What happens when you meditate but don`t get enlightened?

Here`s something I would like to put to the readers and contributors of Sannyas News, who, whatever their path, their opinions, their experience and so on, I assume can at least be linked by one thing: that they meditate.

People in meditation circles bang on about the mind.
“You`re in your mind” has clear pejorative tones.
It`s a kind of new age sin. The trouble is, as has been the case with all human faculties and organs that have been declared sinful by religionists down the ages, we`ve all got one!
If you ask how to deal with this thing (or “think”), the experts will answer by saying things like: “You need the mind but it must be the servant but not the master.”
That`s an interesting metaphor, but how does this work? How to distinguish the master from the servant? How to identify them> Are they wearing different hats or uniforms or speak with different accents ,like characters out of “Upstairs Downstairs”?
How do you get the wonderful benefits of agriculture, modern building techniques, central heating, medicine, family planning, easy travel, surfing the net,blogging and a host of other mind-created things without sliding into the flipside and becoming the insane, neurotic, monkey-minded,unenlightened mind-fucking servant or even slave of the mind?
Well, you have to meditate, then you will go beyond the mind, then eventually you`ll become enlightened. That`s the standard answer.
But what about the unfortunate folks who haven`t made it to join the elite,the one-in-a-million or billion spiritual aristos who have slipped into no-mind and either literally or figuratively taken their seat on the podium, what about the lumpen proletariat of meditators,the rag-tag hoi polloi of breath-watchers who have bought the lottery ticket but their number hasn`t come up yet?
What kind of dream is that?
What happens when you meditate but you don`t get enlightened?

Swami Frank

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86 Responses to What happens when you meditate but don`t get enlightened?

  1. Arpana says:

    “What happens when you meditate but don`t get enlightened?”
    The stagnant pool becomes a permanently flowing watercourse, stream, river!!

    “People in meditation circles bang on about the mind.
    “You`re in your mind” has clear pejorative tones.”

    Those who meditate regularly, continually, don’t talk like that.
    That’s how people who’ve done a bit of meditating, stopped, and developed a big head about meditating, talk.
    (That’s how people who picked up a cricket ball once, then retired to the pavilion to throw rocks at the players, behave!!).

    Great post, Frank. ╭( ・ㅂ・)و

  2. shantam prem says:

    Enlightenment :
    Is it a new unisex G-spot?

  3. Parmartha says:

    Actually, Swami Frank,
    I think almost all punters here will have done some meditations or other, but whether they still do…many may say they just sit like me I guess!

    I suppose it is the old tussle between Ouspensky and Gurdjieff being echoed.

    Ouspensky had many more followers than Gurdjieff, operating out of London in the late twenties and thirties. An intellectual, and with apparently great intellectual appeal and over a thousand followers here in London alone, fighting to get into his talks. Hence a man rejoicing in the mind, and getting his followers to do so also.

    Gurdjieff had some twenty students in Paris at the time and as far as I can see, challenged them to go beyond the mind without getting rid of it!

    Of course, the two men were never reconciled. Ouspensky wrote that good book, ‘In Search Of The Miraculous’, about his early days with Gurdjieff, but it never reached public light until after both had died, which was Ouspensky’s intent as far as I recall. Ouspensky thought that Gurdjieff’s ‘Beelzebub’ book a travesty, and read only a few pages of it, and thought that Gurdjieff had ‘lost it’ after 1918 – not a view I share!

    But one cannot decry either man. Ouspensky was working with the mind, and clearly continued to suffer in the normal way, over-drinking and, I think, smoking, and even described as depressed before he died. But those thousand followers were much better squabbling about getting into his London meetings than, say, getting immersed in something like gambling, or concupiscence.

    Clearly, very few of them were up to crossing the channel, and clearly not just sitting with Gurdjieff but entering entire into his energy field. Much too dangerous!

    So I would say an interest in meditation, and trying it, is much better than a more narrow life; even if it does not lead to enlightenment it may lead to a more detached and addiction-free life.

    Of course, neither compare with living with a real Master within a Buddhafield, where formal meditation is not the main order of the day, by any means, and where the ego will be put under repeated attack.

  4. shantam prem says:

    Thanks God, Elon Musk kind of genius produced by the West don´t get trapped into the enlightenment game of Asian mystics.

    It is not satire or irony, I really mean what I have written.

    • satyadeva says:

      Shantam, I’ve no doubt you mean that, but apart from the Eastern person’s traditional fascination for the technology, inventions, industry of the West, I’m wondering to what extent this confident statement is unconsciously fuelled by your not having ‘made anything of yourself’ in ‘the world’.

