas and Osho. It will settle eventually.
How to recognize If the woman you wish to have sex with is vulnerable? And when she is not vulnerable why should she have sex Just with you?
Hi,
Fitting this thread I found an article on Christopher Titmuss’s blog, with the rather long title:
‘Guru Purnima. Full Moon of July.
A Day to Show Respect to One’s Spiritual Teacher(s).
Stay Mindful of any Darkness, or even a grey area, in Guru Devotion.
July 22, 2022 3:41 pm’
“As the years pass by, I hear more frequently from the Sangha, the language of Guru-ji. It is said to me, as far as I can tell, as a term of endearment. It might be said to try to wind me up!”
He discusses the traps and possible failings of adulation expressed by students to their respected teacher.
It is quite extensive as Christopher as a rule looks at as many aspects of a topic as possible. In a very calm manner. He had been a journalist before getting on the meditation train.
To me, Christopher is Christopher: an experienced, erudite, charming and very integer person, father of a daughter and grandfather of four.
I have much to learn from him. His teaching style is such that I rarely feel (a lot of) resistance to what he is conveying.
https://www.christophertitmussblog.org/guru-purnima-full-moon-of-july-a-day-to-show-respect-to-ones-spiritual-teachers
Cheers.