      It reminds me of the ‘fan syndrome’, where people like ‘attaching’ themselves to the ones with great talent, fame, riches, power, as a compensation for not being able to attain such status themselves.

      I suppose such hero-worship or adulation is, on one level, healthier than condemning oneself to feeling ‘inferior’, depressed because relatively powerless, and no doubt it’s a comfort to bathe in the great one’s reflected glory, hoping some of it might somehow rub off on oneself – but that’s all a bit adolescent, even childish, isn’t it, not an ideal habit for a supposed ‘spiritual seeker’ (although some even view their master or teacher in a similar way)?

      Judging by your recent remarks you appear to have renounced that particular label in favour of letting “evolution” handle it all for you. Well, I suppose that’s one way of rationalising being totally ‘stuck’!?

      It might also be worth remembering that we only know of this man’s external achievements, of how clever, innovative, rich and powerful he is in business, but we don’t know anything significant of his private life, do we? Perhaps he might not be as impressive there.

      Not forgetting that he’ll end up like the rest of us, a corpse…If his culture (our western culture) had any sense he’d have been giving equal or more weight to his ‘inner life’, and if as successful there he might be someone worth revering.

      • shantam prem says:

        Satyadeva, have you made something in the world or in the otherworldly world? At least Barry Long ended up after many love affairs and leaving a name behind on the cover of many books.

        What about you, my friend? Will you leave behind some legacy of a sort?

        • satyadeva says:

          Typical of you, Shantam, that you choose to not respond to the points presented to you.

          Fyi, I’ve done ok in an ordinary way, thanks, and I don’t need to hero-worship or attach myself to some huge ‘success story’ in order to feel like ‘somebody’.

  5. Kavita says:

    Frank, good post.

    As for meditation, I would say I have stopped meditating since about 10 years or so, first the desire for any technique disappeared, then even the idea that I am sitting, even though I am physically sitting, disappeared.

    I would say that the master-servant game is quite inevitable in the world as well as the world beyond the world/no world, but I have seen for myself that this is interchangeable at times, there are are times when master becomes so dependent on the servant that the servant becomes the master & vice-versa too happens, but if they both become friendly with each other then the equation is equanimous.

    But this is entirely dependent on both parties and this can happen through some effort & sheer luck, but there is no fixed formula for it.

  6. satchit says:

    “What happens when you meditate but you don`t get enlightened?”

    You cannot meditate, meditation happens or something else happens to you.

    Who wants to get enlightened? Life is good as it is.

    • satyadeva says:

      “You cannot meditate, meditation happens or something else happens to you.”

      But you can at least prepare the ground, make space, eg by catharsis, practising awareness, making crucial life changes, and consciously entering your body.

      “Who wants to get enlightened? Life is good as it is.”

      Ok, always good to remember to feel the internal sense (not just to think) that life itself is good.

      But your remark might be taken to suggest that perhaps you’ve had a relatively easy life so far, Satchit. Is that correct? If so, let me know you still think this when tragedy or extreme misfortune strikes, eg you lose a limb, you develop a crippling disease, or a friend or family member is killed.

      • satchit says:

        “But you can at least prepare the ground, make space, eg by catharsis, practising awareness, making crucial life changes, and consciously entering your body.”

        Yes, if you think so that it is needed then you have to do it.

        “Perhaps you’ve had an easy life so far, Satchit? Let me know you still think this when tragedy or extreme misfortune strikes, eg you lose a limb, you develop a crippling disease, or a friend or family member is killed.”

        SD, seems you easily make a drama out of everything. Maybe you already fall into despair when your team (was it the Gunners?) have lost again?

        • satyadeva says:

          So, no straight answers to my second points. To which I conclude that yes, you’ve had a relatively stress-free life so far, and you think that’ll go on indefinitely. Dismissing anything a lot more challenging as “drama” – naive and shallow, Satchit, typical of someone who’s had it easy.

          (No, I don’t ‘mourn’ football results, that dropped away in my teens).

          • satchit says:

            Certainly I have stress in my life.

            When I say “life is good as it is” then it means I live with the stress, try to respond to it.

            ““drama” – naive and shallow, Satchit, typical of someone who’s had it easy.”

            Who has it easy in life? The rich boy?
            For me it’s illusion that one can have it easy in life.

    • shantam prem says:

      “You cannot meditate, meditation happens or something else happens to you.”
      This sentence seems like part of recorded new age talks in the brain cells.
      “Who wants to get enlightened? Life is good as it is.”
      This too is a clever interpretation of recorded talks where master/s tell, “Simply meditate. Don´t hanker about something unique. Be simple etc. etc.”

  7. shantam prem says:

    Satyadeva,

    Is it not worth an achievement that Shantam can raise the finger towards the organisational stuff operating in the name of late Jain Sir?

    In a way, my love and respect for people like me who trusted Osho and experimented with their lives is immense. I have always loved the stories of those adventurers who conquer or die in the process of useless adventures like being on top of the mountains.

    Osho was a life coach for never experimented spiritual adventures and I salute each and everyone who continued without going to other coaches.
    Just today I have written, it is not bad to get new master after the death of the previous one. What I find funny is, sleeping with some P, Q, R and calling the name O,O,O!

    Most of the nights I sleep with contentment, most of the days too I walk with head held high and some gratitude for my coach.

    I don´t expect Osho or anyone to be my saviour of any kind. This is enough a fruitful journey.

    • satyadeva says:

      “Is it not worth an achievement that Shantam can raise the finger towards the organisational stuff operating in the name of late Jain Sir?”

      No, not at all, Shantam, in fact I think it’s sheer bone-headed stupidity, a complete waste of time and energy that says more about you than about them.

      Good though that you seem relatively content, although I wonder where that would go if you stopped your anti-Resort campaigning, which seems to provide you with purpose and consequent self-esteem (however misplaced, imho).

    • Kavita says:

      “sleeping with some P, Q, R and calling the name O,O,O!”
      Guess only a pure virgin disciple/devotee can say this!

    • satyadeva says:

      “…it is not bad to get new master after the death of the previous one. What I find funny is, sleeping with some P, Q, R and calling the name O,O,O!”

      Ever occurred to you, Shantam, that it’s none of your or anyone else’s effing business what master(s) people choose to be with at any time?

  8. Levina says:

    I don’t think meditation gets me enlightened, it can give silence, peace of mind and beautiful experiences and a spiritual ego if I think that’s me.

    “Enlightenment” – I wish I’d never heard about it, it has become a burden, a dangling carrot never to be gotten. Better to just be with what is and give up all hope of a so-called enlightened future!

    It’s funny really that the mind wants the big E, because everything the mind wants is either in the past or future…and if Enlightennemento issa here now, how can little mind ever gettit?

    • Lokesh says:

      Levina states, “Everything the mind wants is either in the past or future.”

      Sounds like typical sannyas programming. If you sit down at a table and a friend asks if you would like an apple to eat, you use your mind to assess if the apple is edible, appealing etc. This takes place in the here and now, even though the mind has to refer to experience, past phenomena, to make its assessment. The calculations are made. Yes, says the mind, and you reach for the apple. It all happens in the moment. I’m not talking about instinct, which is another function entirely.

      I find spiritual people parrot too much about what they have heard about the mind and it has gotten a bad rap. Osho used his mind a lot and from that use he created much that is good.

      I recently visited a friend who has lost his mind. He lives in a care home. You think not having a mind is where it’s at? Go visit my friend, it would change your mind.

      The truth is that you are fucking lucky to have a mind, which makes it possible to read and interpret what I’ve just written. You don’t miss the water till the well runs dry. If you lose your mind you are fucked.

    • Kusum says:

      Just as a character in a movie seems to travel the world but never actually leaves the screen, so thought seems to travel into a past and a future but never actually leaves the NOW!

      • Lokesh says:

        One can only stand back and wonder where Kusum mines these pearls of wisdom. He never fails to astound me with his enlightening comments.

        • Kavita says:

          Lokie, he (Kusum) is thought itself, who travels the world & not only never leaves the screen but is also omnipresent!

          • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

            Good humour, Kavita…smile into the morning´s blue sky today here;
            little bit freezing, little bit cold, as it ought to be that time of the geosphere here.

            Your response is public, isn´t it?
            So – my smile to that is public too…AND for you….

            Madhu

  9. shantam prem says:

    Enlightenment?
    What are the synonyms of enlightenment?
    Here is one interesting link. Bloggers can spend few minutes over this.
    The page belongs to one of my high school friends, he is not even using the e word but the way he promotes himself it is not less than any neo- enlightened person in search for students and clients.
    https://www.facebook.com/StudentGulshanGawri/

    I think if anyone shows the photos and statements of those talking about their ‘E Point’ to any psychological institute, most probably they will be all grouped together under the title, Narcissism.

    • satyadeva says:

      My God, Shantam, not another one?! What sort of high school was that? Knowing everything that’s going to happen to you in advance? With the help of a password? Neo-psychic bah humbug nonsense, surely?

      Mind you, at least he’s providing it free for anyone who can’t afford it…Still, as your countryman Hurree Singh would say, the foolishness of it all is terrific!

  10. Parmartha says:

    Of meditation we can speak.

    I would say it is not wise to speak of enlightenment as even if it exists, us lot here have not experienced it!

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Of meditation we cannot speak, Parmartha. And even more so I´d say it´s obsolete to speak of ´enlightenment´.

      While it might be of some help, to overcome inner as well as outer obstacles re peace and silence issues, to share about our very own inner and outer obstacles.

      That´s happening here on this website; mostly and unfortunately in a less than more honest way, often camouflaged by a ‘guru-rating’ or something similar.

      Madhu

    • Kavita says:

      To me, the Big ‘E’ word in the sannyas world is more like the word ‘successful’ in the marketplace.

      Frankly, at times I do think I am enlightened! But more sooner than later I realize it’s just a deception and soon enough brush that thought aside & look at what needs my immediate attention, which is mostly a nap or a good night’s sleep!

  11. sw. veet (francesco) says:

    All the questions, if well formulated, describe a domain of reality that one wants to know in some specific aspect, but from the point of view of who formulates them.

    Answering a question is first of all to go back from the point of view to the ontology of those who formulate the question.

    In fact, the post-Babel Tower spirit, which sometimes even here prevents mutual understanding, in my opinion depends on not knowing the speaker, often because the speaker prefers to talk about others.

    Frank is not an Osho sannyasin, ie one who has internalised the point of view of the Master. I can only assume that unlike me he does not share the answers that the old guy has already given on the subject, I could not do better.

    • satyadeva says:

      Seems such a profoundly considered intellectual response. From someone who appears unable or unwilling to give straight answers to far simpler questions! (See ‘Osho Leela’ thread).

      • sw. veet (francesco) says:

        Seems such a simple question. From someone who seems unable or unwilling to recognize that a relationship exists between a question and a profoundly considered intellectual response.

        • satyadeva says:

          Ah, I see…You come across as someone who considers it ‘beneath’ you to give straight answers, requiring no complexities of language or pseudo-philosophical concepts, to very simple questions (ie ones where you can’t ‘show off’ your erudition).

          Looks rather like a preposterous attempt at ‘saving face. I’d thought you had more about you than that level of foolishness.

  12. shantam prem says:

    “What happens when you meditate but don`t get enlightened?” sounds like what happens when you play lottery and don´t win!

    Is there some record how many ‘dozens’ have become enlightened among billions of humans born and died?

  13. Lokesh says:

    I never think about enlightenment on a personal level. The whole idea of enlightenment that was touted by Osho, somewhere down the line, went out the window as far as I am concerned.

    Back in the ancient days of Poona One I can remember believing that enlightenment was something that was in reach, and thus I was led down the garden path, like a stubborn donkey following a carrot on a stick that was always just that wee bit out of reach.

    Osho served up a potpouri of meditation techniques that were in many ways radical for the time, and they certainly worked up to a point, bringing more space, peace and clarity into one’s life if you practised them earnestly. Ultimately, it was all about being a witness which, as it turns out, was a bit of an incomplete teaching.

    I have no need in my life today for cathartic meditation techniques. I use my mind every day on a creative level in the arts. I find if I use my mind in the right way, creatively, it does not cause me problems in my free time because it is very well established in my life that my mind is a tool to be worked with.

    If I need to make sense of some aspect of my life that is somehow not running smoothly I have plenty of instruction manuals on how to deal with whatever is coming up. Nisargadatta for cosmic profound level issues and Mr G, Mr O, for more practical level functioning of the mind.

    I rarely read anything by Osho, perhaps because I overdosed on him way back. Osho for me has become some kind of a milestone in my life, or perhaps the signpost that pointed me in the direction that I had to go to reach where I am today.

    I am purely selfish in dealing with my mind. If it serves to benefit me and what I am doing I entertain it. If it is not serving me I simply blank it.

    You can live a complete, fulfilled, satisfying, loving and enlightened life without ever bothering to think about enlightenment. Thinking about enlightenment is a ridiculous waste of energy. I don’t need to think about it because I know there is no benefit to be had by doing so.

  14. shantam prem says:

    Lokesh, in spite of all your clarity, there must be something more in the game, which, let us say, Rajneesh junior has MORE than you or me or million other sannyasins?

    What can be that?

    Maybe that is what Enlightenment can be. A state of self-confidence where you feel preaching is your vocation, other people sitting around you will be benefited by your presence and for this reason if they donate some money, it is ok.

    What is your take?

    • Lokesh says:

      Shantam, since ancient days people have always been looking for ‘more’, be it money, sex, power or spiritual values. Gurus usually set up shop catering to the latter. Some teachers are genuine, some are fake, and others are a mixture of both. The people attracted to them get what they deserve, in the sense that if they are stupid they will end up with someone who caters to the needs of stupid people, and vice versa.

      Whatever kind of guru it happens to be they somehow fulfil a much needed role in life, in the sense that people are inspired by them, no matter what form that inspiration takes. Somehow it usually works out, unless one happens to fall foul of an evil guru. Charles Manson being a prime example.

      We get attracted to gurus for many reason. For example, someone with a strong need for codependency might be attracted to a narcissistic and charismatic teacher. The list is endless.

      From experience I’d say that if you meet a teacher and money is being asked for in large amounts, move on. A real guru will have little need for an excess of money, because if they are the real deal they understand that material needs will always be taken care of. Of course, even a buddha has to eat and pay electric bills so no harm in a wee donation being handed over.

      Osho propagated the idea that people don’t appreciate anything unless they pay for it, especially in Swiss Francs. He had to say that because his set-up required big bags of cash to keep it running, plus somebody had to pay for all those watches and cars he thought he couldn’t do without. I think that was a load of bullshit. In the end he paid for it, because he drew too much of the wrong kind of attention to himself.

      Osho believed all publicity is good publicity. He probably read that somewhere and used the expression because it suited his purposes at the time. The truth is that a certain kind of publicity only serves to work against you. I could go on, but lunch is ready. It actually snowed on Ibiza this morning.

      • shantam prem says:

        Five stars, Lokesh.

        Somehow it is a pity, wise disciples of sannyasnews have no say in the organisational structure of Osho.

        I think world of spirituality in real terms will be enriched immensely when those disciples are around who can burn Buddha Statues yet bow down before the tree.

        • satyadeva says:

          Would you qualify as one of those “wise disciples of sannyasnews”, do you think, Shantam? I suspect you believe you would, as you rarely write of anything other than “the organisational structure of Osho” and how appalling it is.

          There’s no direct correlation, of course, between wisdom and the amount of words one expends on any given topic. I’m not sure you realise this.

          And btw, I may be wrong but I’d be most surprised if Lokesh would have any interest in such matters.

          • shantam prem says:

            While writing the above post, it was written, “Lokesh and Satyadeva kind may not have any interest in the organisational structure”, then I deleted the sentence.

            More or less we all know the mind-set of the people with whom we communicate.

            MOD:
            POST EDITED.

          • Lokesh says:

            SD says, “I’d be most surprised if Lokesh would have any interest in such matters.”
            So would I.

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        Your both morning contributions, Lokesh, are a quite earthbound read of considered posts re the issue(s) hidden. And I appreciate that.

        However, I´d like to add to your following lines:
        “We get attracted to gurus for many reasons. For example, someone with a strong need for codependency might be attracted to a narcissistic and charismatic teacher. The list is endless.”

        That we have been looking for affiliates, I´d say. Goethe called that ´Wahlverwandschaften´, we called it a Sangha in former times. For the time being.

        You have not been an exception to that. Up to these very days, I guess.

        Yet I simply don´t like it when such a very natural urge of looking for a ´belonging´, beyond the small family or nation or education we came from, meeting a Master as well as joining His Sangha of friends with a marked interest to grow and to share, is put in a corner of psycho-diagnostic sickness-labels like´codependency´ or similar issues…and that latter kind of ´list´ – mostly habituated in some vested interests or other – is meanwhile and unfortunately endless as well.

        Would like to add that to your considered long comment(s).

        Madhu

  15. shantam prem says:

    “Enlightenment” – This needs to be copyrighted and patented by the Neo-Sannyas Foundation.

    An hour ago, I was reading news where Pope Benedict has written a letter from his monastery about declining physical and mental energy and willingness and preparedness to go back home.

    As I know a bit from hearsay about Christian theology, virtuous people merge with God, but in the lifetime, declaring some kind of superior state is rarely heard of, whereas in Neo-Sannyas, enlightenment is touted as some kind of sprouting in the brain, oneness with the cosmos etc. etc.

    When Osho talks about His enlightenment or even beyond enlightenment, some kind of doubt does not arise but when my classmates and colleagues talk about their enlightenment, I feel kind of washing my hands and face. It feels some psycho-bluffing, the whole thing looks so childish.

    Anyway, for Indians I can understand it is very important. This is the only thing we can impress others about our presence.

    Since white women have become interested in e-spot, it has become even a better opportunity for bearded Indians to become enlightened and have control over the spoiled ladies.

  16. Kavita says:

    “…when my classmates and colleagues talk about their enlightenment, I feel kind of washing my hands and face. It feels some psycho-bluffing, the whole thing looks so childish.”

    I am wondering if probably that’s the reason most of Osho’s classmates & colleagues like you & the rest didn’t have the courage/need to come close to Osho after he declared his enlightenment. Probably that’s the human psyche?

    • shantam prem says:

      During commune days, looking at streets and people of Pune while on my bicycle and scooter, many times a feeling was coming, “Alas, Puneites know what kind of miracle Osho and his people are creating.”

      Once the property was stolen in a bloodless coup by two, three foreigners, close disciples, and Resort was erected, I started feeling a sigh of relief for millions of Pune people who cared a dime about Osho and his branded people.

      During my last stay in Pune few miles away from Koregaon Park, I was enjoying each and every face and wondering, “Have they missed something by simply ignoring “Oshoji and his people”.

      So instead of feeling pity for contemporaries of Osho I feel like saluting their pride and courage.

      It is ugly, very ugly, ridiculously ugly to think those who don´t follow some Jesus, Koran etc. etc. won´t have the salvation, therefore this attitude of pity and false compassion, “Let them come under the shelter and be the protected sheep.”

      • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

        I´m glad I spent hours of the day with the contributions of Robert Jay Lifton, an American Psychiatrist, who, for his long lifetime, was and is involved investigating fatal narcissistic as fascist, racist behaviours, cult mentalities etc – up to the numerous twitter account comments, viral or otherwise, from a Donald ….. – ‘tsunamis’ of mentally distorted people, who unfortunately came into power in contemporary as well as historical times.

        That said, I can only once again be wondering what kind of utter crap, signed with your name, is possible to happen here on a chat website SN/UK – Shantam Prem, aka Iqbal Singh, aka…algorhythms play….(?)

        Precarious times, as I’ve said quite often….

        Madhu

        • shantam prem says:

          Madhu, West is losing its character not because of Donald Trump kind but snowflakes.

          Historically, wherever people of the country get too much influenced by Buddhism, decline starts immediately.

          • Lokesh says:

            Shantam, what you say is untrue in relation to a number of Buddhist countries. Bhutan and Thailand come to mind. You have never visited either of those places so how can you be sure what you are claiming is true?

      • Kavita says:

        During commune days, looking at streets and people of Pune while on my bicycle and scooter, many times a feeling was coming, “Alas, Puneites know what kind of miracle Osho and his people are creating

        Once the property was stolen in a bloodless coup by two, three foreigners, close disciples, and Resort was erected, I started feeling a sigh of relief for millions of Pune people who cared a dime about Osho and his branded people.

        During my last stay in Pune few miles away from Koregaon Park, I was enjoying each and every face and wondering, “Have they missed something by simply ignoring “Oshoji and his people”.

        So this means that those “two, three foreigners” are responsible for bringing many of us back into our miracle-less life!

  17. Tan says:

    Swami Frank boy, just out of curiosity, what do you expect enlightenment will bring to you? Cheers!

  18. Bong says:

    You are all enlightened. But you must realise it. Staying realised is more fun than not. However becoming unenlightened once realised is impossible. Losing your enlightenment while unrealised would be like losing your soul. Difficult to say the least.

  19. samarpan says:

    “Don’t make enlightenment a desire; otherwise you will go on missing. What I suggest to you is, forget about enlightenment. It has nothing to do with you, you will never see it; it happens when you are not.

    When you have peeled the onion completely, when your ego evaporates, it is there. But you cannot say, “I have become enlightened.” The “I” is no more there – enlightenment is there.” (Osho, ‘From the False to the Truth’, Ch. 26)

  20. Prem says:

    Dear Frank,

    Thank you for your sincere and beautiful sharing.

    Meditation is an end into itself. If you meditate and feel good doing it – ‘feeling good’ is the goal.

    ‘Feeling good’ gets deeper and deeper as you meditate.

    It’s not a Himalaya peak distant goal, enlightenment, to reach. The question is: Are you enjoying mountain climbing?

    If you enjoy the ride, then it doesn’t matter when you reach the goal. You enjoy the walk so much…right now…

    Your question is like asking: “is there a point in having sex if you haven’t experienced orgasm?”

    Do you feel no pleasure inserting a penis into a vagina at all? Even if you have not experienced the big Orgasm.
    There must be some pleasure in it.

    If you enjoy the walk…then it becomes irrelevant when, because it is something in the future.

    “But what about the unfortunate folks who haven`t made it to join the elite,the one-in-a-million or billion spiritual aristos who have slipped into no-mind and either literally or figuratively taken their seat on the podium, what about the lumpen proletariat of meditators,the rag-tag hoi polloi of breath-watchers who have bought the lottery ticket but their number hasn`t come up yet?”

    You are really talking about yourself here.
    Not about other people.

    You are waiting for the goal in the future to happen, because you haven’t started to enjoy the ride.

    I’m doing all this…when will the result come.

    You have to learn to “enjoy” doing all this, and that is the reward in itself.

    I love your metaphor of the “proletariat” of meditators.

    It does not matter if you are an ordinary Joe or a big Kahuna. If you enjoy what you do – you are a king.

    There are many big Kahunas of the spiritual world, who are full of s–t, and their experiences are fake, just words. I can think of about 100 spiritual teachers off the top of my head who are like this. They fake it, and fake people are drawn to them.

    And I know a few “working class” people who do simple things and have learned to enjoy doing things with love that this is a reward in itself.

    I consider myself to be working class spirituality-wise, and my favourite people are working class.

    Humbleness is the greatest spiritual strength.

    Only proletarians get it, only proletarians get enlightened. Most enlightened people are uneducated: Ramana Maharshi, Ma Anandamayi, Neem Karoli Baba, Ramakrishna, Sai Baba of Shirdi.

    Very rarely, an intellectual person like Osho or Buddha get enlightened, but they need to do much more work than the average person.

    (I completely disregard the nutty Westerners who create satsang businesses).

  21. shantam prem says:

    Enlightenment: then?
    Is this the end?
    In the BA last year class, there was a poem by Aurobindo, ‘Is This The End?’
    Remembered it this morning in context of this string.
    https://www.aurobindo.ru/workings/sa/05/0070_e.htm

  22. shantam prem says:

    Who knows, Saddam Hussein too became ‘enlightened’ during the last years of his life. Does not he have shining and dignified aura under the worst circumstances of an extraordinary fall and humiliation?

    ‘Osho readers’ develop maximum fetish for this state and are expert in giving certificates, can you tell honestly by feeling the energy from the photos of Blair, Bush, Saddam, who looks more Serene and composed?

    Is it a prerequisite to be a monk or a master to be free from life and death which in a nutshell is an ultimate objective of enlightenment?

    Personally, I have never got identified with the word and world of enlightenment. My choice is an easy word, Spiritual Awakening.
    Spiritual Awakening seems more humane whereas enlightenment sounds like Entrepreneur.

    • satyadeva says:

      You’re too keen to suggest something ‘radical’, Shantam. You overestimate Saddam’s intelligence and underestimate his emotionally-driven ‘person’ or ‘self’, and everything that created it.

      Why dramatise how Saddam faced his inevitable fate by the term “enlightened”? He may have been a monstrous despot, sure, but he was a warrior, immensely strong and immensely proud, a man with total belief in his cause and no doubt utterly determined to face down his enemies till the very end, which was clear from his attitude in court.

      ‘Evil’ he may have been, but also in the end strikingly courageous, albeit much of that strength would have arisen from his beliefs about himself, about the nature of his purpose and about the (to him, utterly pernicious) forces he was fighting. Thus his final situation served to entrench such convictions rather than dissolve them.

      So, no “Spiritual Awakening” there (sorry about that, now you’ll have to dream up something else to entertain yourself!)….

      • shantam prem says:

        Well formulated, counter-balanced post.
        I acknowledge, SD, you are more spiritually awakened than me.

      • shantam prem says:

        “You’re too keen to suggest something ‘radical’, Shantam.”
        It is true. Am I not true follower of my guru?!

        • satyadeva says:

          Er, no, not if you’re just shooting off any old notion that happens to fly into your head. Trusting mere outer form without adequate content is one definition of stupidity, isn’t it?

          But perhaps I’m underestimating your powers of irony, Shantam…I have advised you to warn everyone of your intentions by creating a heading, ‘THIS POST IS MEANT TO BE IRONIC’, whenever appropriate – but you’ve stubbornly refused to follow such advice, leading to the most dreadful confusion….

          • shantam prem says:

            English is not my native language, but as much as I know, there is a difference between full stop (.) and exclamation mark (!). When prose ends with full stop, it means it is complete in itself. Exclamation mark, on the other hand, shows irony, satire and continuity of other feelings.

            Pundits are most of the time sign-blind. They can never deduce the intention and true meaning. They are so full with their pseudo-knowledge. (This is statement based on Osho´s influence!).

            • satyadeva says:

              Shantam, if you re-read the first sentence of the second paragraph of my previous post perhaps you might then grasp that I saw there was a possibility of irony in your post but I was uncertain whether this was your intention.

              Then if you re-read the rest of that paragraph you’ll find that I suggest this is because your posts often tend to be unclear in that respect (which, by the way, is not necessarily due to the presence or absence of an exclamation mark). This you yourself confirm by indicating, with typical vagueness, that not only irony but also “satire and continuity of other feelings” – whatever those might be! – might also be indicated by an exclamation mark.

              Please also re-read the last bit of my post (“but…the most dreadful confusion”) and see whether you can spot where I was coming from. A clue: A 5 letter word, beginning with i and ending in y.

              Assuming you get that, do you now see your last paragraph is irrelevant (unless applied to yourself)?

  23. satchit says:

    Lokesh thinks:

    “He [Osho] had to say that because his set-up required big bags of cash to keep it running, plus somebody had to pay for all those watches and cars he thought he couldn’t do without. I think that was a load of bullshit.”

    Question a) Do you think he lost his enlightenment because of all those watches and cars?

    And b) Maybe you think he was not enlightened at all?

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Won´t you just leave it, Satchit?

      Whatever Lokesh´s ´thinking´ (how you put it), especially about a time and a phase in the sannyas sangha he preferred, for his good reasons, not to be present, is quite irrelevant, I´d say, re ´enlightenment’ (thinking about) issues or ´not-enlightenment´ (thinking) issues.

      It´s kind of boring to follow reading some alpha-male (thoughts about) putting competitions on stuff like this.

      That´s why, btw, I loved Levina´s take…that was refreshing!

      To cope with the fact, individually and in our individual meditation-time, how all these ´big words´ (culturally uploaded with meanings since ancient times – as termini) – are are undergoing a deterioration processing and how we react to that, is in my eyes another matter (issue).

      And the question that came up in me for quite a long while since is:
      Are we yet able to live mentally and emotionally and spiritually amongst all fellow-travellers, without any crutches – so to say – instead of retarding to the need of going retrograde.

      And are we yet able to keep in contact as friends and supportive to each other amidst these changes?

      And how to find invitations to replace these inconceivably boring (often really weird appearing) competitions or power plays not unlike a “game of thrones”, by something one could call a more nourishing sharing?

      As such ´Alpha-Games´, as I call them, they appear to me as factional habits, mostly inviting destructiveness, sometimes hostility.

      Habits of a conditional ´thinking´…and not more, leaving you scattered instead of more whole or more integrated.

      Madhu

  24. satchit says:

    “And how to find invitations to replace these inconceivably boring (often really weird appearing) competitions or power plays not unlike a “game of thrones”, by something one could call a more nourishing sharing?”

    Okay Madhu, I give you something nourishing.

    What you call “boring” is in the eyes of the beholder, in your eyes.
    Also, what you call “Alpha-games” exists only in your mind, it’s your
    personal view, nothing more.

    Also your desire to want it different exists in your mind.

    Why don’t you witness your mind instead of complaining here?

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      You say, Satchit:
      “What you call “boring” is in the eyes of the beholder, in your eyes.”

      Yes, Satchit, true.

      And then, you add, Satchit:
      “Also, what you call “Alpha-games” exists only in your mind, it’s your personal view, nothing more.”

      No, Satchit, not true.

      So, simple as that.

      Madhu

  25. satchit says:

    “And then, you add, Satchit:
    “Also, what you call “Alpha-games” exists only in your mind, it’s your personal view, nothing more.”

    No, Satchit, not true.”

    Certainly it’s true, Madhu.

    When you judge something as “Alpha-games”, then you judge it as bad communication, you don’t mean it as neutral, do you?

    The “bad” is again in the eyes of the beholder, in your eyes.

    So simple is that.

    • madhu dagmar frantzen says:

      Nothing, Satchit, can be obviously done about your (now) self-righteous, repetitive approach, once again this morning (to have the ´last word´) re the matter, I presume; you preferred not to really read may former long response, or my later short conclusions about your reactions.

      And nothing can be done about that too, more so on a viral spot, a chat dedicated to relate (?) instead of dominate (?).

      Madhu